module discussion | Factorio | Page 1

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:31 PM

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It does but it never gets to 8 since you always have nedcaps

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:31 PM

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I never said you get to 8

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I said it will APPROACH 8

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:31 PM

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It becomes close, yeah

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:31 PM

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The limit of the function will approach 8

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As the square goes to infinity

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:32 PM

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But it doesn’t approach 8

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That’s the thing

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:32 PM

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it has a limit, probbly somewhere around 7.5

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:32 PM

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It approaches some amount less than 8, depending on the length of the beacon tile you are tiling.

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So if you’re tiling in the X direction

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The limit as you tile in the X direction depends on the length Y of the build

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Since you always have beacon endcaps in the Y direction

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:32 PM

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Yes, you increase both linearly

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:33 PM

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You cannot do that though

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:33 PM

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Why not?

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:33 PM

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You have to supply logistics along either the Y or X direction

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:33 PM

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Again, we are assuming bot fed

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Belts are no longer in the equation

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:33 PM

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You can’t expand that infinitely and maintain an 8 beacon tile

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:33 PM

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The roboport takes some space so it also reduces beacon efficiency

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:33 PM

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If you add roboports in the middle of an 8 beacon build it ruins the module efficiency

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It adds new endcaps

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In the middle

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Threads are good for debates

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:34 PM

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yeah there were people asking questions so i moved it here

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:35 PM

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It lowers it yes

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But you can abaolutley make it so it approaches 8

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Its not effective for an actual game, because you would be building ludicrous sizes

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:36 PM

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approaches means it hits 8 so it wont hit 8, unless you have some other definition

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:36 PM

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Approaches means it gets infinitely close to 8 without hitting it

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Like f(x)=1/x

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Although it would be a different function here

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:38 PM

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I think you'll hit a limit but im not sure, stretching it to infinity?

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:38 PM

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The limit is 8

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As in it never hits 8

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:38 PM

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It’s not 8.

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:38 PM

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But gets closer the closer you get to infinite

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:38 PM

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Sigh… okay. I’ll show you

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Or rather

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Show me a build you can expand infinitely in both directions

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That is 8 beacon compact

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If you don’t have one we can analyze any other beacon builds

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And set up a limit ourselves

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:39 PM

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This is a thought experiment, I haven't actually thought what it would look like

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:39 PM

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I guarantee it won’t be approaching 8

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The thing is, that infinitely expanding 8 beacon square is literally impossible

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I mean for one thing map limits

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But for another logistics….

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:40 PM

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If you assume logistics is no issue and an infinite map, it approaches 8, no?

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:40 PM

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Roboports too big, belts run out of throughput.

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Your only chance is miners exactly where you need them

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Refilling the beacon line as it goes

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An entire science factory inside 8 beacon

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And even that hits the map limits

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So not 8.

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If logistics is no issue and the map is infinite 8 is possible yes

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:41 PM

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Again, it will not hit 8

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It will approach 8

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:41 PM

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Right I mean

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:41 PM

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Thats what I'm going off of.

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:41 PM

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Just typing quick ChibiOhno

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:42 PM

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I can try to figure out how to infinitely feed it while impacting the efficiency minimally

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:42 PM

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Can’t impact the efficiency AT ALL

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Must be an unbroken row of machines….

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:43 PM

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So maybe you can have them assembling different things

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And have it loop every X tiles with an input of base materials

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:43 PM

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With sushi belts and miners where you need them

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:43 PM

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that sounds fun to build

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:43 PM

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I guess it’s possible

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:43 PM

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super fun... i might try that lmao

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:43 PM

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Its possible, albeit likely only in editor

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:43 PM

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But module efficiency though or beacon efficiency whatever we call this

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It should really be multiplied by average machine uptime

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:44 PM

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I thought we are only computing machine/beacon

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:44 PM

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(Average Machines per beacon) / (average beacons per machine) * average machine uptime

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:44 PM

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Adding uptime might skew this a lot

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:44 PM

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I’m trying to come up with a new metric that includes both

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:45 PM

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itll make it a ton more complicated and reduce beacon efficiency

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:45 PM

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I’m trying to come up with a new metric that includes both

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:45 PM

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Or rather, it's going to make it a hell of a lot more complicated

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Or rather, it's going to make it a hell of a lot more complicated

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:45 PM

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I want a metric that fully analyses the efficiency of you spending your resources on moduled designs

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I think the equation I posted is the one…

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A scale of 0-1

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:45 PM

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And then make the de facto most efficient machine?

