#Preventing Space Age spoilers
noble niche
Kk
Someone should not be forced to risk being spoiled if they want to use the help chat or general chatrooms. This is a courtesy most places provide that this server doesn't
Pokemon rimworld stellaris and many other games have servers that have spoiler chats (wether official discords or not) for this kind of thing
Why should we say "spoilers are just a thing you risk by existing on this server" @agile bane
proper prairie
I agree with the no spoiler stuff outside #friday-facts I mean you don't have to ban anyone for it I think, but it would be helpful to steer. It can also be confusing for people asking for help for the current game and getting showered with 2.0 stuff
hearty portal
I totally respect ppl’s desire to wait until game release to see everything from scratch. So, I agree with keeping SA discussion in #friday-facts
It seems like someone is arguing in bad faith if they suggest ppl will be asking for help on an unreleased product in the other channels
agile bane
Someone should not be forced to risk being spoiled if they want to use the help ...
that is a good courtesy, if not for the fact that the opposite results in forcing everyone else into your stance, out of courtesy.
this is not a leak or spoiler coming from developers, but these are factorio news releases, published by the factorio team.
I don't see how it's right to force people not to talk about official factorio news in the official factorio server
noble niche
There is LITERALLY a chat for that
Again stellaris does the same thing you are not allowed to talk about upcoming and new release dlcs outside of topical chats
strange magnet
nobody is forcing you to not talk about the expansion, it's just spoilering spoilers
strange magnet
my initial suggestion sure, but that was quickly disagreed with and an alternative was posted
amber ingot
I think the current general consensus is that conversations about it would be moved to #friday-facts whenever possible, but if context doesn't reasonably allow for it it would be spoilered instead
agile bane
I agree with this, besides preventing people from discussing it conventionally
strange magnet
it's really not that hard to spoiler things
noble niche
Nobody ever said we can never discuss it
strange magnet
like ||woah|| holy shit
noble niche
You are just making a stawman
||this was added for a reason||
I am saying spoiler in other channels and try to keep it in topical channels IE #friday-facts
strange magnet
#vanilla-chat is not a free reign anything goes channel, it's for general discussion, and one could make the argument that space age isn't general discussion, similar to how #modded-chat exists
factorio mods are one of the largest parts of factorio, why is it encouraged to use a specific channel for it? because it's a nice way of keeping conversations organized for everyone involved
proper prairie
(how about the can of worms about when 2.0 hits, will all discussions be consolidated to current channels or would there be separate channels for 2.0/SA stuff?)
strange magnet
we'll probably be making another channel for space age
noble niche
I think what stellaris does would be preferable
Space exploration dlc chat would be nice
strange magnet
2.0 is just vanilla, that would still be #vanilla-chat
proper prairie
I mean like #train-help and #blueprint-designing
strange magnet
I don't think duplicating every channel for space age and vanilla is a good idea
#train-help is easy, that just stays as is because it's an ask question and get answer channel, who cares if they have ||elevated rails||
#blueprint-designing not so sure, honestly I don't really look at that channel too much
noble niche
Same tbh
proper prairie
yeah #train-help is probably simpler. But #blueprint-designing might have some problems if everything is shoved into one
noble niche
Maybe just have a monthish long period where dlc builds have to be spoilered?
proper prairie
nah, I was thinking more like I could see a split between wanting to use the new quality stuff etc (idk haven't really paid attention to FFFs), which would have fundamental changes to the designs
strange magnet
as much as I hate threads, there could be one for quality stuff for a little while
problem is that threads are completely undiscoverable, so we would be pushing people into the thread constantly
supple basin
I dont like forced spoiler tags. Unlike Stellarus, Factorio is not really about exploration, story, discovery, and hardly has any content that could be considered spoilers. For example, the entire tech tree is revealed as soon as the game starts. Spoilering things stifles discussion and makes many people feel like they should not be talking about the content. People who feel that SA content are spoilers are in the minority and trying to limit discussion about SA content from #vanilla-chat and other channels (especially post release) is counterproductive to the the majority of players.
amber ingot
We don't know how many people do or don't want spoilers. And there's also people in between like myself who don't mind spoilers, but if I don't get spoiled it's also fun to experience new mechanics during a playthrough. Like several of the overhaul mods have some neat mechanics I didn't know about before and I enjoyed coming across them while playing.
