programmers-off-topic

[devout vault]

Hmm, yes, that looks totally correct for 6 billboards (one each direction per axis) that should have the camera as their center point

Now that I've revealed what I'm working on I should technically go to #making-mods-general , but that's scary.

And also incredibly nonsensical to most people people who frequent there

(Compared to people here, who are all experts on 3d rendering)

(every single one (except me))

[dusty pollen]

make a thread there

[dusty pollen]

how far away are they from the origin? and are you still translated 10 along the y axis?

[devout vault]

Good idea, then only those present right now would notice. (Or those who look at the thread list)

https://discord.com/channels/137344473976799233/1414326612215992446

[hushed raven]

@vagrant basalt RE: Symlink Shinanaganery
Symlinking files works fine, just not folders,
Symlink source: "S:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Stardew Valley\ModTesting\{LinkMods}\FashionSense"

Symlink Dest: "S:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Stardew Valley\ModTesting\FashionSense Packs"
Where FashionSense Packs is a Symlink to
"D:\Coding\Stardew Mods\StardewMods\FashionSense Packs"

I know symlinks in symlinks work, I've used them previously nested together

[vagrant basalt]

I think I'm lost. You're trying to put a symlink to "S:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Stardew Valley\ModTesting\{LinkMods}\FashionSense" inside...another symlink?

Why not just put a link from "D:\Coding\Stardew Mods\StardewMods\FashionSense Packs" into "S:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Stardew Valley\ModTesting?

[hushed raven]

That is what I've done, however in the D:\...\FashionSense Packs there is another symlink to S:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Stardew Valley\ModTesting\{LinkMods}\FashionSense

[vagrant basalt]

Whatever you're doing looks much more complex than what I do. I do things like:

Actual mod location where I work on the mod and sync to GitHub, I pick this as my source: D:\Games\Steam\steamapps\common\Stardew Valley - 1.6.15\ModDev\AbaStardewModsPrivate\[CP] AbaAnimalMuseum

Mods folder for when I run the game, I pick this as my destination: D:\Games\Steam\steamapps\common\Stardew Valley - 1.6.15\Mods-Dev\AbaMods <- this is where my symlink goes

[vagrant basalt]

But then aren't you linking back into your source? If you're going {LinkMods}\FashionSense -> ModTesting\FashionSense Packs -> StardewMods\FashionSense Packs -> {LinkMods}\FashionSense then you are creating a cycle.

[hushed raven]

The thing is I want to avoid having multiple copies of core mods (Like Content Patcher or Fashion Sense) that are different versions in different files, I'm trying to make it so that I just update the simgular Core mod and it propergates to the symlinks

[vagrant basalt]

Yup that's what I do...without your very complex multi-symlinking

[hushed raven]

{LinkMods}\FashionSense -> ModTesting\FashionSense Packs -> StardewMods\FashionSense Packs ~~-> {LinkMods}\FashionSense ~~ << This is what I'm doing, without that last link

[vagrant basalt]

This is the location of the actual mods. I update them using Stardrop.

This is one of my actual Mods folders. You can see it has a Dependencies folder. Inside that folder are symlinks to the actual mods that are inside my pufferchick dependencies folder.

[vagrant basalt]

Does that mean you misspoke when you said this?

(Sorry if I am being very obtuse. I am in my lowest energy and therefore brainpower part of my day)

[hushed raven]

Okay so I've just re done it, exactly the same as last time (define madness I know) but it's actually worked now, so either I got my file paths mixed up, or the symlink source wasn't cleared, I certainly know which is more likely

[hushed raven]

No worries at all, I think what's happened is I didn't communicate it well enough to avoid confusion

What you said:

{LinkMods}\FashionSense -> ModTesting\FashionSense Packs
Is the same as I described with this:
in the D:\...\FashionSense Packs there is another symlink to S:\SteamLibrary\steamapps\common\Stardew Valley\ModTesting\{LinkMods}\FashionSense

But I should've used arrows to avoid the confusion and make it clearer that we were both navigating deeper into the file path

[vagrant basalt]

I am still kind of lost but it's working for you so hooray lol

[steel kraken]

any reason to do any of it at all and just use stardrop that already points smapi to a mod folder that is full of symlinks for the enabled mods?

[safe dragon]

damn

[sonic mirage]

bean's place is starting to look like a leafy TGIFridays

[cinder karma]

I'm not sure i know what a tgifriday is

I also have this

[sonic mirage]

https://dynamic-media-cdn.tripadvisor.com/media/photo-o/03/c5/68/06/tgi-friday-s.jpg

or at least the walls used to be covered with shenanigans like that. Last time I was in one it was just normal sparse walls with a few things on them like normal restaurants. However the one nearest me closed down a little after the pandemic anyways

[cyan shadow]

didn't tgifridays go bankrupt altogether

[worn remnant]

probably, but bankruptcy is just another speed bump for the corporation shuffle to drive over

[cinder karma]

I'm not sure my parents would have taken me to a tgifriday

(And I'm too cheap to take myself)

[devout vault]

Why must everything fun be beat into conforming into boring corporate looks 😔

[frosty echo]

Capitalism.

[pliant snow]

Does helix support spellchecking?

Vim/Neovim has had it for ages but I don't see anything for helix

[safe dragon]

other than setting up some spellcheck LSP I don't think so

that's something I've turned off in every application that has it so I have no experience with it

[cinder karma]

Microsoft is turning Rust into a first-class language for developing secure Windows drivers | TechSpot https://share.google/NSk9Fm6d8EDMIhgWJ

I legitimately would like to spend more time with Rust

[steel kraken]

Makes sense, as drivers running in kernel space make a mess if they have memory bugs

and tbh is only in security sensitive places like this where I want rust

in most other contexts I would rather any of the other NotC++ options instead

[cinder karma]

Like zig or like c# or like Javascript

[runic eagle]

Am I missing any "rules" for generating Pac-Man style mazes?

• Central room with clear surrounding corridor.
• No dead ends.
• Single tile wide corridors.
• Pellets on every corridor tile.
• Power pellet near each maze corner.

[frosty echo]

What are you counting as a dead end?

[runic eagle]

Any corridor that does not open into another or turn into a bend

[hushed raven]

Looping between screen edges

[frosty echo]

I think with that definition, you could have a long section that connects to itself but not to the rest of the maze, which probably wouldn't be wanted?

