programmers-off-topic

[fleet wren]

she could have stayed if she recommended rust smh my head

[safe dragon]

I'll take someone obsessed with graphql over a colleague I had who loved XML

[cinder karma]

I love launching subprocesses via python

I shouldn't admit that

But i do

[safe dragon]

it's ok I support you

[cinder karma]

CP and LS have slightly different understanding of ..

[devout vault]

You would not have been fond of 2012 casey. (ie. the "use my 'fancy' homemade xml parser everywhere I can, even it's a bad choice" era)

(I mean, maybe you're not fond of 2026 casey either for all I know, I'm just saying that I definitely had a uses-xml-too-much era)

[cinder karma]

I'm trying to review an email caught in the spam filter

It is probably spam

Microsoft wont show me the body of the email

Not even as plaintext

[marble jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/its-just-a-phase-ramona-flowers-scott-pilgrim-vs-the-world-gif-25943652

[devout vault]

What a nice hair color

[safe dragon]

it's ok knowing you, you probably had a better xml parser than whatever he created that could only parse xml that no other parser could

[steel kraken]

That functionality is perfectly fine, but sounds like you are just missing a kill switch to be able to cache bust it

Local storage and indexeddb are nicer than cookies if everything is single origin and is only needed client side.

If you are doing cross-origin (but same site) then you are kinda forced into cookies without even more jank that's not worth

[pliant snow]

someday okteta will convert to Qt6

but this is apparently not this day

[rain apex]

This lifetime thing is murdering me i fear

Every cargo b is an adventure

[terse galleon]

promised kitten picture for casey as payment for her help

[cinder karma]

@devout vault kitten

[rain apex]

Is the kitten 'static

[terse galleon]

no he's steven

(idk what 'static is)

[rain apex]

Me neither

I feel like i am in the first 10hrs of hades rn but it will surely get better

[terse galleon]

oh it's a rust thing that makes sense

🦀

[rain apex]

https://tenor.com/view/metal-gear-rising-crab-knife-mg-excelsus-gif-26926901

[cinder karma]

[rain apex]

The rust thing i am confusion about is how do u make a sync iterator from async stream

Don't ask why I need this but i do

[worn remnant]

crab rocket

[rain apex]

That's deep

Atra tossing down an entire 🫀 to me the feral chu down in the pit

[cinder karma]

My hands are shaking because I got off work late and have not eaten dinner yet

[rain apex]

We can share the 🫀 then

You know I used to eat a lot of chicken hearts but I don't see them very often over here now

It's probably for the best considering the cholesterol

[sand frost]

You can sometimes find them in the frozen section

But sometimes only mixed with gizzards

Eating a whole package of chicken hearts was definitely my “weird roommate habit”

My roommates thought this was gnarly

[prisma flume]

definitely more than my roommate's unusual craving for duck beaks

[cinder karma]

Is your roomie a cat

[prisma flume]

basically yeah

[uncut seal]

my return to LaTeX is not going well

seems like it was because the doc was empty...

[sand frost]

If you use Overleaf it gives hints like that, otherwise I think latex error messages are decent at communicating once you get the hang of them

[cinder karma]

What is invariant in life

Other than death, taxes, and having to santize strings for the filesystem

[cinder karma]

Because the T mobile app needs an AI assistant?

Ugh

Also the deals are bad

[prisma flume]

it has UI, so it has AI

[safe dragon]

UI, UX and AI

the standard trio

[cinder karma]

Apparently Harvard dropouts are trying to use AI to design chips

[safe dragon]

specifically only harvard dropouts

[pliant snow]

People who drop out from other schools arent allowed

[safe dragon]

nope

if you drop out of yale, better find something else

[devout vault]

What if I dropped out of <generic state college>

[safe dragon]

regular job and watch from the sidelines

[cinder karma]

Well, yes

Harvard dropouts specifically are known for nonsense

Same with Stanford dropouts

[rain apex]

It is day 2 of me vs rust lifetimes

I am trying to figure out how to get two Rc<RefCell<thing>> where one's lifetime depends on the other somehow

[cinder karma]

Good luck!

[rain apex]

I feel like the #lost-rustaceans tag in the description is false advertisement

But yeah i am almost certainly doing something super cursed for api reason here

Instead of fun mod crimes reasons alas

[fleet wren]

I would offer to help but unfortunately ever since I enter the great wheel of capitalism I mostly stopped coding for fun (outside of SDV mods) and my Rust skill has become... rusty

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6977 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1460775277977407656)

[rain apex]

Oh yeah the capitalists are the ones forcing me to do this

[cinder karma]

We love the capitalists

[rain apex]

They strapped me to the crabrocket

[cinder karma]

I think i ran into this too at some point wrt lifetimes and refcell being a painnn

[fleet wren]

stares at the pile of legacy C++ code my overlords saddled me with

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6978 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1460775564280463517)

[cinder karma]

Unfortunately I dont recall which discord I bitched in

[rain apex]

Honestly i think it just goes back to streams being stupid

I have gotten this far not having to put anything on the heap and now that i do have to do that it is big jank

[cinder karma]

How

You're using streams and nothing is on the heap?

[rain apex]

Well yeah that's the hard part right

Or hm, i guess Box and Rc RefCell are different kinds of stuff goes on heap?

I do wonder if i am bang head against something that's just actually illegal forever and I'm not crab enough to understand yet

[cinder karma]

I'm not 🦀 enough to understand either tbh

[rain apex]

The ??? mainly comes from the part where I have a existing Rc RefCell which I wish to mutably use to open a BoxStream

But apparently borrowing as mut doesn't work for this cus the borrow is dropped after stream is open (but it literally holds the stream itself???)

[cinder karma]

What are you borrowing as mut

[rain apex]

The existing Rc RefCell

Which is a struct for holding all the stuff that should be kept alive for the stream to exist

I just dont know how to express to rust that this is what's happening

I can see how i might just give up and be like fuck it no streams for u here's a vec take it or leave it

But ideally we use a stream for memory reasons

[cinder karma]

What is the rc refcell holding

[rain apex]

This thingy

Specifically tho it's a database connection

So it is stream of rows from the query made

[cinder karma]

Makes sense

Ish

[rain apex]

Anyways it is time to continue the ????

[cinder karma]

Here's the thing. Refcell is a decision to push borrow checking to runtime

[rain apex]

Hmmmm

I have some no ref cel crime ideas maybe i can just big closure

[devout vault]

pathfinder literally-almost-everything-except-Rust fixes this

[rain apex]

Yeah well they pay me to hit me head against this particular wall and so i shall

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by kittycatcasey as #6979 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1460782399410671626)

[rain apex]

I may be complaining but this is interesting enough to share on a programmer discord than the usual work so it's kinda nice

[devout vault]

I really need to get my crab repellant restocked

[cinder karma]

Alright! I can turn the conversation back to mortgage rates and taxes

[cinder karma]

So how goes code.

[rain apex]

idk i gave up on heap shenanigans for just a callback and now the code compiles perhaps

[dusty pollen]

I finally set up my second monitor. it's so much larger than my first one

windows settings shows them like this

I wonder what stardew is like on a vertical monitor

gemini I'm pretty sure 768p is actually larger than 720p

[marble jewel]

You can't expect AI to be good at complicated math like... checks notes... 768 > 720

[safe dragon]

language machine with no concept of numbers strikes again

[dusty pollen]

I’ve given up on explaining to people the concept of “just because it’s a computer doesn’t mean it can do maths”

[safe dragon]

I mean the computer can absolutely do math

LLMs are technically doing an enormous amount of math...

[worn remnant]

math is actually the one thing computers do

[rain apex]

Doing all this crazy math just to simulate person bad at math

[devout vault]

I too learned about OOP from a kids website forum

(Roblox + Lua. Okay you can argue about lua being OOP, but that ruins the joke, so hush.)

