programmers-off-topic

[safe dragon]

also AST is a standard abbreviation used industry wide so you're fine there

[little furnace]

I just found it, do I look like a low-level (yes, it's low-level to me) coder?

[devout vault]

I'm not saying impossible either

[safe dragon]

I ""know"" over 1000 kanji

[runic kraken]

I mean I posted my haskellified C# before I switched to Ocaml and they almost banned me from their discord.

 public static Result<Expr> ParseIf(ParserState state) =>
    Result.Ok(state.Advance()) // Consume 'if'
        *  ParseExpr(state)
        >> cond => Expect(state, T.Then)
        *  ParseExpr(state)
        >> thenBr => Expect(state, T.Else)
        *  ParseExpr(state)
        >> elseBr => Result.Ok(new IfExpr(cond, thenBr, elseBr)); 

it looked like this

[devout vault]

I just wouldn't describe it as "not that hard", especially if (admittedly I'm assuming this based on this server being english) you've only ever worked with alphabet-based languages

I find it very hard to believe that you would get (almost) banned for unreadable code

[little furnace]

It was probably an exaggeration.

[safe dragon]

honestly I feel like they didn't even think that was C#. Like that code would never pass a code review

[runic kraken]

A Microsoft dev took personal offense to it which I wear as a badge of honor

[devout vault]

-# good point, tone is hard to tell on the internet 😔

[little furnace]

Did you reply with "I use Arch btw"?

[runic kraken]

No :) I should have

[long verge]

Resisting the urge to say i use arch btw

[runic kraken]

>> is >>= and * is <*> btw

or something, idr exactly

I wrote this code at like 4 am and then remembered Ocaml exisited

[little furnace]

I used Arch until I accidentially the root directory.

Still never got to repair it.

[safe dragon]

yeah I remember your explanation

[devout vault]

Yeah, I feel like part of using a language and expecting it to be readable to others is to follow that languages idioms where it is reasonable.

I remember seeing some heinous operator overloading crimes on the SFML forums ages ago.

[runic kraken]

I had to do this because I am NOT writing 20-30 lines of recursive parser descent functions with try/catch

[safe dragon]

that explanation also only makes sense to me cause I've used haskell lmao

[runic kraken]

It would be incredibly verbose

Normally I would never do this, I hate OOP and C# so I use it in a semi-functional way but I atleast dont do this insanity

[devout vault]

I mean, there's a very similar way to do something similar but more typical-C#-like that would be less unclear to people. You'd just model it after Linq rather than operator overloading

[runic kraken]

It would look far more alien than this

is a clear pipe symbol

[safe dragon]

I guess that's ultimately the most important. Follow the conventions of the language or community you're in. LIke the modders here have a C# convention I don't entirely agree with but if I was making a mod I'd try to stick to that

[devout vault]

I've never used haskell or ocaml or whatever, so that doesn't help

[runic kraken]

I suggest ocaml, its nice

Haskell will mind fuck you entirely

[devout vault]

Can't say I agree. C++ was my first "serious" programming language, and I still feel like std::cout << "meow"; and std::cin >> var; was a sin

[runic kraken]

There are no variables, no for loops, and everyone writes 2 letter long names

(There are variables, but they live in IORef or State)

[safe dragon]

also you've now overloaded * to mean the <*> applicative operator but what would you now do if you want to add support for <* and *> which are also used regularly for stuff like this

[runic kraken]

write a custom transpiler that takes my custom operator overloading syntax and converts it to ape-like C# nested functions

[safe dragon]

[runic kraken]

I'll actually do it at some point

Its the one thing I hate from C# more than anything in the world

[long verge]

quite the point of functional programming

[safe dragon]

haskell is a weird land

there are functional programming languages with pretty simple nice syntax and more "normal" coding conventions than haskell though

[runic kraken]

so I could do

#operators List, Maybe, Result {
  #operator <*> infixr 9 $object.App
  #operator <$> infixr 9 $object.Map
  #operator <#> infixr 9 $object.Flip($object.Map)
  #operator >>= infixr 8 $object.Bind
  #operator >> infixr  8 $object.Seq
#}

public static void Main() {
    var xs = [1, 2, 3];
    var add_one = (x) => x + 1;

    var new_xs = add_one <$> xs;
}

fixed my worst issue with C#

[safe dragon]

I think you're meant for haskell

or that niche

[runic kraken]

yes but i use C# for certain projects

like my app I am developing (cross platform drawing app)

[devout vault]

Can you even call it C# if you're adding new operators and stuff and just transpiling into plain C#. That's closer to a new-but-similar language meant to run on the same platform (ie. the .net runtime)

If I remember right that's even how C++ began (as "C with classes") - it transpiled its custom stuff to C, and then that got compiled to assembly

[safe dragon]

forcing another (wildly different) language's syntax onto C# to me is just a recipe for nightmares

[runic kraken]

No, it would be like TS is to JS

I would probably call it H#

[safe dragon]

a functional programming alternative to C#... we'll call it F#

wait...

[runic kraken]

I could probably add discriminated unions in less time than it takes Microsoft to do it too lol

This transpiler would be childs play compared to the language I am developing currently

[safe dragon]

why are you using C# and not F# anyway

[runic kraken]

dead language sadly

[safe dragon]

F# still gets updates every release cycle

[little furnace]

10.0 was released three months ago.

[devout vault]

It probably is easier to add a new feature to a still-in-development language/runtime than a long-established one that has become huge and needs to worry about backwards compatibility and such, yeah

[safe dragon]

it benefits from also being a .NET language so all the performance work done in .NET transfers to F#

[long verge]

The compiler errors are gonna be funny

[runic kraken]

Not really, it will transpile to C# function chains

[safe dragon]

like template heavy C++

mystical error messages

[devout vault]

Templates are great! They're also an abomination

[runic kraken]

Its a deterministic 1:1 output

[devout vault]

There are legitimately times that I've wanted templates in C#. Mostly before I knew much about generics, but even more recently there have been some cases (that I don't recall off the top of my head)

[runic kraken]

well okay maybe a bit more complex because I want to force typeclasses into it

type Shape =
    | Rectangle(int w, int h)
    | Circle(int radius);

#[infixr 9 `<$>` mapping=$.Map]
public List<A> `<$>`(..) => {} 

#[infixr 9 `<$>` mapping=$.Map]
public Option<A> `<$>`(..) => {} 

#[infixr 9 `<$>` mapping=$.Map]
public Result<A,B> `<$>`(..) => {} 

typeclass Functor {
    public `<$>`(..)
}

it'll look a bit like this unprocessed

Ill probably have to fake HKT but I could backport what Im going to do for my language and transform C# from a garbage tier language that is "fine" to a god tier one

[safe dragon]

good luck forcing typeclasses into a language not designed for them

[runic kraken]

I can create witness types

Mojang does it with Java

[dusty pollen]

fun fact: most people actually do remember and read words as whole words (rather than sequences of letters) for the most part so you do remember thousands of visual representations of words too! (alphabets help a lot for dyslexic people and for people who are learning the language though because they help bridge the gap before you do remember all the thousands of words, because they allow you to use the sounds to reverse engineer the way to write the word)

[devout vault]

Yeah, that's even the whole premise behind correct horse battery staple, right?

I more meant exactly what you said about the bridge the gap thing.

Same sort of reason why it's easier to remember a quote than "the amount of digits of pi that equals that amount of characters in said quote"

And even if you don't remember the exact words of the quote, it's easier to remember close to it. (ie. me and almost every quote ever)

(Or that's how it works for me)

[dusty pollen]

(I found those "did you know you can read without vowels" things funny when I first moved to the uk because my first language is an alphabet but with limited and optional vowels lmao)

[dusty pollen]

that's more to do with the fact we're very good at storing the meanings of things I think? rather than how we actually process text

[devout vault]

I guess I assumed that's related to being able to recall words as whole words, rather than strictly how they are spelled

Like when multilingual people know there's a word for something in a newer language, but can't remember what it actually is

[dusty pollen]

I think that's also more to do with semantic meaning? but idk

(also btw it works both ways, you can absolutely forget the word in your MAIN language )

[devout vault]

Semi-related, this is a fun concept, even if (from what I understand) it's less believed to be "determinism" but more about influencing it.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Linguistic_determinism

[devout vault]

See I'm an american monolingual scrub, so I don't have experience with it personally. 😛

Well, unless you count not remembering what something is called and so having a hard time looking up how it works / how to do it / etc. (usually programming related stuff)

[runic kraken]

kanji is actually very logical

[dusty pollen]

iirc this one is extremely controversial? but I do think the relativism version makes sense to me

[runic kraken]

english is very illogical and 'vibey' and i hate that

[long verge]

What’s illogical about English ?

[runic kraken]

literally everything

[dusty pollen]

I didn't say it wasn't, tbf but yeah, English as a writing system struggles because of how many influences it has

[long verge]

And more precisely ?

[runic kraken]

there is not a single logical thing about the english language

[marble jewel]

Ah, that clears it up then

[runic kraken]

you can look it up

[lethal walrus]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ghoti for example

[runic kraken]

but one example is like multiple versions of the similar concept with the same pronounciation that differ slightly

[long verge]

Aight

[runic kraken]

their, there, theyre

i mess it up all the time

[marble jewel]

For example:
this part -> literally everything <- that part
Apparently

[long verge]

They’re nothing illogical about that

[dusty pollen]

some of it is just the normal problems that all natural languages face tbh, I've always hated when people claimed English is particularly nightmarish compared to other languages because ngl it isn't in my opinion, it's somewhere in the middle

[devout vault]

Yeah, I mainly meant the concept is fascinating.

