Speculations

[crystal dune]

Womp womp

[stray wharf]

Nobody ever said it had a 50% prod bonus.

It wouldn't even need one, since it doesn't use any recipes that other buildings use. They just adjust the outputs accordingly.

[crystal dune]

I did

I was hoping you could make biochambers, rocket turrets, etc. inside it

[stray wharf]

Given that it has only 2 module slots, it's much more like the centrifuge than the EMP/Foundry.

[crystal dune]

Oh, glad someone else has also made this comparison

So I feel a bit less crazy for feeling like the planets are in pairs…

/ and /

Pair 1:

• Tricky terrain that constrains your building space
• A lot of heavy oil cracking, but not a lot of water
• Lifeless or almost lifeless
• Most resources are extracted from one
• Special building is a large, fast, powerful building that improves existing recipes

Pair 2:

• Normal terrain
• Plenty of water
• Full of life
• Normal mining and smelting
• Special building is a 3x3 thingy that only/mostly processes the planet’s unique resources

[indigo fog]

I like this sort of symmetry

[crystal dune]

It’s of course 1000% unintentional and confirmation bias’d into existence, but I think it’s a fun thought

[tardy quarry]

the 2kg ore is just a base line they started and later being adjusted

we then modified many things a lot

[misty falcon]

It's weird that is 0.5 kg, a non-integer number

[stray wharf]

They probably don't store it as "weight" so much as "rocket capacity" (how many fit in a rocket).

[tropic basin]

or use fixed-point floats, which are ints in disguise

[tardy quarry]

they do need to show how much total weight is used tho

I remember that dev mentioned has rocket capacity of 300

#1177597309572366396 message

[stray wharf]

Yes, they need to show the weight. But it doesn't need to be necessarily stored as weight. Weight or rocket capacity both contain the same information, and you can convert one to the other. The question is which is used internally.

[tardy quarry]

isn’t weight more straightforward

[stray wharf]

Caught up in that question is what you have to do to mod in a higher-capacity rocket silo. If "rocket capacity" is the core value, then the silo would probably have a multiplier relative to a full base rocket. If "weight" is the core value, then the silo would just have a weight.

But then... how does the Factoriopedia display "rocket capacity" if there isn't one singular correct rocket size?

[tardy quarry]

rocket mk1 capacity, rocket mk2 capacity etc.

[stray wharf]

But how does that work? If you create a new silo with a higher capacity, do you now have to also register this with the many subsystems that display capacities? That could get pretty ugly from a UI perspective. Since the capacity is part of the tool-tip, having 3-4 of them would take up a lot of vertical space.

[tardy quarry]

or the wiki just show u the default capacity

[stray wharf]

So which capacity gets to be the default? If you decide that you want 500kg rockets and 2000kg rockets, removing 1000kg rockets entirely, is there some interface to pick one as the "default"?

[tardy quarry]

and u can have silo that can handle double or higher number of rocket weight

the default would be 1000

but u can have 0.5 sized silo?

[stray wharf]

It makes a lot of sense for "capacity" to be the core value, with "weight" being derived from it using a fixed 1000kg conversion factor. It's easier for a user to define and play with as well.

[tardy quarry]

ur not wrong

that would explain why we have capacity of 300

it would be weird to define an item with weight 3.3333kg

[stray wharf]

Wait: at a 300 item capacity, you can effectively launch 1500 green circuits (and 150 red circuits) through recycling. Is the capacity for green circuits higher than that?

[tardy quarry]

well

[tropic basin]

Even if you could, it'd effectively cost you 225 BC. How much does a rocket cost?

[tardy quarry]

surely green circuit is higher than 1000

[stray wharf]

Where does 225 come from? I thought the cost per launch was 1/20th of vanilla, so 50 (without prods).

[tardy quarry]

what u lose during recycling

[tropic basin]

225 is 75% of the 300 BC you can squeeze into the

recycling get's you an effective 75 BC worth of GC and RC into orbit
the rest is lost as extra cost

[stray wharf]

I already factored in recycling losses. When you recycle a blue circuit, you get 0.5 reds and 5 greens.

[tardy quarry]

the point is that u need to pay the recycling loss to compress the items

[stray wharf]

Those are the recycling costs.

75 blue circuits worth of greens is 1500 greens.

[tropic basin]

You send 300 BC into orbit, which after recycling is GC and RC worth 75 BC
the 225 BC is the extra cost you loose during recycling

[tardy quarry]

u need to send 300 processors to effectively send 75 processor ingredients

[tropic basin]

the extra cost can be weighted against another rocket launch with GC and RC, which probably will be cheaper

[tardy quarry]

u can make 6 rockets from 300 processors

[stray wharf]

And my point is that the only way for that to be the case is if the green circuit launch capacity is > 1500. Which it could be, but we don't know it.

[tardy quarry]

no?

[tropic basin]

if a rocket fits 1k RC, it can fit way more than 1k GC

[tardy quarry]

u sacrifice 75% of materials u sent to space which could have been used as rocket parts

and all that just to launch less rocket

[tropic basin]

A couple FFFs ago it was mentioned that being able to send later items into space to recycle them "at a profit" was a non-goal for the algorithm that determines rocket capacity.

Wube is several weeks ahead of you Alfonse :)

[tardy quarry]

I would assume 2000 for GC

[stray wharf]

Presumably plates have a 1000 capacity, if ores are 500.

[tardy quarry]

the thing is, u can’t compare 300/4 ingredients vs how many u can send in a single rocket, because they have different amount of logistics cost, for the former u need to pay a rocket and 225 to get 75 ingredients to the destination, for the latter, u just pay a rocket and send whatever to the destination

u can’t neglect the fact that u r sending 300 but 3/4 of them are wasted as a cost

u could have use those processors for something else (for example, make more rockets)

and just send basic circuits

[stray wharf]

Packaging and unpackaging are fixed, one-time costs: for a certain throughput of materials, you need X assemblers and Y recyclers (and recyclers are quick). Rocket launches are continuous costs.

[tardy quarry]

that doesn’t make sense at all, u need to do packaging continuously if u want to send items continuously, if not, then rocket is also a one time cost

[tardy quarry]

u need to pack 4x the ingredients in order to send 1x to the destination

that’s a cost itself

u basically pay 3x of ingredients per 1x ingredient u send in the process

packing is not free, not just infrastructure cost

if u ignore the number of rocket u need in both cases, the most obvious difference is that u r voiding items when u use recyclers

and voiding items is not a one time cost

just like rockets

[serene sage]

maybe they mean after you hit the productivity cap?

then there's no loss involved when packing/unpacking

[timid crescent]

By the time you hit the prod cap it's not unlikely you'll be launching rockets with for only 25 each

You'd need to be saving a ton of rockets for the 3/4 loss recycling step to be worthwhile

And the rocket capacity system was made specifically to prevent that

[stray wharf]

It occurs to me that the recipe for nutrients from Jelly-Yum is pretty insane. You make 50 of them at one biochamber (more if prodded). Like, how long does it take to even put those onto belts?

That suggests to me that stack inserters being on Gleba makes a lot of sense. Even with the issue of stack inserters possibly holding stuff for longer than is needed, it would make removing the 50+ items from this recipe way faster.

[crystal dune]

Compared to 1.1 at least, is this 50 actually the new highest quantity of an item in a single recipe?

I think landfill, LDS and blue chip previously held the record of 20

[tardy quarry]

satellite recipe

[tardy quarry]

also this

[crystal dune]

Ah, I should have remembered blue belts

[tardy quarry]

centrifuges are also super expensive

almost forgot the silo

[crystal dune]

Yeah looks like I mostly had intermediate recipes on my mind

[stray wharf]

I think in terms of crafting time per input/output, the Jelly-Yum->nutrients recipe wins handily.

OK, the reactor is probably faster, but that's in terms of inputs, not outputs. And none of those spoil 😉

[tardy quarry]

tbh nutrients have 5 min spoil time so I would worry too much about inserter output speed for this particular recipe

remember that devs mentioned there will be some items that it matter to optimize short distance belt

which means the spoiling time for those might be within a minute

[vivid turret]

If agri science takes nutrients as an ingredient and not only a fuel, you really need to use nutrients that were just made.

[tardy quarry]

direct insertion is a thing tho

[stray wharf]

Even for the red mash->nutrient recipe, the ratios seem pretty terrible for direct insertion. I don't think you're going to be able to direct insert 50 nutrients into enough Ag science makers for that to work.

[crystal dune]

Biochambers being 3x3 doesn’t help either

[stray wharf]

Let's look at some charts about Gleba:

This chart represents all of the known recipes and materials on Gleba.

The ovals are hand-harvestable resources.

The boxes are derivatives of those resources, and the octagons are things that we know exist but we don't know how they get made.

[vivid turret]

We know quite a lot less of gleba's processing chains compared to other planets so far.

[stray wharf]

Note also that this graph was generated by a tool (Graphvis). The left-to-right flow was an option, but the placement of those things weren't hand-selected.

Here is my attempt at filling in where those octagons come from:

The green cube and the orange blob are alternative ways of processing the fruits.

They are functionally at the same tier as mash and baked jellynuts.

I like this because it provides a clear hierarchy to everything. Fruits go though some traditional processing, which may or may not return seeds depending on the process. That then gets digested by our "wriggler-in-a-box" device to crap out some useful material or tier 2 intermediates that can be further digested.

The main issue I have with this is that Jelly-Yum->nutrients recipe. I previously assumed that the third nutrients recipe was from the orange blob. That would make sense because that's how you get jellynut seeds.

See, in order to keep your farms running, your initial fruit processing needs to generate seeds. But some initial fruit processing doesn't generate seeds. If the seed-bearing intermediate can be used to make nutrients, then you have a useful dump to use to keep doing the seed-bearing process.

But without nutrients as that dump, it's unclear how you can maintain your jellynut seed count.

The main issue I have with the furnace also generating seeds (besides the idea that baking a seed will result in a usable seed) is that it means you can't hand-craft the recipe that makes seeds. Which means that, in order to make your first biochamber, you have to throw down a furnace.

Which admittedly you probably already need to do, since you likely need some gears, plates, and circuits to build the thing.

But it would still be strange that you can extract yumako seeds by hand and hand-harvest eggs from rafts, but jellynut seeds have to be obtained by a placed building.

[weary widget]

I'm impressed by how much of gleba you've guys figured out, from a small handful of images/videos lol

[stray wharf]

It only took one picture for us to figure out most of Vulcanus (at least, up to the science pack).

As I draw up a similar graph for Vulcanus science, I realize: it's way easier and simpler than Ag science.

[crystal dune]

I’m still curious about pink science’s fluid thing…

A science with a byproduct would be very novel for base factorio

[crystal dune]

I see you still think the orange blob isn’t made from the orange mash

[stray wharf]

1. Jellynuts are called Jellynuts. Yet we've seen precious little "jelly" come out of them.

2. Yumako are red, not orange. You could say that the orange is closer to the mash color, but it's also pretty close to the pale pink of jellynuts.

