programmers-off-topic

[hushed raven]

I agree without a shadow of a doubt, i think mostly for me it's because my knees over extend when standing, I really need to get a treadmill or something but they can be costly and/or I am 6ft and heavy and often they don't support my weight

[safe dragon]

the netherlands has a pretty strong culture of lunch walks

I suppose to make up for our complete lack of lunch culture

around lunch break you'll find many (including me) just going outside and just having a stroll together for the duration of the break

our lunch walks specifically are pretty extensive so with that + all the walking from public transport I tend to reach around 10k steps on work days

[cinder karma]

Nice!

Hey, anyone hiring in the Netherlands?

I dont get tired at all walking tbh

I can easily do a 20 mi hike just give me four sandwiches

[safe dragon]

always

[cinder karma]

We haven't tested my standing time (I tend to get bored) but it cant be significantly worse

Than walking

[safe dragon]

the walk is more an excuse to socialize while being away from your desk

[cinder karma]

Yessss

And to reset a bit

I will take walks during the day too

Y'all have a golden visa rightm

[safe dragon]

uh I don't think so

[cinder karma]

Right you do

Y'all have the hilariously cheap one too

The €5k thing

[safe dragon]

The Netherlands officially abolished its Golden Visa program on January 1, 2024

idk where you get 5k

it was 1.25 million euros

[cinder karma]

The Dutch American Friendship Treaty https://share.google/jgJrnEvGDyCkC6NqC

[safe dragon]

hmm that seems to be a separate thing

I'm trying to find dutch resources on this

ok it does still seem to exist

but obviously it comes with caveat that you need to run a business in the netherlands

[cinder karma]

(Self employment contracting counts)

[safe dragon]

the regular golden visa was abolished as per the 24th of april 2024

though tbh we're about to transition to a pro-immigration government since we just had an election and the anti immigration party didn't achieve the most votes this time

so maybe it'll be back

no idea if that's actually a good thing I didn't even know this existed

[devout vault]

time to drag my parents/siblings out of the US

[cinder karma]

It's not an uncommon visa type the Netherlands one ks just very low

Which makes. Say, setting up Atra's PCB layout shop, but also planning on living off savings as a backup, feasible

[safe dragon]

there's certainly cheaper countries if that's your goal

also settle near eindhoven if you want to sell pcbs

that's where the companies like philips and ASML are

and thus also people with very nerdy hobbies

[pliant snow]

Twice today I've gone "oh this is a useful program I have saved on my computer, where did I get this" only to realize I wrote it

[safe dragon]

please seek medical help if you're writing entire programs without knowing

[pliant snow]

I even have it in version control

I do remember writing it, but it looks very unlike the programs I typically write

probably because it's a cursed shell script

[cinder karma]

(Fwiw, doing layout as a contractor is a thing. You typically never see the finished product lol.)

[devout vault]

Everytime I write a useful program for myself I promptly forget about it within a week (I assume, seeing as I don't remember any)

[hushed raven]

pretty accurate, I either forget about it entirely, or forget where I put it, my computer has become an egg hunt with great prizes that aren't a straw hat (dangerously close to on topic)

[safe dragon]

I actually don't write useful tools and just redo it all all over again every time

I do have a dotfiles repo... I think

I forgot how it worked

[hushed raven]

I really need to set one up for myself but I am lazy and mine currently don't work perfectly

[safe dragon]

I don't really know how to deal with dotfiles that I want to be different between pcs

I have no use for a battery indicator in my top bar for example on my desktop

[hushed raven]

Personally I would do symlinks or 2 repos with a suffix like -d for desktop and -l for laptop

[safe dragon]

I opt not to think about it and just comment out the battery indicator on my pc

ez

😌

[hushed raven]

That certainly is an easier option XD

[safe dragon]

honestly I'm very inconsistent

I only just now realized I don't use the same terminal on my laptop and pc

I use alacritty on my pc and kitty on my laptop

I have bash rn on my pc and zsh on my laptop

[hushed raven]

I don't even use the same terminal between 2 desktop environments on my pc so that isn't the oddest thing XD

Konsole for KDE and Kitty for hyprland

[safe dragon]

I've also used Foot before

idk they're all essentially the exact same thing I feel like

but I know there's people with fierce loyalty to specific terminals

[hushed raven]

As long as I can copy and paste to and from the terminal, they are exactly the same to me XD, bonus points if they can be transparent

[devout vault]

I don't think mozart knows how to use a terminal

He does know how to steal, though. (That orange starburst used to next to the others.)

[hushed raven]

AWW LOOK AT THE LIL MAN

mozart is a precious thief and he should be acquitted of all crimes

I rest my case your Honour

[cinder karma]

Mozart is adorable

[prisma flume]

his posture is suboptimal and not conducive to a productive workday 🙂‍↕️

[cinder karma]

Also that wasn't stolen

Just mildly moved

He's a cat

Cats have perfect posture

Only humans with our insane idea of bipedalism suffer from bad postuee

Also, for an idea of atra standing time, I've literally been cooking for the entire last hour and my feet have not complained

[prisma flume]

unfortunately humans with our insane ideas also suffer from a productive workday

[cinder karma]

Just ask Mozart what a productive work day is

Knocking every item off Casey's desk i bet

[hushed raven]

and probably making a lovely meow based symphony

[devout vault]

I vaguely recall there being people here who enjoyed BDG's pumpkin cowboy, so if that is the case: y'all should read his october progress report on patreon (it's accessible from the free tier... or I can just screenshot it here if anyone wants (after I triple check that it is the free tier))

Or, wait

Is that okay even if it's the free tier

It is the free tier

But I mean, I assume there's a reason it's on a patreon subscribe-for-free-tier instead of just an open post, so perhaps I won't share a screenshot

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6722 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1434654043761938502)

[dusty pollen]

what a truly wonderful song

[cinder karma]

Casey this is a deadlift

https://youtube.com/shorts/P6UQzbUfzLQ?si=wU7vARY1ZjcRetyF

[devout vault]

Are you sure? She looks alive

[lyric bloom]

stares at python at hostile

    if 'Name' in i:
                    itemID="{{ModId}}."+i['Name']

apparenetly that's a nonetype even with the check for it being pre-

oh

right

angrish at default fields

Raw Data: [{'Type': 'Object', 'Name': None, 'Index': 214, 'Stack': 1, 'Quality': 2}, {'Type': 'Object', 'Name': None, 'Index': 215, 'Stack': 1, 'Quality': 2}, {'Type': 'Object', 'Name': None, 'Index': 350, 'Stack': 2, 'Quality': 3}]
Parsed Data: [{'itemID': '(O)214', 'stack': 1, 'quality': 2}, {'itemID': '(O)215', 'stack': 1, 'quality': 2}, {'itemID': '(O)350', 'stack': 2, 'quality': 4}]

it's working! >_>

[safe dragon]

huzzah

[lyric bloom]

the real test is:

Raw Data: [{'Type': 'Object', 'Name': None, 'Index': 220, 'Stack': 1, 'Quality': 3}, {'Type': 'Object', 'Name': 'LimeMacaron', 'Stack': 2, 'Quality': 3}]
Parsed Data: [{'itemID': '(O)220', 'stack': 1, 'quality': 4}, {'itemID': '{{ModId}}.LimeMacaron', 'stack': 2, 'quality': 4}]

that should be correct, I can run it against this script, so the only thing I need to detail edit are when I have time to proofread the emails

[brittle pike]

why we use "in" in the first line

[lethal walrus]

because if the key is missing or the dict is None it'll throw

[brittle pike]

when we type "i" right?

[lethal walrus]

where

[brittle pike]

in the console window

when we use input

[lethal walrus]

when you run the code

not all python takes place in the REPL

[brittle pike]

so why people use spaces

[lethal walrus]

readability??

and they're necessary sometimes

[brittle pike]

great thanks

[brittle pike]

i dont mean that XD

[lethal walrus]

then what do you mean

[brittle pike]

wait let me give you an example

[steel kraken]

in almost every other language, whitespace is purely for making the codebase more readable
Python is somewhat of an outlier due to its use of whitespace indentation as part of the syntax, but even then theres plenty of places to make unreadable python if you don't follow style conventions

[lethal walrus]

and?

[brittle pike]

I mean when he goes to the next line he put some space and then he typed print

[lethal walrus]

.

[hushed raven]

(this is easily my least fav part of python, so many times I've messed up indentation and only realised a while after trying to figure out what causes the bug)

[cinder karma]

Use a proper ide

[hushed raven]

I like to keep everything within (VS)OSSCode for easy access, which isn't smart enough to realise when something that works is in the wrong place unfortunately

[brittle pike]

Use pycharm then

[dusty pollen]

there are even vim plugins that can do this though

btw, do you mean vscodium? or is this a type of foss I haven’t heard of

[hushed raven]

I'm honestly not sure if it is VSCodium? I don't see any VSCodium branding, only "Code - OSS" (got the OSS and Code the wrong way around my bad) it's built from the same source as VSCode and VSCodium though

I had no idea there were plugins that were smart enough to recognise miss-indented code even though it still works, a (very basic and not production code) example off the top of my head would be:

if True == True:
  print("TRUE")
  print("TRUE")
# and
if True == True:
  print("TRUE")
print("TRUE")

These would both work and output the same:

TRUE
TRUE

I know if something else indented followed the second print statement it would throw an error, but with more code following and without console logging, it would be harder to actually figure out that is the issue

[dusty pollen]

why aren’t you using an actual python language server for code oss?