And even if it's not strictly true in the determinism sense, I think the influence concept has merit. Anecdotal, but the whole reason I didn't transition until late college is I never even learned it was a concept to begin with. But when I did it was just so accurate to the feeling I'd had for so long that I couldn't quite name

[long verge]

Ahah funny

[marble jewel]

Is the illogical in the room with us right now?

[dusty pollen]

please don't call other people fools for saying things don't make sense to them... we can keep this conversation impersonal

[devout vault]

I dunno, I just found "how things work" to be fascinating in general regardless of subject.

Even if it's not correct or even real - like, I love thinking about how things work in a fantasy setting, for example

[marble jewel]

I read it as self-deprecating humor (which should still be discouraged)

[devout vault]

I feel like any language that naturally evolved over a long period of time is going to have at least some problems on that front.

(Like iro said)

[dusty pollen]

(in this case, the person doing the thing being joked about is not the person making the joke, so we should just be careful)

[marble jewel]

Bah, English language strikes again

[devout vault]

Kinda like this quote, but it's originally about programming languages: "There are only two kinds of languages: the ones people complain about and the ones nobody uses."

[dusty pollen]

hey, I disagree with this entirely

some are both!

[long verge]

Yes my bad

[dusty pollen]

if you had to pick one thing to magically fix in one language, natural or programming, what would it be

[devout vault]

Hmm. Does being able to say makGaem() and it automatically make a full sized game for me to play based on exactly what I want in that moment count?

[dusty pollen]

the fix would be performed magically but would not make the language magic

[devout vault]

Hmm

I can't really say I'd pick a linguistic language thing at all - like sure, there are problems, but I'm not sure what could be done that wouldn't also negatively impact other things.

Like, linguistic language isn't simply used to communicate things objectively, so we can't just remove ambiguity without taking away from those other aspects.

[long verge]

I found English fairly easy to learn, at least as a French considering it might be more difficult for people not using Latin alphabet.
Especially due to the fact that English is a gender-neutral language with fewer conjugations and inflections.

[dusty pollen]

tbf, English and French are very close considering English kind of came from French

[devout vault]

All the romance languages are easier to learn starting from one going to another, compared to romance language -> other type of language. Right?

[dusty pollen]

does English technically count as a romance language?

[terse galleon]

inb4 technically english is germanic

[devout vault]

Hmm. Dunno

[terse galleon]

DAMN IT IRO

[devout vault]

I'm not a linguistic nerd, that's one of my brothers 😛

[dusty pollen]

but yeah, things like not having a grammatical gender system, having a very simple alphabet (not an abjad, no accents, no final letters), not being tonal etc make English relatively on the simple side imo

[long verge]

Yes most of Germanic language shares a lot a similarities

[worn remnant]

this answer is kind of cheating, but lang: english thing: orthography

[devout vault]

I guess rather than romance languages, I meant whatever you call latin-derived ones

[terse galleon]

what’s your guys favorite orthography. mine is a toss up between cherokee and korean

[devout vault]

Or are germanic ones not derived from that either

[dusty pollen]

ngl I like Hebrew but I'm biased

[devout vault]

Tell me what an orthography is first

[terse galleon]

latin derived are romantic yeah

orthography = writing system

[devout vault]

Oh

[long verge]

I once tried to learn Polish and got scared

[devout vault]

You know, sometimes I feel like syllabaries are saner than alphabets

[terse galleon]

i do like a good syllabary

[devout vault]

But I don't know how easily they translate to alphabet structure

[terse galleon]

they’re like puzzles

[worn remnant]

i don't have any particular beef with alphabets, except in english
(orthography is spelling)

[supple ether]

https://slopscript.netlify.app/

[devout vault]

You don't understand. I still want it to have the soul and heart of making it all myself, but be instantaneous.

[thin estuary]

i bardzo dobrze

[supple ether]

that's what neuralink is for, right? /j

[devout vault]

Like if you made a copy of me into a compressed time chamber in a producitivty-for-casey-focused alternate timeline, and then gave real me the end result.

dystopian? What's that?

[marble jewel]

Monkey's paw wish granted - GPT 6 or whatever

[devout vault]

Are we still on gpt 5?

[marble jewel]

Yeah I guess 6 having makGaem() is a too optimistic. GPT 24

[terse galleon]

isn’t google’s new thing a video game-making AI

[marble jewel]

There's also that Roblox controversy

I remember reading something about the promises they're making to investors vs developers

[devout vault]

I feel like y'all are skipping the two things where I said "yeah AI won't do it right"

[marble jewel]

The problem with LLMs is that they're still building against a programming language meant for humans understanding. What we need are languages that AI can used to communicate within itself that humans couldn't possibly understand. What could go wrong?

[devout vault]

didn't one of the translation models pre-LLM-madness get shut down for that reason

[cinder karma]

I do it and it replies "go outside"

[marble jewel]

Have you touched your grass today?

[cinder karma]

Matt did u see matplotlib

[marble jewel]

See it? Where'd it go?

[devout vault]

Did another thing happen re:the AI pull request?

[terse galleon]

oh i’m fully with you there lol i expect nothing but disappointment and wasted resources from it 😂

[marble jewel]

If AI can communicate in a language optimized for its own understanding, then maybe that Terminator future can finally be realized

[red crest]

(sorry atra)

[cinder karma]

I think it's funny lol

Every. Time.

[terse galleon]

you jailbird you

[cinder karma]

Matt, start here https://theshamblog.com/an-ai-agent-published-a-hit-piece-on-me/

[marble jewel]

Oh wow is judgement Day already upon us?

[devout vault]

There's two followup articles to that one too

[cinder karma]

Anyways I keep getting smite by automod lol

At this point it's hilarious

[devout vault]

Mozart serially kills Godot.

Automod serially smites atravita.

(Godot has been pretty safe ever since I moved him to a higher shelf)

[fleet wren]

why does every AI write the same fucking way
once you start to notice the "this isn't <clumsy metaphor>, this is <even clumsier metaphor>" pattern that every LLMs are in love with you'll see it everywhere

heck even wikipedia lists it out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:Signs_of_AI_writing#Negative_parallelisms

[marble jewel]

It is strange to me that AI has developed it's own way of presenting things that is recognizably AI. Like are there examples of this in the material it was trained from, or how else did it pick up these patterns?

[fleet wren]

(very informative article btw; wikipedia presumably has to deal with a deluge of this stuff in edits)

[dusty pollen]

I think it just picked up the true zero / origin of writing, but it’s so recognisable because there’s nothing else when AI writes

so it’s distilled

like influencer apologies always get accused of being ai because the other thing that sits near the true center of writing is pr speak

[little furnace]

I'd change the spelling of the English language to be consistent, more in line with other Latin languages and it would affect all romanizations that are based on English as well.

[dusty pollen]

another point to orthography

[marble jewel]

In other words, what AI really needs to sound more authentic is just a little bit of chaos. Perhaps that's the "human factor"

[dusty pollen]

(but also probably the ability to use things with intent - part of the reason ai writing feels so off imo is that it has a lot of the components that human writing has but they’re just thrown in there at a proportional frequency rather than being used with the speech flows and intentions that humans would use them in, because ai doesn’t have as much of an idea of WHY we do these things)

but also you just described the idea of “temperature” in llms basically

[marble jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/pass-the-butter-what-is-my-purpose-rick-and-morty-oh-my-god-camera-gif-16450188

[steel kraken]

My general view of things is I want the backend to do as little as possible and only be responsible for persistent storage (database) and be the final decision maker for mutating that storage.

if I have 500 concurrent users, then if the frontend does the work I have distributed compute for $0, if the backend does all the work I have a more expensive compute bill.

[prisma flume]

it's perfectly logical when you understand it's largely the product of england being conquered by the owners of all of the language's parts. now why you think mandarin is remotely logical, clear, and understandable is beyond me the language is also littered with loanwords as phoneticised with roughly matching phonetic symbols/groups and at least to the untrained ear has just as many near-homophones

compatibility and edge-case support will always ruin the most beautifully crafted codebase 🙂‍↕️

[devout vault]

This is apparently roslyn

I haven't been on my computer since last night

What is it even doing to jump between 5 GB and 30 GB so much

Hope killing it didn't break anything

[cinder karma]

Global interpreter lock

[prisma flume]

does mandarin have global interpreter lock

[cinder karma]

Yes

Only one man can interpret mandarin at any point and I'm waiting for him to tell me what my grandmother told me for Lunar New Year

[prisma flume]

if i know mandarin-speaking grandmothers it was either 'happy new year' or 'are you married yet'

[cinder karma]

My favorite brit posted!

https://youtu.be/da9GwXX-0Zs?si=42syvUuwgwD8-Y5h

[prisma flume]

me?

[cinder karma]

You're aussie.

[devout vault]

RIP the lord of pie 😔

[cinder karma]

DH knows.

