#Ratio problem Fulgora

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

candid lagoon
#

The ratio problem only exists when you mix quality levels together throughout a production chain. If all you do is take the quality_uncommon stuff you skimmed from the recyclers, you have exactly the same production steps/ratios as if you had started with quality_normal stuff instead.

trim sinew
#

I look forward to coming back to a novel tomorrow morning

atomic token
#

the ratio is 100:130:30 for t3 module

#

scrap ratio is 0:3:2

candid lagoon
#

Yes, and that applies even if you don't have quality ratios involved.

atomic token
#

it's not clean to start with

#

you're not gonna get away with recyclign all blue chips or all red chips to get the greens

#

you're gonna need to do a little of both

#

red chips and blue chips have different numbers of greens in them

candid lagoon
#

Yes, that's the challenge that fulgora presents, and has nothing to do with quality

atomic token
#

so even if the ratio coming out of scrap is the same, the ratio of green chips with quality will be different depending on whether it's coming out of red or blue chips

candid lagoon
#

using circuit controlled isnerters on a small scales seems reasonable for getting semi-optimal results. On a large scale you could be using train stop priorities and various recycling plants

#

Not if you don't involve quality beyond the first step, the initial mining/recycling

#

It would give you (at least initially, I'm talking for early-mid Fulgora) a steady baseline of quality_uncommon quality stuff for you to recycle, filter, and ratio math out into a hub/mall, and a small amount of quality_rare stuff you can manually use for personal equipment, specialty items, or topping up quality_rare recycle loops in the hub.

#

The majority of the other, quality_normalstuff will flow into normal science production, and your regular expansion hub

atomic token
#

90 uncommon blue chips + 10 rare blue chips (we haven't unlocked epic yet)
recycled that's 450 uncommon green chips and 50 rare green chips, but wait we have an extra 45 uncommon reds and 5 rare reds now

#

alongside those blue chips came 130 uncommon reds and 20 rare reds

#

so now we have 450 uncommon greens, 50 rare greens, 175 uncommon reds, and 25 rare reds

#

notably, the rare red ratio isn't the same as what came out of the scrap recycling

#

and we're still not at the module ratio

#

like this gets really complicated really fast but surely you see my point right

#

b/c it's a backwards chain where our ingredients are becoming our other ingredients, the ratios are not preserved

#

like they would be in a forward chain

candid lagoon
#

Yes, that's fulgora 's entire gimmick

atomic token
#

okay so we agree then that the ratio problem is bad for forward chains and really, really bad for backward chains

candid lagoon
#

Which is why I don't advocate for mixing quality throughout a production chain, you need to either start with (the same level) quality ingredients or end with recycling loops to keep things manageable

atomic token
#

and that exact logic is what I'm using to say don't do it on fulgora because the ratio problem presents itself even if you only do quality in miners and scrap

candid lagoon
#

I'm sorry but what you're arguing is that you just shouldn't do anything on fulgora because it involves having to balance ingredients using recyclers, which seems a little strange because that's the challenge you need to tackle there.

atomic token
#

a) yeah exactly it's gonna be enough of a problem without quality in the mix
b) it's dubious whether quality gets you any benefit at all vs just recycle looping at the end. if any, it's marginal

candid lagoon
#

So long as you don't try to balance between quality levels, you keep things as manageable as possible. You'd run into all these issues even if you started with quality_normal as a baseline

atomic token
#

and then c) just from a game strategy perspective this is gonna take a lot of time and resources to set up and it's likely that time and resources will be better spent doing anything else

noble prairie
#

If you can set up science on Fulgora before leaving, or anything else that requires a consistent resource drain, you can keep it running while you're off on other planets and siphon off the ~4% of quality items produced in order to make personal equipment and such

candid lagoon
#

It will, and at that point you need to decide if you'd find it fun to solve the problem or not. Personally Fulgora seems quite appealing to me for a number of reasons, so I won't mind spending more time there

atomic token
#

the thing to think about is that fulgora is very geometrically hostile and you will need to do a lot of scrap recycling just for the basics

