Depends if the API has the command that

[dreamy granite]

it's a crash actually

Error while running event RenaiTransportation::on_selected_entity_changed (ID 57)
RenaiTransportation/control.lua:487: attempt to index field '?' (a number value)
stack traceback:
RenaiTransportation/control.lua:487: in function <RenaiTransportation/control.lua:475>

I can see it's related to zipline hovering..but I'm not even on zipline at that moment

[dreamy granite]

tried to selectively disable zipline and got another crash(on startup):
2.530 Error ModManager.cpp:1741: failed to load "RenaiTransportation": RenaiTransportation/data-final-fixes.lua:940: attempt to index field 'RTZiplineRecipe4' (a nil value)
stack traceback:
RenaiTransportation/data-final-fixes.lua:940: in main chunk

but ruled it out by adding
if (settings.startup["RTZiplineSetting"].value == true) then
check in the data-final-fixes.lua. Strange enough, the previous runtime crash is still here..

[rancid timber]

I think that first one has to do with moving the cursor over things, I have a note that only appears when mousing over an inserter that is frozen to avoid overflowing a belt

I'll have to see when I get home why that's happening

[dreamy granite]

in my last crash save it can be reliably triggered by putting 3 (empty) belt sections

but I can just wait, doing nothing, and it will still happen, just a bit later

[rancid timber]

That's weird, can you send me the save file for me to check out?

[dreamy granite]

well..I'd have to send the whole modpack then - I'm not shy to patch other's mods(or even up some to 2.0)

what's you timezone btw?

[rancid timber]

You just have to send the save file, Factorio will download the mods I'm missing automatically

I'm EST

[dreamy granite]

like I said, some mods were updated to 2.0 by me (for personal use)

[rancid timber]

Oh lol

Are they related to the crash? Maybe it'll work without them

[dreamy granite]

but there were no code, just recips and such

[dreamy granite]

the whole base won't

[rancid timber]

That's fine I just need to test the crash

[rancid timber]

Good find with that one 👍

[dreamy granite]

don't laugh, but I DON'T know lua actually, just utilising some code reading skills from previous IT background

[dreamy granite]

I'd say the mod needs more of such checks..no need to handle things that are disabled in settings

[rancid timber]

No worries I barely know lua myself lmao. My only coding experience is Matlab from college

[dreamy granite]

the base itself doesn't work, but just put 3 belt sections and it will crash

[rancid timber]

Fantastic thank you

It'll be a while before I can check it out

[dreamy granite]

I removed all "non-standard" mods from save

[dreamy granite]

so, how it all goes?

[rancid timber]

so the crash is because somehow im storing numbers instead of RenderObjects in the HoverGFX table. honestly the feature is pretty useless so I'm thinking I'll just remove it

they're all supposed to be RenderObjects, im not sure how some of them are becoming numbers

[dreamy granite]

omfg
so, how can it be fixed(and how fast) ?

and, by the way
this debug view - where it's from?

[rancid timber]

its a mod

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/gvv?from=search

idk theres lots of weird stuff in your save lmao

you should be able to click on these to toggle their dotted lines

[dreamy granite]

well, it's an import from 1.1

[rancid timber]

but only some of them work

oh yknow what

[dreamy granite]

others are hidden behind the trees

[rancid timber]

from 1.1 to 2.0 I changed how I track things from using unit_number to registration_number

becuase unit_number is less consistent

if you have leftover things being tracked by unit_number then those wouldnt function normally anymore lmao

also RenderObjects used to be numbers

in 1.1

[dreamy granite]

also there's a bug(at least it was in 1.1): pads don't retain blueprinted range if built manually(but do if built by bots)

[rancid timber]

i dont think that's avoidable because the same item is used to build all the range types

and the item defaults to the 10 range when placed by hand

but bots used the item to "restore" the blueprint

well actually maybe i could make the range some other property attached to teh bounce pad

[dreamy granite]

you know..
when I first tried to load the 1.1 base to 2.0 with most mods non-functional..and most of the things were broken, so u have to run everywhere fixing it..at that was SO FUCKING SIMILAR TO MY JOB!

[rancid timber]

yeah i figured most people would just start a new save with 2.0 so I revamped some stuff

i didnt really think about if it would be backwards compatible

[dreamy granite]

well, that explains everything

[rancid timber]

do you work as a repair guy?

[dreamy granite]

not exactly repair..kinda "the guy with NO right to say 'dunno' "

so u have to deal with everything

[rancid timber]

lol

[dreamy granite]

making things work no matter how braindead they were made

[rancid timber]

someone once told me to never tell me boss it can't be done, but to tell them what i need to make it happen

it was a guy form the navy though so thats probably their mentality

[dreamy granite]

it's easy if you KNOW what do you need

[rancid timber]

yeah thats the catch lmao

[dreamy granite]

and if you know what will you see there (because "everyone lies" ©)

[rancid timber]

well anyway i think your issue is related to a lot of different things in upgrading from 1.1 to 2.0

I can try to come up with some conversion fixes but I don't think I can catch everything

by taking out the HoverGFX i can at least stop the crash youre getting but other incompatabilites will be lurking lol

[dreamy granite]

is there a way to modify internal variables? or to reset it some way?