[dusty pollen]

and we found a way to make them bad at it! we’re so smart

[devout vault]

If I can be bad at the one thing I'm good at, I'm fine with making that the case for dumb tech trends too

Peak chatbot was the old subreddit simulator that used markov chains

[fleet wren]

markov chain chatbots sound downright lucid compared to the braindead generic prose that every LLMs use nowadays

take a shot every time you see "it's not <X>, it's <Y>" in an LLM post (emdash optional)

I unfortunately still frequent social media-adjacent spaces, and I can see ChatGPT writing a mile away

[devout vault]

Maybe in the best cases of markov chains, but I much prefer the glorious nonsense cases

[fleet wren]

markov chain chatbots sound like a drunk person whose blood is 70% alcohol ranting about one of their hyperfixations
modern LLMs sound like a customer service representative who underwent company-mandated facial surgery to fix their face into a permanent smile

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by kittycatcasey as #6984 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1461037138652041453)

[devout vault]

which is why markov chain chatbots are so much funner

dumb idea time: a game that uses LLMs for NPCs normally, but becomes markov chain-based once the NPCs become drunk

[cinder karma]

I love python

(Yes, ast is involved again)

[rain apex]

Snek is my favorite embedded language

[cinder karma]

I love how i can just @cache and get myself out of a bunch of problems

"Your code is so slow" "sure okay lookup table gooo"

[thin estuary]

so, apparently Windows Defender has a false positive and suddenly starts flagging a lot of .NET-based projects as PUAMiner:Win32/RedbyrepMiner

[devout vault]

I had that happen with a godot test project recently that been working fine on a previous day

[thin estuary]

flagged the game i'm modding nowadays; also flagged my yesterday's mod update for it; ALSO flagged a Stardew mod i didn't touch in 2 years

[devout vault]

Different type of virus, but did have .NET. However the changed code compared to before was actually gdscript (since I was just trying to test how to do something before making it into a proper solution)

[thin estuary]

it's the first time i've seen this Steam alert

not on my machine though, it's from someone else

for whatever reason it's all good on my machine

and yet i've seen 3 separate reports of the game getting flagged, a ping that my Cobalt Core mod got flagged, and a Nexus post that my Stardew mod got flagged lol

[cinder karma]

okay, sre_parse is great

(Debugging regexes again)

[cinder karma]

Y'alll, look up the python library PLY

That's fucking insannnneeeee

Using the docstring to build a tokenizer lol

[safe dragon]

shame you found out about it less than a month after it ceased development

after it existed for 25 years

PLY was originally created in 2001 to support an Introduction to Compilers course at the University of Chicago. As such, it has almost no features other than the core LALR(1) parsing algorithm. This is by design--students should be made to suffer.

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6985 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1461109560478793779)

[cinder karma]

Damn that's older than 95% of the server

[marble jewel]

This is how you know you've made it. You're getting SMAPI levels of unwanted attention.

[steel kraken]

That error seems similar to one report of content patcher getting hit (not smapi) where smapi trying to load the cp DLL failed

[devout vault]

"Firefox sure is acting weird today, is it time to restart?"
watches task manager, and sees it jump back and forth between 6 GB and 8 GB ram used over and over within a span of a few seconds, despite not actively doing anything on it
"...yeah, perhaps it is time for a restart"

(also featuring: 28 GB of RAM used despite only two programs having over 500 MB of RAM used)

…I should’ve checked my uptime before I turned it off

[steel kraken]

every now and then I do forget that python is ~4 years older than java

[cinder karma]

I now have a button on outlook that purports to summarize emails

It does not work

[devout vault]

Like, it does nothing?

I’d prefer that over most AI integrations

Only surpassed by “uninstalls itself”

No I don’t want notepad to turn my SMAPI log into a poem.

No I don’t want… whatever the integration in MS paint does

[lethal walrus]

emulating microsoft fingerprinting is horrifying because it shows how much they collect

[dusty pollen]

it's what

[lethal walrus]

i second that it's what

[steel kraken]

The public release of python is 1991 with the actual 1.0 being 1994, javas first public release is 1995 with JDK 1.0 being 1996

[dusty pollen]

huh. python is also six years older than me

[steel kraken]

And C# has its public release of 2002 being a decade younger than python

Though much of C# history starts from Visual J++ which was late 1996

[cyan shadow]

... I'm older than C# in its current form

[steel kraken]

J++ and by extension msjvm was an interesting read from a historical standpoint as one of the main features they added was callbacks and delegates for event handling which is a core c# feature

[dusty pollen]

no type unions in C# yet :( now I'm sad

[cinder karma]

So am I!

[safe dragon]

should be next release...

[cinder karma]

Ooo

Crumble, you have a cat

Thus you have cat pictures

[safe dragon]

technically I don't have a cat

but my mom does and I visit regularly

they also visit me a few times a year

(she wanted food)

[dusty pollen]

-# cat, standing on a pile of posters saying "CONSUMEN", looking at you intently: yes please I would like to consume food

[cinder karma]

Cutie

[devout vault]

Have you considered: code crimes

[safe dragon]

(it says consument aka consumer in Dutch)

it's also a magazine smh

[devout vault]

brb building latest gcc

(jk I'm not insane)

[rain apex]

Wow a tortoise shell i never seen one irl b4

[safe dragon]

rust also added experimental reflection support like a week ago or something

not in stable yet of course

[devout vault]

Well yeah, but have you considered: hisssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssssss

[fleet wren]

rust you say

[rain apex]

Wtf does reflection mean in rust

[cinder karma]

A Mirror for Rust: Compile-Time Reflection Report - Shepherd's Oasis https://share.google/JZEk9FWRoSpfTGFJo

[safe dragon]

ability get information and access data/trait methods based on using its TypeId

[cinder karma]

Is it compile time or runtime

[safe dragon]

should be compile time

I think?

[cinder karma]

If i was a gambler I would gamble on that

[safe dragon]

https://github.com/rust-lang/rust/pull/146923

it's funny looking at these PR and just seeing a bunch of people I know from the bevy game engine

especially bushrat who is generally responsibile for a lot of crates being available with no_std

[safe dragon]

not my favorite unicorn

github is very slow and unreliable rn

definitely compile time

[devout vault]

Matt was having issues with github earlier, too

[worn remnant]

oh here i thought they were having wacky cdn problems because i renamed a repo and immediately started unicorning on it

[cinder karma]

Have they been vibe coding again

[worn remnant]

probably, knowing microsoft

[cinder karma]

Casey you're absolutely insane enough to go build gcc from source

[devout vault]

Not without a "good" (even if largely brought about by hyperfixation and "why not?") reason

[cinder karma]

Meanwhile my empty little brain is trying to figure out what the heck i should do with actual paper ibonds

[devout vault]

I'm still not sure what those are

[cinder karma]

Bonds that have their interest rate indexed to inflation

The issue is that I have these very useful bonds as actual sheets of paper and I would like them to be electronic and I'm not sure how the best way to do that

1. Sell and rebuy....is a taxable event
2. Mail them to the federal government and hope that works?

[safe dragon]

idk good luck with that

[rain apex]

Yeah that's the part that confuses me if the reflection is compile time then what's the point

[devout vault]

Not sure about rust, but think something like source generators

I would use compile time reflection to automatically bind my code to a scripting engine, for example

[supple ether]

I did consider doing something like that for a c# project to eliminate the overhead of runtime reflection

[rain apex]

Rust has that tho it's just macros

[devout vault]

Yeah, there's some stuff I'm working on stuff too on-topic to mention here for similar reasons (though the current approach is more "hand writing it each time" which as you might expect is rather bug prone)

[rain apex]

Or proc macros if u are feeling particularly crustacean

[devout vault]

But it has some other benefits besides removing runtime overhead, in this case

[supple ether]

Source generators are great until you have to actually write them /jk

[rain apex]

I often wish C# just let me make C macros

[devout vault]