3. Where do Jellynut seeds come from?

[crystal dune]

Alright, I should have specified mash instead of fruit

Edited

Also green cubes are much more jelly-like than that shape

[stray wharf]

It could be a product of the yumako mash and green cubes. But that means there's at least one missing core intermediate.

[crystal dune]

Actually, if I had to guess, I’d say it could be the reverse

Green cubes are made from orange blob

Like, you turn the mash into orange jelly, then orange jelly+jellynut in some form makes green cubes

That’s kind of what I imagined

[stray wharf]

The nice thing about Graphviz is that it's easy to create a new graph.

Here's a quick sketch of your idea:

It seems very... horizontal.

By contrast, this is what Vulcanus science looks like:

[weary widget]

yeah vulcanus is trivial compared to this.

makes me wonder what other toys gleba unlocks as a reward for the added complexity

[stray wharf]

If you take the biochamber and plastic recipes out of my version, Gleba science isn't that complicated.

Gleba science only gets complex when people theorize that green cubes are some deeply nested fruit derivative or are an egg product or something. If you start from the assumption that green cubes are of the same tier as baked jellynuts and yumako mash, it's not too complex.

[weary widget]

I see.

[stray wharf]

I was starting to build a graph like this for Fulgora, when something occurred to me: how do we actually know that Fulgora's science requires supercapacitors? I looked back at my pictures of the base, and at no time do we see exactly what comes out of the requester chests feeding Fulgora's science pack manufacturing. The solid input(s) could be anything: supercapacitors, superconducting wire, or even just holmium plate.

[late sentinel]

We don’t know that much, no - only have assumptions.

[tardy quarry]

at least this is what we saw in the mp4, supercapacitors build near the science pack makers, with beacons and number of machines at similar scale. It would make the most sense if the science pack takes it as ingredient

its weird that the supercapacitor maker has outputting to tho

[stray wharf]

The thing is, if it took superconducting wire, then taking electrolyte makes way more sense.

The buffer chest thing is a common motif in the base though. No idea why.

[stray wharf]

Well, here's the version of the Fulgora production graph where the science pack requires supercapacitors.

The version without supercapacitors is a bit simpler. Though I suspect that there might be a second solid used to make science (maybe plastic just to be annoying 😉 ).

[tardy quarry]

is it possible that we combine orange blob with eggs to make green cube?

I think it would feel less satisfying if egg production is not needed for science

otherwise the Ag science seems too simple to make

[stray wharf]

If you could go into fuller details of that, I'll draw out a graph. In particular, where does the orange blob come from?

[tardy quarry]

my current guess: apart from baking jelly nut, u get jelly juice and seed from a recipe

[stray wharf]

In my version, it looks about as simple as Vulcanus's science pack.

[tardy quarry]

and u combine jelly juice with orange mash to get orange blob

perhaps if u also blend wiggler egg in, u get the green cube

theres probably a reason why its called jelly nut

and that’s because u can extract jelly juice

two possibilities:
1: jelly juice + orange mash = orange blob, jelly juice + wiggler egg = green cube, and orange blob is not used for science
2. jelly juice + orange mash = orange blob, orange blob + wiggler egg = green cube

for wiggler egg, my proposal is wiggler egg + nutrient = more wiggler eggs

[stray wharf]

OK: here's what #2 looks like:

Way more complicated than even Fulgora's pack.

[tardy quarry]

is it tho

isn’t that because u r putting biochamber and plastic in the graph

and also spoilage

[weary widget]

is the brain looking one the jellynut?

[tardy quarry]

yes

[weary widget]

k thanks

[stray wharf]

It only looks like a brain when it's growing. It looks a bit more nut-like (or pinecone-like) when its picked and on a belt.

[stray wharf]

Even if you ignore that, it takes 5 biochamber steps, plus 3 other steps. Vulcanus's science only takes 3 Foundry steps, one assembler, and one other to create carbon. Fulgora's (assuming the supercapacitor is used) takes 4 EMP steps, one chemical plant, and one Furnace/Foundry (not including whatever you do to get copper plates and plastic).

And as far as we know, none of the other planets' steps are Kovarex-like. Nor can they spontaneously turn into enemies.

Mine version requires only 3 biochamber steps, which means you can do it with just 3 eggs.

[tardy quarry]

wait your version assumes green cube came from chemplant?

[stray wharf]

Yes. It would be a non-seed-bearing alternative to mashing Yumakos.

So it's at the same production tier as mash and baked jellynuts.

[tardy quarry]

why would yumako turn green tho, thats not very close to red or yellow

and afaik red+yellow is not green

baked jelly nut is pink to dark purple

[stray wharf]

It's chemistry; it can do what it wants. Just like pink turns brown when you put it in an oven.

[tardy quarry]

light color turn dark makes sense. But I see no reason to give a huge color change like this without a clear reason in the game

[stray wharf]

You're putting way to much stock in color. Chemistry changes the color of things all the time. The yellowish color of light oil turns into the purpleish color of petrol just because you added water.

[tardy quarry]

red, yellow and purple for oils is more like so u can tell them apart, thats a clear game design reason

[stray wharf]

And the game design reason for green is because it's often used with brown (baked jellynuts), orange (the blob) and pale red (mash).

It needs to stand out from them.

[tardy quarry]

but for a new alien bio chemistry item that doesn’t have to follow real life chemistry, it doesn’t make much sense to have sudden color change without a thematic reason

[tardy quarry]

cube shape itself is enough to tell apart

and why not using a similar color from what its made from

#1240418991386787920 message
#1240418991386787920 message
idk but this convo I feel like is a soft confirmation that the egg will be involved in the core production on Gleba

where the green cube would fit perfectly

[stray wharf]

So you see a developer saying that they don't need circuits on Gleba and think "Kovarex but where buffering is really bad actually" is a situation where you don't use circuits?

Spoilage as a mechanic is sufficiently interesting to justify those statements; Gleba doesn't need to make people solve Kovarex without buffering to justify it.

[tardy quarry]

I think the dev was pointing out that doing that is not actually complex and doesn’t require circuit at all. We are used to think in the 1.1 way and have no idea how we should think differently on Gleba

rememer that no matter what we do, we loop spoilages

and we already need to do a small loop for asteroid processing before going Gleba

[stray wharf]

I read that statement as "no, we're not going to do things that require circuits on Gleba".

[tardy quarry]

and also kovarex at space science stage

[tardy quarry]

well, people can interpret it in different ways I guess

well will know how things work on Gleba eventually

[stray wharf]

I just don't get it. We've seen how the other two planets work, and none of them are nearly as complex as what you're trying to say Gleba is, even without considering spoilage or "Kovarex but part of your base goes away if you buffer". Just in terms of the number of recipes and steps from raw materials to finished science, what you've outlined is almost 2x as complicated as Vulcanus.

I don't get why you think Gleba needs this level of complexity over other planets.

On Fulgora, in order to mass produce EMPs, all you have to do is burn through tons of scrap. On Vulcanus, in order to mass produce Foundries, all you have to do is build BMDs (and deal with the fallout from enemies over that). On Gleba, to mass produce Biochambers, you have to engage with an intermediate whose mishandling can lead to enemies spawning inside your base.

I feel like that alone is a comparable level of complexity.

[tardy quarry]

on one had it may make Gleba the most difficult planet, on the other hand it could make Gleba the most interesting planet

there are still other elements on each planet (and the corresponding space route) so I wouldn’t say u can compare the complexity of different planets by just looking at their science production

enemy in its essence is something to punish u if u ignore part of the puzzle or fail to solve it. Just that it can be in the form of setup defense logistics or handling egg multiplication properly. I would assume both can be removed in the map generation enemy setting

[stray wharf]

Or maybe it's interesting enough as it is. Between dealing with spoilage even of the science pack, working with burner devices that make their own fuel, and managing seed stockpiles, there are already a lot of points of failure. I don't know what "Kovarex but buffering is bad this time" adds to that besides "more".

As it is, actual Kovarex, whose failure mode is that it just stops working, is probably the second most asked about problem, with "why did Advanced Oil Processing stop working" being the first. And now you propose that, to get started on one of the planets, you have to not only solve that, but solve it in a way that doesn't buffer.

I just don't see the devs forcing players to not only solve the actual Kovarex (for space science), but then later solve the Dark Souls of Kovarex.

And every time they screw up, they have to deal with enemies in their base and they must hunt for a new clutch of eggs to restart the process.

[tardy quarry]

‘everytime’ u r assuming that they never learn how to do it properly

[serene sage]

"enemies in the base" doesn't seem like a massive threat to me tbh, just include laser turrets in your factory to clean up messes

[young breach]

guess about tomorrows fff: it's about the space age event

[tardy quarry]

no Vulcanus enemies?

[young breach]

both?

[tawny snow]

I hope we end up getting that train optimization kovarex mentioned on reddit a while ago

[young breach]

#friday-facts message

[tawny snow]

someone should beeline for vulcanus and tell us what the enemies are

[winged pivot]

the event will take multiple days, most likely next week, if not post launch

[young breach]

or they are doing aquillo so it can't be leaked

[viscid ferry]

[weary widget]

LAN party event FFF tomorrow I guess?

with unknown things in some of the pictures

[young breach]

or first impressions from all the people at the event

[weary widget]

in terms of what they're allowed to talk about, thats what I'm looking forward to the most IMO

even if the answers have to be somewhat vague, just to read what people think about SA after having seen much/most/all of the content

[static root]

there was an event ?

[weary widget]

its ongoing https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sffBSNRGEa0

[viscid ferry]

it's for the next 5 days right?

[stray wharf]

I don't think the next FFF is going to be about this event. It's more likely to be the one after that that talks about it (so that they have time to gather and organize feedback).

[tropic basin]

They can't just ignore the event tomorrow.
They also can't not do a summary next week.

it'll be at least a paragraph tomorrow

[weary widget]

so maybe new SA content tomorrow along with that

[viscid ferry]

Maybe SA is limited edition and we've now missed the boat

[weary widget]

that would be messed up lol

[wet cosmos]

Huh did they talk about the event anywhere? Ive not seen it but feel surprised I didnt know about it, but looking from that video it seems to be a invite only typa testing

[misty falcon]

Check #friday-facts

[hybrid briar]

C'mon Vulcanus enemies

I'm not convinced but I made an implicit bet!

[lunar wind]

ping

[late sentinel]

I wish you’d bet money. Especially me. Bet me money.

Hmm… come to think I can’t take bets. It would implicitly violate NDA

[tardy quarry]

imagine everyone who attended the event start trolling in this channel

[misty falcon]

I actually want to talk but I can't!

[late sentinel]

hehe attending

[lunar wind]

until release I assume?