[rancid timber]

if there is I'd need some time to come up with it

nothing comes to mind immediately

because now you have a mix

[dreamy granite]

if it wasn't intended to be backward compatible - maybe it's just time for me to start from scratch (at least they returned the sandbox now)

...factorio is a game about engineering..but who said it's just about virtual bases? xD

[rancid timber]

definitely the quickest fix lol

yeah i studied mechanical engineering so my coding skills are just enough to get by

data structure base is complicated

[dreamy granite]

well..but there's still a long list of things about rt

[rancid timber]

rt?

oh the mod lol

wahts up

[dreamy granite]

yea xD

well..

first: have you considered splitting it to logical parts? one for zipline, one for throwers and so on. Smaller things are easier to maintain(and can be disabled independently if something)

I mean several smaller mods

[rancid timber]

when i made the zipline i considered it but keeping them in one mod made it easier to prevent two systems from interferring, like trying to use the zipline while bouncing on the bounce pads

and i was too lazy to figure it out and separate them

so I made them settings you can turn on or off

[dreamy granite]

well, it seems they're not actually turned off (remember my previous patch?)

[dreamy granite]

(this one)

[rancid timber]

yeah the settings basically just turns on/off the recipes

im saying if one zipline mod tries to mode the player along the zipline and the other bounce pad mod tries to move the player aloing the bounce pads then they would naturally confict

i use states like "jumping" "ziplining" etc to make sure a player cant do two things at one

cause some pepole had crashes from taht

[dreamy granite]

another bug: try to build this and zipline from one side to another (spoiler: you'll be dropped at small poles no matter what)

as steering doesn't work properly at small angles

[dreamy granite]

it's still possible for several mods to share things though

[rancid timber]

i never thought about htat but I guess it makes sense

what do you think the ideall contraoll would be for something like that?

[dreamy granite]

maybe u just haven't used it that much

well..we can use 8 main directions from controls

[rancid timber]

yeah i dont build power poles like that lol

currently it does calcualte from the 8 directions

im just not sure how you would get smaller resolution

[dreamy granite]

it's just an example
actually, in my save there was a similar situation with 2 substations and a big powerpole

(but those were modded ones so they're out)

[dreamy granite]

well..looking which wire directions are close to axis and snapping to it? in this example - left(right) and left-down(right-down)

the ploe can't have more than 5 connections anyway

the same situation live

[rancid timber]

i think thats how it works now is that it splits the connections into 8 slices around the pole based on angle, then depending on which of the 8 directions the player is "walking" in travles to the first wire clockwise in that slice

i think

its been a while lol

[dreamy granite]

well, maybe just make sure there's no more than 1 wire per sector

[rancid timber]

actually no its based on the order of the poles given by the .real_connections command

[rancid timber]

i dont think i should stop players from placing poles where they want

[dreamy granite]

I'm not about placing poles

[rancid timber]

or rather idk how I would enforce only having one wire per slice

[dreamy granite]

moving excess to another sector?

[rancid timber]

the slices im talking about are like this

[dreamy granite]

yea, I understand

[rancid timber]

so if the player is on the big pole and holding D, there are two wires in the D direction

if its in that slice i cant move it to another slice

cause thats just where it is

[dreamy granite]

well, the right big pole is D and the right small pole is D but slightly S as well, so it should be moved to DS sector

the same for left ones

the most intuitive way

[rancid timber]

true that would work if the DS slice is free

if there were then you'd have 3 wires in the space of 2 slices

[dreamy granite]

the "light" example is exagerrated, the "dark one" is more real

[dreamy granite]

..then just move one to the next available sector

[rancid timber]

true, i get what you mean though about having the wires spaced dynamically relative to eaech other instead of by physical position

[dreamy granite]

if we're speaking about control, the question is not about "where is it located" but "how to get there"

[rancid timber]

yeah you mean like this right?

[dreamy granite]

yea, something like that

[rancid timber]

thats certainly more flexible, it seems difficult to program though

would definitly need a lot of testing lol

[dreamy granite]

feel free to ping me if needed

I'm UTC+10 though

[rancid timber]

lol thats okay, doesn't have to be live

[dreamy granite]

well, there are other things thatmight be easier though

for example, zipline absolutely needs SEPARATE key to get on/off..countless times of accidentally screwing range of some thrower/bouncer while getting off zipline(and you're lucky if you notice this soon enough)

[rancid timber]

lol that's fair

youre adjusting throwers and stuff while you're on the zipline?

[dreamy granite]

yea, it happens sometimes

but more often you're just getting off the zipline with your cursor somewhere over a loose thrower

or you're over the water trying to adjust those non-range-retaining bouncers. OOPS..

[rancid timber]

oh right, in 2.0 its more normal to do more stuff from map view

[dreamy granite]

speaking of water: if "cargo ships" is installed, those water poles should have auto-detach DISABLED. Or it will freeze for a while and drop you on the lone rock in the middle of the ocean

[rancid timber]

yeah I think I can split it into "interact" "adjust" and "zipline" keys

[dreamy granite]

yea, would be great

[rancid timber]

lmao

I don't think that would be difficult

I just have to check what the water pole name is

in the code

[dreamy granite]

and another things zipline surely needs are BRAKES and maybe gear switching as well

[rancid timber]

make like a blacklist

[dreamy granite]

actually, I never go over red zipliner, as no brakes and bad steering makes it close to unusable

[rancid timber]

have you tried the auto driver?