True. I assume the thing that lets you live view the Roslyn code structure of a document helps, but I haven’t tried it yet

[devout vault]

I have wished for this many times. Mostly pre source generators (and pre me knowing c# as well)

[rain apex]

Like i know i want to write a bunch of similar in terms of actual code text 10 times

Pls just let me macro that :u

[devout vault]

Source generators also explode in complexity much faster when you want to do complex things for it

Like if you just look for an attribute and generate a class with no other info? Pretty easy

[supple ether]

That's very helpful for sure, but the real issue is just... having to transform syntactical structures back into text, while accounting for all the different possible variations of a thing, like access modifiers, generics, static vs instance, etc etc

[fleet wren]

c# has an eval like thing right

[devout vault]

Ah. Most of the stuff I’ve done hasn’t needed that, beyond names (like namespace vs not)

[rain apex]

whatever console code uses probably but that defeats the resolve at compile time point

[devout vault]

Sorta kinda, like Console Code? But it basically just leaves an assembly loaded even after use, I think

[supple ether]

And then there's things that seem simple, like extracting arguments from attributes, but then you realize that const expressions are still expressions when you get them, and as far as I can tell there's no built-in way to evaluate them

[devout vault]

Yeah, that’s is immensely painful

Did some stuff with that with the too on topic thing I mentioned

[rain apex]

Rust (non-proc) macros aren't quite as whatever goes as C macros but I'd still die without it since everything in rust is hella wordy

[devout vault]

.s/a wordy//

[rain apex]

I think it's neat but i am fairly sure I'm the only one on my whole team who thinks this

[supple ether]

I think the concept is interesting, but it feels like you have to do almost everything yourself, and non-hierarchical graph structures just don't play nicely with the whole concept of the borrow checker, unless your particular application works well with arena allocation

[rain apex]

Well the last work thing i was on is C so i feel like I don't have to do everything myself anymore

Perspective

[supple ether]

I would never use C, it sounds deeply unpleasant

[cinder karma]

It's a sidestep around the orphan rule iirc

[safe dragon]

that's definitely a part of it

not having to decorate every struct in your entire codebase with some #[derive(Reflect)] thing is also nice

also of course no newtyping necessary to do it on structs outside your project scope

newtyping is one of the worst parts of rust

basically every damn data handling related crate has to end up putting some newtyped version of uuid behind a feature flag to implement their own traits for it

[devout vault]

I would certainly use it if Rust was the only other option

[supple ether]

If rust and c were my only options I would just get a different hobby

[cinder karma]

Really

[safe dragon]

[devout vault]

I mean

Maybe same, depending on the context

Stardew modding? Absolutely, unless we had a decomp or something I guess

[rain apex]

I feel like there's still nothing out there that can replace C though

[devout vault]

Arduino stuff but the C++ broke? Eh, not like I could use something much nicer like C# anyways

[cinder karma]

My dishwasher dreams?

[rain apex]

Rust is more of a C++ alternate

[safe dragon]

there's plenty that try

[fleet wren]

zig's pretty good

[safe dragon]

there's stuff like Odin as well

[devout vault]

I would use any of the other C++ alternatives I've seen instead

[cinder karma]

Zig looks fun

[devout vault]

Admittedly I've not seen many

[cinder karma]

I dont think c looks that bad....

[rain apex]

Casey what is ur personal history with rust is there any specific incident or just general animosity (which is valid)

I still think rust is ugly (literal)

[safe dragon]

Odin confuses me cause it went for the baffling choice to not have any package management system whatsoever

there just isn't one

[rain apex]

I mean it's not like C has one

[safe dragon]

people have made them for C at least

[cinder karma]

You pretty much have to be labview for me to be very sad at you

[devout vault]

Basically this. And hearing about borrow checker nonsense

[safe dragon]

I guess you can probably use C's shit with Odin too

[devout vault]

I technically poked at it a little, for super smash bros 4 (or was it ultimate? ) modding

Early days of it at least. The code mods used rust

[devout vault]

Standard-mandated NIH syndrome

[cinder karma]

Well, otoh, I looked at modding in general and went "maybe I do want another hobby instead" lol

Nih?

National institute of health?

[devout vault]

Not invented here

[safe dragon]

hey Odin ships with the entirety of Raylib in the standard library tho

[cinder karma]

What's odin

[devout vault]

ie. the times casey made her own XML and zip parsers because she didn't like the APIs of the ones she found, quite literally over a decade ago

[safe dragon]

a programming language

[rain apex]

I think people would hate the borrow checker less if the default was pass by ref

[devout vault]

(I was just talking about NIH stuff in DMs with someone too, weird timing)

[safe dragon]

Odin wants to be C but "sensibly designed"

[devout vault]

I'd hate the idea less if it could be turned off, like C# nullable

[rain apex]

Idk why it's always wanting to clone

[devout vault]

My frameworks audio is acting weird again

[cinder karma]

That looks like game dev stuff

[safe dragon]

turning off the borrow checker is called putting it inside an unsafe block

[devout vault]

The audio suddenly went really quiet - going from 30% to 100% was still quieter than before

Paused the video I was watching to debug, then chatted here a bit

[rain apex]

Or rather designing the language in a way that the default isn't the path of more memory used

[devout vault]

Started video back up, suddenly its loud (because I was at 100% still)

[cinder karma]

Eh

[safe dragon]

considering the borrow checker is basically a fundamental core aspect of rust's entire design... Being able to turn it off (ignoring unsafe blocks) would make no sense

[cinder karma]

I have a love hate relationship with rust verbosity

The only part of the language I hate is when I have to explicitly handle lifetimes tbh

But it's not for everyone

[devout vault]

Ah, so what you're saying is Rust is irredeemable. You know what, fair, I believe that

[safe dragon]

lifetimes are annoying yeah

[rain apex]

Yeah that was the thing i was ??? about

[cinder karma]

Anyways

Whatever

No one is holding a gun up to your head making u use rust

Let's change the topic

[rain apex]

Atra what languages does the overlords make you use

Is it still systemverilog

[safe dragon]

functional programming is about cloning everything always every time

that's the real fun stuff

[cinder karma]

It's systemverilog yeah

Or verilogams.

[rain apex]

Tragic

[cinder karma]

But I get to orchestra with python

It's fine! What else would u use?

[devout vault]

That's what they want you to think

[safe dragon]

now that's a language I don't like

[devout vault]

I mean I mentioned everybody's other favorite topic (framework laptops), but nobody took the bait

[fleet wren]

-# i still think ppl should really consider zig if they want to code in a modern low level performant language that isnt rust

[cinder karma]

I want to try zig some day

[safe dragon]

that's usually what people recommend yeah

[rain apex]

You see i am like a vampire but instead of garlic im weak to anything too close to hardware /lh

[cinder karma]

But I'm also like.. c would be grand. I could divide then.