[misty falcon]

Until embargo end

[young breach]

and that is when?

or is that also part of the nda? xd

[hybrid briar]

I think "one week from before release" was mentioned

[young breach]

so by the last fff before release we will know all the big things, I think based on that

[tawny snow]

Curious about the one week before clause, you'd think the devs would want no spoilers until after the release

Btw must be funny re-reading the fffs with insider information

[young breach]

yeah that's why I think that they will reveal all the major stuff before release

you'll have to scroll a bit, if they say they can't say stuff it's bc they are at the event

[tawny snow]

#friday-facts message this leads me to believe there is going to be a lot of stuff not shown by the time the game releases

only 6 fffs left

[weary widget]

aquilo name confirmed + first blurry pic of the planet #friday-facts message

[tropic basin]

here's a different opinion
#friday-facts message

[lunar wind]

CSI - E n H a N c E

[hybrid briar]

I think it's more like they will release enough stuff to where it is incredibly difficult to remember what is covered by FFF or not

and giving a week in advance means they can stop worrying about secrecy and focus on any remaining issues for the launch

[tawny snow]

fair enough, still seems like there are going to be a lot of surprises on launch

[undone spade]

Sadly true

[stray wharf]

But it wasn't. It had 4 paragraphs and some pictures. It was mostly about combat balance changes.

[undone spade]

Yes true
But I am hungry of more information 🫣

[crystal dune]

As do I
Especially now that we know there is more content than many of us expected

But I shall wait 🙏

Maybe I misread/understood something, but it seems like the info floodgates will open 1 week prior to release, which I am happy to hear

[tawny snow]

would make agricultural towers produce less pollen? my guess is they won't, so no pollution mitigation on gleba, unlike nauvis

[stray wharf]

Ag towers can't use modules.

Also, pollution mitigation is called "stop making spoilage".

[vivid turret]

If farming is the only thing that pollutes, is now useful for reducing pollution.

[stray wharf]

Yes, but speeding up your machines also reduces spoilage, thereby reducing pollution. Both will be of value, but speeds seem to be more important.

[misty falcon]

Always was

[mint berry]

So items turning into spoilage produces spores/pollution? Interesting

Ah, like, less spoilage means less fruits produced required. Makes sense.

[late sentinel]

that’s what they meant

[deft swan]

Wild speculation/cool idea based on the "leak" from this livestream ||https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2244007047 at roughly 1:02:00ish||, spoilering just in case : ||There's only one immortal enemy on vulcanus, which just retreats after taking enough damage. The "pollution" on vulcanus is noise, and the enemy can probably burrow underground and pop up at various parts of your base, which explains the random laser turrets in lots of screenshots.|| In the lategame ||you can keep it distracted with artillery bombardments, since they can make noise far away from your base.|| I bet the bug in question was ||a way to actually kill it by dealing too much damage in a short timespan, by getting it to unburrow into a massive field of landmines or something||

oh yeah agreed. just wanted to be extra safe if anyone didn't think it was fair game

really the only think I took away from the "leak" was the fact that there was a bug surrounding that feature. what followed was wild speculation on my part lol

honestly I hope not. The devs seem to have done a great job with info control so far. I'm happy with the rumours that we've barely seen half of what's new in the DLC, which eases the concern that the DLC is rather small and some FFFs seem light or boring because there's nothing else to share. Anything the devs don't want to share I'm down to discover blind in my first playthrough

[misty falcon]

Only is my excitement

[viscid ferry]

Oof there was real distress there for a moment

But well luckily it wasn't that much of a leak, it was already obvious from everything that had been hinted

[fallow flint]

very interesting! definitley a solid theory, and absolutley massive if true

[thorn arrow]

Interesting indeed, but I hope not ||for a enmey that is impossible to kill. Altho making it so hard that it's not worth it, is fine for me||

[olive seal]

It might also have multiple phases with some invulnerability inbetween

[leaden socket]

||Maybe a super tanky enemy with 10M+ hp, that is very difficult to kill until you get to spam nukes / gun turret with U ammo||

[shrewd citrus]

10M HP is like, a lot though

[leaden socket]

At inf tech lv5, each gun turret with U ammo can deal ~14k dps

Considering the boss might have big size, nuke might actually be better, if carefully managed to avoid collateral damage

[shrewd citrus]

enemies also have resistances, both flat and percentage. just because you deal a lot of dps to something without armour doesn't mean you deal the same dps to a behemoth biter or a stomper

[leaden socket]

That's true.

At endgame tech, U gun turrets can deal hundreds to thousands of damage per shot, so flat reduction will probably be irrelevant, but the percentage resistance will still be significant

Also the boss might have quite some hp regen

[tropic basin]

How would a a single enemy work with
a) pollution scaling
b) keep posing a threat after being defeated

also I've heard rumors about big babies

not related to a planet though

[tardy quarry]

larger than 10 behemoth biters? damn that’s crazy

[tropic basin]

by weight or height?

[tardy quarry]

I have no idea

probably not height

imagine 10 biter tall enemies

[tropic basin]

me neither, but I don't like size comparisons when it's unclear whether it's height, surface area or volume (mass)

10 biter tall is a lot bigger than 10 biters heavy

[tardy quarry]

I’m still thinking about enemies in this shape

[tropic basin]

that would be a pain to implement I guess, but very different and probably worth it

[tardy quarry]

will there be alien enemies from space?

UFO?

[tropic basin]

I'm wondering about the post game science pack.
What could it be and why design it. Why not use the Aquilo science pack?

I think the answers to both those questions depend on the goal of the expansion.

[indigo fog]

I think Aquilo will use just Aquilo's resources, whereas the postgame one will likely use stuff from all 5 planets

[tardy quarry]

my speculation was that u send some space probe on Aquilo orbit

or a space location

[leaden socket]

Maybe you need to import something spoiling relatively fast from Gleba, then craft the post-game pack on aquilo

The Gleba pack spoils slow, so fast platform isn't a strict requirement, but the post-game pack could require that

[tropic basin]

a science pack being Aquilo exclusive sounds a lot like the Aquilo science pack though

I think the post game science pack will happen in space. Or some other special place, definitely not on a planet.

[leaden socket]

Maybe it use 2 spoiling ingredient, one from gleba and the other from aquilo?

[tropic basin]

in orbit around the sun or something

[leaden socket]

So it requires fast platforms, which is quite practical at that stage

[tropic basin]

post game almost certainly will need stuff from everywhere

[deft swan]

I've been assuming the endgame science pack will be some small challenge on top of repeating the game winning condition, like space science in 1.1. Win the game by launching a rocket, get endgame science by launching a satellite in the rocket.

[tardy quarry]

with the biter spawner rebalance, will we have weapon damage upgrades to include artillery shell?

[stray wharf]

They already told us about several damage upgrades (Destroyers and cannons). But overall, I think the whole point of the combat rebalancing is to make it consume more resources to take nests in the mid-to-late game. Artillery are still a "win button", but it's going to take more resources and time for them to actually win.

[tardy quarry]

I mean, currently theres no damage upgrade technology for artillery

[tropic basin]

artillery was instakilling nests, there was no need until 2.0

[stray wharf]

I could see them adding one, or just letting explosives cover them. For SA, if Artillery is on Vulcanus, I could see its damage upgrade tech being Vulcanus-specific infinite research. Especially if Gleba has the explosive infinite tech. For 2.0, it could have its own series of techs.

[tardy quarry]

I feel like Vulcanus will have physical weapon infinite tech

u know, tank shell are also upgraded by physical damage tech

I can see that they may add artillery into the physical damage upgrade list

theres physical, explosive, flammable, energy weapon damage

maybe Vulcanus has physical, Fulgora has energy, Gleba has explosive and flammable?

[tropic basin]

nothing for Nauvis?

[tardy quarry]

any weapon damage infinite upgrade for Nauvis is kinda broken

[stray wharf]

Nauvis should have flammable, as its the planet:

1. that can make flamethrower ammo.
2. where flamethrower turrets are the most useful.

[tardy quarry]

hummm, actually u might be right

[tropic basin]

Thematically, Nauvis getting the most basic one (physical) would be fitting, but that leaves flammable for Vulcanus and that feels weird?
Flammables fits Vulcanus, but not Vulcanus enemies.

[tardy quarry]

tbh I don't think flammable fits a metallurgic planet

[stray wharf]

Also, Nauvis has U-238 ammo, which is already the best physical ammo.

[tardy quarry]

lava is not flammable

[wanton igloo]

Are you sure?

[tardy quarry]

yeah, only Nauvis has crude oil for flammable ammo

[tardy quarry]

I'd say lava cause things to burn, but they are not burnable themself

[tropic basin]

lava is the stuff that makes other stuff catch fire
and yes, there's flammable gases disolved in IRL lava

never seen tiny flames on lava streams?

[wanton igloo]

Anything will burn with a sufficiently strong oxidizer :P

[wild swallow]

dst is fire

[leaden socket]

Vulcanus probably has fire resistant enemies, so flamers are not useful there

So I think flammable damage won't be there

[crystal dune]

Gleba also most likely has no flammable oils available anywhere

It’s possible to bring them there by using coal liquefaction, but still, that doesn’t make it a good candidate

Oh, right, it obviously has explosives

Rocket turret

[leaden socket]

Nauvis-flammable, Vulcanus-projectile, Fulgora-energy, Gleba-explosive

What fits Aquilo best?

[tawny snow]

you need to be able to make light oil for rocket fuel tho

[crystal dune]

Or you just make rocket fuel from fruit

[tawny snow]

I feel that would cause conflict when recycling

Unless they make rocket fuel recycle to itself

[tardy quarry]

maybe no infinite damage tech on Aquilo

Aquilo: infinite combat drone follower count research

[weary widget]

give me a way to automatically deploy them and I'll take it

[stray wharf]

I don't really understand the whole "auto-deploy drones" thing. Disrupters cannot be auto-deployed because their deployment location is really important to how you use them. They don't move, so you really need to select where they go.

Destroyers are super-expensive; you don't want them to just pop up because 2 tiny biters showed up.

As for defenders, you can spawn 4 of them in one second of holding down the button. In 5 seconds, you have a mob of 20. Maybe it would be good to be able to bundle defenders into groups of five so that you could deploy them faster (like Destroyers), but even as is, I don't really see deployment as a serious impediment to using them.

[weary widget]

its not a serious impediment, just a nice QoL feature if you want to toggle for instance 20 or 30 deployed at all times (or whatever number you want). its difficult looking at your active bot count while you're fighting large amounts of biters and potentially moments away from death from hitting a rock or steering into some behemoth biters

[misty falcon]

That's why Destroyers deploy in groups

[tardy quarry]

at the time theres behemoth biters I’m pretty sure u can spam nuke tho

[misty falcon]

Nukes are expensive

[tardy quarry]

destroyers are not cheap

[stray wharf]

True, but they take a lot of stuff that prods (and later the EMP and Foundry) can make cheaper. The most expensive part of a nuke will always be expensive (especially in SA where uranium is in higher demand).

[sullen forge]

Honestly, they should be deploying from roboports and making routine trips to eliminate bug bases. If it takes ammo, load roboport with ammo. If it takes electricity (like destroyer) its just a bonus that it doesnt need to take from ammo pool.

Bots become reusable, and can be RTS'd. Similar to artillery, but you still have to put the individual bots in line of fire.

[weary widget]

building deployable combat robots would be cool. they could make it as expensive as they want to offset their benefits.

