#how would you make builds that are UPS
vocal flint
damn hahaha
viral totem
first are you having UPS problems?
vocal flint
nah, I'm wondering because I am now doing a save to majority of factorio achievements like 5k processing units per hour and it seems to me that you would need a pretty big base to be able to do that. Coming with that would be possible ups problems i think
I'm still pretty new to factorio
viral totem
alright well, I can warn you about a few pitfalls...
vocal flint
this save will be my first where i will try to do a megabase
I am currently doing normal setting world while doing lazy bastard, no requester and active provider chest and steam all the way lol
viral totem
what are your SPM goals and hardware?
vocal flint
I know biters can cause UPS issues
vocal flint
what are your SPM goals and hardware?
hmm, I'll start with 1k spm and look how much further i can reach
I have a 11th gen i7-11800H
16 gigs of DDR4 ram
RTX 3060 laptop version
But I have no idea how to do UPS optimization at all and when UPS would start struggling
rain onyx
some things are heavier on UPS
vocal flint
are trains UPS heavy?
rain onyx
no
especially given the alternative is giant belts, which will be UPS heavy
also belts cost more to calculate when they have gaps
vocal flint
I know belts are UPS optimized IF they are full belts
rain onyx
dense belts do not have much cost
trains should not be that bad, given their alternatives
you literally need trains to build big
vocal flint
I see
rain onyx
and trying to use other things to build big will fuck you up
like a big conveyor or bot network will be a problem
quasi flame
do beacons do lag?
slim bridge
you literally need trains to build big
The biggest most ups efficient megabases have zero trains. 
vocal flint
do beacons do lag?
I would think beacons would help save UPS in the long run no? less machines needed to produce the same amount of items
rain onyx
The biggest most ups efficient megabases have zero trains. <:trianglepupper:3224...
every giant megabase I’ve seen is some sort of city block
slim bridge
Those are small ones
rain onyx
but you would want to probably avoid trains if you are going for WR size
slim bridge
Haha
vocal flint
what is WR rn?
rain onyx
1 million science per minute
vocal flint
damn
rain onyx
run using a cluster of computers
as far as trains go, i would not worry about trains until you get super deep in
vocal flint
how would that work? Different chunks of maps running on different computers?
rain onyx
idfk. it’s called clusterio
vocal flint
damn, that's interesting. I'll look into it lol
slim bridge
Idk if clusterio really counts tbh since you’re getting around normal ups limits by just teleporting goods into / out of a smaller simulated world
I guess it can count idk
I’d think of it as different category tho, most people aren’t gonna have those resources available
vocal flint
true
rain onyx
in general, if you have UPS problems, I would go down this list:
- check debug mode to see if one particular thing is fucking up
- check mods
- check bots
- check beacons (or lack thereof),
- check belts/inserters
- check trains
vocal flint
alright
rain onyx
i feel like that is fair
slim bridge
This is a pic of fallen ghosts base , which to my understanding is the most ups efficient base made. As an idea for ya
rain onyx
mods can be the first cause because you just need one shittily optimized mod to bring your computer to its knees
and factorio devs are good at optimizing
iirc, belts were mostly a problem for Dosh’s sushi megabase. Becuase the whole base was like 30 express belts going in a gigantic mega loop, where the sushi belt needs a lot of empty space to function
so the whole thing had a ton of voids/vacancies
the other time he hit UPS issues was with a logistic vehicle mod, and again with renai transportation
because his logistic vehicles would need to actually pathfind via physics
and renai transportation offers thrower inserters, which are far less efficient than the hyper optimized vanilla inserters
vocal flint
damn
viral totem
oh man I alt-tabbed due to a work meeting
viral totem
hmm, I'll start with 1k spm and look how much further i can reach
you should not expect trouble getting to 1k SPM
slim bridge
5k processing units per hour is small base btw
That’s only 1.38 blue chip per second
A few speed 3 / prod 3 machines
viral totem
I missed my chance to get in on the ground floor but there are a couple things I want to say up front
- don't believe what anyone tells you on the internet, including me. learn
factorio --benchmarkand test it for yourself. there is TONS of misinformation out there
vocal flint
That’s only 1.38 blue chip per second
my last save had 1 blue circuit every 3 seconds and i just waited for the rocket for a looooong time
maybe it was longer
rain onyx
press F4 for debug menu, and show the update time for a breakdown of how the game is spending its computational time
viral totem
1. don't believe what anyone tells you on the internet, including me. learn `fac...
