#Deadeye enemies are far too oppressive (especially in solo)

158 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

hot jackal
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As the title says, the Deadeye enemy just isn't fun to fight in it's current state. It is a great enemy concept in a vacuum, but in execution with other elements of the game its just frustrating.
It is by FAR the most oppressive enemy in the game currently, demanding your attention if any are in your area. No other enemy in the game forces you to have a counter in your kit, as it should be. I do not want to take something because I have to, I want my kit to be built the way I want to build it. The majority of primaries and spells in the game have little to no effect on the deadeye, which makes this next point all the more problematic:
They have absurdly high health for seemingly no reason, and its never fun when an enemy has high damage, mobility, AND health at the same time. It is sort of the flying overseer problem from Helldivers 2 all over again.
The biggest problem overall is the shot however. It is effectively hitscan, meaning you are taking guaranteed damage if it fires. Easy fix, just flinch it right? Well, no. In the difficulties it spawns in theres already so much clutter on the screen that it can be damn near impossible to see where they are, even with the indicators. But even if you can, SNAKES man. It almost feels scripted that any time there is a Deadeye taking aim, a snake will jump you and gauruntee you take the hit. But even outside of all of this, multiple can be around at the same time- I commonly see 3 at a time, and it is just frustrating. Trying to flinch all three, with all these aforementioned problems, all while knowing its going to take multiple magazines just to get all of them out of the sky... it isn't fun.
All these problems compound DRAMATICALLY in solo, making these already crazy oppressive enemies even worse. Solo is substantially less fun because of Deadeyes.
I am not a gamedev so I don't really know what would fix the issue, but I think making the shot a projectile instead of hitscan would go a long way- as well as reducing the health. I think nightmare is fun because the game becomes a bullet hell, but then you just have this one enemy that breaks all the rules. I really hope we can get a rework for this thing, it is a cool idea but it needs better execution.

UPDATE:

I have grown more used to their attacks and don't mind the health and hitscan anymore- it just took getting used to after having free reign in the playtest. I do, however, still think that too many spawn in solo as you cannot ask a friend to help flinch the Deadeyes if you are being CC'd or overwhelmed. Spawnrate reduction was already discussed, and I think it would be helpful to have their spawns tweaked in solo and 2-player gameplay. With 3 and 4, it isn't as much of an issue.

nocturne shale
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Was about to make a the same comment, this is an enemy that's hard for no reason, and it destroys the game period. It's probably fine if you playing 4 friends who all stick together and all spam Doll and Ritual, but when you play this game alone, it suddenly becomes the worse enemy mechanic i ever seen in a game, cause its unplayable.

hot jackal
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I wouldn't go as far as to say unplayable, but INCREDIBLY frustrating. It also makes you look up for a very long period of time because if its weirdly large healthpool, and it is effectively putting a blindfold over the player until you deal with the problem because you can't be looking down to address the other enemies- and I cannot stress this enough, snakes make snipers even more difficult to deal with.

narrow mirage
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i will say this, yes deadeye are strong but in the closed beta they were alot worse
more hp, flew higher, had more range and couldnt be stunned

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i run nightmare alot and i will say deadeye arent an issue its just people dont know how to counter them because its new, i use a shotgun+ boomerang build (absurdly low range) and they arent even an issue as you just shoot them once every few seconds

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also the damage isnt even that bad seeing as it takes like 5 seconds for them to even lock onto you while showing a giant laser pointing to them and while not looking at them a visual indicator to show that they are aiming at you (and ig there is a sound but thats not as important)

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pretty much just get use to them

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might take a while but best of luck 👍

hollow jungle
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Mf just wrote all that to say skill issue

narrow mirage
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yep

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if i suffered their worst you can suffer their best

heady trout
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Will adjust yah
thanks for the detailed feedbacks (again)

mystic hound
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thought the exact same things, but wanted to add that every single enemy attack can be dodged EXCEPT for the deadeye, leaving you to drop everything and prioritize dealing w them, making them feel really out of place

narrow mirage
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i mean having alot of them sucks but they arent that dangerous

timber summit
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my son :(

mystic hound
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while this is definitely a “get good moment”, when i booted up nightmare i’m usually able to navigate the hordes with movement and taking my time, but having 6 snipers aim down at you knowing that there is absolutely nothing you can do besides tag each of them to stun them was definitely something

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my point being that if the devs want to get rid of the “keep moving to survive infinitely” playstyle, then yes the snipers work great, but otherwise it feels contradictory

timber summit
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that was the point of the enemy yes

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like, 1:1

mystic hound
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no way i nailed that

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okay then it works fantastically and i need to figure out how to deal w that 😆

timber summit
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it was an adjustment for me too :P

mystic hound
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i was thinking, during the playtest, that the run and gun playstyle might be too easy/op so this makes a lot of sense

hot jackal
# mystic hound while this is definitely a “get good moment”, when i booted up nightmare i’m usu...