[safe dragon]

incredible feature

the division operator

[cinder karma]

No floating point no division we die like men

[safe dragon]

tbh idk how hardware description languages even function

[cinder karma]

Lol

[rain apex]

Oh no those r fine

But if u want me to know what a register is i melt

[devout vault]

https://tenor.com/view/thats-the-joke-ranier-wolfcastle-mc-bain-the-simpsons-stand-up-comedy-gif-4372917

[rain apex]

One of the problems i never solved in last project is how to read a float in a kernel module

[devout vault]

I almost put registers and interrupts, but I realized that would be accurate, which means it wouldn't fit that meme

[rain apex]

Ah yeah reading comprehension on my part oops

[devout vault]

meme culture comprehension, to be fair

[rain apex]

I still have no idea if i was dumb for not figuring out or dumb for trying at all

[terse galleon]

i asked my CS college friend recently if he knew C# and he went no i swore off low level languages years ago lmao

[devout vault]

C# can be low level

It's painful, but you can do it

[terse galleon]

i think he’s just a bit of a snob tbh 😂 i love him but i don’t understand him

[devout vault]

I might've misread your message

But also, maybe he confused it with C++

[terse galleon]

perhaps ¯_(ツ)_/¯

i think he found a different job anyway which is good

[safe dragon]

a colleague of mine keeps thinking I'm programming in C instead of C# and I've given up on explaining those are incredibly different things

to him anything further than Python is low level though

(he's a data engineer)

[devout vault]

Oh boy, I love being unable to open the app that manages graphics card drivers without upgrading to the new app (which probably has new, bold, previously-unthought-of bugs)

[safe dragon]

you can also just download the drivers from the website

[devout vault]

Pressing X asks if I'm sure I want to cancel, and saying yes and reopening it brings me to the same screen

[cinder karma]

Odin does seem of interest except for the part where it is tied heavily to video game

Odin: A programming language made for me | Karl Zylinski https://share.google/WQY6gXFKb6M03LJRv

[devout vault]

Yes, but this the real reason I'm opening the app

[safe dragon]

[devout vault]

(that's from virtual desktop)

[cinder karma]

Zii is an interesting concept

[devout vault]

(I didn't turn on the overlay, I don't know how it got turned on)

[safe dragon]

didn't they change to the new Nvidia app years ago

[devout vault]

(this error wasn't there last time I rebooted)

They moved on from Geforce Experience that long ago?

[safe dragon]

I think so

[devout vault]

I guess that makes it slightly more reasonable to have mandatory upgrades. Only slightly though

[cinder karma]

I get very mad when my work laptop has stuff i can't uninstall

[safe dragon]

was a year ago apparently

[devout vault]

<flashbacks to it wanting me to sign in for the Adobe uninstaller, and then using an alternate official one which required agreeing to a TOS, and then it not even removing everything properly>

[safe dragon]

I have admin permissions on my laptop but there's something funky about it where sometimes the confirmation thing requires IT approval anyway

I've had like 2 programs I installed just fine but now I'm not allowed to uninstall them

[fleet wren]

every modern low level language aside from rust and zig is made by game programmers

[devout vault]

Another one I've heard about (Beef) falls into the "for game programmers" category as well

[cinder karma]

Lol

[fleet wren]

and Jai, but we don't talk about Jai

[cinder karma]

Waht about ocaml

I guess not low levl

Also 1996

I need to learn Julia

[safe dragon]

also Carbon which they themselves basically just consider a language for easier migration away from C++

what else exists

Pascal I suppose

Swift maybe

[steel kraken]

Basic/purebasic is still a thing, there was D at some point

[cinder karma]

Swift i dont think is low level

[steel kraken]

to be fair I think the traditional definition has C being high level

[cinder karma]

If it isnt intel microcode dont talk to me

[prisma flume]

this whole house of cards is just one long scale from C to scratch

[safe dragon]

tbh it goes beyond scratch

no-code environments

which almost always still actually have some kind of scripting so really it's false advertising

[steel kraken]

they generally advertise as low-no code

[cinder karma]

Upsetting. Our new time card software requires text message 2fa and it doesnt work

Who the fuck would impersonation me to submit my timecard

[safe dragon]

me

[little furnace]

Text message and security is an oxymoron, isn't it?

If it uses SMS, I mean. I don't think any 2FA provider supports RCS though.

[cinder karma]

In this case I dispute the necessity of the security

Who the fick is gonna impersonation me to submit my timecard???

[rain apex]

Isn't the time card the 2nd factor

Are u physically going in office or is this some weird remote timecard business

[little furnace]

Considering it's about financial stuff, I honestly think it's good. We need to abandon passwords, better do it properly. At my workplace they tried to give everyone a Fido key.

[rain apex]

Why is it "tried"

[cinder karma]

We all have fido keys!

[little furnace]

Because money and too many people that don't actually need one (at least for now, the plan to abandon passwords still stands). Only IT and management got them.

[little furnace]

Why does the software not use that then? Seems like a wasted opportunity.

[rain apex]

I always wondered about the relative tier of secureness of a authenticator app

The ones that give u 6 numbers I mean

[cinder karma]

Cuz is a third party system

I'm more annoyed that it doesnt work....I haven't gotten my 2fa text yet lol

[little furnace]

It's pretty secure compared to passwords. It's basically just a super long extra password.

[cinder karma]

Again, it's simply a form where I tell them how many hours I worked

[rain apex]

What makes the 6 digits super long (genuine question i know nothing about this)

[cinder karma]

I'm exempt anyways

So it should not matter

[little furnace]

You actually store a super long password. The 6 digits is a code that is generated using a deterministic function that also takes the current time as input. The server checks whether it gets the same result.

[rain apex]

Hm does my phone know about the hash function

Or is it also seaver side

[little furnace]

It does, that's why it works offline.

[rain apex]

Is fido key also a super long password

Maybe a super duper long one that's hashed into merely super long

[devout vault]

Huh, I always wondered how those work.

Doesn't that mean someone who got access to your "super long password" even just temporarily could generate a code for themself to use in the future? (even if it'd be a limited time frame)

[little furnace]

Probably an even longer one. I honestly don't know how long. As long as a private SSL key? Probably not.

[little furnace]

Yes, absolutely. That's why it sets up a new key for every app you add, so that you can remove them if one causes trouble. It's basically a token.

[steel kraken]

timed one time password/pin (TOTP)'s main advantage is being a second factor to be evidence for "what you have"

its actually backed by a more complex shared secret (HMAC-SHA-1 by spec) and mutually agreed start time between the authenticator app and the service, which then both run the algorithm to generate the output and you providing that output from the authenticator to the service helps prove you have physical access to that shared secret without exposing that secret.

fido key is similar-ish, but rather than being a symmetric secret is assymetric cryptography where the private key is stored in the secure storage of the fido device, and the service only has the public key, and rather than the pin/output which in totp is just using time as an input, the service generates some random data (Challenge) and sends it to the user which will then have that private key sign it and send it back.

and anything encrypted by a private key can only be decrypted by the public key*, so the service can decrypt it thus proving possession of the private key.

fido/passkeys are a more secure design particularly with all the safety rails surrounding it (extra metadata is stored about which origin/app requested it and will only let the correct service even attempt to authenticate so its phishing resistant), but does require connectivity between the user device and the authenticator device for the flow to work as data needs to go from the service to the authenticator and back via the user device.

timed one time password from an authenticator can be air gapped, as the human reading the output can then input it on the other side as no information needs to go to the authenticator making it a lot easier to deploy, though as time is the important input and clocks are a surprisingly hard to keep in sync, services generally will accept multiple outputs to account for a user device drifting.

[cinder karma]

Interestingly enough, Audible no longer uses the Google Pay payment scheme

I guess they didnt want to give big G their cut lol

[steel kraken]

I don't really know of any devs that actively wants to use in app payments in favor of rolling their own if they have the infra setup for it anyway for web.
they just have previously needed to as part of appstore/playstore policies that have been changed as part of the recent batch of anti-trust activities in various regions

[cinder karma]

It's great except now where do I use this $3 of Google play credit smh

[cinder karma]

I know you don't mean it like this but it does seem like you're suggesting that is where I put the $3 of Google play credit

[devout vault]

Nah, it's slightly too expensive for that

[safe dragon]

a shame

[cinder karma]

It's a dollar more if you dont have nitro lol

[fleet wren]

waow... paying more money so you can pay less money

[devout vault]

Yeah. Unfortunately even with the discount, there’s nothing that only costs $3 😛 (at least that I saw off hand)

[uncut seal]

I'm pretty sure there are ways to mod that in

[devout vault]

Assuming you mean what I think you mean, even ignoring tos stuff, that wouldn't be visible to anyone else (which is probably a big part of why people buy it to begin with)

https://mropert.github.io/2026/01/15/designed_initializers/

C++ finally has this? One day, it might be close to as painless as C#

(But not really, because even if templates are more powerful than generics, they are incredibly painful as well)

[fleet wren]

that's only C++20? i thought it's way older lol

I am annoyed by the strict ordering

but yeah it's convenient

[cinder karma]

Smh

[tired smelt]

Hey guys, do you recommend any specific IDE for rust in linux or vim it’s okay?