@vocal flint this is critical to grok
vocal flint
wait is that a command in factorio?
viral totem
debug menu is not good for benchmarking UPS
you must use factorio --benchmark because that will show performance over time
rain onyx
debug menu is good for seeing if there is one thing as of right this second causing lag
debug menu does not show historical data or avg data over time
as he says, it is a single point in time
vocal flint
oh right
rain onyx
you should use both tools
viral totem
yeah, and really try to internalize the fact that if you ask about UPS optimization you will get a mixture of truth and myth
factorio --benchmark is the only thing that always tells the truth 🙂
the best way to do experiments with small designs is to find Region Cloner mod, clone the design a thousand times in a sandbox save, and then compare benchmarks on one design vs another
rain onyx
that is how you do a little study for the most part
debug menu display just quickly tells you how the game is spending CPU time right now
viral totem
yes, I don't think that's useful because it does not find things that hit UPS intermittently (which is common) because your eyes and consciousness don't update as fast as the screen
--benchmark also has extended options that give you a granular breakdown every tick
but the breakdown isn't always useful since millions of things get collapsed into "entity update" anyway
usually debug can tell you quickly what is most wrong with a base that was built without much awareness of these issues
it's not good for refinement of good designs
let's say that?
rain onyx
and all of this is shit you should not worry about until you can/do build a base big enough for UPS to matter
the only 2 things that will fuck with UPS when you don’t have a gigantic base are bot spam and poorly optimized mods
realistically
once you get to a gigantic base, that is the only point where it starts mattering
viral totem
all that depends on your hardware
rain onyx
dosh’s sushi megabase only had issues when he got to 30 belts in a gigantic loop, with voids which are known to be the bad thing anout belts. And he only built that base AFTER space science
viral totem
sushi cannot be built in a UPS optimized way because you will have lots of inserters swinging with 1 item, outserters waiting for gaps in the belt etc
slim bridge
What if you made 12 item chunks 
rain onyx
my point is he won the game (send first rocket) before he had any issues at all, even with the worst possible design
the only thing that would be worse would be bot spam, or slow mods
slim bridge
When people ask about ups these days, I’m often so afraid of spreading myth that sometimes, all I say is this:
A perfect inserter swing is 12 items from one production machine into another production machine
And that feels like something I can be confident about xD
rain onyx
my general response is “don’t worry if it isn’t a problem”
most people will never get to the point where UPS is a problem until they get very far, are doing something very dumb, or have a very slow mod
i feel like that is fair
viral totem
tbh I agree
that was going to be my second warning after #1 (don't trust anything except factorio --benchmark)
rain onyx
the only thing in vanilla that would realistically hit your UPS horrendously when you are new enough to fully understand: replacing everything with bots for logistics
viral totem
@vocal flint
2. Don't worry about UPS until you have UPS problems. But also be aware that if you hit the UPS ceiling, in order to push past it, all your designs up to that point will end up in the dumpster. But that's fine 🙂 most people with good gaming rigs never hit the ceiling, and those that do, can start a new save
rain onyx
at least I think that is the only way for a newer player to destroy their UPS before their first win
viral totem
having a potato PC is an option you are persistently excluding 😄
but OP does not have a potato
slim bridge
There is also having lots of biters in your pollution cloud
That’s a good way to speedrun <60 ups lol
viral totem
When people ask about ups these days, I’m often so afraid of spreading myth that...
the goal is to have all inserters be sleeping, and failing that, if an inserter is awake then it should be moving a full stack
"waiting for gaps in the belt" is not moving a full stack
minimizing inserter activity is the over-arching objective:
first you kill all buffer chests at train stations because that doubles the inserter activity required to load the train
then you realize that you can just make the belt longer and get rid of the trains entirely
then you realize that you can make the furnace fast enough to directly insert the plates into the assembler while maintaining backpressure (so that the inserter always has 12 to move whenever it wakes up) and you can kill the belt too
etc
from the technical-factorio discord:
😄
I'd add "delete all red belts" too
green and white inserters only, blue belts only
🙇🏻♂️ bow to Dave
slim bridge
You could have a lot of ‘delete all ____’ lol
Radar, roboport, biter bases
Steam engines and turbines
vocal flint
<@137649864765865984>
2. Don't worry about UPS until you have UPS problems. But...
and if you have bots, It doesnt take THAT long to remake designs i would think
viral totem
it's more about psychological attachment to them I think
for most folks it's better to start a new save than tear down their entire base they've been nurturing from infancy
vocal flint
I'll read the whole chat later cause I am currently doing a final push to make a rocket and get these achievements. after i have these achievements I will make preparations to make my first megabase
vocal flint
for most folks it's better to start a new save than tear down their entire base ...
true
viral totem
I'll read the whole chat later cause I am currently doing a final push to make a...
really the biggest takeaways are
- you don't have to worry about this until you are at ~>5k SPM (depending on your hardware)
- don't trust what anyone tells you about what is UPS optimized or isn't, including me, without testing it yourself
vocal flint
alright
I'm currently making yellow and purple science 
17 hours in. which is the fastest I've done it up until now. I usually play pretty slowly because i am always chilling and making things at my own pace. If i try to be quick the entire time, i get burnt out
viral totem
yeah, good, that's fine
you are a looooong way away from where you have to concern yourself from UPS, go at your own pace, you have a lot to learn. enjoy yourself
🙂
viral totem
❤️ anytime
vocal flint
I somehow ended up with 1 underground 
rain onyx
if you want the highest possible UPS then delete all belts, inserters, buildings, trains, and bots. Then don’t explore anything.