[sullen forge]

Honestly, it poses an interesting quality vs quantity conundrum too. If you assume artillery as quality destruction, artillery being expensive and has a number of logistics requirements, then bots would be the quantity argument. Cheap and mass produceable, effective in large numbers

[weary widget]

I'm a simple man, I just want to automatically zergrush biter nests with armed fighter drones

[stray wharf]

So what exactly are you going to do between the time where we currently get defenders and the time where we get combat bots that compete effectively with artillery?

[sullen forge]

Grow the factory? Maybe i dont understand the question.

[stray wharf]

Artillery (and Spidertrons) represent the end of active participation in combat. Until that point, if you wanted to effectively attack nests, you had to physically be present. Artillery is your "win button" for attacking.

If combat bots are going to compete with artillery as an alternative, then they must be at the same approximate tech level as artillery. If they're earlier, then artillery serves no point, since you already won combat. So they have to be late in the tech tree.

But combat drones in the current game (especially with the recent changes) serve a vital roll as a force multiplier for attacks. If you take drones out and replace them with combat bots... what do you do about the role that combat drones served until you can get combat bots?

[sullen forge]

if they're earlier, then artillery serves no point since you've already won combat.

Artillery serves the benefit of launching material at incredible distances, presumably from a safe position. Risk to the firing structure is mitigated with protections. With combat drones, you are actively sending foot soldiers to fight the bases, they will die without guarantee of success (unless sufficient numbers are present) unlike the artillery can provide.

Drones while cheap, are still a consumable cost (through either consumed ammo or sustained losses). Artillery, while expensive, the only cost that should be incurred is through the shells expended which can guarantee a structures destruction

Tl;dr; manifestation of "acceptable loss/risk" presents differently in both cases.

[stray wharf]

The cost isn't as important as the question of what you're doing. Do you need to fight or do you not? That's what artillery buys you. If you provide an earlier way to avoid fighting, unless it is absurdly expensive, that's what everyone is going to do.

Remember: offense means avoiding having to have defense. If you can automatically push biters out of your cloud, it really doesn't matter how much that costs; it's a better investment than defense.

[sullen forge]

Artillery can automatically attack and do scouting, so already they can not be put in the same category.

But,

Do you need to fight or do you not? ... it really doesnt matter how much that costs; its a better investment than defense

This is assuming the role the artillery or combat bots should take, being either strict defense or offense. If thats the case, such black and white thinking is not practical. Artillery can be mobile. Roboports are still very much static defenses. You could have infinite upgrades to expand initial coverage of the port, but again, the cost manifestation is the difference. You say it yourself, "whats a better investment of resources?". Artillery will always win out as being more cost effective in my pov.

At least from the standpoint of bases destroyed per capita

Artillery; 100% guarantee of structure death at expense of artillery shell
Combat bot; <100% guarantee of structure death with chance for losses

[viscid ferry]

It's like every message is getting an additional paragraph

[stray wharf]

Roboports are their own reward. Building more of them is inherently good. The only reason we don't build them through nests as is is that we can't. What you're asking for would allow us to do that. Not only do we have the ability to take and hold territory with minimal personal interaction, forcing biters out of the pollution cloud and thus no longer needing defense, we also gain the ability to build expansions out there because we expanded the roboport network to get there.

[crystal dune]

Combat robots deploying from roboports

Again?

It’s conceptually cool, but when you give it an honest look, you have to admit it has no reason to exist

[sullen forge]

1, the combat coverage would be different/larger than the standard coverage, so bases cant be auto-deployed in the sense you mention.
2, i see your point now regarding why defense would unnecessary since the bots would automatically go out of their way to target bases that expand inward. Then at that point, why not remove the automatic aspect? Bot swarms need to be manually commanded and sent to particular locations to be effective.

[stray wharf]

Given the information culled from the B-roll in Nilaus's video, this appears to be the production tree for Fulgora's science pack.

Lengthy and complicated.

We also seem to have solved the mystery of the green cubes. They come from a pink thing that I'm almost certain are jellynuts, but with the compression, it's hard to tell. Assuming they are:

So Ag science seems to be a product of mostly jellynuts. And once you get the jelly-yum->nutrients recipe, it's all jellynuts.

Also, rocket fuel is made directly from green cubes in a biochamber.

[tawny snow]

interesting, so steel isn't used in science production at all, so you either need to find a sink for it, or void it with recyclers

[stray wharf]

Steel's used for a lot of things; Fulgora isn't just a place to make science. You have to make the EMP there too, and you probably want to make rails. And bots. And elevated rails. Probably assemblers. Locomotives. Etc.

[tawny snow]

of course, but all of that implies the player expanding their bases, I was thinking more of an afk situation, you'd need at least a bit enough buffer so that your production chain doesn't clog

could be a nice endgame export

[stray wharf]

The same is true of red and blue circuits (but those will likely go into module making).

[tawny snow]

or copper/iron/plastic, if lds and gears alone can't keep up (btw recycling lds yield even more steel )

[crystal dune]

Here is all the recipe info that I managed to extract from the Nilaus video

Well, not all. I didn’t bother repeating stuff Alfonse had already made known

Honestly these all seem very interesting to me

The production trees are tangled in ways I absolutely didn’t expect

There’s also the mysterious total absence of this thing anywhere. Maybe it was cut? Could have been a case of “intermediate with not enough uses”
Or, of course, maybe it could be the elusive bioflux hiding in plain sight

Ohh
Wait wait
One more spotted

||Tungsten carbide needs acid||

Oh wait, I think I just realized that the point of ||biochamber mashing might be to avoid getting seeds||

Because I don’t see any outputs for those anywhere

So do we also get ||assembler jellynut cubing that produces jellynut seeds||?

I’m not entirely sure why I’ve started spoilering everything now

The spoilage fumes are reaching my brain…

[weary widget]

this isn't the thread to be reading if you want to avoid spoilers lol

btw, not sure if crafting speeds for EMP and Foundry were ever confirmed but I found out from someone reliable ||base speed of EMP is 2, foundry 4||

[crystal dune]

EMP speed was stated in fff, and people have definitely done the math on the foundry one

[weary widget]

how about these then: ||fluid wagons are having capacity doubled||, ||we'll be able to transmit signals across surfaces||, ||changes are being tested to partially nerf fluid networks to force a direction when sending fluids long distances||

[crystal dune]

Ooh, first one is juicy

I don’t particularly care about the other two, but they’re nice to have I guess

Raiguard was hard at work, there was no way the fluid system was staying exactly as it was in the fff

At one point he popped up in the fff’s forum thread and said that he’s been reading every single post while he works on it

[weary widget]

yeah, its basically too OP in its current state

[stray wharf]

I think we computed that from some screenshots.

[weary widget]

I should've figured lol

[stray wharf]

I've got to think that it's more than just avoiding seeds (though that is a good reason, since you will eventually have enough). You probably get more output for the same input (the recipe equivalent of a 50% prod bonus).

[crystal dune]

Of course, that’s a reasonable assumption as well

Also, I find it funny how the green cube mystery actually just circled back to the first and simplest assumption

It’s just the other mash, lol

Now I wonder if in that blurred screenshot, that really was a cube nutrient recipe, from a time when it existed in place of the jelly yum one

[stray wharf]

Maybe at one point. But the asymmetry is interesting: jellynuts are for rocket fuel (power) and science, while yumakos are for sulfur, carbon, and fiber.

[crystal dune]

And plastic uses both!

[stray wharf]

Yumakos give you early fresh nutrients. Jellynuts give you really bulk, fresh nutrient production.

[crystal dune]

Also, I wonder if carbonifying your spoilage actually makes it more power efficient. That would be fun take on fuel processing

[stray wharf]

Seriously, what eats 100 nutrients per second?

[weary widget]

one more of the smaller ones- ||fish spoil now||

[stray wharf]

Yeah, I figured that was coming.

[weary widget]

at least the higher quality ones spoil slower so you have more time to do something with it when quality cycling for spidertrons

assuming it follows the same mechanics as the rest of the spoilable stuff

[plucky sonnet]

I should probably comment on the "leak" that happened during galdoc's stream, we kind of overreacted a little bit because nothing actually got leaked that you couldn't really figure out from the fffs already

iirc one of them mentioned alerts on vulcanus, so...

[crystal dune]

What, the instakill thing?

[weary widget]

existence of an enemy

[plucky sonnet]

no, also that's not even true

[crystal dune]

I guess I got it mixed up with some other Vulcanus enemy leak

[plucky sonnet]

melon was straight up just wrong

[misty falcon]

Existence of something that can cause damage. Lightning also causes alerts

[plucky sonnet]

he literally said "vulcanus enemy" on stream

[stray wharf]

So there's a way to get specific molten metals from lava? Do we know if it consumes more calcite per molten metal?

[crystal dune]

Unknown, all I saw is the layout

It’s possible that they split it completely, and the mixed recipe no longer exists

I can see that happening. It’s trivially simple to void excess, but just kind of annoying. Maybe they decided to just give up on the iron copper balance idea, after seeing how people play with it

[stray wharf]

But that was the most interesting part of molten metal stuff on Vulcanus: the fact that you had to balance your use of it. Trivial or not, it was the cost of inefficiency.

I hope they made lava processing cost more calcite compared to ore melting at least.

Oh, and how do you get stone?

[crystal dune]

Both recipes also produce stone

You can’t escape it

Earendel made certain of it personally, I’m sure

Every factorio player must experience the transcendent joy of the stone byproduct, no matter what

[stray wharf]

Maybe the separate processing are more advanced recipes, with the initial one requiring balancing. But maybe that's a bit silly.

[weary widget]

10/10 source for quality stone

[tawny snow]

when was the first one said?

[hybrid briar]

Forcing the stone byproduct would be balancing enough no?

[crystal dune]

Stone is much less annoying to void, because you aren’t bottlenecked by foundry casting speed

So they kept it for that reason, I assume

[weary widget]

day 1-2 of the prague thing, something like that

[tawny snow]

that's a very big buff

50k plates per wagon and not even counting productivity on casting

so 75k at least?

[stray wharf]

Note that they may have tweaked the molten metal ratios, if the LDS recipe we recently saw is anything to go by.

I'm guessing the ore to metal to plate ratio is 1:1.5:1.

A 25k wagon would "only" store a minimum of 25k plates (including the Foundry prod).

[late sentinel]

but what about the turrets? How do those play into it

[indigo fog]

I assume we don't know the science production?

[vivid turret]

Tungsten Carbide + Tungsten Steel (provisional name) + Liquid Copper.
In a foundry.

[vivid turret]

Spitters exist and people use walls anyway.

[stray wharf]

The Foundry gets to lend its 50% prod bonus to making holmium plate. What if the EMP gets to lend its 50% prod bonus (and extra module slot) to making tungsten carbide on Vulcanus? It is an assembler recipe, and the EMP has quite a few of those.

[vivid turret]

EMP gives a lot to Vulcanus already.

[weary widget]

was this in that nilaus video? did it show what other materials it uses? its strange that it could be made in an assembly machine

I would just assume it would be nothing but foundry recipes for it

[stray wharf]

But that's how every planet works. On Gleba, the first things you do with fruit are assembler and furnace recipes (though later apparently you get mashing recipes that use the biochamber). On Fulgora, the first thing you do with holmium ores is put them in a chemical plant.

