Speculations

[barren oasis]

(a guy can dream, right? 🤣 )

[timid crescent]

I mean if such a tool would even make sense, I guess

[late sentinel]

What are we feeling my friends?

[serene sage]

Aquilo reveal

[tawny gulch]

Project WAIFU reveal

[late sentinel]

project WAIFU isn't real

[cobalt blaze]

#friday-facts message

[late sentinel]

My guess is still that it is some technical perhaps linux thing

boskid naming it was a twist though

[quiet gyro]

Spidertron 2: Spi (har)der.

[timid crescent]

I'm gonna need Raiguard to tell us which specific pixel it was they leaked.

[sand saddle]

Spidertron 2: Electric Boogaloo

[young breach]

I'm still predicting

[timid crescent]

3rd 4th 5th time's a charm

[misty falcon]

Biter dating sim is real?!

[late sentinel]

I'm feeling a small one.

Jaded nowadays

[timid crescent]

Project WAIFU: bWuhuo Additional entitIes For Utility

[cobalt blaze]

i wonder if it has anything to do with WAIFUs or if its just some absurd acrynom

[late sentinel]

absurd acrynom

[mint berry]

Let's just accept that we'll incorrectly predict Bwuhuo for the coming 5 weeks until it's actually released.

[young breach]

No I wont accept that, this week is

[viscid ferry]

there are currently 5 devs including E active in the chat

[tawny snow]

413 believers

we bwuhuing today

[chilly cloak]

forgot it was in a minute

YES!!!

[crystal dune]

It's bwuhuover

[weary widget]

we did it!!! I think

[crystal dune]

The name

I am genuinely shocked

How, why?

[weary widget]

[crystal dune]

It's not a roman god

Why

[tawny snow]

wow, can't believe we guessed the bwuhuo fff first try

[weary widget]

hmm

[red crow]

Maybe because Tellus/Terra sounds to nauvis like 😅

[tawny snow]

we've got copper and stone, but no iron

and the purple goop on the map reminds me of alien artifacts a bit

[chilly cloak]

there is iron

its tiny but is there

[weary widget]

#friday-facts message iron confirmed

[tawny snow]

cool

yeah makes sense bc of concrete

[olive seal]

So it wasn't "Bwuhuo", it was "Biology" or something similar I guess

[crystal dune]

I just realized this name could be evidence for my "Nauvis is a Venus analog and Gleba is an Earth analog" theory

Gleba means soil in Polish

Soil

Also known as "earth"

[crystal dune]

[weary widget]

if next week is anything other than Gleba 2 I'd be surprised

more planet mechanics, whatever its 50% base prod machine is, and 2-3+ other new buildings/machines/items

[vivid turret]

At last.

[dull grove]

Does anything industrial we can harvest from biological resources IRL come to mind?

[tardy quarry]

its a biological themed planet with fungus. I guess the production is also related

[late sentinel]

@tardy quarry thoughts on name change?

I'm personally not a fan of the break in pattern.

About the validate, but I believe boskid's sha-256 was that gleba was renamed

remember when we played rock paper scissors

[tardy quarry]

perhaps the wine and alcohol theme didn’t work well

[late sentinel]

Bacchus is still a fine name for it, no?

[dull grove]

What can we (humans) harvest from bio-resources that we can use in mechanical/electric/processing industry?

[late sentinel]

206aaae2741bf24bc0e097ab5c82b7962dd928d2551ffc65f257cae9e6db3542

206aaae2741bf24bc0e097ab5c82b7962dd928d2551ffc65f257cae9e6db3542

Perfect match!

[broken robin]

[late sentinel]

Well played, boskid, well played.

Perhaps you even figured i would not like the change, because there is a sorry in there 😆

[late sentinel]

Ugh, JG though..

"What's a Bacchus?!"

[broken robin]

🧮

[tardy quarry]

tbh I’m more interested in if there will be rain related mechanics like flooding

[dull grove]

Source: https://www.liebertpub.com/doi/10.1089/ind.2020.29230.nda

Chemicals Listed in Top Value-Added Chemicals from Biomass [...] [Uses:]
Polymers, Packaging polymers, corrosion inhibitor, Solvents

[tardy quarry]

I still believe the mysterious music fff planet was Gleba, just that it was another version/iteration

[honest summit]

Tbf we all thought he was memeing on bwuhuo. Frankly the devs are cowards for not changing the name from Gleba to Bwuhuo...

[broken robin]

😠

Doge is coward for not deleting his discord account. Do you think saying that changes anything on the likelyhood of the described event happening?

[honest summit]

brb deleting discord

[olive seal]

Each planet has multiple music tracks (1h per planet iirc), so it's just a different song of Gleba/Bwuhuo

[misty falcon]

Also, we now heard the :gleba: tune, and it's indeed not the same as part of the Aquilo tune from 406

[cobalt blaze]

everyone high five and congratulate gleba predictors

[honest summit]

so... nobody? XD

[weary widget]

see j5, all of our coping paid off

[tawny gulch]

For those who were here yesterday, I have finally finished packing

[misty falcon]

How long are you going for? 😮

[cobalt blaze]

algae lads ... we called it

[crystal dune]

The fact that the last one was literally yesterday too 😭😭😭

[viscid ferry]

This is a fungal planet though, algae are not fungi

[hybrid briar]

boars in the radioactive exclusion zone around chernobyl have elevated radiation levels not as a result of the meltdown but because they've been eating mushrooms which tap into radioactive groundwater present since weapons testing even earlier

that is to say it would be amusing if the only source of uranium on that planet was more involved, and gave another byproduct

[plain ermine]

No. It doesn't fit that's why it was changed. Bacchus being god of wine and party doesn't give the proper vibe

[crystal dune]

There are lichen and algae there along with the fungi

For example, the rock is made of stromatolite

[late sentinel]

That makes sense, was 'wine and party' ever the theme for it though?

I think I see what you are saying

[misty falcon]

What's a Bacchus?

[late sentinel]

I'm reasonably convinced that defense makes sense, so I suppose we all need to come to the final question of: 'what is a bacchus?'

[misty falcon]

It's a controversial political question

[crystal dune]

Well, I always figured oil/chemicals would symbolize wine (or would it be the other way around?)

[plain ermine]

the idea was to make it an organic planet. After it took more fungus and less jungle like approach the name was even less fitting

[viscid ferry]

I stand corrected

[wanton igloo]

So it was actually called bacchus at the time of that FFF?

[cobalt blaze]

I mean, it was in the picture

[plain ermine]

Of what fff? It stopped being bacchus even before the pixelated names were published

[wanton igloo]

The pixellated names one

[plain ermine]

It was renamed before that

I don't know why there was Bacchus there tbh. I would guess Klonan made pictures for the FFF long before the publishing

[wanton igloo]

Right, so it was Bacchus in that picture still, but already renamed behind the scenes

[plain ermine]

Well you weren't supposed to depixelate it

[wanton igloo]

Don't give this community reversible encryption if you don't want it decrypted

[late sentinel]

They learned that quick

[sand saddle]

“Not this time sandiego”

[sturdy oriole]

i have my suspicions any further confidential names will be censored more in the style of ███.

[sturdy oriole]

this is true

[hybrid briar]

creature names maybe? :P

[tropic basin]

The rename of Bwuhuo makes it more likely that the name sticks imho.

hopefully it'll spread beyond discord

[late sentinel]

You think we'll get Gleba mechanics in a week?

[hybrid briar]

an introduction and the new building yeah

and then meandering off to QoL stuff the week after :P

got 20 FFFs plus or minus a bit before the release after all

[mint berry]

Understandable that they renamed it to go from "wine and party" to "fungi (and algae?) and party".

[tawny snow]

unless the elements of Gleba they wanted to show were purely visual then yeah, new building next week

[misty falcon]

So far, they did a planet reveal and then mechanics reveal, so it's plausible

[sand saddle]

We have 3 planet reveal datapoints now. Can we guess the next one with more accuracy?

[misty falcon]

Aquilo is on release. That was the speculation for a while.

[sand saddle]

So based on the pattern… when is release?

[misty falcon]

October at the latest

[mint berry]

Factorio fans are too nerdy for their own good.

[sand saddle]

lol. But what does the graphed function say?

[honest summit]

Or next week is Aquilo, because they need to start showing all the planets in the background of other stuff they want to talk about, kinda like the intro to Gleba implies

[tawny snow]

Seems they have delayed Gleba as much as they possibly could due to it not being finished so I would not take the period between fulgora and this fff as an indicator for anything. We probably won't get much filler from now on I imagine

[weary widget]

/ each had a pt1/pt2 back to back

assuming the historical pattern is followed, friday we'll learn about 's new primary production machine, as well as new items/machines/techs as well

I want to see Aquilo too, but one foot in front of the other 😛

[indigo fog]

I've just realized... my birthday is November 1st, and it falls on a Friday this year

I might be getting the best birthday gift ever

[sand saddle]

You can’t make a pattern with 2 datapoints as your input. So there’s wasn’t a historical pattern to follow

How are 2 new planets 3 points of data?

The first fff was like 10 years ago

[indigo fog]

might as well be random noise

[sand saddle]

But with planet 1, 2 and 3, you could try to predict 4

Probably will be wrong. Anyway.

[weary widget]

even if it gets released before that, at least you get a birthday FFF!