[dreamy granite]

honestly idk what is it for

if there's just one way(like between outpost) - I'm not that lazy to hold a key, but there's a factory grid..

also terminals don't support renaming and I hate those shitty auto-names xD

[dreamy granite]

but only for auto-detach! Water powerlines provide a good way to reach faraway islands(and a range of 48 as well)

[rancid timber]

yeah i mean it would prevent you from getting off but you could still drive on it

you should be able to rename the terminals

[dreamy granite]

disable getting off automatically, NOT manually (there still can be some islands under the wire)

[rancid timber]

the terminal will drive the zipline for you between any two terminals no matter how complicated the power grid

and for any speed

[dreamy granite]

I know that
I mean, I can have a need to travel between 2 random points of the grid, so terminals are not of much help

[rancid timber]

ah i see

[dreamy granite]

well, if not some "point and click" interface so u just press an "activate" key, click a random pole and it drives you there

[rancid timber]

that wouldnt be too hard actually

so you could get on anywhere and chose any pole to drive to

[dreamy granite]

just an idea, not a requirement

[rancid timber]

yeah

so anyway what I could probably do quickly is more hotkeys and the dismount blacklist

[dreamy granite]

requirements are brakes(to stop anywhere quickly) and maybe gears (to switch max speed and maybe power cons to a lower/higher tier)

or maybe make it dependant on the pole type?

[rancid timber]

brake should be easy, speed shifting would be tricky since there are different trolley tiers already

steering will be tricky too but not impossiblt i dont thnk

[dreamy granite]

great

next thing: speed and power cons are not really related. Just one solar panel and you'll able to go full speed. Kinda cheat-y

and especially unfair during brownouts

[rancid timber]

lol really?

I didn't know it worked like that

That's definitely bugged

[dreamy granite]

on the other hand: why crank controller is "crank" if it still requires power? would be good to make it provide some(small) thrust without power at all

(common scenario - inter-island travel with bot-placed poles. During the night, ofc)

[rancid timber]

That's a good idea

I didn't put too much thought into the crank controller. I just thought the mental image of the engineering manually pedalling the Zipline was too funny

[dreamy granite]

you're not a "repair guy" xD

[rancid timber]

lol definitely not

[dreamy granite]

also controller being an "ammo" provides a minor meh as it won't fit a rocket

[dreamy granite]

the "what will I do if it's broken?" way of thinking is something

[rancid timber]

It doesn't?

[dreamy granite]

so it's not "look at that pedalling guy!", but "how will I get to the power station island during an outage?"

[dreamy granite]

no, you have to remove it to get to the orbit

[rancid timber]

Oh for the player to get on the rocket

[dreamy granite]

yea

[rancid timber]

Gotcha

It's getting pretty late here so I gotta head to sleep soon but thank you for the recommendations

[dreamy granite]

sure

[rancid timber]

I appreciate the feedback, a lot should be double pretty quick

[dreamy granite]

actually, the zipline list is over

but there's a similar list for throwers xD

[rancid timber]

You can always leave some more comments and I'll read them

[rancid timber]

I'm sure

I don't call it jank for nothing

[dreamy granite]

well, it's not junk, it's just..you seem to be not playing it much

and maybe it's a bit too much for your coding skills

[rancid timber]

Yeah not really, I sprinkle it in here and there but I know there are people who use it for everything it's got lol

[dreamy granite]

well, see ya then..I guess it's better to catch you at (your)evenings?

[rancid timber]

You can write any time, I'll answer whenever I'm free

But yeah that's usually in the evening

[dreamy granite]

yea, but some things need discussion so it's better to have both online

[dreamy granite]

speaking of cargo ships: can you imagine jumping TANKER? 😆

[rancid timber]

lol I tried that once, of course it didn't go fast enough to make the jump

[dreamy granite]

so, how it's going?

[rancid timber]

yo sorry i missed your message, i only get notifications for pings

but yeah its going good lol

working on my final assignment for class, and some of the stuff we went over

hbu?

[dreamy granite]

"hbu" ? u know, living in a different hemisphere, I'm not familiar with all the abbreviations xD

it's just..there's another list of things about throwers as well

but I realise I can't even test it properly as I have no working 2.0 base that's advanced enough

[dreamy granite]

just that one blocked by crash (unless there's a way to fix it somehow..reset all tables maybe?)

[rancid timber]

hbu = how 'bout you

[rancid timber]

you can use the creative mode mod, thats what I use to test

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/creative-mod

and then build anything you want in a new world

[dreamy granite]

some bugs are only appear if u play long enough

[rancid timber]

I was thinking I could probably clear all the tables and then scan all surfaces to repopulate them, it would probably take a while though

[dreamy granite]

..or at least put a warning "1.1 -> 2.0 migration wasn't really planned, so expect it to be buggy and all"

[rancid timber]

I tried my hand at making a migration file that should theoretically up convert 1.1 saves to work without so many crashes in 2.0. I also added some other things you can see listed in the changelogs. Give it a try if you'd like

I tried it on your save and it seemed pretty solid 👌

made mount/dismount zipline its own key so now you can set it to whatever you'd like. It's still F by default for people who don't want the function switched on them randomly when updating lol