[dusty pollen]

all the pacman mazes I've ever seen were symmetrical, so you may want to include that? and maybe restrict the size of the islands inside loops

I'd say connectedness is probably the hardest to define a simple check for tbh

well, depends on how you run your checks ig

or since this seems like it's for procgen, how you generate things in the first place

[pliant snow]

Yeah, real Pac-Man stages are symmetrical. You also need to specify no large open spaces, like no 2x2 blanks at all.

[dusty pollen]

tbh if I was tasked with procedurally generating pacman stages, I'd just attach a bunch of rectangle loops to each other starting with the big one around the ghosts' area, mirror, and add the bits that let you loop

[runic eagle]

Thank you all! That was extremely helpful!

First randomly generated maze. My dead end rules dont seem to account for 1 tile deep corridors but I might keep it that way for some challenge.

Also fun fact I learned - there is only one maze in the original Pacman

[supple ether]

hey why is there both EventDeclarationSyntax and EventFieldDeclarationSyntax

what is the difference

ah-ha, thank you random programming blog

the first is for event properties (which I did not know were a thing) and the second is for regular-style events

apparently you can do this

public event EventHandler MyEvent {
  add => { ... }
  remove => {...}
}```

[dusty pollen]

I was thinking that but figured it must not be right

[rain apex]

how do u use this

is it like get set but for event handlers

[steel kraken]

looks like it https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/standard/events/how-to-handle-multiple-events-using-event-properties

I feel like the example doesn't do a great job showing a usecase for it but ah well

[devout vault]

I believe that's used in SMAPI for being able to handle event priorities (if I remember right)

Yep: https://github.com/Pathoschild/SMAPI/pull/723

[marble jewel]

So you're the one to blame for that /s

[devout vault]

Are event priorities a bad thing

either way Pathos approved it

He did say he wish he could think of a better way of doing it (if I remember right)

Like, you can't use those attributes with lambdas for example

[marble jewel]

No, I was only joking. They work well enough. The only thing I think could be improved is the ability to influence the relative sorting so you don't have to be concerned so much about having Normal and Normal+1, etc.

[steel kraken]

either mechanism invites an arms race, and I feel the Normal, Normal+1 is less breaking then the potential paradox of two events wanting to happen before each other

[steel kraken]

to be fair, Pathos was using it prior https://github.com/Pathoschild/SMAPI/pull/723/files#diff-87d3e781624df09967188f51b08bcb56a18cf515febce23f8c9185b5883dd5d2L16 it was already event properties

[devout vault]

I was more saying that's why I remembered it, since I did that PR. 😅

[raw ingot]

did anyone of you got the vs debugging feature to work when the steam is set up to start sdv via stardrop?
(at least this is what I think why when clicking the green debug arrow it loads and freezes stardew)

[safe dragon]

that sounds suspiciously like a modding question

[crystal wren]

So VS2026 looks... different.

[safe dragon]

oh no

I didn't even think about the fact that there would be a new visual studio in 2026

Blazing fast performance

[crystal wren]

Visually, I kinda like it?

[safe dragon]

damn I always wanted my AI to be deeper

[crystal wren]

LLM 2 - DLM?

[safe dragon]

I can't use 2026 till someone gets a vim plugin working for it

why does every fucking sentence about this editor include the word AI

[crystal wren]

Because AI.

[safe dragon]

I'm not even allowed to use these things cause sending my code to a cloud service would be against our security regulations

[devout vault]

There's a VS2026?

[safe dragon]

first insider version thing dropped yeah

[devout vault]

I didn't really know their version name change schedule, since 2022 was still updating

[safe dragon]

I started on VS 2012

2022 was exciting cause it finally became 64 bit

that definitely helped on the larger projects at work

[devout vault]

That was during my Code::Blocks era

I didn't use VS until stardew modding

[crystal wren]

I remember using Visual C++ 6...

And VB, but that doesn't count.

[safe dragon]

I actually wrote visual basic .NET yesterday

technically

I uncommented 1 line and commented another

[devout vault]

My mods all have a VB.Net version if you decompile them that way with ILspy

[safe dragon]

😌

I'm very thankful I no longer regularly develop using VB.NET

[cinder karma]

Dh, worth it to update?

[safe dragon]

can't imagine it'll be worth it till the stable release at the bare minimum

[crystal wren]

I mean it's still preview, and I just poked around with it for 5 seconds on my laptop, but it really did feel... surprisingly smooth?

[cinder karma]

I dont do anything with c# anymore and this is sad

I can wait

[safe dragon]

I only use visual studio for work so I will just truck along with 2022 till my work decides to change license

in my ideal world I wouldn't need visual studio at all but I have to admit that it is genuinely really good

especially when its competition is omnisharp

[cinder karma]

I could try rider

[raw ingot]

oops, I thought the technical side of things would go rather here as well

[cinder karma]

If i ever find a use case for c# again

I would love to use c# more

[safe dragon]

someday

the features listed for visual studio 2026 seem to kind of imply that 2022 will not support .NET 10 and C# 14

else why would .NET 10 support be listed as a feature of 2026

can't imagine that's actually true though

wake me up when actually exciting .NET news is announced (stephen toub blogpost)

wait what

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/performance-improvements-in-net-10/

literally today

[cinder karma]

Sexy

Can't wait to read that

(Serious)

[safe dragon]

yup this continues to re-enforce my belief that none of the code I write is actually run and all of it replaced by something fancier

[cinder karma]

Oh my god frozen reference

I love it already

[safe dragon]

damn they optimized number division

not exactly something I expected to have any room for improvement

number divison of the decimal type*

[rain apex]

Crumble u mostly do odbc things right

How much do u benefit from net perf improve vs whatever db improving perf

[safe dragon]

I've never used odbc in my life

but i assume you mean I do a lot of work with databases

[rain apex]

Some kinda App to DB thing is what i remember yes

[safe dragon]

admittedly most of the C# code I write these days is constrained heavily by database performance but even then a lot of work that's done to improve async, general memory usage or just string handling in general can make a real impact

I get a lot more out just some improvements to System.Text.Json than most of this blogpost but still

though this blogpost has a section for JSON it seems

[supple ether]

ReadOnlySpan<char> my beloved

[safe dragon]

I used it all over my filter query parsing in the api even though it's honestly overengineered and didn't need it

[supple ether]

Apparently in I think 9? They added a thing to dictionary types that lets you define span-based alternate lookups

[safe dragon]

yeah I've got a few span alternate lookups here and there

FrozenDictionary with alternate lookup for spans is 🙏

[supple ether]

YESSS

Incredible gains

[safe dragon]

looks like FrozenDictionary is getting more love in .NET 10 as well

AlternateLookup specifically too

he himself calls this a monstrous misleading micro-benchmark but I find it amusing much like him

ah we can do better

alright I'll read through this again later but it seems nice though not as crazy as .NET 9

the biggest thing generally is just the automatic stack allocation of objects when it's determined to be possible

[cinder karma]

Yes!!!!!!

