i'm pretty sure this will work
#Sushi Mechanics?
plain vault
queen cairn
The line going up and down is the moving average.
summer zinc
yep that's perfect ( the standalone soolar panel)
queen cairn
summer zinc
that concept i already have in the back of my mind, i'll be using it when the need arises
i think i had that standalone thing for laser turret activation as well
because some areas i have very dense laser turrets that are basically doing nothing 99.9% of the time
queen cairn
So this is what that single number looks like. Just add up all previous numbers, and once a minute, multiply the whole thing by .9
Or I should say, time step
Max's example was 0.1 over 10 ticks
So like, you have two pulses on, four pulses off, intuitively, you should be 1/3rd
If you're taking the 10 tick average, if 1 out of 3 ticks is on, you should have about 3.33 ticks over that time frame
It's pretty clearly approaching 3.33 here
summer zinc
what do the single numbers represent? the amount of steam in steam tanks snapshotted at that moment in time?
queen cairn
Pulses, the blue line are input information, that was my steam count
Orange is the moving average
summer zinc
you want to calculate the amount of steam you are consuming over a 10 minute window right?
queen cairn
Yep
Each tick, that might be -200, or -1000. The variability is INSANELY high and if I do it tickwise I'll get garbo
Jfc I've barely changed in the past 5 years
Aight here's the EMA circuit, it's actually only like 4 or 5 combos and I didn't even do it well, now that I look at it. Old me had work ethic tho
You can see C wobbling like crazy, the >0 is to filter things out because right now the system is actually filling up.
If I measured both input and output side, I'd get zero lol
gleaming quarryBOT
queen cairn
"Delay steam by one tick; subtract"
C is literally the tick-wise discrete differential
It's kinda just measuring the slope with extra steps lol
summer zinc
bit tired and drawing a bit of blank but whats the downside of using just a regular averaged steam consumption over the same 10 minutes? i can probably arrive at this answer after a good night's sleep but thought i'll ask here and think about it later
queen cairn
How would you implement such a thing?
summer zinc
🤔 just thinking about how i go about calculating the average steam consumption with factorio tools is giving me a headache
queen cairn
Serious question
summer zinc
yea lmao after i asked that question i thought about how to go about calculating it and... 🤔
queen cairn
😉
summer zinc
i guess thats really the very very first step
nvm i think that question might eventually require its own thread and i should stick to sushi blood belt mechanics for now and leave the puzzling for that question another time
queen cairn
Probably combos is an appropriate spot for it but you're going to get people dropping EMA on you instantly for a reason, and your question is "what is that reason?"
I mean, that it's tough with factorio tools should be apparent, but I think the interesting part is why it's tough
summer zinc
like my thought process is how would i do it manually by looking at the info given in the various windows and then extrapolate it to the combinator level. for steam, i would probably look at the total amount of energy consumed over e.g. 10 minutes (i think time interval depends on forecasted energy consumption beforehand). then you can calculate the steam consumed proportionally. then it becomes how do i calculate the energy consumed? and it's by looking at power graph, but if power graph is not a straight line, then it's something like area under power graph that represents energy consumed
but if im just looking at the steam storage tank levels and how fast it's falling...needs bit more thinking
queen cairn
All good so far, especially the how do I calculate the energy consumed part. You can read accumulator charge
But days are on the order of 10 minutes, I forget exactly how long but it's within an order of magnitude
summer zinc
because right now i have no way to tell how fast i am draining the steam tank. analogously, if i am looking at it manually with 1 minute snapshot windows. i can see it drop 25k, then 23k, then 21k, then 19k, etc. i can conclude i am drawing approximately 2k steam per minute
queen cairn
And accums won't discharge if you've got turbines hooked up directly
queen cairn
This is stepwise difference. Every tick, delay the value by one tick. So I have this tick's steam, and last tick's steam
summer zinc
but, if it starts 25k, then 23k, then 19k, then 13k, then 11k, it starts to seem random and i think that might be where some sort of weighted/moving average comes in. because the power and consequently steam draw is not a straight line
queen cairn
yeah, I'm going to use your numbers and ignore the 10 minute part b/c it's still relevant. 25 to 23 in a minute means 20k, 23 to 19 means 40k and you're under 10 minutes steam already. Then realbad for the 6k difference, then back to 2k again
summer zinc
this is about as far as im getting with this sort of problem, then that's about the point where i just say, yknow what, im gonna set the inserter to just refuel reactor when steam falls below 5k and not deal with it until i am ready to tackle this mental problem
queen cairn
XD
I think the hard problem is actually measuring power consumption
But steam consumption is directly linked.
summer zinc
ya its kinda sensitive to big spikes and i am having big spikes
queen cairn
Steam consumption, I can measure
summer zinc
like the green chip factory restarts and suddenly im looking at an extra 0.5-1GW power draw for maybe 3-5minutes, then im unable to consume that much GC, and automatically shut it off
queen cairn
So about the hidden problems of scaling up 😛
"Oh just paste it a few more times" lol okay, sure
summer zinc
of course the easier answer is always just have it always on, but wheres the fun in that. so i keep these things around for when i feel i am ready to handle the challenge
queen cairn
Hell yea
summer zinc
same for reactors as well, of course the easier answer is basically just mine every single uranium ore patch and never think about reactor fuel cells
queen cairn
lol yep. I have no regrets about building that nuclear control circuit though
I'd never use it, but I still love it
plain vault
i know the conversation has kinda moved on from it, but i think i've perfected the sushi circuit
subtle meadowBOT
plain vault
i fed a row of assemblers with this at 64x speed for 15 real-time minutes and it didn't break
sideloading onto a yellow isn't strictly necessary, but i found it spread the reds out a bit nicer instead of making big blocks of reds on the belt
summer zinc
got a full string with the infinity chest for input materials and the machines?
subtle meadowBOT
plain vault
that's with editor extensions mod
plain vault
i think it will import fine, you'll have to replace the loaders yourself
that's how modded imports usually work
summer zinc
hmm didnt have the udnerground belt thingy i guess thats from the mod
will do my own infinity chest
plain vault
this should be all vanilla:
subtle meadowBOT
plain vault
the filter inserters to grab red circuits are probably not necessary either, honestly
summer zinc
srry cant be of much help right now but maybe i set it up wrong
my brain just fried attempting so many different versions of it
will try to see if i can get any insights from all the attempts over the weekend
it always seem to run into this micro stuttering issue
are the combinators supposed to look like this
ill try again later with the 3rd string you updated for vanilla
plain vault
the combinators seemed to be working fine in the video initially. the little sets of 4 or 5 reds are what i get too
i suspect the clog might be from how you're feeding your assemblers, the inserters are too busy grabbing greens and they let reds get past them
summer zinc
ya and when they do, without a loop, it just fucks the machine at the end of the line
and it cascades all the way to the very top
wonder how i should go about fixing this 🤔
the inserters are not consuming a belt evenly (obviously) but i missed that finer detail when i was thinking about how 12 machines consume 0.8762 blue belt worth of 
because that consumption is not even
plain vault
feed your assemblers with two inserters: one stack inserter, one filter stack focused on reds
summer zinc
i just operated blindly in rates
plain vault
i removed those filter inserters from my own assemblers and it clogged immediately
summer zinc
ok will try but for now im off for the night ...thanks for your suggestion! i will try all options and hopefully add them all to my bag of tricks
i wonder at what point someone should formalise all these nuggets into a better article on the wiki for sushi, there doesnt seem to be a resource discussing all the different methods to achieve the same end (W:X:Y:Z ratio in a belt). whether its splitter ratioing for loop, or combinator magics it feels like its much more useful than balancers
queen cairn
i removed those filter inserters from my own assemblers and it clogged immediate...
