Making people feel welcome in mod-making

[buoyant crystal]

A thread as requested

[crimson kestrel]

neat

this thread just bricked my discord app

[buoyant crystal]

That's my plan

[spiral goblet]

discord moment

[fickle coral]

I have a question, if Curiosity will answer.

Why do you have to have an explicit example of what's wrong before you even try to do anything to fix it?

[buoyant crystal]

@formal frost at the end of the day, if people feel unwelcome here when they interact with you then that's an issue right? And unfortunately, plenty of those people (especially new users) once they are upset with you will not tell you, they'll just block you and potentially leave the server.

If you struggle to "put yourself in others shoes" then that's fine to admit that, but it means that's an opportunity for self improvement and maybe even worth speaking to a professional like a psychologist about how to understand that.

You're a smart guy, and it would be a shame to lose your knowledge from the channel but at the same time I have a responsibility to make sure everyone feels welcome, and I'm trying to do that by helping you instead of disciplining you.

[steel lantern]

An important point is that the literal words need not be hostile for the feeling/tone of them to be so; communication is more than just the words used and their definitions--connotations are reflected in not only words but entire phrases and sentence structures.

[formal frost]

It's "brutally honest" because I'm directly telling your about your attitude.
Is talking about each other's attitude something forbidden by the social rules? Is this another thing people do to make each other's lives harder?

[crimson kestrel]

generally people don't go "you're an asshole" to your face if they have any sense of respect

[rose hare]

i sympathize with you in that you're probably frustrated at not know what to change other than general feedback, but social norms and unwritten rules are very prevalent in general

[buoyant crystal]

Generally, when you are telling someone something about them is bad then yes, people generally get upset at that. It's a natural human reaction.

[formal frost]

Because I can't comply with "do IDK what". I can't read people's minds.

[buoyant crystal]

Maybe not upset enough to say something out loud but it can still feel upsetting

[steel lantern]

Talking about someone's identity and things that they may not be able to easily change risks emotional reflexes rather than calm discussion; when someone's self-perception conflicts with that of others, tensions are easily raised

[crimson kestrel]

putting that education to use

[fickle coral]

...are you incapable of problem solving on your own?

[rose hare]

that's a bit harsh I think

[fickle coral]

Maybe, but that's essentially what they said

[buoyant crystal]

Please do not be rude

[formal frost]

It's fine.

Gon't gang up on James.

[fickle coral]

I asked why not try. The answer was "Because I wasn't given instructions"

[steel lantern]

It's only fine [to you] because you don't see the hostility in it whether used against or by yourself

[buoyant crystal]

This 100%, James was hostile.

[fickle coral]

But like... that answer is completely and utterly unacceptable

[steel lantern]

indeed

[spiral goblet]

i just read the context and yeah sometimes other people who dont have the same mindset or arent aware of your personality dont really enjoy being insulted for a mistake

[buoyant crystal]

When I do something in the community, how do you think that I consider my actions before I do them? How do you think I might make sure that I don't upset people, or if I do, that the upset is minimized?

[formal frost]

I am capable. But I have no idea how to approach this completely unfamiliar territory on my own and the sources of the request make themselves unavailable for clarification.

[formal frost]

I have no idea.

[fickle coral]

That's not a reason to do nothing though?

[latent hazel]

#mod-dev-discussion message
This has the information you wanted though

[formal frost]

Do nothing vs do a thing at random? The effort involved is the reason.

[buoyant crystal]

Well that's something to consider right? Something to research perhaps. It's a really important life skill when it comes to human interaction.

[fickle coral]

Nobody is suggesting you do something random

[buoyant crystal]

When I consider how to deal with this situation, I'm not doing anything random. I also can't ask you every 5 minutes "Did that message land properly?"

[rose hare]

||(and if you overthink implicit rules in social situations, you get social anxiety)||

[buoyant crystal]

That is also important!

[formal frost]

There is no struggle. The idea is utterly alien to me. I have absolutely no clue what goes on in other people's heads. They are completely unpredictable as far as I'm concerned (that is, until I have seen enough of the person's interactions to extrapolate, but even that is surface level).

[buoyant crystal]

Well that's why I'm saying, this sounds like something a psychologist would help you with.