I’m almost certain there are oss ones

yup, pylance is CC-BY-4.0 and jedi is MIT

[hushed raven]

I'm using pylance (more specifically the pylance packaged with Python - ms-python on the openvsx registry) it however can't detect when something like my above example is being miss indented

[hushed raven]

I like to keep everything in one single place as I usually write with multiple languages at once usually either translating or writing psudocode in a language I'm very familiar with, plus all the extensions I have for Code make my work flow a lot quicker, I'm pretty sure pycharm also wouldn't see it as an error either given it does actually work (sorry, was supposed to reply to this earlier along side my original reply to Iro but I got distracted)

[safe dragon]

yeah that's valid code so there's nothing that can really be done

[dusty pollen]

yeah, that code should run?

you can use an autoformatter instead ig

[safe dragon]

not really sure what would help with accidentally giving something the wrong indentation

very clear gutter lines is the best I can think of

this is not really a problem I've ever had before

[hushed raven]

It's more just an personal annoyance and typing quickly without touch typing (something I can't do when coding)

I may see about making an extension that solves the issue, given everything that's supposed to be seperate is seperated by blank lines or comments, it gives me a decent way to search for possible issues with indentation

[safe dragon]

I'd have said you'd at least get an error if you used a scoped variable in the outer scope by accidentally but I vaguely remember python barely even knowing what scope means and just letting you get away with the wildest out of scope access imaginable

I remember seeing a friend of mine was was learning programming using a variable scoped to a function somewhere else in the codebase and even that somehow worked

[hushed raven]

ye python doesn't take much note of scoped variables unlike lua for instance (to my knowledge atleast) it's both a blessing and a curse

[safe dragon]

unlike I think every other language I have ever used barring the mostly deprecated var in javascript

[devout vault]

javascript deprecated what

[safe dragon]

it still works

people just avoid using it now

[devout vault]

why

[safe dragon]

don't worry they're never killing anything

because var is terrible

[devout vault]

how

[safe dragon]

var doesn't declare a variable at the scope it was declared at but at either global scope or the function scope

[marble jewel]

Python sometimes gives me bad feelings because I've had to debug code where they didn't employ any strategies to reduce nested indented logic, and they created excessive/unnecessary abstractions so it was impossible to determine what anything was doing without jumping between multiple files

[safe dragon]

let is basically var but without that dumb thing in js

[devout vault]

what

[fleet wren]

they added let and const which have clearer scope syntaxes and mutability notation

[safe dragon]

yeah

always use let and const

var just asks for accidental out of scope access bugs

[hushed raven]

I think I actually have a couple vars in some js I have, I need to fix that at somepoint when it breaks (if it isn't broke don't fix it)

[safe dragon]

at my old job visual studio was validating against some ancient ECMAScript standard and would give a warning if you tried to use let due to not being compatible with Internet Explorer 9

[devout vault]

Brb making a javascript transpiler that just turns var -> let

(Because I maintain that let for declaring a variable is incredibly dumb naming)

[red crest]

let has been the goto for like, years now innit

[devout vault]

(admittedly I've never actually heard the reasoning that was chosen)

(but I still hate it)

[hushed raven]

thankfully I try to avoid excessive nestedness as much as I can bc I program in half a standard screen which reduces the visibility with long lines (word wrap is also a pain to read with long indented lines)

[safe dragon]

let is also how you declare a variable in rust so it is actually genius and the correct keyword

[hushed raven]

I am guilty of putting basically everything into functions though, bit of a downside for readability, but I try to keep the organised via importance

[devout vault]

Thanks for adding another reason to my "i hate it" pile

[safe dragon]

lmao

[red crest]

let also cant be redeclared while var can

[devout vault]

Need to get me some crab repellant for this channel

[hushed raven]

That I did not know, interesting, I thought let would've been and const wouldn't

[fleet wren]

you cant redeclare it, but you can reassign it

[devout vault]

That just tells me var is trash, not that let is a good keyword name

[red crest]

you can do let x = 1, x = 2

[fleet wren]

you can't reassign consts

[red crest]

well its a good thing i was not saying anything about its name

[devout vault]

well it's a good thing I don't have reading comprehension

[fleet wren]

my rule of thumb as someone who thinks functional programming is superior is always use consts as the default and only let in certain cases

[red crest]

var x = 1; // Allowed
var x = "hello"; // Allowed
let y = 1; // Allowed
let y = "hi" // Not allowed

[safe dragon]

I always type const out of habit even when I already know it's something I am going to mutate like an i in a for loop

and then I have to go back and replace it with let

but yeah javascript is the only other langauge I've used with shitty negligence when it comes to scope but at least js realized its mistake

python meanwhile lets you grab variables scoped to the divine aether in a parallel universe

it does not care

[fleet wren]

speaking of scope insanity this binding is also a "fun" problem to deal with for ppl who write frontend for a living

[devout vault]

coughs in PHP $_GLOBALS (if that's even still a thing)

[hushed raven]

Ahh I got confused between redeclare and reassign ty

[safe dragon]

"oh yes I have a variable called bingus somewhere in storage I'll get u that one"

tbh I think generally people just no longer use this in js

[devout vault]

what

[fleet wren]

good

[devout vault]

how

[red crest]

i cant remember the last time i used this in js

[safe dragon]

this is absolutely fucked up

[hushed raven]

I have never used this to my knowledge?

I think

[devout vault]

I'm pretty sure member variables/etc. exist in some way

So what do you use instead

Or is the implicit syntax the only used way

[red crest]

well usually i think you're not doing it from inside the object

[devout vault]

I vaguely recall some language having to use this. or it would make a new magical local, and I thought it was javascript

[red crest]

i was gonna say i have used it when working with classes in js but also i rarely use classes in js which are just sparkling objects anyway

[devout vault]

Can member functions not modify themself????

[safe dragon]

I think lua requires you to specify local or it just makes it a global variable

[devout vault]

(please pretend the prototype nonsense doesn't exist for a moment)

[safe dragon]

but idk about this

[red crest]

i dont know how to word what i mean

[fleet wren]

if you use typescript it has proper classes syntax and you do use this a lot in member functions yes

[hushed raven]

Ye Lua needs local for it to not be global, I know that for certain, I've never come across this in lua

[devout vault]

Typescript is cheating if you're talking about the horrors of JS though

[red crest]

i use typescript and still dont recall my last this

[safe dragon]

I don't think I've used the this keyword in many years cause you look at it wrong and the this is accidentally referring to something you didn't intend

[fleet wren]

hmm do you just use classes as data holders

[devout vault]

...this sounds like an introduction statement to an AA-type meeting with how you structured it

[red crest]

i just dont generally use classes

[safe dragon]

this in callbacks aren't even consistent in what they are it depends how the callback was called

can't say I have used a class in javascript

[devout vault]

this isn't referring to this, but rather, refers to that. the horrors

[fleet wren]

yeah our TS code base is very object oriented and with this aplenty

[red crest]

i used a class very very recently but its definitely an outlier

and i dont remember if it even lasted the entire codebase

so i cant be certain if i still have a this in use

[hushed raven]

I don't think I use classes in JS or TS either? I can't think of one

[safe dragon]

actually I do have 1 class now that I think about it cause I needed some niche way to deal with only a partially reactive object in svelte and with a class you can individually declare properties to be $state()

I quickly learnt that's a very slippery slope though and very quickly breaks

so I've only done it once

for the most part I just define types

typescript is pretty good at types as it turns out

[red crest]

types and interfaces, classless behaviour

[devout vault]

Compared to assembly, where it is incredibly painful to assemble things

[fleet wren]

we functional programmers in this house take your oop back to java

[red crest]

the only other time i think ive used a class i ended up scrapping it bc its a pain to work with classes and indexeddb

[devout vault]

Compared to C#, which doesn't have as much music as one might expect

[safe dragon]

a shame really

[devout vault]

Compared to Java, which is completely unrelated to both coffee and that one island

[hushed raven]

C++ on the other hand does have quite a few C's and +'s

[safe dragon]

and javascript which is completely unrelated to java

[devout vault]

It actually underadvertises - there's two types ++, not one

[hushed raven]

That confused the ever loving hell out of me when I started learning it, "tf do you mean JAVAscript has nothing to do with JAVA??"

[devout vault]

<flashbacks to someone I once knew seeing I made minecraft mods and later saying to me "oh, you learned javascript">

[safe dragon]

"no actually I compile my minecraft mods from C#"

[fleet wren]

truly one of the worst insults you can give someone, insinuating that they know javascript

[safe dragon]

even though most of us know javascript

[red crest]

i even like javascript

[safe dragon]

wtf

[devout vault]

Haven’t gotten that working yet 😔

[safe dragon]

that goes too far

[red crest]

Several people are typing...