For delegates this is awesome!!!!

[rain apex]

Does net have functools.partial yet

[safe dragon]

go use haskell if you want that smh

honestly highly doubt that'll ever be a thing in C#

[devout vault]

What is this

[rain apex]

You know how u might do stuff like

Action callme = () => MyFunc(somevalue):

In python u can instead do

callme = functools.partial(myfunc, somevalue)

I think it's approximately like if u made a record with the method + what the args should be

And it doesn't inherit scope at all cus it's not a closure

[devout vault]

Sounds like the placeholders for C++ std::function

[rain apex]

Yeah similar enough

[steel kraken]

This did happen back with vs2022 with .net5 or .net6 dropping a line in the sand that vs2019 or whatever it's called didn't support

[marble jewel]

Have you ever thought about getting into modding /s

[cinder karma]

I'm too dumb 😛

[steel kraken]

We are trapped in .net6 until ca is convinced we can leave supported OS's behind or convince pathos that smapi can and should leave vanilla behind and run on newer versions

[marble jewel]

Let's start to petition .NET8 for SDV 2.0

[steel kraken]

Remind me in 50 hours to run smapi on .net 9

[heavy dagger]

whew ok i'm pretty booked up at that time but...I'll squeeze it in for you. (#6858893) (50h | <t:1757726403>)

[marble jewel]

Could .NET >6 be technically possible for SDV using the same cursed methods as the unofficial 64-bit?

[supple ether]

How

[safe dragon]

it was some regex analysis shenanigans

[supple ether]

This is the thing I was thinking about. Hopefully linq will get a huge boost from this

[steel kraken]

When I did my attempts I had to move smapi entirely out the stock folder and entirely inside the smapi-internal folder and then tweak a bunch of things to convince everything the base path is still where it was originally and not smapi-internal

[supple ether]

I thought stardew was already 64b

[steel kraken]

It wasn't back in 1.5.4

[marble jewel]

Before it was officially 64-bit, there was a time where through some hackery there was an unofficial build

[supple ether]

Aaaah okay

[marble jewel]

It was created to address the frequent OOM issues at the time

[supple ether]

Yeah bc 4gb is just not enough

[marble jewel]

But that whole era was a mini mod-pocalypse

[steel kraken]

In 1.5.4 it was what's now the compatibility branch, where windows was true xna and only not-windows was monogame

The hackery was replacing DLLs to force that monogame version to run on windows anyway

[rain apex]

wait so was non windows sdv 64bit since the begining

[cinder karma]

Tru

What i really want is a good reason to play with net 10

Preferably AOT

Preferably not blazer

Tbh my next programming project is probably The One App

[steel kraken]

Advent of code with aot is competitive for performance races

[cinder karma]

Tell me what to eat, when to sleep, congratulate me on being productive, give

[rain apex]

is it gonna have a mascot

[marble jewel]

All without LLM?

[rain apex]

focus korean meloon

[cinder karma]

Please

I want an external tool to fix my life

Tell me my dumb ass left my lunch on the kitchen counter again

Help me menu plannnnn

(I went looking for an app for meal prepping and I'm startled to see none that I like.... 🙁 )

[marble jewel]

I've always been a little bit interested in the idea of meal prepping, but the concept doesn't fit well in my life

Partially because of time and dishes, but mostly because I don't have a very large freezer

[cinder karma]

I dont have a large freezer tbh

Also my heart wants a proper sourdough loaf with which I can make a really good grilled cheese

I'm in my domestic era

Uncool and proud of it

[marble jewel]

There's a TikToker Stealth Health who has a bunch of meal prep recipes I'd love to try myself if I had to space for them. He like stuffs his freezer with dozens of prepped meals.

[cinder karma]

Ah, I tend to work aboit a week in advance

One of my friends in uni had an entire chest full of food

She would prep a semester at a time

God.

Sourdough

I'll go be off topic sourdough elsewhere

[marble jewel]

(From one of his videos)

[cinder karma]

A perfect life

[marble jewel]

And it's not the same thing either, but just a handful of different meals. I look at that and think, if only...

[cinder karma]

When I move again I'm thinking of getting a desktop and a chest freezer

Yes these go together

[marble jewel]

I do have a small chest freezer, but it's stuffed with costco

[cinder karma]

Ofc

Costco

I'm trying to make myself more inflation proof

[marble jewel]

The one time the chest freezer felt like a mistake was when I had an extended (week+ long power outage) and lost a bunch

Which is why some kind of backup generator is on my todo list

[cinder karma]

When I have more money I'm strongly considering solar panels

It's part of the inflation proofing

[marble jewel]

Otherwise, buying bulk has been one of my cost saving strategies for the last 7 years or so

[cinder karma]

The less I consume the more inflation proof I am

[marble jewel]

I wish solar was an option for me, but I live in an area that isn't ideal for it. More specifically, my house is under the shade of a lot of big trees.

[cinder karma]

I want a small self sufficient homestead

[marble jewel]

So the best I can do for power outages is a gasoline, propane, or a lithium backup

I looked at a house that was on well-water, had a septic system, and was a candidate for solar. That one would've been a great self sufficient home.

[devout vault]

I don't understand

(It's a readonly Mesh[])

I can iterate with a for loop and .Count but it's odd

[steel kraken]

ArrayEnumerator extends IEnumerator and ICloneable but not IEnumerator<T> it seems

[marsh spoke]

Which modpack should I start playing in stardewvalley?