[devout vault]

I know

[cinder karma]

He knows I very much appreciate quality teaching

Damn

[devout vault]

One doesn't stop wishing someone RsIP just because they wished it once before

[cinder karma]

If I had 6 more hours per day I would love to grab an adjunct position at the local university

(@ Elizabeth)

[cinder karma]

This is new

[sand frost]

I think you'd be good at it!

the not-@ worked 😛

[cinder karma]

Six more hours per day

I need 30 hr days

[sand frost]

i have been trying to learn taiwanese/southern min/hokkien/whatever you want to call it and the 9 tones are murdering me

[sand frost]

there's probably some planet out there....

mandarin at least has a ~canonized orthography, taiwanese has "um well let's just write it down phonetically for a little bit cause we don't have characters for this one"

and several slightly different phonetic systems

and a ton of japanese loanwords that were originally english before they were japanese

[devout vault]

It seems we'll need FTL for that though, since our solar system has "around an earth day, or much less" and "at least a couple months", with nothing* in between

* well, Pluto, but that's still substantially more than 30 hours

[cinder karma]

No no no

I just get 6 extra hours like I'm Hermione Granger in book 3

[devout vault]

Yeah I don't want days that long for capitalism to abuse either

[devout vault]

oh

Hmm

[pliant snow]

Today's troubleshooting nightmare -- I've been googling a problem, found a reddit post that looked like what I wanted, only to find it's the reddit post I made yesterday which still doesn't have the answer

[prisma flume]

book 3 of what

[devout vault]

The books by She Who Shall Not Be Named

[pliant snow]

the wheel of time

[devout vault]

(I figure you know, I just wanted to make that joke)

[cinder karma]

I mean I want the extra time so I can get a second job as an adjunct professor so

[devout vault]

something something calaway's law

[cinder karma]

Capitalism

[prisma flume]

i simply won't stand for anyone saying mandarin is logical when 可 is 'maybe' and 可可 is 'chocolate' purely because it sounds like it

[pliant snow]

that character looks like a for sale sign

[prisma flume]

可售 ☀️

[devout vault]

Well you gotta invent time travel first, which seems slightly less achievable than interplanetary flight and living

[pliant snow]

living seems fairly achieveable

[devout vault]

Can't wait for the butter company to expand their business into chocolate for mandarin speaking areas, and their slogan is 可可可 rather than "Maybe it's Maybeline"

[sand frost]

Unless there's new slang I'm not up on it should be 巧克力

but i am severely out of touch with any and all slang

[runic kraken]

my friend finally got pissed off w C# error handling like I did and asked me for my cursed monadic Maybe/Result type library. I plan to clean it up (remove the weird symbols, but keep them as options) and give it to him later

I mean it makes sense when you're working on a 1000+ line project split across multiple files

[devout vault]

Is 1000 considered a lot

[runic kraken]

At 1000 lines I would be wanting a proper exception type too lol

[devout vault]

Proper exception type?

[runic kraken]

Result/Maybe monad

[devout vault]

I don't see what that has to do with exceptions

[runic kraken]

Because its superior

You don't throw, it just returns a value up the chain

[devout vault]

(I don't know what monads are, and haven't used anything in the sorts of languages you talk about it)

(Yes I've looked it up, I never remember)

[runic kraken]

My language I'm designing will rely on them to function

[sand frost]

a monad is...a cat inside a burrito, i think

[runic kraken]

https://hackage-content.haskell.org/package/base-4.22.0.0/docs/Data-Either.html

[devout vault]

But about tacocat?

[sand frost]

i do like tacos better than burritos

[devout vault]

Justice for tacocats and purritos

[sand frost]

but i think the burrito is meant to signify more wrapping

[runic kraken]

I didnt give him any metaphors when I was teaching him programming because I knew he would have hated it, so I just gave him the abstract, and mathematical/computation definition

[sand frost]

casey, on the other hand, loves cats

[devout vault]

A link to the official docs of a language I've never used or even used something of a similar paradigm definitely wouldn't help me 😅

[devout vault]

Guilty as charged

[devout vault]

It sounds like you're saying "objectively superior" when to me it sounds like the sort of thing that's often times preference, and many times simply people misuse one or the other

[runic kraken]

I sent the documentation, you can read how they work

[sand frost]

from a glance at the wikipedia article somehow a monad is like a function returning a tuple <result, success state> and that is chill with being nested

idk no one is obliged to learn haskell

[runic kraken]

It essentially allows you to take a function wrapped in a container and apply it to a value wrapped in a container, and get a new value wrapped in a container back iirc

Its a design pattern and not really one "thing"

Or that may be applicative functor, I get the two mixed up and theyre basically just slightly worse monads

[devout vault]

Docs for a language I've never used and never used anything that has a similar coding paradigm of. Like I said.

I'm not saying I expect you to explain it either - I'm not trying to be entitled to your time or anything. I just don't get how it can be strictly superior always.

Like, people abuse OOP, absolutely. Doesn't mean it is always bad

[sand frost]

unrelatedly my coworker is on the verge of panic buying a table saw

[devout vault]

How come?

[sand frost]

he seems to have been talked down from it

it's cheap

[devout vault]

Yes but why

[runic kraken]

I dont like OOP, at all. Even if I write it in I use classes as purely value data structuress

[sand frost]

who can resist a cheap table saw??

(me, i can resist it, those things are death traps)

it also is like, a yard sale type situation, first come first served, and i feel like the urgency has sort of gotten to him

[cinder karma]

I want a cheap table saw

[devout vault]

I saw a table earlier

It was okay.

[sand frost]

hopefully not a deathtrap table saw

[devout vault]

Nah, just a table that's impossible to keep anything level on. My dad likes weird tables, and I dislike that dining table so much

[sand frost]

shims

put shims under the legs

[devout vault]

~~It's not new, it's been here for years. But we've had weird ones before

[devout vault]

It's not the legs

The surface isn't flat

[sand frost]

oh...

oh no

[devout vault]

It's like gnarled wood

[sand frost]

sneak in with a power sander when he's not looking

[devout vault]

That won't save it

[sand frost]

and a mask, don't want to inhale all that wood dust

[devout vault]

I should go down and grab a snack, picture incoming

Harder to tell without depth perception, so a video instead

Honestly we've had worse ones before

[runic kraken]

Its instinctively unintuitive when your brain operates on the concept of f : A -> B and c : B -> C being morphisms that can be composed to go from A -> C e.g f ∘ g (category-theoretic) to try and handle a world of mutable state and objects with properties that have no mapping in my head

aside from recursion, which i still struggle with I find Haskell/Ocaml as natural as driving a car and Java basically the equivalent of trying to fly a plane blind, while drunk

[pliant snow]

I didn't like OOP, until I found a language that used OOP in a way that felt more natural to how I think about it, and then after that I can use it a lot more effectively

[runic kraken]

OOP is not natural and never will be natural to how i think

I think in terms of categories (sets) and arrows (morphisms) between those sets

[little furnace]

But that seems to be simply a matter of preference. To me, Haskell feels like controlling a helicopter with too many buttons none of which makes sense to me, while Java is... like driving a car. A rusty one. Without servos.

I believe that everything is subjective. There is no truth, because you can't prove that the entire world isn't just your hallucination. Which, admittedly, doesn't fit aphantasia, but you never know.

[runic kraken]

set of animals -> set of canines -> set of domesticated dogs -> dogs -> golden retriever

It is functionally impossible for OOP to ever feel natural to how I think

[little furnace]

But why try working with it then? I'm not wanting to judge you, but you came here a lot to complain about OOP languages and how they feel alien. If they don't make sense to you, that's understandable. But I don't really understand why you keep trying to establish how illogical they are.

[prisma flume]

it makes perfect sense. the usual dog.update(time) loop just handles basic routines like eating poop and slobbering. extended to some GoldenRetriever : Dog though and you're able to call super.update(time) for the usual drooling and barking, but also add in additional behaviours like fetch() calls

[runic kraken]

I dont, I have to use them for certain things though because I need a library in it

[prisma flume]

you can also conveniently override properties like hairLength for higher values but ultimately you can just edit the data in dogs.json

[runic kraken]

It doesnt for someone who has no visual imagery, a dog is just a data set in a subset of a subset of a subset of a subset to me

I asked gemini to give me the equation after describing it and this is the equation it gave me and it is a mapping between sets

[little furnace]

Isn't that also kinda how OOP works? Except that it has a generic template for every set that is based on the respective superset.

[pliant snow]

To be fair, I don't use inheritance very much at all, I like OOP for the encapsulation of variables and methods into a single object

[runic kraken]

No, because theres no inheritance

its a sets connected with arrows (morphisms)

[pliant snow]

OOP doesnt require inheritance

[devout vault]

Pathos has aphantasia

( #making-mods-general message )

Not saying you're lying about it not making sense

Just saying I don't think it's an aphantasia thing, or at least not universally

[runic kraken]

To get to dog I 'mentally' compose f : Animals -> Canines, g : Canines -> Dogs, h : Dogs -> GoldenRetriever to get dog = f . g . h

[runic kraken]

Its unique, but its how I think. I would gain nothing from lying

[devout vault]

I didn't intend to imply you were lying

Simply that I don't think aphantasia = having difficulty with OOP

[runic kraken]

I mean I literally cannot visualize half the garbage objects and keep track of the implicit mutation

[devout vault]

Pathos's code feels more OOP (and enterprisey) than any other code I've ever seen

[runic kraken]

So that by definition makes it a nightmare to work on

[little furnace]

I don't really understand sets yet. I will try to read more into them.

[runic kraken]

I can write OOP, I just fucking hate every second of it

[little furnace]

Which library do you need to use? Maybe there are alternatives?

[runic kraken]

And avoid mutable state wherever possible. I would rather spend 2 hours writing a recursive function or a Maybe type than using a nested for loop or exceptions

[supple ether]

Have you tried wireframing?