[hushed raven]

I have to agree with Button on this

I do actually kinda enjoy it

[safe dragon]

javascript is my mortal enemy as someone who likes to think about minimizing memory allocations a lot

[red crest]

i love being able to pass whatever i want into whatever function i want

[devout vault]

That's why most of us won't get into heaven - our minds have already been corrupted.

[red crest]

and i like being able to use many things as falsy or truthy values

[safe dragon]

if(definitelyNotABoolean)

[red crest]

i mean its basically free nullable

dont think about it too hard

[safe dragon]

falsy and truthy is all fun and games till you build the habit of checking for undefined/null that way and do it for a number and accidentally exclude 0

[devout vault]

just need to add implicit cast operators to C#, like C++ has

[red crest]

see if you like javascript you just remember not to do that

[safe dragon]

[red crest]

ive been tempted to do similar-ish and just use object before but my fear of what people in making-mods-general would do to me stopped me from doing so

[devout vault]

can we also get values as parameters for generics in C# please

[red crest]

object + casting

[safe dragon]

rust has those

👍

[devout vault]

sprays crab repellant

[red crest]

ive yet to touch a rust still

[fleet wren]

you fool, it only makes us stronger (like how bacteria becomes more resilient to antibiotics)

[hushed raven]

I had to touch some rust recently, so far I don't hate it.... but I also don't like it

it was a structural pillar too

[safe dragon]

much like how javascript upsets the memory allocation minimizer goblin in my brain, rust makes it very happy

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6724 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1435022276570644550)

[safe dragon]

C# Span also makes it very happy

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6725 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1435022735314256015)

[fleet wren]

the last time I touched rust (I use rust btw) was when I was cleaning the bottom of my cast iron pan (I use a cast iron pan btw)

[hushed raven]

I have many memory, I will maximise and use it all, ignore performance, embrace unethical consumption

[safe dragon]

oops ur whole website is stuck in a GC pause smh

I wish wasm was more usable in practice

though wasm doesn't actually have any way to free memory in its api

[cinder karma]

Same

[lethal walrus]

i've used wasm once and it wasn't awful but it doesn't run for that long so can't do much memory usage lol

[cinder karma]

I dont need to program this way but it's funnnnn

[lethal walrus]

(looping through pixels in go bc js too slow)

[safe dragon]

a wasm application will always reserve as much memory as the peak memory usage it encountered while running since it can't be freed

[red crest]

ive yet to use wasm

[lethal walrus]

i used it to diff images specifically

[red crest]

not even entirely sure how one even uses wasm tbh

i should probably know that

[hushed raven]

I was thinking of doing some wasm, in the end got distracted and never did, I should revisit the idea at somepoint

[lethal walrus]

view-source:https://xnb.pillow.rocks/src/go/main.go

oh can't link the source, going to it downloads the file

[hushed raven]

I need to not click on any link,I fear it would be so easy to infect my computer, literally the second I saw .go I clicked it

[cinder karma]

Some did a gorgeous wasm waveform viewer

[safe dragon]

I've technically used a lot of wasm cause of Blazor

evil blazor

[devout vault]

What's bad about it?

[red crest]

might i ask whats evil about blazor <---- never used or looked into it

[fleet wren]

I'll should look into wasm more but I hate the idea of browser-based apps and everything moving into the browser in general

hmm maybe I can port my shitty tracker music player to wasm and host it so I can use it at work

[safe dragon]

oh no I have to rant about two things at once

[hushed raven]

I'm frankly the opposite as long as it uses my pc's processing power and not send my things to a random server in the US ready to be data scraped and sold agaisnt my will

[red crest]

browser is ezpz and also for my side project browser-availability is king so im stuck accepting it one way or another

[devout vault]

Only reason I care about it for embedding gamejam games into the browser

[safe dragon]

I'm not actually knowledgeable enough to rant about wasm other than the lack of a way to free memory thing but all I know is that it's apparently quite difficult to compile to wasm for most languages which is why there's so few languages with a mature compilation target for it

[red crest]

i like that if it runs in a (modern) browser then pretty much anyone can access it if they want to

[lethal walrus]

but what about netscape!

[safe dragon]

wasm also can't actually do anything with the DOM so any wasm application ends up needing to build JS interop logic for DOM operations

[red crest]

isnt modern netscape chromium based?

[devout vault]

(Another one: Compared to Ocaml, which quite accurately has 0 camels.)

[cinder karma]

Surfer https://share.google/8MESR2iZumzYf1pLV

[devout vault]

(I saw ocaml mentioned recently and it threw me for a loop)

[hushed raven]

pretty much my line of thinking too, it makes it a bit more accessible for the less techno-inclined too

[cinder karma]

This is so fun

[fleet wren]

netscape is alive???

[devout vault]

...there's a modern netscape?

[hushed raven]

what on earth is netscape?

[red crest]

i thought there was

[fleet wren]

lmao it got brought back apparently

[red crest]

we found the young one

[devout vault]

.s/is/was/ (or so I thought)

[fleet wren]

indeed as a chromium browser

[devout vault]

something something live long enough to become a villain

[cinder karma]

Netscape lives

What about opera

[fleet wren]

take a seat young one and let me retale the tales of the browser wars of yore /lh

[hushed raven]

I am not old enough to know netscape at all XD, AOL isn't even something that I remember

[cinder karma]

Oh my god

So you recall ie6

[red crest]

AOL is also still around

[devout vault]

I mean I've never actually seen netscape, I just have heard of it

[red crest]

you can still pay for some AOL services

not dial-up tho. rip

[cinder karma]

All y'all are so young

[red crest]

(tho even that was only very recently killed off)

[lethal walrus]

isn't AOL's current browser a subscription thing

[red crest]

(like... last month?)

[devout vault]

Maybe I should take a poke at my web/console-homebrew/PC game engine again

[red crest]

yes

[devout vault]

But then I'll want to get the C++ reflection thing working 😔

[red crest]

you can use it for free but you can pay for its "advanced" "features"

[hushed raven]

Okay I know dial-up atleast, that isn't foreign to me, I'm not as much of a baby as I though compared to you all

[fleet wren]

Opera still lives on but only as a Chromium fork like the rest (rip Presto)

[red crest]

(spoiler: half of its security features you pay for are chrome's security features, because, surprise! AOL's browser is a chromium fork)

[fleet wren]

wow this is almost as much smoke up the butt as OpenAI's much hyped AI browser

(spoiler, it's also Chromium with a skin)

[red crest]

they will warn you if you go to a malicious website that is known to be malicious and they will do some anti keylogging stuff (that might be unique idk) and they will prevent malicioous screen capturing

[devout vault]

very tangentially related but apparently wxwidgets is still a thing

[devout vault]

always irks me when I see an opera sponsor on youtube for some reason

[cinder karma]

Anyways

I'm here to complain

[devout vault]

You're in the right place

Especially if it's about tech

[safe dragon]

the tldr is really bad design decisions but the main one I'll highlight is that Blazor was inspired by the "reactive frameworks" that were taking over the web dev space (like react)

So Blazor went with the model where you modify your state and the DOM is automagically diffed and updated based on state changes.
... Except they just did not build any system whatsoever in the entire framework to detect state changes. They went the very insane choice to just assume all state inside the components probably changed whenever any user event is handled so just clicking a button inside that component is just going to assume everything in that component (and any of its children) need to be completely re-rendered. This happens for any handled user event so shit like onscroll are a massive performance footgun cause they fire hundreds of times per second at worst

[cinder karma]

Why the fuck is my simulation dying randomly 20% of the time without error messages

[safe dragon]

in Blazor Server, the server side variant any event is sent to yoru web server and that includes the types of events that trigger hundreds of times per second.
We had a memory usage issue at one point which turned out to be that a div was using onpointermove and jsut moving your mouse over that div would completely overload the SignalR message bus and freeze your program to a halt

[devout vault]

That sounds horrific.

No wonder it shipped

[red crest]

alright i can completely understand why you call it evil then
so "inspired by" very surface-level-y because dont most (all) of the reactive frameworks under update if anything?? sometimes its a pain to get something to update because it aint doing it when i want it to lol

[safe dragon]

oh don't worry Blazor under updates anyway despite that

[red crest]

oh, okay

[hushed raven]

That seems like a contradition, I hate it so much already

[devout vault]

Is WASM tightly coupled with blazor, or could someone in theory write a different web system for C# using WASM?

[safe dragon]

because if state changes outside of user event handling then it doesn't do anything. Which is why there's a StateHasChanged() method you can call to force it to completely recalculate the component. Often if you don't watch out you end up sprinkling this everywhere in your blazor code and cause even more lag

[lyric bloom]

python's csv dictReader keeps spacing in the headers in the field names, which is ugly

you can only strip it from the start of the field name.

this brought to you by my automation homework.

[red crest]

so analogous to someone just adding Content Patcher's Patch Update function as a trigger action instead of relying on its update context cycle, which as we all know is a terrible idea

[safe dragon]

I don't believe it's strongly tied to blazor no

[fleet wren]

WASM is just a binary code format, you can roll your own from scratch if you want

[lyric bloom]

this vaguely reminds me of looking at some of the python react framework stuff when I was working on that

(although, not well, as python isn't really meant to be real-time.)**

[safe dragon]

react is often criticized for not being particularly great at handling state changes but they're doing a phenomenal job compared to Blazor

[lyric bloom]

** I mean like django, there are real-time python web frameworks meant to be ran on server software to replace javascript.