[pliant snow]

It depends what you're familiar with, Vim is perfectly usable

[rain apex]

as long as u can get rust-analyzer working anything is fine

[fleet wren]

i use vim btw

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #7004 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1461902338720530681)

[lethal walrus]

I don't use vim, rust or arch btw

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #7005 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1461938606716223659)

[crystal wren]

DISCORD, NO.

[safe dragon]

too late I got the money

[crystal wren]

Well, the fact it didn't catch this one is actually helpful to know at least.

It means the slight syntax problem specific to Rust's regex engine (that the checker Discord themselves link to suggest doesn't even point out) wasn't the cause of it missing some of them randomly.

[cyan shadow]

👀

[edgy lion]

What happened this time?

[safe dragon]

Just another scam post that didn't get caught by discord's automod

[crystal wren]

Despite, again, the text being a perfect match for said regex which didn't catch it. Fun times!

[marble jewel]

Discord may not catch every spammer/bot, but at least they issue 2 year bans to people linking to mods /s

[safe dragon]

🙏

[devout vault]

yeah but they have this, so it balances out

[cinder karma]

They also have this

https://share.google/9AAalZramWj1R4Nwk

[supple ether]

I saw that yesterday and was wondering about it

Seems genuinely useful

[safe dragon]

fine I will click the shady google share link

huh, neat

need to start putting ur links through a tracing tool to figure out if I'm not downloading malware smh

[pliant snow]

aquova.net would never serve you malware, there is no need to check

[safe dragon]

I trust your website completely

if it told me to download an executable and run it locally I would do it on the spot

[pliant snow]

I've actually spent the last hour cleaning up the CSS and main page

[safe dragon]

damn

[devout vault]

Imagine actually working on your website

I could never

[safe dragon]

I don't even have a website

[devout vault]

Or get/write a browser extension that auto-replaces the links (and use web discord)

[safe dragon]

of course

[pliant snow]

the fact that I'm the only one on here with an actual functioning website gives me power over the rest of you

[devout vault]

...huh?

My website functions

Do you need me to go edit the front page yet again to prove it

[pliant snow]

it returns 200 and everything

[devout vault]

The new website functions too, it's just not public 😛

[safe dragon]

do I need to build a website

a fun one tho, not one I'd build for work

[devout vault]

My home page has an entire SEVEN lines of text.

[pliant snow]

But does your webpage 404 correctly

[safe dragon]

[devout vault]

(not a full page screenshot)

(don't worry its centered properly)

[pliant snow]

i had to double check if that was dust on my screen for a sec

[devout vault]

For the new website I wanna make the stars twinkle

It's also different stars

[pliant snow]

someday i should learn three.js or whatever the kids use these days and do some fun stuff

[devout vault]

And also make the stars tile less

Probably just a much bigger image, but anyways

...or I could do proper dynamic stars, I dunno

[safe dragon]

I'm conflicted. If I were to build a website, should I go minimal and clean like yours or go ridiculous and have the DOM elements be physics objects or something ridiculous

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #7006 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1462211583655804929)

[devout vault]

Make a secret key combination that enables physics mode

Atra don't quote that, it's a lie

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #7007 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1462212545904377919)

New quote added by atravita as #7008 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1462212667338002576)

[devout vault]

You know how nerdsniping is from giving someone an interesting problem to solve?

We need to popularize "ADHD-poke". When you mention something in passing near someone ADHD, and suddenly they want to do it

[safe dragon]

do you want to make a physics mode

[devout vault]

(this also works on me for seeing pictures of food online)

[cinder karma]

Sourdough bread

[devout vault]

Physics are scary

I'd rather make a farmsim mode

Where you have to grow each web page over several days just to access them

[safe dragon]

have your website double as an idle clicker game

[devout vault]

I do want a little pixel art cat walking around it

[safe dragon]

get 50k crumbs in my idle clicker to unlock the strawberry shortcake cursor

[devout vault]

Add achievements for regular visitors

(once per day or something, no cheesing by refreshing)

[safe dragon]

could be fun to do something silly

[pliant snow]

For my main site, I made sure to make it as static of a website as possible

[safe dragon]

lame

I don't really have anything I would want to put on a website so if I were to host one it'd have to be weird

I don't have actual achievements to post there

no blog

no nerdy projects to talk about

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #7009 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1462214118579896384)

[safe dragon]

[pliant snow]

gotta start writing some

https://web.archive.org/web/20190917214457/http://aquova.net/

[devout vault]

...It's been so long since I started this site that for the CMS softwre version, I've missed 5 minor releases, 1 major release, and then 2 more minor releases.

(not counting bugfix updates of course)

[pliant snow]

now that's a website

[devout vault]

I found a bug with your site

[pliant snow]

That's not even the oldest version though, there was like two redesigns before that

uh oh

[safe dragon]

what happened to shrek

[devout vault]

The non-https version just never loads (or redirects)

It's in an endless cycle of loading

[pliant snow]

well why would you do that

[safe dragon]

it redirects for me

[pliant snow]

I think my web browser automatically redirects so i never see it

[devout vault]

Because the link you posted was web.archive.org, so I just removed everything before http for comparison

[safe dragon]

never mind

the browser is doing the redirect

[pliant snow]

I thought caddy automatically redirected...

[devout vault]

The sad request that never finishes

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #7010 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1462214631916306596)

[pliant snow]

I did set up fail2ban this week and barely knew what I was doing, so hopefully it didn't just IP ban you

[devout vault]

I can access the https version fine

[safe dragon]

I did a curl requires to the http version and you indeed just get nothing

[pliant snow]

lol rip

[safe dragon]

no response of any kind

it's just stuck

because I am a cursed soul I only know IIS where you have to write an http to https rewrite rule

sane people don't use iis in 2026

[pliant snow]

Do I even have port 80 open...

[safe dragon]

do you host these locally or on a vps

[pliant snow]

vps

[safe dragon]

open all the ports

disable the firewall

[pliant snow]

oh i do have a firewall

and 80 is not open

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #7011 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1462216536143040654)

[pliant snow]

the fuck is ICMP

[devout vault]

Should I nuke my old website and start over on the new version of the CMS

I barely did anything with it to begin with. Mostly SpaceCore docs (which would disappear until I get semi-autogenerated ones that stay up to date), and some tweaks to the theme

[safe dragon]

I think icmp is used by like, routers

[pliant snow]

idk why it was open

I also never remember if I need TCP or UDP open, so fuck it both it is

[devout vault]

HTTP definitely shouldn't need UDP

[safe dragon]

what if aquo wants to stream video

[devout vault]

I wish aquo luck if they are streaming video with nothing but HTTP

[pliant snow]

HTTP doesn't even the option for UDP, just HTTPS

does http redirect work now

[devout vault]

Yes

[pliant snow]

we did it

[safe dragon]

cool kids use QUIC now not tcp

another bug has been fixed

[devout vault]

Cool kids = Hytale?

[safe dragon]

gratz

[devout vault]

Literally the only other time I've heard about QUIC before

[safe dragon]

I have no idea what hytale has to do with quic

[devout vault]

Online play, I assume

[pliant snow]

there are no bugs with my website, none at all

[safe dragon]

maybe

[devout vault]

.choose pretend I'll poke at website after dinner, don't

[heavy dagger]

Choose result: pretend I'll poke at website after dinner

[safe dragon]

good luck

[pliant snow]

if kids on neocities are whipping out websites, everyone can

[safe dragon]

I just would need to figure out what to put on it

[devout vault]

Back in my day, we coded our websites by hand with nothing but jquery!