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:45 PM

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With 1 being perfect

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Yes…

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Factories with module efficiency scores close to 1 are good for module transition

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Because they are extremely cheap in module cost

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:46 PM

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You might be able to get full uptime If the chain of machines is perfect

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:46 PM

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The idea is to hit decently long 8 beacon designs I think.

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And tile them to be squares

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As long as you feasibly can

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:47 PM

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And then layer them with each other

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:47 PM

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With full uptime

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:47 PM

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You need a final output as well

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:47 PM

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Or as much as possible

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I have some work along these principals

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:47 PM

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This works a lot better with infinitely fast belts haha

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:47 PM

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/139677590393716737/872725507257540629/blueprint.png

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Oh without a doubt

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I won’t be approaching infinity length or width hehe

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Just need enough to be far down on the module efficiency

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:48 PM

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pine tendon You need a final output as well

science -> labs

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so no

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:48 PM

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See I think I’ll be upgrading these builds to blue belt or at least red belt

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More length.

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But their module efficiency is pretty good.

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:49 PM

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Hmm yeah I guess you can do infinite science lines

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That feed into infinite labs

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:49 PM

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I think some repeating unit of science production would be key

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And just assuming ore is under it.

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Idk.

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:49 PM

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Since it's the only thing that theoretically actually uses up end products fully

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:50 PM

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Yeah you see why I was confidently calling the limit -> 8 impossible xD

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:50 PM

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I honestly don't think it's impossible.

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:50 PM

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I think I went down this thought experiment once and was like shit ima have to settle huh

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:50 PM

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Its possible, albeit incredibly complicated

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:50 PM

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If we ignore machine uptime, I think a design that freely spawns ore will be possible

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:51 PM

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Uptime makes it infinitely more complicated tho

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:51 PM

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So much more

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But outside this infinite theory, it’s super useful for actually comparing these designs

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Cause I think if we set up this calculation right we could make it a percent modifier to the payoff time…. engithink

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Hmmm

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No that’s just Straight up the uptime already

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I lied

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Yeah no need include it

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:53 PM

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A universal formula for moduled efficiency?

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:53 PM

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Having it separate is more useful

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:54 PM

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If you want to properly measure efficiency, we also need to measure output vs power×space

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:54 PM

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(Average Machines per beacon) / (average beacons per machine), and average machine uptime should tell you everything you need to know?

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Ehhh power,

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Ehhh space 😛

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:54 PM

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pine tendon If you want to properly measure efficiency, we also need to measure output vs po...

that should bea seperate calculation

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:54 PM

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Very cheap concerns tbh

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:54 PM

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one for module efficiency,
one for power (if you want)
one for space (if you want)

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:54 PM

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Also the same builds that optimize module efficiency optimize those… usually

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Like you can just list 5 things I think

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Output rate, power cost, space, module efficiency, average machine uptime

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:55 PM

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Space density is one metric that we can measure as
Output per second/(power used×space used)

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 4:55 PM

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sly jungle Also the same builds that optimize module efficiency optimize those… usually

not for power but for space yeah

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:55 PM

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The issue with that is it only matters for comparing designs of the same end material

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:55 PM

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pine tendon Space density is one metric that we can measure as Output per second/(power use...

I would just call that a secondary statistic, if you look at the 5 I posted you can easily get that from those 5

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 4:55 PM

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Yeah

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How are you measuring uptime?

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 4:56 PM

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You can see it on factorio lab for instance

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If you need 4.873 machines

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And you have 5

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Uptime of 4.873 / 5

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Assuming full output right

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Like when you’re output limited by a belt or whatever

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Bots would be good for machine uptime

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So I think the best builds for your module transition would be those where the uptime * the module efficiency is highest

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Which makes things interesting

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You can sacrifice one or the other if one or the other is particularly strong

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 5:00 PM

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hm so maybe have it not output a full belt is best?

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:00 PM

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Oh I see

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Slightly under ratiod gives us best uptime then

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So for example 55 machines if we need 56

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That way if there any hiccups, we still have full uptime

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:04 PM

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hallow pilot hm so maybe have it not output a full belt is best?