[safe dragon]

There are many other issues with blazor

but uh

I gotta go to bed

[lyric bloom]

woof. That sounds terrible

[safe dragon]

use svelte or solidjs y'all don't use blazor

[red crest]

god i hated django

alternatively just use svelte its clearly the best and im not at all biased by the fact that ive never used solidjs

[fleet wren]

hmm solidjs is a new one (admittedly I've kinda tuned out from the Ecosystem™)

back in my days Vue was the new hotness

[safe dragon]

(I'll leave y'all with a fun fact that blazor is terrible at handling exceptions, especially blazor server. When anything anything throws an exception the entire website essentially crashes and anything interactive ceases to work and you get a built in banner at the bottom saying something went wrong with a reload anchor link. There are error boundaries to try and catch and handle exceptions but they are rather unreliable)

the something went wrong reload banner is honestly a blazor classic

I've seen it on microsoft's own websites

[red crest]

Astro is also a newer one i think that I used somewhat recentlyish but not for anything complex but it seemed idk competent i guess

[devout vault]

Was it blazor that I ranted about unit testing for in the past

[safe dragon]

blazor unit testing LMAO

[devout vault]

Like, a year to a year and a half ago

[devout vault]

I’ll take that to mean “probably”

[safe dragon]

I sure hope your blazor code contains no javascript interop because that cannot be tested

[devout vault]

Ours didn’t, my issue was different (I think)

[safe dragon]

we decided to simply give up on testing blazor outside of e2e selenium tests

[cinder karma]

Django

[devout vault]

Ah, technically it was azure

#programmers-off-topic message

And no ranting here that I could find

Maybe because it was work related

Tl:dr; I found an issue on a MS github which had been open for years with many people having the same problem

And no amount of reflection crimes (which would have been allowed at work anyways, probably) was able to fix it

[safe dragon]

ah I wasn't quite as disillusioned on Blazor back then look how I'm vaguely positive

[lyric bloom]

I didn't really like django, much, either. The built in db to object stuff is nice, but

it was a class assignment to make a real time clock in django + html

even though you would normally just use js. :V

[red crest]

why the hell would a real time clock need django

[lyric bloom]

it wouldn't

[red crest]

my condolences

[lyric bloom]

but that was the assignment. :V

[cinder karma]

Button you don't understand

You have to find a cesium clock

Ans beam data from that

[red crest]

is there a python package for that

[lyric bloom]

(my teacher was rying to teach us 'professional python programming')

[cinder karma]

No

[lyric bloom]

(you may get why I went 'uh... okay')

[red crest]

that seems oxymoronic

[lyric bloom]

I had to write an install.bat 😄

ah, that's right. I over-engineered it because it was a boring assignment elsewise.

I will say, though, if you are bound and determined to write a clock in python for the website, pyscript is there for you

[lethal walrus]

how do you change it..?

the reload meta tag??

[lyric bloom]

uh, no

one sec

async def clock():
    while True:
        await asyncio.sleep(0.05)
        ourClock.drawClock()

fut = asyncio.ensure_future(clock())

[lethal walrus]

oh is django frontend stuff too?

[lyric bloom]

nope. I had to use.. https://pyscript.com/

[lethal walrus]

ohh

[lyric bloom]

When I say I over-engineered, it involved learning this just so I could keep it within the django framework but

django does not play nice with pyscript for obvious reasons

"There is a new pyodide.ffi.jsnull reference which is the default type for JavaScrpt null: goodbye null to None implicit conversion, we are providing a pyscript.ffi.is_none(reference) to ease-out this distinction that works regardless of the runtime."

ooof

But it worked, eventually:

the trickiest bit was implementing, of all things, real-time switching

but were I to do it again:

i'd just do it in javascript

[cinder karma]

That is pretty

Weren't you the one doing a space based game like three years ago

[lyric bloom]

uh.. no

I know my limits very intensely, and game dev is one of them. I was working on a solar system generator, though

I want to get to back to that when I don't have other spare projects and a pretty intense course load. >_>

[steel kraken]

I can somewhat see that argument, but I'd rather one instance of chromium running on my computer not 20 due to electron.

PWA/Installable web apps solve most of the UX problems as it'll be a seperate window, separate icon on task bars and can be in application menus like start menu or what not.

Particularly on mobile I much prefer web apps using pwa patterns over native apps for all the privacy and security benefits

[fleet wren]

I have a position of "only Qt/GTK/etc are real GUIs" but I also haven't made a real GUI program in years and recognize that I am the old person shouting at clouds

[cinder karma]

Oh god qt

[fleet wren]

do you have experience/war stories

[dusty pollen]

there's also flask, right?

[marble jewel]

Has any Neovim+Obsidian users out there tried this out? https://github.com/epwalsh/obsidian.nvim

[cinder karma]

Flask is server, iro

[hushed raven]

I've used flask before, for a small carryalong digital encyclopedia anyone can connect to for when internet isn't available, it worked, but it was very janky, almost certainly to my own inability to use it properly, enjoyed using it though

[cinder karma]

I haven't touched qt in a literal decade I'm just still traumatized

God this book is so good

Yes I'm a shrill

If you ever lose hope for human kind just look at allll the progress medical science has made recently

[steel kraken]

I haven't seen a UI system that doesn't suck balls except web technologies.

particularly with the constraint of windows/macos/linux cross platform
and web technology is pretty much the only tech at all that can additionally do ios/android on top

I've used Tkinter in python in the past and it kinda sucks but is cross platform (but aint going on mobile)

I don't mind winforms in C#, and mono kinda makes it cross platform but not really (again not going near mobile)

but all of them are going to look bland and boring compared to what you can build in an hour with css

[hushed raven]

also a very good reason, css is also quite a lot simpler than tkinter (never used winforms so can't talk about it) and avalonia (imo)

[uncut seal]

I'm glad I was asleep during the web dev discussion, I only really learned the html+css+js stack 2 weeks ago. And don't even mention frameworks...

[lyric bloom]

I tried it but remember not liking it for some reason. YMMV there, honestly.

[lyric bloom]

I think when I had to build a GUI in tkinter I ended up just using a python module to webview it. >_>

[safe dragon]

it's funky how GUI toolkits are still so underdeveloped

even if you reasonably decide iOS actually doesn't exist to make things a lot easier for yourself

[hushed raven]

iOS and Mac don't exist to me at all regardless of any GUI toolkit (if I had one to test with I would try to support it but I would honestly rather not touch them with a 10 foot pole)

[hushed raven]

I'm trying to install a custom build of the Wine compat layer (not important but might be useful context) its written in C and I just got an error relating to this line:

ULONG true = 1;

to me this is an incredibly weird variable name to see, true being an unsigned long and not a bool is throwing me as I thought it would be reserved even though I think C uses TRUE as a bool , for anyone who knows C, is this a weird thing to do? or a totally normal thing that I don't have enough of an understanding to comprehend?
(It's the only instance of this in this 1.2k line file too so I have absolutely nothing to compare against and google hasn't brought up anything similar)

[steel kraken]

regular C didnt have an actual boolean type for a long time

[rain apex]

This is a normal thing to do and true/false is still just a macro in C psure

https://en.cppreference.com/w/c/header/stdbool

[devout vault]

KAR2 and amiibos preordered

(Well, three of the amiibos aren't coming out initially, so only preordered the other two)

[cinder karma]

That's so good

[devout vault]

So many eyes

[safe dragon]

average day for kirby

[modest steppe]

thx i hate it

[devout vault]

Eh, it’s better than ||human foot kirby||

[worn remnant]

old but evergreen https://muppetswithpeopleeyes.tumblr.com/

[supple ether]

a newer gimmick blog that I've been enjoying is counting-horses, which is a bot that finds words or phrases in a post that are also the names of racehorses

[worn remnant]

that's wonderful

on old twitter there was a bot called "stealth mountain" whose only job was to find people saying "sneak peak" and reply-correct them

[devout vault]

Reminds me of the one I've seen which does that with DNA and posts a picture of the matched animal/plant/whatever

I miss the era of novelty bots on reddit

Now it's the era of misinformation bots 😔

[supple ether]

hellsitegenetics! another good one

[devout vault]

My brain is still broken about this 15 minutes later

[fleet wren]

reddit purged like all the "gimmick" bots, now all that's left are reposter/commenter bots

the frontpage subs are all AI posting old posts with AI comments

[devout vault]

I thought it was "just" that the gimmick bot authors didn't pay for API access

[fleet wren]

yea, end result's the same

that whole api boycott debacle is still so damn funny because ultimately nothing changed

[devout vault]

Oh, but things did change

They instituted rules to prevent it from happening again

And will officially replace moderators on subreddits now

So, all the changes are strictly for the worse, but still

[safe dragon]

it did change one thing

I stopped using reddit

haven't used it since the api boycott

or really it's just that the app I liked stopped working and I had no interest in downloading their own shitty ass app

and I never used reddit on a computer to begin with

[devout vault]

I never use it on mobile

And only use old reddit

Old reddit being removed would probably be enough to get me to stop using it

[safe dragon]

I never really understood that

I don't think old reddit is all that nice

[frosty echo]

Doesn't need to be, to be better than new Reddit

[devout vault]

Yeah. and also I dislike change

[sand frost]

It’s got less ads and is less crash-y

[worn remnant]

old reddit is nicer for me in the ways i care about (faster, loads directly without optimizing for LCP, runs without javascript on) but those ways do not align with most people so i get why others don't care

[devout vault]

Ads? What are those?