Side note, even if you didn't need it, I would still recommend filtering both inserters for performance reasons
summer zinc
not sure if mod or initial string didnt have the filter inserters, i think that was the first one i copied
now that i think about it filter inserter should have been also a pretty obvious and easy solution to test out earlier 🤣
queen cairn
lmao I'm always hesitant to give you tools you didn't ask for
summer zinc
yeah i mean you could, but there's also a decent chance i might prune / filter it out too. especially if it looks overly complicated and i have to spend more than 1minute digesting
queen cairn
The filters are all required in this build to maintain i/s rates.
You can see the regular stackers on the bottom fucking around
fiery portal
Technically measuring the whole belt is still blood belt… it’s more about the method of addition than the method of measurement
queen cairn
Technically measuring the whole belt is still blood belt… it’s more about the me...
Huh, ok. Noted
Idk why you'd do that, but okay lol
fiery portal
Also you can definitely still do time bucket averages in like 10 combinators, sliding window averages is the hard one
Also, did you see my train circuit post 
queen cairn
I did, I need to dig into it
summer zinc
wheres the post? reddit?
fiery portal
Also you can definitely still do time *bucket* averages in like 10 combinators, ...
Well, not hard, just a massive number of combinators
fiery portal
wheres the post? reddit?
summer zinc
ah. way too advanced
quick question, whats the maximum number of greenchips an inserter can put into a blue chip assembler?
should i limit the stak serter hand size to a multiple of that number?
queen cairn
quick question, whats the maximum number of greenchips an inserter can put into ...
lol, big ol depends and I have no clue the answer with your 
builds
It depends on machine speed
queen cairn
There is also that. I don't remember the formula offhand but it's documented
plain vault
i think, anyways
queen cairn
That sounds simpler than what I remember
queen cairn
lmfao that's the fun part, like 90% of my knowledge is not documented in game at all
summer zinc
Did not now speed affects
2 craft is easily observed when you try to handfeed machine. Notably reactor production for me
plain vault
actually 30 seconds of prod would be tons of items, i must be wrong about that
summer zinc
Cause faster to move 10000 plates on a dime to quickly produce reactor
queen cairn
actually 30 seconds of prod would be tons of items, i must be wrong about that
Yeah 30s on a fully beaconed BC is a ridiculous amount, more than stacks. Stack size plays into it but idr how
summer zinc
actually 30 seconds of prod would be tons of items, i must be wrong about that
Maybe its the lower of the 2?
plain vault
i think it's just 2 crafts, plus some extra from inserter hand size
queen cairn
You do get higher target based on speed. Let me google
summer zinc
Is hand feed limit correlated to inserter limit
I know they are different
Not sure if related , though
I know handfeed is a slight amount more than 2, that much i can remember but inserter always fills to a certain amount that is much less than 2 craft
But i dont know what
queen cairn
This is related
First, let's calculate a "maximum crafts" value x equal to x = 1 + 1.166 * assembling speed / base duration for this recipe, but it can never be less than 2 nor larger than 100.
Source; /u/FunnyGamer3210 ? lmao wish they'd linked source
summer zinc
And it seems that once an inserter decides to put more items in, it will put them in even if in the meantime (during the swing) the conditions were met. how is it so fuckin complicated
So if i got two inserters it could potentially be over the limit?
queen cairn
Yes
It's simplified for the sake of the inserters performing better. You don't want to have to interrupt them, it's a game optimization
Once they swing, they swing(for the most part)
That's why that inserter interaction the other day was so weird to me. it disabled, and continued to swing? I thought it would stop once it had those items in its hand, but it completed the motion, it just stopped picking up items.
"Swings full hand" i get. "Stops entirely" I get. But that's a weird middle ground
near crown
Source; /u/FunnyGamer3210 ? lmao wish they'd linked source
The source is a developer on the forum, see https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopic.php?f=6&t=50086&start=80
queen cairn
The source is a developer on the forum, see https://forums.factorio.com/viewtopi...
YEA BOIIII Thank you for the google-fu
fair gull
I can see both double RC and wide stretches of pure GC in the belt - I think this sushi maker isn't done with the warm-up
(yes, I'm back from work, the meeting was kinda short)
the last assembler should also have at least a second input inserter
I only ever used this kind of sushi on one lane. It's part of the reason I made the 2:9 version.
this is what the 2:9 sushi maker is intended for
give me a second
gleaming quarryBOT
fair gull
you make 2:9 sushi, use only one lane for the assembler stack and the other one can be full GC
inserters have to go on the side where the RC is, or you'll be in trouble
quick igloo
I feel like every time you post a BP I have the urge to hide behind Holy Water
fair gull
the right place to hide when around holy water is "submerged in" 
summer zinc
Oh my
summer zinc
I only ever used this kind of sushi on one lane. It's part of the reason I made ...
Cool thanks ill run both again after breakfast
summer zinc
im still stumped how do i stop this from happening 🤔
i tried a splitter that only allows red to go down the bottom but that didnt work either
or do i always need a collector chest/tray at the end of sushi like this to prevent the jam
and the belt to assembly inserter for the last machine is disabled whenever the chest has items in it
i need a blueprint for this LDS thing to see what the filter inserter to chest is doing tbh
queen cairn
I don't think it's solvable at all without loops for this kind of ratio? Maybe there's something I'm not seeing
summer zinc
i can't figure this out
where's schmees version of the solution, he said his doesnt jam i have to scroll up again
queen cairn
I guess you might be able to make sure GC's always end up in the chest
summer zinc
probably this one
ran it for a bit and can see pooling at the end
also the last 4 machines are barely working although maybe schmee might be on to something. one extra machine at the very end to catch leftover perhaps
gotta try something with the chest i still have no idea what the chest does in the picture of thyme's
the full one he sent earlier
queen cairn
It's to prevent the thing you're seeing
queen cairn
No it's blacklisted. So they've got 2 item sushi on the one lane, and they're blacklisting copper, so they can run enable/disable
summer zinc
damn that pic is so tiny i cant see shit
summer zinc
ok so theres two circuit cable connected to the belts. there is somehow plastic in the right chest. and two filter inserter emptying copper off the belt
queen cairn
Hmmm the enable/disables not right, probably
Ahhhh it's 
Oh 
works too I guess, it doesn't compare copper to copper, that's smart. My bp should do the same thing then
summer zinc
i need to replace underground with a belt to be able to read its contents though...hmmm
still not sure why the filter inserter is only enabled when copper is equal to plastic or steel
summer zinc
why is red chip going past when i set this belt to only enable if there are no red chips on the preceding belt?
nvm maybe its pulse/hold issue
it was, indeed, pulse/hold
summer zinc
B/c then it's 4
what is 4? copper?
queen cairn
Plastic or steel
If either is 4 then you got issues
Prolly smarter to test against 4, not copper
summer zinc
i havent done the build for LDS so im not sure of the significance of 4
queen cairn
It's the number of items on a halfbelt
summer zinc
he wants a 2:5? 1plastic:1steel:5 copper?
but, if either plastic or steel is 4, what would removing copper off the belt into chest do?
queen cairn
Copper's on the other lane
summer zinc
why not remove plastic or steel till theyre less than 4
summer zinc
OH.
ive been using whitelist exclusively all this time it didn't click, lol
the images doesnt really say whether its whitelist or blacklist 
how do you even infer that its blacklist
also is a 1:10 ratio supposed to look like this, kinda uneven looking 🤔
i swaer im too fucking dumb for this
queen cairn
the images doesnt really say whether its whitelist or blacklist <:shoob:32581013...
Picking up the copper would be silly
summer zinc
tried blacklisting/whitelisting either red or green and there is still clump
need to keep that inner belt flowing but idk how to get the inserter to make that happen
how does set filter even work? there is no condition on how the filter is set
its flickering between green and red but i cant see the pattern
The filter inserters can additionally set their filters from the circuit network: up to 5 items whose corresponding signal has a positive value are whitelisted.