And on Vulcanus, making tungsten carbide is an assembler recipe... somehow.

[stray wharf]

We actually saw this back in one of the Steam pictures. You could see tungsten carbide coming out of a building that was mostly cut off the bottom. But we could see just enough of the top to know that it was an assembler.

Though we didn't know that sulfuric acid was involved.

On the plus side, carbide being an assembler recipe means that you can quality cycle it.

[stray wharf]

Compiling all of the Vulcanus information gives us this science pack setup:

[stray wharf]

Here's a revised version of Fulgora taking all of the new information (including the byproduct possibility of EM science):

This is probably the most complex science production sequence, especially since it requires 4 products that are recycled from other things. And often not the same other things.

On the plus side, putting quality modules in the accumulator EMPs will certainly pay off.

Back to Gleba. Since we've seen solid fuel on-planet, I suspect that it serves as an initial power source, something that doesn't require a biochamber. Since green cubes, a product of jellynuts, are used to make rocket fuel, it would make sense that baked jellynuts would be used to make the lesser fuel. So baked jellynuts into a chemical plant (plus water) would be my thinking.

The rocket fuel recipe would be early Gleba research.

[crystal dune]

It is as I had suspected
It looks like stone was actualy moved from electrolyte to holmium solution

Either that or this emp is being handfed

Like half the buildings in that screenshot

Nvm 😭😭😭

[misty falcon]

Assume we're dumb and don't always build correctly

[crystal dune]

Yeah, I’ve noticed the iron chest infestation

[late sentinel]

what is this iron chest joke

I build iron chests

[leaden socket]

Anything with sufficiently high throughput x uptime could use quality modules, even landfill can use them

Quality landfill are not directly useful, but they can be recycled into qual stone for other things

[misty falcon]

Iron chests are in a weird place. They are too big for the start, and not upcycleable like steel. But it doesn't matter anyway.

[leaden socket]

I never use them, I use wood early on, then go directly to steel chests

[stray wharf]

Fulgora costs for things like chest are kinda weird. Using the numbers from the Fulgora FFF, one iron chest costs 133 scrap (assuming your only iron comes from gears), while a steel chest costs 400 scrap (assuming you're only getting steel from the scrap directly). That's a pretty substantial difference, especially early on.

Granted, the difference for ore-based planets is more tilted towards iron chests. But steel productivity research is a thing but that doesn't help Fulgora.

Speaking of which, could Fulgora have some kind of "scrap productivity" research that provides a multiplier to the scrap recycling recipe?

[misty falcon]

You have to factor in which items are constantly consumed in science/rockets and which aren't.

[tawny snow]

do recyclers accept productivity modules when doing the scrap recycling recipe?

[stray wharf]

Furnaces don't work that way. Because they select recipes automatically, they all have to agree on what modules they accept. That's one reason why stone bricks can be moduled despite not being an "intermediate".

[tawny snow]

okay that makes sense

[misty falcon]

Not accurate. In Krastorio 2 you have crushers which are furnaces. Usually you can't put prod into them, but if you crush rock to sand, you can then put prod in them.

Of course, stuff like that is confusing and therefore should be avoided in a more accessible overhaul.

[tawny snow]

seem like good candidates to void extra materials on fulgora, idk if the extra logistics would be worth it tho

[stray wharf]

So what happens if you put prods in there and it needs to select an unproddable recpie?

[misty falcon]

They don't get the prod line

[indigo fog]

Bentham in shambles

[late sentinel]

is your question is this possible?

[stray wharf]

Well, since steel has productivity research, that means furnace recipes can have productivity researches. So I guess it is possible in the engine. I guess it's more a question of would it be a good idea.

[late sentinel]

It’s a pretty good idea I think.

[stray wharf]

It would work around the issue that Fulgora has where it can't take advantage of most non-Fulgora-specific productivity researches. Gleba may have alternate recipes for plastic and rocket fuel, but they probably still benefit from those prod researches.

[late sentinel]

what’s funny is that I don’t know if they do, I didn’t check

[stray wharf]

Wait: don't the Foundry's steel and LDS casting recipes benefit from researched prod? They have to, right?

[late sentinel]

I haven’t checked either, but I would report it if any of these cases you have said fail

[misty falcon]

They do, the steel recipes I mean

[viscid ferry]

Probably not right? because you get processing circuits from the get go, whereas more production steps like green and red circuits means higher qualities?
I could be wrong though, i'm not that knowledgable on quality

[timid crescent]

My guess would be no, you want to be able to make a ton of circuits wherever you make legendary modules

[leaden socket]

What about the last component?

[timid crescent]

And Fulgora seems like it would make it more difficult than just doing it on Nauvis or Vulcanus

[leaden socket]

It requires something other than circuits, and it could affect the costs

[timid crescent]

Assuming the modules aren't exclusive recipes then shipping the last ingredient wouldn't be a big deal

Most of the cost of T3 modules would be the circuits, not the potentially unique ingredient

Actually if nothings change we know they're not exclusives

There was a recycling setup shown on Nauvis that did all 4 modules

[stray wharf]

Module 3s aren't exclusive (we've seen module cyclers on one planet), though they likely require planet-specific ingredients.

It'd likely be better to ship the module 3s directly, unless there's a way to get that intermediate in high quality without cycling on modules.

[crystal dune]

Supercaps also take holmium plate ☝️

[stray wharf]

They take green circuits, batteries, superconductors, electrolyte and holmium plate? That's a lot, isn't it?

[crystal dune]

Sure is

4 belt inputs, oh dear

Right now the only intermediate on that level are roboframes

[stray wharf]

I don't know; it seems like there's a lot of double-dipping. That being said, if holmium solution is a byproduct of science making, then you can at least get some of that holmium back (especially up through the productivity chain).

[crystal dune]

We do know green circuits are a relatively recent addition to the recipe

They weren’t there in trash to treasure

It seems like they just added an ingredient on top of the three ingredients that were previously the whole recipe

[misty falcon]

Also remember modules are said to be relatively lightweight

[hybrid briar]

the space exploration mod is doing something like that with tides

I don't expect the official game to do so

[weary widget]

watching the video from nilaus at 23 minutes, theres a clip where theres a small amount of wreckage near where the lava is

if not enemies, perhaps the 'shoreline' can slowly shift

[sullen forge]

Maybe lava flows change uncovering new ores or something?

[wanton igloo]

Friends with tanks can be pretty destructive...

[radiant quiver]

Oh that would be a surprise, flowing lava was one of my early hopes but I ditched the idea, maybe I'll have to build those dams after all like the Dutchman I am

Enemies throwing lava fill 💀

[hybrid briar]

well now you know that has to be a mod if it's not vanilla

tired of getting water-filled nests, the enemies of the new planet lava-fill your base

[radiant quiver]

Karma for you abusing those water fill mods

[shrewd citrus]

just to reinforce this statement, the B-roll footage was recorded from LAN servers, not Nilaus' bases.

the sheer amount of skullduggery and randomly managing to blow things up was overwhelming at times

e.g. due to pentapod egg spoilage my parked spidertron launched rockets at our gleba base every couple of minutes

"oops"

[leaden socket]

Should be fine if they use yellow rockets?

[leaden socket]

The main problem of this, is spage doesn't provide any tools to auotmate dealing with this

[shrewd citrus]

should be fine if you disable auto-fire or be careful where you park it

[leaden socket]

Automatic dealing with moving shoreline will require at least Recursive Blueprint and a significant amount of circuits

[radiant quiver]

Are inserters able to filter by spoilage?

[leaden socket]

I'm talking about the moving shoreline conjecture

[radiant quiver]

Oh ok but party ers have said the expansion is way more than what's in the fffs, and with all the qol mods implemented so far recursive blueprints doesn't seem out of reach

But do we know if inserters van filter by spoilage?

[leaden socket]

But the devs said spage won't require a significant amount of circuits

[timid crescent]

They can either pick out the highest or lowest spoiled items from an inventory

[radiant quiver]

Oh that is true

[timid crescent]

The main tools for manipulating spoilables are inserters, with a new ability to prioritize the freshest or the most spoiled items when picking up from inventories, and filtering out spoilage with splitters.

[radiant quiver]

Hmm so no exact thresholds

[timid crescent]

So long as you're consistently producing a spoiling item and recycling the excess you can maintain a small stockpile

[leaden socket]

Automated safe egg handling will be possible even without exact thresholds, but will be much easier with it

[timid crescent]

I can't imagine a stockpile would be wanted for anything that doesn't catalyse itself like pentapod eggs

[radiant quiver]

How will spoiling eggs be used in pvp?

[timid crescent]

To poor effect I imagine

[leaden socket]

Idk what's the stack size

[misty falcon]

The expansion does not require crazy circuits.

[young breach]

speculations for tomorrow?

I'm thinking finally Vulcanus enemy's and a bit about the event

[dreamy eagle]

I was guessing Vulcanus enemies last week, so I'll guess them again

[hidden dune]

My guess is no Vulcanus enemies

My guess is another QoL feature, but related to the SA content

[hidden dune]

Hoping to be wrong

[crystal dune]

I’m hoping you’re right

No enemy fff please 🙏

[hidden dune]

Actually, I hope for more QoL stacked FFFs, because these things are harder to notice in the actual game, but when you know about them - using them will be so good

Like, I don't think I would've noticed ore search on the map for a while, without knowing about it in advance

[young breach]

that's a good point

[hidden dune]

I really hope to get a huge list will all tweaks and QoL features after the release

Also, I hope that Tips tab in the game gets some attention and explains more stuff at first

Like, both Nilaus and Xterminator mentioned that building space platforms, making train interrupts is unintuitive

[dreamy eagle]

I trust that Wube has added the info about them like the rest of the info. I assume the lan players skipped all that if it was in the lan version

[tropic basin]

In the Galdoc stream it was mentioned that some mechanics were quite unintuitive even for experienced players.
Space platform construction might be one of them.

I think the remaining time until release is allocated to fix problems that arise from external playtesting.

[viscid ferry]

Just a little explanation page in the tips/and tricks would already solve that problem

[crystal dune]

Nvm, just caught a glimpse of a yumako mashing biochamber outputting seeds

[misty falcon]

Sounds yummy

[crystal dune]

At this point they should just rename it to yummy chamber

[sullen forge]

@olive olive bad news. If we assume infinite productivity is available for smelting products, then at a certain productivity thresholds, direct inserting train smelting becomes useless.

[olive olive]

I don't think I folow?

Miner direct to smelter takes over?

[sullen forge]

Train wagon with ores, di into furnace, outputs di'd back into wagon

[stray wharf]

You should be doing molten metal processing anyway.