I like being able to see so many posts on one page, and only expanding the ones I care about

[safe dragon]

reddit for me only served a purpose at the time to have something to do on my phone as I was out somewhere so I have essentially never browsed reddit on a computer before. I just end up there sometimes from search engines

on my phone I had almost all popular subreddits blacklisted

[worn remnant]

i spend almost no time on reddit if it can be avoided, but when i go there i'm always glad that old is still running

[sand frost]

Every time I scroll too far on new Reddit it crashes and reloads

This isn’t like huge amounts of scroll either

[devout vault]

I also have RES, which is nice for old reddit

(though some things, such as infinite scroll, I have disabled)

[safe dragon]

Reddit Egg Sandiwch

[sand frost]

How did you know i'm eating an egg sandwich

[devout vault]

I was eating pizza (without pepperoni 😔 )

[safe dragon]

btw I know it's rare these days but I like like a change youtube seems to have made where you can publish videos with multiple simultaneous authors

so you get like this

[devout vault]

I saw that recently, I like the idea too

[safe dragon]

and then it links to all the channels

I'd have to assume there's some revenue share system for it in the background but idk

[devout vault]

Don't have to worry about other people working on the video not getting subscribers from it

[devout vault]

I'd hope so

[devout vault]

TIL you can pin gists on your github profile, not just repositories

[safe dragon]

ah technology connections is back to rant about dishwasher pods

he's the reason I use powder

[worn remnant]

for me, running the water till it gets hot before turning on. game changer (USA)

[safe dragon]

yeah that makes no sense for me here in the EU

I mean I could, it just wouldn't do anything

[lucid sundial]

hi

gonna say this right now

I LOVE UR DISPLAY NAME

i thought u were a crumble cookie 💔

[safe dragon]

nice

thank u

alas I am human

[devout vault]

Wait do I need to hate those too, now

[safe dragon]

yeah

you should've been for a while now

this is his second video on them

[devout vault]

Can I have a tldw

[red crest]

isn't this the third, at least

[lucid sundial]

you...are?

oh, good to know, thought u was cookie or ~~cat ~~ owl pastry

[red crest]

or am I just thinking of dishwashers in general

[lucid sundial]

owl*

[safe dragon]

tldw:

1. the powder and the pods have the same stuff in them, just packed together and given some color, or even a dissolvable plastic film
2. being able to adjust the amount you use on what you are washing is beneficial
3. dishwashers are designed around 2 phases, a pre wash and a main wash. The dispenser doesn't open till the main wash which means with a pod the prewash is being done without any detergent at all making it notable less effectively. Powder allows you to put some of the powder outside of the dispenser for it to use during the prewash cycle allowing some of the oils/fats to flush away with the prewash water and be gone from the water when the main wash starts keeping the main wash water less dirty for longer

[devout vault]

Oh, I was afraid this was gonna go in some sort of "dishwasher pod DRM like HP printers and keurigs"

[safe dragon]

also the hot water thing is because in the US dishwashers are hooked up to the hot water tap and work with the assumption that the water initially supplied to them is hot. However the water in your pipes would've cooled down so it's highly beneficial to first run the faucet till hot water comes out so that the water used by the dishwasher is actually hot and not just the cold water that was already in the pipes

[worn remnant]

^ this, cannot stress enough how much difference hot water makes in the prewash cycle

[safe dragon]

in europe where 220/230V power is used the dishwashers are built with more powerful heating elements and generally aren't even connected to the hot water at all so it serves no purpose

[cinder karma]

https://youtu.be/DAX2_mPr9W8?si=66Clu0suwc4tYmd_

[worn remnant]

also 4. powder is generally cheaper than pods and gels, so it's both more effective and cost-effective

[safe dragon]

that's a tldr that all the videos are essentially based on

[cinder karma]

No effort November 🙁

[safe dragon]

hi atra we were already talking about that video

[cinder karma]

Man I wish I could put this much effort into something not my fay job

[safe dragon]

me too

[cinder karma]

Instead because I am incapable of counting I'll be eating from free McDonalds for dinner

Smh

[terse galleon]

what’s the proper way to use a dishwasher if your little door thing never opens? we’ve just been throwing a pod in the bottom before we start the cycle lol

[worn remnant]

if your door doesn't open, proper use is replace the dishwasher (or fix the door) i think /lh

[safe dragon]

well that means it's doing almost all the work during the prewash which it doesn't expect it should. It'd flush out all the detergent before starting the main wash

at which point it'd just be spraying around hot water

I'd say that's a defect dishwasher

of course you set an alarm for when the main wash begins and pull it open to throw in more dishwasher detergent for the main wash 🙏

a whole pod for the prewash is going to be wasteful in any case cause that's just going to be going down the drain

[terse galleon]

yeahhhh we need a whole new kitchen tbh but. money

[safe dragon]

if you're stuck with this system anyway, might as well save some money and not throw in a whole pod but just some powder...

[terse galleon]

taking notes 📝

[cinder karma]

Look up your dishwasher tbh

Or run a rinse cycle FIRST

Also fwiw tide pods are also bad for similar reasons

[devout vault]

i hear those are tasty

[safe dragon]

if you're not like me and run your dishwasher while you're awake you can do a rinse cycle first yeah and then do one of those short cycle washes that skip the prewash afterwards with the appropriate detergent for each

I know my dishwasher has a mode that skips the prewash

[cinder karma]

For mental health Reasons (yes really) i make my own laundry detergent

Detergent

[devout vault]

Huh, is deleting laundry good for mental health?

smh

You edited before I pressed enter

[safe dragon]

so sad

[devout vault]

https://tenor.com/view/mr-krabs-so-sad-small-violin-spongebob-gif-17423788

Wait that's a different clip than worlds smallest violin, isn't it

[safe dragon]

I haven't looked into it too much but my grocery store doesn't have any laundry detergent taht isn't either the pods or liquid

I believe that's a later scene in the same episode

[cinder karma]

(If you want to know why, it's because my meds are on the SJS list)

[safe dragon]

oh cool there is a company in the netherlands that does sell laundry detergent sheets instead of needing a gigantic hunk of plastic to house liquid detergent

oh it's a dutch company in fact

damn the first bad review I find on them is someone complaining that they don't add perfumes to the detergent

which is a good thing in my books

[devout vault]

Wild that someone's complaint about Substance That Removes Bad Things From Food Surfaces is "there aren't any Bad Things in my Substance"

[cinder karma]

(I just use washing soda, fels naptha, borax(

It's a common recipe for homemade

[safe dragon]

wtf

this is a dutch website and it's also like 4 weeks months from black friday

wow this website has shown me like 3 terrible manipulative sales tactics within like two minutes

a sales timer, a "personal discount finder" and then some forced package deal where you're required to buy another product with it for the discount to apply

man

the internet is a wonderful place

this website seemingly only exists to review detergents

[devout vault]

.choose actually do something, flounder around instead

[heavy dagger]

Choose result: flounder around instead

[devout vault]

wooooooo

Take that, productivity

[safe dragon]

gratz

[cinder karma]

Should I get a free hat

[devout vault]

What kind of hat

[cinder karma]

Tmobile beanie

Also

[devout vault]

Hmm

[cinder karma]

Go pet Mozart for me 😛

[devout vault]

On one hand, free hat.

On the other hand, boring hat

[devout vault]

If you insist

[cinder karma]

Such an adorable kitty

[devout vault]

I don't think he appreciated being woken up

[cinder karma]

Beautiful eyes

Sorry!

[devout vault]

He is now on desk

Another reason to not be productive

[cinder karma]

It's a free hat. I could claim it and donate it

[devout vault]

He turned to nuzzle the phone when I tried to get a new picture

[devout vault]

plz no mozart

[safe dragon]

ah yes because I'm ordering detergent sheets it's recommending a lego ninjago box set

thank u I guess someone before me decided to buy some toys while they were ordering detergent

[cinder karma]

Actually I should ask you guys

What would YOU do with a $10 best buy giftcard

[safe dragon]

forget I have it and then find it 5 years later while cleaning

well damn I've never had this happen before, A product sold out within the time it took me to order

[devout vault]

Should've listened to the manipulative sales tactics, smh

[safe dragon]

oh no I left that website immediately

[devout vault]

Holy clickbait, Batman

(On Facebook, the mother of all clickbait, of course)

[safe dragon]

Curiouse to know

[cinder karma]

Update: did get a free hat

[prisma flume]

i trust any and all facts that COME WITH TEXT THAT HAS EVERY OTHER WORD HIGHLIGHTED IN DIFFERENT COLOURS

[devout vault]

It’s not very well known, but normally it’s just that Einsteins police catch all the particles that break einsteins laws. The police didn’t catch them in time this go around, hence the big deal

[lyric bloom]

"Huh, that's weird, why is the chinese translation some 40kb larger.."