[indigo fog]

true!

and since said "late October" then it might be before

though, as a programmer, I'm fairly confident they'll release it on a Monday instead

[hybrid briar]

Tuesday is common too

[weary widget]

#space-age message watch this be an omen for combat changes coming

[sturdy oriole]

possibly

that could be why the only combat stuff they’ve shown is the rocket turret and new biter decomposition sprites

[plain ermine]

Decaying biters don't influence the combat

[sturdy oriole]

but they’re pretty sick

i’m just looking for an excuse to talk about the decaying biters, they really wowed me

[plain ermine]

😄

[sturdy oriole]

it’s gonna be a lot cooler to see the aftermath of a big battle when you can see the biters rot. just hope factorio doesn’t get smell-o-vision any time soon

that’s what concrete is for!

[frigid topaz]

which Aquilo tune? that last audio is one 8 minute track for Gleba IMO. it changes a bit near the middle but you can hear parts from the first half come back again in the second half

[misty falcon]

It doesn't sound like the Gleba soundtrack we heard in the last fff

[tardy quarry]

it might be just an old version

or an alternative soundtrack

and they did mentioned “a planet full of…”
and in the latest fff “a planet full of life”

[crystal dune]

The line "a planet full of life" is a reference to the old trailer for the game (or something like that I don't remember exactly)

[tardy quarry]

how do u know

[late sentinel]

I can second for what cyber cider is saying

“A planet full of” is certainly a reference

[tardy quarry]

this tho

[crystal dune]

See "more than ever"

Implying it's happened before

Because it has

[late sentinel]

“Imagine a remote and unexplored planet full of life, richness, and natural resources” is the tagline for nauvis.

the exact wording makes it very clear that it’s a spin on this tagline.

[tardy quarry]

well it doesn’t mean that its only for the reference without any other extra meaning

those fff wordings could link together even if such reference exists

[late sentinel]

What are you even getting at?

[cobalt blaze]

The way I read this is

• Nauvis is full of live.
• Gleba is full of life, more so than Nauvis.

[cobalt blaze]

There's likely multiple tracks per planet, right? Not all nauvis music sounds alike.

[misty falcon]

music has the same vibe to it. The video and the 8 minute track sound different vibes to me

[cobalt blaze]

Alright. To me they sounded pretty similar but I get its subjective.

[wanton igloo]

They have how many hours of music per planet again?

[misty falcon]

1ish + 5-10% for proc gen

[cobalt blaze]

The other thing that makes me think the music FFF music was Gleba is the line right before it :

Listen to this track and imagine a remote and unexplored planet, full of...

[late sentinel]

That is what pepperbox was saying

We’re saying that’s the tagline for factorio planets in general - it’s a reference to the 2016 trailer, not gleba.

[hybrid briar]

I think it's specifically Gleba as a reference to the Nauvis trailer, just like how this FFF says that it's

Gleba is the one planet that has all the things needed to make a new Nauvis-like planet in Factorio, but it is still different on many other levels.
and
an exotic planet, never explored, and full of life (more than ever)

the full of life line is emphasized for Gleba specifically, so I would expect that line in the soundtrack teaser to be another part of its music

[late sentinel]

yes, but any other planet would get the same tagline

because it's a reference to the old trailer

Vulcanus would be a planet full of lava and etc..

Personally I think it is likely Gleba, but I also don't think that this is evidence of such.

[hybrid briar]

but it specifically said full of life in both cases

OH, no, didn't say life the first time (the music FFF)

hmmm

[cobalt blaze]

could it possibly reference fulgora, a planet described as lifeless?

[hybrid briar]

he's saying that this part could be more generic

I still think that the assumption it was about life, and playful interactions of new creatures, is correct...but it could be wrong

[cobalt blaze]

so you're saying they might be saying "imagine a planet full of .... SNOW"

[late sentinel]

that one just says 'full of'

No, I am imagining that nothing goes after the ...

It's just a vague reference to the 2016 trailer

[hybrid briar]

would it help if j5 had put a "e.g." there?

[late sentinel]

Yes, but my point is that there does not have to be a full sentence that makes sense

[hybrid briar]

you used a similar pattern here of offering continuations in generic fashion 😅

[late sentinel]

fair

Still, what I really mean is that the 'full sentence' doesn't have to sound good or make sense, because it's just a vague reference

[tardy quarry]

imo it was not just a vague reference because it’s related to a specific soundtrack for a specific planet

and it also makes sense that they put hidden references for upcoming fffs

[late sentinel]

In more interesting news - thoughts on Gleba having minimal resource patches?

[tardy quarry]

not necessarily for kickstarter because it could be iron/copper/stone from rocks

its also possible that ore patches are manually turned down for demonstration

another note about the 8min soundtrack: it’s very dynamic, yet the game doesn’t know what’s happening in the game other than which surface u r looking

I found this quite weird

so it is possible that the 8 min soundtrack is already outdated

[late sentinel]

If it's a kickstarter.. that would be kinda weird?

[hybrid briar]

kickstart or bootstrap?

[tardy quarry]

it would be kind of weird if they put ore patches there just for kickstarter

[hybrid briar]

is there a difference I'm missing?

[tardy quarry]

same thing I think

it’s likely there will be fungal/rain to ore patch interactions for the small size to make sense

[late sentinel]

That's how I feel too.

[sturdy oriole]

i really hope space age fleshes out production & utility science, they both give you a lot more upgrades than new stuff. especially after chemical science which feels like it unlocks everything, it ends up feeling like the only real new stuff is spidertron, artillery, and the rocket silo, at least for me

[tawny snow]

well, production now has so there's that

[vivid turret]

It seems to be mostly the opposite sadly, lose half of their stuff.

To that end, I kind of wish the rocket turret was unlocked at since it no longer has the artillery turret behind it.

[weary widget]

yeah looking at it that way it kinda sucks, but I'm just looking it the net gain from the 3 planets and the tech we know so far

and then of course SA endgame you get back all of the pushed back purple/gold sci stuff, not to mention whatever endgame techs/items

so we'll probably be exponentially more powerful than endgame vanilla with all of that together. call it coping, but thats how I see it

[crystal dune]

Just because techs are moved to another science pack, doesn't mean they will no longer require purple or yellow

They could just require both

The only known exception to this is uranium enrichment I believe, but that has a more crucial role now due to white science needing uranium, so it's understandable

[late sentinel]

beacons?, no?

[cobalt blaze]

you skipped logistics chests, personal fusion reactor and all the other best personal equipment
but yes i know what you mean

[crimson bough]

I would let the player some extra prod bonuses from just prod science as a treat

[crystal dune]

I really hope most if not all productivity researches take purple science

[tawny snow]

steel prod takes only, but that may be the only exception

tho I would not be surprised if plastic only ever took

[misty falcon]

Source?

[tawny snow]

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/16ja44x/comment/k0oof2s/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button there's this comment from the big man himself that mentions steel is pre space (so at worst)

I may be misremembering but I could have sworn there was specific mention of red and green only, cant find it rn tho :/

[tardy quarry]

afaik there were no red and green only infinite tech mentioned

there was only mentioning that mining prod don’t need other planet sciences

[misty falcon]

Something you can do before you go to space
i.e. you don't need other planets for it

It could still need and

[indigo fog]

Doesn't infinite techs need space science?

[tropic basin]

not anymore

[indigo fog]

Interesting

I guess the specific packs can change over the course of it

[misty falcon]

Yes, but they will eventually stop changing

[indigo fog]

Fair fair

[sturdy oriole]

logistic chest is just the upgrade to the chests you already have, fusion reactor is like better solar panels, all the other best equipment is upgrades, other than pld and exos, if i’m not wrong

[vivid turret]

"some personal equipment upgrades" were listed as being moved from Nauvis.

[sullen forge]

Do we think they will cover factory stuff about gleba this friday?

[crimson bough]

Thats been the pattern so far

[vivid turret]

We riot if they don't

[crimson bough]

They reveal the planet and let us speculate for a week what in the world theyre gonna do with it

[late sentinel]

wtf are ‘Tesla items’

[tawny gulch]

Items of Tesla

[cobalt blaze]

https://shop.tesla.com/category/vehicle-accessories/model-y

[late sentinel]

why did you choose model y

[agile river]

because y not

[tawny gulch]

My X was S-pecially cute, but she ran off with 3 other guys. Y!?

[vivid turret]

cybertruck

[agile river]

they probably had a cybertruck

dammit too late

[dull grove]

Someone's having jetlag.

[tawny gulch]

Fell asleep at 5:30pm and slept for 4.5 hours, I'm awake as can be right now

[agile river]

4.5 hours is... not a lot

[tawny gulch]

I almost never get a full 8 hours even when I'm not jetlagged

[agile river]

oh same

its usually the garbage truck that wakes me up at like 6

i s2g they go by my place like 3 times a week

[sturdy oriole]

so do we think the brainoids are probably definitely aquilo guys

the only planet of the first three wet enough for them is bwuhuo, who’s enemies stomp

[late sentinel]

the assumption that Gleba has only one kind of enemy will probably backfire on you when you arrive.

[sand saddle]

This not the way. Gotta push till like 9-10pm that first night. Then still wake up at 4am 😭😭

[tawny gulch]

It's 4:36 and I am still awake

The sun is rising

[sand saddle]

Yeah. Tell me about it

Go do a couple laps up and down the train station escalator by the office. That should wear you out good

[weary widget]

go to sleep

[sturdy oriole]

that would be really interesting, not just multiple types of one military target (eg. biters & spitters) but two separate military targets, (biters & spitters as well as brainoids). hmm.

so they could be glebian, but i’m still placing my bets they aren’t on bwuhuo

it would be cool but i don’t know that they’d do that.