[dreamy granite]

well, speaking of conversion - it worked for some hours, but then..

the crash I sent to you wasn't the 1st one, but there were ways to bypass it somehow (kind of floating error)

until I hit the wall finally at that stone outpost

[rancid timber]

yeah i think when I switched from unit_number to destory_id their counters were probably pretty far apart, but the more you played the higher new destroy_ids got and eventually started overlapping with the old recorded unit_numbers

[dreamy granite]

also I almost managed to convert that air filtering mod..but there are still some shit happening xD

[rancid timber]

lol you probably have better luck asking the original author

[dreamy granite]

and speaking of migrations - base game replaces violet inserters with blue ones upon conversion, would be good to include this as well

[dreamy granite]

he's long gone (last thing in the changelog was about him getting married and such. Almost 4y ago)

actually I had to patch it to make it work even in 1.1

[rancid timber]

damn

well good for him lol

is it not this one?
https://mods.factorio.com/mod/air-filtering

[dreamy granite]

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/bery0zas-pure-it/changelog

[rancid timber]

that's a good point, should be easy enough to replace it

[rancid timber]

lol yeah looks like an obscure one

[dreamy granite]

there were traces of that system in my saves (loose pipes everywhere and half-disassembled thing at the right, below the stations block)

well, the only remaining thing about that mod is to deal with it's recipes NOT crafted by anything (seems to be something with crafting categories)

[dreamy granite]

does the zipline (dis)mount require the cursor to point at the pole you need?

[rancid timber]

i dont think crafting categories changed much in 2.0

to get on yes, to get off no

but now to get off it needs a valid spot to land

so you cant accidentally dismount in the middle of the ocean

and cause a huge lag spike

[dreamy granite]

the best thing would be using the same key for mounting anything, be it pole, car or whatever. But I remember having issues with that when I tried

[dreamy granite]

yea, I know (it was that auto-dismount on water poles)

[rancid timber]

you could set it to be the same key in the controls, now that they're separate hopefully the issues will be gone

[dreamy granite]

there were problems if there are several mountable things nearby

well, needs further testing I guess

and speaking of throwers - there are other things about it

[rancid timber]

oh true, thats why pointing at the pole you want to mount on is good

even if its the same key

[dreamy granite]

I mean, it's more about making base game using the same logic(pointing at the thing you'd like to enter)

so for throwers

1. Basic yellow inserter is not available at the start of the game now, but the basic yellow thrower is. Look strange.

2. throughput depends on direction - throwing things up is several times faster than throwing down, left/right are in between

3. Throwing things in the water on nauvis discards them, what about other planets?

[rancid timber]

that's fair, im sure I can add it to the same tech as the normal inserter

[rancid timber]

someone pointed this out to me a long time ago, it has to do with the angled perspective of the game and how inserters rotate. As far as I know this can't be fixed without lots of tracking for every inserter that would cause a bunch of lag

[rancid timber]

any tile you can walk on the item will land on

so vulanus lava, aquilo amonia, and fulgora deep oil it will also be discarded

[dreamy granite]

that's actually the worst thing about ejector hatches - you can't feed a complex enough recipe with an ejector pointing downwards, would be too slow

[rancid timber]

but the fulgora normal oil that the player cann walk on, the items can also fall on and not get deleted

[dreamy granite]

also would be good to have a "mirror" bouncer for bi-directional thrower-lines (rotateable, ofc)

and range switching for all bouncers (like those sorters)

[rancid timber]

yeah that's just how inserters are unfortunately. The ejector is literally just an invisible thrower inserter with no collision

[rancid timber]

what do you mean by range switching for bouncers?

[dreamy granite]

directional one has a fixed range of 10

also, re-check thrower's range adjusting at placement (also it's impossible to do it on blueprints)

and sometimes it's messing up and places a thtrower when you try to place a ghost of it
I know that range adjustment is done via hidden blueprints, but there seems to be some shit happening with it

[rancid timber]

do you mean the filtering bounce pad?

the directional ones you can adjust to 5, 10, or 15

the filtering one yes its only 10

[dreamy granite]

yea, just idk how it called in your locale

[rancid timber]

true makes sense it should be adjustable too

[rancid timber]

ive never had a problem setting the thrower range before placing it, do you have an example I can try?

[dreamy granite]

I mean if you adjust the range but want to place a ghost instead of the actual thrower(to set filters, for example)

but it still places a thrower that starts throwing everything

[rancid timber]

I see

yeah you couldn't edit ghosts before 2.0 so that was never a problem before

ill have to think about how to do that

[dreamy granite]

you should just play more, so you'll find most such things by yourself xD

[rancid timber]

well i wanted to beat 2.0 normally first

you right though

I probably would find it myself if I did

[dreamy granite]

also there's a rare bug I've seen in 1.1 (not sure about 2.0 yet) - during the range adjusting before placing it sometimes(after a long play usually) creates a huge blueprint with a thrower in question in one corner and some tiles(landfill, water, etc - no actual buildings or other things) in the opposite corner

but you can get rid of it by reloading a save

it looks as if you're trying to adjust it - and it suddenly disappears

[dreamy granite]

also try to place some throwers on a space platform

[rancid timber]

I think it just throws items into space right?