[cyan shadow]

You're in the wrong place, you want #modded-stardew

Also, Stardew doesn't really do modpacks

[pliant snow]

It's time to start. Ill put together the first popular modpack

[cyan shadow]

Aquo no

We just do modlists and that works perfectly fine

I mean, nexus collections exist, but since vortex doesn't work right for Stardew it's not recommended to install them as intended

[pliant snow]

Oh that's right, the community has a weird thing against modpacks for some reason

[cyan shadow]

It's mostly permissions related and also the fact that barely anyone has their stuff on curseforge

The second bit is also permissions related, curse is bad at enforcing them

[pliant snow]

why would they need to be on curseforge

[dusty pollen]

honestly I just don’t get the point lmao

they make more sense in games where there’s a lot of compat issues so curation is key

in stardew it’s pretty safe to just download a bunch of mods (within reason)

[cyan shadow]

Infrastructure conducive to it

I guess

But yeah it's mostly just what iro said

[pliant snow]

I don't think that's necessarily true, a modpack is just a glorified install script, fetching the mods from whatever hosting source and installing them

the compatibility thing is a fair point tho

[cyan shadow]

(Is that not just a modlist at that point)

[dusty pollen]

oh, that would be because nexus (the main source for stardew modding) doesn’t support that without premium membership

[pliant snow]

I'm not sure there's a difference

[dusty pollen]

even for vortex collections

you cannot automate nexus downloads unless you have a premium api key

[pliant snow]

oh right, dont you have to be logged in to download from nexus

[dusty pollen]

yup

[cyan shadow]

You do, yes

[pliant snow]

now theres the thing they should be up in arms about

[lethal walrus]

*you can't automate them without nexus being angry

[dusty pollen]

you’ll find the stardew community is actually okay with “higher vetting in exchange for higher moderation”

(if the moderation works, which it doesn’t)

[pliant snow]

they're okay with tyranny

[lethal walrus]

you could definitely just steal the session + cloudflare cookie and then generate download urls with that

[cyan shadow]

Plus the way DP allocation works kinda just requires the user to have an account

[cyan shadow]

Also the archived links still working for hidden mods etc

[dusty pollen]

(I used to be able do it without even doing that iirc, but they may have patched that lmao)

[lethal walrus]

lol

[lethal walrus]

thats just a result of collections wanting versions not nexus needing premium for downloads

[pliant snow]

what license do games on nexus get uploaded under

[lethal walrus]

games or mods

[dusty pollen]

games don’t get uploaded to nexus

[cyan shadow]

You mean mods, I assume
Depends. Varies from MIT to "© All Rights Reserved"

[dusty pollen]

and iirc nexus takes no ownership, so whichever license you say they do

[lethal walrus]

Rights you are giving us to use material you upload

When you upload or post content to our site, you grant us the following rights to use that content:

a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable licence to use, reproduce, distribute, prepare derivative works of, display, and perform that user-generated content in connection with the service provided by the website and across different media including to promote the site or the service forever;
a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable licence for our partners and advertisers to use the content for their purposes and in accordance with the functionality of the site forever;
a worldwide, non-exclusive, royalty-free, transferable licence for other users to use the content for their own recreational purposes only and in accordance with the purpose of the site (that is, to enable users to download video game mods for their personal use and enjoyment) forever.

[cyan shadow]

Although some C# modders have been moving to MPL or GPL v3

[pliant snow]

Right, mods

[cyan shadow]

That's just boilerplate. Doesn't do anything beyond letting them provide the mod on the site for download

[lethal walrus]

mhm

[dusty pollen]

and for advertising, it looks like?

which is still standard tbh

[cyan shadow]

Ye, it's all under "provision and promotion of the service"

Very standard

[lethal walrus]

another fun point of this is the entire collection format is very much just vortex

the data is a stringified version of vortex state

[dusty pollen]

amazing

[cyan shadow]

Which is why a certain modding contest's initial terms of participation got so much flack...

[dusty pollen]

“why don’t you guys trust our new mod manager”

[cyan shadow]

[dusty pollen]

(spill)

[cyan shadow]

(weren't you there for this when it happened???)

[dusty pollen]

(no recollection)

[pliant snow]

Perfect, time to find all the MIT, GPL, MPL, etc mods and redistribute them in my ultimate modpack

[lethal walrus]

is this curseforge related by any chance

[lethal walrus]

its kind of readable thankfully?

[worn remnant]

the chance is 100%

[cyan shadow]

Hi ichor

[worn remnant]

tl;dr curseforge did a modding contest and the terms for submission was that you would grant curseforge a worldwide, perpetual, exclusive right to host, distribute, etc. your mod

not fully asserting ownership but more or less, i (a layman) would say

not too unlike 20th century fox's perpetual exclusive license for OG star wars

or the sony/spider-man one

or probably some other shitty situations i can't recall offhand

[worn remnant]

hi! i forgot to say hi back to you

[cyan shadow]

[lethal walrus]

oh no i'm finally getting errors dealing with collections

gnhgkdjfhgjrhgjkhrdjkghdrgh

[dusty pollen]

which now has to be gpl, in a stunning win for open source

[lethal walrus]

what if aquo violates the gpl

[dusty pollen]

then he might as well throw the arr mods in

[pliant snow]

If I'm just rehosting them, and writing an install script that simply downloads them and installs them, I don't think it would need to be GPL

but licenses confuse me

[lethal walrus]

[11/09/2025 14:07:11][Alert][Program.Main: Line 153] System.InvalidOperationException: The converter specified on 'Stardrop.Models.Nexus.CollectionModRule' is not compatible with the type 'Stardrop.Models.Nexus.CollectionModRule'.
???

oh this is horrifically on topic

[11/09/2025 14:13:58][Debug][NexusClient.GetFileByVersion: Line 260] Requesting version 2.4.2 of mod 1063
[11/09/2025 14:13:59][Debug][NexusClient.GetFileByVersion: Line 280] foreach file inside with Automate 2.4.2-1063-2-4-2-1753653272.zip @ 2.4.2
[11/09/2025 14:13:59][Debug][NexusClient.GetFileByVersion: Line 293] Unable to get a matching file for the mod 1063 with version 2.4.2 via Nexus Mods: 

you have the mod right there!!

oh stardrop doesn't like downloading old mods

yay!

[crystal wren]

Have fun!

[safe dragon]

that'll work just fine

[devout vault]

I thought the same thing, but then I saw modrinth gives their equivalent for downloads and page views, and they don't require logging in...