As long as there is >=1 of the item on the belt it will set filter to that item?
queen cairn
The inserter is enable/disable on =copper
or =4
The point is to detect that a thing is there
summer zinc
why doesnt the chest ever fill up with plastic or steel over time and clog like it does on the belt?
queen cairn
B/c when it's operating normally you shouldn't have 4 on the belt
4 on the belt is a failstate
summer zinc
but arent you just moving the problem from belt to chest when that happens
it doesn't fail when something like this is moved to a chest because? chest has priority to empty into assembler?
now im thinking what exactly is the failstate on a 
feeder belt...it's not something that can be captured on just one belt right? since the ratio exceeds 8
queen cairn
`And it seems that once an inserter decides to put more items in, it will put th...
Remember this
They both swing and the count's adjusted to +2 or so, for that item
Belt inserter should go back to mostly normal
queen cairn
Belt and chest inserter
Into the machine, the next time it demands that item
The thing that that circuit is detecting, is a specific fail state. With copper on one lane, and 50-50 plastic and steel on the other, if the plastic/steel lane has four of anything, that's the fail state for the input inserter to LDS
summer zinc
ahh my brain hurts trying to think about the uneven scenarios because of this inserter weirdness. like inserter has 2x of a craft...it finishes a craft, then inserter swings to grab 12 once, then again. so now machine has +24 of greenchips when it only needed +20 to refill back to 2x craft
queen cairn
May I resuggest loops again? 😛
summer zinc
i mean i already know loops work right
queen cairn
The loop back is as good of a belt to input from as the belt out
summer zinc
i kinda wanna avoid the spaghetti that comes from looping multiple arrays of chips back into the same feeder belt
theres also that
it wasn't so bad for red chip production but i think it will be very bad for green
because its 87-90% green chip exit loop in the event of red chip input removed
queen cairn
The cool thing about rate/loop sushi is that you're never demanding more than you're recycling
summer zinc
for an array of 12 unit, one loop isnt bad. but when i multiply this array to 10 (i need 120 machines) then it becomes a complete nightmare
i kinda hate that i have to loop 4 full belts back to the start for 8 arrays in this build, it's probably 1array:1belt loop for bluechips
queen cairn
Cut the build in half vertically, loop back the inputs under the outputs
summer zinc
not to mention some truly horrifying spaghetti that i dont even want to untangle now that i re look at this
summer zinc
i still remember the basics of how i did this so i can probably re-create it but i wanna avoid it if i can
summer zinc
whats a braided loop
summer zinc
im not even sure what is happening here but suddenly changing the filter inserter for a plain old 
and it doesnt seem to jam anymore
queen cairn
Well, if it's long term stable, it's long term stable
I think you're going to end up with an inner belt of RC though
summer zinc
its even producing at almost perfect calculator rate
i dont even know wtf is happening
queen cairn
Probably if you run the belt in starvation mode it'll also be fine
+1 machine
idk how long for though
summer zinc
like i see this happening very often but it ALWAYS clears up
the RC building up at this end
after couple cycles of the machine both inserters will clear it completely
i havent seen the last 3 machines ever stopping yet on 1x speed observing for about 5min, but pushing x64 speed for 1hour seems like no jams yet
i dont even know what is happening anymore
how does changing one inserter and not relying on chest even clear a problem like this?
3 hour simulation now
fiery portal
So, your best bet is going to be putting the mixed side of the belt on the side that inserters prefer to take from
summer zinc
i dont get it what magically changed, i feel like i need some takeaways from this to apply elsewhere
fiery portal
Then have a very slight excess of greens from your ratio
summer zinc
i think slight excess of greens would always be a thing for this particular ratio
fiery portal
The side of the belt thing should make a big difference, especially if you remove the filters
summer zinc
im off by less than 50 blue chip per hour out of 8.7k production, i think it's an acceptable productivity loss. it's "close enough" so to speak
i see the red chip build up at the last 1-2 machines but it always cleared up in time to not cascade down the rest of the belt
i noticed the 2nd to last machine jamming before this clip, so i removed the greenchip filter inserter and replaced with a generic stack, and that just solved it completely
fiery portal
Which should be fine because if the red chips back up a tad, the other lane is still therr
summer zinc
the question now is do i need 2 full green chip belts for this because it seems only one lane is moving out of all the belts
add a couple of starvation protection at the start of the belt i think im gucci
fiery portal
I would still only use one lane for reds from the start 
But have it be mixed red and green
Ah you are
It’s just sneakily at the end
summer zinc
seems like cutting off red still can potentially cause issues
this is the state where it will never recover
ok after some replaying and checking what is happening it looks like it's because when the red chip first re-enters circulation, they get completely stripped from the belt
this means that everything that piles up at the end (and it is a substantial amount) will all be green chips until red chip finally makes its way to the end of the bus
i think it is similar to priming/warming up a belt that thyme talks about
🤔 wonder how i can allow the front of the bus inserters to only grab red chips off the belt, AFTER the last machine had its share
just read inserter, link to the rest, and only enable if 
>0? or 5? etc.
queen cairn
Have you watched to see if the RC throttler is backing up at all yet?
summer zinc
you mean during normal operations or when i test for starvation?
queen cairn
Normal ops
summer zinc
just read inserter, link to the rest, and only enable if :advanced_circuit: >0? or 5? etc.
Well that sucks. it worked for when RC is starved to resume operations. but full operations this won't fly because it syncs all the machines to feed only together :/
hang on i'll check now
not sure if this fits the criteria of backing up. i think i mentioned this earlier but there was a lot of belt that basically isnt doing anything, i wonder if that can be cut out/trimmed
summer zinc
whats cutting the belt, also this is thyme's design, not mine. i have to pick his brain over this particular loop but i think i understood some of the design process when i was working the steps yesterday
i only got slightly past the 2^N compressor, maybe 2nd or 3rd step in reducing elements
had to take a break after that
what i noticed is these lanes arent doing anything
i wonder if its similar in idea to what my forced sideloading for my GC build is doing
this is something i had in mind since there is never more than 1 belt worth of green chips flowing in the final output belt
backpressure should ensure that the output ratio is still the exact same yes?
versus this, two full belt of
but damn. finally some actual headway in the problem. i'll have to figure out how to solve starvation scenarios but at least the full operations side is fixed at long last
queen cairn
Rather than limiting RC on their own, you're using GC as well
Idk how that one will behave in particular
summer zinc
which one? the throttling?
summer zinc
sorry im a bit preoccupied with the starvation side before i head out, its boggling me atm
you want the BP string to run in your lab?
queen cairn
lol I have my own sushi problems
I thought I understood rate sushi but this isn't doing what I thought it would
These throttles are doing just fine
summer zinc
how the fuck do i paste it after i copy
queen cairn
c-v?
summer zinc
doesnt seem to work for me
i click copy, then i type /blueprint string
ctrl v, or paste, both doesnt do shit
do i need permissions to use this bot or something
subtle meadowBOT
summer zinc
ah. lol
queen cairn
So it is only caring about the one lane, that's something I guess. I don't know why they shoved GC in there as well
Probaly to stop the RC overload problem I was thinking about
summer zinc
i guess the chest trick is still useful after all
helps to re-prime the belt in the event of RC shortage
queen cairn
Enable on GC=8?
queen cairn
Ratios are supposed to shake out over time
summer zinc
well. if i run into RC shortage very frequently maybe it will jam (it being the chest). but that would require shortages several times in the span of restarting a belt right after
i thought if the inserter always grabs GC from the belt it will never give the chest a chance to clear up
queen cairn
Yeah there are a lot of possible fail states. It might run for 30 hours before jamming, who knows
summer zinc
or do they "take turns" to load GC into assembler?
queen cairn
so about wake lists...
summer zinc
wake list?
