#IT IS DONE. I've been working on this
low fractal
oh nice, when i saw your wip art it felt like it would be smaller, but this turned out quite nicely
stiff wraith
I thought i recognized that :D
topaz saffron
it looks like it fits into the style well 👍
cloud ferry
What does that do...?
That pipe is full, so it doesn't actually make lubricant... it should... create petroleum? Right?
stiff wraith
It turns lube into prod
cloud ferry
it... it what
like a productivity beacon? Only for drills or... just generally?
interesting...
how does it stack? Just like a beacon, linearly, not at all?
and what's the radius?
I have so many questions xD
hm. Might try it out...
stiff wraith
that is up to how petrak designed it. my guess is one beacon max, super big range, just for drills
cloud ferry
hmmmm... if it doesn't stack it would be a pretty boring playthrough
unless you go to insane lengths... holy crap this changes so much.
stiff wraith
No more boring than just adding a beacon
cloud ferry
this actually makes it less boring
yea because now you aren't supposed to mine directly into machines or into rocket silos anymore from which inserters distribute to machines... nor can you do the recycler mining thing where you have ~2000+ productivity level and then just quality-mine into a quality recycler, taking only uncommon ores for an uncommon megabase
yea nah this is cool
@thick wedge you. You just made me play again.
thick wedge
oh!! thank you so much!
I realize this is a really really opinionated mod so I'm glad someone else thinks it's cool
stiff wraith
How is it opinionated? Forums being weird?
thick wedge
i haven't playtested a run with it, so please, tell me if you think the recipes are too expensive or if the pollution malus is too bad
thick wedge
How is it opinionated? Forums being weird?
it's just a very strong deviation from the base game. i actually didn't post about it in the forums come to think. is someone having a flame war over there?
stiff wraith
Er the mod discussions
thick wedge
It has a radius of 15 iirc, and only one fracking tower works on each miner
stiff wraith
it's just a very strong deviation from the base game. i actually didn't post abo...
I mean, a lot of stuff deviates from the base game. I was wondering if people were going crazy on the mod discussions page or something
stiff wraith
Felt
thick wedge
Ugh okay, it turns out that module categories are on by default, not off by default
That is very annoying
stiff wraith
Rip
cloud ferry
i haven't playtested a run with it, so please, tell me if you think the recipes ...
+125% pollution and +50% energy is a total of +187.5% pollution. Per module.
That's a total of +500% for 4 modules, +200% for the energy, makes +1500%
Oh hell yes it is too much. I have a suggestion how you can fix this though. Modding imo is a matter of how you want to play anyways, it doesn't really matter how hard or cheaty something is because there's always more hard or more cheaty mods. Better: Give people settings
(All startup settings)
- Enter +% productivity/energy/pollution per fracking module
- Dropdown selection for stacking type: None, Beacon, Linear
Default pollution % could be lowered. Pollution % down to 60% (total of +90% with energy +50%) seems fair to me.
+1500% pollution (before speed beacons) really seems like it would simply not work before you have massive (or well-designed), pretty much impenetrable defense walls
stiff wraith
I believe its designed that way on purpose. Super heavy pollution for your productivity. Its a tradeoff
cloud ferry
I know but, they asked if it's too heavy. And it kinda is
Also @thick wedge would it be possible to change the fracking module 3 recipe to require a big mining drill? that would be so cool... yk, cool supply chain and all that.
stiff wraith
It would be a cool vulcanus unlock
thick wedge
Oh sure that's a good idea
thick wedge
I built this mod as a sub mod for an overhaul I'm making, where I'm trying to make pollution more important
by giving you less powerful tools to deal with biters
But okay :]
maybe it shouldn't even require more power? the drills aren't doing anything
stiff wraith
Oooooo spoilers???
stiff wraith
maybe it shouldn't even require more power? the drills aren't doing anything
That feels reasonable
thick wedge
spoilers?
stiff wraith
Like what other plans do you have
cloud ferry
maybe it shouldn't even require more power? the drills aren't doing anything
More power is cool because it's even important if you manage to fully secure your base, the power can still be felt
One thing though, maybe fracking towers before space science could be cool. Once you get to space, oil tends to already be a non-issue (speed 2 modules trivialize oil even at low productivity...)