I do agree that having a spoiler filled conversation isn't fun, but it's not like that'd be common. Those conversations would just move to #friday-facts . It's about mentioning space age stuff outside of #friday-facts because it happens to be relevant that would get spoilered. Moving channels isn't the best for conversations either, however still easier and better than having a chat filled with ||nothing but this all the way through||
proper prairie
spoiler bars are pretty obnoxious
noble niche
Better than being spoiled tbh
proper prairie
I mean I'd rather just put the stuff spoilery stuff in #friday-facts. If there's some one off comment about SA in some other chat, fine, spoiler. But any ongoing discussions -> #friday-facts
supple basin
Post release, I do think there will be a problem. Some people will not have the expansion and will want to talk about vanilla 2.0. Other people will have the expansion but will want to discuss vanilla. In that case and for that reason, I think having either a #space-exploration channel or a #no-expansion channel would be appropriate. But I really really do hate ||spoiler tags.||
re: unknown numbers of people who care about spoilers. I strongly suspect they are in the vast minority due to the few number people I have seen expressing worry about them, but I am open to being wrong. I think a community poll would be appropriate if the number of spoiler worried people is unknown. Again, I would avoid Stellarius spoilers because a big part of that game is uncovering what happens and how your choices affect unknown outcomes and the story of the game. But Factorio is a different kind of game, in a different genre, and the spoiler policy should be adopted to the game. I dont think its fair to ask the entire community to be forced to use spoiler tags to support (what I assume is) a very small number of people.
proper prairie
my POV is that I'm not really that much into spoilers vs no spoilers. More like "I'll concern myself when it's actually done"
like the speculation about the features is... well, speculation (until the release)
oblique totem
at it's core this is asking thousands of users to stop having normal discussions about the game just so a very, very tiny group of people won't maybe see a spoiler every so often. Seems like extra moderation work for no good reason.
if it's in an FFF i would argue it's not a spoiler anyway since it's public and intentionally shared by the developers, very much like a game trailer.
it also begs the question of when to lift the spoiler rule, and answering that question risks being contradictory to implementing it in the first place. (the users who want this rule might not buy it after release straight away, so do we lift the rule on release or when they all say they finally bought the game? no matter which you choose it looks bad and contradictory)
I think the best argument to be made here though is that if you want to avoid spoilers, stop trying to change how other people live their lives and instead change how you live yours. If you have a problem then you should be the one making a change otherwise you will always have the problem.
It's not fair and is a very entitled point of view to expect everyone around you to change their behaviour just because you can't restrain yourself and simply stop reading when you see even a hint of spoiler.
Personally i think this is a ridiculous conversation over a complete non-issue. There's no evidence anywhere in this discord that a relevant amount of users care about these supposed spoilers this much.
(probably the average factorio player is the type to either not care or already knows how the internet works and can avoid spoilers on their own)
strange magnet
It's not fair and is a very entitled point of view to expect everyone around you to change their behaviour
we already do this in other means, like telling people to move modded discussion to #modded-chat, offtopic stuff to #offtopic, #train-help , #combinators, #blueprint-designing, etc
all of these channels and more have specific reasons to be there and specific topics, is this not the same thing? you're just encouraged to talk about it in it's dedicated space, like #friday-facts or #space-age. Spoilering talk about it from outside those channels is a common courtesy, like using someone's correct pronouns or making literally any amount of effort to try to get along with people.
There's no evidence anywhere in this discord that a relevant amount of users care about these supposed spoilers this much.
maybe it's because we pushed them away with non-spoiler talk. who knows! if they know it's going to be mostly spoiler free, they might participate more, which is great. we don't want to discourage anyone from enjoying interacting with the community "over a complete non-issue."
99% of people are already using #friday-facts to talk about stuff, and #space-age just opened 5 minutes ago. all we're saying is that if you have to talk about spoilers, maybe take other people into consideration. it's not that hard.
hearty portal
> It's not fair and is a very entitled point of view to expect everyone around y...
Might be useful to mention in #announcements there is a new channel since some ppl might have custom channel lists.
(Raises hand) Haha
hearty portal
I found a second new one. Haha
carmine remnant
I thought about it... But with the FFF happening immediately after that and the fact there are some other changes 👀 we're looking at making I think it might be best to have it naturally get members for now then when we do the other changes we can do one big announcement to everyone.
hearty portal
I’ll get code to create a bot for me that looks for new channels. Haha
supple basin
at it's core this is asking thousands of users to stop having normal discussions...
This is reflects my opinion too, though I've said my bit and wont say more unless asked to. I'll agree to commit to what the moderation team decides. I'd ask that a spoiler embargo be short though. imo 6 months is too long.
strange magnet
I doubt there will even be much conversation outside of #friday-facts and #space-age to spoiler in the first place, I'm personally happy with ignoring it at release
carmine remnant
6 months is way too long. It will likely be like 1 week or at most 1 month.