queen cairn
When the assembler is "full" it'll give a "green light" to the input inserters, and they shut down
summer zinc
just noticed another GC belt hiding out here sneakily 😦
queen cairn
So when it activates those input inserters, it'll say to both "Try to swing on GC"
Yellow is trying, here
Green is "I'll wake you when I need you." Both the chest and belt inserter should swing at the same time, from the same wakeup call
queen cairn
Yeah
summer zinc
its not really about taking turns then. cool
queen cairn
This guy, has been activated by GC, but is waiting on wire
summer zinc
hmm thought backpressure would take care of this but apparently not
queen cairn
So the inserter isn't going "Got a wire yet?" all the time. It's waiting, and the wire machine will tell it when there's a wire
summer zinc
need to somehow force the belt to use the underutilised far side of the belt (farther from the inserters)
queen cairn
I'm not saying I don't trust that mixer, but....
summer zinc
truth be told i have no idea how that works just yet because i didn't cook it up but i have to run the steps to be sure
the design process at least
there is of course some black magic involved that i dont reall yknow about
the [thread] (https://discord.com/channels/139677590393716737/1107699713672749106) thyme linked deserves its own re-read
queen cairn
It didn't look that dark, just a reducer. I don't know how it's balancing the GC is the thing
There are priorities I don't see, I think?
summer zinc
no priorities at all
i clicked every splitter i dont even know it myself
well seems simple enough to utilise both side of the belt. forgot about this
experimenting with it, I think it has to do with the frame timing of when the splitter grabs items. When the loop on the left is full, it can only put items on the right. It grabs an item from the left, which allows the loop to move, which frees up space to use the left output. The "output zone" of both sides of the splitter move at the same speed, and so they will have enough space to move an item at the same time [00:32]calciumwizard: throw in that splitters alternate their preferred input and that the last successful movement was left-to-right, so when an opportunity presents itself to make any movement it wants it will try to do right-to-left first. [00:39]calciumwizard: basically, it will always try to put an engine on the loop because the last thing it did was take an item from that side and put it on the exit
i think i have to re-read 10x what calcium wizard is saying to know wtf is happening with this loopless and no input priority splitter
the output pattern has been very consistent regardless of whatever i do to the input or output belt
but that intermediary belt looks like pure chaos
zooming into this part of the belt that is the only constant/moving, it is 1:1 here. then it goes through some extra series of splitters that dilutes 1:1 further
i dont know what is the remixing that happens here and what is the output ratio. i wnt to say 1:3? but it looks like 1:4 sometime
queen cairn
That sounds like actual black magic
summer zinc
i cant tell what is the purple line ratio
1:1 RC:GC + Another splittered pure GC lane = ....???
i wanna say its 1:3
queen cairn
1:4
summer zinc
but truthfully its just a shitty guess
queen cairn
1/2 + 0/2 = 2* 1/4 in splitter math
summer zinc
like i have to walk through the mind of a splitter like a toddler to come up with what is the output
queen cairn
But then it's a loop so you refeed 1/4
summer zinc
take 1 RC, take 1 GC from other full GC belt. Take 1 GC from the 1:1 RC/GC, then take another 1GC from other full GC belt
queen cairn
It's not doing the normal alternation
summer zinc
🤔
queen cairn
It's doing some tick based stuff that reminds me of black magic
summer zinc
is that what calcium wizard is talking about
queen cairn
The thing calcium is talking about sounds a lot like black magic
It's not
But it sounds similar
summer zinc
so what is actually happening here because of the loop back
without the loop back, it is actually 1:3 on the purple line?
queen cairn
Excellent question
summer zinc
1RC:3GC?
queen cairn
Some recursive shit I don't want to work out
queen cairn
It recurses
So you have to find the asymptote/limit
Another way of saying it is that it's a differential equation, the result depends on the result.
summer zinc
it reaches 1:4 after the "priming" / "warmup" that thyme talks about?
it will eventually reach a steady ratio but it is not stable at the start?
queen cairn
Probably?
queen cairn
Yeah the other one is being filtered by the underground
summer zinc
the inner lane has not moved an inch i think
outer* lane
since i started
oh ya. underground does block it from moving
but i dont understand. why does doing anything to input, or output belt not throw the whole thing off
it just shrugs its shoulders and continues like nothing happened once i put all the pieces back
queen cairn
lol idk if you realized this yet, but there's a reason I have a couple basic classifications for sushi, and then lump everything else into "advanced sushi"
Most of the implementations require specifics beyond the basics
summer zinc
also. while the purple line is 1RC:4GC. the output belt doesnt look exactly like 1:4 on that lane. the grand total still averages out to 1:9? or 1:10?
queen cairn
These rates? i got these rates correct. I ain't fucking with these rates rn
queen cairn
Yeah I wouldn't have figured out 2/9 from that
I can't figure out 2/9 now, that I know it's 2/9
O.O
That's the correct ratio, I'm just... baffled
summer zinc
i could really use a pin in this thread there's too many important messages i need to scroll and find to re-read to understand wtf is happening
queen cairn
I would assume it's part of the loop out of a 1:8
It might be out of 1:4 but I doubt it
If you loop a 1:8 output into one of the inputs it starts to recurse.
summer zinc
i cant find the original message 😭
queen cairn
I usually use the search function for associated keywords
summer zinc
damn, didnt get the detailed process of how this came about. have to wait.
queen cairn
So this is lore lol
summer zinc
its most likely the same process that he detailed earlier i might have to try my hand at it
`the design process seems to be:
- build a 2^n:1 compressor, fill the inputs with the ingredients in the desired ratio; fill the remaining input with a helper item (makes spotting mistakes during the design process easier)
- reduce number of distinct inputs
- loop second output of last splitter to all inputs taking the helper item
- rearrange and slap a starvation protection on it`
queen cairn
There's some fractional balancer theory work going on atm
Ngl I whipped out a 5/32 no problems with the algo
Way easier if you think in binary
summer zinc
i dont even think he bothers with fractional. he starts with 2 RC infinity chest, 9 GC infinity chest. Fill other belts with "dead / filler items" until you get a 2^N number
so for 9 belt GC, he probably did 9 belt GC + 7 belt wood. then trimmed the fat
queen cairn
lol yeah, I was using mitru method
summer zinc
im gonna have to do it myself now
summer zinc
sadly no
but thyme method is easy to grasp for a complete noob
if even i could understand i think any beginner with some factorio experience can see the pattern he went for
queen cairn
I guess this isn't a 5/32
It's got 1/32, 0/16, 1/8, 1/4, 0/2
So I guess (1+4+8)/32
13/32
Yep, it's a 13/32
So if you convert something into a fraction with a base that's a power of two, the top is the belts you select.
summer zinc
💀 im ded i dont know how the wood just gets removed and its somehow still the same ratio
queen cairn
Yeah that's a good question
summer zinc
step 2 to step 3 requires such a massive leap im gonna have to wait for thyme to spell it out like im 5
queen cairn
I'm barely past this binary thing
This one is 146/256
So it's packed belt reduction
It's pretty easy to see that this does nothing and so could be completely reduced, yeah?