This is my point- and I don't think it is a 'skill issue' when something else is forcing your attention away, like a snake on your screen. In multiplayer its less of an issue (but still pretty irritating), but in solo they are extremely oppressive- too much, in my opinion.
I agree there absolutely needs to be a counter to run fast circle gameplay but I strongly believe these guys need rebalancing- again, ESPECIALLY in solo

hot jackal
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But "just shoot them" is not reliable when they can be behind birds, you have a snake on you, or something is forcing your attention away. If theres two or three, this problem compounds drastically.

timber summit
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what would you suggest?

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I'm mostly fucking around I will accept criticism about my son

hot jackal
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I think the biggest thing is definitely a health reduction, big time- or at the very least maybe some kind of "super crit" if you hit their jetpack that does significantly more damage or maybe makes them fall.
The other tweak I would make is after like a second or so behind cover they stop charging their shot.
At the very least if nothing else changes, change their spawnrate in solo specifically. Theres no friend to say "stun that sniper" to, and if theres a bunch it is HELL.

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Idk how to fix the snake problem- would be funny if you could look at the sniper if a snakes on your face and it hits the snake instead of you- counterplay while CC'd, and hilarious

timber summit
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Health makes or breaks them

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The first iteration had 70 (as opposed to the 100 it has now) and it was laughably weak

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Spawnrate seems like the better solution, since you think the problem gets worse the more Deadeyes there are, right?

hot jackal
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Yes, I think that would be the best change for sure

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Solo is where they are a major issue. With more players, they become more manageable

timber summit
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good feedback YesYes

hot jackal
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I would try to keep it to like, one sniper per player ideally. If a solo player starts aggroing the entire map I think they deserve two tracking them, but I would make that the outlier, not the norm.

mystic hound
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^ i think when i had 2 snipers on me in nightmare, it felt okay but as soon as i looked up again and saw 6 i was like oh im fucked

timber summit
mystic hound
hot jackal
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oh no embeds damn lmao

empty snow
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i find the deadeyes refreshing honestly

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not that they couldnt be better designed but

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they are one of the key things that makes the game legitimately challenging on nightmare difficulty

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it is really shitty having like 6+ of them on you when you can't hope to kill them all before taking multiple chunks of damage

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but if their spawn rate is going to be reduced id like to see other aspects of nightmare made harder to compensate

thin harness
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I agree most with what is said here, I think they could be adjusted a bit at the very least.

I think a positive change would be to double their size to make them a bit easier to target given the distance they sit at, and potentially make their weapon shoot a dodge-able projectile instead of the hitscan weapon they currently have.

scarlet delta
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idk if any of yall have played Darktide, but the snipers in that game have a window you can dodge in. If you dodge in that window they won't hit you, but you have to pay attention for that audio and visual queue. Something similar here would be good imo

tropic tiger
azure notch
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Maybe only 2 deadeyes at most can aim at a player at any given moment. It's frustrating getting guaranteed damage if I'm not able to shoot 8 of them within 5 seconds while also dodging every other enemy projectile.