[runic kraken]

In my app I am using Avalonia, granted its managable because I dont try to code like enterprise-level

[supple ether]

If you don't want to write oop, why not use a language other than c#?

[runic kraken]

I am forced into using it because there are no good third party cross platform libraries and I refuse to use Electron

If I use GTK it would let me use a language I actually like, but I cannot run it on Windows/Linux/Mac

[supple ether]

Check out slint for rust

[little furnace]

I do strongly recommend against using Avalonia if you don't like using OOP. I've been using Avalonia for quite some time, and you absolutely need to understand C# for it to truly work.

[runic kraken]

I understand C#, I just loathe the language

[supple ether]

Swift is also xplat

[runic kraken]

Granted I either AI autocomplete the bullshit or use a reactive library like CommunityToolkit.Mvvm as a crutch

[little furnace]

I thought GTK was almost universal?

[devout vault]

same

[pliant snow]

packaging GTK is a nightmare

[devout vault]

Probably not helpful here, but is wxwidgets still around? 😛

[runic kraken]

It looks incredibly cursed on Windows last time I tried it

[pliant snow]

I've done it, you basically have to just include the entire damn thing along with your program

[supple ether]

CommunityToolkit is not a crutch, everyone uses libraries for that kind of stuff

[devout vault]

I assume so, since I think Code::Blocks is technically alive

[prisma flume]

against all odds

[little furnace]

Gimp uses GTK.

[supple ether]

Oh there's also qt

[pliant snow]

Qt wasn't half bad last time I tried to compile it for windows

[devout vault]

True

I was ignoring qt

[runic kraken]

I already wrote 100+ lines of code so its honestly not worth rewriting it all

[devout vault]

Yeah but it feels impossible to try and do if you dont' want to register

[supple ether]

Qt, slint, swift

[little furnace]

Everyone in my university hates QT with a passion for some reason.

[devout vault]

(source: I tried to avoid it when working on the tiled PR, but ended up making an account anyways)

[supple ether]

I think react native is mobile only

[pliant snow]

register what

[runic kraken]

QT designer is bad but the QT QML is very nice

[little furnace]

If it's a small app, that's fair, but for a bigger one I'd actually say that it's never too late.

[runic kraken]

QML is purely declarative like Swift UI

[devout vault]

For newer versions of qt I couldn't find a (simple) way to install on windows without registering

[runic kraken]

Its a highly complex paint/drawing engine

[devout vault]

I think one of the windows package managers supposedly handles it? But I couldn't get it working

[pliant snow]

I just did it recently, I'm trying to remember how

[little furnace]

Yeah, okay, forget I said anything.

[runic kraken]

Granted its probably very un-C# code, no weird manager or DI or any "enterprise practices"

[pliant snow]

Oh I just staticly compiled the exe I think

I wrote this four months ago, you would think I would remember how I did this

[devout vault]

Why the heck is their release schedule so slow, but somehow still happening

[pliant snow]

I used PyQt6 with Pyinstaller, which I think is smart enough to pull in both the python and Qt dependencies when it makes the exe

[prisma flume]

but look, it went up by a version every year. now that's progress

[devout vault]

No, after about a week code goes into the indistinct void portion of the brain, and after another it gets ejected from there too

[devout vault]

something something Minecraft's versioning system switch

[pliant snow]

i even had a custom font, man I was feeling fancy

[supple ether]

IIRC slint has bindings for cpp, rust, and python as well

[devout vault]

Deploying a qt app? I struggled with that recently too!

[pliant snow]

for those keeping track, no i havent fixed my networking problems

[prisma flume]

i couldn't tell 🙂‍↕️

[pliant snow]

the jukebox beating will continue until networking improves

[prisma flume]

i've heard of beatboxing but box beating???

[hardy jewel]

bot abuse...

[pliant snow]

the sooner one of you tells me whats wrong with my ethernet settings, the sooner we can all move on

[runic kraken]

        private static readonly Dictionary<string, Func<IBrush>> _factories = new(StringComparer.OrdinalIgnoreCase)
        {
            ["hard-round"] = () => new Brushes.BasicBrush(),
            ["eraser"] = () => new Brushes.EraserBrush(),
        };

        public static Dictionary<string, Func<IBrush>> ImplementationFactories => _factories;

        public static void RegisterImplementation(string key, Func<IBrush> factory)
        {
            _factories[key] = factory;
        }

        private static Func<IBrush> ResolveImplementation(string? key)
        {
            if (string.IsNullOrWhiteSpace(key))
                return () => new Brushes.BasicBrush();

            if (ImplementationFactories.TryGetValue(key, out var factory))
                return factory;

            Debug.WriteLine($"[Loader] WARNING: Unknown implementation '{key}', defaulting to BasicBrush");
            return () => new Brushes.BasicBrush();
        }

on a scale of 1-10 how un-C# is this code, be honest please

This is from LibraryLoader.cs

[prisma flume]

if you're smart like me then you set your router to dsl instead of wireless and then also set your connection to pppoe instead of dynamic ip

and consequently lost hours of your life

[pliant snow]

im trying to be fancy and use vlans

but i cant communicate with my server when devices arent on its vlan

and thats the one device that needs to be contacted from another vlan

[prisma flume]

99% of networking acronyms are not to be looked at or thought of

vlan is no exception

unless you're talking about vlc media player and that's ok

[regal ingot]

thats... the point of vlans? If you want things on two different vlans to talk to each other then something has to route between them.

[pliant snow]

yeah, the router. I opened everything up as a test to make sure things were working, and sure enough all the wifi devices can chat no problems, but the wired one refuses to

[runic kraken]

^

on a scale of 1-10 how un-C# is this code, be honest please

[devout vault]

I'm like 95% sure I've done that sort of thing in my mods before

[pliant snow]

i probably should plug my laptop into the router to see if its just a wired configuration thing but i dont wanna walk over there

[runic kraken]

the entire code is using zero DI, and just manual runtime binding based on morphisms and lazy evaluation

[regal ingot]

huh. apparently wireless is already sort-of always using vlans because that's what SSID does: make a distinct network over the same physical media (since all wifi shares the same spectrum it's the same physical media). So separate (wired) vlans should get mapped to separate SSIDs.

[runic kraken]

Func<IBrush> is a thunk, it stores a function that will execute a result, not execute a function

[devout vault]

I know what it does

[pliant snow]

Yep. But if you leave everything as default, this router will actually route traffic between distinct SSIDs

[devout vault]

Like I said, I'm 95% sure I've done stuff like that before in my mods

And recently, too

[runic kraken]

intresting

[regal ingot]

fascinating. And you assume also between distinct vlans on the wired connection, but you haven't verified it yet?

[devout vault]

(I assume you mean storing Func for creation of things - your fancy terminology is meaningless in my mess of a brain)

I tend to dislike dependency injection, though

[runic kraken]

I store the function, not the result of executing it so i can hot-wire them on the fly

I hate DI, this is basically lazy evaluation

[devout vault]

Yeah, exactly

[runic kraken]

I forced C# to be lazy evaluated so I can inject my own functions at runtime based on an XML file

[pliant snow]

I can communicate with my wired connection if the wireless device is on the same VLAN, but if I move it to SSID 2, then it no longer works. I need to see if that's unique to this particular device or all of them

[devout vault]

C#'s standard library has a thing for lazy evaluation - Lazy<T>

It's hardly forcing it

[runic kraken]

TIL, well my Func<T> thing accomplishes the same

C# is eager by default, so it is pretty weird to lazily evaluate a function result outside of literally hacking mods together afaik

[devout vault]

A really common thing I do similarly is using SMAPI's PerScreen stuff

[runic kraken]

But you are modding a game, this is just a standalone application. Any normal dev would have used DI or something lol

[devout vault]

I'm not sure why you say it's eager by default, when there's literally stuff like shortcircuiting

[runic kraken]

Because it still is eager in 99% of cases, lines execute sequentially

In Haskell line 1 could execute before line 2, or not at all if its not ever needed

Its why you can have infinite lists of numbers

[pliant snow]

I have moved downstairs, time for experiments

[regal ingot]

well, best of luck. The only direct experience I have with vlan is in with wired (or virtually wired) connections, and all the networking hardware I have access to is either way dumber or way smarter than whatever you're using. (Not that I'd really know what to do with the high-end stuff at work, but I'm 100% certain it would support any use case you want to throw at it if you know how to configure it.)

[pliant snow]

oh no

I can connect to my laptop when its wired

so its something about the server

maybe its the 75 docker containers running

[runic kraken]

short circuiting is essentially lazy evaluation for that branch, but the code still sequentially runs in order

[pliant snow]

please dont be the docker containers

or maybe do

[prisma flume]

please be jukebox. it'd be poetic

[pliant snow]

if jukebox is breaking my new router i dont think jukebox will win that fight

[devout vault]

RIP Jukebox, Feb. 2026 - Feb. 2026

[pliant snow]

oh my god its one of the docker containers

let's be honest, it's going to be the one running the VPN, but we can dream it's not

[prisma flume]

i'm still betting on jukebox. the odds are good

[cinder karma]

How many hours do I need for jukebox legend

I will subject you to kpop for that amount of time

[red crest]

at least a couple

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by kittycatcasey as #7377 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1473872657819893790)

[pliant snow]

probably should turn bouncer back on at some point

[devout vault]

...probably

[prisma flume]

at some point

[pliant snow]

those apple bois need to learn their place

[supple ether]

There's also linq

[devout vault]

Apple bois were a secret plan to make more bouncers? 😱

[pliant snow]

I can't wait for it to be none of them, and all I had to do was clean out the crusty docker network connections

[devout trellis]

He tried to silence me

[pliant snow]

get back in your box

[devout trellis]

:pensive:

[pliant snow]

its not the two that i thought might be a problem

[devout vault]

Have you tried jukebox

What if it's a fun case like "not a specific one, but a combination of certain ones interacting/coexisting". Those are always exciting

[pliant snow]

im going in alphabetical order

i have, some would say, too many services

it is not jukebox

it's going to work just fine in the end

[prisma flume]

nooo...