Because if it really feels like that, then that's a problem that if you got help with, things might drastically improve for you

There is no harm in getting professional help for something like this. I've had to get help for my anxiety and I even had my own therapist at one point when I was younger because I had huge communication issues.

[fickle coral]

Are you not seeing a pattern of what people don't like? It sounds like this has been a long-term problem, with enough instances to extrapolate something?

[buoyant crystal]

This isn't something that armchair internet denizens will be able to help you with if it is something that you fundamentally feel like you can't understand.

[craggy dune]

I just want to say thank you for hitting the nail on the head. I've been wondering where that's been coming from, and I've noticed this pattern, but never put it in such concise words. Idk what'll come from it, but I have gained knowledge, so again, thank you :)
(You don't even want to know how many scenarios I went through where this message right here could cause harm and I should (edit: not) send it)

[formal frost]

It does and I have already noticed that, and will try to keep it in mind.

[formal frost]

I don't think I can ask anyone that either (about my messages).

[buoyant crystal]

Sure, so I need to consider how I affect you when messaging you because if I was really rude towards you, you probably wouldn't want to be here getting talked down to or whatever right? And then I'd fail my goal at trying to fix this situation.

[formal frost]

What they have issue with is so nuanced (and comes up rarely enough to boot) that I would have to remember months of conversations verbatim to notice a pattern.

[fickle coral]

🤔

[formal frost]

Well, it's something in my attitude, tone etc. They can't even say what it is and they are the ones with the clear sight of it.

[buoyant crystal]

People can't always describe the finer details of why they are upset to you

That's part of reflecting on yourself and trying new ways of interacting to see what works.

[rose cloud]

It’s like asking someone how they learned to speak their native language to begin with

[buoyant crystal]

Trial and error

[formal frost]

Then is it fair to expect me to be able to describe why they are upset?

[rose cloud]

Most people don’t know linguistics, so they’re not going to be able to articulate exactly what the subtle rules of their language are

[buoyant crystal]

Actually, to be really honest. Not always no

[rose hare]

noted; what do you mean in the second part?

[buoyant crystal]

That's part of the trial and error, and also reflecting on what worked and what didn't.

[steel lantern]

People do not need to be chefs to find a taste objectionable, but they may need such experience to describe why

[spiral goblet]

i think something that might help is to remind yourself to be patient with others

[rose hare]

I feel like a clear set of guidelines would also help, even if they seen rather arbitrary

[craggy dune]

assuming by "second part" you mean the second paragraph in parenthesis, it's just an emphasis by showing an example of how anxiety affects how or if I send messages.

[rose hare]

ah

there's another theory where how much you feel drained after social interaction is directly correlated with how much you feel like you need to not be yourself

which, obviously, varies from person to person

[craggy dune]

sounds reasonable and applicable to me

[formal frost]

This seems like it's missing the point of my message. To rephrase within your analogy, is it fair to expect me be a chef for other people's palate?

[latent hazel]

Yes. You're not going to be cooking for yourself all the time if you're a chef

[formal frost]

So I put myself in that position when I respond to help. 🤔

(do I have to say the quick and obvious short-term fix?)

[steel lantern]

You put yourself in that position when you use linguistic structures that convey an expectation of others understanding you rather than questioning your own clarity

That includes understanding whether you're intending to demean them or actually wanting to help

A huge factor in all of this is the question of whether you feel good from actually helping someone, or feeling superior to them in some way

Can you say which of those it is?

[formal frost]

Certainly the former, never thought about the latter.

[steel lantern]

gotcha

Well, unfortunately it sounds like you want the latter when you use many of the implicitly expectant phrases you're familiar with

[latent hazel]

In that case, whenever someone gets upset, it's okay to swallow up some pride and take fault, regardless if it is yours or not.

[rose hare]

That doesn't seem like an unreasonable assessment

[steel lantern]

Part of the reason I make silly faces all the time is to compensate for the fact that otherwise I might sound too serious the same way

[rose hare]

It's obviously imperfect, but that's what communicating is for

[formal frost]

Sure, but that's unconstructive. It changes nothing, helps no one. I can accept that it's just the way things are that I offend people and stop caring about it. What is the value in that?

