#Pollution thread

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

regal stratus
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Your wish is my command

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cc @thorny mirage

zenith trellis
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Down chain matters, for sure. But 2.7 vs 105 is worth looking at the down chain effects

regal stratus
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Yeah, so you have to do that math to find out which one actually makes less pollution

zenith trellis
regal stratus
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factorio planner, I think factoriolab can do that too

zenith trellis
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There's a couple variables to optimize over too, I think the miners should also be optimized for that? Putins has a design for that

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All 3 module types are options

thorny mirage
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Heh yea factorio lab is a good way to go

regal stratus
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here I'll do it right now in factorioplanner

zenith trellis
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I was looking for this design

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+70% speed, -80% power I assume? I don't know the counts there

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What tier of moduling on that @thorny mirage ?

thorny mirage
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Yea +70% speed and -80% power

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It’s 2 t1 speed beacons, 1 t2 speed beacon, 5 eff1 beacons, and an eff1 miner.

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That’s Affecting each miner

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You couuuld have better modules on the miners, but probably not at the moment when you prod3 purple or yellow.

regal stratus
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first approximation

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thorny mirage
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Yea I don’t think speed moduled purp science has any chance trianglepupper

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I’ve looked at all this stuff in the planners many times, just long ago so lost the references

zenith trellis
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I found it unlikely too, but x50 is a big number. Purple is the most extreme version of this as well

thorny mirage
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It’s just… a misleading number idk

regal stratus
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I can understand why you would be wrong about that, but it seems it's wrong

thorny mirage
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Until mining prod lvl 100 or something

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This is because miners are the main polluter of an eco base

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Unless you megabase mining prod

zenith trellis
thorny mirage
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Yea

zenith trellis
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This might be one for Kirk's, let me start pushing buttons

thorny mirage
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But then again you told someone today that the math wasn’t in yet trianglepupper

zenith trellis
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We're doing the maths rn? XD

thorny mirage
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Well it’s beeeeeen done we’re more like, checking work ;p

thorny mirage
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That was the main reason I switched from Kirk to factorio lab long ago

zenith trellis
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Fuck, you're right. I can't use power b/c of the prod modifier. That sucks

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Let's see if I can do it with flab

thorny mirage
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In fact the reason factorio lab lets you input stuff with mix of speed and eff beacons is because I talked to ilb about it bc I was running all these numbers trianglepupper

regal stratus
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factorio planner does show pollution also. I use it a lot because then I don't have to alt-tab

thorny mirage
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Yea I do factory planner in game or flab on my phone

regal stratus
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I don't use the recipe overhauls but I think it auto-imports those too

thorny mirage
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Yep it’s a god send

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And it’s matrix mode can handle the insane recipes and loops too

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It’s great

regal stratus
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yup

thorny mirage
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We do a lil plannin

zenith trellis
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The chain for purple is so long, and I feel like it matters that I get the middle of the chain right

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Total of 7.8 p/s for one purple machine

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whoops failed to copypaste correctlyChanging only the purple to Fireball's 2 speed3 10 eff3 seems to reduce it to 6.7 p/s

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But also decreases i/s output

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Oh I should spec it to output i/s not machines

thorny mirage
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Yea, prod sci remains in the ‘always prod’ list, I think.

zenith trellis
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Hold your horses my dude

thorny mirage
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Was that not the race? :p

zenith trellis
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IE it wins

thorny mirage
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Your mining prod is set to 520% rn as well 👀

zenith trellis
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Good point, perhaps that'll be important to toss on there, I'll dial it back and compare

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What's a fair measure?

thorny mirage
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At the point when I’m putting prod3 on this tier recipe… I probably have 20-50% mining prod?

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Somewhere in there idk

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Either no purple / yellow spent yet or at most a few rockets into it

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Thats one of the more complex things with these module deep dives, esp for low pollution. Is the ordering is so important of when to invest in each thing

zenith trellis
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Where my brain is at right now is that if you just go down the list of the worst pollution/s offenders, and switch those out, it seems to be having a net positive

thorny mirage
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The worst are mining drills!

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Not sure what you’re thinking of

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Gotta keep in mind also that the pollution output of prod + speed builds and where it comes from looks very different to a base trying to be low pollution

zenith trellis
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Prod is not the pollution king

thorny mirage
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No

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Try this module combo and take a look

zenith trellis
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Ah see, the mid-chain is different 😛

thorny mirage
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Yea that matters lol

zenith trellis
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Yeah that's what I'm fucking around with for sure

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The speed beacon count must be different on mine too

thorny mirage
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Yea I think you gotta compare low pollution builds if u wanna look at low pollution stuffs

zenith trellis
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Yeh it's gotta be top to bottom.