#

adding the cost of extra modules to all your recyclers and needing to take up a whole bunch of extra islands which need to be connected to trains to have this separate quality section with 800 combinators

#

just does not seem practical to me

noble prairie
#

T1 modules are really cheap though

candid lagoon
#

Exaggerating on 3 fronts doesn't make the point any different

#

Low tier modules are pretty cheap, I don't know why it would take up more than maybe an island of space, you don't exactly need 800 combinators to balance oil products so I don't know why you'd need that for recyclers either

noble prairie
#

From a yellow belt of scrap, you get the resources to make a T1 module in 7 seconds

atomic token
#

that's a whole yellow belt of scrap

noble prairie
#

You're not consuming all of it for that one module though. You're consuming the red and some of the blue circuits

#

Actually it's somewhat lower because recycling the blue circuits gives some reds

#

Fulgora is going to be hell on math

candid lagoon
#

Hence why you don't math it out, instead you just set thresholds for recycling excess stuff

atomic token
#

idk about you but it does not look to me like it will be trivial to get a whole yellow belt of scrap from somethign like this

noble prairie
#

Yeah but I'm trying to find statistics

candid lagoon
#

Yeah if you want to figure it all out optimally it would be pretty hard, expecially considering we don't know all the recipes on fulgora yet shoob

noble prairie
#

Actually, wait, you get quality modules on Nauvis. Just make T1 modules there

candid lagoon
#

Now we're thinking with modules

noble prairie
#

Or, ship the circuits, since the EMP gives 50% prod

#

(talking about when you first get into space)

candid lagoon
#

or, ship the EMP's back to make T2 modules, then make T3's on fulgora

noble prairie
#

Making a rocket will be pretty darn easy on Fulgora...

#

You get 2/3 ingredients directly and the third isn't all that hard either

noble prairie
atomic token
#

if you don't put quality modules in the post-scrap recyclers and keep each quality separated it works out fine, it'll be the same as doing it in all common

#

I was mostly assuming that quality modules were going in the other recyclers too

candid lagoon
#

It's almost certainly a waste to try to balance qualities in-between intermediates, you're probably just going to give yourself a headache and waste a bunch of time

atomic token
#

but that's still separate infra for each quality

candid lagoon
#

For (potentially) no benefit

noble prairie
#

Bots to the rescue

candid lagoon
#

It would be, but each quality would need 10% the infrastructure of the last, so it's not massive

atomic token
#

recyclers are likely to be an expensive building, throwing quality modules in them increases that cost even more (not only b/c of the module cost, but also needing to build 25% more recyclers for the same output)

#

technically slightly more than 25% if you're siphoning off non-normal

#

and the bulk of stuff that isn't chips coming out of scrap doesn't have a whole lot of reason to have quality on it

noble prairie
#

But would it be a 20% speed penalty with T1 modules?

atomic token
#

20% speed penalty = 25% more buildings for same output

candid lagoon
#

yeah so you need 5/4 as many to keep up

noble prairie
#

Right, but modules have higher penalties with higher tiers. The T3 module has the 5% penalty. But a T1 module probably only has like 2%

atomic token
#

90% sure it's confirmed to be 5% across all tiers

atomic token
noble prairie
#

Recyclers can't be that expensive, since you need to hand make them

#

By recycling scrap yourself

atomic token
#

you can hand craft a reactor

candid lagoon
#

ofc, you don't want to unnecessarily expand upwards when you get far more benefit from expanding outwards

noble prairie
#

The recycler is the equivalent of a furnace. The intended gameplay is you land, mine some buildings for scrap, turn that into the 12 items you get from scrap, which you make into a recycler in order to start automating

atomic token
noble prairie
#

It can't be that expensive or it would take forever to get actually started on fulgora

atomic token
#

it only saves you resources when the consumption of your quality module section has perfect parity with the rest of your factory, otherwise you're voiding a bunch of stuff for more modules

noble prairie
atomic token
#

if you just recycle loop at the end and forego quality in drills/scrap recyclers, it's much easier to control how much goes toward modules vs the rest of the factory

noble prairie
#

Expanding recyclers by 25% and taking a ~4% hit to ores in order to get a trickle of quality ingredients seems totally worth it to me, if you can have some resource sink that ensures resources are always coming in and doing something productive.