[latent hazel]

That message wasn't about that. I'll be honest, I don't entirely remember what I was trying to go for with that message, so I think I'll just stop

[rose cloud]

True enlightenment is to not have a sense of self and then you’re never burdened

[steel lantern]

That was a bit absolute in the other direction and probably confused the issue; it doesn't help to always take responsibility for everything, only the things that you can actually change--which is more narrow in the short term, and much wider in the longer term (relying on current habit selection vs. developing new habits which takes time)

Plus the whole communication two-way street thing

[steel lantern]

I followed and agreed (to an extent) on the first half but then in the second it seemed like you were defending not caring about how others feel... :/

[latent hazel]

I know I forgot to say it, but I didn't mean to always do it. It can help sometimes in a situation, but like I said before, I don't remember where I was going with that message

[formal frost]

I'm asking in the end what's the value in doing the previous sentence. No idea how else you can interpret it.

[steel lantern]

The "that" could have been about caring rather than stopping caring; I'm not sure which is a more likely interpretation but I can see both

[formal frost]

I can kind of see that, but the phrasing is too wrong for it to be plausible, IMO.

But then I'm not a native speaker, I guess 🤷

[steel lantern]

I'm kind of wondering if the cutting pointed language is so far removed from what you intend that you do not see how it can mean more than you want it to

Unfortunately tone like that really has to be learned by hearing it--or at least it is much easier that way

[latent hazel]

English isn't your native language? Ya know, I never really noticed that

[formal frost]

I would have hoped the lack of spelling errors would tell you that.

[steel lantern]

I'll just point out it is my first language :P

[formal frost]

Speaking of telling people things, is it just me or is this a weird thing to say?

[steel lantern]

If by weird you mean ambiguous without context, yeah

[crimson kestrel]

english isn't my first language as I have no intention of having a second, although body language is up there

[formal frost]

Just seems weirdly insistent, though if I were to guess, Pyro was trying to be positive/supportive (what some people have brought up about phrasing earlier). But to me it just looks wrong, stating with confidence something there's no evidence about.

[latent hazel]

Body language is still language

[formal frost]

That doesn't make sense to me. Do you mean that English is your first language?

[crimson kestrel]

english is my only language

it being "first" implies there's a second

[formal frost]

You said "isn't", which got me confused.

[crimson kestrel]

sorry about that

joke could have been delivered a little better

[latent hazel]

Not exactly. I use the phrase "It's my first, and my last, <thing>" all the time

[formal frost]

First and only 😛

[latent hazel]

If a list has only one item, it still has a first in it

[crimson kestrel]

english is my main string[] args

oh come on, that doesn't get a reaction?

well it is java, I guess that's appropriate

[latent hazel]

C# does that, too

[crimson kestrel]

micestro chill with the reactions lol

[tawdry iris]

alright 🧊

[crimson kestrel]

oh my god

[tawdry iris]

alright, so i spent literally four days thinking about this.

i'm going to summarize quite a bit for a lot of reasons ||can't afford nitro lol||, but the general point should stay semi-reasonable.
this is going to be a general help quo as opposed to a factorio specific guide, but also contains some gripes i've found with external tutorials throughout the years.

-the first time you do something, it's going to go wrong in some way, if not, the second. expect this.
-"no" is generally a bad statement to say to someone trying to learn. "you can't do this/put that there, but you can do this instead" is generally a better route.
-coding specific - it can be very easy to mix up statements, especially when there are use case specifics. "if" statements are the same in concept as "balloon" statements, but i can't use an "if" statement everywhere due to order.
-side comments aside. it breaks focus, and is unimportant to whatever you're doing. i've sat in unrelated vcs before and vented while giving help before, but letting anger out on anyone i'm helping does nothing but not solve their issue, and get both participants angrier.

[formal frost]

-coding specific - it can be very easy to mix up statements, especially when there are use case specifics. "if" statements are the same in concept as "balloon" statements, but i can't use an "if" statement everywhere due to order.
That sounds like misinterpretation of the syntax.

[tawdry iris]

how should i know immediately, if i haven't coded anything like this before

[formal frost]

Have you coded anything at all before?

[tawdry iris]

physical robots for a class, that only ever used sequential lines of code that contained "if" statements

[formal frost]

-side comments aside. it breaks focus, and is unimportant to whatever you're doing. i've sat in unrelated vcs before and vented while giving help before, but letting anger out on anyone i'm helping does nothing but not solve their issue, and get both participants angrier.
Surely you aren't saying that after you have deleted your entire side of the conversation is "while giving help"? I think it was far beyond "giving help" after that.