Yes, this can be better. Assuming the modules are significantly more expensive than the belts

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This might not be good inside like… tier 1 module + blue belt

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:04 PM

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The best application for this imo is making beacons, modules, and assembly machines

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Have an infinite assembly line that is assembling itself

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:05 PM

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I mean furnaces are a huge one too.

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Ohh

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Nvm

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:05 PM

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Put down infinite blueprint, and it makes the resources as it goes abd builds it

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Fuck I'm gonna make that

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:06 PM

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😄

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:06 PM

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Massive blueprint that you build with 1 assembly machine, 1 construction bot, 1 miner

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:06 PM

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nitro ‘Perfect module efficiency’ Rick

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:06 PM

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And as it expands, it builds itself

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It replicates building a factory the way you would

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But.. all pre-planned

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:07 PM

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Josef inside a perfect 8 beacon frame lmao

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Good luck 🍀

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:07 PM

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And you make the bare minimum

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Then just time-lapse the rest

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Imagine doing that until rocket

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:08 PM

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I’m kinda trying to preplan a factory like that from beginning and time lapse it

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With very efficient designs so the time lapse is nutty

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On deathworld hehe

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:09 PM

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Yeah

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I was thinking no biters

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Since you would stop touching keyboard

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:09 PM

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Ah I see

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Yeah I haven’t delved into recursive bp

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:09 PM

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Just start with 1 constriction bot and let it fill out the bp

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Not recursive

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:10 PM

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O

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They would be so dumb at choosing which parts to fill xD

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:10 PM

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Just a bp of the entire factory, but spaced perfectly so it can only build in the order you want

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:10 PM

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Oh I see

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:10 PM

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Nah, ofc you space it out properly

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:10 PM

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Like a uhh factorio Rube Goldberg

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But exponential

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:10 PM

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Or better yet, you can time it with power switches and combinators

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So after x time, the next area opens up

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And it builds that

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It would be 1 bot all the way to blue science lmao

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Might take a while

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:12 PM

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My sushi castle kinda works like this

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But its not really the same

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Yeah you’d have to have like micro builds or something

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:13 PM

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Yeah

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And as you expand, they get bigger

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:13 PM

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I think there’s a mod like this

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Removes players characters

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You start with bot

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And you gotta play sandbox like

hallow pilot Sep 30, 2021, 5:14 PM

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rts<<

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oh yeah bots dont work in threads

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#bot-stuff message

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:15 PM

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That's not quite what I'm thinking

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That does seem interesting tho

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I'm just saying a massive factory BP that is designed to build itself

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In vanilla

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:20 PM

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I’m kindaaa working on this? I mean its more like for practical usage but that’s how it will go down

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https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/310095683950477314/892565474456506418/unknown.png

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Like the top middle block is super compact and just makes robots off 2 robot frames asssemblers

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And then this whole thing will have roboports

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And it’s super tight so the robots can feasibly build it

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So I’m hoping this whole thing can be finished in like ~ 8 hours. Or something.

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In a new deathworld

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:22 PM

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Something like that, but starting way earlier

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:22 PM

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And you can see the bigger base

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The bottom left corner is a mall mostly

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So this base will build a bigger one on an even larger scale in the next 20 hours or so

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:23 PM

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Yeah I guess it would be similar to that

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:23 PM

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Added realistic time estimates xD

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:23 PM

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But instead of starting with robot production, you do it from scratch

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:23 PM

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The first ones were more hope and dream

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:23 PM

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All the way to robot production, and then all the way to rocket

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:24 PM

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Yea, for this base it’s just the player doing it by hand

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But I mean if there were robots I guess they could do it… slowly

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:24 PM

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Hmmm I could time the roboport inserter

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:24 PM

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You’d want like a bare minimum robot prod chain

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:24 PM

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And then have breakpoints where it builds new areas

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Oh wait even better

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:24 PM

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Yeah sushi belts would be good for this

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For seeding new networks and taking refined products network to network

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:25 PM

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Segment into areas, and when an area is finished, it places a combinator down that sends a signal to add a roboport to the logistics network

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So start the next area

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:25 PM

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You can check for it being done via construction robots not working for like 2 min straight

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:25 PM

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Also works

sly jungle Sep 30, 2021, 5:26 PM

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That’s how the sushi castle decides to fire arty

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Works well

pine tendon Sep 30, 2021, 5:26 PM

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Ok next time I'm playing, imma attempt this

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In like.... 2 weeks

#module discussion