[pliant snow]

you thought you were free

oh could it be syncthing

the last potential candidate

cool everything is back up, I can ssh and it's just what I wanted

wasn't that fun

[cinder karma]

It was syncthing?

[pliant snow]

no, it was nothing

cleaning out the docker network connections seemed to fix it

[devout vault]

Ah, "did you try rebooting it?"

Classic

[pliant snow]

they survive a reboot and probably weren't happy being moved to a new subnet

[hushed raven]

and if that doesn't work, percussive maintenence is also good

[pliant snow]

now that that works, my next task is to immediately disable it

[pliant snow]

oh this is rad

sketchy alarm panel previous owners set up no longer can connect to the internet or anything else, hazzah

[cinder karma]

I actually want to know my jukebox stats :(

[supple ether]

oh man I found a seriously cool-looking minecraft modpack but it's all in chinese

time to learn chinese I guess?

[devout vault]

Well now I'm curious, but alas, I don't know chinese

also I just did a double take about which server I was on

[supple ether]

https://www.mcmod.cn/modpack/784.html

I've been seeing a lot of neat chinese stuff for mc 1.12 in recent years honestly

[devout vault]

What part of "I don't know chinese" did you miss? 😔

[red crest]

Oh that does look quite cool even if I don't understand any of it

[devout vault]

(the FF translate prompt didn't pop up and I'm lazy)

It does

[supple ether]

I don't either I just use page translation

[supple ether]

I dont know why I'm bothering to try and download it when I'm not gonna be able to understand any of the ingame text probably

[devout vault]

Clearly you need to hook up a chinese text recognition algorithm with a translation service on an overlay

[supple ether]

tbh I could probably run the lang files through google translate

although idk if that would affect the questbook

[devout vault]

But that's less fun

You gotta overengineer it

...or a mod that hooks into text rendering

[supple ether]

anyways I found that modpack because of this mod, which is pretty cool, although it has zero documentation right now, and some of the textures could be nicer
https://modrinth.com/mod/neoecoae

[runic kraken]

I am writing some truly unholy levels of cursed C# code and packaging it into a library so I never have to use vanilla C# again in my life

The fact that this builds at all is terrifying considering what I am doing to the language

[supple ether]

cursed how?

[prisma flume]

while we don't actually give out the stats anymore because of insane fomo reasons, you do qualify for jukebox legend. how fortunate for you 🥳

[runic kraken]

public interface Traversable<M> : Functor<M>, Foldable<M>
{
    // traverse :: Applicative f => (a -> f b) -> t a -> f (t b) 
    HKT<F, HKT<M, B>> Traverse<F, A, B>(Func<A, HKT<F, B>> f, HKT<M, A> ma) where F : Applicative<F>;
}

I'll leave you with this snippet

[supple ether]

I'm not sure what any of the referenced types are but that doesn't seem so bad

[runic kraken]

I annihilated its type system and put one in place 400 times more advanced

[runic kraken]

Its emulating Higher Kinded Types, Generics of Generics of Generics

[sand frost]

does atra just have too many titles?

[runic kraken]

This is essentially <A><B><C>

[uncut seal]

damn

[supple ether]

it's got a lot of generics and HKT isn't descriptive but I've definitely had much deeper generic nesting and complex type constraints before

[uncut seal]

Oh I like that

[runic kraken]

This is a Haskell parity type system I injected into C# by using hacks that would make a Rosyln employee cry

https://serokell.io/blog/kinds-and-hkts-in-haskell

[runic kraken]

It is insanely powerful, and insanely cursed

Its a library I'm making but beware, it will make your codebase a nightmare if you don't know how it works. There be dragons, times infinity.

To use a metaphor, I turned a Honda Civic (C#) inside out and stuck a Singularity (HKT) inside of it

The code is incredibly clean, but uses type system level hacks and changing ONE thing without knowing what it does, WILL break it. Not may, WILL

[supple ether]

I would not be so sure about that tbh. F# is first-party, and while it's not on the level of haskell, it diverges pretty significantly from c#

[runic kraken]

This smokes F# type system

F# cannot abstract over generics of generics

[supple ether]

yes I just acknowledged that in the post you are replying to

did you actually read it?

[runic kraken]

I meant cry in the sense of how badly I abused the typesystem

Not that they dont have a functional language

[runic kraken]

@supple ether The programming warcrimes I commited against C# are functional now

using Catnip.Core.Control;
using Catnip.Core.Data;

class MainClass
{
    static readonly Func<string> buildString = () => "Hello world";

    static readonly IO<string> main = from _greet in IO<string>.Pure(buildString())
                                      from _ in ConsoleIO.WriteLine(_greet)
                                      from _prompt in ConsoleIO.WriteLine("What is your name?")
                                      from name in ConsoleIO.ReadLine()
                                      from __ in ConsoleIO.WriteLine(name)
                                      select "Done";

    // Stupid ape-tier wrapper to call our IO monad
    static void Main() => main.Run();
}

[runic kraken]

you can also write it normally using IO<a>, I just hijacked LINQ to act as do notation

[dusty pollen]

ugh some microcontrollers in shenzhenio only having one register is so annoying

even tis-100 has two for every node

[cyan shadow]

https://bsky.app/profile/castpixel.bsky.social/post/3mf52azn5oc2h

Holy shit this is so cool

castpixel ⚧️⚢ (@castpixel.bsky.social)

I made a tool that turns PCB designs into 3D-printable molds. you sandwich copper tape between the parts, sand the ridges, and you have a real working PCB. no etching, no chemicals. I am losing my mind

castpixel.itch.io/pcb-forge

Reposts

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Likes

1277

Bluesky · Feb 18, 2026, 12:09 PM

[hardy jewel]

@feral plume Heya, this channel isn't for Stardew talk

[steel kraken]

hiss

[feral plume]

ok, sorry

[hardy jewel]

all good!

[little furnace]

Are there any smart people here

[prisma flume]

is this a personality test

[little furnace]

Is a lightswitch sentient?

[prisma flume]

is this a multiple choice question

[little furnace]

Nope.

[thin estuary]

gib Steam, i need more Shenzhen-playing friends

[dusty pollen]

mind if I dm? it's been in the channel before but only as screenshots, I don't want to put it as plaintext haha

[thin estuary]

Yup DMs are fine

[little furnace]

Can you also DM me? I need more people in my leaderboards.

[thin estuary]

Or just add me, my profile is public, the ID is just shockah

[cinder karma]

Now so do I get the role....

[cinder karma]

Absolutely not

[dusty pollen]

added!

[dusty pollen]

and dmed

[thin estuary]

Can’t wait to be completely defeated on the later levels

The early ones I’ve optimized to hell

[dusty pollen]

I barely even optimised the early ones lmao

THREE??????

three. how

[thin estuary]

are you reading the emails?

the non-mission ones

looking at the leaderboards, you should already see one of interest

[dusty pollen]

yeah, I'm going to try something from them now

[thin estuary]

Anyway, that mission is the only one I’ve looked up to see how others optimized it, after I was done with it. Apparently 57 power is possible, but jesus, I’m not doing that

[cinder karma]

Is this shenzhen io

[thin estuary]

Yes

[cinder karma]

I'll go friend u eventually

No promises on playing

[long verge]

Is there anyone here using a tiling manager ?
How long did it get you to get used to it ?

[devout vault]

The only type of tiled windows I know about:

gets banned for being on-topic

[crystal wren]

My window manager is tiling.

They all tile on top of each other.

[safe dragon]

As someone who practically never used a window that isn't maximized to begin with, not very long

though I suppose ironically I never really liked the tiling part of tiling window managers. I don't want another window to change size because I spawned an extra one

the original thing I liked was just that it spawned windows maximized by default so I didn't have to deal with programs that for some reason insisted on opening any other way

then I started really appreciating that monitors are given their own individual workspaces instead of having all monitors share the same workspace which made anything without that like KDE or GNOME annoying

and then I found Niri which allows me to have just have maximized windows for everything that I can just scroll between 🙏

[worn remnant]

i'm also currently using niri, although i don't particularly care about tiling or maximizing and i'm still not sure if i'm used to it

the thing that sold me on niri is that workspaces are not statically defined ahead of time, so i can easily create and drop tasks as needed without keeping track or worrying about not having an open spot

so if i want to start a new thing, like editing an image or writing code for a particular project, i just hit a key combo for "new workspace" and i get a new one with nothing on it and i can open whatever stuff i need for that thing. and when i'm done i close them all and navigate away and the now-empty workspace disappears. it's so nice

[safe dragon]

the overview mode was a nice bonus when that got added

[worn remnant]

overview mode my beloved

[safe dragon]

I thankfully read the patch notes at the time and saw the overviw mode was added and made a good keybind for it

and on a laptop touchpad it's just a 4 finger swipe up

honestly niri is the first environment I've ever used where I feel genuinely pretty comfortable only having 1 monitor when using it on my laptop

the touchpad gestures are just really nice

[pliant snow]

I used hyprland off and on, and I personally just dont care for tiling managers

They're neat in theory, but I end up having everything full screen. Plus the WMs are so barebone you either spend ages configuring everything, or just copying someone elses config that I don't really understand, leaving me in a no better place than just using one of the big DEs

[safe dragon]

clearly it's time for you to try niri

😌

[pliant snow]

is it still a hassle to get gtk and qt to agree on their cursors and themes

[safe dragon]

yes

[pliant snow]

excellent

[safe dragon]

just wait till there's actually popular cosmic/iced applications and you have a third thing that needs to be styled the same way

[long verge]

Hmmm

[pliant snow]

I do hear great things about niri scrolling

[safe dragon]

it's practically made for me I am very biased towards niri

[long verge]

I recently tried Hyprland instead of KDE Plasma because I wanted to try a tiling manager but as someone mentioned having a window resized every time I open a new one is slightly annoying me.