[young breach]

Imo brainoids things dont fit the gleba vibe, so I think gleba will have other enemies

Maybe some large herbivores that are territorial

[tardy quarry]

I feel like is inhabitants that left the planet

[young breach]

Hmmm yeah that could be, and maybe they fled to the last planet

[crimson bough]

Its got a big brain so it must be intelligent

Or maybe it will walk right into an array of turrets

[young breach]

Maybe they use tactics, so a simple Wall of turrets wont be enough

(idk if this will work in factorio tho)

[crimson bough]

If i was smart i would get machines to do work for me

Like attacking

[young breach]

Exactly, maybe they will turret creep your base

[late sentinel]

They might not even be in the game anymore.

Remember to not forget any options

[hybrid briar]

easter egg secret boss hidden on the cow level? :P

[late sentinel]

Perhaps forget some options @hybrid briar

[tawny snow]

will be the planet that needs interrupt in interrupt, or will it be aquilo?

gleba seems to me like the most dynamic planet, with all the full of life thing going on, makes sense you would need it there

[tropic basin]

I'd guess it's on Aquilo solely because it seems like a more advanced mechanic (both the interrupted interrupt and whatever it is that creates the need for it)

Is there even a reasonable guess out there as to why we'd need an interrupted interrupt?

[weary widget]

some kind of emergency event where you need to get to trains to some sheltered area?

[tropic basin]

interrupts are only evaluated when leaving stations. trains that are hauling stuff over half the map won't get to a station anytime soon

can't be much of an emergency when it can wait a couple minutes

[weary widget]

yeah, I don't know then

[tropic basin]

we could use that to change train behaviour though
before assaulting an enemy hive or something, we can use circuit conditions to manually stop all trains?
up to 1.1 circuits have been optional though, so I'm not sure about it. it's also kinda vague

[tardy quarry]

the only scenario that interrupt in interrupt makes sense is when u have a long interrupt if I understand it correctly

but why would we ever need a long interrupt

long interrupt mean train need to go from A to B to C or longer, but why we can’t just have the train go from A to B, and have another train go from B to C?

unless in this case the train is not just about moving cargo

[honest summit]

I thought the interrupt in interrupt was so you can make sure your trains on fulgora head to safety at night time

[cobalt blaze]

nope, trains are not affected by lightning

[hybrid briar]

isn't it possible for the nested interrupt to be motivated by need for dynamic dispatch of wildly varying crafting priority with input rerouting?

like, with the alternative being twice as many trains or something else steep in impact?

[sullen forge]

yes.

I mentioned something like a resource vein becomes exposed for a limited period of time

[errant crest]

that might be quite fun. maybe aquilo will have freezing/unfreezing cycles, that will hide and expose different ores. and maybe drastically change delivering priorities from fuel at freezing to bullets at unfreezing

[late sentinel]

I wouldn't use interrupt in interrupt for this though

[timid crescent]

Yeah that still doesn't make sense for interrupt-in-interrupt

As mentioned before it's only useful when you have another interrupt with more than one station in it's schedule

But why you would ever want to change which station a train will go to during an interrupt instead of just delaying it with a signal is beyond me

[late sentinel]

My personal take is that it is a red herring and not the best solution

and that is why we are not thinking of it

It's just 'one way' to solve the problem

[timid crescent]

My initial proof on concept use for it was to use it for prioritising sending products to certain stations, but that's already handled by station priority

Maybe if you really don't want trains waiting in certain places for extended periods of time, you can have an interrupt-in-interrupt: In interrupt, Destination full, time passed 30(?) seconds -> send to depot

I mean a potentially simple one is: In Interrupt, absolutely no fuel left, go get fuel you silly goose

[errant crest]

how about more extreme constrains then. let's say "freeze" ore without complex processing will melt and gets wasted when season change, and same with "unfreezed" ore - gets ruined with extreme cold without complex processing. so, the moment that season is close to an end - it's worth it to forcefully redirect trains to deliver all ore possible

[timid crescent]

But interrupts only trigger when a train leaves a station

So it's not exactly great for anything time based

I was more thinking you don't want a full train sitting at an outpost, so you send it to a depot? But I'm not sure that needs interrupt-in-interrupt either

But I'm currently thinking:
Train goes to outpost to pick up ore, then the interrupt sends it to drop the ore at a given station.
The station it's trying to go to is full, so the interrupt-in-interrupt triggers on (destination full) and sends it to a depot instead
The train then goes back into the ore interrupt sending it to the station, repeat.

But that would create other issues where you could have far too much of one ore taking up all of your generic trains

Which could be solved with circuits making it so that you never have a full train waiting at an outpost without a destination anyway, making the whole initial idea not worthwhile...

[errant crest]

sending to depot not gonna be planet related

[timid crescent]

I just don't know why you would want to send a train to another station (requesting the same thing) based on an interrupt condition rather than just using stop priorities, which you can also set with circuits.

It's very strange, and I'm inclined to agree with Dylan in that it's potentially a red herring and not necessary to use. I hope not but I just lack the insight to guess what it could be used for.

[late sentinel]

getting highlighter notifications that are actually my name is a new one

[errant crest]

maybe a red herring. requirement for seasons deposits becomes quite convoluted for interrupt in interrupt to be good solution, so mb not it.
can planet strongly encourage making long chains of stops, even in interrupts?

[vivid turret]

It's described as both very specific and crucial somehow at the same time.

[crystal dune]

At least some of them still do

First image is just for context

[tardy quarry]

so far they mention that one of the infinite tech doesn’t need space science, which means most of them probably will need

[sturdy oriole]

wonder if they will fix the issue of upgradeable techs saying you can research a level that requires science packs you don’t have researched

always bugged me

[tardy quarry]

About interrupt in interrupt:

1. stations has priority settings so don’t need int-in-int for this.
2. regular interrupts have priority settings (upper one in the schedule has higher priority) so int-in-int is also not for this.
3. interrupts including int-in-int are evaluated when train leaves station, so can’t deal with emergency.

Based on above the only reasonable application for int-in-int is when u have a long schedule interrupt. But I don’t get why we would need a long schedule instead of A to B kind of schedule

unless the train itself is the resource that’s being processed…?

[timid crescent]

A new type of wagon could be interesting.

[tardy quarry]

and the schedule might not even for trains

[timid crescent]

Would it insert the int-in-int into the existing interrupt, so it would continue with the existing interrupt after the int-in-int is done?

Idk it's very strange to think about

Normally, when an interrupt is activated, other interrupts won't be able to interfere until it is finished. But in some specific cases, this is too limiting, so we added a another special interrupt condition, called "In interrupt". This allows the interrupt to trigger while another interrupt is in progress, which clears the original interrupt and replaces it with the new interrupt targets.

No, it clears the existing interrupt

[tardy quarry]

yes

after an int-in-int the train will go back to the original interrupt step it was doing

[timid crescent]

No it wouldn't, as it is cleared.

It would have to start the interrupt again, if the conditions are still met

[tardy quarry]

hummmm

[timid crescent]

I'm seeing less and less potential use cases the more time passes...

The devs have definitely been cooking something I guess

[tardy quarry]

while another interrupt is in progress

does it mean it can be triggered mid route

what does “in progress” mean here

if the interrupt has only one target

[timid crescent]

"In progress" would mean that the interrupt schedule is still in progress.

It wouldn't do anything if the existing interrupt had only one stop

[tardy quarry]

I think there are multiple ways to interpret this

[timid crescent]

Say if the existing interrupt had schedule A > B > C
All other interrupts wouldn't trigger until the train finishes station C, but an int-in-int could trigger at A or B

[tardy quarry]

we may have drawn the conclusion too fast that int-in-int can’t be triggered mid route

because having a long interrup schedule is a very strict condition

[timid crescent]

Yeah there's no way it would trigger mid-route, they changed the way disabling stations worked to prevent rerouting mid route.

[tardy quarry]

and if the int-in-int clears the original interrupt progress it makes even less sense

[timid crescent]

I would consider rerouting while not at a station to be a no-go

If there's some way for a train to be 'contaminated' maybe?

I think it's very possible there's some new type of wagon that could warrant this

[tardy quarry]

but if its just a refuel int-in-int u would want the train to go back to the mid interrupt step

[timid crescent]

It needs to travel to multiple locations to finish whatever it does, but is sensitive or unpredictable and could need a different destination?

I don't know why you couldn't just split it into branching interrupts though

[tardy quarry]

I can only think of something that the train cannot unload before it’s fully processed, or the schedule is not even for trains but for some new logistics method

[timid crescent]

Could it be useful for space platforms?

[tardy quarry]

no idea, but it won’t be “on a specific planet” Id say

[timid crescent]

The wording of "it is on a planet we didn't reveal yet" Makes me think it's not referring to platforms though

yeah

I would be very surprised if there is another logistics method that uses train schedules though. It's gotta be trains that need int-in-int somehow

[tardy quarry]

if its train then probably for a new wagon type

that interact with environment directly instead of loading/unloading goods

[timid crescent]

An enemy type that has an obsession with attacking trains and only appears at night?

schedule to leave when night and interrupt-in-interrupt to go to a safe place

[tardy quarry]

maybe a train that attracts the big foot on

but I don’t see why we can’t have multiple stationary attractors at different locations that turns on and off for routing

[tropic basin]

yes, most infinite science will still require space science
but "all infinite sciences require space science" is not true anymore
I know it's retrograde nitpicking, but that's what I meant :)

[crystal dune]

I see

[leaden socket]

I wonder what will mining productivity cost

Does it need packs from the 4 new planets?