thick wedge
Oh all my plans for TFF are more or less public, except for a few
I'm just bad at advertising
cloud ferry
@thick wedge Minor oversight: fracking tower tech requires space science to research, but space science isn't a requirement in the tree branch thingy
low fractal
<@273636822565912578> Minor oversight: fracking tower tech requires space scienc...
oh i like that module design
cloud ferry
Fracking 1 can only be made in machines, despite not costing fluid
cloud ferry
too lazy, sorry
thick wedge
well, I'm going to forget otherwise
thick wedge
<@273636822565912578> Minor oversight: fracking tower tech requires space scienc...
that is also intended, it's meant to be at the same tier as prod mod 2
note that modules 2 don't require anything from space
cloud ferry
huh no not like that
if it requires space science to research, the science pack is a tree-prerequisite of the research
cloud ferry
...do I have to be reminded of work while procrastinating with factorio 
I'll do it in... ...... 7 hours.....
cloud ferry
really don't like that fracking towers consume lubricant constantly instead of only when drills are working or something like that.
It would be fine if they didn't take 20/s... that's my entire lubricant production before beacons for a single one.
Plain ridiculous if you consider most patches need 2-4, and I need 2-6 patches of each. I'd need what, 80-500 lubricant per second?
There's no way I can even remotely achieve that without:
- voiding petroleum (ew???)
- completely negating all benefits by doing coal liquefaction (needs vulcanus)
The mod is simply pain, you can't scale at all without mining productivity
The ceiling, what's maximum possible in terms of mining productivity, is simply far too low.
I'm comfortable above about level 100 mining productivity, which is unachievable with this mod.
Unless I'm on razor-thin margins and constantly waiting instead of scaling, I can't play the mod. I'd have to rush all techs at the same time to even have a chance outrunning resource depletion.
It's gotten to the point in my playthrough already, that I'm considering just asteroid mining or doing everything on Gleba.
That's 2 half-built mining outposts with only fracking 1 modules.
Unplayable if I hadn't went for this much water in world generation
I already scaled down from my usual 4 belt iron 4 belt copper starter base down to 2/2 belts.
In retrospect, the mod allows only 1/1 without overextending yourself immediately
And even 2x resource generation to balance out the water didn't help. By how quick I'm running out all the time, I kinda need 0.2x tech modifier...
maybe this cheaty ahh map will feel more natural with the mod, I'm not done trying to find something that works
thick wedge
really don't like that fracking towers consume lubricant constantly instead of o...
OK. I was basing it on the production speed of one chemical plant -- i wanted more than one plant required to power one fracking tower. but i didn't think about how you can't specifically make heavy oil
thank you for this feedback, this is really, really helpful
cloud ferry
in the cheat world it's going well so far. Pretty cool all things considered.
cloud ferry
OK. I was basing it on the production speed of one chemical plant -- i wanted mo...
It's fine later on (big drills), but before that the ratio of lube to petrol (for plastics, for your entire machinery) is out of proportion.
Even in the cheat world (just a lot of resources), you are still forced to go get higher tech real fast. No lingering and doing endless stuff for a while before doing planets.
bit of a forced "all bling, no basics" run
cloud ferry
Actually... oil refining gives 55, 45, 25 petrol, light, heavy.
45 light become 30 petrol without productivity for 85 petrol to 25 heavy (3.4 to 1)
maybe fracking tower takes sulfuric acid?
thick wedge
There's an idea. I wanted it to take lube mostly because so little uses lube
cloud ferry
There's an idea. I wanted it to take lube mostly because so little uses lube
Okay I have a much, much better idea. Steam.