[cinder karma]

I should try a new one but it comes straight into the old problem

[long verge]

I really like the customisation tho

[cinder karma]

If I like it I cant get work to adopt it

And I'm like

[safe dragon]

niri looms

[cinder karma]

95% of my computer time is working

[crystal wren]

At that point though, is it not just... a regular DE with maximised windows, but with non-paginated desktops?

[cinder karma]

Hi DH

Same thing with my desire to have a better keyboard

[safe dragon]

you can't spatially organize maximized windows in a regular floating window manager

they're all just underneath each other and you have to alt tab to the right one

[devout vault]

Are they even maximized if they don't take up the whole screen

[safe dragon]

or use the funky taskbar application menu shortcuts

they do take up the whole screen

ignoring the taskbar I suppose

it's not fullscreen, just maximized

[cinder karma]

Tbh I would love a tiling windows manager

Right now I have literally tens of different terminals open

Many with vim in them

[safe dragon]

no tmux?

[cinder karma]

Many with different tabs

[devout vault]

The mac terminal supports tabs. I assume plenty of others do too

Oh

[cinder karma]

I have five or so Cadence windows and I keep losing one of them

[long verge]

What do you need so much terminals for

[long verge]

I’ll try it

[cinder karma]

Crumble I'm old we use screen

[long verge]

Distro hoping ❌
DE hoping ✅

[safe dragon]

ah good ol screen

I used that when I had a minecraft server running on my home server

[cinder karma]

(The real answer is that I often task hop.)

[pliant snow]

screen? We use tmux please

[safe dragon]

(screenshot of the overview mode)
Had to pick some content that didn't dox me. Pretend the file browser is Signal or another messaging app.
I like having "related" application types on the same workspace and then other types of applications on their own workspaces

[cinder karma]

What i really want is someone to yell the cadence windows into submission tbh

[safe dragon]

thankfully I don't even know what cadence is

[long verge]

Easy ChickPea Patties

[devout vault]

Cadence is the protagonist from Crypt of the Necrodancer

(and the zelda spinoff)

[safe dragon]

yeah, they were pretty good

[devout vault]

...honestly it still baffles me how they managed to get a partnership for a crossover game with a main nintendo IP

[safe dragon]

it be like that sometimes

I didn't exactly expect undertale in super smash bros either

[devout vault]

True. Though as neat as that is, I consider a cosmetic DLC of an indie game a tier below an indie dev making an entire crossover game with their own IP, officially

[safe dragon]

understandable

[long verge]

https://tenor.com/view/understandable-have-nice-day-have-a-great-day-have-a-good-day-nice-gif-20850110

[devout vault]

VS 2026 has been updating itself each time I close it lately, and I feel like the solution explorer got changed?

Like it feels like each row has more padding now

Which means I can see less at once

Wait, let me check something

Okay yeah

Here's 2026 right now

And here's 20222, which I think was what 2026 was like a few days ago, unless I just didn't notice this until now

[rain apex]

20222 future tech...

[devout vault]

Can see 7 more entries in 2022

[devout vault]

shoot, my time travel has been exposed

[safe dragon]

I think we need even more padding

[long verge]

2022 looks so much better

[dusty pollen]

why is this microcontroller not waking up from this slx instruction 😭 (shenzhen io, not actual microcontroller )

oh that's not even the issue, it's just freezing on instruction 1 the whateverth time around for some reason

[cinder karma]

If i play the game we need to play "shenzio or irl"

Btw iro this is why I asked u about balatro on mobile

[long verge]

Balance expires ????

[safe dragon]

sorry ur money is temporary

please spend it

ur salary will be returned to the company after 6 months if not spent

[cinder karma]

Oh dear

[thin estuary]

desync between micros?

[dusty pollen]

I fixed it but I can't remember how

[thin estuary]

ah there we go, you beat me in line count

[dusty pollen]

oh right it was that something we mentioned earlier behaves weirdly in the debugger (the puzzle before that one)

[thin estuary]

it does? i have not seen any weird debugger behavior

[dusty pollen]

I was ONE line away from not needing another microcontroller in the one you just mentioned 😭

spoilers -> ||gen visually moves on to the next instruction before it finishes blocking so the next instruction appears to block||

[thin estuary]

ah

i guess i have never debugged that instruction

i just let it rip

and tbh i was having a hard time finding use for it in later levels

i have yet to come back to the extra levels though...

[dusty pollen]

I think debugger is the wrong term, just the visual display haha

[thin estuary]

you know what's the worst moment?

because i needed that second register

actually... maybe i don't...

damn all of this for -1 power, same cost, same line count

[devout vault]

I have been informed there is a setting for this (thanks Pathos): https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/releases/2026/release-notes#february-update-1830

😌

[prisma flume]

so is 2026 worth using, or is it just another cumulative performance cost hike justified by value -added bloatware and ai integrations

[safe dragon]

idk the syntax highlighting has been noticeably slower for me strangely

I've experienced zero positive changes

beyond being the only version that supports .NET 10

[crystal wren]

In my very brief tests of it, it DOES seem a bit smoother?

Emphasis: very brief.

[prisma flume]

it looks like they made it visually in the style of jetbrains. and with ? improvements ?

i place this judgement solely on the image of buffs

[cinder karma]

No, the year 2026 is not worth using

I'm returning it for a second copy of 1999

[prisma flume]

maybe code::blocks had the right idea. live in the past

[crystal wren]

Yeah, JetBrains have gone very rounded with the newest theme stuff as well...

[prisma flume]

how about you copy the visual clarity and comfortable functionality of visual studio CODE you dogs

naefnsaf'

[crystal wren]

And Code::Blocks? Nah, Dev-C++ is where it's at.

[prisma flume]

vscode is such a surprisingly slick and usable ms product (endless ai integrations aside) and i can't figure why they'd want to look at their competitors' homework when they have a perfectly good product right here

honestly no complaints with vscode. does exactly what it needs to do for my job

[devout vault]

The only significant change I've noticed is my beloved dropdown being slow

[prisma flume]

ground-breaking.

[devout vault]

(Seems slightly better at the moment, maybe they fixed it being bad for large files)

[cinder karma]

I loved vscode for Rust tbh

[runic kraken]

I think I am the first person in the world to ever see an error message as cursed as this

[devout vault]

I've definitely seen worse

[runic kraken]

I figured it out though, C# is garbage and has a worse type system than my toy language I wrote 2 years so I needed to introduce another layer of indirection

[devout vault]

Both in the sense of "haha C++ template errors go brrr", and "Type SomeThing is not castable to SomeThing" (or other similar cases when they look equivalent but aren't because of assembly (in the .net sense) manipulation reasons)

[runic kraken]

Hindley-Milner smokes C# in most ways, aside from subtyping and function overloading (which is a stupid habit anyway)

[prisma flume]

logically, we can assume that c# is not garbage, because it would have been collected by now

[devout vault]

so true, blueberry

[safe dragon]

nah there's lingering references

while I don't agree with the things you're trying to do it is kind of fascinating in a way to see you try so hard to turn C# into just a completely different language from entirely different programming paradigm

[runic kraken]

I broke every rule and probably made the clean code guy want to nuclear strike my house but I forcefully put monads into C#

[steel kraken]

to be fair the clean code guy should be ignored at all times anyway

[runic kraken]

Did it mostly for fun and as a challenge. If I can do this the nightmare way in a garbage ape tier language such as C#, I can implement higher kinded types in my own language

[devout vault]

I don't quite understand why you wouldn't just write another .net language, rather than forcing it on C#

Like normally I'd understand because its tons of work to do that, but you're literally already making a programming language

[safe dragon]

and yeah clean code guy is my archnemesis

[runic kraken]

Because I found enjoyment in breaking a type system

[devout vault]

I'm all for doing insane code things because its fun... but that doesn't mean the original system is garbage

[runic kraken]

My language will naturally be able to express * -> * -> *

[runic kraken]

C# is a horrible language that I only use when I'm forced into it

Now I'm not gonna fully use my cursed library, but I can incorporate bits of it to make error handling not feel like the stone age

[safe dragon]

good luck with that

[runic kraken]

wdym

I've basically done it

If someone wants to look at the code, they need to be intelligent enough to know what a monad is so it keeps idiot junior devs away which is a win/win