Basically enough time for people to see that Space Age is out and decide if they care enough about spoilers to start playing right away.
strange magnet
I thought about it... But with the FFF happening immediately after that and the ...
counterpoint: do it before the FFF that way people talking about stuff afterward know where to go
though I suppose the rest of the channel members can point to those unaware
carmine remnant
Well technically FFF conversation goes into #friday-facts
And it seemed the agreement was that Space Age is rarely discussed in #vanilla-chat right now anyway
strange magnet
FFF discussion generally turns into generic 2.0 discussion about an hour after the FFF releases in my experience
not that it doesn't belong there, but if people know the channel exists, might as well use it
hearty portal
The one time someone mentioned SA, I think we guided them to #friday-facts
carmine remnant
at it's core this is asking thousands of users to stop having normal discussions...
Code has voiced very similar thoughts to me.
As a community we restrict a lot of "normal conversation" all the time. Reaction gifs and memes and the most obvious (and frequently warned against) ones but even then we ask people to move to other channels all the time. It's the job of the moderation team to find a balance that means as many people can participate as possible.
In terms of Space Age in #vanilla-chat, I don't think it is unreasonable that someone who is a long time Factorio Player and wants to play the DLC blind should be forced to avoid any participation in the community from when the FFFs started back up until whenever the DLC is released.
I don't think it's a huge ask for people discussing the DLC content to move into #friday-facts or #space-age or if they absolutely have to bring something up (which should be rare) to use a spoiler tag. And given that people rarely talk about Space Age in #vanilla-chat right now anyway it's not like we're asking everyone to reverse course and "swim upstream".
Once Space Age is available to buy the spoiler rule will be dropped, and that would only likely be one week after it can be purchased. Enough time for everyone to decide to buy the DLC or not and start playing. After that I think it's reasonable enough to assume that people who care about spoilers will have already picked up and started playing Space Age.
I really don't think this will be that uproarious
oblique totem
> It's not fair and is a very entitled point of view to expect everyone around y...
It's also not hard to avoid spoilers. Saying it's not hard is not a good argument, it very easily can be used exactly the same back at you.
In fact it's actually easier for an individual to avoid spoilers than it is for thousands of individuals to change their behaviour and a group of mods to moderate them.
strange magnet
my point is that thousands of individuals don't need to change their behavior because almost all of them are already doing it, nobody talks outside of the designated channels anyway
this is just something small that we can point to in the event that someone does
oblique totem
my point is that thousands of individuals don't need to change their behavior be...
This just further proves how much of a non-issue it is, if most people are already doing this then where is the issue? This discussion is self defeating at this point.
strange magnet
I think we're in agreement coming from two sides of the same coin then, it just doesn't hurt to remind people or have something official so if someone does post spoiler content outside of the channels, there's something we can actually tell people to look at instead of expecting them to know a hidden "rule"
oblique totem
Code has voiced very similar thoughts to me.
As a community we restrict a lot o...
This is true, it just seems like this thread was born out of a rather bad attitude rather than sincerity. It's comparable to opening the FFF email we all get then writing an email to the factorio devs to send FFFs to their inbox inside spoiler tags instead of the user just unsubscribing or simply not opening the email. It really does just seem like a waste of moderation for what i think is a very clear non-issue.
Obviously there wont be an uproar, i wouldn't even mind - i'm very blunt it can make people think im angry or something when i'm not.
carmine remnant
This is true, it just seems like this thread was born out of a rather bad attitu...
I don’t think receiving an FFF email and complaining it talks about future content is the same as participating in a chat about existing Factorio content and having people talk about unreleased content.
You can be blunt without being dismissive as well
oblique totem
I don’t think receiving an FFF email and complaining it talks about future conte...
I made the comparison because at any point we can just stop engaging whether email or message, this is normal for people who avoid spoilers. They turn the TV off, they close web browsers, they block users, they unsub etc, it's always a choice to continue reading spoilers and people who really don't like spoilers will not actively participate where spoilers are prone and updates are imminent, they are already not lurking because they know spoilers will pop up. It's also not going to stop spoilers popping up and these specific users will still have some stuff spoiled(admittedly, less often) if they insist on actively engaging in the community.
The non serious folks will always say the same thing "but i don't want to" and then expect other people to change and be really loud about it. It's totally fine if you guys want to accommodate that if you see that as legitimate i will not dispute that since it's all subjective and i respect that.
I am confident that this is not an issue which is why i appear dismissive, i truly do not believe there is an issue here that is worth any kind of moderation. CryoChick clearly does not agree they should take any responsibility for their time on the internet and seems to dismiss everything anyone has said so far with a very bad self entitled attitude, so i'll have to be forgiven for coming across dismissive, i do understand their point i just don't agree with how large the issue is supposed to be.
I'm not going to have a problem or anything, please don't confuse this for some sort of unwillingness to follow rules, that's not my angle at all here. Just sharing my piece.
carmine remnant
It costs the community next to nothing to simply ask people to move conversations about Space Age DLC into #space-age or #friday-facts.