    "MyoldfriendsE2.title": "\u4e0d\u60f3\u63a5",
    "MyoldfriendsE2.text": "@\uff01^^\u4eca\u5929\u9047\u5230\u4e2a\u633a\u6709\u610f\u601d\u7684\u6848\u5b50\uff0c\u67d0\u660e\u661f\u56e0\u4e3a\u88ab\u7f51\u53cb\u7206\u6599\u5077\u7a0e\u6f0f\u7a0e\uff0c\u60f3\u627e\u6211\u6253\u540d\u8a89\u6743\u5b98\u53f8\u3002^\u8bf4\u5b9e\u8bdd\uff0c\u8bc1\u636e\u90fd\u6446\u5728\u90a3\u513f\u4e86\uff0c\u5979\u786e\u5b9e\u5e72\u4e86\u8fd9\u4e8b\u3002\u6211\u53ef\u4e0d\u60f3\u63a5\u8fd9\u79cd\u660e\u77e5\u5fc5\u8f93\u7684\u70c2\u6848\u5b50\uff0c\u6d6a\u8d39\u65f6\u95f4\u8fd8\u8d25\u574f\u6211\u7684\u540d\u58f0\u3002^\u8bdd\u8bf4\u56de\u6765,\u4f60\u7684\u519c\u573a\u600e\u4e48\u6837\u4e86?\u522b\u544a\u8bc9\u6211\u4f60\u8fd8\u5728\u79cd\u571f\u8c46\u3002\u8be5\u6362\u70b9\u6311\u6218\u4e86,\u4f19\u8ba1!^^\u4f0a\u6851",
    "MyoldfriendsE3.title": "\u60f3\u9493\u9c7c",

... which is weird, because I read in utf-8

time to investigate

The culprit was that I didn't write in utf-8

.. no that's not it.

hm

[dusty pollen]

does utf-8 include chinese characters? as a sanity check

[pliant snow]

I had a pedantic answer typed out, but the answer is yes, utf-8 is used for chinese characters

[devout vault]

Well now I’m curious

[dusty pollen]

I forgot for a second that that’s a much less well defined set than alphabets tbf

[cinder karma]

Yes lol

[pliant snow]

actually my pedantic rant may not have been correct, so I was right to retract it

[cinder karma]

Now I want to hear it

Please.

Entertain me. I have 10 minutes of stairmaster left

And my headset died

[dusty pollen]

maybe try something like

# Source - https://stackoverflow.com/questions/31207287/converting-utf-16-to-utf-8
# Posted by Tim Pietzcker
# Retrieved 05/11/2025, License - CC-BY-SA 4.0

In [13]: s.decode("utf-16be").encode("utf-8")

?

[worn remnant]

sakorona's text isn't utf-16 though, it's json-escape-encoded

[rain apex]

i dont think this is an actual problem in game

[worn remnant]

it probably works fine, it's just not legible in the json

[rain apex]

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/18337407/saving-utf-8-texts-with-json-dumps-as-utf-8-not-as-a-u-escape-sequence

wow this stack overflow post is in grade 6

[dusty pollen]

hebrew jumpscare

[cinder karma]

So older than. Iro right

[dusty pollen]

by about ten years, yes

[cinder karma]

The stack overflow post is ten years old r than you are?

[devout vault]

No, clearly Hebrew is ten years older than iro. Iro is unfathomably old, you see

(Autocorrect tried to do unfathomably -> unfashionably. Take that as you will.)

[lyric bloom]

ah, thanks for that

the game might work fine, but I prefer that any one who might get a hold of it be able to hand edit the json

 "MyoldfriendsE1.title": "想写信",
    "MyoldfriendsE1.text": "@！^^嘿，伙计！搬到鹈鹕镇的第一天感觉如何？有没有想我啊？哈哈，别担心，我会时不时给你写信，不会让你“与世隔绝”的。^乡下的空气应该很新鲜吧，但别忘了，身体是革命的本钱，别整天忙着种地，该吃饭吃饭，该休息休息！^加油，保持活力四射的状态！记得给我回信！^^伊桑",

yep, that was it, just needed to add the flag to json.dump()

[steel kraken]

my version of the pedantic answer, Unicode is conceptually two different things, the actual encoding/decoding of bytes, and then there is the conceptual unicode codepoints themselves.

all the unicode encodings should be able to express the full unicode range, and when a unicode codepoint cannot be expressed in a single encoded character/code unit, there are reserved characters to encode that unicode codepoint across multiple characters.

UTF-16 is 2 byte characters (with disagreements as to whether its big endian or little endian) but there are ~160k code points/characters
UTF-32 exists which can express all codepoints directly in a single semantic character, but for english is 4x the size for no good reason
UTF-8 is the magic sauce where for standard ascii it can be encoded in a single byte still (U+0000 to U+0127) and for codepoints >128 it can be split across multiple characters to encode the code point.

Though there are still extremes like 👨🏾‍🧑🏻‍👦‍🧒🏽 which is 37 bytes on its own in utf-8, 40 bytes in utf-32 and 34 bytes in UTF-16 due to the fact that character is semantically ~10 code points to describe the 4 people, a join codepoint and then additional suffixes to define the skin colours

[safe dragon]

well uh good morning

[safe dragon]

I've been looking into programming languages in preparation for AoC and I was reminded of Jai

didn't even know programming languages could have closed betas, but Jai has seemingly been in one for many years

[hushed raven]

That's certainly a new concept to me for sure, I did quickly look up Jai and it seems to be predominantly for Games?

[safe dragon]

yeah it's Jonathan Blow's language that he made after being frustrated by C++

[cyan shadow]

I looked it up and now I have questions™

[safe dragon]

one of the large category of languages "made cause C++ has issues"

[cyan shadow]

Interesting.

[safe dragon]

damn no Microsoft takeover

[hushed raven]

If a language doesn't have issues, there's a good chance I won't be using it, it gives me a feeling of distrust for certain XD

[safe dragon]

I was actually looking at Odin but then Jai got mentioned and I decided to look up if it has finally left the beta

[hushed raven]

I feel like I have an idea of what embrace, extend, extinguish means? Big companies adding more features rendering the original program more or less not as good as the newer one?

[frosty echo]

"Embrace, extend, and extinguish" (EEE), also known as "embrace, extend, and exterminate", is a phrase that the U.S. Department of Justice found was used internally by Microsoft to describe its strategy for entering product categories involving widely used open standards, extending those standards with proprietary capabilities, and using the differences to strongly disadvantage its competitors. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Embrace,_extend,_and_extinguish

[safe dragon]

it's a Microsoft strategy yeah

[hushed raven]

Ahh, really backhanded practices then, although I don't expect anything less of Microsoft

[cinder karma]

Yesterday, I walked into a T-Mobile store

I did not tell them my name or anything. My entire interaction was "hi I'm here for the free hat."

Today I get an email asking for my review of the service there....

I get how they knew i was there but lol

That's...a bit creepy, huh

[hushed raven]

That's exceptionally creepy if you gave no identifying info, how cursed

[devout vault]

See now I'm curious about Jai, but why bother if I can't even try it

[worn remnant]

seizing another opportunity for one of my favorite quotes:
"there are only two problems with C++: the initial concept, and the execution."

[uncut seal]

I recommend uiua. Don't know if it's still maintained but it was fun to play with

[uncut seal]

is that even a thing in the first place? doesn't sound possible to me

[dusty pollen]

holyC doesn’t have issues because it’s free of sin

[uncut seal]

fair enough lmao

[safe dragon]

uiua still gets updates yeah

believe it or not I've already done AoC days in uiua

I don't understand the appeal of array programming languages beyond funky code golf

[fleet wren]

ah darn another year passed by already (re: the advent of code talk)

[fleet wren]

as we all know Rust is perfect and has no flaws

[safe dragon]

yup

hides async traits

[fleet wren]

whats is this ay-zinc, can you eat it

[safe dragon]

I don't recommend it

I might try Odin for AoC this year

dip my toes into manual memory management

[fleet wren]

I keep mixing up Jai, Odin and Beef

all three are C/C++ replacements made by game devs (current or former) who got annoyed working with C++

[safe dragon]

Beef definitely wins when it comes to the name

[fleet wren]

need a fork called Pork

it even rhymes

ok for future me's reference Jai is the one that's closed source and written by Jonathan Blow

[cinder karma]

...zig, anyone?