[tawdry iris]

i saw the conversation turning from help into insulting my coding knowledge, and you cannot continue a conversation if half of it is deleted, which prevents the situation from escalating further.

[formal frost]

Oh, you can. I could if I actually wanted to insult you. So you have presented yourself as a malicious and untrustworthy person for nothing.

[latent hazel]

You kinda did insult though

[formal frost]

Never said anything about that.

[craggy dune]

For the record the last 2 messages from curiosity were after micro started deleting messages. For those who were not there for the conversation as it was happening. Not trying to say anything with this other than providing more context as it seems potentially good to know.

[formal frost]

He was pretty quick. IDK if I managed to get one message in before he was done. Me calling him griefer was already after the fact.

[buoyant crystal]

Please remember to keep this conversation civil and avoid insulting each other here or there will be timeouts.

[balmy dust]

I think this message exactly demonstrates the reason we're in this thread.

Your first response to the message was simply to state Mice-stro was wrong, which lends towards the attitude of your following messages that seem like your attempting to belittle them.

[formal frost]

How is stating something is wrong related to belittling the author?

[rose cloud]

You completely ignored the intent of the message as trying to explain how to help without coming across as rude and jumped straight to picking apart a specific example as to how someone new to coding might be confused

The point of that message was to give some perspective on how someone new feels when you do certain things, and you did exactly one of those things immediately after instead of actually reading what the message was about

[formal frost]

I read it. I had nothing to say about the first two points.

The last two seem to also be related to the particular situation.

[rose cloud]

It was a side comment

[formal frost]

What exactly do you mean by "side comment"?

[latent hazel]

The problem with "That sounds like misinterpretation of the syntax." is that there's nothing in there about trying to fix the problem. For new users, they probably don't know the syntax, so it's like telling someone who's new to rails "You don't know how rail signals work". It doesn't do anything to actually help

[rose cloud]

pretty much what I was going to say

[formal frost]

The original statement was very vague, there's nothing specific to address in it and I'm not going to explain the entirety of basic programming and don't think that sending him to read the manual would help. So I let him do his own research.

[crimson kestrel]

nobody is asking you to explain the entirety of basic programming, that's a bit of a stretch

[tawdry iris]

i wasn't asking for you to explain the entirity of programming, i was asking "how do i make this work here" while having 99% of the rest of the code assembled.

[latent hazel]

Also, "misinterpretation" specifically implies the error is due to the user. Whether or not that is true is pretty irrelevant.
If I were to suggest a different way to reply to that, I'd say "That sounds like the syntax isn't correct." and then follow it up by either "Can I see a snippit of the code?", or presenting an example of what is correct if the code is already visible

[formal frost]

Going about how that statement is wrong and what more constructive I could have said.

[formal frost]

The error is due to the user. The user is the one comprehending and using the rules of the language.

[latent hazel]

But telling them it's their fault won't change anything

Everyone has lapses of judgements at times. We're all human. We all make mistakes. Saying that it's your fault isn't going to magically make them think "Doy! Of course it's my fault. Lemme just become a perfect human with omnipotent knowledge and just fix it."

[rose cloud]

How do you feel when someone points obvious things to you constantly?

Most people I'd wager would say it makes them feel like the other person thinks they're stupid, why else would they be pointing out something obvious?

[formal frost]

Well, I had long given up on trying to guess what other people think. I'd probably think it's annoying or ignore it.

Or tell them about how they always point out the obvious stuff.

[latent hazel]

They would find it annoying, yes

It's why some sections of tutorials (especially "WASD to move!") are annoying to most gamers,, because we don't want to be re-fed information we already know

[formal frost]

Well, I have no way of knowing what the other person knows or thinks.

[fickle coral]

That's beside the point

[tawdry iris]

ask

[rose cloud]

We're telling you right now what people think when you say particular things, that's your way of knowing

[tawdry iris]

the reason why i asked was because i didn't know, as well.

[rose cloud]

Dismissing everything we've been saying as "I have no way of knowing" is disheartening

[fickle coral]

Not having the perfect solution is not a reason to try no solution.