It's like reducing fractions in a lot of ways. 4/4 is 1
That's 8/8 for instance
summer zinc
ya i only got this far
8/8 reduce to 1 belt yes
im not sure if i got it right for this particular reducing exercise but i think so
this was my own mental walk through the step to see whats happening for 2:9 specifically since it wasnt detailed
summer zinc
i think i did something wrong with the wood stuff
queen cairn
I don't understand the loopback on those yet
summer zinc
or is that the red
fiery portal
Move the red circuits to replace two of the woods if you want 2:9
queen cairn
You feed the proper output ratio back into the "Dead" inputs
summer zinc
that's 16:9
oh yes i see it now
queen cairn
That sentence sounds worthy of being high off your ass
/r/totallyNewSentences
fiery portal
yeah you're both off lol
fiery portal
did i reduce it right
You're missing a splitter and wood before the second GC
summer zinc
fiery portal
you must have three total wood
fiery portal
(you can technically split one of them in half)
summer zinc
why 3 and not 2? i thought 4 lanes of wood can be reduced back to 1
fiery portal
The four aren't going into a single splitter
summer zinc
nvm i see it now that i coloured it
the green square is completely unbalanced
is that right
fiery portal
yep
summer zinc
right side, green square, has way more than the left side supposed to be
fiery portal
Maybe wood is the collectible for the next paper mario game
summer zinc
helper item (makes spotting mistakes during the design process easier) thyme says wood is like filler or helper but im not entirely sure how to jump from that to removing it completley in step 2-->3
fiery portal
hmm, message link time
queen cairn
fiery portal
oh wait, I think I get it
queen cairn
Okay I think I got the reduction this time
fiery portal
The helper item gets replaced by the output, right?
queen cairn
The helper item gets replaced by the output, right?
See, maybe YOU need to get high
fiery portal
You don't know I'm not
queen cairn
The loopback is ratio
.
summer zinc
is this correct
fiery portal
You don't know I'm not
(give me an hour)
fiery portal
is this correct
yeppers
summer zinc
i think so. helper item essentially gets filled by the loope back output (my guess)
queen cairn
You can reduce further if you group the GC and RC
summer zinc
it is supposed to represent dead space that you can use
but the dead space MUST be filled with the same ratio
queen cairn
Try to group the keepers as much as possible, or group the dead items
fiery portal
Yeah, makes sense. You can't unbalance it like that because yep ^
summer zinc
of items that u want on the belt
fiery portal
That's the recursive part
queen cairn
I like this method now that I get it
summer zinc
so the loop back is to fill the dead space on the belt?
queen cairn
ye
summer zinc
with the exact same ratio as what is already on the belt (the non dead space, or the alive space, whatever to call it)
ok some lightbulb just went from off to slightly dim in my head
now that i say it i am completely lost again trying to implement. what is the deadspace of this red+wood splitter representing now?
it cant be GC because it will throw the whole thing off
or is it supposd to represent the rate limiter (half)
queen cairn
Try swapping the 2nd GC, with the rightmost wood
summer zinc
...
queen cairn
They're at the same tier, it's the same value
summer zinc
ohhh ya
i didnt realise all the same starting tiers can be swopped
in positions and still get the same result. well. if they meet the splitter
fiery portal
Try swapping the 2nd GC, with the rightmost wood
no, that'll give too much green
It's not at the same tier
summer zinc
oh theres a splitter right after
fiery portal
There are four splitters between that green and the end, while only 3 for the red
queen cairn
The two outermost here?
summer zinc
fiery portal
Not same level
queen cairn
OH
queen cairn
lol I kept mine on the same level for that reason
summer zinc
this is some high level shit that thyme managed to break down and im just playing connect the dots
fiery portal
To think about this a totally different way
For each column, its contribution to the output is (1/2)^(number of splitters between itself and the end.
So, you've got 1/2 + 1/16 + 1/16 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8
summer zinc
so what does the wood in the wood+RC splitter represent if there is dead space in there
summer zinc
i thought wood is supposed to represent empty gaps that i can use to fill with the same ratio as the upper part of the tree/input sources
my words are starting to make no sense even as i re-read what i just said
fiery portal
Yeah I’m lost too
summer zinc
😵💫
put it another way. how do i go from current step, to removing wood completely
and putting loops in the right places
i cannot deduce where to put loops correctly
fiery portal
send bp?
queen cairn
summer zinc
this is the part that thyme shows his steps in his design process
ok sec
thyme details his whole process here
fiery portal
Yeah you just split and fill in the outputs
summer zinc
im re-reading it multiple times
summer zinc
so you're saying if i delete the 3 wood chests here i still will get the same results?
fiery portal
No
fiery portal
You have to feed the output back to the input
fiery portal
send bp and I can show you, but I ain't building it from scratch
subtle meadowBOT
gleaming quarryBOT
summer zinc
queen cairn
You MAY need to bring it down to singlebelt?
queen cairn
Not that output, but yes
fiery portal
queen cairn
So max how did we get black magic again
summer zinc
honestly im not sure why thyme think's is so cursed. 5 splitter for a sushi belt isn't bad imo
fiery portal
Black magic is my specialty
queen cairn
This sure as fuck looks like black magic to me
summer zinc
its not even half as bad as 6 combinators
fiery portal
Oh lol
queen cairn
It's sorting
fiery portal
Splitters preserve input order
It's just coincidence
It's like, Factorio BOGO sort
queen cairn
summer zinc
splitting this output lane doesnt break anything?
summer zinc
oh 🤔 are we just reversing the merge step by splitting it backwards
fiery portal
what
queen cairn
Thyme's return was split, I think
summer zinc
say we started with 3 wood lanes
we remove it and we have to replace it with 3 lanes from the output
but it is not as simple as simply replacing 3 equal output lanes
the blue circle is looping back MORE of the ouput lane back to this particular loop
fuck me i dont have the words to say
fiery portal
So, for the leftmost one, half of it will be backed up and sent to the other side
summer zinc
im trying to understand the fundamental difference between the splitter in red circle and splitterless in this uploaded picture
fiery portal
The whole thing fills up and backs up
otherwise it wouldn't back up on the belt
That splitter isn't cutting in half
summer zinc
because they definitely are not the same thing
fiery portal
it's just a belt
summer zinc
but if it backs up wont it work the same as a belt
fiery portal
So remove it, and it's obvious that the green circuit is actually 1/8 instead of 1/16
fiery portal
but if it backs up wont it work the same as a belt
Yes that's the point
The loop back will fill up entirely and act like a full belt
summer zinc
oh wtf that is diabolical
queen cairn
So the critical problem I see with whatever I've got right now, is that this black magic sorting will fuck up both ratios
summer zinc
i forgot about that
fiery portal
Refer to my screenshot again :p
summer zinc
the loopback is exactly the same ratio as the output belt?
fiery portal
So the critical problem I see with whatever I've got right now, is that this bla...
shouldn't
They should exactly cancel out
summer zinc
ya that was originally the point i believe. of the wood
the loopback MUST be the same ratio as output belt
fiery portal
and it doesn't actually move items from one lane to the other
queen cairn
This?
fiery portal
The total sum of reds on either side MUST remain the same at the output
It physically can't be different
queen cairn
You'd think so
fiery portal
That's not the output
fiery portal
gib bp
gleaming quarryBOT
summer zinc
why am i not getting any reds on the looper belt
its the same setup right? just no underground to jump across the chest
queen cairn
I think we may have discovered black magic 2.0
No, call it black magic 1.9
Just before 2.0
fiery portal
output is still balanced
queen cairn
lol but why
queen cairn
Mine's balanced too but it shouldn't be
fiery portal
Splitters physically cannot move items from the left to the right side of the belt
queen cairn
It should be taking more greens
fiery portal
why am i not getting any reds on the looper belt
give it a minute
queen cairn
Why is THIS ratio not fucked?
summer zinc
fiery portal
wait, hold on
summer zinc
no
fiery portal
I do get some, it's just sporadic
summer zinc
its been several minutes
fiery portal
It still doesn't matter
summer zinc
red never goes into the loop
queen cairn
Gift horse, mouth
summer zinc
wtf is happening over there?
fiery portal
if the loop back is all green.... it's identical to having wood that's labeled green
summer zinc
is that what sparked thyme's discussion over a year ago
fiery portal
The math do be mathin
queen cairn
if the loop back is all green.... it's identical to having wood that's labeled g...