[devout vault]

Good thing I wasn't here for a bit, almost had to go get more crab repellant

[fleet wren]

Zig's too mainstream now

it's a rule that you only use the most hipster of languages for AOC

[cinder karma]

Well I'm not a game dev so

[devout vault]

What's so special about Jai anyways

[fleet wren]

a lot of it is morbid fascination with Jonathan Blow's unending ego

[devout vault]

The name rings a bell, but nothing beyond that

[fleet wren]

consider yourself lucky

[devout vault]

I mean I bet I've heard stuff before, just can't recall it

[rain apex]

Let's make C

The main feature is that all operators are mr ape wingdings

[devout vault]

saves that idea for [REDACTED]

[fleet wren]

tl;dr a pretentious egotist who thinks that games are art, and that he's the only artist left in the scene. if you don't think that his game are the highest expression of arts then you're a plebian that offended him personally. he also has a bunch of terrible personal views but that's kinda par for the course

[devout vault]

I mean that first part can be true

But the rest of it... huh

Wait is that the guy who made godus or whatever it was called

No

Oh he made one of those games when indie games really took off that I never actually tried (Braid)

He also said the language would be relatively easy to create compared to creating a game like The Witness.
(from wikipedia)

but he started it in 2014?????

[fleet wren]

yeah tbh I loved Braid, I think it's one of the most creative platformers I played

[worn remnant]

i only want to add that games are art, but not in the hipster way that people picture when they hear "games are art"

[devout vault]

What's the hipster way that people picture

[marble jewel]

But is art, art?

[worn remnant]

and not in the way that roger ebert wrote that awful op-ed response about, where he said that they're not

[devout vault]

Is the hipster way meaning "always, like museum pieces"?

[worn remnant]

yeah, like the snooty museum way i guess

[devout vault]

Huh

[fleet wren]

but The Witness is when he started to huff his own fumes a little too much

[devout vault]

That's kinda silly/insulting to the many many many many many people who make art that isn't in a museum

And don't have some grand meaning behind their work

also ignores some of the more sketchy aspects of some museum art pieces

[safe dragon]

I dislike jonathan blow purely because youtube's recommended feed wanted me to consider him to be some messenger from the programming gods to tell us the Truth

[hushed raven]

He made The Witness? I quite liked it as a puzzle game, couldn't care for the story but that entirely was BC I wasn't too interested with it to start with I think

[worn remnant]

i'm not sure if you're trying to disagree with me but i am trying to say the same thing as this. art doesn't have to be museum art to be art

[devout vault]

Really? Youtube tried to tell me that was the pirate software guy

[safe dragon]

somehow jonathan blow has fared better than him

[devout vault]

I'm not disagreeing, I was talking about the hipster way

[worn remnant]

ok phew

i guess also what i meant by the hipster thing is like, trying to get in arguments about it. like "games are art, man, you just don't understand"

[hushed raven]

I have a decent displeasure of always being recommended his videos when I could not care less, there's so much tat on there that I never realised until I learned more about certain things and realised some of the stuff he says is full of it

[marble jewel]

Games are art until too many people appreciate it, then it's just mainstream garbage

[devout vault]

If games are all museum-level art, what about game mods? Why hasn't Spenny been displayed in a museum yet?

[worn remnant]

braid is genuinely good and i really liked it but ||fuck that one secret thing in particular where you have to get on a cloud and wait for like a literal hour for it to move far enough so you can reach the thing||

[safe dragon]

a modding reference I understand!

[devout vault]

[marble jewel]

Alternatively

I've played some artistic games, you probably haven't heard of them

[hushed raven]

Ew not the gatekeeping, it happens much too often

[safe dragon]

the witness is mainstream garbage, now the Looker is art

[fleet wren]

lmao back when I played it I just ||left my laptop on for an hour and went outside||

[devout vault]

We need a system for making the Witness not-mainstream and protecting it from being corrupted. We'll call it... the witness protection program.

[dusty pollen]

ceci n’est pas une pipe art

[devout vault]

Ah, that game must be a true work of art if it can make gamers go touch grass

[dusty pollen]

are you saying pokemon go is the masterpiece of our generation

[devout vault]

I have literally only ever had a single game idea that I would consider artistic (rather than "oh this sounds like a fun game to make and play")

[devout vault]

too mainstream

Plus all the features they added to where you can avoid going outside during covid

[dusty pollen]

tbh when people talk about games as art I usually interpret it as games that take themselves seriously, have good aesthetics and make you feel things

[devout vault]

When politicians start making jokes about a game and its name, you know its too mainstream

[devout vault]

In this instance I specifically mean "has an intended meaning/message behind it"

[dusty pollen]

I guess that can be considered one of the traits but I feel like people can also call those vague, open ended games art too

so for me it’s more about “makes you feel something”

[devout vault]

Yeah, I just meant as far as the game ideas I've had

[dusty pollen]

ohh I see

[fleet wren]

yeah, the mainstream conversation around games as art almost always revolve around games like The Last of Us or God of War

[devout vault]

Literally every other idea I've had has been "oh this would be cool"

[dusty pollen]

I was literally thinking of the last of us when I wrote that lmao

[marble jewel]

The thing about most art is that the meaning evolves beyond the artists original intention/interpretation

[devout vault]

I've never played either of those

[dusty pollen]

ig the least important is taking itself seriously because you could definitely consider stanley parable to be art

[fleet wren]

but art takes many forms, and imo games that take the gameplay loop creatively and engage with the player qualifies just as much if not even more

[devout vault]

||broom closet ending is goated||

[worn remnant]

i think every game is art, even licensed shovelware and mobile cash extraction traps

[dusty pollen]

me either but I know just enough about the last of us to know it’s treated as art

[marble jewel]

So whether something was built for a deeper purpose or not does not exclude it from evolving into art

[worn remnant]

(not all art is good or worthwhile)

[devout vault]

Yeah, that makes sense.

[dusty pollen]

tbh I’ve always liked this interpretation the most too. a crayon stick figure is art

[devout vault]

oh god, I didn't even realize ichor popped in

[fleet wren]

it doesn't help that the creator of the TLOU show thought that games didn't have engaging plots or complex gameplay before TLOU I have been informed this was a misleading meme and now I hate reddit even more

[worn remnant]

aside: "cash extraction traps" is an excellent tongue-twister

[devout vault]

It took iro talking to themself (seemingly) for me to realize

[dusty pollen]

but people tend to talk about art and Art differently

[marble jewel]

How about aRt or ArT?

[devout vault]

A big part of what I meant with this about my ideas was about my intent. Like I said, most of my ideas are just "this would be neat", which doesn't disqualify them, but does make that one idea pretty distinct from the rest

[dusty pollen]

(lowercase art I consider to be “anything made primarily for aesthetic value/communication, regardless of quality”)

[devout vault]

If something is made precisely to be terrible aesthetic value/communication, is it still just art, or is it now Art because that was the intention?

[dusty pollen]

it’s art regardless, but it’s only Art if a redditor redditsplains the true meaning to you

[paper mason]

As a game artist whose worked with friends and groups to make games, both small and shitty ones to more elaborate projects with some soul, I think all games are art. Its a bunch of artists coming together and making a piece together. And that doesn't mean you have to like all of them, I don't like a lot of art or artstyles and can feel they lack meaning but it's still art and can/should be analysed as thus. But it's also a fun discussion, "whats considered art" is a question thats been around basically as long as art has been its own term and thing, But yeah personally, all games are art but if they speak to your specifically (or anyone, really) is another question.

[devout vault]

This is programming-off-topic, not art-off-topic. Nobody let the junimos know

[devout vault]

I would joke about adding that to a life goal list, but I don't think redditors redditplaining your work is something any person should aspire to

(I say as someone who pretty much exclusively uses reddit as far as social media goes discord doesn't count)

[dusty pollen]

absolutely, imo the only useful application of the more limited Art definition is to make fun of pretentious critics

[devout vault]

On a very tangentially related note, anyone still keeping up with the Hytale stuff?

[fleet wren]

yeah I was mainly side eyeing the people who thought that games as art can only be traditional heart-wrenching narrative experiences which was not the TLOU show runner that was a shitty reddit meme

[devout vault]

(spoilered for hopium/copium dosage)

[cinder karma]

Ni

what's hytale

Is that Nintendo

[devout vault]

No

Sorta minecraft adjacent, announced a while ago, got cancelled more recently, original founder is trying to bring it back now

even atra would know what Minecraft is in a vague sense, right?

didn't the lawyers play minecraft at one point

[dusty pollen]

I’m with you, and it’s specifically the critics! because there’s nothing wrong with MAKING those games, it’s just putting them on a pedestal that’s annoying

[safe dragon]

atra might know what minecraft is but that doesn't mean it wouldn't be funny if they pretended they didn't

[devout vault]

But how can atra not know about what the children yearn for? 😔

[safe dragon]

children yearn for roblox now

[devout vault]

Then why do YT shorts that only read some random tumblr post still often have MC parkour as the background video?

Checkmate, robloxians

[safe dragon]

despite how it looks that's for people in their late teens and 20s

that's why it's paired with Tumblr memes

[devout vault]

Hmm. That checks out

On the other hand, I played roblox a bit before MC even existed

lua horror flashbacks

[cinder karma]

I know what Microsoft is!