[tropic basin]

Might be Nauvis only or Nauvis + the mid-tier ones. Don't think Aquilo + post endgame will be required.

[tardy quarry]

mining prod won’t take planet science according to

[misty falcon]

Not that it will be cheap. It still needs and it's gets expensive quite quickly in 1.1 as well.

I assume prod will require science. (and ?) will require . And possibly prod will need science.

[tawny snow]

kovarex said steel is pre space, other than that I agree with all the planet positionings

and is about ~20x cheaper, not accounting for uranium, and you can use productivity both in the silo for cheaper rockets and in the assembler in space for more science packs

[misty falcon]

Naa it's likely all

It was said you don't need to launch into space for it

[serene sage]

iirc they mentioned an infinite science that only took

[misty falcon]

They mentioned an infinite science "you can make before leaving Nauvis". Some people think it means "before or at blue science". I think it means all sciences.

I'd love to be proven wrong, but I don't remember anything about only

[weary widget]

yeah, for something as with as much benefit as prod research, I think having it start at / undervalues it in a way. as a starting point is more realistic and after the first/several levels growing into /

[tardy quarry]

they mentioned an infinite science that doesn’t need space science

if anything, I believe all infinite prod tech will require

[tropic basin]

is it because of the name?

[vivid turret]

D'you think mining productivity will require the same sci-packs it does now?

[weary widget]

I'd be surprised if that changes

[late sentinel]

I believe that is stated actually @vivid turret

[young breach]

Any speculations for tomorrow?

[tardy quarry]

fungus farming

“as always, let your thoughts grow in the usual places”

[misty falcon]

It might not be a FFF, if they're mixing things up for us

[young breach]

Yeah I think so too, but I have no idea how they are going to implement it. Just a greenhouse building seems kinda idk

[tardy quarry]

nah planet part 2 for sure

[misty falcon]

must be

[tardy quarry]

otherwise they don’t need to show last week

the only reason they need to show part 1 when its still a lot of WIP is because they want to show part 2

[plain ermine]

nah part2 can also wait

[crystal dune]

Definitely not, greenhouses in mods are really boring

[tardy quarry]

[tawny snow]

yeah, it can wait until tomorrow

[young breach]

Yeah that's what I meant

[tawny gulch]

Last week was a fake-out, this week you're getting the real Bwuhuo FFF!

[misty falcon]

What's a Bwuhuo?

[young breach]

Lets gooo

Wow you dont need a Rocket to build a space platform, there is just a button that makes one

[tawny gulch]

False, you need both

Create the space platform in the GUI, then your rocket launches stuff to build it.

https://factorio.com/blog/post/fff-381

[young breach]

Oh no magical button

[viscid ferry]

I think we need to collect (farm?) different kinds of fungi in the different biomes and then make a chemical processing plant somewhere centrally

The ores we saw last week are probably not accurate but if they are i assume they're just there to help you get started before you're processing the planet-resources

[plain ermine]

you can't fool us thats Gleba icon

[young breach]

[tardy quarry]

is that space map?

[tawny gulch]

Indeed, that button has been shown multiple times in FFFs

I'm actually a bit surprised that there has been zero speculation about it.

[tardy quarry]

ah yeah

[crystal dune]

Secret 6th planet named "space map"

[tawny snow]

the before and after of the planet icons

name a better glowup

[young breach]

I just assumed it was a vieuw of how the planets were situated, like the solar system in map form

Like in SE

[errant crest]

hm, so multiple platforms can orbit one planet

[sand saddle]

Subway map for space platforms.

[tardy quarry]

iirc a dev mentioned that the connections between planets on the space map are literally straight lines

[tawny snow]

imagine the pain of having to handle actual orbits in game

you are one short and have to wait 1h for the next transfer window

[errant crest]

KSP in factorio? sounds fun

[plain ermine]

krastorio space program

[viscid ferry]

Oh i haven't thought about that. It probably won't be very complex but it would be nice if it shows the locations of all the space platforms in real time along all the routes.

[dreamy eagle]

You need to position the intergalactic transceiver into a Nauvis lagrange point. And keep it there.

[tardy quarry]

we will probably learn more about space map before Aquilo

[leaden socket]

What about the star?

I want to put solar panels in low solar orbit

[sand saddle]

SpaceX is playing this right now.

[misty falcon]

Booster "landed" successfully in water. Ship is gliding and will soon try to reenter and "land" as well.

[young breach]

Beautiful, I went there in april the booster was Already on the platform then and the ship was in the hangar but the door was open

[vivid turret]

I will spontaneously combust if we don't get part 2

[hybrid briar]

Does it count if I speculated about getting higher quality space rocks for skipping ahead in the crafting progression with that if you go to certain places? :D

Going further afield on a planet: Higher density.
Going further afield in space: Higher quality.
wheeee

[young breach]

film it so we have a consolation prize

[viscid ferry]

if we don't get it tomorrow we can continue speculating every week like the last month

[soft pumice]

Building on the earlier conversation about not yet knowing the need for interrupts in interrupts for trains, i'v been waiting for more info on why manual loading of a rocket would be 'basically required' as opposed to using the logistic network. from fff-381: 'The important part is that you can still ignore the logistic network, and stockpile the silos manually, which can be very practical in special situations, or basically required in some of the yet-undisclosed Space Age content, but it is an exception. '

[hybrid briar]

I imagine one of those special situations could be if a space platform gets too damaged and you need to go fix it

and maybe the required part is if there's some sort of delivery we have to make outside of our specifications 🤔

[misty falcon]

Only if it's around a planet. But if it's stranded in space? It's pretty much doomed.

[leaden socket]

It can only be saved by another platform going near it and transfering items to it in some way

[misty falcon]

A surface can have only one platform. Unless they have some method of going "to" another platform and transferring between them, then I don't see this happening

[leaden socket]

I don't know whether item transfer between platforms will be possible though

Maybe one platform can remotely "send" item to another, just like sending from orbit to ground

[tardy quarry]

but those has nothing to do with silo

[cobalt blaze]

ive speculated about it!

however! dont think there's much to go off of so there's not much to say

#friday-facts message

enjoy my speculations

[hybrid briar]

I think a space map would be done more like how SE did it, for the same reasons--trying to populate a sparse grid of space is wasteful, whereas a tree structure can have any and all relevant nodes linked directly, and even support insertion of references as needed!

[cobalt blaze]

I think thats likely too. Just a UI that shows you the situation abstractly. But I can dream

[hybrid briar]

mm it's true that they could show it as a grid and store it internally as a tree

[sullen forge]

Randomly spawning ore veins where you have miners already set up to capture goodies, would make sense.

Other possibility is logistics simulator of moving goods demanded by an entity in order to receive another good. Sending the wrong item to the wrong place at the wrong time yields penalties, the opposite would yield benefits.

[timid crescent]

Randomly spawning additional ore in existing outposts doesn't affect trains at all.
Trains also don't lend themselves to precise timings, you won't know which train will be sent, and what traffic it may encounter on its route. It would be far simpler to stockpile whatever said entity could request nearby to be delivered by bot/belt.

One thing I have considered since is that the "in interrupt" is itself a condition, it will only ever trigger once some other interrupt has been triggered.

Still not sure why you would use it over something like branching interrupts, but it does make it stand out even more from regular interrupts.

[sullen forge]

dont think about ore patches, think about ore veins

[timid crescent]

There isn't a difference, and if there was it's still disconnected from train routing.

[sullen forge]

think keywords "flare up", "inflamation"

"spontaneous"

"fluid"

"temporary"

view the resource as something that in one instant, has a high quantity of goods to be retrieved, and in another moment, not as much

[timid crescent]

Your not helping explain anything.
Interrupts are also not good for anything "spontaneous". They are only processed when a train leaves a stop.

Anything with variable demand can be satisfied with a buffer, interrupts have nothing to do with it

[sullen forge]

This is regarding interupts inside of interupts, which can be triggered by a station activation/deactivation

[serene sage]

if the ore is only there half the time, what's preventing us from just building twice as many mines?

[timid crescent]

They are processed when a train leaves a stop. Activation/deactivation also doesn't work like it does in 1.1

[sullen forge]

think oil fields that change their yields over time

[timid crescent]

disabled will be the same as limit=0, which doesn't prevent already en-route trains from arriving

Oil fields do change their yields over time

[serene sage]

this is what I am doing. what makes it different from a regular oil field, in the long run?

[sullen forge]

irrelevant against the hypothetical

[sullen forge]

one moment the yield is 5/s, the next its 20/s

[serene sage]

moment-to-moment, sure. but the Factory cares not about transient moments.

[timid crescent]

So use a buffer to absorb the variance and only consider the average output

[sullen forge]

buffers may not make sense if the area is too hostile to keep there

[serene sage]

if the area is too hostile for a buffer, it's too hostile for a mining outpost

[timid crescent]

Trains just cannot solve this problem, even with interrupts.

They cannot change their routing while in transit

[sullen forge]

thats not the point. Imagine bebopping along to an oil field and it pops up that a new vein has just increased its yeild. We activate the station and have the train reroute to it.