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Also helps ease clutch plays when you're the last one standing. It's pretty much a death sentence when every deadeye locks onto you.

meager ingot
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yeah I agree that theyre far too oppressive. Changing them to a mini boss or simply making them dogable would be nice

narrow mirage
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i mean you get 5+ seconds to look at them and shoot them once then repeat or just kill them

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its not like you need to drop everything and shoot them, the damage they do isnt THAT insane as well

meager ingot
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the problem is that theyre garenteed damage

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from any range

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and when there are like 5 of them while your entire team is dead it makes it really really difficult

narrow mirage
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i mean i can deal with 5 of them when i run solo games on nightmare

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all you really need is some form of crowd control to kill all the grunts

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if you have that 90% of deadeye haters wont complain anymore

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its just demo builds arent fit for working against the deadeye

meager ingot
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I just think the sniper enemy should feel more likea mini boss instead of anoyying nats that are spammed

narrow mirage
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thats what its suppose to be tho

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its not suppose to be some big giant enemy that you need to focus

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its suppose to be something that stops you mindlessly looping enemies

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sure its annoying but it makes the game better

meager ingot
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they are in the same catagory the horseman is

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and also pretty much every enemy is fodder weak enemies other than lych and horseman

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so more variety is enemy class would be nice

narrow mirage
meager ingot
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no? its another spammed ranged enemy

narrow mirage
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you gotta stop shooting other stuff to kill it otherwise you take a bit of damage

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its not some insta kill op enemy

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i dont think i have died to them yet

meager ingot
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in a vaccum theyre fine, but when combined with everything and the amount that show up they feel oppresive in a way no other enemy really does(for good reason)

narrow mirage
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not saying any dumb shit like "ur bad" but im saying deadeye are balanced right now

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they are in a great spot

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its just a new enemy and you need to get use to it thats all

meager ingot
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horseman beams are a deadly attack sure, but you always choose when to engage a horseman, and there is almost always 1 of them unless you intentionally agro multiple. Also the beam is dodgeable.

my main issue with deadeyes is that they are a bit over-kitted for an enemy that is spawned to its degree and when its spawned(bascially always) also they are one of the few enemies that really compound on eachother(lyches are the other) since theyre attacks force alot of movment

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their damage isn't even that high, its just that its so consitent and oppresive that it will chip you down constantally

narrow mirage
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i mean like i said you dont have to kill them
hit them once move on repeat if you need to
also even on nightmare there arent that many

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there are like 2-4 max

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in a danger zone

meager ingot
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the issue is that they force your attention, while also having pretty high spawnrate. And the punishment for ignoring them isn't managable unlike all other enemies because of their garenteed damage

timber summit
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🍿

meager ingot
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also their difficulty based on build is pretty high which isn't too much of an issue but it can if someone is under leveled

narrow mirage
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like i said deadeye arent op ITS JUST THE FACT THEY ARE NEW 😭

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blame sammy for them being added idk gang

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im gone

meager ingot
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its morso underleveld weapons/players struggle WAYY more than they honestly should

upper geyser
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Me personally I'm fine with the damage but maybe having the beam track and then just as it's about to fire maybe stop where you were then fire. The best way I can describe this is the way that WH40k Darktide snipers work.

timber summit
meager ingot
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whats funny is the best strat to counter them when there is a hoard of them is to just run away and find cover to pick them off

hot jackal
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i think just tweaking their spawnrate is all it needs. its only a major problem in solo, the moment you get other players involved they are a lot more manageable

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outside of that, i think they are fine

patent lark
hot jackal
# timber summit > enemy designed to counter fast movement > look inside > countered by moving fa...

I wish I could pin in my own thread, but after playing longer and enough to prestige, I don't stand by a lot of these points anymore outside of specifically solo gameplay. I am fine with their health and hitscan attacks, and once you level up you will have enough health to take the hits. However, in solo they still end up being more frustrating than fun to play around, and so I still want their spawns tweaked in that department.

frail surge
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I Echo this, they end up being more frustrating then fun to deal with, i don't mind occasionally looking up but I've had games where it felt like my head was perpetually glued to the sky., I'd much, rather them be deadlier and fewer than they be like a million annoying mosquitos i have to constantly be swatting out of the sky

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i feel like this one is more important though, i have a couple of vision impaired friends, and this mob is an absolute death sentence to them

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Especially during storms they just become impossible for them to keep track of as they shoot at the edge/ outside of vision range

mental comet
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Like if there was a spawn cap and they didn't spawn so frequently, it would be fine, but this is genuinelly unfair and unfun with how frequent they are.

hybrid pagoda
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Maybe a max of 3 per player

whole berry
narrow mirage
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could just be because i kill them when i see them but there are hardly any

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they arent an issue unless ur ignoring them

mental comet
azure notch
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Perhaps only spray weapons like the shotgun/quad/minigun are effective since it takes one bullet to make them flinch and cancel their aim. I might have been having a hard time dealing with multiple deadeyes locking on me since I'm using leveredge, a single-target weapon, with the boomerang.

frail surge
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Leveredge feels really punishing to use especially if you have the weakshot blue in hand

hot jackal
# azure notch Perhaps only spray weapons like the shotgun/quad/minigun are effective since it ...