noble prairie
atomic token
#

I'm not so sure about that at this point

atomic token
candid lagoon
#

I don't know why you would be "voiding a bunch of stuff for more modules" though? just stop making them when you stop making science?

noble prairie
#

That doesn't track. You don't have to keep the module stuff at 100% uptime if you're just taking the 4% quality output from recyclers and not recycle looping

atomic token
#

well that also means you're hard capped on how much you can direct to modules if other production slows down for some reason

candid lagoon
#

Or, do void them to make more modules, the factory aparantly isn't doing anything with those resources anyway

noble prairie
#

If it becomes an actual issue, recycle looping is an option, but you'd probably want the beeg miners before you start doing that

atomic token
#

I'm positive that the most efficient way to solve fulgora is to have a factory that can dynamically readjust where things are going based on need

candid lagoon
#

with quality and recycling loops there basically isn't a reason to not have the factory always directing all resources somewhere, at the very least

#

Yeah, once you have the scale you can use priority train stops to auto-balance the production and consumption of products

noble prairie
#

Also, excess normal quality circuits (and whatever else) can be turned into T2 and 3 quality modules, which would boost the ratio of the quality portion of the base

#

Still no recycle looping, everything is turned into something

#

Better modules raise the ratio, more resources are quality, more green and blue quality modules, reasonably getting to 16% quality on some machines

atomic token
#

we know more about vulcanus so I'll use that as a comparison: sometimes I'll be wanting to scale up my mining on another planet, so I need vulcanus to direct its production toward beeg drills. sometimes I'll be wanting to scale up smelting, so I'll need foundries. sometimes I'll need belts, etc etc

#

it's easy to redirect production in a pure forward chain

#

quality in the production chain of fulgora kinda calcifies its chains

candid lagoon
#

It'll also be easy to redirect production on fulgora if you use priority train stops

atomic token
#

less room to redirect on a planet where the big challenge is figuring out how to redirect

candid lagoon
#

just change the priority and that thing will be made before other things

atomic token
#

when the quality section needs more or less than the rest of the factory, that creates either a bottleneck or a backup

#

like compare it to oil cracking: if you makey a big mistakey and end up only needing heavy oil and being overloaded on light and petrogas, that's a real big problem

candid lagoon
#

I imagine you wouldn't be using the 'quality section' approach at that point, you'd be approaching the point where full-stack prod mods are achievable and looping on productivity research items is more efficient

noble prairie
#

In the absolute worst case scenario where the quality section of your base backs up, somehow, just use a priority splitter to vent the overflow back to normal production

atomic token
#

plus looking at the scrap recycling recipe a substantial portion of it isn't gonna be useful with quality on it

#

so you're going to all this trouble for a percentage of a percentage

noble prairie
#

The bulk of the base should have materials flowing through it for science and whatever. That should be the primary resource consumer. You just take a bit off the top for some nice things

candid lagoon
#

All of it will be useful with quality on it, you will be turning it all into other things, the same way you would if it didn't have quality on it

noble prairie
atomic token
#

so every single product is gonna have five segregated manufacturing areas?

candid lagoon
#

no, just 1

noble prairie
#

It will most likely be a tiny bot based mall

candid lagoon
#

The idea is to get the quality items you need for a proper, complete looping setup in a way less wasteful way that looping to begin with

atomic token
#

I guess the sticking point to me is that we're writing off what I consider to be the most important resource: the player's time and attention

noble prairie
#

Also, a good portion of the stuff would be best for personal equipment. In which case you just stick it in rockets

atomic token
#

is it really gonna be more efficient to use your time to build out all this additional complexity in the middle of a supply chain that's already very complex

#

vs just doing it the simple way and doing more of that

noble prairie
#

It's off to the side

candid lagoon
#

If it's fun, yes

noble prairie
#

And if it gives cool loot

candid lagoon
#

it's not pointless either because it's, on a small scale, more efficient

#

It's similar to nuclear, is it really worth the time and attention setting up uranium mining, processing, kovarex, designing a reactor, and directing all the associated resources towards something that can be achieved by just placing more solar panels or steam engines?