[timid crescent]

Once they leave a stop, they will go to the next stop in their schedule

[sullen forge]

its also worth considering that the resource cant be buffered

[timid crescent]

That doesn't even need interrupts, just adjust the train limit on the station

[serene sage]

any resource that a train can transport can be buffered.

[sullen forge]

we dont know if the particular item can be trasported

[timid crescent]

[serene sage]

then what's the point of trains???

[timid crescent]

So why would interrupts help if it cannot be transported

[sullen forge]

to redirect to pick up from newly spawned resources

[timid crescent]

But they can't be transported

[sullen forge]

perhaps it more of a "degrades over time" scenario

like the longer the item idles, it changes state

going from something useful to something useless

[serene sage]

assign one train per field. when yield spikes, it transports it back to the main base.

[timid crescent]

Thankfully we don't have any item like that, and I expect not to.
But to engage with the hypothetical, why would I rely on an unstable interrupt system to transport something so volatile? This resource would 100% get it's own dedicated route.

[sullen forge]

precisely.

[serene sage]

this does not need interrupts.

[timid crescent]

So you don't need interrupts, let alone interrupts-in-interrupts?

[sullen forge]

sorry, misread

jumping convos like its no ones buisness

[sullen forge]

the closest scenario that comes to mind is arcospheres from SE

delivering the item to one location, suddenly the recipe changes, and we need to reroute.

but oops, ran out of fuel. Better go back to the fuel depot

[timid crescent]

That has nothing to do with interrupt-in-interrupt

[sullen forge]

first interrupt = account for recipe change
Second interrupt = need to refuel

[serene sage]

arcosphere requirements don't change, just the results.

[sullen forge]

i never got that far , but still everything is on the table as to why an interupt inside of an interupt is needed. This could be a plausible explanation

[serene sage]

"need to refuel" requires a higher-priority interrupt, not a meta-interrupt (unless you're running them dangerously close to empty)

[sullen forge]

i think the interrupts are per station

[serene sage]

and even then I don't think it would work

[timid crescent]

They're schedule based, not station based

they're per-train

[sullen forge]

thats kinda what i meant

you cant really make a scehdule without stations

waypoints arent a thing

[serene sage]

"interrupts are global" - FFF 389

[timid crescent]

Interrupt-in-interrupts will only ever trigger if the train is in a multi stop interrupt.

But the problem is, why would you need an interrupt that sends a train to multiple stops? Theoretically you could split the interrupt into multiple steps, into a sort of tree rather than interrupting the previous interrupt.

[sullen forge]

because i like setting up my trains like that

less trains in the network

[timid crescent]

Basically
a) an interrupt with stops X>Y>Z is triggered.
b) the train reaches stop X, and an int-in-int is triggered to stop the train going to Y>Z

But why

[timid crescent]

They said it would be required, not that it would be something that 'someone who just likes it' can use

Interrupt in interrupt
Normally, when an interrupt is activated, other interrupts won't be able to interfere until it is finished. But in some specific cases, this is too limiting, so we added a another special interrupt condition, called "In interrupt". This allows the interrupt to trigger while another interrupt is in progress, which clears the original interrupt and replaces it with the new interrupt targets.

There is some very specific case where this is a crucial thing to have, but it is on a planet we didn't reveal yet, so more on that later 🙂 .

This is where the speculation started.

[sullen forge]

Re on this, the fuel interrupt example covers this usecase

[timid crescent]

Again, that would just need a higher priority interrupt

[serene sage]

only if you're using multi-stop interrupts

[timid crescent]

And that as well

[serene sage]

why would you ever use multi-stop interrupts?

I'm sure there must be a reason. I can't think of it.

[sullen forge]

ok, lets use the refueling example

say we interupt because we need to refuel

normally we would go to station X to pick up Fuel A, but suddenly we find that station Y is offering Fuel B which is of much higher quality than Fuel A, and we would like fuel B instead. In this case, we would have an interupt inside the interupt to prioritize that

[timid crescent]

That's not how interrupts work

The train would go to station X, pickup fuel A, then the interrupt would not trigger when it leaves as it is full of fuel

[serene sage]

no, we'd have a higher priority interrupt for higher priority fuel

[sullen forge]

you cant do that because they explicitly state the interupt takes priority over other interupts

[timid crescent]

Just change the priority

[sullen forge]

if one triggers at the scope nothing else in that scope will fire

[serene sage]

"Normally, when an interrupt is activated, other interrupts won't be able to interfere until it is finished." have it check for Fuel B before it checks for Fuel A.

[sullen forge]

switch String {
  case A : 
    switch String {
      case A-A
      case A-B
    }
  case B
  case C
}

@timid crescent in a given instance, once you go down a path, you cant change it. Changing the priorities doesnt help us if the change occurs after the route is initially calculated

[serene sage]

correct! place case B first

[sullen forge]

that doesnt work if case B isnt chosen first

[timid crescent]

So change the order?

[serene sage]

you mean, if you acquire Fuel B while en route to Fuel A?

[sullen forge]

bingo

[timid crescent]

That... isn't how trains/interrupts work

[sullen forge]

thats what their saying they are going to implement

[serene sage]

they don't update their schedules while en route.

[sullen forge]

then whats the point of intterupts then?

[timid crescent]

To pick a destination when leaving a stop

[serene sage]

"Whenever the train wants to leave the current station, it checks all the interrupts one by one, evaluating the interrupt conditions. If the conditions are fulfilled, the interrupt is activated and the targets are pasted into the current schedule as temporary stops."

[sullen forge]

thats a normal schedule

[timid crescent]

"I have (steel) > go to (steel drop)"

"I have (plastic) > go to (plastic drop)"

[serene sage]

to dynamically pick a destination, instead of the same one each time

[ripe gyro]

Friday Facts #389 - Train control improvements

Hello, trains are one of our most favorite parts of the game. We already talked about the ways we improved rails (FFF-377), so its time to talk about how we improved the way you can control the trains that ride on them.

[sullen forge]

so lets do the inverse, if i dont have steel, which pickup do i want to go to?

[timid crescent]

The interrupts are very simple, you specify a list of conditions to trigger the interrupt, and a list of target stations + wait conditions that will be added to the schedule. Whenever the train wants to leave the current station, it checks all the interrupts one by one, evaluating the interrupt conditions. If the conditions are fulfilled, the interrupt is activated and the targets are pasted into the current schedule as temporary stops.

[serene sage]

not (steel drop)

[timid crescent]

https://cdn.factorio.com/assets/blog-sync/fff-389-refuel-interrupt.png

[sullen forge]

what if theres more than 1 steel pickup?

[timid crescent]

More than 1 what?

It doesn't matter?

[sullen forge]

yes it does

[serene sage]

that's handled under different logic, I think. you can already have multiple stops with the same name. that's not new.

[timid crescent]

https://cdn.factorio.com/assets/blog-sync/fff-389-item-interrupt.png

[sullen forge]

sure, but what if i want to go to the one that has the most steel?

[timid crescent]

Then change the priority of the station depending on how much steel it has

[weary widget]

what are we speculating?

[sullen forge]

you cant change bloody priority

[timid crescent]

Yes you can

cmon man

[sullen forge]

no you cant. What would changing the order do?

[sullen forge]

the usecase of the interupt in the interupt

[ripe gyro]

Friday Facts #395 - Generic interrupts and Train stop priority

Hello, Another trains FFF!

[weary widget]

I see I see

[serene sage]

Train stops have a default priority of 50, and players can adjust it to any number they want from 0 to 255. The slider in the train stop suggests values from 10 to 90, but you can be more precise with the textfield. We also added the ability to set the priority using the circuit network.

[weary widget]

circuit network control is pretty cool

[serene sage]

use the circuit network to see how badly you need steel and set the priorities as required

[sullen forge]

thats a complicated solution

[weary widget]

potential applications with quality too

[timid crescent]

?? how it's literally a single combinator (I guess it would be 2 actually)

[sullen forge]

and remember, circuits are, and always have been an optional feature.

[timid crescent]

So is train stop priorities

[sullen forge]

fair point

[serene sage]

it's a complicated request

[sullen forge]

that can be simplified via an interupt inside an interupt

[serene sage]

how

[sullen forge]

it allows for nesting In cases to cover more advanced branching cases

if (refuel) {
  if (fuel grade a available) {
    ...
  }
  if (fuel grade b available) {
    ...
  }
}
else if (iron ore pickup) {
   if (station a filled) {
      ...
   }
   else if (station b filled) {
      ...
   }
}
else if (copper ore pickup) {
  ...
}

You can theoretically do the same thing by condensing the branching cases into their own specific interupt, but that can become complicated really quickly. Logic reduction is not intuitive so this can also be viewed as QOL feature

[serene sage]

you can't make interrupt-in-interrupt branch off specific interrupts. they're global.

[sullen forge]

they are scoped though

[serene sage]

?

[sullen forge]

int a; // global scope
public void setup() {
  int b = 5; // scoped only to setup
}

public void setup2() {
  int c = 4; // scoped only to setup2
}

In this example, a is available to all, but b and c are available only to their respective methods

[serene sage]

(also, trains aren't designed for complicated computation. that's what the circuit network is for)

[sullen forge]

(thats not what they have been developing them towards)

[serene sage]

yes. I know how scope works. but you can't have Int-in-Int branch off just one specific interrupt. it has to be all of them.