[dreamy granite]

I won't spoil it for you xD

[rancid timber]

lol well that's what I coded them to do so hopefully that's the case

that's what I did for the space exploration mod anyway

[rancid timber]

I've never seen that and no one has reported anything like that either, sounds pretty wild

[dreamy granite]

it's prolly a "big uptime" problem

some loose end that start affecting things after some time of playing

[dreamy granite]

the first thing I see is a loose thrower, sending artillery shells to an already full box

actually I've seen that already, when a thrower "lose" its target condition and start throwing stuff indefinitely, just wasn't sure how to trigger that reliably

not 100% sure, but that seems to happen only if a target is behind a bouncer

[rancid timber]

Yeah the overflow prevention is really complex, I'm probably not calculating for everything

The alternative is to let them rip all the time and let the player handle their enable/disable with circuits

[dreamy granite]

is there any limit for a number of bouncers between a thrower and its destination?

or any other reason why some throwers are "disabled by script" despite the fact its destination is valid and free?

[rancid timber]

no there can be any number of bounce pads in the path

throwers are disabled either when the destination is full or if it has less than full power

[dreamy granite]

both reasons are not valid
I can remove one bouncer - they start working immediately, then I return it - all items go where they should, but throwers are disabled again. Is there something I can look at for debugging?

[rancid timber]

there isn't really an easy way to see it. If you use that gvv mod I linked before you can look at the global variables and in ThrowerPaths table you'll see a bunch of subtables indexed by bounce pad destroy_id, then in those tables are subtables indexed by thrower destroy_id which have a list of items that the thrower ends up throwing along a path that involves the bounce pad. But for any of that to be useful you'd have to be able to see the bounce pad destroy_ids which as far as I know is only by script

what happens is that just before a thrower throws something, it sends a simulated version of the item to see where it ends up and records any bounce pads along the path. So then with those recorded I can detect the events for those bounce pads being removed or rotated, which would cause the path of the thrown items to change. That way I know when to tell the thrower it has to recalculate the path of the item next time it tries to throw it

rotating or replacing a thrower also triggers a recalculatino of the paths

[dreamy granite]

looks like that pre-recorded route breaks sometimes

[rancid timber]

yeah in 1.1 i never had it break and I never got any report of it breaking but im sure in 2.0 there's new ways player can move stuff I dont have detection for

[dreamy granite]

that's kind of a big supply chain with a bunch of bouncers and throwers that ends at a spaceship, used as mall (with item filters inside)
and now some branches od that supply chain are working and some are not

[dreamy granite]

all this chain is imported from 1.1 as is

[dreamy granite]

btw, one obvious way is "picker dollies" mod

[dreamy granite]

also previous import version has no problem with it

[dreamy granite]

unfortunately it's not true for a base game itself..tried to use shared "mount anything" key on a pole between 2 trains - got a strange situation where the char itself enters a train, but the zipline carriage appears and can be moved arouns xD

I do understand it's not your fault, but idk if it's possible to convince devs to change the base game behaviour

[dreamy granite]

tried to rebuild that whole chain from scratch. Same result at the same place

I mean, same bouncer at the same place blocks everything

[rancid timber]

i think i figured out why, I didn't accound for some ways the old system worked with bounce pads and stuff when I made the 2.0 migration

[dreamy granite]

as if that place is cursed somehow xD

[rancid timber]

try this one, you'll have to load it from a save that hasn't gone through the migration so that my new updated migration applies

[dreamy granite]

yea, I understand that

[rancid timber]

I also added Left Shift as a brake button for the zipline

[dreamy granite]

yea, I noticed the brake key in settings, but it did nothing at the time

[rancid timber]

from my testing you should stop in place when you press it

[dreamy granite]

it was in the previous testing build

haven't tried recent one yet

well, the supply chain is operational now, thanks

and that thrower that was spilling shells over an already full box is fixed as well

as for brakes - it works, but on RELEASING the key (that feels strange)

ah, and replacing violets with blues works as well

good job 🙂

maybe it would be better for brakes to apply a deceleration than just nailing it in place? that would feel more natural

[rancid timber]

lol really? that's weird

I had it on Left Control originally and I had that same thing

I rebound it to Left Shift then it worked on press insread

so maybe it depends on keyboard

try rebinding to K or something

[rancid timber]

as far I can tell for mods, keys only send their input for a single tick. I can't detect a player holding down the brake key so I have to stop all at once

for normal zipline driving I can read off what direction the player is walking in so it can happen continuously while the buttons are pressed

[dreamy granite]

so there's no distinct OnKeyPress and OnKeyRelease events?

[rancid timber]

no unfortunately not

only on pressing

[dreamy granite]

lol, it works instantly with letters, but only upon release with keys like control or shift

well, maybe the game expects it to be a part of some key combination

[rancid timber]

Yeah that makes sense

[dreamy granite]

also you should know that your mod saves LOTS of fish from rotting
it was collected upon landfilling the ocean for solar fields, and was doomed to rot in the box in 2.0, but throwers made it possible to release all the fish back to the ocean

[rancid timber]

Haha excellent 👌

[dreamy granite]

but now I realise I'll need to deal wih biter eggs later..

also I wonder what will happen if a biter egg spoils into a biter mid-flight?

you'd better think of it now

on the other hand, if items won't spoil mid-flight - then it's possible to make a ring of bouncers to store such things

also, is there a limit of items flying in the ring of bouncers?

or maybe it's limited by ups only?