Also ignoring viable solutions is not how you go about this.

[latent hazel]

"Knowing what people think" Is just a collection of interactions you've had and how you see people respond when you/someone else does something + a little bit of logical conclusion

[formal frost]

That's knowing how they act.

[latent hazel]

Acting in many cases is also thinking

[rose cloud]

Acting is the result of thought

[formal frost]

People generally conceal their thoughts and opinions.

[rose cloud]

So you're just going to ignore every time they don't?

like now?

[formal frost]

I'm not ignoring you.

[latent hazel]

You already demonstrated that you can understand what other people think without them explicitly telling you. It's just up to you to take in more behavioral information and connect the dots of how actions can cause reactions

[crimson kestrel]

on a side note, I do want to point out that curiosity always ends his messages with a period, which some people interpret as harshness

https://youtu.be/fS4X1JfX6_Q

[latent hazel]

If someone becomes upset after talking with you, there's obviously something within that discussion that they didn't like. You can logically deduce which ones might be, and which ones aren't. Eventually it'll just become intuition. We can help you, but you'd need to help us help you.

[formal frost]

I also start my messages with a capital letter, like any proper sentence.

[rose cloud]

That might be part of it for some people, but that's not the majority of it

[formal frost]

||(and it's not always, just vast majority of the time)||

[crimson kestrel]

capital letters aren't really that big of a deal

Capital letters aren't really that big of a deal

same tone, same sentence ^

[latent hazel]

Mods, there's spam

(I hope I didn't trigger highlight bot)

[crimson kestrel]

periods are optional

periods are optional.

[valid flower]

not really spam, just a example

[crimson kestrel]

we know, it was a joke

[crimson kestrel]

personally, these two sentences have different tone

[latent hazel]

To me, they're the same

[valid flower]

everyone takes it differently lol

[latent hazel]

We literally just had a discussion of obvious statements, ironically

[valid flower]

lol

[formal frost]

Generally, I don't even have information about which discussions with me upset people.

[crimson kestrel]

if I went

I hate you.
you would almost 100% take me seriously right

[latent hazel]

That's why you refine the information, which is is literally written in that same message

[crimson kestrel]

but if I go

I hate you
it's much less serious sounding, and in my case I would be joking saying this

[valid flower]

yeah, I personally find a difference in the two

[formal frost]

No difference to me, Code.

[fickle coral]

https://tenor.com/view/i-hate-you-anakin-star-wars-gif-10358450

[valid flower]

again everyone has different opinions on it

[crimson kestrel]

which is exactly what I'm trying to prove

[latent hazel]

I'll accept a Star Wars gif

I don't think the problem is punctuation related, Code

It's more-so the overall sentences themselves

[crimson kestrel]

it's not the main problem, I just wanted to call attention to it

it doesn't help, is all I'm trying to say

[formal frost]

How can I logically deduce? Based on what? On lack of any indication except the mods coming down on me two months later telling me that I upset people in general?

[latent hazel]

I feel it's leading the path astray

[crimson kestrel]

not telling you to change your punctuation curiosity, but I felt like it was worth noting

[latent hazel]

You're still looking too generically. If you're looking for a bolt, you won't see it by looking at the entire building

[formal frost]

How did I demonstrate that? 🤔

[latent hazel]

Max asks "How do you feel when someone points obvious things to you constantly?"
You respond "I'd probably think it's annoying"

Of course, that's just an example of putting yourself in other's shoes

The entire idea behind "putting yourself in other's shoes" is literally just imagining if someone did something to you, which is the scenario Max framed

[formal frost]

No, it's an example of putting myself into my own shoes.

[latent hazel]

And it still works out, right?

[formal frost]

Maybe 🤷

[latent hazel]

It does

[formal frost]

Well, I'm not always sure, like with the above example.

[latent hazel]

Sure, in many ways we're all different, but we're all still homo sapiens. We all act extremely alike in many ways

[crimson kestrel]

we all have similar feet

[latent hazel]

Sure, there's differences that can cause behavioral differences, but I hypothesize there's only two main differences: Lack of knowledge, and trauma. There's not much you can do about the latter, but you can easily fix the former

[formal frost]

Other people are kind of beyond comprehension.