[...] we added a another special interrupt condition, called "In interrupt". This allows the interrupt to trigger while another interrupt is in progress, which clears the original interrupt and replaces it with the new interrupt targets.

[timid crescent]

Okay, do this instead:
If no fuel > go to "refuel" station
"refuel" has two stops. One is priority 100 and has good fuel, one is priority 50 and has bad fuel
both "refuel" stops change their limits or disable when there isn't any fuel.

[serene sage]

(or, more realistically, build more good fuel production)

[sullen forge]

what if we need to refuel while we are doing an interupt that has nothing to do with refueling?

[serene sage]

that would require a multi-stop interrupt, which is long enough that running out of fuel in the middle of it is a legitimate concern

[timid crescent]

Well that's the issue, why would you? I have yet to see a required case for a multi-stop interrupt

And yeah, the route would have to be absurdly long

[serene sage]

in that hypothetical scenario, meta-interrupts would be a reasonable choice

[sullen forge]

because it hasnt been released yet

[timid crescent]

No kidding. I have yet to see even a speculated required case for a multi-stop interrupt

That you couldn't just break into multiple smaller interrupts

[sullen forge]

i made a suggestion about resource veins popping up and disappearing after a period of time. Our train may have other priorities like delivering materials between factories when suddenly the vein opens up and we need to send all our trains to pick up the goodies

[timid crescent]

...which you could use regular interrupts for

or just a buffer, or both

[sullen forge]

Our train may have other priorities like delivering materials between factories

again if deciding between priorities, and the priorities are global, and we at one point decide on doing an interupt, will that proceed to execute the higher priority interrupt? Im not seeing evidence of this.

[serene sage]

that's how priorities work.

[timid crescent]

The interrupts are processed in order, so interrupts at the top are a higher priority than interrupts lower down

[serene sage]

a prioritized option means that you will choose it over less prioritized options.

[sullen forge]

In particular,

i A = 100
i B = 50
i c = 30

Interupt B is chosen because the condition for A has not fired. Now before B has finished executing, A activates. I am inclined to believe that under this system, the train will finish B first, before doing A

[timid crescent]

Once one triggers, another cannot trigger until it is finished, unless it has the in-interrupt condition, at which point it can trigger when a train is leaving a stop as a part of a multi-stop interrupt

which is quite the restriction to use

[serene sage]

this is correct. I have yet to see a reason to care.

[sullen forge]

regarding this, imagine the logic between factories is done via interrupts

[serene sage]

the logic would all have to be under a single interrupt for interrupt-in-interrupt to matter.

[timid crescent]

It's not just about imagining some case that could be solved with int-in-int, but one that is required to be solved by it

[sullen forge]

what you are saying this covers, and what its actually doing are two different things. You cant adjust priority for a meta interupt scenario if the meta interupt MUST take priority over everything else AFTER an interupt fires

[timid crescent]

They could have just left int-in-int out of the game, but they added it while also stating that it would be required on some yet-to-be-revealed planet

[serene sage]

if you want to use int-in-int, go ahead! I'm happy for you! but I can't think of anything that will force me to use it.

[timid crescent]

Not even something that will force me to use it, but one where it is the most convenient solution

[serene sage]

(also ftr it looks like an int-in-int can trigger in the middle of normal behavior, not just during an interrupt)

[sullen forge]

(as it should)

[timid crescent]

It's a condition applied to an interrupt. So you can say "only activate if x, y and in interrupt" so I'm not sure it can

I guess if you duplicated the conditions so it could activate both when in interrupt and without it would

[sullen forge]

recalling my logic reduction case, yes you can condense the branches down, but that makes things really clunky

its not good for readability which is HUGE in programming.

and heaven forbid if the interupt needs to be tweaked. Now i have to go to all the places i condensed it to make the change

[serene sage]

hmm, good point, I'm not sure anymore

[sullen forge]

better to have one place to modify the interrupt as opposed to N interrupts that have that conditional attached

[timid crescent]

if you duplicated it, saying "if (x and y and in interrupt) or (x and y)" it should work I reckon

[timid crescent]

Good thing we have train groups now

[serene sage]

what about if (x and y and (in interrupt or not in interrupt))?

[timid crescent]

Yeah that's better

The thing is because it clears the previous interrupt, it's not something you would do without consideration for all multi-stop interrupts

If you even have any, the issue we're trying to come up with a solution for

[serene sage]

you could also do (in interrupt or TRUE) if (not in interrupt) isn't available

[sullen forge]

ive litterally listed scenarios for this.

idk what else to tell you at this point

[timid crescent]

For needing an interrupt with multiple stops that can't be broken down into smaller single stop interrupts?

I don't think you have

[sullen forge]

scalability

[serene sage]

none of the scenarios you've listed have been compelling

[sullen forge]

the counter arguments that have been provided are not correct either.

[serene sage]

• ore variance is solved with a buffer
• fuel priorities are solved with regular priorities

what else was there? I might have forgotten one

[sullen forge]

ore degradation

[serene sage]

right, thanks

• ore degregation is solved with a dedicated train line

[sullen forge]

degradation

[serene sage]

(autocorrect)

[sullen forge]

dedicated train line doesnt feel right. I like my multi network trains and a particular behavior forcing me to design my trains like that strikes me as wrong

not to say its incorrect, but a problem should have multiple solutions

[serene sage]

right, there should be options. but they call int-in-int "crucial", and a straightforward alternative to it makes it substantially less crucial.

[timid crescent]

It wouldn't necessarily force you, but at the same time it still wouldn't need in-interrupt, just the highest stop priority for pickup

[sullen forge]

theres also the common question of trains vs belts

[honest summit]

I think it will be hard to guess because it's "very specific"

According to the FFF

[timid crescent]

Very hard to guess. There's also the consideration of space platforms, but the wording has me believing they are talking about trains for this 'crucial' use case.

[sullen forge]

oh yeah, snow plows

[serene sage]

oh I hope there are snow plows, that sounds fun

[honest summit]

Snow piercer train

[sullen forge]

im getting the running feeling that aquillo may involve something with things freezing over and we need to heat things up in order to get it to work

[honest summit]

I also like this idea and hope it becomes a mod if it's not true

[sturdy oriole]

good grief

we dont know when it will be useful yet

iii will make sense when iii is revealed

[timid crescent]

Still wondering what the arm is attached to

https://cdn.factorio.com/assets/blog-sync/fff-402-superfast-foundry.mp4

[mint berry]

A torso, I think.

Sorry 🙂

[timid crescent]

That is if it's actually an arm

[mint berry]

Do you think it's part of the thing shown in the FFF-389 thumbnail? It's very hard to see since it's so tiny.

[timid crescent]

I would say it doesn't look like the shapes match, but it could have been placeholder art and it's also very small.

[mint berry]

Perhaps we're getting a whole new fleet of things!

[timid crescent]

Whatever it is, my bet's on it being some sort of armour, as it animates in a way I'd expect a character model to.

There's a lot of assumptions with that though

[mint berry]

Maybe we'll see later today

[hybrid briar]

next they'll tease a leg

[sand saddle]

maybe a little ankle *whistles*

[shrewd citrus]

Ankle Biters

[shrewd citrus]

@stray wharf re: reddit

this definitely could be a super-pumpjack

[mint berry]

I think it looks like a big wooden box with a big voodoo face on it, harvesting the souls of Gleba natives.

[tardy quarry]

idea prediction: growing facility that has different growing options based on the terrain tile under it

[misty falcon]

Cool idea

Reminds me of the IR3 greenhouses

[radiant quiver]

im sure this was already discussed but since bwuhuo is renamed to gleba what do you guys think the other planets will be renamed to?

if at all

[tardy quarry]

I think theres no need to rename

[viscid ferry]

I don't think the other planets will be renamed

[timid crescent]

We pretty much have the confirmed names from the music fff

[tawny snow]

wonder how the biter dating mechanics will tie in with the rest of the factory

[viscid ferry]

Gleba has been called this for a long time but we just didn't know yet

[radiant quiver]

seems kinda wierd to have 3 new planets named after roman gods iirc but not the 4th planet

since gleba is a fungus term i think caldera sounds nice but fumarole fits the theme better

caldera: volcanic hot springs. fumaroles: volcanic gas fissues (usually SO2)

[shrewd citrus]

here's another hot take:

it's going to be both a pumpjack and a refinery all in one, allowing you to process stuff on-site.

for instance, the super pumpjack on Nauvis might have a recipe to output light oil straight away

with the funky logistical challenge of having to build around the well positions

[radiant quiver]

thats so pointless, the whole idea of factorio is that you have to design stuff. And solutions are not just given to you for free

[tawny snow]

oil being infinite somewhat diminishes the value of a pumpjack mk2

[tardy quarry]

what if they're not

[errant crest]

you still gonna need to tap less oil fields to supply base, so pumpjack mk2 still sounds like a good deal

[shrewd citrus]

oil is infinite but oil output* is not

or rather, harder to scale

[radiant quiver]

i think pumpjack mk2 makes sense cuz we have mk2 of most machines that handle items now

following this logic we get upgraded labs on aquilo

[tawny snow]

quality beacons + mining productivity + quality speed3 modules + productivity in your base reducing demand by a substantial amount can probably make 3-4 patches all that you ever need (and since it is all fluid based, new better recipes are not off the table too)

oh and plastic gets a productivity research too

[radiant quiver]

when was this confirmed?