I fukkin guess but I still don't get how one lane is red and the other is ratiod
fiery portal
.... it'll all be green?
summer zinc
queen cairn
Compression sushi gets overloaded if you remove an input
fiery portal
It should randomly choose
Might need to put a bend in the green circuit to the left
queen cairn
I half get it
It's demand based, that's the calciumwizard quote. The top belt only moves when it gets demand placed on it
summer zinc
this is the final simplified form i should get right?
summer zinc
i mean, this is what i copied
queen cairn
That's so super fucked
summer zinc
if i paste the longer form it should work exactly the same
queen cairn
My head is fucked. It's black magic and it doesn't matter and it can't be used
summer zinc
no i need to make the reds on one side
queen cairn
`experimenting with it, I think it has to do with the frame timing of when the s...
This, max
fiery portal
My head is fucked. It's black magic and it doesn't matter and it can't be used
it's funny because the black magic is functionally just "1=1" but written in a really convoluted way
summer zinc
1=1 but you throw in a bunch of operations like 1 * 0.5 + 1* 0.5 isnt it
or maybe its the 1/2 + 1/4 + 1/8 + 1/8 thingy you mentioned
queen cairn
All algebra is, is a lot of fancy ways to multiply by 1
fiery portal
That's why we have conservation laws so you can throw away all the bullshit equations and know that everything works out in the end to cancel out to 0
summer zinc
Maxreader (Angel's - Tech Mode): To think about this a totally different way For each column, its contribution to the output is (1/2)^(number of splitters between itself and the end. So, you've got 1/2 + 1/16 + 1/16 + 1/8 + 1/8 + 1/8
this is basically 1
fiery portal
yup
summer zinc
(1/2)^(number of splitters between itself and the end. need to digest this bit lol
queen cairn
Feels like we're headed back towards that power of two binary bullshit
fiery portal
Maybe I should have studied math instead of chemical engineering
fiery portal
Feels like we're headed back towards that power of two binary bullshit
🧑🚀 🔫 :🧑🚀
summer zinc
im thinking thyme purposely chose to start this way cause its easier to think of splitters that way
queen cairn
I'm barely past this binary thing
So I did a piss poor job explaining this
summer zinc
🧑🚀 🔫 :🧑🚀
🌎🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀
queen cairn
I feel like this is the instructive image
summer zinc
this does feel a bit like math homework for real
queen cairn
lmao fr
summer zinc
i want 4:11 sushi belt. using the bla bla principles you learnt earlier apply and design a series of splitters and loops that gives me this exact ratio. go.
queen cairn
4:11 is actually pretty reasonable
fiery portal
i want 4:11 sushi belt. using the bla bla principles you learnt earlier apply an...
basically what I've been doing with Mitru in the other thread
summer zinc
thyme approach seems exactly like this. you can generaelise his approach once you got it down
it all looks the same
fiery portal
🌎🧑🚀🔫🧑🚀
queen cairn
This should be 4:11
summer zinc
or rather his approach is one of the general approaches to solving any demanded sushi belt
queen cairn
ok now THIS is a problem
Guess not, it's 4:11
Welp, it works, I can tell you why it works. Ostensibly I understand it. I'm still freaked
summer zinc
the red rectangle is the recurring pattern that always stays and is 4:11 right?
fiery portal
This should be 4:11
now yer cookin
summer zinc
he made it within 2 minutes of me specifying 4:11 lol. he already got the fundamentals down im still eating crayons here
fiery portal
Crayola is more nutritional than RoseArt
summer zinc
but it does go to show how useful the general approach of thyme's is
once you got the algorithm down it's basically just copying the algorithm to make the sushi of your choice
fiery portal
If only the single item slowdown method was as algorithmic
queen cairn
The binary's not bad
summer zinc
yea i look at the thread from time to time and it still looks indecipherable
fiery portal
The binary is algorithmic but so much more wasteful
queen cairn
I mean, how much more precise do you think you're going to get?
fiery portal
I have an insight about twice a week
queen cairn
For the convenient ones, the ones that are small enough already like what mitru is doing, okay sure
But like, how many bits of precision do you want?
In practice you can usually go over or under, depending on your needs
summer zinc
im still not even clear on the red circled splitter honestly. i look again and ...bleh
fiery portal
In practice, You're not going to need a denominator higher than a few hundred
If you circle it in another color than red, does it still look as suspicious?
queen cairn
im still not even clear on the red circled splitter honestly. i look again and ....
1/8+1/16
or w/e it is
It should be 5/16
so 1/4+1/16
summer zinc
its kind of reversing the output loop to get back to the original step isnt it? not sure if im saying it correct
fiery portal
You can think of it like going in reverse from the end, sure
summer zinc
no thats not right
fiery portal
That's what I did to get my initial equation thingy
summer zinc
it's preserving the output loop ratio maybe because of the splitters
queen cairn
2/16(rc) +9/16(gc) + 5/16(mix)
so you need a 1/4 mix and a 1/16 mix
1/8(rc)+1/2(gc)+1/16(gc)+1/4(mix)+1/16(mix)
summer zinc
3 wood lanes. leftmost wood lane goes through 4 splitters to get to output belt. 1/16
Feed output loop back to leftmost lane to replace wood. output lane has to go through...4? splitters? to preserve the original ratio. from output splitter back to the head
queen cairn
so its 1/2 +1/4 + 1/8 + 1/16 + 1/16
gc,mix,rc,gc,mix
Okay that's how to simplify them
summer zinc
yeah the fact that the two mixes / output loop are different ratios is whats throwing me off
thats why the splitter is necessary
fiery portal
obfuscation complete
summer zinc
anyway is all the time i have for now. but i will keep working on trying to understand so i can copy the approach
queen cairn
Cya!
queen cairn
Okay I figured out how to make a mitru balancer
queen cairn
Rate sushi is still my fav, ngl
fair gull
also is a 1:10 ratio supposed to look like this, kinda uneven looking 🤔
this looks like 1:9 on one side, so 1:19 total
fair gull
im still stumped how do i stop this from happening 🤔
filter inserters probably make your problem worse, not better
fair gull
sushi isn't well suited for high throughput situations, especially with a wide ratio like 1:10
fair gull
like i see this happening very often but it *ALWAYS* clears up
the soft option would be to use multiple inserters at the last assembler. this ensures the belt keeps moving even with some clotting
don't use filter inserters, as they only work for either ingredient, not both (they make your problem worse by increasing clotting)
my box contraption follows when I'm done backreading
fair gull
what i noticed is these lanes arent doing anything
those lanes aren't doing anything because they're blocked by the undergrounds
only the left lane is in use
leeching off the left lane was easier than sideloading the inputs, so I did that
queen cairn
lol hey so Thyme, thanks for showing me those tricks
I used both the tricks you showed us
fair gull
also. while the purple line is 1RC:4GC. the output belt doesnt look *exactly* li...
the exact pattern you get to see depdends on how you primed the maker
the pattern is definitely consistent and will repeat
fiery portal
Oh hey we’re finally both awake at the same time
fair gull
You feed the proper output ratio back into the "Dead" inputs
That's a good way to put it, haven't seen it that way myself.
I'm not entirely sure if that might be able to mess with the output ratio and something else "sets it right".
But loops in balancers do the same thing, so ..
queen cairn
That's a good way to put it, haven't seen it that way myself.
I'm not entirely s...
You may be interested to know that even though it black magic sorts, that doesn't matter
fair gull
ok, no
that's nice for understanding, but since the loops can be any combination of input items (generally, for this specific implementation it's either a loop of the very same items or entirely GC - definitely not the same as the final output)
queen cairn
CalciumWizard's explanation sold me on it working even though I thought it shouldn't
Dead item is dead item, it doesn't matter what the item is.