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Did you just not get around to this one?

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thorny mirage
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I suppose I only changed the assembler default

zenith trellis
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Yeha you eff'd the other furnaces too

thorny mirage
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Furnaces aren’t there yet either but

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Oh

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Hm lol

zenith trellis
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lmao it's complicated

thorny mirage
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Lol yea I ran the test much more diligently a long time ago but for some reason it’s harder to use flab on mobile now so my will is fleeting

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But maybe if I try to find the desktop mode thing

zenith trellis
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I'll poke it for a bit

lost wasp
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overlays auto-closing themselves on mobile?
that's gotten super annoying

thorny mirage
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Yeaaa

lost wasp
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I'm planning on redoing all that but maybe I can put in a temporary fix

zenith trellis
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Jfc you still need 10 eff3 beacons to bring speed modules down to power use

thorny mirage
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I think you can technically get 1 more speed3 in there

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But I was a bit lazy lol

zenith trellis
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2.5/9.5 didn't work

thorny mirage
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Or maybe it’s a speed2

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I forget lol

zenith trellis
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lol the pollution isn't even there, mid-chain

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saving 0.5 pollution/s in steel, but costing...

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0.8 in ores

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About the same effect on iron itself

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The only other place is maybe red chips I guess

thorny mirage
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Oil refinery and nice pumpjacks

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Maybe the cracking, dunno

zenith trellis
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Red chips with speed saves 1.5/minute, this is down chain with speeds

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Oh let me just look at total

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RED CHIPS SAVES 0.3

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Also purple is 100% the worst chain to look at this for, it's the one least likely to see a benefit lol

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ffs it reset to 520.

thorny mirage
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So I am hit 15.7 by going to 3 Speed3s on red chip

zenith trellis
thorny mirage
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Yeaaa it’s bad module combo for assembler unfortunately

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I knew something was off lol

zenith trellis
thorny mirage
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Took me a while to figure it out

zenith trellis
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I should've fixed that in mine, I saw there were errors and reset the defaults

thorny mirage
zenith trellis
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Yeah I fixed that in the default settings on the left 😛

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(I hope)

thorny mirage
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Errr no not fixed yet I’ll show u I can do less pollution per item ;p

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Changing just the beacons module for assemblers to one less speed and one more eff

zenith trellis
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2.5/9.5?

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Or 1.5/10.5?

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The thing I was taking advantage of was mid-streams being high

thorny mirage
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1.5/10.5

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Sry I gave u bad module combo

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I remember lower tiers better 😅

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It’s very hard to get up to eff3s, most my play has been with eff1s and a few eff2

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Handful of eff3 maybe

zenith trellis
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lmao I think we all know that saving this 0.2 or 0.3 isn't worthwhile, but it's still surprising how close things are with the knock-off effects

thorny mirage
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Yea I lean prod when it’s close for sure

zenith trellis
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I could see potential uses if you had a reason for wanting pollution to be in one area as opposed to another

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And tbf, it reduces pollution AT the factory, whereas miner pollution will be spread

thorny mirage
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Miner pollution is where it’s close to the biters tho ;p

zenith trellis
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lol true

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The points it seems potentially useful are the slow recipes

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Red circuits was notable for me

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B/c that's also the one where you upgrade prod later, in the circuit chain

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Probably because reducing machine count with the +40% from prod starts to actually make a difference?

thorny mirage
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I think not prodding red chips is still madness tbh xD

zenith trellis
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We're well into the rabbit hole, alice lol

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But yeah maybe that's the thing to look at

thorny mirage
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I think the first machine you can make a case not to prod will be iron or copper plate furnaces

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Which is mostly a question of what mining prod, and then after that, maaaaybe there could be others, as you go higher and higher mining prod

zenith trellis
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Right, I think that's also a good note. At higher mining prod levels, speed does win

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Mining Prod greatly reduces the impact of that knock-off, and as you said, the majority of the pollution is in the miners

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At prod 500%

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thorny mirage
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Try prod 5000% just to get wild with it

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Ah 500% seems like a transition ish point

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Prob would want a lot more to care but still

zenith trellis
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Yeah I'm sure there's an inflection point, and it may be different for different spots in the chain. Probably is

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Mining Prod 5000%, 100 purple/minute, default build

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Huh? This is speed build, I must've fucked something up

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AOP seems to not be pollution efficient

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Not sure where the inflection point is, but I think lower in the chain is more important? Also just the pure pollution at that step

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You can accept more pollution lower in the chain to save 5/s, if the down-chain is less

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Wube managed to do it again. No global optimals lol

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I'm pretty sure mining prod's effect behaves asymptotically? 5000 to 5010 is not as impactful as 100 to 110.

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Or like a log, probably