[safe dragon]

jquery 4 might release soon

[rain apex]

Do y'all have thoughts about line coverage testing

[devout vault]

I thought it was gonna be a physics-based idle clicker?

[pliant snow]

jquery was a blight

[devout vault]

Isn't jquery basically a senior citizen at this point

[safe dragon]

it is

but still

jquery 4 is in release candidates rn

[devout vault]

It sure did make things less painful though

I've made... at least 2 sites with it

[safe dragon]

and now most the things you'd use jquery for are part of regular javascript

[pliant snow]

Less painful because you take a look at jquery syntax and think "you know what, I'll go outside instead"

[devout vault]

Yeah, and that's why we're talking about past tense

[pliant snow]

tbf i used it for one thing like 15 years ago

[safe dragon]

it's ok I think within reason. Having some target of like "99% coverage" is going to result in a lot of very stupid very useless tests made purely to satisfy some target but it's not a bad metric inherently

[devout vault]

The big part about doing the website is I don't want to build the theme from scratch

[pliant snow]

why know more about the web when html, css, the most basic JS functions, and just enough about PHP to set it up will do

[safe dragon]

I was still using jquery only like 2 years ago at my old job

[devout vault]

Testing? What's that?

[safe dragon]

they still are I'm sure

[pliant snow]

I was still using C only like two years ago at my job

[safe dragon]

what's the quote again... Any metric that becomes a target ceases to be a good metric?

[pliant snow]

Any metric that becomes a target ceases to be a good metric?
Crumble, 2026

[safe dragon]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Goodhart's_law

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by kittycatcasey as #7012 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1462219929632899132)

[safe dragon]

lmao

[pliant snow]

I should learn three.js tho

[devout vault]

four.js is all the rage nowadays

[safe dragon]

of course this quote comes from someone criticizing margaret thatcher

[steel kraken]

In my experience 99-100% incentivises bad tests and not writing defensive code (as defensive code is hard to test)

[pliant snow]

what are the odds its just a single JS script i can include and not some npm nonsense I wont do

[rain apex]

I have to meet 98 rn and i am indeed making some stupid ass test cases

[safe dragon]

I feared as much

[steel kraken]

My previous team actually did have it set to 100% and it was miserable

[rain apex]

I am mostly annoyed that the coverage thing doesn't take doc tests into account

[devout vault]

Oh, for that you might need to use threepointfive.js

[safe dragon]

the best part about line coverage is that 100% coverage doesn't even mean that tests cover every usecase

even though that's what it seems to mean to some people

[steel kraken]

Would need branch coverage for that iirc

[safe dragon]

unless there's a case you didn't even account for at all

it's not a thing in the code

[rain apex]

I do wonder about how the detection works

[steel kraken]

In my view code coverage is a useful tool in the sense you gain information about your test suite in the areas it doesn't touch.
Sometimes it can reveal errors (like using promise.then but expecting a try/catch to work).

But it gives zero information about the lines covered or whether the code works, just that it was executed at least once across the test fleet

So I rather no code coverage target but visualise code coverage in the code review process

[safe dragon]

yeah it's a genuinely valuable metric but setting some percentage target is just not the way to use it

it's nice for like "well damn do we just not have any test case for date filters here? We should add some"

[steel kraken]

I find the metric itself also useless but the full results useful

And have it be reviewers discretion as to whether the logic is important enough to have tests asserting it's behaviour or not

[rain apex]

Tbh i feel like not having it be a requirement just means no one will do it (I don't want to do it...)

I would never turn it on willingly for hobby stuff

[steel kraken]

Being forced to do it because of the stupid metric just makes bad tests

[rain apex]

(implying i do unit tests on hobby stuff to begin with)

I do hope we will write actual useful tests running not just with mock nonsense for this stuff yeah

[safe dragon]

god do I hate test mocking

it's so hard sometimes to write a mock that still makes you actually test what it's supposed to test and not just a test that tests whether the test works

[steel kraken]

Tautological tests is my main hatred for unit tests

[long verge]

Speaking of unit testing.
I was writing my first unit test in C for a little project of mine.
Do you know if there’s any way to test if something is correctly allocated/freed ?
I get that I will mostly use valgrind to check for memory leaks but the question really is about allocating

[pliant snow]

Test if something is freed inside the unit test?

[safe dragon]

I don't really do this anymore since at my current job database tests test against an actual database instance but at my old job we basically always had to mock some repository layer or something to do a test or in horrible cases you had to mock like 13 different services/repositories to get your tests to work and you end up spending more time writing your fuckin tests than the actual feature while also ending up with some very terrible unrepresentative tests based on almost entirely mocked responses

[long verge]

No, testing if a function is correctly freeing or allocating something

[safe dragon]

can you set a custom allocator for the testing thread?

then track it through that

[pliant snow]

There's no way to know if an arbitrary pointer in C is freed or not, barring explicitly setting it to NULL once you're done with it

[safe dragon]

I don't use C but that's what would make sense to me

use a custom allocator

[long verge]

So like a wrapper that increments a said variable ?

[safe dragon]

something like that. Obviously can't really give details cause I have never used C in my life

I don't even know if you can control the allocator used

[devout vault]

"Tests are my main hatred of tests"
Am I doing it right?

[safe dragon]

no

tbh I can never hate tests, they have proven to be so unbelievably valuable at work

[devout vault]

You could do some trickery to redirect allocation functions to custom ones, probably?

[rain apex]

Tbh i think scripting the valgrind run and parsing stdout is 100% valid for your usecase

[devout vault]

Have you considered: eww

[rain apex]

It's possible for malloc to fail since sometimes u got no mem and it gives u back a nope

[devout vault]

True

[rain apex]

I don't think u r responsible for anything beyond ok it didn't nope, proceed

[long verge]

Hmm ok, but they would mean using the custom allocator in the whole code which I don’t think I want. I think using valgrind will be enough anyways

[long verge]

Yeah

[devout vault]

Things casey dislikes:

• testing
• nullable
• rust
  I'm such a good, safe programmer

[safe dragon]

hating nullable would be a red flag in an interview tbh

hating tests too actually

hating rust is ok

[devout vault]

Thankfully I'm not being interviewed 🌈 ⭐

(I hate them for my low-stakes hobby projects that I won't stick with for more than a few days at most usually)

(I'm fine with using them for projects that actually matter)

[rain apex]

nullable
Each compile of spacecore deals 1 damage to me /lh

[devout vault]

(well, except rust. but anyways)

[long verge]

Yeah

Thanks for the answer

[devout vault]

If you want spacecore nullable, then you should invent time travel so it nullable was in place when C# was invented

(but more seriously, I'm not necessarily opposed to having #nullable enable sections, or even files if you have to make new ones)

[rain apex]

You can implement your own malloc and there's a popular one jemalloc

[devout vault]

I know this is possible thanks to an old game dev book I read, which talked about allocating a little extra in debug mode for the adding markers and such for debugging memory problems 😛

[safe dragon]

when I started working at this place I introduced a proper test suite which they never had... and then over time would just add a test for any behavior the database/application I would learn about from the database guy.
The sheer number of times it has saved our asses honestly. And since the test suite has existed the database guy has been a lot more confident in actually trying to do refactors which he was too scared to do previously so it has helped in that way too

[devout vault]

I agree they are good

[rain apex]

Oh i mean i don't plan on doing anything about it cus having a 1.1k line change is worse than just leaving all of them

[devout vault]

I just can't be bothered for silly hobby projects

[steel kraken]

I can't truly hate unit tests in their entirety.
but I do hate how they are mostly used.
I only want a unit test to assert behaviour on a function that has enough complexity to warrant it.

[rain apex]

It was pretty annoying when pathos suddenly flipped to file scoped namespaces

I had to fix my open PR

[safe dragon]

whenever I run into an old file that doesn't use file scoped namespaces I use the quick action to switch it over

[devout vault]

I meant for future PRs you introduce new code in, to be clear. Not PRs going back and nullable-ing old stuff 😛

[devout vault]

Yeah I still need to do that for my repo...

