Message deletion reasoning | Factorio | Page 1

oblique pollen Oct 31, 2021, 9:11 PM

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I want to explain why I deleted the message:
I referenced internal documentation for its content. When I realised that the documentation does not match the current state, I removed the content out of an abundance of caution, in case the internal docs were of a newer version than public. (This is not actually the case, but checking that takes longer than covering my ass by removing the message as soon as possible.)
I think that from the context, it's clear what the rough content was. Since this is not a forum with reach to search engines etc, it is not important to me that the chatlog is 100% clear, when context is enough to gleam "something that didn't work was deleted here".

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 9:18 PM

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It disrupts the reading of the conversation. You could have done as little as changed the message content to "deleted" and it would have already been an improvement.

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 9:19 PM

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Just as one might not always think to call for a moderator, one might not always think to take the extra time to modify rather than delete when there's a sense of urgency

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Defining reasonable expectations is an endless negotiation of give and take in which it's important to consider the constraints of others as well

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 9:24 PM

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oblique pollen I want to explain why I deleted the message: I referenced internal documentation...

I do think Curi has a reasonable request in the general sense, even as I emphasize the expedience you were probably going for with good cause for concern :)

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 9:28 PM

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It does take some effort to change your instinctive preferences, but once you do, I think the two ways are not significantly different in execution. I don't think a fraction of a second, or even several seconds (for someone like Bilka, who instinctively prefers to delete) would have made a difference regarding the exposure.

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But I do understand the need to keep some information private, just to be clear. I just think that it doesn't necessitate deleting messages in every case.

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 9:36 PM

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instinctively prefers
This is boxing someone into expectations of unchanging behavior and desires, limiting ability to reconcile differences again. I don't foresee complete agreement on this though, and I've reached the conclusion that the best we can hope for is an understanding of the incompatible preferences and mutual costs of the differences.

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Reasonable expectations require some degree of compromise, and I'm not going to fault anyone for deleting a message they do not want to persist

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 9:38 PM

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I don't see how that counts as "boxing", more likely poor phrasing on my part.

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 9:41 PM

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It was an appeal to stereotype of timeless nature and applying it to someone without their opting into such a description. We all do that to some degree, but expressing it in rhetoric divides people against each other instead of helping them care about each other individually

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The truth value of something doesn't determine whether it is helpful or hurtful, and believing that something can or cannot be changed often affects the degree to which one outcome or another can be expected

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 9:44 PM

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Er... what? "Appeal to stereotype of timeless nature"? What stereotype?

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 9:44 PM

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The one I coincidentally learned of when you categorized the deletion of old mod versions the same way

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Without that I might not have recognized the intensity and consistency of your values on this

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 9:45 PM

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I sure don't recall categorizing them in any way 🤔

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 9:46 PM

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From this I can tell you are being consistent in your values :)

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But that, too, is disrespectful categorization behavior

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Normal or not it has effects of making people feel judged as part of a group they did not choose to be part of or take on the expectations thereupon

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 9:47 PM

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Yes, I don't like that people delete old versions. Still don't see how this is relevant now.

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That I said that Bilka's first reaction is to delete the message? But is that not correct from his explanation?

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 9:50 PM

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Nono the fact that "instictive" means inherent to one's nature, just as "one of those people" means something someone cannot change, a dismissal and condemnation

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 9:50 PM

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Certainly not what I meant.

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 9:51 PM

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Alright, but that's how it comes across, and this sort of thing will require extensive effort on your part to recognize and adapt if you don't want that to be what others are responding to

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 9:52 PM

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I used the phrase "unconscious reaction" initally, but it felt too clunky, so I changed it. Would that have been better?

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Or, actually, I probably used some other phrase.

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 9:53 PM

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It's still making an assumption that it wasn't mindful at all

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It's a softer effect but similar in pushing assumptions of intent or lack thereof

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 9:56 PM

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Would you say that Bilka's response to discovering a potential information leak wasn't a reaction? That he sat before the screen and contemplated how to best handle it? That is not the impression I have got.