[devout vault]

god I hate GPL

[fleet wren]

yeah AGPL is better /s

[cinder karma]

Late but like mods are derivative works at best?

[devout vault]

I prefer my licenses to not take after contagious diseases, thanks

[pliant snow]

Not a fan of the ole copyleft?

[devout vault]

I'm not left handed, so no /s

(But yeah, no)

[fleet wren]

I propose the following license text for my new software: “by modifying and redistributing this software you agree to rename your online handles to ‘Selph’ in perpetuity”

[devout vault]

What happens if they do that with someone else who has the same license (but different name)

Like if I have to be a Selph, and then later have to become an aquo

Then I'm not Selph in perpetuity

[fleet wren]

make a portmanteau using your best judgement

aquelph

[devout vault]

aquelpha it is

[dusty pollen]

online handles is too vague. can i just set up a selph email address?

[devout vault]

...you know, the license doesn't say anything about alts

Well I guess it says handles, plural

I was gonna say "I could create a single selph handle and never use it", but I guess that won't work

[cinder karma]

I'm changing my licenses. In order to use my code you have to film yourself singing your idol to the bathroom mirror

[dusty pollen]

two is plural

[devout vault]

Hmm..... true

[safe dragon]

what if two is actually singular

[devout vault]

This is online usernames not pants

[safe dragon]

can't believe two is singular in the world of pants

[pliant snow]

I wish the creative commons licenses weren't frowned upon for code, I find them so much easier to understand lol

[robust quarry]

bored rn, what projects are you all working on?

[pliant snow]

I'm writing a blog post because I'm a nerd

[safe dragon]

only project I'm really working on these days is for work

[robust quarry]

i think everyone here is-

[pliant snow]

Please, these nerds have no idea the depths of true nerddom

[robust quarry]

DANM

[robust quarry]

i take that as competition-

[dusty pollen]

what about?

[pliant snow]

Soft modding a PS2

[robust quarry]

oh thats nerdy-

(wanna clarify that that's a compliment)

[sand frost]

I need to replace my car’s blower motor

That’s like a hobby, right?

I’ve been procrastinating but it sounds like it’s about to give up the ghost any minute

[robust quarry]

.. i read 'car' as 'cat'-

[pliant snow]

you def don't want to have a cat with a bad blower motor

[robust quarry]

467890

whoops

was wiping my keyboard lol

[devout vault]

I love VS crashing when I use my clipboard while having unsaved changes

It's so exciting

[robust quarry]

oh god-

[devout vault]

(Every window on my computer froze, too 😅 )

My main project is of course my secret code crimes

Of course there are others too

[robust quarry]

just checked to see that my VS stuffs were saved when you said that-

[robust quarry]

ofc ofc

[devout vault]

(it's not secret at this point, beyond being in a thread)

Thankfully I didn't lose much it seems

[robust quarry]

that's goof

good

[sand frost]

Maybe VS sensed your crimes

And tried to protest

[robust quarry]

LMAOO

i hope vs doesn't judge decide to crash my computer after sensing how shitty i am at coding-

[cinder karma]

Work

[cinder karma]

If you replace your car blower motor I'll replace the battery in my car

[devout vault]

Impossible, I'm pretty sure I've done worse things before.

[cinder karma]

.q add "Crimes are fun!" - @cinder karma

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6627 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1416182065979723807)

[cinder karma]

Thank you

Casey, how goes crimes?

[sand frost]

Um that ones pretty important atra

No battery = no go

[cinder karma]

Oh it's not broken yet. Just a little higher resistance than nice

[sand frost]

I seeee

I have to check what model blower motor before I buy a new one

[cinder karma]

I just have to get myself, my car, and my socket wrench to Costco

[sand frost]

There’s still time today!

[safe dragon]

nah it's past midnight in timezone so it's impossible

[devout vault]

records video with obs
opens video editor, drops it in, exports it to mp4 (originally was mkv)
resulting file is 50% larger than the original
Me:

...I forgot I left that on "reply"

Anyways, crime preview once I figure out how to get thise 200 MB .mkv a bit smaller

...I think I was floundering around realizing the windows game had to be the active window for keyboard input for a bit, can probably cut that out

(And lower than 720p)

88 MB. All it took was this

(Was 720p 30 FPS 1280x720 at High quality)

[heavy dagger]

@steel kraken: run smapi on .net 9 (50h ago)

[steel kraken]

Ah that was what the reminder was

[prisma flume]

one day you'll see the light of webm vpx compression and be free

[devout vault]

I don't know how to make it do that

[prisma flume]

you could just render as your usual output codec and then ffmpeg it to webm, if your recording software doesn't support vpx out of the box

[devout vault]

OBS

Also this scary warning (it was set to .mkv before, and didn't show this)

[prisma flume]

well those are just your options for mp4 right

[devout vault]

Oh right you said webm

[prisma flume]

isn't there an alternative recording format for webm

[devout vault]

Alas, no webm

[prisma flume]

huh

wonder why that is

[devout vault]

shrugs

Maybe there's a plugin

I'm on latest it seems

but I should sleep

[prisma flume]

20 Apr 2024 — No, you can't record using the WEBM container but you can use MKV or MOV and then remux it into webm using ffmpeg.

[devout vault]

Smh

[pliant snow]

Good thing it can record flash video tho

[safe dragon]

thankfully

[lethal walrus]

does it generate a <canvas> with the typescript

[crystal wren]

(Also, OBS has a built-in remuxer...)

[supple ether]

event syntax in source generators is stupid, why does it work differently from literally everything else

on the other hand I found the syntax tree visualizer, which is very useful

[devout vault]

This was not a game I was expecting to see on steam. https://store.steampowered.com/app/3219410/The_Trolley_Solution/

Steam

The Trolley Solution

Philosophers already waste their time and lives thinking about thinking.

Why not have fun while doing it?…

Price

$6.49

Recommendations

108

▶ Play video

[heavy dagger]

Title result: Save 35% on The Trolley Solution on Steam

[devout vault]

I haven't tried to do stuff for events with them before, how stupid are they?

[devout vault]

The w h a t

[supple ether]

So when you use ForAttributeWithMetadataName, it gives you the syntax node that the attribute is applied to. For every other usecase, this is the "top level" node of whatever the thing is.