[crimson kestrel]

I comprehend people on the daily

[formal frost]

Glad for you.

[latent hazel]

So, let's put this into a more realistic scenario: Would you like it if I told you it was your fault that you don't know how to utilize DLLs in Java?

Presuming you just asked how to use SDL2 under Java

[formal frost]

Well, I sure haven't done anything to find out.

[latent hazel]

You would find it annoying though, right?

[formal frost]

When I did absolutely no research? I would find it just, to be honest.

[latent hazel]

It would be easier for me to say "You just insert <tiny code snippet> " and call it a day, but instead go on about how you really should be doing some of this yourself

Coding can be hard, especially when there's a lot of incorrect/misleading/incomplete/outdated information on the internet about it

It would be easier to ask a simple question about it to people who you would find to be experts. Afterall, it is indeed simply a help channel

In that case, you probably would be annoyed

In that case, that's the situation many others are in. I've been there as well

In fact, it caused me significant disdain and ultimately I've left communities that I wasn't that interested in specifically for that behavior

[formal frost]

Hmm... imagine that every day a new person comes to you and asks you the same trivial question. Imagine that every person that came before keeps asking you another trivial question every day. Would you want them to learn to learn or would you try to keep answering them all?

[latent hazel]

I would answer them, because I'm not dealing with User12 every day. I'm dealing with different users every day

Hopefully, I can get through to them in a way that causes them to do what I do as well, making my job as a helper easier

And if you're tired of helping at that point, you don't have to. You can just spend some time doing something else.

[formal frost]

How does giving them the solution for their trivial question incentivize them to start doing wha you do?

[latent hazel]

A roadblock is a roadblock. To some, it's something as small as a rock. To others, it may be a tree. Either way, telling them to turn around isn't going to help them down the street

[fickle coral]

You could just not answer, and let someone else do it.

[latent hazel]

If you find they're asking for help for every small rock, then maybe it is time to tell them "Look, we can't hold your hand for everything"

[rose cloud]

It's perfectly fine to do that, yes

It's problematic when that's the first thing you do

[formal frost]

That's what I said, but people had a weird reaction to it 🤷

[latent hazel]

We don't want to decentivize people to help. Preferrably, we'd like people who want to help to still be able to help

[fickle coral]

People had a weird reaction to the idea that you just stop helping at all

That is not what I suggested there.

[latent hazel]

To be fair, James, it did actually sound like that to me

[formal frost]

Well, you have to start somewhere.

[fickle coral]

If you don't want to answer trivial questions, just don't.

[latent hazel]

I guess what I'm trying to get at, is that you might have to change your frame of mind to answer trivial questions, I guess?

[formal frost]

And the first step is to just stop.

[latent hazel]

Another option is trying to figure out why the same trivial question keeps popping up, and change specifically that so that people generally don't need to come and ask for said trivial help

I mean, it worked for Oil Processing

[tawdry iris]

pinned messages typically solve this problem

[rose cloud]

The faq's as well

[latent hazel]

I mean, sure, you can do +faq, or have a guide, but why have a guide when you could just make things more intuitive/simpler to start off with?

Which I'm sure was the entire point of the Oil changes back in... .16?

[formal frost]

But why would people read a FAQ or a guide when they can just ask?

And you are stuck answering the same questions.

[tawdry iris]

because if you're not going to answer it, they're going to go to the next best thing

[latent hazel]

You don't know what +faq is here?

[crimson kestrel]

they don't know the faq exists

we do

instead of explaining it to people countless times, we call a faq up

[latent hazel]

I mean, I guess Modmaking doesn't utilize +faq at all

[crimson kestrel]

it's called "frequently asked questions" for a reason, because they're frequently asked, and if we had to explain to people every time someone asked why their fluid wagon wasn't lining up with the pump, it's much less convenient than just going +faq railpump

[rose cloud]

there's a few, actually

[latent hazel]

Are they used at all there?

[balmy dust]

I've never seen it that way, as I also always have a period on mine.

[rose cloud]

and then you just point them to the pins or dump the faq on them

[crimson kestrel]

generally the people who end their online messages with a period don't see it that way

[fickle coral]

You're wrong.