[olive olive]

Oh, at some point it decompresses, yeah

[sullen forge]

Yeah. Ores @ 50 a stack, plates @ 100 stack, anything productive past > 200% will lock the smelter from taking new inputs because theres no where to put the excess goods

[olive olive]

I don't have any trains that flip ores to plates, I actually have no plate trains atm

For "normal" train DI it won't be too bad of an issue, having two output trains for one input train is fine, or 1.784 per, doesn't matter

[sullen forge]

On the flip side, 200% productivity would free up modules on the smelter for something else. Probably could smelt an entire wagon in a minute

[olive olive]

When it's at the perfect ratio, I would consider it

Given that the higher tier modules are significantly more expensive, it's actually hella worth considering specifically moduling to get to exactly 200

Over 200 and I think you're right, it takes exchanging off the table. Under 200 and you end up with partial wagons, which means more train trips.

but right at 200? That saves a whole assed train trip every time

Well, half a route, but still

[sullen forge]

This also throws a monkey wrench into investing in productivity of the recipes further.

[olive olive]

Yeah, I'd make the case that the advantages of a targeted 200% is worth considering b/c of the other implications and upgrading further may not even be that worth it anyhow

It's a smelter so your rate of return on higher modules will be awful

[sullen forge]

Because like if you are already @ the threshold, any further would upset the dichotomy of train network load, (not to mention locking smelters). You could maybe throw quality on there to remove productivity bonuses but then you would lose out on speed @ that point

[olive olive]

I'd have to crunch some numbers

But exchanging ores for plates is very interesting if it's full train stuff

Even at 195% I'd take it

[sullen forge]

Yeah something to think about. Just sitting here and that realization hit me like an 18 wagon train.

[olive olive]

There's a minor beaconing problem for 8 beacon sharing with no chest

[stray wharf]

I'm still confused as to why you would be using furnaces instead of Foundries.

[olive olive]

And there's a minor 7 tile issue with chest to same wagon if you want the sharing across the tracks, this is horizontally tileable

[olive olive]

Tbh, I should dip lol, foundries are a spoiler for me already

Been trying to avoid spoilers

Eh beaconing is changing in 2.0 anyhow, if there are new materials processing things, I'll have to crunch numbers and try to figure out layouts then. @sullen forge I think conceptually, 195-200% is where I'd be onboard with exchanging, if exactly 200% is exact and keeps running, hell yeah, I'd settle for 195

Tasty

[agile river]

this is not the thread to be in if you're avoiding spoilers

[serene sage]

why would you be in #friday-facts if you're avoiding Friday facts

[sullen forge]

@agile river @serene sage i pinged ich here because i wanted to discuss infinite techs with him. So blame me.

[sullen forge]

So, taking quality into account, 4 furnaces cranking at 26 (roughly) speed is achievable with 4 legendary furnaces with speed 3 and 3 beacons of speed 3 which will allow an entire cargo wagon to be smelted in 1 minute

[olive olive]

Uhhh, so 145 is single inserter plate time

[sullen forge]

Its 8.33 plates a second on the

[olive olive]

My ore trains are 72s to unload with single inserter.... gulp lol

[sullen forge]

Yeah, the inserter swing speed might be the bottle neck on that

[tawny snow]

a moves about 90 i/s iirc, so 22-ish seconds to empty an ore wagon

[static root]

so what do you think the vibes are going to be like for today's fff ?

[tropic basin]

The vibe will be that it's -ing Spage!

[mint berry]

Probably LAN update

[serene sage]

a detailed explanation of how they fixed a Space Age-exclusive bug they found during the LAN party that no one actually encountered but two players got close to

[static root]

real

[radiant quiver]

Or the bug with ||killing the Vulcanus enemy|| , wich sounded like it was not supposed to happen. Can't leak stuff if wube leaks it themselves

[mint berry]

Wasn't it a modder that leaked that?

[tropic basin]

yes. he got a little ahead of himself when we wanted to tell us about his bug squishing achievements

[tropic basin]

he said "||found a way to insta-kill the Vulcanus enemy||"
the emphasis is the bit that matters imho, not ||the killing itself||

[radiant quiver]

Oh I see

Then what was the other bug? ||Manipulating asteroid spawns by building a very long and thin spaceship||

[mint berry]

Not sure, I just saw it mentioned in chat once as a theory.

[tropic basin]

last thing he said "there's also a way .." then got cut off

[radiant quiver]

His last words

[tropic basin]

that thing must be from somewhere else, not from the Galdoc stream

[radiant quiver]

Yeah it was a screenshot

[tropic basin]

yeah, I have the stream open to check whether I got the wording right. putting stuff in quotes sort of demands to get it right

[radiant quiver]

The Speedrun team upset kovarex with their strategy

[tropic basin]

I have seen a spaghetti platform, was wondering what that was about

[radiant quiver]

Oh don't worry about it I was only joking

[tropic basin]

I meant my own quote about notnotmelon.

[young breach]

I think the endgame platform needs some things that require a big platform and they cheesed it by making an 1 tile wide bridge (just a guess ofc)

[tropic basin]

Wasn't that thin, it was shaped like an "I".

assumed it's for easier travel. IRL ships to that as well

[young breach]

oh to me it looked very thin,

[tropic basin]

guess that means we've seen different screenshots

[young breach]

this one right?

[tropic basin]

oh, well I've seen it. didn't perceive the thing in the background though

I guess the thin platforms *I've seen* have been part of the B-roll

[timid wing]

I have not seen the cheese speedrun platform in B-roll anywhere

[tropic basin]

hmm, bad wording. the I-shaped ones I've seen, regular thin, not ridiculous thin

[tawny snow]

👀

[tropic basin]

Do we need to heat our stuff on Aquilo?

[misty falcon]

Nothing was shown by devs or in FFFs

[late sentinel]

That is what that text implies

[crystal dune]

In spage, depending on the how the tech tree is organized, we might even deplete some uranium patches by funneling them into space science

Shocking

[late sentinel]

Beyond that.. no ideas are given

[tropic basin]

other speculation in #friday-facts was that we might want to throttle reactors to prevent them from melting the planet too much
I like that idea more tbh

[young breach]

I got a feeling you wanna tell us something, but you can't

[hybrid briar]

melting-snowman.gif

[viscid ferry]

Factorio Frostpunk

[tropic basin]

of course Wube doesn't want to spread cheese

btw is the exploit public knowledge?
Does it have to do with enabling the SA mod after (almost) finishing a non-SA run?
All the stuff that has been moved further up the tech tree would be available with Nauvis tech ..

[misty falcon]

No, and no

It's strictly new stuff, and it's already patched

[tropic basin]

I still wanna know. Hope I remember to ask after release :)

[indigo fog]

I wanna know too

[misty falcon]

After the embargo/release

[tropic basin]

no, that's too early. How am I supposed to understand the cheese without spoilering myself? ;)

[sullen forge]

i get the feeling this is a possibility. Last planet which has been documented as furthest from the sun would imply not a lot of heat. Below freezing temperatures. If circuitry on the reactor is kinda important/useful on the final planet, I would imagine buildings need to be kept warm to be working at maximum efficiency.

using heatpipes to basically keep the buildings warm from reactors.

[young breach]

I think I heard it is something on the last planet (so embargo stuff), I think the wording was "they cheesed the last planet"

so we won't know untill the embargo lifts

[tropic basin]

last bit was confirmed by Soul above ;)

[young breach]

oh yeah xd

[tropic basin]

yes, but wiring every building with heat pipes is tedious. I don't think it'll be done that way.

[young breach]

maybe only a special building that needs to be heated

[tropic basin]

not only heated, we're now (soon) able to regulate the temperature
it's something where supplying Fuel Cells unrestricted is bad/suboptimal.

[sullen forge]

feasible if uranium isnt available on the planet and needs to be imported

[tropic basin]

actually, it could be that simple
regulating reactor temperature requires quite a bit of circuit skill

[worn vigil]

just throwing an idea out here, maybe fulgora has some post apocalyptic scavengers that scavenge from your factory, that are drawn to technological pollution, idk maybe its a stretch but since there are alien ruins from a city it might be possible

[fossil hawk]

Think its just a static enemy, if any. Machine-like to get around the mention of Fulgora being "lifeless" (FFF418). Think they also have mentioned not every planet having combat. But not sure if that was discord or in the FFF

Would also jive with them trying to make each planet slightly different. Pollution with swarming biters on Nauvis, pollen sniffing Pentapods, ??? single (enemy) worm on Vulcanus searching for noise (?), nothing on Fulgora but maybe getting access to "good" scrap from stationary enemies (??), RTS anno Factory building showdown (????) with Squid brains (? ?) who live under the ice (????), which promts you to use heat pollution to engage, defend or make yourself weaker/push them to be stronger (???)

[tardy quarry]

imagine they spoil in 5min

[serene sage]

imagine if fish spoil into two fish

[leaden socket]

So they duplicate exponentially?

And after some time you have a stack of 2^64-1 fish

And the game breaks

[serene sage]

just like in real life

[leaden socket]

IRL they don't replicate in your backpack

[serene sage]

not for lack of trying

[crystal dune]

If we take that statement from V seriously, they spoil in a little over 2 hours

2.097 hours

[tardy quarry]

125min

they spoil into rotten fish

which deals damage to u when consumed

or if seriously, heal only 1/4

realistically they’ll just spoil into spoilages

[crystal dune]

Wow, all those “fish to oil” type mod users will finally get their wish

In a way

Fish>spoilage>carbon>coal

Only a little extra input required

Well, also a some tech from Gleba, probably

But still, it’s now possible

[tardy quarry]

technically sulfur is oil, so we need oil to turn carbon into oil

[crystal dune]

True

And you probably don’t get back more than you invest

Lol

Yeah I did the math assuming one sulfur per coal, it’s not even close 💀

Maybe with high quality prod modules there would be a chance 😭

[stray wharf]

Here's a chart of most of the recipes we've been able to learn about from Gleba:

The biochamber probably takes some iron/copper resources too. But otherwise, this is most of what we've been able to uncover.

Still no idea what the orange blob does (or if it still exists) or where "bioflux" comes from or contributes to.

[indigo fog]

nice reverse engineering!

[stray wharf]

Other people did most of the reverse-engineering; I just collated it.

[indigo fog]

good job to all y'all then :)

[stray wharf]

What's interesting is that spoilage isn't just a waste product; it's a resource.

Someone suggested that it looked like spoilage was being manufactured directly from a fruit (rather than having to wait for it to spoil), but it wasn't clear how or where that happened, so I left it out of the chart.

[crystal dune]

Yeah thank you for leaving it out 😭

Without Nilaus’s head in the way, it became obvious that it was just a belt of jelly that had spoiled

[stray wharf]

It's seems interesting that you may actually have a process for generating bulk nutrients for the sole purpose of allowing them to spoil to make the carbon needed for fiber. Good thing that both fiber and nutrients can be made from yumako mash.

[misty falcon]

Nilaus is an integral part of the factory.