For events specifically, for some reason, it is NOT the event declaration, but rather the variable name child node, so to get the actual event node, you need to climb the tree two levels

[supple ether]

If you have the compiler platform sdk component installed in VS, you can search tools for the syntax tree visualizer, which is a tool window that shows you the syntax tree of the currently displayed code, as well as the specific syntax node that your text cursor is in

I wish I knew about it before because it's amazingly useful for writing source generators and analyzers

[devout vault]

That's weird.

Recently I had to do some sourcegen stuff that could only use a version older than ForAttributeWithMetadataName though, RIP me

[devout vault]

Oh my god

This would've saved me so much pain and misery and suffering and agony

I was postponing doing more sourcegen stuff for modding, now I might not if not for my hyperfixation on other crimes

[supple ether]

I don't know why nobody mentions it, I only found it through some random obscure back page of msdn

[devout vault]

I have done so much debug output

Or trial and error

Trying to figure out the exact class I should be casting to for what I want

Or what field contains what I'm looking for

[supple ether]

Yeah that's how I was doing it before and it was painful

[devout vault]

It's extra fun when your source generator is crashing because things aren't matching your expectations

Where's that clickbait C# guy that gets posted here periodically. They need a video like "source generators are actually good now???"

And like, so often something looks like what you want but isn't. Or like, good luck figuring out what a Trivia is in a reasonable amount of time.

[supple ether]

I need to start a programming blog because I've learned so many useful things about source generation that I haven't seen anywhere

[devout vault]

Yeah, and a lot of the things that do exist don't cover the latest stuff

Like not covering incremental ones, or newer stuff like ForAttributeWithMetadataName

[supple ether]

Yeah the documentation is so minimal

[devout vault]

For what I did already, this is my mod class for stardew3d (not including the two event methods you see there)

BaseMod is this, and the source generators generate appropriate fields/methods

Ex.

I've been wanting to do more interesting stuff though, like auto subscribe event methods marked with an attribute (similar to in MC forge), or an autogenerated thing for loading in new assets and having them auto cached/invalidated as necessary, or GMCM integration

[devout vault]

(If you're wondering about the reflection here - I could've sworn I tried Instance = this as ActualType; and it crashed or wouldn't compile or something, but that's actually working now...)

[supple ether]

All three of those things are actually part of the sourcegen package I've been working on! It's why I was fiddling with event stuff.

There's still a few things to do before I can release it, but it's almost done

[devout vault]

Oh, what all does your thing have? Maybe I could just use yours 😛

I also have some ideas for a not-quite-sourcegen

I’m thinking I can auto generate documentation for GitHub and new website based on c# xml docs

So then I just have to document things in the source code itself

I imagine that’ll be much faster than what I was doing for my website previously

I also wanted to have a github action generate mod description from readme or something on release, and then update nexus automatically.

But

I even had a plan for making it work automatically for monorepos

[lethal walrus]

there is always the option of paying some company that does scraping stuff to solve the captchas

might make nexus angry

[devout vault]

Yeah, I’ve heard of those being a thing

[supple ether]

• Asset lifecycle handling including lazy properties and INotifyProprtyChanged, and asset dictionary merging. Also dumps translations into a strings asset for convenience.
• gmcm automatic registration and lifecycle handling, with support for all all types including enums, and pages. Plus hooks for adding your own stuff.
• automatic event subscription, with support for all smapi events as well as marked static events from the mod itself.

[supple ether]

I would love to have that tbh

[devout vault]

Also dumps translations into a strings asset for convenience
Doesn't Pathos's thing do that too if you specify a certain property in your csproj

[supple ether]

I don't know, I never use it

[devout vault]

Could've sworn I've done it before

Ah

[supple ether]

I can make it detect that property and disable it though

[devout vault]

I really like it, but sometimes you need dynamic fetching for a key

Cat plz

I can't read the nerd talk like this

[supple ether]

I almost always find myself using dynamic keys and/or string assets nowadays

[devout vault]

Anyways this sounds like something I'd really be interesting, do you need a tester? 👀

(Although depending on the syntax I suppose I might end up making my own anyways - not as a hater, just because I am a little gremlin with peculiar preferences 😛 )

[devout vault]

Fair. Sometimes just doing I18n.Menu_Confirm is nice, though

Especially since it'll break at compile time if something changes

Also I'm not really familiar with INotifyPropertyChanged, what's that like?

[supple ether]

I've been testing as I go, but the repo is public I think. I haven't packaged it with nuget yet, that's the next thing I plan to do

[devout vault]

And by "Asset lifecycle handling" do you mean for vanilla assets, putting custom assets into the pipeline, or both?

[supple ether]

It's mostly used in ui spaces. StardewUI uses it. Basically it just says "here's an event that fires when any public property on this object changes, and the event will tell you which one

[devout vault]

How convenient that you have your github profile linked to your discord profile 😄

[supple ether]

Both

The whole works- loading, editing, invalidation, local files

[devout vault]

What's the repo name

Oh

I skipped the first repo somehow

[supple ether]

StarModGen

[devout vault]

Like I literally started reading at repo number 2

[supple ether]

I'm debating switching out some of the asset attributes for file properties, since piling on a bunch of attributes on a method is kind of clunky

[devout vault]

File properties?

Hmm, parts of this I like, parts of it I don't (just code style stuff though)

[supple ether]

Yeah, in the csproj. You can define attributes for files that a generator can use

[devout vault]

And since source generators can't use output from another as input, I probably couldn't have my source generator do things your source generator would pick up on

Unless I do the "don't auto add to project, just save to a folder that happens to include project files" approach

[devout vault]

Oh, like this?

I've contemplated uses for that before

[supple ether]

I mean this thing is mit licensed so you can steal piece of it if you want

[devout vault]

Eh I know enough about source generators to not need to steal code

Was only looking at it for less work for me to do + ideas

[supple ether]

No, it's different. Hold on

[devout vault]

(Like, I only looked at the demo just now)

[supple ether]

https://github.com/dotnet/roslyn/blob/main/docs/features/incremental-generators.cookbook.md#consume-msbuild-properties-and-metadata

[devout vault]

Interesting

[dusty pollen]

what do they want to contribute to the discussion

[devout vault]

His contribution is reducing the throughput of my insanity to the discord community

[dusty pollen]

also I feel like I finally have to ask. what even are source generators

[devout vault]

They analyze the parsed C# syntax (in the same way the modbuildconfig does for it's warnings, I believe), and create new files based on that

When you edit a file it already generated stuff from, the generation for it is replaced

[devout vault]

So like, these?