You have the choice between nuclear reactor and shipping steam (XD), local nuclear reactor, or local boiler.
and you need water
The logistics of getting steam to anywhere is actually more fun than lube
... like, I could really see myself build a 2x2 nuclear reactor at every mining outpost, filling it once or for large patches adding a requester chest
thick wedge
📝
cloud ferry
AND you can't really pipe steam because it's not dense enough
thick wedge
yeah you'd need to provide water somehow
Ooh it becomes especially inch resting on Fulgora
cloud ferry
A single boiler makes 60 steam per second, I think 3-5 boilers would be fine
thick wedge
Vulcanus you can just yeet down a steam vaporizinator, but that's alright, vulc doesn't have too much mining
And Glorbo is glorbo
i wish beacons took variable power depending on their items ...
cloud ferry
Ooh it becomes especially inch resting on Fulgora
Well fulgora's scrap is so plentiful that the measly ~3x you get out of fracking towers is not worth it sacrificing the ice at all
thick wedge
i think NSB may have a provision for that
Sure, but you get so much fricking ice and solid fuel you might as well
cloud ferry
(I don't)
Really, if you think that way you didn't play to end game with full productivity on your machines
Because there, ice (water) is the stuff that has the least steps to gain productivity bonuses, really turning the ratios upside down.
cloud ferry
aaand I basically only consider end game because that's where all runs go heh
thick wedge
do you think that the towers should get more module slots?
and do you think they should have better transmission efficiency
cloud ferry
Oh for sure, and stacking effects similar to beacons too
thick wedge
and do you think they should stack--ok
yeah i guess that way you can juice the miners up as high as you like if you have the power
plus it makes routing everything interesting
cloud ferry
If someone really wants to take the hassle? Hey who cares, let them burn 26466318 coal for +1 iron ore
thick wedge
ok
cloud ferry
and then it really becomes practical to build a proper nuke at every mining outpost
Meaning. Every mining outpost could get biter-sploded to smithereens if the reactor goes down xD
which once again fits in well with your "pollution/biters are more relevant"
thick wedge
that's fun
do you think hotter steam should make it work better? I'm thinking no
that way it's technically most efficient to put a giant array of normal boilers there
cloud ferry
that way it's technically most efficient to put a giant array of normal boilers ...
heat exchanger: 10MW, 103/s
boiler: 1.8MW, 60/s
But heating tower is 2.5x efficiency, so heat exchanger is actually only consuming 4MW of coal.
Boilers take 30kW per 1/s, heat exchangers 38kW per 1/s
Pretty even, all things considered. If it's possible, I'd say giving people the option to go steam late game (hotter steam → less steam used) would be better. I mean, you shouldn't make the game just less playable for challenge's sake, and if someone goes to Gleba, getting the heating tower for "mining steam" is a pretty neat reward.
Because the only other option than heating towers is nuclear reactor. And if someone is in the position to get a heating tower, the step to nuclear reactor is small enough that heating towers need no nerf.
Nuclear reactors would still be very powerful for this purpose even if steam temperature didn't matter.
Like the point I'm trying to bring across here is:
- Nerfing hotter steam only nerfs heating towers
- Heating towers lose against nuclear reactors either way (nukes are earlier tech + more efficient on resources)
→ Heating towers need no nerf and are already niche
thick wedge
i think it thematically makes sense, because why would superheated steam help
and it's interesting
also, heating towers are a Nauvis unlock in my overhaul
config options!
cloud ferry
i think it *thematically* makes sense, because why would superheated steam help
ever read the first sentence of the wikipedia article on fracking?
higher temperature steam = higher pressure, also basically why higher temperature steam is better in turbines
And fracking is basically just pumping high pressure stuff down deep to use pascal's law, crack some rock, push some oil or gas up (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fracking). Remember the "one shot glass can burst this barrel" experiment (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pascal's_law#Pascal's_barrel) ? It demonstrates that.
Even the romans used similar techniques already for mining https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ruina_montium
so yes, it all being based on pressure, higher temp = higher pressure = easier hydraulic fracturing (fracking) makes sense to me
maybe that as default option, and have the temperature-agnostic as an option too for those who... for some reason want to nerf heating towers xD
thick wedge
Oh, okay
cloud ferry
opened some github issues
stiff wraith
i think NSB may have a provision for that
that depends on your definition of 'depending on their items'
if you mean taking more power as more/more powerful modules are added, then yes
thick wedge
It would be a cool vulcanus unlock
currently frack 3 is a vulc+gleb unlock
cloud ferry
Also would it be possible (👀) to make fracking towers take pumps to craft? Would be in tune with yk, fracking
cloud ferry
Noticed that on Fulgora, the lubricant-based fracking tower is worth gold xD
cloud ferry
but of course, barely relevant because fulgora doesn't need much mining productivity to be easy
cloud ferry
@thick wedge Hey there, you haven't happened to update the mod yet right? Because on my side it's still lubricant based
thick wedge
I have not updated it yet. currently waiting on protocol to patch NSB
stiff wraith
which patch is that?