[tawny snow]

on reddit, I believe? let me see if I can find it

https://www.reddit.com/r/factorio/comments/16ja44x/comment/k0oof2s/?utm_source=share&utm_medium=web3x&utm_name=web3xcss&utm_term=1&utm_content=share_button

[radiant quiver]

oh here

"We chose several important/influental recipes. There are things like steel (Something you can do before you go to space), blue chips, plastic, low density structure and few other things. But these things can change easily, so the list might change on a whim."

-kovarex

[tawny snow]

presumably, rocket fuel also gets a productivity research, the other two rocket parts get one, we may find out today even

[radiant quiver]

today is probably gleba pt2

perhaps blue chips will get prod research cuz its the new RCU

[tawny snow]

they do, i think that was the case even before the rcu removal

[serene sage]

on the other hand, rocket fuel is the least expensive rocket component by a significant margin, so it needs prod research the least

[tawny snow]

on nauvis, but for example can have a harder time

[serene sage]

it'd be nice for symmetry though

[tawny snow]

to a lesser extent

[serene sage]

is 20 , which is free on . you just need 10 , which just costs 10 water

I haven't run the math on , but I'm willing to bet that and are still significantly more expensive

[tawny snow]

would have to know the ice to water conversion to make a better asessment, and how much steam support do you actually need on fulgora can make a difference too

[serene sage]

using (advanced) coal liquefaction, it takes 16 coal for the 110 light oil needed (assuming heavy oil cracking), which is about half the raw ore cost of a low density structure

as you said, we don't know how much water costs, but I don't think it'll be enough to make up the difference

[tawny snow]

definetly not the most urgent prod research, but would be nice to have, maybe even have a general "fuel prod research" that encompasses platform fuel as well?

[serene sage]

that'd be neat. I wonder if there are combo prod researches like that.

[tawny snow]

damage already does this so it's not unprecedented

[misty falcon]

IR3 forestries but better!

[dreamy eagle]

Indeed 😄

[misty falcon]

I never expected timed items

[hot pelican]

Are spoilables the feature more controversial than quality?

[tawny snow]

this opens up to the possibility of things like radioactive decays for mods (or even certain blue stuff)

[tawny snow]

for me, yes

[misty falcon]

"2 hours to several minutes" is wild

[tawny snow]

I imagine research per pack won't depend on freshness

as long as the pack arrives

otherwise rip spm calculations

[misty falcon]

is planet confirmed

(not really confirmed, but it pushes us there)

[hot pelican]

Spoilable gleba research packs would be insane lol

[timid crescent]

I imagine the science pack is on the 2 hour side

They are spoilable

[timid crescent]

https://cdn.factorio.com/assets/blog-sync/fff-414-spoiled-inheritance.mp4

[tawny snow]

good reason to invest in even if stacking would be better for throughtput

[timid crescent]

Direct insertion

[hot pelican]

Oof hadn't read that far yet xD

[tropic basin]

how will we take care of spoilage with DI?

[timid crescent]

it's faster than belting

[tropic basin]

yes, but when our factory stops for a bit, stuff's gonna spoil

[timid crescent]

less buffer as well

that's a good point, can stuff spoil in an output slot?

[tropic basin]

so we end up with spoilage in our crafting machines?

[misty falcon]

Wube really went out of their way to reduce buffers

[tropic basin]

Quick, invest in sushi belt stocks now.

[viscid ferry]

A very cool mechanic! Does this mean that it will be most efficient to put the science hub on Gleba? So you won't have to send the Gleba science on space platforms

[misty falcon]

Sushi gets stale on the belt

[tawny snow]

maybe a bit too separated from the rest of the fctory for my taste (i'm assuming trees are exclusive to gleba)

[misty falcon]

Or in space

[timid crescent]

hmmm, does spoilage pose any issues solved by interrupt-in-interrupt?

[viscid ferry]

It definitely changes the buffer argument

[timid crescent]

Still not sure why you'd need multiple stops on an interrupt though

[tawny snow]

if contents are spoiled leave the station immediately maybe?

[timid crescent]

That would be handled by a stop condition, not an interrupt

[errant crest]

looks like it depend

 On the other hand, the new Agricultural science packs do spoil which reduces their value for research, so you will be incentivized to try to bring home the freshest science packs you can. 

[timid crescent]

if (none of what I'm dropping off) then leave

[errant crest]

not for me - it just looks like a really fun barely controversial mechanic

[tawny snow]

spoilage is going to drive me mad why does wube do this to me

[shrewd citrus]

to drive you mad

[viscid ferry]

Spoilage will change logistics in a super interesting way i think. It will also drive us to think of other solutions that do not involve buffering

[errant crest]

for me, this one is more interesting than ores from lava, and at least at the same level of fun to fulgora's reversed crafting tree (if not higher)

[viscid ferry]

i guess the small ore patches are reserves because trees take time to grow and spoilables could deplete the factory if it stops

[viscid ferry]

Yes, it changes the way we think about the crafting tree, like Fulgora does too. Honestly Vulcanus while cool does not drastically change anything in that manner

[shrewd citrus]

what if stacking spoiled items automatically takes the most spoiled item as baseline (one bad apple spoils the bunch)

so you can store them in chests more easily

[timid crescent]

That would not make it easier to store them in chests

quite the opposite, in fact

[viscid ferry]

The fff says that inserters can choose from different spoilage values in containers, so that wouldn't really work

Unless it takes one value per stack

[tawny snow]

trees don't seem to consume anything other than seeds, and agri does not seem to consume anything other than plant stuff. Is agricultural science basically free?

we don't see that green ball being produced anywhere but seems to be plant based as well

[timid crescent]

It's transient so there's no point in stockpiling it though

[viscid ferry]

Resources running out is more a problem after it is harvested i guess

[timid crescent]

You can't just scale it up infinitely and expect it to do anything, most of the product will just spoil as you have nothing to use it with

[shrewd citrus]

you do need to ship the science

so it has to spend time in containers

[tawny snow]

and the moment you decide to research something else, you've got to deal with spoilage on belts too

[timid crescent]

Not if you do the research on Gleba

[tardy quarry]

I'd imagine u unlock rocket turrets and better speed/eff modules here to enable faster space platform deliveries

[timid crescent]

And yeah, of course you need to transport it, but it's not like you can just store 20k of it and use it later

Optimally the time between harvesting fruit and researching the science pack is as short as possible

[dreamy eagle]

Can we speculate on space platform transit times? If Gleba products are going to spoil in max 2 hours and they have to be transported. Not necessarily the 2 hour ones, might be shorter ones as well.

[tawny snow]

fff-415: introducing fridge modules

makes sense now that gleba got direct routes to other planets

[tardy quarry]

what if labs only work on Nauvis? Will this be a controversy

[timid crescent]

I highly doubt you'll be transporting anything spoilable from Gleba except the science pack

[viscid ferry]

If we can also use the biolab on Nauvis, maybe we need to ship unspoilable ingredients and craft the science pack on Nauvis instead?

[timid crescent]

It'll probably be a planet exclusive recipe like Metallurgic science

[tardy quarry]

#friday-facts message
I wonder how can they disallow it

unless they force the labs only work on Nauvis

[viscid ferry]

That part is very interesting, maybe every planet has something we can farm?

[tardy quarry]

not necessearily farming

could be hot metal

[tawny snow]

vulcanus trees immediately combust

[tardy quarry]

or ice that melts

[timid crescent]

Ice melting could be interesting

[tawny snow]

maybe you terraform aquilo and need to send biological stuff

[timid crescent]

Now I'm wondering what spoilable ingredients they could possible be talking about

[tardy quarry]

but I think we will have more timed items that need to be shipped by space platforms, because on the planet we can just do direct insertion designs

[errant crest]

the more I think about spoilage - the more I like it
delivery speed was basically never a big concern before it, but now - just increasing throughput not gonna cut it anymore, both parameters must be considered
so, basically, picking right logistic mode might become quite a bit more complex on

[viscid ferry]

In vanilla you can mostly just overproduce, buffer and forget, now you can't really do that

[tawny snow]

I imagine bots at high speeds will be very beneficial for spoilable items

[viscid ferry]

Also think about the effect of pollution on the farms

[tardy quarry]

at least u can still do that if all u want is spoilage

[timid crescent]

Yeah my immediate thought was that optimal post endgame would be to just use bots to near-instantly transport everything

outside of direct insertion

[errant crest]

high speed low capacity trains with super fast loading/unloading stations might work quite well and outspeed bots

[late sentinel]

nah

[timid crescent]

For a time, yeah. But bot speed is infinite in the post endgame

[tardy quarry]

this is so interesting. With the spoilage mechanics, the production lead time finally matters

[late sentinel]

just build closer

[errant crest]

some stuff in train will be less fresh than other, but i'm not convinced it's a big problem - use it in recipes that don't care so much about it

[tawny snow]

seems like you can plant trees almost anywhere, there's no need to use trains for that

[timid crescent]

building a super compact base would actually matter at producing a better product as well

[errant crest]

maybe we gonna need a huge planting area and several different biomes, so distance will be significant anyway

[tawny snow]

🍎 for canned fruit that lasts longer

[viscid ferry]

Also maybe a way to evenly farm the trees so you have a steady output

[tawny snow]

you can achieve near instant many-to-one transportation with rockets and a landing pad if you are feeling fancy

[errant crest]

oh, and different spoiling time will basically decide, if some stuff will be processed asap, or is it better to deliver it closer to where it's needed and process there

[tawny snow]

making spoilables seem like is going to be hard (if looping, that is)

if fish really spoils quality spiders will be funny to aquire

[misty falcon]

[sand saddle]

legendary mold

[tawny snow]

it took less time to make the spoilage emote than the gleba one

[tardy quarry]

I guess it means its not even used for rocket fuel and doesn't have 50% prod

[timid crescent]

To be fair a lot of people (myself included) came to the conclusion that +50% prod on oil products just wouldn't feel very impactful

[serene sage]

post-endgame, bot speed is limited by recharge rate

[tawny snow]

would have been nice on cracking, a couple of steps there

[timid crescent]

it's infinite when bounded by it's maximum travel distance per charge, which is very far with 2.5x capacity

Legendary roboports also charge faster

[tawny snow]

ig the biochamber can have +50% prod, but if all of its recipes are exclusive to that machine then it is inconsequential

[tardy quarry]

I just realised direct insertion won't always work for timed items if the item/recipe speed ratio in the chain is large

[timid crescent]

It would just nerf prod modules in that machine if it included innate prod

[serene sage]

looking at the rate they output agri sci, it's too consistent to have innate prod

[tawny snow]

science recipe produces x1 pack per craft, perhaps all new packs are like that?