But I probably won't use it for IO, I just did that for the lols

[terse galleon]

i feel like you could explore this for fun in a way that doesn't insult people and the systems they choose to use/know

[prisma flume]

if those c# users knew what monads were they'd be very upset

[runic kraken]

If you got insulted by me just stating that I don't want junior developers who have no idea what they're doing working on my codebase, that's your decision. I never pointed names

[terse galleon]

alright bye

[steel kraken]

Being different from convention doesn't mean better

[runic kraken]

By definition, this is better because you don't have to have a billion try/catches, it's exactly what rust does

I just implemented the whole shebang for the challenge of it

[steel kraken]

A personal goal I have is to write code a first year student would understand, because good code should be readable.
That, and the code should be troubleshootable at 3am after being waken up by alarms

[runic kraken]

I would never dumb myself down to that ability

If someone can't understand my code, that is on them

[steel kraken]

good luck getting a job then

[prisma flume]

chibiusa would never say that

[dusty pollen]

the best code imo is the kind that reads as being so simple it’s obvious/boring

that way you can see exactly what happens and it’s maintainable

[runic kraken]

This is so simple it's boring. You do the hard math once, and then just pass results around and match on them

If something is Just(5), you extract 5, do something with it and then return a new value

If something is Nothing, you do nothing

[prisma flume]

conceptually simple yes, but readability (and in turn maintainability) is still a pillar of language design

[supple ether]

Gatekeeping as a design philosophy 🤔

[runic kraken]

Ironically I would have to dumb myself down because I operate far above most junior or senior programmers in terms of code understanding

[devout vault]

Someone not knowing what a monad is doesn't make them unintelligent or a junior developer

[prisma flume]

chibiusa would definitely say that

[steel kraken]

I see complexity as a budget.
and you don't want to spend it on the small shit because then you run out before you get to the important parts.
so keeping 80% of the codebase as simple as possible lets you splurge where it matters

[dusty pollen]

oooo I like that

[prisma flume]

i feel like this is just running the boiling-frog scenario on your manager/coworkers

in a good way

[supple ether]

If you have a billion try/catches you are misusing exceptions. By definition they are meant to be exceptional. The c# equivalent of rust's result is the TryGet pattern

[runic kraken]

If I got a job it would probably be working on some cryptocurrency in Haskell or something financial in ML, I'm too far ahead of anything C#/Java

[prisma flume]

why 'if'

[runic kraken]

Because I'm not employed rn, and it's a nightmare to find one

I'm a junior with the skills of a senior because I've self taught myself over the past 12+ years

[dusty pollen]

depends, iirc python believes in “better ask forgiveness than permission” as a pattern 😭

tbh I feel like most of my self teaching was good for writing code but didn’t help me with writing CORPORATE code

[supple ether]

This is not going to help you get a job. Employers value team players above individual skill.

[supple ether]

That's why I mentioned c# specifically

[safe dragon]

just like silicon valley startups

[steel kraken]

Java iirc is still fairly exception heavy, and early C# followed suit, but over the years C# has moved over to patterns like TryGet and other patterns to keep exceptions exceptional due to their performance overhead

[safe dragon]

I made some fried eggs I'm back

[runic kraken]

You could not pay me enough to write Java code

Even for a million dollars I wouldn't do it

[safe dragon]

don't worry, they wouldn't to begin with

[supple ether]

I don't like java but it's still better than retail

[terse galleon]

would you like to sacrifice your pride or your body 🙂‍↕️

[runic kraken]

Now I hate Go, but I can rationalize that as "This language sucks so much that I'll never touch it in my life by choice" and will never ever mix work and hobbies because of this

[dusty pollen]

Please don’t call a category of people idiots, especially a whole category of people who may be in this server.

[safe dragon]

if you treat anyone in that field like they're some inferior intellect creatures that can be disregarded I don't think they would want you as a colleague to begin with

[devout vault]

Yeah exactly.

And a lot of junior/senior/etc. is everything except writing code

[prisma flume]

i see this as a budget, where i sacrifice 20% of my pride to keep 80% of my body

[runic kraken]

alright sorry

[devout vault]

.xkcd 1053

[heavy dagger]

xkcd #1053: Ten Thousand

Published 09 May 2012 | Saying 'what kind of an idiot doesn't know about the Yellowstone supervolcano' is so much more boring than telling someone about the Yellowstone supervolcano for the first time.

[rain apex]

Something i always wondered about functional programming things is the abstraction cost

[prisma flume]

honestly i feel like i'm mostly at my current job because my coworkers apparently find me and my code easy to work with rather than because i'm capable of producing extremely efficient typescript at lightning speed

[safe dragon]

btw. You can be the most advanced ascended programmer that has ever walked this earth but if you can't get along with people at varying skill levels you're not surviving your first year at any job if you even manage to get through the interview

[prisma flume]

specialists are needed for high-performance long-term systems of course, but your average programming job is really closer to stacking shelves with a keyboard

[supple ether]

Lol

[rain apex]

Is it closer or farther away from the things modern cpu architecture is designed for

[dusty pollen]

further!

haskell is NOT very efficient and considered higher level than most imperative and oop languages

[rain apex]

That's my intuition yes, but is it theoretically possible to make a cpu arch that's more functional programming

[supple ether]

I can't hear you over the sound of 300 layers of software

[devout vault]

If you're a 100x rockstar developer you don't need any other coworkers guitar riff

[rain apex]

Or is it just not something one can realistically do

[safe dragon]

well I mean they're not exactly known for high performance to begin with. Immutable programming as a whole is not a concept designed for high performance applications. It's more so designed for correctness where performance is secondary

[runic kraken]

I'll probably end up looking for jobs in Go because I hate the language so much that I'd never be tempted to use it for anything but work, and I could write it while sleep deprived and still write better code than 100% of juniors

[prisma flume]

and my boss especially loves me for onboarding the newbies at the office so you can consider caring for the junior devs a bonus haha

[safe dragon]

golang generics are going to give you nightmares if you don't like C#'s ones

[runic kraken]

Yes that's the point

I want it to be so garbage that I never feel the need to want to use it

So I can purely separate work and hobby

[safe dragon]

we already invented visual basic for applications for that

[runic kraken]

C# is mostly a nice language, it just has annoyances like error handling. Go has zero redeeming qualities

[safe dragon]

now that's a language no one would ever choose to use outside of employment

[prisma flume]

i'm sure we have some vb hobbyists in the woodwork

[rain apex]

Just learn COBOL ez

[runic kraken]

My shitty toy language (before I abandoned it), had generics 3 years before go

[safe dragon]

most things had generics before go. Go effectively added generics out of spite after years of saying they didn't want them

[runic kraken]

Yeah but if a single girl in her room can add generics in a few days, there is no excuse why it took them this long

[safe dragon]

clearly you've never tried to convince a massive corporation worth number of people on a design decision

[runic kraken]

Aside from literal ape tier thinking

[supple ether]

While I understand the allure of placing your own value into your perceived intellect, because it means you aren't vulnerable to others, it will ultimately isolate you. Being kind will get you further in life, and will make you more friends.

[steel kraken]

Javascript was famously made in a week, doesn't mean what they made in that week was good

[runic kraken]

I dont need people to like me, I dont thrive on being a social creature

[rain apex]

Imagine having types when u can just have magic knowledge of what's inside this void * 😌

[supple ether]

If that were true, you wouldn't be in here bragging about your genius

[runic kraken]

Comparing JS to a fully type safe, parametrically polymorphic, hybrid functional language with first class functions, and a Hindley-Milner type system is not the comparison you think it is

[terse galleon]

i never knew this! makes sense from what i've heard about it though lmao

[devout vault]

Often times the actual implementation isn't what makes things take so long

[rain apex]

In the rust thing im on we have to use crate with bunch of unsafe nonsense just to have the ability to load rust to rust dynamic libraries

[runic kraken]

It took me 2 weeks to write that type system and that was my first time doing it

[red crest]

If a conversation can not be had without insulting anyone (present in this channel or sweeping generalization or otherwise), then the conversation is not appropriate here. This reminder goes to everyone here to please keep things civil and polite regardless of who (or what!) they're talking about, or the topic will need to be moved on from.

[runic kraken]

I could probably have the exact same thing done in less time now I understand the math

[safe dragon]

tbh javascript is more so explained by what came after that week. Essentially just them adding random shit from whoever asked for a new feature with little regard for what that meant longterm

[ivory shadow]

What are you talking about JavaScript is a great language. Also 9+'1'-1 is 90. This is perfectly reasonable. /s

[long verge]

It actually make sense

[steel kraken]

Javascript is a fun case study, and the various efforts over the years to tame it, the failed EMCAScript 4 spec which in many ways created ActionScript for Adobe Flash.

[safe dragon]

I actually sent [] == '' to a coleaggue today after he tried to show some weird equality statements

[runic kraken]

I'm just stating facts, not bragging

There is a difference

[runic kraken]

JavaScripts existence makes me sad. We could have had Scheme on the web, instead we got this

[steel kraken]

Javascript much like PHP are the successes they are today because they are accessible

[ivory shadow]

For your next trick tell them how [] == ![]

[supple ether]

That's interesting, does it do the same thing with {}?

[runic kraken]

Accessible ≠ good.