Also VS still does old style namespaces for new files for me, for some reason

[rain apex]

Weird

[devout vault]

also thanks to the compat branch, SDV can't use file scoped namespaces

or targeted new expressions. so much pain

[safe dragon]

tbh even though my test suite is part of the API... like 95% of all the tests are actually testing database procedures

[rain apex]

I think the C# vsc lsp started hinting me to use file scoped namespaces around C# 12 or something

[devout vault]

But what about my blames? 😔

[steel kraken]

put all the stylistic refactoring in a self contained commit and put it in the .blameignore

[safe dragon]

it does. Idk why

[rain apex]

Huh is sdv banned from language changes too

I figured the compiler would just deal with it™

[devout vault]

...is that a thing???????????????????????????????????????????????????????

[devout vault]

Some things are fine!

Not all

[steel kraken]

https://docs.github.com/en/repositories/working-with-files/using-files/viewing-and-understanding-files#ignore-commits-in-the-blame-view

[rain apex]

Is the "not" category language or .net?

[safe dragon]

one thing I know about git is that it can do like 90 times more things than anyone knows it can

[devout vault]

And like, we do have #if stuff for .net version for some stuff

[devout vault]

Language stuff that needs runtime support

[rain apex]

Ah so it's for build compat with .net 4.5 i assume

[devout vault]

Yeah

Hence me saying the compat branch 😛

[steel kraken]

isn't compat net 4.0 or some craziness

[devout vault]

I dunno, I just know every time I code with targeted new, the pipeline fails

[safe dragon]

having to support 4.0 is frankly depressing

[rain apex]

Crumble is from the future

[safe dragon]

idk what a targeted new is

[steel kraken]

its whatever the brute il -> cpp thing supported back in its day or whatever

[safe dragon]

am I...

[long verge]

Which place are you working at ?

[safe dragon]

🌈

[prisma flume]

it is amusing living in dotnet framework version limbo where is is allowed and is not is not

[devout vault]

Class c = new() instead of Class c = new Class()

[safe dragon]

basically the application was made as a simple temporary things to make some specific workflow smoother. Then people started using it more. Then even more and the application grew more... And now it's 30 years later and they're still using that application

[safe dragon]

ah I use that

[devout vault]

It matches their supported-ness!

I've been meaning to make us an analyzer that will yell at us if we do things that are okay in net6.0 builds but not the compat branch ones

[safe dragon]

most of the people who worked on it don't have a programming background either. They just kinda fell into that position when the application became as important as it now is

[prisma flume]

imo var c = new Class() is preferable, but obviously not as terse for repeated reassignments compared to c = new(), though more clear

[safe dragon]

though I've worked with entire teams of real programmers and still not see a single test suite anywhere

[devout vault]

I often prefer var c = something, but it depends.

Not that it matters when I can't use targeted new anyways

Like, if I'm constructing an object there? Targeted bew

If I'm doing something like var c = getC();? var is preferred for me

[prisma flume]

all i want for christmas is lovely sweet terse array implicit inline initialisation or whatever it's called

[devout vault]

...oh yeah, that's another one

[prisma flume]

arr = [ "a", "b" ]

[safe dragon]

that's a lot of words

[devout vault]

God I wish I could do int[] x = [ 1, 2, 3 ]; there

[rain apex]

But bluebs u can do it

[safe dragon]

oh yeah that's basically the only way I do things ever since it's been possible

[steel kraken]

that is part of the same new() feature right

[devout vault]

I'm pretty sure what blueberry said isn't what its actually called

[rain apex]

Only casey is banned from it

[prisma flume]

true

[devout vault]

I think technically the array thing came later?

[safe dragon]

for arrays you had { ... } a little before that

[prisma flume]

old dotnet versions tho

[safe dragon]

but now you can even use it for initializing dictionaries even though I can never remember the syntax

[devout vault]

Yeah I've been using new int[] { ... } instead, but it's bleh

[prisma flume]

yeah that syntax stynx

[rain apex]

I thought dict is like new dict() { ["key"] = value}

[devout vault]

No, it's much grosser

For the old style anyways

[prisma flume]

I have to look up typescript map and c# dictionary inline initialisation every time

such a mess

[devout vault]

It's var dict = new Dictionary<string, int>() { { "a", 1 }, { "b", 2 }, { "c", 3 } } or something

Stolen from stackoverflow (as is tradition)

// Source - https://stackoverflow.com/a
// Posted by Haney, modified by community. See post 'Timeline' for change history
// Retrieved 2026-01-17, License - CC BY-SA 4.0

static class Program
{
    static void Main(string[] args)
    {
        var myDict = new Dictionary<string, string>
        {
            { "key1", "value1" },
            { "key2", "value2" }
        };

        Console.ReadKey();
    }
}

It amuses me that the auto-attribution link doesn't actually have the answer ID

[devout vault]

Oh, that's the newer syntax

[steel kraken]

interesting, the two styles actually map to different IL

[devout vault]

Yeah I just read that

https://wolfgang-ziegler.com/blog/initializing-dictionaries-in-dotnet

The ["meow"] = "cat" syntax makes duplicate keys overwrite apparently, but the older syntax throws an exception

[prisma flume]

there are now 3 competing standards

[devout vault]

Three?

Have I forgotten another version

[devout vault]

blueberry you need to cite your sources

[safe dragon]

please preach the correct verse from the xkcd bible

[devout vault]

...I meant the third way of doing it, but that too

[steel kraken]

.xkcd 927

[safe dragon]

oh

[steel kraken]

bad bot

https://xkcd.com/927/

xkcd: Standards

Fortunately, the charging one has been solved now that we've all standardized on mini-USB. Or is it micro-USB? Shit.

[safe dragon]

thanks

[pliant snow]

good bot

[devout vault]

.cat

[heavy dagger]

https://s3.us-west-2.amazonaws.com/cdn2.thecatapi.com/images/c8GROn2Sj.jpg

[devout vault]

Well, I guess uber just has its priorities straight

[steel kraken]

uber remind me in 1 minute if you are ok

[heavy dagger]

Gosh darn it, fine, sinz163 (#7034954) (1m | <t:1768694100>)

[steel kraken]

.xkcd 927

odd

[heavy dagger]

@steel kraken: I are ok (1m ago)

[devout vault]

😂

[steel kraken]

ok this server is blocking ubers xkcd response

[devout vault]

sorry too busy laughing at "I are ok" to care

[prisma flume]

well the third standard is just linq statements

new dict().addrange() and such

[devout vault]

(but also @ junimos why do you hate us specifically)

[devout vault]

...how would you initialize the constants you want to put into said addrange call, then?

[steel kraken]

im assuming uber lost image embed permissions or something

[devout vault]

Is this a recursive third standard

[devout vault]

The cat loaded for me!

TEchnically. Kinda

It uh. Got stuck

[prisma flume]

existing list todictionary 🙂‍↕️

[devout vault]

That's not a new standard. That's throwing two standards for something completely different to accomplish the same thing but less efficiently

Like aquo and using TCP/HTTP for video streaming earlier

[prisma flume]

well yes but it's important you consider in the context of this conversation that i'm just talking complete bs to pass the time

[devout vault]

Good point

https://tenor.com/view/ken-jeong-community-ill-allow-it-its-okay-mexican-gif-5120930

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #7013 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1462234657562038394)

[devout vault]

That is a really good quote

[cinder karma]

(I have internet points to score so I'm just armed with the 💬 today)

[devout vault]

I wanna make a VR game but I don't want to code all the engine stuff to accomodate it 😔

[prisma flume]

at this rate ubers going to get the shiny slitherlegs role

[steel kraken]

unless uber is exempt from something I'm surprised uber is only a cowpoke

[devout vault]

We can’t let uber have that kind of power

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #7014 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1462235041055772784)

[devout vault]

That’s the real reason. Trust me I’m friends with a junimo

[prisma flume]

he's probably manually cowpoke to have image perms without specific rules

[steel kraken]

that reminds me, one day I'll finish my monopoly game, its been sitting at a 0.9 state for over a year now

but why no xkcd command then 🙁

[devout vault]

Just like one day I’ll make Magic 2.0, right?