[formal frost]

And they don't read it anyway 😄

[latent hazel]

I don't end my messages with a period, and I don't see it that way

[crimson kestrel]

generally

[rose cloud]

and then that's when it's okay to be frustrated with them

[fickle coral]

At that point, it's their problem.

And that's also not an excuse to avoid using it. Please don't use it as one.

[crimson kestrel]

if you didn't watch the tom scott video, I definitely recommend it because he explains it really well

everyone perceives things differently

[latent hazel]

Out of the numerous amounts of people I've seen who I've pointed towards the Comprehensive Guide to Rail Signals, only a couple of them haven't read it. And that was more about them wanting their hand held through everything

[rose cloud]

If they refuse to read the pins/faq, then you can say "the pins are there to cover what you're asking, it's frustrating to repeat things that are there when we've already asked you to read them"

[formal frost]

That's incredible success 🤔

[rose cloud]

The key thing there being you're also expressing frustration by saying how you feel, not declaring anything about the other person

[formal frost]

Oh, but what would you do when they don't know what pins are? 🤔

[latent hazel]

Because people aren't averse to FAQs and Guides. They're averse to bad FAQs and Guides

[rose cloud]

tell them?

[latent hazel]

"What do I do with X"
"It's in the pins"

[balmy dust]

This could literally be someone who just picked up the game, went to reddit, and installed Discord within the first hour..

[formal frost]

There was at some point multiple consecultive (or close enough) people who didn't know what pins are.

[rose cloud]

At that point it's willfully being an asshole to new people if you're going to condescend to them about not knowing what the pins are

[formal frost]

In my experience people are averse to anything that doesn't immediately answer their question.

[balmy dust]

#quick-questions

[crimson kestrel]

the pins aren't as helpful as a faq embed because half the time the person doesn't know what they're looking for

[balmy dust]

Literally no one is asking you to hold every single person by the hand on every topic..

What it comes down to for new users for anything.. You don't know what you don't know.

[rose cloud]

It's just as easy to use the pins to grab the link to the message itself and say "This should help: <link>"

[crimson kestrel]

that's usually what I do

but going "it's in the pins" without any elaboration is probably not a good idea, not that I'm saying anyone here does that

[latent hazel]

I sometimes do that.

[crimson kestrel]

>:( bad

[latent hazel]

To both

[craggy dune]

This is an assessment of other people and how they think and how they react. This shows you are capable of doing as such.
Fun fact: this message can be seen as condescending if the receiving party is already aware of this fact and believes I'm merely pointing out the obvious. I'm noting this to point out that I'm aware of it and to say that that is not my intention, which - again fun fact - is kind of a lazy way of making sure not to be misunderstood

[balmy dust]

No reason to go into it, unless it's a follow up question.

[rose cloud]

If someone is asking for general modding help, then I definitely just say "it's in the pins"

[latent hazel]

I don't just say "It's in the pins", I say "In the pins you'll find the Comprehensive Guid to Rail Signals"

AFAIK, only once someone got that mixed up with the wiki signal tutorial

Which is a fine error rate if you ask me

[formal frost]

It's not an assesment of anything. It's simple statistical data.

[fickle coral]

sigh

[balmy dust]

I take for granted the number of people here who I assume have had Discord before :today:.

[formal frost]

(although I don't entirely exclude bias)

[latent hazel]

Sure, it's simple statistical data, but that's exactly what your brain is doing to train itself for social behavior

[rose cloud]

(brains really are pretty close to stupidly complicated neural nets if you use them well)

[latent hazel]

Brains are analog neural networks. You can't change my mind

[fickle coral]

grabs scalpel

[rose cloud]

I generally use the term "organic computers"

[formal frost]

Sure doesn't seem that's what most people do.

[latent hazel]

Back away from my head

[crimson kestrel]

analog neural networks are analog neural networks

I'm just a meat servo

[fickle coral]

But it needs attention!

[formal frost]

(and there's a saying, "every generalization is a lie")

[tawdry iris]

"every generalization is a lie" paradox lol

[latent hazel]

People live different lives. There's always exceptions, but in general, you will find that if you hit someone, they won't like it

[fickle coral]

OwO?

[formal frost]

No, the saying itself is a generalization. So no paradox.

[tawdry iris]

but then it's not a lie

[latent hazel]

"This statement is false" is another way to say that

It's a paradox :P

[formal frost]

No, another way would be "every statement is false". And the complementary statement is not "every statement is true".