[crystal dune]

This made me a little concerned about the sulfur recipe (not carbon, I saw that happen in real time), but I’m reasonably sure that it was hooked up to a designated spoilage belt

It’s hard to tell sometimes, when it’s clearly a setup still in progress, and built in layers over previous ones 😭

Like, there’s just this single missing belt right after an underground and you have to wonder if it’s intentional or not

[indigo fog]

to paraphrase some tester: "assume we're stupid"

[leaden socket]

However, different ways of obtaining spoilage certainly have differing effciency

In many production lines it's still a waste product that you want to avoid

[crystal dune]

It’s nice that you have more options for dealing with spoilage

More than one place to send it

[crystal dune]

For example, this belt leads to a couple of furnaces that cook the spoilage into carbon and then use it to refuel the train that brought the jellynuts

[stray wharf]

Oh, so that's what all of that is about. I wonder what kind of fuel value carbon has that you'd want to use it. Obviously rocket fuel is something you probably have to research while carbon is likely a trigger tech. But wouldn't you switch over to have faster trains?

[crystal dune]

It’s probably a leftover from before they had the rocket fuel tech

I can see that happening in this factory

But hey, by investing some mash (and with tech from Vulcanus), you’re actually able to turn your spoilage into rocket fuel

Or, well, any oil product for that matter

It’s probably super impractical due to the ratios of the recipes, but conceptually I think it’s hilarious

[stray wharf]

It's interesting that we haven't seen much out of yumakos that you need, outside of sulfur and plastic (admittedly, you need a lot of the latter). And of course, there's that orange blob that we haven't seen at all.

[crystal dune]

Carbon fiber is carbon+mash

Ah yes, the elusive orange blob…
Bioflux? Baked yumako? Cut from the game? Such mystery…

[stray wharf]

We also haven't seen how you make lubricant. We've seen that Biochambers can have fluid hookups, so some kind of processing out of one of those makes sense.

[crystal dune]

Non zero chance you make lubricant from this baked yumako

But honestly who knows, these recipes have been so unpredictable

[stray wharf]

Yes, rocket fuel is shockingly straightforward. Given how little you need lubricant, I suspect that it's probably similarly straightforward.

[worn vigil]

I've heard from somewhere that gleba doesn't have the same early allure that vulcanus and fulgora have, like gleba has more late game benefits

[indigo fog]

Xterminator said that in his video

[worn vigil]

Oh yes it was Xterminator

I was kinda hoping they'd have a more obvious early benefit for going there first

But maybe they don't want to make people feel pressured to go at war with pentapods before they get more types of weapons

[stray wharf]

It suddenly occurred to me why the Fulgora science pack is way more complicated than Gleba or Vulcanus. It's because of Fulgora's production.

To produce Gleba science, you need to be able to build Biochambers. Those require biological material, but they also require iron and copper goods. So you have to have a furnace setup and at least the start of other production.

To produce Vulcanus science, you need a Foundry. That requires lubricant. That means you must engage with coal liquefaction (though not steam neutralization since it takes acid directly).

But to make Fulgora science... you just need to recycle some stuff. EMP parts may require some holmium processing, but everything else would just be recycling. Because there's no side process that you have to engage with in order to make science, the science process itself needs to be longer and more complicated.

[tardy quarry]

on Fulgora, rocket is a byproduct of science production so I think its fair that the Fulgora science is the most complicated one

[crystal dune]

Was there a ghost ping here?

[crystal dune]

Hey, wait

Wouldn’t it be funny if the biochamber recipe required water

[tropic basin]

It'd make sense.

[crystal dune]

These are what gave me the idea, but looking at them now they’re probably refined concrete

[crystal dune]

I just noticed that recipes with spoilables have designated “trash” as part of the recipe info

That’s so convenient

[late sentinel]

I literally did not know this

I didn't expect to learn new stuff in #1240418991386787920 but I guess that's just how it goes...

[tropic basin]

Not reading your FFFs? That picture is from FFF#426, last picture on the left :)
https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-426

[late sentinel]

I know :P I just never noticed it had a 'trash' thing on the recipes.. and I've read the FFFs religiously.

There's so much info 😨

[viscid ferry]

If i can ask, have you been on Gleba yet? how do you rate the planet compared to the others?

there's been a lot of talk about that today

[crystal dune]

Oh, how I yearn to see the tech tree…

Less than a month remains

[viscid ferry]

I'm pretty sure about the Spidertron being there

but who knows about any new techs

[late sentinel]

I have said that I love Gleba.

[viscid ferry]

personally spoilage also seems the most interesting to me with how different it is. I want it to be challenging

[crystal dune]

I mean, most of the “complaints” have been about the unlocks
The gameplay itself seems great

[late sentinel]

It is quite challenging, but like all good challenges, it has an 'aha!' moment where you get it and it works well.

[crystal dune]

And we don’t even know all the unlocks 😭😭😭

Like, we don’t even know what bioflux looks like, let alone what it does
Who knows what secrets yummy lime juice really holds
We should just wait to be informed before making premature judgements

[viscid ferry]

Unlocks are nice but i don't really mind it because i just want the puzzle aspect of the game. That's why i play it

[timid crescent]

Pretty sure the exploit was what V fixed when nerfing Trupen: https://youtu.be/Bz8cLNEnTsQ?t=1195

They go over it in the video but tl;dr they used a bunch of walls at the front of a platform to just eat the asteroid damage instead of using turrets and a factory and stuff

The walls would absorb enough damage and be replaced fast enough that it "just worked"

[stray wharf]

I wonder how "fixed" they can make that one. I mean, the platform does still need to rebuild stuff from damage. So if you make a very slow platform, such that the time between asteroids is long, could you still tank the damage?

[timid crescent]

There are several ways you could address it, potentially using a mix of
-Buffing asteroid damage
-Nerfing wall resistance to asteroids
-Reducing the platform build speed
-Reducing wall stack size (ew)

But you do raise a good point, it feels like something that would be hard to truly fix, just build more storage, make the wall at the front thicker, etc.

I suspect reducing the platform construction speed, maybe only while it's moving, would be the solution they went for

[stray wharf]

I think buffing damage from larger asteroids may be the better option. The strategy could work along simpler routes (Nauvis->first three), but routes with bigger asteroids are too dangerous for walls of walls to work.

There may also need to be a hard limit to space platform size.

[timid crescent]

Some orbits are also dangerous from the b roll I've seen, I feel you can hit a balance between asteroid damage, platform size and asteroid spawn rate such that it's never viable to have only walls for defending a platform

[stray wharf]

Didn't Nilaus mention that he lost his platform at the first planet he went to? It looks like Nauvis might have to be the dedicated shipyard planet.

[timid crescent]

Would make sense

I'm a little surprised by the comments around train interupts and platform building

I wonder what makes them unintuitive

[stray wharf]

I can see platform building being a bit unintuitive, especially if you've never done it before. There could be some UI issues there.

[timid crescent]

Granted, I haven't actually played with them, but the way they're explained to work makes sense to me

I wonder how much of platform building issues are just never having played with remote view before

I suspect intuition issues with interrupts are a misunderstanding of how they work

[tropic basin]

seen the video. makes sense, including Kovarex being angry about it.
Using walls instead of turrets is an obvious speedrunning strategy. I've been thinking about that months ago, so I'm surprised it worked.
I'm not 100% convinced that this is the speedrunner cheese though. We'll find out in 35 days or less.

[timid crescent]

I'm pretty sure it is, not needing to build a "proper" platform means you just need wall and rocket production, you can skip almost every research beyond the ones you need to reach each planet

[tropic basin]

that's what Soul-Burn said about it

which also fits the walls

I'm just hoping for something more exciting.

[misty falcon]

"Walls" isn't one of the "exploits that were fixed"

[tropic basin]

we found out in 0 days!

[timid crescent]

Yeah it was a nerf to Trupen, not an exploit fix

[misty falcon]

There's exploits and there's balance.

[tropic basin]

I wasn't trying to be pedantic about the use of fixed/nerfed because focusing on such nuances only works with pedantic people

[tardy quarry]

simply bann walls on space platform

[timid crescent]

They showed it off a lot in the b roll footage and it feels like an intended mechanic so I'd be surprised if they went that way

[tardy quarry]

ikd, anything showed are subject to changes

like the lava processing

and foundry lds recipe

[timid crescent]

Personally I feel there is a distinction to be made between a dev log that says they can and will change some things and official b roll.

[tropic basin]

all of those things are moving numbers around
I have something else: Increase lateral speed of asteroids. More sideways asteroids!

[timid crescent]

But hey, I wouldn't be that surprised I guess

[tropic basin]

could also increase lateral speed of asteroids with platform speed, to debuff fast movers

[tardy quarry]

tbh I didn’t like the concept of wall blocking asteroid damages

[tropic basin]

it certainly isn't pretty from a design perspective

[tardy quarry]

Trupen did say that they ‘nerfed’ that instead of simply banning it

idk, but walls always feels like a temporary solution to me, even for biters

how long can we make wall to change the biter path without letting them agro on the walls?

[tropic basin]

The problem that asteroids pose is damage to your platforms. Walls and Turrets are both solutions to that threat.
One is short term, high maintenance; the other is long term, low maintenance.
When you're speedrunning, long term doesn't exist.

[tawny snow]

wonder how they will balance the importing ammo situation

[timid crescent]

I'm a little surprised with how popular that seems to be

You could just make the routes take more time

Not the best solution though as it affects throughput and that balance as well

[tawny snow]

I imagine switching to uranium ammo gives you quite the speedup

[tropic basin]

yeah, Uranium bullets being 3x as effective as Steel bullets is very tempting.

[timid crescent]

I don't think it's that big of a deal tbh, so long as it's not drastically superior to making ammo on the platform

But obviously the devs want people to make factories on the platforms

[tropic basin]

carrying around a factory doesn't make that much sense when you have a gigantic industrial complex sitting on the ground that can shoot everything you need up like it's nothing

With platform-platform interactions, we could make stationary refueling stations mid-route, but I think that's not possible from the game engine side.

[hidden dune]

I suspect, that there's an issue with choosing what to build. You need to make ghost items on your quickbar, or have them in your inventory(when you actually want them to be on the platform)

[timid crescent]

When you're in remote view all the items should be pickable

https://cdn.factorio.com/assets/blog-sync/fff-380-remote-open-entity.png

[hidden dune]

Oh, you mean the "ghost picker cursor" from the FFF about ghost modules in assemblers?

[timid crescent]

something similar to this

otherwise you can just pipette items from the crafting menu

[spare aurora]

They could just tweak the weight of ammo so its more expensive to ship. Eventually it will be heavy enough to make you want to build it in space

[hidden dune]

That's just more rockets
And not building a factory on the platform means less heavy platform = faster platform

[misty falcon]

The trick is reducing stack count for things, so they take more slots and require more storage on the platform

[tropic basin]

making the storage building have fewer slots would work too, no?

messing with item stack sizes would be more involved

[hybrid briar]

storage building is the entire method for interplanetary logistics

[stray wharf]

You don't want to break space platforms just to nerf wall regrowing.

[hybrid briar]

they were talking about ammo pre-stocking

[tropic basin]

yes

[stray wharf]

You don't want to break space platforms just to nerf ammo usage.

[tropic basin]

and the wall "exploit" shouldn't be removed. Speedrunner strategies are whacky like that

[hybrid briar]

I'm guessing there's a cooldown on respawn or something now

possibly specifically for walls

[spare aurora]

or just no walls

we already have build restrictions, like no burners, no chests, no bots

(i know, i know calm down satan)

[tropic basin]

Trupens exploit has been nerfed, not removed.