[devout vault]

Autogenerated from this

DGA did something similar for compile time mixins. Though Pathos converted it to the pre-sourcegen codegen thing, to make it work on .net framework. (I originally was making DGA for the .net upgrade, but it got backported to the .net framework builds since that was taking longer to release than expected)

[dusty pollen]

so like, self-updating boilerplate?

[devout vault]

Though nowadays I know how to make non-incremental source generators work with .net framework too

[devout vault]

Pretty much yeah

[dusty pollen]

interesting

is the use case just saving time while developing?

[devout vault]

Like this is the generating code for my [HasConfig] attribute

I believe so

Makes things less error prone when you don't have to copy paste a lot too (less of an issue for this small case though)

The rest of that source generator is this (basically just the "Finding matches" part)

[dusty pollen]

ohhh and you're using a partial class-- oh I get it that's clever

[devout vault]

("Why aren't you using that finding attributes convenience method?" Because it doesn't work for any version of that generic, in my testing)

I have the old mixin test on gist somewhere

I wish github let you search your own gists

https://gist.github.com/spacechase0/94670a81d823d9cbf5d395648ec81f48

User facing side of that is

With the generated code being

[dusty pollen]

you know I was just thinking about something yesterday that may or may not be doable via baby's first source generator

[devout vault]

I did this for DGA since I was basically doing the same thing for every single object type 😛

(Which was everything JA supported, and I think a couple other things as well)

Speaking of DGA, I got a nexus DM from someone requesting an update for it once again, last night

[dusty pollen]

which was just some kind of template attribute for "cached/lazy loaded property" (prop with an underlying nullable field that gets ??=ed on get)

[dusty pollen]

but why though

[devout vault]

shrugs

[dusty pollen]

I write about ten million of those lazy loaded props per hour

[dusty pollen]

(no I don't I have like three and they're all terrible ideas)

[devout vault]

It never updated for 1.6 since literally the whole point was being able to use string ids

[dusty pollen]

does anything really depend on dga still

[devout vault]

There were a couple neat mods that never got updated for that reason I believe

Like, even outside only-content-packs

I believe PeacefulEnd's target dummies mod, for example

[supple ether]

yeah, take a look at what I'm doing with it here
https://github.com/tlitookilakin/StarModGen/tree/master

[dusty pollen]

I’m back to confusion I’ll have a more hands on look myself later

[devout vault]

I’ll put a note to ping you next to the rest of the notes on it once it’s ready for use, perhaps as a nuget package since others are interested. It should be usable even outside of modding in theory.

If anyone else wants a ping, ping me or dm me asking

I should probably make it a separate repo in that case (that case = usable outside of modding), huh

[devout vault]

...or maybe I could just use this thing I accidentally found while looking for documentation on the xmldoc output file structure

https://github.com/hailstorm75/ModularDoc

Gotta read it's capabilities to see if it can do what I want though

Since I want content pack facing docs as well

[cinder karma]

I was about to say - what lib does Harmony use?

[rain apex]

Docfx i think

I also used that b4 it's alright

[cinder karma]

Python world has some really nice ones ngl

I'm also a huge fan (in python land) of the fact that is versioned

So if I'm stuck on an old lib I can look up what it was on the padt

No I'm not salty about usinf 3.6

Why would you think that

So how goes thr land of video games

Video gaming?

[steel kraken]

whats video gaming, I spent my evening finding and having a fix for smapi deciding it was a good idea to load townInterior 100x back to back in the same tick

[dusty pollen]

I was wondering how long you spent on that

[steel kraken]

I got a different log with the same behaviour today and they explicitly said they were playing in english which got me to investigate further

I was previously convinced it had to be some mod doing invalidate over and over again, but once I knew they were in english, the question then became "why is a german townInterior being used at all"

and once I found the cause, I could finally reproduce it locally

[cinder karma]

Interesting

[devout vault]

I’m gonna have these generate on build so they’re always matching the source code in the commit you are looking at (or the downloaded release you have).

For my website, I’m thinking of generating it once upon release, and having a version switcher like how a lot of things have

[cinder karma]

@dusty pollen guess what I just found in code I wrote

for i in f or file_ext == "blah":
      # loop behavior 

Python man

[dusty pollen]

have you never heard of with open(filename) as f:

but also I'm not sure which of the iterators in the file that uses or what for ... or is

[cinder karma]

I have! I simplified for texting on discord

I dont know what for....or is either

Stupid fun. The code worked

I be not sure HOW

Which is why I didnt catch it earlier

[pliant snow]

Ew what

[cinder karma]

Look

I was pretty crunched when I wrote that

Lots of python fun

truthy or whatever returns the first item

Returns the truthy

[warped adder]

aw, i was going to ask

[cinder karma]

So basically, the or just returned f

Which is why it worked lol

[dusty pollen]

short circuiting, yeah

I associate it more with js tbh

but I just didn't realise that was legal syntax, I thought there was a stricter check for the for loop syntax

[cinder karma]

Neither did i

Neither did i

[dusty pollen]

I also associate the word "truthy" with js lmao

what does it iterate over if you just iterate over f itself?

[cinder karma]

It's also a thing in python

Oh, iterating over a file? The contents of the file line by line

[dusty pollen]

oh yeah, I just associate it with js because of how prevalent it is there

it's going to be a thing in any duck typed language

[cinder karma]

Yup

[dusty pollen]

because you have to be able to resolve arbitrary stuff to bool

[cinder karma]

Yup

[dusty pollen]

oh, so just readlines?

[cinder karma]

Basically but as a generator iirc

[dusty pollen]

I'm pretty sure readlines are also a generator

I think everything in the file object is generators

[cinder karma]

No, it isnt

[dusty pollen]

it isn't?

[cinder karma]

Readlines produces a list of strings

In my case I wanted to not have the entire effing file in memory

[dusty pollen]

oh

has it always? I could have sworn at some point it was a generator

[devout vault]

It can be a thing in other languages too. Like how c++ std::unique_ptr and co use operator overloading to let you do if(ptrObj) just like a normal pointer

[cinder karma]

Pretty sure always

[dusty pollen]

oh maybe I was actually just iterating over f all along and was just mentally blanking

it's hard to think without an ide open

[dusty pollen]

isn't that just an implicit cast method?