If you put it on the dead stack you have to take it off. It took me like a half hour to realize it doesn't matter that you're messing with the ratios on the loopers. If you put it on it's because that one took an item, so the matching cycles shakes it out
fair gull
Yeah, calciumwizards explanation for that last splitter is right - I haven't tried to work out the steps of other contraptions though, it get's way more complex with bigger sushi makers
in my original contraption engines (?) go around the loop exactly once, then leave through on the output belt
but in the 2:9 maker, the GC (or whatever other items get there during priming) won't ever leave
queen cairn
My brain still refuses to intuit that it's functional and freaks out every time I see the black magic sorted belt
fair gull
it's not black magic though
it's all very sane and rational - it's just our brains can't handle it
not enough RAM or something
queen cairn
fair gull
I promised a box solution ..
the second lane full of GC irks me - with LDS it was a different item I could blacklist
queen cairn
Tbh I think that example from Max is the one that explains it most intuitively, if you can figure out why that works with pure GC on the return
dead belt don't matter
fair gull
that loop matters a lot
queen cairn
That it exists does. What items are on it doesn't, I don't think
Like, this is sorting gears and steel and pipes for some reason
fiery portal
Dead item is dead item, it doesn't matter what the item is.
This is what you call an invariant
fair gull
well, the items that happen to be on it are determined by the contraption - you could work out (or predict) which one it's going to be
fiery portal
Functionally it doesn’t matter what happens in the black box as long as certain things are true
queen cairn
well, the items that happen to be on it are determined by the contraption - you ...
Yeah, this step, I don't know how to do
I can make a thing and see, but I couldn't engineer it
fair gull
me neither - I actually stopped thinking much about the how it works
I'm convinced it works and I have a recipe to produce any ratio
I only think about the implementation at this point - everything else turned into a black box for me
queen cairn
You only take an item off when you put an item on is the critical part of why the black box works but I'm also at black box stage
summer zinc
this looks like 1:9 on one side, so 1:19 total
Think it was 2: 9 belt but cant remember at this point. I only know it feeds 12 machines nonstop with my beacon setup and produces 144 bluechip per minute almost exactly what calculator says. So the ratio is correct
I'll keep working on step by step of your guide to making a 2:9 belt on my own and then hopefully i can apply to the next few stuff. Like LDS, flying robot frame, etc
fair gull
the second lane isn't in lock step, there's lots of leeway
summer zinc
I forgot where i was with the build tbh
I needed some sort of starvation protection to re prime the belt iirc
The red chip lane will clear out and it does cause issues
Oh nvm i rmb now
fair gull
there is a starvation protection
summer zinc
I fixed it with a chest to catch excess
Yea there is but when it resumes the belt like sort of resumes a semi priming process
fair gull
however that should also block the second lane
because right now I really don't like that both lanes can move independently
summer zinc
Forgot whrte the screenshot was but i think its there will tag when i wake up for now its off to bed
Ya
Both lame move independenlty which caused issues
fair gull
they have to be in lock step when RC is on one lane only
summer zinc
Lanes
queen cairn
they *have* to be in lock step when RC is on one lane only
If you have even slightly too many machines for the belt, that should cause full flow, which is good enough?
fair gull
so using 1:10 might be prefered
summer zinc
There is a clip where i show the build running x64 for 3 bours or so
It is stable somehow
fair gull
If you have even slightly too many machines for the belt, that should cause full...
would have to shut the entire ASM stack down before backpressure slows down consumption
summer zinc
Even if belt not lockstep
queen cairn
It is stable somehow
Honestly, that's the bar for functional lol
queen cairn
Okay 10h test on blue sci is done
summer zinc
Produces within spec of caluclator. Jam proof. Good enough
fair gull
because RC is on the near lane, which should prevent it from being an issue
but I'm not convinced it's more than should
summer zinc
I dont e en know if theres truly a rare case where it jams or it just is jam proof
queen cairn
I don't know if you can prove it's safe, but if it jams at 127 hours, you can prove it's not
summer zinc
Ya
But if it jams at 127 hours i think its still in the category of good enough for me
fair gull
running for a long time alone is not enough testing
try braking it with different operational states
summer zinc
I tried the 4 scenarios tbh
Remove rc remove gc remove sulfuric acid and full blue chip belt
It resumes after like nothing and runs per usual
Thats as far as i know how to test and br3ak shit
fair gull
Remove rc remove gc remove sulfuric acid and full blue chip belt
have you tried partial removal?
tested shock behaviour?
slow changes of operational states
not trying to scare you, it might be good enough - but I don't think you did enough testing to slap an "unbreakable" sticker on it
fair gull
rapid change of operational state
queen cairn
Feeding too little red circuits or green circuits
summer zinc
Ah i did talk about that one
queen cairn
I bet it behaves real weird with partial GC flow
fair gull
Also partial removal
slowing down input/output instead of taking it away entirely
summer zinc
I think if it restarts and runs out too soon, and then restart and run out again quickly, eventually the catch all chest at the end might clog
I didnt test power slowdown
But yeah its not something i will post on forum to show off as unbreakable
Its unbreakable by my stupidity so thats the metric for me
And most of the time it is i under supply one of the raw inputs
fair gull
what's the idea behind the box? The last belt tile has to provide all 3 ingredients for the inserter
copper is no problem because it has a dedicated lane (so the filter inserter is set to blacklist copper)
plastic and steel both have the be on the last belt tile though
so whenever only either of the two is on the belt, we want the inserter to put that item in the chest
logically, this is the case when the other item exists 4x on the belt (same as copper)
so the filter inserter is enabled on "everything = 4" - copper is ignored, so only plastic/steel is transfered
until steel/plastic shows up
the recipe for LDS uses more copper than plastic and steel combined
so even in the case that the belt is sorted in a way that the filter inserter puts all the plastic and steel in the chest for the second inserter
it won't ever be a problem because inserters are "taking turns" when interacting with crafting machines
ah, there's more to it. copper is the first ingredient, so inserters try to fill copper first
which only the primary inserter can do
the secondary inserter will have filled plastic and steel way quicker (fewer items and chest instead of belt)
summer zinc
Hang on, it was to solve for a particular problem when red chips input is cut off and resumed
Ill record a clip after breakfast
summer zinc
@fair gull it seems i already recorded an example clip here #1277595827547799552 message
Basically, starvation protection works but anything on the belt downstream will result only in one half of the belt getting emptied (the near half). And the two lanes are not in lockstep like you said
However, upon resuming, naturally the top lane (with the mixed RC+GC) will start flowing again, but it requires a certain "priming" action, if not it eventually causes this
I watched the replay to try to understand what happens, and basically its the machines at the top of the chain will empty the belt of all red chips, leaving only greenchips to go downstream. It's a pretty substantial amount
The chest at the end serves to keep the greenchips, especially the inner lane, flowing so RCs eventually reaches the last machines in the array (Machine # 11 and 12 in my case). And whatever is in the chest after belt is re-primed following resumption of input will eventually clear out
The caveat is, if you resume/cut off too often (how often? idk), i suspect there will be a rare case eventually where the chest is completely full of GCs (because chest takes time to clear out GCs). And when that happens, we go back to what happens in the clip and the array will never recover after any input shortage, RC or GC.