#

Depends if you want to set up nuclear power or not shrug

atomic token
#

well with nuclear the answer is yes

#

and the reason the answer is yes is b/c it's obscenely efficient in every way compared to those other solutions

#

there's a very real cost in time and attention for setting it up but the payoff is massive

#

whereas quality on fulgora feels like a much bigger time and attention cost for a pretty marginal payoff

candid lagoon
#

I think you're drastically exaggerating again.
I can setup some solar panel and accumulator assemblers and stamp down another blueprint with next to no time spent from me, the player.
The setup for nuclear power takes far more time and effort to do, as you don't have existing infrastructure to use. You have to setup a new mining outpost, design and build uranium processing, an expensive reactor and if I don't want chests backing up I need design and build kovarex enrichment as well. The payoff is the same either way, my factory get powered.

atomic token
#

it takes 11,429 solar_panel to produce as much power as a 2x2 reactor

#
  • accumulators to store power overnight
#

20k buildings vs a few hundred (counting exchangers and turbines)

#

heck even counting drills and centrifuges and trains for sulfuric_acid it's not even close

candid lagoon
#

If you're making a cost argument then you're just proving the point that it's worth siphoning off quality_uncommon so you don't have to recycle through that tier at the end.

#

If it a time one, good thing I set up those 6 solar panel assemblers 6 hours ago and they've been steadily increasing my power capacity by ~70MW an hour

atomic token
#

there's also the matter of kicking biters off the territory and setting up defenses to make space for hundreds of thousands of tiles of solar panels

candid lagoon
#

I'm doing that anyway so they're not in my pollution cloud

#

Again, it all comes down to what the player finds enjoyable and what fits with their playstyle

atomic token
#

I don't think nuclear is a good comparison. the ratio of time investment to payoff is way different

candid lagoon
#

You don't know that

#

We don't have the final numbers for all the recipes on fulgora

atomic token
#

do you have early access to SA?

candid lagoon
#

No? why does that matter

atomic token
candid lagoon
#

we don't hav ethe final number for all the recipes on fulgora

candid lagoon
#

One that is also not quantitative, as it depends on what the player values they spend their time on

atomic token
#

we're both operating on assumption here

#

in perfectly equal amounts

candid lagoon
#

The only assumptions I've made are that 1) I'll probably enjoy figuring out the recycler stuff on Fulgora 2) I'll probably enjoy tinkering with quality mechanics in-depth 3) starting with a baseline quality_uncommon value items siphoned from some number of machines with quality modules will make getting higher quality items cheaper.

#

the 3rd is pretty self explanitory because you need to do less recycling at the end, which is where the losses come from

atomic token
#

that's at best a factor of ten

#

probably a lot less though

#

b/c recycle loop would allow you to consolidate highest quality modules whereas scrap would distribute a bunch of cheap ones

candid lagoon
#

Personally, I think the nuclear/solar comparison is quite in line with quality start / normal loop end comparison, more time invested for lowered cost, vs less time invested for greater cost

candid lagoon
#

Until I see the exact numbers I will continue to believe it to be worth my time to play around with it in that capacity.

atomic token
#

another big factor for me is that at least as far as we know there's very little limiting horizontal growth on fulgora

#

that could change, but it seems to me that making a logistically simple system that can easily scale up is going to be a much more efficient use of time

candid lagoon
#

Skimming some quality off the top is better when you're limited by horizontal growth, as you need to spend less resources on getting your initial quality items using this method.