[crimson kestrel]

every statement is false =>
not every statement is false =>
this statement may or may not be true =>
Schrödinger's statement

[formal frost]

Oh yeah, about this video. I use question marks to indicate when I'm unsure (in addition to normal usage). Been told people find it offensive.

(and according to that video ellipsis is aggressive, lol)

[crimson kestrel]

punctuation in general is weird on social media

[formal frost]

Been told people find it offensive.
(told here on this server, I mean)

[crimson kestrel]

I believe discord qualifies as social media

[latent hazel]

Depends for me.
I can see ??? as a bit offensive, as to me it's more like saying "I'm astonished and confused that you said something so wildly crazy"
When I'm unsure, I do (?) like so: "The Lakers and Globetrotters are known to have been good baseball (?) teams"
(Btw, I do know that those are basketball teams lmao)

[steel lantern]

I've often felt that "..." on its own is more of a "That seems so unexpectedly stupid I don't know how to respond." despite knowing some people who do use it neutrally. I defend seeing it as aggressive because one could just as easily wait to give feedback after the initial confusion wears off--or, on Discord, use a thinking reaction instead

[latent hazel]

Alone, ..., ???, and !!! all kinda have this "astounding" feel to it, but each are negative for a different reason

[steel lantern]

I guess realistically the line between aggressive/offensive and defensive is blurred there..I know I've used it before, but it's always to express discomfort rather than "hold on a sec..." which is more neutral

[latent hazel]

Ya see, that case in "hold on a sec" implies that the speaker has more they want to say, but needs more time to say it

Or needs more info

It's a lead to a resolution rather than a mystery

[steel lantern]

@formal frostA summary of all of this thread comes to mind, though I may not fully capture the spirit of things.
Hostile: Your lack of awareness frustrates me, and you should feel bad.
Negative: Your lack of awareness is lazy; let me tell you just how lazy it is.
Neutral: Your lack of awareness confuses me, and I'm not going to say anything to confuse you too.
Curious: Your lack of awareness is unknown to me, and I want to understand it.
Encouraging: Your lack of awareness is temporary, and here's what you can do to change it.
Welcoming: Your lack of awareness is refreshing, and I welcome a new perspective.

We want to avoid the hostile/negative--until such time that a new user has demonstrated they are an informational or emotional black hole, at which point you should get moderation involved if their impact on the channel starts to tax others and we need to provide:

Moderating: Your lack of awareness is frustrating to many, and you have not demonstrated a willingness to change it.

Other people can say that sort of moderating perspective, but it's very easy to slip into hostile/negative instead, so there's no shame in calling for a moderator in such cases.

[crimson kestrel]

my dad is one of the people who end almost every single text with an ellipses, so I often get texts like

I'm here...

[latent hazel]

Who are you...

[dusk silo]

It is true. Every generalisation is, in some specific cases a lie. If they weren't they would be facts instead. Generally however, they are extremely useful shortcuts for brains to quickly deduce information about situations and people.

There is some danger in leaving those assumptions unchecked for too long though, so being aware of the assumptions you've made about others and being prepared to adapt them is important (and far too few people are good at this)

[formal frost]

Here's an example of usage: #mod-dev-discussion message

[rose cloud]

Question marks alone aren’t ever hostile, it depends on the sentence they’re attached to

[formal frost]

Well, that's what I recall being told 🤷

On an unrelated topic, does Discord search work on threads?

[rose cloud]

I wouldn’t worry about them much, I don’t recall it ever being an issue

Threads you’re in, I believe

[formal frost]

But you can't search in a thread, can you?

[rose cloud]

I imagine you could use the channel id to make a link, can’t test because that doesn’t work on mobile

[#952387778006614036](/guild/139677590393716737/channel/952387778006614036/) I think

[formal frost]

I tried channel ID before, it didn't work.

[formal frost]

Wherever it was, I can't find it anymore 🤷

[dusk silo]

You can't search in threads specifically, it just gets grouped under the channel the thread is in. So to search here you have to do in:#mod-making

[tawdry iris]

it's weird because you can actually grab the data tag and it's different. 306402592265732098 is mod making, 952387778006614036 is this chat