[rancid timber]

Well the items don't actually exist when they're thrown, it's just a picture of the item moving through the air so it literally can't spoil lol. Only when it lands it recreates the item

Throwers won't throw into a loop of bouncers by themselves

Unless you turn off the overflow prevention

In which case there's no limit to how many can loop around together

[dreamy granite]

but the overflow prevention is a scripted thing? controlled by settings, not signals?

[rancid timber]

Yeah

[dreamy granite]

huh

[rancid timber]

It's something you can turn off in the settings

Then throwers will just run all the time

[dreamy granite]

ah, so biter still can hatch out on bouncer?

or after getting into some chest only?

[rancid timber]

The bouncer doesn't count, only when it lands on the ground or in a chest/machine

[dreamy granite]

ah..

so we need a bouncer ring, a thrower with overflow protection disabled(signal-controlled?) and a signal-controlled sorter-bouncer with adjustable range

[rancid timber]

I guess so

[dreamy granite]

so the sorter can redirect part of items out of the storage ring

[rancid timber]

The hard part would be withdrawing just one

Or however many you wanted

[dreamy granite]

not much, actually, most of them should have protection enabled as it would cause a huge mess

[dreamy granite]

so that's why items were losing quality earlier?

[rancid timber]

Yeah

[dreamy granite]

auto-drop on water poles still happens. This time, though, it leads to a crash. But manual dismount over the water is blocked and that's good

[dreamy granite]

another bug: go towards the end of a powerline, stop in the middle of it's last segment and go back - and you'll be dropped at the second pole as if it was the edge one. Direction seems to be irrelevant.

[rancid timber]

Yeah I didn't put the auto dismount blacklist in yet. What mod adds those water poles?

[rancid timber]

Actually if I add the check for a valid place to stand to the auto dismount that should work too

[rancid timber]

That's a weird one, I'll have to check that out

[dreamy granite]

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/cargo-ships/
but yea, maybe just add a place check to autodismount too (someone may have an over-water powerline with vanilla poles on small landfill patches - still nowhere to jump to)

[dreamy granite]

btw there's a mod that's a derivative of yours https://mods.factorio.com/mod/lob (though you already know about it probably)
he claims he made an ups improvement, so maybe you can use it yourself? it seems to be forgotten anyway

also you said items don't exist while circling a ring of bouncers, only their pictures do. Does that mean it won't consume ups as long as nobody's looking at it?

another thing: overflow protection prevents throwers from throwing things into a ring of bouncers only. BUT: if there's an adjustable thing that makes it seem to have a valid target, that switches range/direction/etc after filling the ring..

[rancid timber]

I'm not sure what you mean. Are you asking if there's something that will temporarily turn off the overflow prevention?

[rancid timber]

I don't know, I think it still uses some UPS even if no player is looking at it

[rancid timber]

Yeah I've seen that one, most of the ups improvements he added are at the cost of some function. Like when it throws the item it instantly transfers to the inventory and the projectile is just aesthetic. It also checks throwers less often so it's not as good with fast inserters

[rancid timber]

I've never actually tried it but everything in the description makes sense that it would improve performance, but it loses some "cool" factor

[dreamy granite]

zipline feels even more useful on fulgora, I must say

also bouncers don't toggle their arrows if you click in remote view, idk if that's a bug or not

[rancid timber]

as far as I know its a bug specifically with clicking on map view

https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?f=7&t=124398

[dreamy granite]

ah, ok

so, have you tried the space part of 2.0 yet?

[rancid timber]

Yeah I've beaten the expansion without mods

Except the shattered planet

Couldn't be bothered lol

[dreamy granite]

so have you tried throwers on spaceships?

[rancid timber]

I tried it in the creative mode mod, looks like they work the same way they did in space exploration

Which is good lol

I think I want to make throwing items backwards off a space platform generate a small amount of thrust

[dreamy granite]

well, physical accuracy all the way xD

but what about them being SO DAMN SLOW?

[rancid timber]

The items or the inserters?

[dreamy granite]

well, it looks like a usual inserter with very long arms, but one swing takes like 30 seconds

and ejector hatches throw like 1 item per minute

[dreamy granite]

and there's another thing that needs to be fixed: if you try to remove hatch from some building, there' s a great chance you'll remove the building as well (time between those is really short). Dunno who's to blame though

[dreamy granite]

or maybe it's time to ask are those hatches needed at all? why don't just make it like in LOB mod, where thrower operates directly with any entity that can accept items

[rancid timber]

That's odd, it moved normal speed when I tried it. It sounds like they don't have enough power

I'm not sure if there's a way to prevent removing things under the hatch since they're right on top of the other lol. I have had that problem too but I just put the machine back and deal with it

There might be something I can set to "cancel remove mode" maybe

If it exists in the API

[rancid timber]

The Hatches are definitely not needed but I feel like it makes the visuals look better
As opposed to the item just passing through the walls into the machine/chest

[dreamy granite]

just tried the new version. You seem to forgot another conditional operator(to NOT try to load disabled things)

[dreamy granite]

so I was unable to check that

[dreamy granite]

actually encountered this thing in 2.0 as well, but it's a rare thing and not easily reproducible