Ironically I feel the opposite. If im using the minigun or shotgun I have more trouble with them. The leveredge or sniper can kill them quickly so it removes them as a threat, whereas the shotgun or minigun only stall them. I run sheriff stars and they can reliably flinch them but they aren't so good for killing them since the stars are hard to recover later- and it takes about 5 to 6 stars to kill them.

fleet heart
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I think if they just flew a little closer to the grounds. So that on certain maps with almost no tall cover, you could still use double player height sized rock as cover.

meager ingot
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honestly the main issue with them is when they swarm you in nightmare to the point where you can't kill them all before more spawn, which ususally just happens with teamates not knowing, or being underleveled. That being said their spawn cap could be lowered/implemented

azure notch
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I also have an issue with them being able to shoot from outside of the boss barrier, in which you can't shoot them. But that's not only exclusive to deadeye, it also happens with any ranged unit like the mini gunner.

hot jackal
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^^ I actually experience this too. Definitely needs to be patched out, which I am sure it will soon.

upbeat swift
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I think the reason they'll always be annoying is fundamentally their purpose. The entire game is built around movement, afaik there's no build that allows you to tank enemy hits reliably, so you HAVE to dodge.. making movement the only feasible strategy. So players end up building their way to nightmare with mobility mods only to find that everything they've build so far is useless as it gets countered by 1 normal enemy. I have a couple ideas though:

  • Just remove them completely (Retain the original mobility strat)
  • Add a chance for players to dodge them though much smaller than other enemies (Emphasize mobility even more)
  • Add some sort of auto-aim ability or mod for weapons (That would greatly reduce the pressure of having to focus on them)
  • Add other strats to survive, maybe mods that significantly reduce damage taken for speed hit or increase health for lower damage output. You can also just add shields that regenerate where damage can't bleed through and a very short invincibility period. (I'd say this is the best approach, but the most effort 😊
rain tulip
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ironically, an easier fix would be to have the option to lower the crosshairs like most modern FPS games have allowing you to see more of the sky box

astral frost
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just want to be able to do a perfectly timed dash to dodge them like in darktide, or another way to evade them, all i ask
not only would it make them less oppressive but it’d also introduce another level of satisfying skill expression

echo anvil
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The current Deadeyes feel good to me, they can be nasty at times but they're just a high priority enemy like the buffalos

rotund notch
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i'm ngl i have been playing solo up to very hard and do the deadeyes have a hit scan until firing? i've been able to dodge them pretty okay by waiting until the last second to dash... is this intended? or maybe i'm just a god? idk

uncut torrent
rotund notch
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apparently i've been dodging the wind as the deadeye bullets tear through my robocowboy body

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as they do hit no matter what

echo anvil
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It's rare to face more than 2 at a time, typically only if you trigger multiple pre-spawned ones in my experience

frosty swan
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I don't like 'em, they also put users of weapons with low range and heavy spread at even more of an advantage, the other issue is they often just materialize out of thin air, if there was a set amount of deadeyes spawning in the beginning without new ones just blipping into existence, they'd work more like sentries to punish rushers, but as of now they just delete you way too fast, and a lot of maps don't have cover.

uncut torrent
echo anvil
uncut torrent
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id think something similar to how spacemarine2 handles 'sniper' type enemies wouldnt be a bad direction, they track you with a laser until with a building sound queue similar to the deadeyes but if you dodge before the shot goes off the enemy 'fires early' for lack of a better way to explain it and you dodge the attack

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you still have to interact and pay attention to the enemies but its not a death sentence if you are running shotgun boomerang anymore

echo anvil
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Well, the point of them is to encourage players to build in other directions than mobility. They are supposed to be a direct counter to mobility.
I've had no issues with them when I specifically built weapons to deal with them, whether solo or multiplayer. And I've had no issues in solo with just any weapon that has good range

uncut torrent
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yeah thats the problem i guess, we were having fun with our goofy builds and got rolled because suddenly theres a new enemy type that we cant hit with spells while its fully long range with an undodgeable attack that does high damage

if there was one or two sure ok thats annoying but manageable imo but 5? 6 possibly? i dont know i went from 130 health to 0 in about 5 seconds lol

echo anvil
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The boomerang shouldn't have too much of an issue against them, deadeyes don't snipe you cross map like the cannons so they shouldn't be unreasonably out of reach of the boomerang.
And the shotgun has a unique joker that makes your first shot completely accurate (afaik, I haven't actually used it yet), could build around that to make it work against deadeyes.