[uncut seal]

those are the reason why I have extensions to hide all shorts. I would lose multiple hours per day watching this shit

[uncut seal]

yup, that's me

[cinder karma]

What is tumblr

[safe dragon]

[lyric bloom]

Sadness

[worn remnant]

*crash* a miserable little-- (i am pulled offstage by a giant hook)

[modest jewel]

So... how do u get mods

[lethal bobcat]

!gs if you mean mods for stardew! this is probably the wrong channel though, you’ll want #modded-stardew

[indigo mist]

If you would like a guide to setting up mods for Stardew Valley, check out the getting started guide! https://stardewvalleywiki.com/Modding:Player_Guide

To use this command, type !gs.

[cinder karma]

Joy is fighting computers

[cinder karma]

My head hurts but I won

[supple ether]

Minecraft is the second best selling video game of all time IIRC so I imagine most people have at least heard of it

[devout vault]

Yes, and also

[devout vault]

this

(I don't recall much about who "the lawyers" are, besides atra having mentioned them before)

Apparently the cat has developed telekinesis, as he was a few inches away from keyboard when he did this

[cinder karma]

The lawyers are lawyers

[lethal walrus]

I think he's trying to say:3

[devout vault]

That seems likely, yeah

[cinder karma]

And atra can name more supreme court cases than video games

To be fair

Atra also doesnt know ehat a video game is

[devout vault]

I mean, we could probably get very philosophical about that question (in the same way as "what is art", as discussed earlier)

[cinder karma]

Supreme Court cases are much less philosophical

....btw what is the first grossing video game then

[lethal walrus]

I thought minecraft hit #1

[devout vault]

I really don't understand how that list is decided

(I'm sure the wikipedia page goes into detail)

Like, why are Mario Kart 8 and Deluxe not separate?

[lethal walrus]

It's Mario kart 8 deluxe

Same game just including dlc and put onto the switch

[devout vault]

I get that but it still feels weird to me

Just like Minecraft Bedrock vs Java edition have substantial enough differences (even not counting modding) that they kinda feel separate, to me

Even ignoring that in particular - older non-PC MC editions probably are counted there too

[cinder karma]

What's a "game"

[devout vault]

Original Pocket edition is hardly comparable to PC MC

[cinder karma]

Is it like a ship of theseus

[lethal walrus]

Imagine stardew valley

[lethal walrus]

I guess

[cinder karma]

Is stardew 1.0 and stardew 1.6 the same game by thos metrics

[devout vault]

I'd say yes, considering:

• 1.6 is just a bunch of updates on top of 1.0
• MC original pocket edition was released after MC was well established, but changed a bunch of core stuff (no infinite world gen, no nether, bunch of other gameplay stuff)

[lethal walrus]

Neither is infinite just non-java is much reduced

[devout vault]

I mean, technically yeah.

But from a practical perspective, you kinda have to seek out the end of the world on java

[lethal walrus]

Suppose so

[terse galleon]

sometimes i miss the simplicity of MC PE. my sister and i would generate a world and slowly fill the whole thing until we'd covered the map

[devout vault]

Non-infinite worlds are underrated, that's for sure

glances at my "framework for fixed size world generation" mod idea for MC

(because you kinda want to guarantee everything is obtainable within a fixed size world)

[fleet wren]

hmm, quite an interesting question in the era of live service games

[safe dragon]

exciting start to trying out the odin programming language. The LSP got stuck in a loop somewhere and completely froze my entire pc

[fleet wren]

probably 0 people here have heard of Overwatch, but the debate around Overwatch vs Overwatch 2 was quite lively

Wikipedia decided that Overwatch 2 warrants a separate article, while TvTropes the superior source doesn't bother

[safe dragon]

of course I know overwatch

it's the cheating prevention system in CS:GO

overwatch 2 really isn't a new game

it was supposed to be

and then they scrapped every new feature

[cinder karma]

Crumble

What is your aoc language

[safe dragon]

idk I was messing around with odin to maybe use that

but the language server crashing my pc has put a damper on that

[cinder karma]

I'm thinking zig

I wanna be one of the cool kids

[red crest]

im curious about the world you live in where Overwatch was some unknown indie gem apparently

[safe dragon]

I am also considering zig

but still going through my options

[cinder karma]

I don't know ehat overwatch is

(As much as I joke this one is sincere)

[safe dragon]

a shooter game made by the world of warcraft people

[fleet wren]

I mean among the ppl frequenting this channel

[red crest]

i stand by my sentence

[fleet wren]

though atra may have biased me on that

[safe dragon]

other than atra I think we are all fairly knowledgeable about games

[red crest]

literally #12 on that best selling games of all time wiki list

i dont factor atra into my equations at all here

[tranquil grove]

overwatch was fun to play because there was a very popular streamer named esca, apparently, so people would just type "ESCA" in chat every match

[devout vault]

I had the same question when I saw selph's message

[safe dragon]

hidden gems like minecraft and tetris

[devout vault]

oh look it's world reknown streamer esca hiiiiii

[red crest]

selph does not have their finger on the pulse of the channel

(/lh)

[fleet wren]

help im being bullied

[devout vault]

(but also I can't tell how much of this is a joke and how much is only partially a joke)

[tranquil grove]

(actually by streamer i mean esports person? I haven't thought about esports since I stopped playing overwatch, so)

but no, I just named myself esca in-game like usual & learned that one of the competitive people was also named that

[devout vault]

Ah

So much for the sudden esca deep lore reveal 😔

(Still a lore reveal, just not a deep lore reveal)

[tranquil grove]

I was like, above-average esports rank but I hate trying to be good at pvp games

so not the esca they meant

[cinder karma]

I'm so sorry

So

Ntsb?

I'm watching the ntsb press conference on ups

[fleet wren]

just to clarify this is 150% a joke
~~I can't tell if the hug emojis + atra's message is serious ~~

what emotion conveys anyway I used it because it looks funny

[devout vault]

Clearly, it's but reincarnated after

[tranquil grove]

(as the other 🫂-er, I assumed it was unserious) (and idk about that one either)

[devout vault]

(I would say "most people here probably don't remember nukebox" but this channel has a higher density of long time members...)

[cinder karma]

What is nukebox

[cinder karma]

(I took it seriously)

[devout vault]

olde server lore

(gus was the jukebox bot for VC, but it wasn't hosted by the junimos. bot got compromised, and banned tons of people)

[cinder karma]

Before my time

I'm so tired

[tranquil grove]

I was here but never used the bot & didn't get nuked, ig

[devout vault]

Same (re:Esca)

[tranquil grove]

do vaguely recall it existing before w/e mini-jukebox is

[fleet wren]

I've always known Gus has the capacity for evil

no one could be that nice

[tranquil grove]

he does harass me every time I test something on my actual personal save
it predates the jukebox being added, so I got that slow-to-skip event every time

[cinder karma]

The jukebox wasn't in stardew 1.0?

[devout vault]

Mini jukebox wasn't at least

[tranquil grove]

yeah, 1.4 apparently

I played in 1.2 solo and 1.3 coop or some such

[devout vault]

I played in 1.07

[cinder karma]

I played 1.5.6

[tranquil grove]

back in my day something something integer item IDs

[safe dragon]

good times

[devout vault]

"how old is that"
Some highlights:

• There was only the default farm map available.
• The return scepter was not obtainable.
• No catalogue/furniture catalogue
• No divorce
• Shane and Emily could not be married
  And that's exclusively stuff that arrived in 1.1

[tranquil grove]

(ig casey's the one who gets to call seniority on items )
(I, uh, briefly invented non-farm resource clumps? yeah that)

[devout vault]

(a bunch of other stuff too, of course, just picked out some of the most "that didn't used to exist????" stuff)

[safe dragon]

on rare occassions I end up watching a video about sdv and realize like 80% of everything they're doing is stuff that did not exist when I played

[devout vault]

I might've started playing earlier than 1.07 actually, but that was when I stopped playing my original save

(Like, triggering grandpa reevaluation was apparently 1.05, but I remember that being added after I started and going like "huh, I got all 4 candles on first try")

[safe dragon]

I started a few minutes after the game released

[tranquil grove]

thinking about it now, I'm not sure I ever knew-knew that the game had a single farm at launch

[devout vault]

(I mean I can call seniority on a lot of things in modding land.)

[safe dragon]

I joined the raffle for like an hour early access to the game but then lost so I had to wait for the release

[devout vault]

Even back then, half my modding was just to see what I could break and/or do things people said wasn't doable.

[safe dragon]

oterion/oats (someone in this server) did win that raffle the bastard

got to play before launch

all scrubs compared to sirithre who was a beta tester

I was pretty jealous

[devout vault]

I was one of the first 1000 members on the server according to uberbot back then. (Not that it would show that now since I left during a couple of the hiatuses)

[safe dragon]

going from oat's rank since he never left and me joining a few days before him I'd be like join position 3 or something now

alas I've left twice

I think the first one is twisted, one of the original admins

hmm did uber change how it checks this

the join positions were definitely lower before

[devout vault]

Well it definitely didn't suddenly remember people who have left then rejoined at some point, seeing as I'm still 160k

[safe dragon]

yeah same

[cinder karma]

More on topic for the off topic

[safe dragon]

a mystery

[supple ether]

The big one people always seem to forget is multiplayer

[devout vault]

Yeah, though I was talking about only 1.1 there

[supple ether]

That's fair