[rancid timber]

Ah fuck

Yeah I think I added something just for testing something new and used that as placeholder

I'll check it out, thanks for letting me know 👍

[rancid timber]

okay I think the crash should be fixed on 2.0.11

[dreamy granite]

yea, the crash is fixed now, but you forgot one debugging print xD

[dreamy granite]

if (ThingLandedOn.type == "transport-belt") then
game.print(3)
in FlyingItems.lua

so it keeps spamming threes in console

[rancid timber]

lmfao

Why is programming so hard

[dreamy granite]

it's not "hard", it just requires a special mindset - a constant attention to such small things

also that's what testers are for

[rancid timber]

that's true

I removed it on v2.0.12

[dreamy granite]

well, there's still a problem with throwers on space platforms: they're not just slow, but filling only the near side of the belt (on the planet surface it fills both)

[rancid timber]

to me it looks okay

[rancid timber]

do you have a save file or recording of what you're seeing cause it doesnt sound right

[dreamy granite]

it turns out it recreates all the item's properties, including freshness timer. So: I sent some fish bouncing in that "cyclotron" for several hours, everything was fine..just it becomes rotten immediately on exiting the ring

[rancid timber]

lol I guess that makes sense 🤣

[rancid timber]

btw someone reported the same thing happening on their save. They found that placing the thrower in the editor (which I did) lets it function, but letting the platform place the thrower like normal does not

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/RenaiTransportation/discussion/67e34c2841b2567b60f42872

so now I know why it wasn't working for you, I will have it fixed next version. You'll have to break and replace them to fix it though

Also I made an adjustment to the zipline driving so that it if multiple connections are close together, it will always choose the longest connection

not perfect but I feel that's what players want to do 90% of the time

will also be in the next version

[dreamy granite]

actually I was thinking like "make it prefer bigger poles over the smaller"

..but it could be difficult as as I'm using modded poles as well

[dreamy granite]

don't remember about range adjusting, though - I did the "thrower ruler" bp some time ago and just use it to copypaste the one with the range I need

but adgusting the range of blueprinted throwers(or trying anything in remote view mode) still doesn't work

so the "thrower ruler", made to adjust range before the relevant tech is open, is still in use xD

[dreamy granite]

also another minor bug: it's impossible to switch to another planet in remote view while hovering on zipline

[rancid timber]

Bigger poles are usually further away so I think it works out

If it doesn't work well I can change it back

[rancid timber]

That's a wired one, I'll have to see why that happens

Thank you for letting me know 👌

[dreamy granite]

well, that's better for handling all modded poles without any additional effort, but range calculation is probably more ups-consuming than looking at the pole parameters

(yea, programming consists of trade-offs mostly)

[dreamy granite]

also just noticed another bug: there's not enough copper cable to build a thrower, but it doesn't notice that(unlike the missing inserter). Dunno if that's about the mod itself, but I haven't seen that with other items

[rancid timber]

I think that's just because copper wire is made in sets of 2

if i put 3 iron sticks in my inventory with some iron plates, the medium pole shows up the same way

[rancid timber]

also I figured out why the remote view doesnt work on zipline, I had some code to teleport the player back to the starting surface if they teleported away while ziplining because if they were ziplining past the door of a factorissimo building they would get sent inside and cause a crash

easy enough to add a check to stop that though

[dreamy granite]

also just found another funny bug: if you try to copy settings(ctrl/shift-click) from long thrower to a basic one, it starts working as a long thrower itself(with a range longer than it's own max)

[dreamy granite]

what are those double zeroes in the req window btw?

[dreamy granite]

and this is frozen sulphuric acid, thrown by an ejector hatch

[rancid timber]

In the API inserters can either be adjustable or not adjustable so there's really nothing stopping you from copy&pasting the long inserter setting like that

The double zero means I'm requesting 0 and that I want the logistic bots to remove until I have 0. On vulcanus and gleba I randomly accumulate a lot of those ores and stones so getting the bots to remove them is convenient

[rancid timber]

Is frozen sulphuric acid a modded item? Any items that are added or procedurally generated after my mod won't be caught by my code, so that question mark icon is used as a place holder to prevent crashes. It should still work though

[dreamy granite]

is there any event generated on copypasting settings? so you can intercept that and check for validity

[dreamy granite]

actually yes, just discovered that..frozen fluids were there from the start, but turns out they moved from 1.1 with a mod (reverse factory)

it's just the ejector itself and the receiving box are using the right icon, so I thought smth could be wrong

[rancid timber]

There probably is, but then I would have to store every inserter's previous settings so that I can revert to it if it's beyond the normal reach

I don't really mind that interaction enough to add that kind of limitation, unless a lot of people think it should work that way

[rancid timber]

@dreamy granite hey man, you've been fantastic with all the feedback and I appreciate your suggestions and comments. Would you be interested in testing the next version of the mod? It has some new stuff and also the bug fixes and changes to hopefully make the Zipline/remote view work better

If you are, you can download the .zip file here. It's also on my GitHub on a separate branch if that doesn't work
https://drive.google.com/file/d/19kL-HCvTTopAxGbPCNb3Xd1Qa_Nag09p/view?usp=sharing