[serene sage]

you'd expect irregularities from the bonus products if they existed

[tawny snow]

yeah, it is very consistent, good catch

[serene sage]

(or they're too rare to show up in this clip, which I find unlikely)

[tawny snow]

we stil don't know how do we get

[tardy quarry]

wat

[tawny snow]

we have not seen oil on gleba yet have we?

nor coal I believe

[tardy quarry]

the biochamber basically replace all the oil processing

also this, combined with previous speculation that carbon fiber is used for eff3 module

[tawny snow]

fruit powered trains and rockets lol

[tardy quarry]

spoilage has fuel value iirc

as u can burn them in boilers

[tawny snow]

I imagine it also has terrible acceleration

[leaden socket]

So Factorio now allows things happen passively to items in storage?

I think mods might apply this mechanism to nuclear-related items

[tawny snow]

anytime

maybe even SA applies this to nuclear-related items

cough cough bluranium

[dreamy eagle]

Mods can go wild with this

[leaden socket]

Maybe fusion mods can have tritium spoil

Tritium will spoil into helium-3

[tawny snow]

come mods could even do cyclical spoils

[leaden socket]

Makes sense

What will happen if A spoils into B, and A has a stack size of 200, but B only 50?

Will it split into 4 stacks, or destroy 150 items, or crash the game?

Or just let 200 B item sit in a stack just like in an assembler input?

What if an item in a filtered slot spoils?

I can already feel the coding hell

[tawny snow]

#friday-facts message

pretty important

[leaden socket]

I think some mods can make spoilable items that take 1 million years to spoil, and use that spoil value for something else

https://mods.factorio.com/mod/smr

[weary widget]

Gleba 3 FFF next week I guess

Gleba 2 FFF was less clear on what the planet "does" and how it fits in with the rest of your factories vs Vulcanus 2 FFF and Fulgora 2 FFF

[dreamy eagle]

They did say a week ago that the pink part of Gleba is still work in progress. It may very well be the overall "what it does" can't be shown without it

[tawny snow]

they probably wanted to get spoilage out there, seems like the only reason they'd "need" to show gleba even if unfinished

[tardy quarry]

well then they might start showing more Vulcanus stuff if they're spoilage related

[tawny snow]

I imagine there won't be that much "filler" left for the fffs, unless aquilo is on a similar state

btw, with the third pack revealed, what could aquilo's be?

[weary widget]

at least in my head I'm seeing it like a tier 2 of

[tawny snow]

from the vulcanus fff:

I wanted the ashlands to look like a spectral burnt forest with dark leafless shapes looming over you. The 'trees' if that is even the right word for them, are alive but we didn't want them to look leafy or anything like actual healthy trees. Presumably they get most of their energy by breaking down chemicals instead of photosynthesis, or perhaps they exploit the temperature gradient between the bottom and the top of the ash. From that point of view they are maybe more of an endolith fungus, but they have trunk-like shapes and have a tree-like role, so for now we call them trees.
flora is a strange thing to remark on the fire planet don't you think?

[tropic basin]

Now that we have item decay, I hope molten metal won't decay into solid metal.
Don't think there's enough stack size bonus that inserters can pick up 25k iron at once.

[errant crest]

hm... buffering might be quite decent, considering how free the production of it probably is - just turn it into nutrients later, when demand spike. or just burn in a backup power plant

[tardy quarry]

u can probably use the half spoiled nutrients to fuel the biochambers

not sure if this will affect the freshness of the products

[weary widget]

thats the silver lining of this all, if resources there are truly infinite

[tawny snow]

recipes inherit freshness from their ingredients

[errant crest]

there are some items where their freshness doesn't contribute to the final product as the final product is something that isn't spoilable

[weary widget]

we shall see if the new science is one of them nevermind they spoil

[tawny snow]

seems the only input trees need is their own seeds

[misty falcon]

OK so K-man said it was the controversial thing

[weary widget]

thats how it appears

[errant crest]

just gonna make sure to focus on stuff that doesn't care about freshness, and gleba challenge might be (partially and inefficiently) bypassed

[errant crest]

quite unexpected. I was hoping for something MUCH more wild

[weary widget]

I don't believe him

devs called us crazy for thinking is getting announced the week it did lol

[young breach]

it's pretty wild, I also would have expected more of a (negative) reaction from the community

but most people just seem to think it is a interesting challenge

personally not a big fan of the timed science packs, but I have hope it will all work out in the end

[errant crest]

spoilage mostly planet limited, while quality (can) affect each and every item in the game (and judging by the amount of questions - it was not immediately obvious that using is necessary to get into quality)
spoilage will just work with something as simple as one splitter (instead of like 4 for quality) into recycler loop, buffering stuff is really the only thing that took an actual hit in terms of efficiency
oh, and no ||insert the name of the pay to win game here|| flair to spoilage, and no controversial names

[tardy quarry]

spoilage can potentially affect any item, not necessarily only on Gleba

[errant crest]

true, but there's probably not gonna be a lot of spoilable item outside of Gleba
and if I'm wrong on that - well, that will be pleasant, slightly controversial, surprise

[young breach]

yeah mainly because they said there are planet specific recipes on the other planets

[misty falcon]

Ice melting?

[young breach]

"There are some items and recipes with spoilable ingredients which need to be crafted on different planets,"

[young breach]

this is from the fff

[young breach]

I don't think ice will melt, because it can't turn into a water item or something

[misty falcon]

It can disappear

[young breach]

but they said they added spoilage so the items won't just dissappear when spoiled

so it would be weird if that was then not a problem for other items

[timid crescent]

well ice would turn into water, which would just disappear

[tropic basin]

decays into a water barrel

[timid crescent]

so it makes sense there

[young breach]

When we were considering the idea of timed life for items, one of the first questions was whether they should just disappear or turn into something. If they just disappeared it would be more convenient as you wouldn't need to worry about the piles of spoilage you're inevitably going to accumulate, but you wouldn't know that something had spoiled as there would be no traces of it.

they said here they don't want items do dissappear

[tropic basin]

Do items decay into ?

[misty falcon]

Probably

[tropic basin]

I wouldn't be surprised if quality would slow down spoilage. Yes, it's inevitable and can't be delayed, but the FFF goes on about different items having different spoil times.
The same item with different qualities counts as different items. So .. technically it's still possible.

[misty falcon]

Reason to make bio science?

[tropic basin]

It would be a strong incentive to use quality modules as soon as possible (and everywhere). That's an argument against it, Wube doesn't like to have only a single optimal design.

[errant crest]

considering how much plant stuff is free on Gleba and how (probably) it will be easy to stamp down a lot of plant builds - i expect Gleba to be incredible place to make some and other oil heavy products

[weary widget]

considering its all free, could be a fantastic place to quality loop to get or better rockets for personal use

[tropic basin]

I'm thinking about exporting the gross landfill to other planets so we can use the biochamber everwhere, but it feels like they're not the part of Gleba that's supposed to be used off-planet.

Foundries and EMPs are supposed to be exported to other planets. And they're physically bigger.
I predict another building. Biochambers are Glebas lightning collectors.

[timid crescent]

I know, but if ice were to melt, it would make more sense for it to just disappear. Ice specifically.

Other stuff just disappearing wouldn't make sense

[young breach]

oh yeah true

but I think they are more looking at it from a gameplay perspective, so that it's still intuitive to play

[shrewd citrus]

it's a ruse, the tree planter is the main building for export

[tardy quarry]

chemplant mk2

[honest summit]

Yeah the biochamber doesn't look anything like the Christmas card building

(Obviously art can change)

[misty falcon]

It's not that one..

It is the middle building in 5 building leak

[tawny snow]

It does #friday-facts message

[weary widget]

interesting... prod research not requiring science?

[misty falcon]

Yea I don't understand either

[crimson bough]

You feed steel into labs and it gives you steel prod research

Maybe i'm lying

[weary widget]

if its not sci, thats the next most reasonable way IMO

could be global production stats too, but that would be strange to unlock an extra 10% every now and then as an achievement because you made 2 million steel for instance

[red crow]

Completely without science sounds strange