queen cairn
TBh I'm impressed you got it working as well as you did
summer zinc
well you did say to tag you when i finally get a non-looping build working 😄
im not entirely sure if the chest can be the fix-all to nonlooping builds but i was throwing shit on the wall and seeing what stuck at that point
the linking-all-INinserters together didn't work unfortunately. it worked for when there was shortage, but didnt work when normal ops resumed
queen cairn
Chest is an excellent defense for many sushi belt ends
Chest would not work here lol
summer zinc
damn lol yeah i doubt it will work here. but a lot of tricks/tools in factorio have their niche uses (IMO) and i might not consider that to be one of them. sushi is very neat trick for feeding the same multi-item recipe to a row of beaconed buildings because of space constraints but using sushi to do everything would be a bit overkill like using balancer for every multi-lane unloader/merger of belts
blue chips is especially useful and i think the higher- tier products all benefit from using sushi to some extent cause of the low-throughput, multi-item recipe costs. electric engine, flying bot frame for yellow science comes to mind. LDS of course another great use case
engine like you mentioned, also fantastic. you dont need that many pipes/gears and most of the belt is consumed/dominated by steel plates. i dont know the exact ratio
queen cairn
Yeah, I've never done sushi to that extreme before, and you're right that it's a tool for the job
summer zinc
maybe i can get away with recycling the greenchip ratio of 50/25/25 for engine too. like steelplate/gear/pipe
of course what you done here would also be a very interesting challenge run
sushi only everything. but hella cursed and truly arcane sorcery only for the most advanced
i wont even attempt to do it until i mastered the basics
queen cairn
Yeah, there were a few techniques I just picked up which allowed me to do some things a little differently than I normally would, and jouster inspired me with some targeted many item sushi stuff
I couldn't have done this without thyme in particular
summer zinc
yeah this thread has certainly shared some interesting techniques that i doubt would exist anywhere else on the internet
i didnt find anything like this although the use case seems kinda obvious
you need it for several recipes where its not an even 50/50 sideload ratio
it definitely has a lot more applications beyond science
queen cairn
Yeah, the engine ratio is pretty commonly known among people who do sushi, but the extra theoretical stuff from Thyme
summer zinc
but majority of my search results came up with science sushi
a lot of the rest did have interesting stuff but its all combinator and i must admit im still a bit too dumb for it
queen cairn
Anywhere all of the inputs and outputs can fit on ONE belt, is an "appropriate" use of sushi
queen cairn
Tucking all the DI in... that's extraneous lol
summer zinc
for sake of recordkeeping this was the particular solution i came up with and stuck to
I wanted to continue working on understanding the 2:9 from scratch method but right now I'm going to try to improve on collapsing/making this whole thing slightly smaller. Like, essentially there will be less than 1 full belt of GCs going into output belt, so it should be possible to reduce the entire bunch of 2 lanes of GC into 1 split into however many loops?
then there will also be the case of RC, because eventually in my final build with 100 -120 machines, it will only require less than 1 blue belt worth of RCs
meaning i can probably get away with a sort of "main bus" kind of idea where 1 blue belt of RC from my train station will waterfall(correct word?) or divert certain amount of its RC resources into an array of 12 machines each
queen cairn
One belt is one belt, doesn't matter if it's on 12 belts or 1
If you need less than one belt out you need less than one belt in
This is true for both the things you're talking about 😛
summer zinc
yea but the idea is to fork off into 1 saturated into 12 emptier belts with as little splitter or space footprint as possible
queen cairn
If you're using a backpressure design, and in total consume less than the input, you'll get backpressure
summer zinc
ye i have to rely on backpressure for it to fork properly and ensure all the 12x12 will get the necessary red chips, especially the ones furthest down the line
wonder if it causes any issues if i cut off RCs though, have to test
queen cairn
Depends on where you cut them off
summer zinc
but for now i need to remove the abstract 1 red infinity chest and see how i can fit 12 splitters into the thing
and also work on tiling the design, those pipes i kinda saw it would be a problem
queen cairn
Urr, how do I show this
summer zinc
Not sure but it's good. im just detailing my task formyself in case i forget what im doing
only got 1 hour to work on this, unlikely to complete in that time
queen cairn
Not backpressure on top, backpressure on bottom
4 yellow lanes is enough to carry a blue lane. 3 YBs and they'd be full. But four half yellow lanes is not a blue lane and so it backs up.
You're stipulating that your belts will back up. That's a design choice you're making
Your belts have ends, allowing backups. Loops cannot back up if you do them right, they keep moving if properly recycled and limited. You're also not in belt starvation mode. An extra machine on the end above what you're feeding, would clean up most of the odds and ends because the belt is no longer stopping, it's undersupplied.
The ramifications of your design choices are always fun to deal with 😄
summer zinc
That is vaguely familiar phenomenon that I eventually dealt with in the greenchip design
I cant remember how or what I did
I might have to re-cross that bridge when i start tiling the build and see what happens again
this was the simulation of the greenchip build
with the rightmost being the start of the bus (do i evne call this bus? i really dont know because im using trains to move stuff to big ass subfactories) sourced from the train station, and then i add extra belts worth of raw inputs as the calculator suggests the copper runs out. the fact that iron/copper is not looped didnt seem to have an impact on the downstream manufacturing
e.g. 64 machines for this particular build uses 0.95 belt of copper. so that's 4 arrays of 16. then on the 5th array i have to merge a full blue belt to supplement the 0.05 belt leftover that is trickling its way into the 5th array. the splitter of course takes input priority from the 0.05 and the rest is supplemented by the full blue belt supplementary supply, and backpressure would force the excess from full blue belt to continue down the main bus to supply the remaining arrays, until its time to resupply with another blue belt, and repeat
i made some alterations of thyme's original design to be closer to the tileable bus version for now
queen cairn
I feel like what I said about compressed/not compressed being a design choice probably was worded poorly b/c I tried to focus on the fundamental there
If you demand less than a full red belt, w/e you're inputting, it will be compressed.
summer zinc
the compression occurs on the main bus though so it shouldnt be a problem?
this was what i was thinking of when talking about splitting the RC (except i tile it vertically and not mirrored). it feeds an entirely new loop
the loop can never take more than the 2/9s ratio of RC from the main bus
queen cairn
Right. So you can feed four. Not 5.
queen cairn
Not backpressure on top, backpressure on bottom
a la
It's not the size of the belt, it's the demand. Belts are an upper bound
summer zinc
oh right 🤔
queen cairn
Also you're asking for particular lanes
Probably opposite lanes b/c flip, which is smart
So it's 2/9 of a lane
And you could feed exactly four and a half of those
summer zinc
oh youre right only a lane is being used
i wonder if it means i can split+forcesideload into more usable belts?
or maybe it will cause the whole priming process to fail
queen cairn
So you're taking 1/9 from two lanes. The material is there but the input belt would be in free fall
summer zinc
or after priming the loops it will never break?
queen cairn
If you back up even slightly down chain, it'll back up
queen cairn
Loop is loop, max and I worked out some of the recycler theory from thyme's designs
queen cairn
And if you flip it with f, it'll use the other lane. Convenient
summer zinc
greenchip will kind of vary the loop pattern
queen cairn
lol honestly, the whole dead item thing is complicated and mathy
summer zinc
interestingly even if this happens on the output belt the system still recovers back to its original output rates
queen cairn
I barely understand it myself. Like, I see what's happening, but I don't believe it somehow
Sure. rates is rates
So like, it'll trend towards the same point when operating normally
summer zinc
its so fascinating to watch it go. like the spaghetti is truly horrific but recovering from the ugly system shocks is fascinating to watch
queen cairn
Just for you I power crashed it
The entirely loaded sushibelt is coming back to the recyclers. The recyclers prioritize the return.
Because the rates in on recycling are forcibly the same as the output it's perfectly synchronized
summer zinc
the rates in on recycling are forcibly the same as the output it's perfectly synchronized this is the trick that loops uses to maintain the same flow and never jam right?
queen cairn
Even with these extra wires on the belt. It never overloaded because they got priority.
summer zinc
like i think i kind of get it on a fundamental level but don have the words to say it properly
summer zinc
because thats exactly what the green chip+ plastic recycler for the plant is doing
i loop 4x 25% spaced out belts for 4 arrays to merge back into 1 full blue belt to loop (save on 4 parallel belts) then split it back up again into the 4 arrays' feeder input belt with priority taking from this recycled looper
so it will never exceed 25% on the belt and never exceed 1 total blue belt from 4 arrays