[dreamy granite]

oh..was busy with my work and such for a while, so no time for discord. Sure I'll take a look

aaand right from the start:
35.696 Error AppManagerStates.cpp:1648: Error while applying migration: Renai Transportation: RT-2.1.0.lua

Unknown entity name: RTTrainRamp
stack traceback:
[C]: in function 'find_entities_filtered'
RenaiTransportation/migrations/RT-2.1.0.lua:54: in main chunk

also using typo-like identifiers(such as "irection") is usually not recommended

[dreamy granite]

same shit with PrimerBouncePlate

(like I said earlier, if you give an ability to disable something, you should check that everywhere)

all bouncers now look like R signal, so you can't even tell which one is that. Also it has its range as a signal, but connecting wires to it is impossible. So wtf is that at all? 😁
also adjusting their range is impossible as well

throwers on space platforms seem to work like before(slow and strange)

thrower stack inserter is available to build even if usual stack inserter is not

belt ramps looks slightly cheaty with their 0 power req, but definitely and interesting thing

and a possibility to use them instead of regular bouncers makes the latter a bit questionable

also would be good to have destination arrows for belt ramps and vacuum hatches(like throwers have)

longest wire selection for zipline seems to be working at the 1st glance

[dreamy granite]

you seem to be totally unbothered by quality for all your items?

[dreamy granite]

EM cannon looks interesting, but not very clear how to use it. Also all unused empty shells disappear upon mining it

well, that's it for now, I guess

but I probably take a closer look soon (you still have something to do 😁 )

[rancid timber]

Ah right I forgot about checking for what is/isnt enabled, good catch 👌

The R signal is just how I keep track of the range when copy/pasting, it shouldn't be visible normally and the player isn't meant to connect wires to it. Do you have some debug settings on? I'll have to see how I can hide it so you can actually see the bounce pads lol

The belt ramps don't use power because normal belts don't use power and it's a bit computationally expensive to set it up for that in the API. There are certain downsides to it always running though so I think it balances out, will have to see

Yes different qualities don't do anything right now, quality only supports a few properties innately so I would have to script it manually and so far I don't have any ideas for it

Thank you again for your feedback on the bugs and functions, I appreciate your time 👍

[rancid timber]

could you upload your save file somewhere I can try with? I have the last one you sent and fixed up the migration testing with that one, but I don't see the bugs with the bounce pad signals, throwers on space platforms, and unlocked stack thrower inserter

also the reason why the range adjusting for bounce pads doesn't work is because I checked for the wrong setting to be enabled for that, one you have disabled

[dreamy granite]

no, there's nothing debug about it, it's drawn in altmode layer(and disappear with altmode off)

[rancid timber]

oh it must be because I have combinator set to off for alt-view

[dreamy granite]

also tried to remove one thrower on the space platform and reinstall it. The reinstalled one throws stuff fast, as intended, just ignores range settings(but the pointer arrow is still there)

just throwing ammo into space instead of a turret

[dreamy granite]

yea, that "settings matrix" between different people is an important thing about debugging

[rancid timber]

here is a slightly updated version with a few fixes for the migration and bounce pads

https://drive.google.com/file/d/13r0vRUGgPgOq0oaFje3mbGYYeSSYAa4L/view?usp=sharing

The item cannon doesn't work in that version, its going through some changes with someone else

[dreamy granite]

yea, migrations and bounce pads are fixed now

[dreamy granite]

well, wagons work just fine without hatches

and maybe all bot chests(requesters, providers and so on) could do as well

also there's one more thing to handle: on Gleba you can order to make a bunch of items like biochambers, that require short-living ingredients like nutrients and pentapod eggs. But that actually prevents you from using zipline, because current system of recipe "passthrough" (through recreation) will be canceled by timers running out

so you won't drop items like it was on other planets(yea, it still could happen if you build something like a bunch of nuclear reactors), but you just lose all ingredients silently(just get several stacks of spoilage in return)

but at least you won't get a bunch of pentapods around 😁

[rancid timber]

That's interesting, I've never tried that but I guess it makes sense that would happen lol. I'll have to see if the API let's me modify that

[dreamy granite]

actually I've never ran into this yet, it's just a "tester's mindset" - I guessed that, then tried it - and reported the result

[dreamy granite]

have you actually tried throwers on space platforms?

just tried the new version, and they're still broken, but different way - just sending items into space, but having a destination-pointing arrow and actually honoring it(like, thrower loading the turret will only get ammo amongst other items..but still just throwing it away, as if lack of gravity makes it impossible for thrown items to hit their destination)

also, just to mention: all items have their weight(considered upon loading them into the rocket, for example). Is it used when calculating the momentum upon throwing them away on space platforms?

two of them: one trying to load turret and one trying to unload some ore on the belt

[rancid timber]

That's how its supposed to work, basically the only purpose throwers have at the moment on space platforms is voiding items

The momentum is only by the number of items thrown, not weight

[dreamy granite]

huh? so they're not meant to work like on planet surface?

[rancid timber]

Nope. I mean there's no gravity up there so I feel like that makes sense

[dreamy granite]

well, ok then

(though it will actually make them useless and forces me to redesign all the ships)

[dreamy granite]

makes sense then to remove arrows and range adjustments as they're useless anyway

(actually I'd prefer leaving them as before then 😁 )