Nobody is asking you to break your back bending over backwards for someone. And speaking frankly, while you view CryoChick as "not taking responsibility" and "very bad self entitled attitude", you come off much the same imho. Unwaveringly dismissive in your opinion that if people don't want spoilers then tough cookies and they can simply unplug the internet and close their blinds.
Reading back through this chat I think CryoChick handled themselves pretty appropriately and people who have been dismissing Cryo's concerns have handled themselves very pettily.
In no way do I think you're not going to follow the rules and even if I thought you were not it doesn't change anything until you tried.
As a steward of this community it's my job to hear out peoples thoughts, understand their rationalisation for them and think reasonably about what our responsibilities are as a community and if what someone is requesting is unreasonable (Even if the way some people ask is unreasonable)
Asking people to keep DLC talk to #space-age and #friday-facts until shortly after the DLC releases is easy, practically inconsequential and does not place any real burden on how I think the community is or will engage with the DLC as a topic (Except perhaps on the week leading up to and of release where there is likely to be more engagement and excitement in the server)
The worst case scenario is simply that we misjudge this impact and roll back the rule change. Nothing's permanent.
pure stratus
Unwaveringly dismissive in your opinion that if people don't want spoilers then tough cookies and they can simply unplug the internet and close their blinds. Is too true. It's way too easy to get accidentally spoiled, when images with modded content gets posted to #vanilla-chat all the time and you try to go "What is that?" as curiosity is a natural human trait. In many circles I'm the kind of guy who likes to be spoiler-free on stuff because I'm not as invested into a game or story, so in this case Factorio is the exception for me.
And as someone who understands the frustration of spoilers, I'm certainly going to do my part in keeping the spoiler stuff in its respective channels
My two cents: A +faq command for spoilers?
noble niche
@oblique totem "it isn't hard to avoid spoilers"
That is the biggest lie I have heard in a long time.
It is hard to avoid spoilers especially if people don't care about having the courtesy to hide spoilers. Spoilers for new mechanics in space age that would be a welcome surprise happen all the time. Someone shouldn't be taking a risk when using #quick-questions chat that a random person spoiled the dlc for them
You basically are saying I should leave the server entierly and cut off all communications with anyone discussing factorio in order to avoid spoilers. That is kinda self centered when all you have to do is put 4 little bars. The amount of energy you have put into saying I'm irresponsible is more than the energy it would take to spoiler something
I again frequent the questions chat and people post spoilers in there. Should I be unable to ask for help or help others in fear of being spoiled?
Your logic is like if a friend asks for you to not spoil Starfield in a group chat. And you told them to just leave the group chat instead.
Wait why am I even arguing this point with you
You didn't talk for 6 years then decided you wanted to fight to push people who spend actual time in the community out of the community
carmine remnant
I think people here need to remember Rule 1, Be Nice. There is nothing to gain by being aggressive to one another.
oblique totem
Wait why am I even arguing this point with you
You didn't talk for 6 years then ...
If you feel like you are being pushed out of a community because relatively few members don't agree with you about something subjective then the problem is entirely yours. Nowhere has anyone suggested you take such extreme measures, the fact that you go to extremes like this is why i advocate for you to fix your problems instead of offloading them to others, your problems very clearly are having a negative impact on yourself and this little change will not solve that problem for you. Spoiler content will still be there so the only thing left to do is for you to change how you interact with the internet. You are the only person that can stop yourself seeing spoilers, moderation here can only reduce it so much.
Your logic is like if a friend asks for you to not spoil Starfield in a group chat. And you told them to just leave the group chat instead.
Yes, exactly. If you have bad friends that you know will spoil stuff for you then you should leave the chat or at least mute it for a while. Why would someone who cares about spoilers stick around knowing they will get spoiled? I don't know anyone that would intentionally spoil things for themselves just so they can argue about it.
I stand by what i've said but the consensus is clear and my opinions do not change that fact, so it's fine for you and in fact fine for me and probably everyone 😊 . Calm down a little and realise that a disagreement is not an extreme circumstance. Good luck growing your factory 👌 sorry if you feel like anything i said was an attack against your membership here.
hearty portal
Reminds me of going to see a movie with a spoiler ending. Some of the ppl coming out of the movie were loudly revealing the spoiler ending for everyone waiting to see the new release movie. Very frustrating
noble niche
"Yes, exactly. If you have bad friends that you know will spoil stuff for you then you should leave the chat or at least mute it for a while"
sooo you're saying you're an asshole?
got it
there is no if ands or buts about it. if you think that telling someone to fuck off to avoid spoilers instead of not talking about it is the right thing to do youre an ass.