[tardy quarry]

reconstruction speed is an effective nerf

[spice yew]

i suggested a achievement for doing exactly this, i thought it would be kind of funny, i ididn't realize it would be some uber strat heh

[tardy quarry]

I wonder how we make the coolant

so far it seems SA planets matches with 4 SE sciences:
material (metallurgy) science (irridium -> tungsten)
energy (electromagnetic) science (holmium)
agricultural(biological) science (vitamelange->fruits)

I think Aquilo will be something to match Astronomy science (Beryllium), and thus the thermalfluid production theme, where u need coolants (also seem for fusion) for various recipes and get different temperature outputs that need to be cycled in the system

Aquilo machine be a cryogenic chamber/plant/facility to make cryogenic science

theme is irridium (tungsten) merged with vulcanite, I suspect Aquilo theme is Beryllium (unknown material) merged with cryonite (coolant)

[crystal dune]

What’s really hilarious to me is that the colours match too

Like, it couldn’t be a more perfect match 😭

[hybrid briar]

it's kind of like how common https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Classical_element use is between different games

there's plenty of room for different implementation despite similar themes

[lunar wind]

just write it with ||spoiler tags|| no one will look, promise! (when discord doesn't show the latest message )

[tropic basin]

I too, often forgot to scroll down to the bottom before replying

[restive linden]

Idea: make the only place ammo can be in be your designated AMMO slot. Increase stack size .

[hybrid briar]

that would be hell trying to fill turret emplacements with just a few ammo, only being able to hold down Z, unless some bizarre concept was implemented like a difference between cursor stack size and-- oh wait that kinda applies for artillery ammo

[restive linden]

Turrets have a designated ammo slot so they can hold ammo like normal

[hybrid briar]

nono the actual act of filling them early-game

with partial stacks

granted a box with fuel and a burner inserter works too

but then there's a contradiction

[restive linden]

What?

[hybrid briar]

I often fill clusters of 4-8 turrets all touching with fractional stacks of ammo in the early game; if you're only able to hold ammo in one slot/stack then the "fractions" become unwieldy

[hidden dune]

So just "You can't bring ammo on the rockets"

[hybrid briar]

launch rocket, ammo detonates

[restive linden]

Yes

[hidden dune]

That's really specific and lame solution to make ammo the only other item you can't transport in a rocket

Rocket Silo is another one, but it at least makes sense - you can't fit the whole Silo into a rocket, that launches from that very Silo

[hybrid briar]

trianglepupper used internally to a message is another form of sarcasm indicator but with humorous intent

[hidden dune]

And?

My message wasn't related to your puppercastic message

[timid crescent]

Any item that can't be launched just needs to weigh more than 1,000 kg

[tropic basin]

I can fit a tent in a tent. If I try hard, I can even fit multiple tents in a tent. Why can't I fit a rocket silo in a rocket silo

[timid crescent]

Sounds like you need to invent a foldable rocket silo

[misty falcon]

Speculation: Things ed in b-rolls

[tropic basin]

That's not much of a speculation, Alfonse got more info for his recipe graph.

[misty falcon]

I'm talking features, not recipes

[tropic basin]

Are you saying you found some?

Can't find everything. Klonan could spend the time until release watching the B roll to make sure nothing leaks, and still miss something.

[misty falcon]

Well, I'm sure it'll be interesting

[viscid ferry]

we have seen the building construction animation for the space platform in the b-rolls

[hidden dune]

Silo isn't foldable

[dreamy eagle]

That is why there is a need for a foldable silo

[misty falcon]

You can fit silo ingredients into rockets

[tawny snow]

on the nilaus video there is a foundry taking in electric engines, red circuits, and maybe that plastic belt on the left (around 20:00)

I imagine those are ingredients for the drill?

[restive linden]

Which video and platform did this happen

[wanton igloo]

https://cdn.factorio.com/assets/blog-sync/fff-382-platform-tiles-building-animation.mp4

Oh wait, building construction

Very similar vibe

[viscid ferry]

https://youtu.be/I1_BEcefvv8?si=HrhxrH4FaxtH3QTp&t=415
The asteroid collector on the left at this timestamp

[worn vigil]

I heard the aquillo cryo building is reminiscent of the nuclear reactor

[tropic basin]

Wasn't that somewhat mentioned in the Fusion FFF?

[stray wharf]

Reminiscent? It will likely be used alongside it, but I don't think it has anything to do with it specifically.

[tropic basin]

oh, nuclear reactor
forget what I said

[wild swallow]

i dont like that building animation, it feels incomplete

also shouldn't the asteroid collecter explode instead of just cutting into a blueprint

the platfrom tile animation is perfect though

[timid crescent]

It's probably been mentioned but I like that it's now visible which entities other players have highlighted / are interacting with

[hybrid briar]

debug option as full feature aye

currently exists just doesn't show their names

[misty falcon]

Was weird at start, but you get used to it very quickly. It's always weird when someone follows; it's like you're haunted

[tardy quarry]

I wonder if they will change how we get metal intermediates on Gleba

[stray wharf]

In less than a month and a half? Unlikely.

[tardy quarry]

u have no idea how good they are

what if it’s possible to implement it in less than a week?

[serene sage]

possible to implement? likely. possible to come up with, hammer out the details of, balance properly, and test? less likely.

[serene sage]

... okay bioleaching would be awesome but I don't think it's likely

[tropic basin]

Yeah, it would be awesome.
Biggest issue though is that it keeps most of the processing the same as Nauvis. Only the "mining" and "smelting" would be changed.

[hybrid briar]

builds modified radar

radar rains down a giant meteorite from orbit

resource deposit appears at a designated location in a giant 💥

[tardy quarry]

[tropic basin]

modified radar = logistics hub (the SA ground station, forgot the name)
giant meteorite = drop pod
resource deposit = delivered items

[hybrid briar]

I was talking about something a little more wild and kinetic for Gleba specifically, say thanks to an orbital debris field or something

[tropic basin]

yes, that's what I was expecting. then I tried mapping it to orbital drops :)

[tardy quarry]

I think it’s probably fine, if u look at Vulcanus oil processing, it need liquefaction but after that everything is same for chemical processing, so its also only ‘minging’ and ‘smelting’ of oil there is different

[tropic basin]

it's a neat idea, the resource deposits shouldn't be ores though (else: most of the processing the same as Nauvis)

[tropic basin]

yes, but how many "partially Nauvis" crafting trees are good game design?

[tardy quarry]

I’m thinking about having a compost ore where u need to use different bio fluids to smelt them to get different plates in refinery

[tropic basin]

Fulgora flips the table tree on its head.
Vulcanus keeps most of it, but has a major change with liquid metals.

[tardy quarry]

remember that Gleba already have a major change on oil processing

[tropic basin]

I haven't looked that closely on Alfonses charts, but Gleba essentially replaces the Nauvis tree with its own tree.

[stray wharf]

The primary difference is that oil processing is generally a side-show when it comes to making stuff, not the main event. Even in terms of the number of buildings, less than 30% of a megabase is devoted to oil processing.

[tardy quarry]

30% is still a lot isn’t it

and oil processing need larger footprint

[timid crescent]

I wonder if they've reduced the size of storage chests?

Lots of very large buffers in the B roll footage

Would be weird because logi chests seem unchanged

[mint berry]

Do we know if chests have any quality advantage other than HP?

[timid crescent]

We know that chests only get up bonus

[lunar wind]

that arm at 3:56 (on the left), really trying its hardest

[tardy quarry]

people use very large buffers and turn stone byproduct into landfill and store as a temporary void, seems reasonable

[timid crescent]

Fair enough

[tardy quarry]

tho I wonder if landfill will have any use on Vulcanus… maybe they just don’t bother sending the extra stone into lava for void

[misty falcon]

Speculation for today?

My speculation is certain QoL or certain military targets

[tardy quarry]

I have zero expectations

so I guess it will be a huge content fff

[red crow]

Do quality have any effect for landfill?

[tropic basin]

bragging rights
I expect the quality to be removed when placed, like all tilings.

[red crow]

Sounds reasonable

[misty falcon]

Yup, military targets 😉

[tropic basin]

Tank with all non-infinite upgrades and uranium ammo shreds biters so fast I don't even know how much damage it deals.
If I did the math right, non-explosive Uranium shells do 8448 damage/s.

[shrewd citrus]

remember that Quality is also a thing

and in a DPS race against an enemy with regen, every single bit of damage matters

[tropic basin]

Without resistance, that's 7 k/s or 4.2 seconds.
I guess the 30k health is for the babies.
So the Demolisher is a worthy opponent for a fully upgraded tank.

which says something
I've never actually used uranium ammo. Always migrated to spideys before it became relevant.

[tawny snow]

and the 1500hp/s regen too, probably

if only flamers worked on it...

[tropic basin]

while firing on the Demolisher, you can substract the regen from the DPS
hence 7k/s

[tawny snow]

I meant that 1500hp/s is for the babies as well

[tropic basin]

resistances are unknown, so I cannot adjust for them

[tawny snow]

I expect significantly more regen on bigger ones

[tropic basin]

Hmm, I don't expect it to be significantly higher for bigger ones.

It can turn the higher HP pool into an infinite HP pool if weapons don't scale accordingly.

[tawny snow]

there are probably some weapons we have not seen (or at least the new ammo on the steam pics)

[tropic basin]

The 4th tier turret for huge asteroids.
Possibly a cannon turret.

if the ammo is an upgrade from tank shells, the ammo will likely require tungsten
and metallurgic science

[radiant quiver]

My prediction or what I'm at least gonna try on how to insta kill the worm is ||build a nuclear reactor in my territory, heat it up, then lead a worm to destroy it and die in the explosion||

[tropic basin]

not sure one will suffice
make a row to be sure (with gaps)
a row of 2x2 reactors to be extra sure

[sand saddle]

#friday-facts message

you might need more than one reactor...

[tardy quarry]

a pile of reactors in U shape

actually, how much damage does one nuke deal?

I usually just assume it is instant kill everything

but now it seems to be a finite value when comparing with the health of new enemies

[tropic basin]

that is true in 1.1 from a practical perspective
like the map being functionally infinite

[lunar wind]

so QoL confirmed in the coming fff's?

[viscid ferry]

I'd say Qol after this one. But it's also the last 4 FFF's so anything they still want to show is on the table

IF there are fulgora enemies we could see them in 2 weeks? since they've now shown Gleba and Vulcanus enemies

[misty falcon]

I'd say yes. QoL next week makes sense.

[tropic basin]

we now have a good need for stronger weapons
might be a good chance to spring a turret FFF before the release
next week or in two weeks

Klonan also sort of promised us a 2nd round FFF for all planets, so a Fulgora FFF might also be scheduled

[late sentinel]

I don't see that happening with, what, 4 fffs?

[tropic basin]

Yeah, I counted 4 remaining FFFs
the turret FFF I want mainly because the other two have been 🔥
and Fulgora FFF is one of those "more on that later" things, even though it happened in Discord only
I'm not in the know though