[steel kraken]

https://monopolis.361zn.is/ https://github.com/SinZ163/monopolis-web its like 95% of a working monopoly game

better netcode than ubisoft (though that isn't hard)

[devout vault]

My old game maker game that had a few seconds of lag on localhost had better netcode than Ubisoft

(/s? I’m not sure ever played anything Ubisoft online. Or very little at all, even)

[steel kraken]

monopoly plus has a common problem of desyncing on how much money each client believes each other has

in a turn based board game

[devout vault]

Oh, is that their game?

...Brawlhalla is ubisoft???

[steel kraken]

and if a client pays rent or whatever but a different client from their state believe they couldn't actually pay for it.
the game soft locks until someone leaves (and cant rejoin) to remove the problem

[devout vault]

wait why does wikipedia say android/ios only

[safe dragon]

lowest bar

[devout vault]

oh nevermind I'm still free of ubisoft netcode

[hardy jewel]

I fixed it

[steel kraken]

this is mostly a port from my dota version, though made more progress in being a more complete monopoly experience

[devout vault]

.xkcd

[heavy dagger]

xkcd #643: Ohm

Published 30 Sep 2009 | More generally, with great power comes great dEnergy/dt.

[devout vault]

Zoe experienced that advice firsthand with the great power they just used

(Thank you!)

[hardy jewel]

I think someone turned it off because they didn't know what it was lol

[devout vault]

????

Huh

[safe dragon]

when are the face commands gonna work again

I need to be able to brag about having a custom one even though it's genuinely terrible

sad face

[devout vault]

They're broken? gasp

[hardy jewel]

aren't some of those too inappropriate for here

I remember yours being at least

[safe dragon]

oh probably

definitely

[devout vault]

Face command? Inappropriate?

Am I thinking of a different face command than y'all are?

Is it not just the ones of an NPC portrait on a screen, with an IRL hand reaching to it?

[safe dragon]

way older than that

[hardy jewel]

no these ones are just ones for the ub3r bot that aren't related to the server

[devout vault]

Oh, uberbot

Okay that makes more sense

[hardy jewel]

well they are

because moiph was staff here

and has friends here

[devout vault]

No I get it

[hardy jewel]

but they aren't for sdv

yeah

[safe dragon]

some of those commands are from the IRC era of uberbot

[devout vault]

Eemie knew the author right?

[hardy jewel]

Eemie is married to the author

[devout vault]

I talked to eemie a bunch before they left

[safe dragon]

yeah they're married

[devout vault]

Ah. Well then yes, eemie knows the author (I hope)

[pliant snow]

oh I didn't know they married

[hardy jewel]

it was within the past few years

[devout vault]

I remembered some sort of dating situation, but went with "knew" because it didn't mean that was still the case

I don't think I've talked to eemie since they left here

Probably doesn't even know my new name

[safe dragon]

[safe dragon]

smh

[devout vault]

...okay I have played a ubisoft published game

apparently

(I've been scrolling from most recent to oldest on wikipedia)

[pliant snow]

I shall assume my invitation was lost in the mail

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #7015 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1462235485328904356)

[safe dragon]

but yeah I have a custom face command cause I was around at that time and in the same friend group but it's genuinely laughably inaccurate to who I am

[safe dragon]

unbelievable

I have a rayman game

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #7016 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1462239830883958929)

[cinder karma]

I misread Rayman as ramen

[safe dragon]

I don't have ramen

[devout vault]

Not surprising to be honest

[cinder karma]

I saw kpop demon hunters Ramen at costco

[safe dragon]

or a ramen game

[devout vault]

I couldn't find any other ubisoft games I've actually played. I have one DS game which I never really played much, and I know of at least one from the list that is in STeam wishlist purgatory

For those who don't know or have forgotten why my steam wishlist is purgatory

[cinder karma]

Look i replace my entire personality every now and then

It's currently bread

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by kittycatcasey as #7017 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1462240427393552416)

[safe dragon]

that's so 2020

[devout vault]

One could even say that the new years resolution replaces their entire personality once a year

[cyan shadow]

Mine is playing with my 3DS on the train, apparently

[safe dragon]

not a very useful wishlist

[cyan shadow]

Makes the hour go by faster

[devout vault]

The DS game I had but never really played.

Which might baffle you that I haven’t played it hardly, unless you realize I had other cat games I played more instead

[devout vault]

It's a list of games I've ever wished for, what's unclear about it

[safe dragon]

my wishlist is a little deceiving because I use it in part to keep track of games I should tell my mom about whenever she's looking for more games to play

so it's not all games I personally actually want

[cinder karma]

I wonder why virtual knitting friend makes different numbers of socks regardless of similar focus time

[cyan shadow]

That's actually so wholesome, awww

[cinder karma]

My steam wishlist is even more useless

[devout vault]

Man, what is it with managers these days and expecitng a fixed rate of productivity for tasks that can vary so much

[cinder karma]

It's a list of games I considered in 2020 and then forgot about

[cinder karma]

Well, I'm so 2020

[safe dragon]

she needs her turn based jrpgs I don't have a choice

she's playing Triangle Strategy rn

[cyan shadow]

Ahh

[devout vault]

https://tenor.com/view/dante-dante-devil-may-cry-devil-may-cry5-hello-hello-based-department-gif-26042779

[safe dragon]

she just beat the dragon quest 3 remake

I gotta keep up

thankfully they released a dragon quest 7 remake

🙏

[devout vault]

...hold up

That cat game I do remember playing a lot is also ubisoft

[devout vault]

The gameboy advance one. (Also pictured: the other cat games)

[safe dragon]

I have a cd with petz 5 in it

[pliant snow]

you went out of your way to not play nintencats

[devout vault]

Also, the games in my ds game collection that I’m fondest of, because why not

[devout vault]

I don't think I found out until later?

[pliant snow]

wow we're the two people who bought lost magic

[devout vault]

Or I had it in one of those bundled nintendogs/cats copies, which I don't have anymore

[safe dragon]

make that 3

I have lost magic too

[pliant snow]

this is now a lost magic server

[devout vault]

https://tenor.com/view/arrested-development-david-cross-tobias-funke-there-are-dozens-of-us-dozens-gif-5426075

[safe dragon]

my sister destroyed her ds touch screen with that game

[devout vault]

Such a cool game

My brothers and I played the MP PvP sometimes

I've definitely played many more than I have here

But sometimes my twin and I traded games, and some stuff we don't have anymore, etc.

[devout vault]

(here = on my desk)

(The black dots on the cartridges were from marking who owned that copy)

[safe dragon]

harvest moon ds. If that game hasn't existed I wouldn't have been here today

[pliant snow]

a solid collection

[devout vault]

I had no clue what I was doing

[safe dragon]

that's the game I enjoyed enough to still be looking for a PC harvest moon game years later

[devout vault]

And then I discovered the fishing harvest sprite in winter exploit

And it became boring because I had absurd money

[safe dragon]

let me find the best game

[pliant snow]

please mail me ur ds collection thank you

[devout vault]

I would show my 3ds game collection, but it was all digital, and I still need to get a new battery since the old one was danger ravioli

[safe dragon]

this is where gaming peaked

[devout vault]

Not sure if I played that one

Played some of the GC ones though

[cinder karma]

I should make pho

[devout vault]

Can't believe you don't have one for all seven books, smh

[pliant snow]

those two are excellent games

[devout vault]

They were full RPGs????