(also you have my full permission to poke me for updates)
if it's the working while at low fluid level issue, that won't be fixed until 2.1 (engine bug)
thick wedge
It's that one
i think you can fix it if you make sure that it's crafting fast enough?
for example, make a recipe that takes 1 second and makes some item that spoils in 1 second. when it spoils, have a trigger that checks if it's in a stack of 2 and disables the beacon otherwise
something like that?
stiff wraith
not possible with the current logic
i would have to check the energy source fluidbox per tick to see if it's working properly
a performance impact not worth the bugfix, imo
cloud ferry
Wait what. Why isn't a fluid-consuming beacon more straight-forward...?
thick wedge
Because behind-the-scenes it's done with bullshit, and there's a bug that prevents this particular bullshit from working smoothly, and it won't be fixed till 2.1
stiff wraith
average mod by protocol :)
cloud ferry
Because behind-the-scenes it's done with bullshit, and there's a bug that preven...
Honestly so far it works just fine. Could you maybe (🥺) push an update with the steam-consuming fracking tower, so that I can test it?
I want to continue my fracking mod run...
it's going so well ._.
thick wedge
I guess? but you'll be able to power it on a pittance of steam
i don't want to publish a broken mod, but i guess i can add a disclaimer?
cloud ferry
A list of all the simple changes we talked about so far:
-
Fracking tower recipe: Require pumps (instead of gears, or on top, your choice)
-
Fracking tower consumption: 60/s steam (1 boiler)
-
Fracking tower scaling – add settings: Maximum 1 (original), logarithmic (beacon), linear
-
Fracking tower module slots: Increase at higher qualities? Otherwise, logarithmic (beacon) scaling would be fine with 4 slots, max 1 would be better with 6 or 8 slots
-
Fracking module 3 recipe: Require big drill instead of tungsten plate and electric engine
-
Fracking module 3 recipe: Require advanced circuits (same as other module mods + base game) -
Fracking module 2 recipe: Require advanced circuits (same as other module mods + base game) -
Fracking module 1 recipe: Require normal circuits (same as other module mods + base game) -
Fracking module 1 name: change from "Fracking module 1" to "Fracking module" (same as how the other modules are named)
cloud ferry
i don't want to publish a broken mod, but i guess i can add a disclaimer?
It's already published, but yea. A disclaimer that a preexisting bug hasn't been fixed yet would be better than no update at all.
thick wedge
i've made most of those changes
well, not the scaling setting, right now it uses vanilla beacon settings
cloud ferry
I guess? but you'll be able to power it on a pittance of steam
I'm testing it. I know it's a bug, I know it'll be fixed, so there's 0 reason to exploit it.
I'll even add a storage tank to my design (ready to go for steam tower update) and make it my personal rule that it has to be 90%+ full at all times.
cloud ferry
well, not the scaling setting, right now it uses vanilla beacon settings
You mean "right now" in the dev version, right?
cloud ferry
thank you so much :3
Do you think you could update it next week or so? I'll start megabasing next week and it would be... good to have the mod then, heh
thick wedge
I'll do it rn
cloud ferry
wait like. Today??
thick wedge
Within seconds
cloud ferry
this is unheard-of-quick 🥺
thick wedge
i'm bored
cloud ferry
aaahahaha 0.4.0
thick wedge
i fucked up the version numbers at some point. somehow the mod portal has a 0.3.0, but i don't have a record for it in my git history
so for better assurance, v0.4.0
cloud ferry
hm
I liked the extra power more than the extra pollution
actually... it's kinda the same. And power only really matters for drills in the early game.
okay but carbon fiber for fracking 3 is cool. That really adds a lot.
thick wedge
yea
i think it's sad that there's only one cross-planet science in SA, and it's really boring (rail supports on deep Fulgoran ocean)
cloud ferry
my god this mod is already insanely cool
thick wedge
cloud ferry
okay
cloud ferry
nyehaha... steam fracking tower just in time to spin up this bad boi module maker
cloud ferry
did I really take 5 hours to fully design this...