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 9:58 PM

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We could easily get into an entire nature vs. nurture, conscious vs. unconscious debate, but the point I was trying to make is that pinning that sort of thing on others one way or the other removes the acceptance of individuality from the interaction

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If I were to pin behaviors on you and assume that you could never change, I would not be having this discussion, having given up on the possibility of you understanding the effects of your communication patterns and modifying them with the understanding of how others take them

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I'm trying to demonstrate the contrast in every way

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More than that though I also want you to understand that I appreciate the effect you're responding to, the jarring nature of inconsistencies, and the hope that others will maintain that clarity where possible

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I can't justify enforcing a no-deletion expectation (rule), and I don't want this to become A Thing anymore than it has, but I do hear you on how it makes you feel and I hope you can consider the limitations of others in kind

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 10:04 PM

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I don't think I have pinned anything onto anyone here, just stated existing information. And I have certainly never said anything about never changing, I even explicitly said in that post that one can change.

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And I am definitely not asking you to enforce anything.

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 10:11 PM

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The only thing I can think to say right now is to reiterate that truth value alone doesn't determine constructiveness or destructiveness in human relationships, no matter how much one may wish for that simplicity :/

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 10:12 PM

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Then maybe it should be one's goal to strive towards.

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Being offended is overrated anyway.

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So people shouldn't search for things to be offended about is what I'm trying to say first and foremost.

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 10:14 PM

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Someone could say the same about your reaction to message deletions :S

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 10:14 PM

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Yes, I can use some chill. But at least my reasoning at its base is rational.

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 10:15 PM

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I think that is a very narrow and exclusive perspective that dismisses the values of others and I don't have much constructive to say beyond that.

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 10:17 PM

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"At least" is supposed to apply to the basis of my reasoning, not to my reasoning amongst everyone's reasoning.

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 10:19 PM

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That may be your intent but I don't think the effects match your intentions even with that explanation, and I wish I could convey that better

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 10:20 PM

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You will have to tell me how I should have phrased it then. And the "instinctive" part, for that matter.

harsh yacht Oct 31, 2021, 10:20 PM

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I can speak from experience on this matter for I deal with it myself quite regularly. I wish people would care less about opinions. However in reality it is more like "I don't like that people care so much about their and other's opinions", which - fun fact - is an opinion of my own that I seem to be quite passionate about. I have noticed this and try my very best to work against this opinion of mine and stay calm.

This is actually not very far from your stance on being offended, where you yourself seem something very similar to offended by other people being offended.

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 10:23 PM

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rain plaza Yes, I can use some chill. But at least my reasoning at its base is rational.

The entire premise of assuming one is rational is to create contrast and implicitly declare others irrational, despite the rationalization our brains apply to our habits and impulses every moment of every day, no matter who you are--we are both habit and consciousness, in an eternal dance of self-modifying behaviors.

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I can't suggest an alternate wording (consistent with my values) of something that entirely conflicts with acceptance of imperfections in ourselves and others

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 10:28 PM

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This is actually not very far from your stance on being offended, where you yourself seem something very similar to offended by other people being offended.
I only came to that conclusion very recently, there wasn't yet enough time and opportunity to put it into training.

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 10:33 PM

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fervent hawk The entire premise of assuming one is rational is to create contrast and implici...

Won't you then consider any stance or opinion to be completely subjective?

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I just don't understand how you can have any productive discussion like that.

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It still feels like we are talking past each other.

fervent hawk Oct 31, 2021, 10:47 PM

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rain plaza Won't you then consider any stance or opinion to be completely subjective?

To the extent that one can consider additional perspectives and generalize to them, agreements can be made that approach but never reach objectivity

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 10:51 PM

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So a statement like e.g. "if A implies B then not-B implies not-A" is not objective?

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Or "1+1=2".

harsh yacht Oct 31, 2021, 10:52 PM

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There is objectivity within commonly agreed upon rules

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But if one was to remove said rules, "1 + 1 = 3" may subjectively be correct. A fun example might be some riddle or puzzle in which context there are different rules

rain plaza Oct 31, 2021, 10:58 PM

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Yes, the rules were omitted for the sake of brevity (and because I don't have the technical knowledge to properly state them). But you can specify the rules enough so the statement is fully qualified.

#Message deletion reasoning