[prisma flume]

trick question. you are ALL object Object

[long verge]

am I a prototype ? ✌️

[ivory shadow]

Not if I have a toString() function I'm not

[devout vault]

Technically correct. Accessible is a subset of what makes 'good' good

[safe dragon]

no cause casting an empty object to a string does not result in ''

[devout vault]

@ junimos blueberry is objectifying me 😢

[safe dragon]

since what javascript does when it is given different types is to just turn both into a string and compare em that way

[devout vault]

I just looked up Scheme. (Heard of it before, never looked into it or at least retained it) Yeah, glad we don't have that for web.

[terse galleon]

i want so badly to react with springobjects.png emoji

[safe dragon]

isn't Scheme a lisp

it do be a lisp

[devout vault]

At first I thought "wait I thought Lisp was the (((((parenthetical))))) one", but

[runic kraken]

When you invent a language that tries to be easy to the point that it becomes illogical, technical correctness matters more than accessibility. I'm not saying Haskell on the web, but we could have had a nice, purely deterministic Scheme

[supple ether]

So here's the real question

[devout vault]

If nobody can get into a restaurant to eat, can you even call it a restaurant?

[supple ether]

If you had to choose between js and python for web scripting, which would you pick

[runic kraken]

People just don't understand the beauty of Homoiconicity.

[rain apex]

[supple ether]

Let's toss lua in there too

[rain apex]

Where do u need it

[runic kraken]

Neither. Both are horrible languages. I would pick Scheme or Typescript

[steel kraken]

Typescript is only useful because it is javascript

[rain apex]

I pick on the grounds that it is just as cursed as js but nicer to read

[safe dragon]

it do be a nice type system

[ivory shadow]

One of these years maybe web assembly won't suck anymore

[devout vault]

A programming language could have every working piece of code a literal groundbreaking literal work of art, and I would not care compared to almost anything else about the language

gotta go get dinner now

[steel kraken]

Or more specifically, Typescript is only useful because it maps down to type agnostic languages which lets typescript types care about the theory and not need to have memory structures as a bottleneck

[long verge]

I once saw someone doing his entire frontend in C. What a chad.

[supple ether]

Like c on wasm?

You'd still need js to interface though

[safe dragon]

https://www.nicbarker.com/clay

[prisma flume]

ah yes, the c family. c, cpp, c#, and css

[runic kraken]

Python has virtually no type system, but more consistent behaviour than JS

JS has the ultimate sin of trying to "guess what you mean" and perform stupid type conversions, so they had to add ===

Typescript on the other hand enforces types, and Scheme is a logically consistent, functional programming language

[terse galleon]

at my workplace (C#) i'd say it's 90% people passing around old code to improve upon/modify, and only 10% actually writing new programs. knowing wtf your coworkers are doing is essential to functioning

[supple ether]

Well my break is ending so I will see you all later

[long verge]

I swear the creator of this is not sane

[ivory shadow]

I was going to say, nothing says efficient like building a separate conflicting layout engine directly on top of an existing layout engine
Edit: Thought I clicked to reply to Crumble's screenshot

[runic kraken]

I pray that if I ever get a job in a language like C# I don't need to deal with stupid abstractions like 3 layer nested manager classes when it could just be a single function

Or DI, don't even get me started on DI

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by kittycatcasey as #7383 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1474175060058308823)

[steel kraken]

and part of that is to use standard conventions and common libraries to maximise odds of common understanding.

[prisma flume]

hey since when were you a c# developer wtf

[dusty pollen]

don’t forget cpython

[prisma flume]

i've missed some lore

c... obol

[safe dragon]

https://crayonlang.org/

an important one

[terse galleon]

no i am a humble admin who they refuse to train on anything else 🙂

i just know from coworkers talking about what they do

[ivory shadow]

caml exists.

I'm working on one called Chord.

The C family truly is vast.

[crystal wren]

Oh.

[steel kraken]

speaking of admin, I'll have to drop off, I have 6 hours of fighting with kubernetes starting in 10min

[safe dragon]

Clojure is my favorite C family language

[crystal wren]

I'll let myself out.

[runic kraken]

Clojure is interesting

Haven't used it much

[safe dragon]

good luck with ur helm charts

[ivory shadow]

They should've called it cubernetes so we could put it on the list of "computer stuff starting with C". They really missed out.

[safe dragon]

it's ok

[prisma flume]

cOMPUTER

[steel kraken]

If it was simply helm charts it wouldn't be 6 hours.

its doing 6 hours of adhoc patches on top of what the helm chart made because different teams and responsibilities

[safe dragon]

but no one has mentioned the most used C family language in the world

Chinese

[ivory shadow]

You win this round... Crumble

[safe dragon]

oh no

[prisma flume]

khlobernetes

[rain apex]

Crumble was an industry plant

[safe dragon]

I've been found out

[cursive sigil]

Hey khloe have you considered changing the spelling of your name

[rain apex]

Furthering schemes of big C

[safe dragon]

working on C-Sharpest to take over the world

[terse galleon]

then we could shorten her name to CCCP! ...oh no

[ivory shadow]

Oh no it's the combined community codec pack

[red crest]

If you just train yourself and then sit down in an empty C# cubicle one day maybe they won't even notice

[rain apex]

Just steal ppl's tickets n do them trust!

[cursive sigil]

No one will know

[terse galleon]

genuinely learning it as a hobby i'm like one day. one day i'll be good enough to bug [coworker] into letting me shadow him

[prisma flume]

be sure to add 'years of experience data modelling in a fast-paced c# environment' to your resume first (doing json in #making-mods)

[steel kraken]

btw as part of troubleshooting I did have to learn some basic cql, so add another c language to your list

[cinder karma]

Y'all have cubicles?

[cursive sigil]

(Hangs out in #programmers-off-topic)

[red crest]

I don't have cubicles

[terse galleon]

• experience troubleshooting
• training junior team members
• out-of-the-box thinking (aka breaking shit)

[steel kraken]

when I first started some others had cubicles but everyone else lost them like 8 months later when we got relocated into the main building

[red crest]

Can I put you down as a reference, bluebs

[prisma flume]

Yes Definitely

[red crest]

Thank You

[runic kraken]

There was actually another C language, C--

[steel kraken]

half of my resume references were people in the dota modding community

[runic kraken]

It was basically used as Haskells intermediate bytecode

[steel kraken]

mainly as they had fancy day jobs in addition to their work in modding

[terse galleon]

i'd actually love to become a trainer because i like teaching people but the only training position we have is for Relativity

[safe dragon]

I've never put a reference on my resume

[red crest]

Like.... the theory of, or

[runic kraken]

https://github.com/takenobu-hs/haskell-ghc-cmm-examples

[terse galleon]

it's a database system

i'm on a contract to the FDIC

very important high level government job trust 🙂‍↕️ /j

[safe dragon]

Relativity, also something closely associated with the constant c

it all comes back to C

[terse galleon]

it's all coming together

[rain apex]

©

[prisma flume]

really i should be programming in B for the brand representation

[terse galleon]

🅱️lueberry when

[steel kraken]

I do remember some people in the early days of minecraft custom development were using D

[safe dragon]

you can only program in a language that either your real name or your most common online username starts with

[ivory shadow]

Gonna make my own language, C**, which is nothing but pointer operations for literally everything and designed for the sole purpose of confusing people.

[safe dragon]

which means Verilog is still in the cards for me

[rain apex]

I use fira code (font) and when u do *** it bunches them up

[steel kraken]

I'd rather not use scala though

[prisma flume]

aha now i know you (checks notes) victoria

[red crest]

... Brainfuck?

[rain apex]

Makes me wonder what language is seriously using 3 asterisks in a row

[safe dragon]

There's Beef if you prefer

[red crest]

I'm trying to cut down on meat

[steel kraken]

I'm open to doing stupid shit in SQL though and abusing stored func to write the application entirely in sql

[prisma flume]

is there some comprehensive list of single-letter programming languages

[ivory shadow]

You've heard of SQL Injection now get ready for: SQL ejection

[prisma flume]

i'm surprised to find E and G

[red crest]

I guess if we go by my full legal username I would also be S. Or if we went by my first real name... I would also be S.

[safe dragon]

well damn

guess you're learning Scheme

[steel kraken]

would probably enjoy sql more than scheme personally

[red crest]

I'm more familiar with SQL let's go with that

[rain apex]

Is it [A-Z] only or do you accept [A-Z][^A-Z]?

[safe dragon]

thankfully thanks to my real name starting with a V I can program in Verse, the fortnite programming language

created by the person who designed haskell

[red crest]

Oh I forgot there's also basic for B, duh. Swift for S, as well, or Scratch...

[safe dragon]

Swift is probably your best bet

[terse galleon]

fascinated by NXC and NQC

[safe dragon]

NQC is an array probably language I think

[steel kraken]

didn't someone write minecraft in scratch

[red crest]

Time to make SMAPI (Swift Modding API)

[safe dragon]

oh it's not

[steel kraken]

though it needed a fancy accelerator runtime for it to actually work

[safe dragon]

wtf

oh I was confusing it with BQN

that's an array programming language

[terse galleon]

you will never fucking guess what NQC redirects to

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lego_Mindstorms

[safe dragon]

that's where programming peaked

[long verge]

no way

it's discontinued

[safe dragon]

I'm jealous of the lucky folks with a name starting with U so they can program in Uiua

is this not the dream

[devout vault]

Truly, the second best language in the C family

[safe dragon]

after Chinese I assume

[devout vault]

despite whatever the heck a reified is support to be

[ivory shadow]

reified is mainly there so I can port Roslyn without putting even more thought into porting Roslyn