I'll let you know if the fracking is enough productivity to balance not having the research
wait... it's still lubricant-
rose trenchBOT
cloud ferry
There's some weirdness going on.
66*12.3=811.8 but total should be well above 900%
This can't be a rounding error in the display either, as just for 20 beacons (894%) it's supposed to display "13.5 each" (13.5454545...)
cloud ferry
A list of all the simple changes we talked about so far:
- Fracking tower recipe...
Took out the consistency changes from the recipe suggestions. It makes sense as it is, because of input amount on each module making machine.
thick wedge
Uh, i think i made it a setting?
cloud ferry
These are the only settings I have available
cloud ferry
steam fracking tower? 🥺
@thick wedge The recycling recipe hasn't been adjusted to the new crafting recipe
cloud ferry
thick wedge
ughhhh i hate when Quality does its recycling calculations
can you open these bugs on gh please
stiff wraith
You can call the api to reupdate recycling recipes
thick wedge
Oh?
wait just by including quality?
isn't that really slow? i thought that was the point of zzz-recycler-final-final
stiff wraith
Idk but you can still just call the functor
cloud ferry
can you open these bugs on gh please
site doesn't respond for me anymore (demo below), that much for "just open a github issue"
thick wedge
🙄 thanks github
it's probably a github issue
maybe they got AI to rewrite the gh codebase
cloud ferry
I also improved my fracking tower design already for when the steam update rolls around. Now including a block of pumps that turn the fracking towers off once the mining outpost's chests are full.
cloud ferry
I would need the steam fracking tower right about now to continue my run... ._.
cloud ferry
._.
cloud ferry
@thick wedge Sorry to be annoying like this. I would really like to continue playing, but not having the steam based fracking tower makes it impossible...
Do you have an idea how long it'll take until you get around to actually implementing that?
thick wedge
no
cloud ferry
okay, sorry again for poking. Thank you for making the mod as it is :)
thick wedge
I have been refraining from working on it because i think i can get an in-house solution without NSB
but i haven't completely figured out the impl yet
thank you for understanding. i recognize this is frustrating
Having one super-duper fan like you means a whole lot more to me than having lots of people who kind of enjoy it :]
thick wedge
can you connect beacons to circuits?
you cannot. verdammt
@stiff wraith how exactly does this work?
It looks like you're constantly adding and subtracting items from an item stack, then listening to when the stack dies?
that makes me wonder why it isn't working
Iwonder if you could fake this working by checking if the internal fluid source has more than a little bit of fluid in it
ok i figured out my git confusion. i didnt' commit any of the code where i was testing with steam
stiff wraith
did you figure it out?
thick wedge
Not yet
stiff wraith
It looks like you're constantly adding and subtracting items from an item stack,...
what stack are you referring to here
also there are two sets of logic, one simple version where modules do not effect the source, and one complex version where the source is only affected by the modules of the beacon its powering
the simple one is triggered by the source turning on and off via circuit network
the complex one has a listener for changes, then applies those changes as required
cloud ferry
Having one super-duper fan like you means a whole lot more to me than having lot...
I just don't want to feel like I'm overburdening you yk?
I'll go ahead with lithium before the fixes are implemented. (and will continue playing with the mod!)
If you could push the recycling recipe fix for the fracking module 3, that's the most annoying currently. I can still easily play without the "perfect" towers and have even found expensive workarounds to get copious amounts of lubricant everywhere.
I would be more than happy with even small partial fixes, yk? Doesn't have to be a "perfect" version every time
cloud ferry
NSB was updated 16 hours ago... 👀
stiff wraith
no
cloud ferry
waaaaaaaaaaaaaa