uncut torrent
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ive got like 5 levels in my boomerang and shotgun is like 21 lol

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ive specced the rang into lifesteal and staying or whatever its called the range is fairly poor

fleet heart
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Dead eye has 100HP. Also hitting weak point once, staggers them so the gun blocks both weak points (head and jetpack). So if you need multiple weak point hit to kill, wait a bit before each shots.

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If you geared your ranger or leveredge well enough, you should be able to OS weakpoint on them.

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Revolver should be able to kill in a full mag in the body if it's kitted for damage of element combo too.

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Boomerang shouldn't be too bad eitheir.

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You should have a longer range gun with your Shotgun/Bow/Dual revolver/Sheriff stars. Aki_Think

muted breach
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Boomerang has a bug where it won't stick to deadeyes, which is rough.

digital basinBOT
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If you've found a bug please check #╰🐛⬩report-a-bug

fleet heart
hot jackal
# echo anvil Well, the point of them is to encourage players to build in other directions tha...

I main the long ranger now, so sort of same- minigun and shotgun still feel pretty ass to fight them with though. Shotgun has the slug unique which helps, but until they add a center reticle when you run it I don't really care for it. I still think less could spawn in single player, because if you are running a close-range build they can spawn and build pretty fast. Also again, the majority of spells can't reach them which further strong arms you into running something like the ranger or the leveredge.
That said I've since changed a lot of my opinions as the edit shows- though I do think a spawn adjustment for nightmare mode in solo would still serve to benefit the game. Either way I kinda hate that this has become the biggest discussion for deadeyes when I've since changed most of my thoughts on this lol

weary thistle
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I feel like its perfectly reasonable to let it hard track you but let us have an indicator to make it dodgable at the last second or even half second. Hit scan isnt fun, an enemy that can easily hit you is fine as long as there is some way to circumvent it other than having to focus 100% of your attention on it as soon as it exists.

frosty swan
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A lot of games have AI routines for enemies to not shoot you all at once. E.g. Warframe can spawn 50 ranged enemies but never more than 2 will actually attack you at the same time. That being said, I think a lot of people agree with the initial frustration despite OPs change of mind. And some have had much worse experiences with deadeyes. I think they just make the game less fun to play. Same as the artillery spawning in your way all the time on Hard. They just constantly make you stop, shoot, move on, because if you don't, they'll ruin your next encounter. I never felt like this in Helldivers or Deep Rock when going up difficulty. The difference between meaningfully hard and unfair and annoying is minor, but the effects are huge.

weary thistle
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Honestly two is fine, on solo very hard it's not even really an issue. The only problem is nightmare solo and even with people when there is a horsemen and 6 deadeyes.

meager ingot
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after more time with them I don't think theyre as big an issue. But their spawn rate/cap should be change since a team mate spawning like 8 of them and then they gang up on you feels pretty bad.

silk crypt
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Hello @timber summit 👋 in 4 man nightmare ive been the last alive running out of ammo taking out deadeyes. I had a run where i was last alive and after killing a deadeye it would respawn instantly in the same spot 7 times in a row ): . Please reduce the spawn rates and cap their numbers 🙏

Other routes:

  • Los breaks their charge
  • 1 hp like other flyers (but i heard you disliked this one)
  • They dont have 100% accuracy
  • If there is no deadeye alive during a storm, boss, obj, etc a time limit must pass for another to spawn (if you do this route you could spawn it as a group of them and when they all get killed they respawn after a nice amount of time has passed 🙃 )
timber summit
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my son's getting nerfed dont you worry

silk crypt
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Thank you sir sammy

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🫡

raven coyote
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Are Deadeyes meant to have infinite range once they lock-on? I just got sniped half way across the map from the Boss pit to Extraction after warping with Portal :/

meager ingot
raven coyote
mental comet