[devout vault]

it's hard to think without an ide open
it's hard to think without an ide~~ open~~
it's hard to think without an ide open
it's hard to think without an ide open

[devout vault]

Yeah, but as far as patterns go it's very much a thing

You might be able to do it on streams too?

Been while since I tried though

[dusty pollen]

oh I just mean that it's not an inherent truthiness/falsiness that values have the way duck typed languages do

[devout vault]

It's inherent?

I thought it was more of a so-common-its-fundamental pattern

Like if I make a custom type in those languages wouldn't I still need to tell it somewhere how to know if that thing is truthy or falsey?

[dusty pollen]

I mean you could, but it would just assume that it's truthy

[devout vault]

Ahhhhh

[dusty pollen]

you have to be able to convert things to bool pretty much

it's not an option not to

generally only empty things are falsey

[devout vault]

So it'd be like if C++ made it where everything was implicitly castable and you couldn't opt out, but you could tell it how to decide which value to use?

I wonder if that's sorta a consequence of those languages only really having pass-by-reference. Like, literally everything is pointer in a sense, so it has that by default, and just lets you override it for the pointer's value

[dusty pollen]

the python relationship to string implicit casting is more complicated tbh but everything does get a string representation too

[dusty pollen]

I think it's more a consequence of these languages abstracting away the typing system

especially in js

[devout vault]

Dynamic typing my behated

[dusty pollen]

but types aren't really the same as you'd think of them in actual typed languages, they're a loose approximation

[devout vault]

No amount of bolting things like typescript on them can save them

(I've never used typescript, but it's tainted by JS and so is fundamentally bad)

(Not as bad. But still bad)

(/s, somewhat)

[dusty pollen]

you don't like the prototype system, Casey?

you don't like that Everything Is A Dict?

[devout vault]

n o p e

Not that I got far enough into JS to really use the prototype system that much

[cinder karma]

Not really tbh

[devout vault]

I'm sure it's great for some types of programming. But I am very much OOP brained at this point

[cinder karma]

In python you have to define the __bool__ function iirc

[devout vault]

(Yes you can do OOP in those, but it's not as good)

[cinder karma]

If you dont define the __len__

[dusty pollen]

any custom class you make will evaluate to truthy inherently iirc

[devout vault]

(Like - yes, you can do OOP in Lua, but it's bad. Heck, you can do it in C even, since OOP is more a paradigm than simply being able to do obj.func())

[dusty pollen]

as someone who's made plenty of cursed custom python classes

[cinder karma]

Huh never mind it defaults to truthy

Why does it default to truthy

[dusty pollen]

yup

python

that's why

[cinder karma]

🐍

[dusty pollen]

(like I said, only empty things should be falsey theoretically)

so like null, empty lists, I can't remember if the empty string is falsey?

[cinder karma]

I think if you define __len__ it uses that (yup)

[devout vault]

This is also why I'm not gonna use something like lua for my modding scripting language idea by the way

[cinder karma]

Empty string is falsey

[devout vault]

I suppose it's easier initially to some extent for people who haven't programmed before, but I feel like if you're actually aiming to learn to program and not just get something working, something else is better

[dusty pollen]

yeah makes sense

[devout vault]

Very much an opinion thing though

(And to be fair, many content pack others would only care about getting things done and not actually learning programming. But if I'm gonna make this, I wanna enjoy making it, and potentially even using it myself at some point)

[dusty pollen]

(makes sense to atra, I have no horse in the race re learning options)

[cinder karma]

I'm too old and jaded to care about content pack makers

You heard it here first

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by kittycatcasey as #6628 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1417241307901858015)

[dusty pollen]

(I'm willing to learn whatever arcane system piques my interest but learned programming using js and python initially)

[devout vault]

The fun thing about learning option opinions is you only ever learn from scratch once, so any opinion you do have can never be from first hand experience with all the options

[cinder karma]

Yes. Only learn scratch once and never again

[devout vault]

(Generally, me too, but if I don't like the arcane system option I'll try finding something I do like first - potentially even making my own system that I do like)

[cinder karma]

This fool over here learned VBA

Don't be like atra

Atra is very dumb

[dusty pollen]

learn scratch zero times please

[devout vault]

VBA has its niche I feel

More so for people who just want to do small things though

Like the excel stuff (though there's python for that too nowadays, right?)

[dusty pollen]

yeah, if you want to put a curse on your coworkers

then you should definitely use VBA in that case

[devout vault]

I mean professional stuff is a whole different ballgame

But if you're doing a small thing for yourself? Who cares

[dusty pollen]

why would you use VBA if not to inflict pain on coworkers

[devout vault]

Inflict pain on yourself?

[cinder karma]

I've only ever used VBA professionally

[dusty pollen]

what hell are you in that the only option you have for personal stuff is vba

[dusty pollen]

there are better ways!

[cinder karma]

9th circle

[devout vault]

I mean sometimes the pain comes from doing it in the worst way possible, you know?

Like, it might be more pain-optimal to program your spreadsheet utility via memory hooking in assembly. But then you're very much asking for it.

For true pain to yourself, you need some vague sense of hope that it won't be painful

[dusty pollen]

I still think of the "genius" intern two years before me who "wrote code so good nobody else could even understand it" who hardcoded SharePoint paths in a vba script he told nobody about

[cinder karma]

Also frankly I dont do personal code these days

All my code is professional

[dusty pollen]

I think he was a demon sent to torment me personally

[devout vault]

Only option, maybe not. But if excel is what you know, there aren't a lot of options - especially ones with plenty of examples and documentation.

(Sorta like how a big problem with godot is most of the docs/examples/etc. you find are for unity - though that's getting better)

[devout vault]

If your code is "so good nobody else can understand it", it's probably bad

(I know you know this)

[dusty pollen]

you know it, I know it, unfortunately they didn't

[devout vault]

Like, "Yes, the magnitude of its goodness is huge. But it's also negative!"

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by irocendar as #6629 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1417242933941502114)

[dusty pollen]

it wasn't anything important or anything, just the billing information for over 400 people

oh wait, that is important!

[devout vault]

Oh, so no big deal if that data gets deleted (or worse, gets corrupted in ways that look fine until you look into it)

[devout vault]

(Everybody loves a good scalar value vs. vector value joke, right?)

[cinder karma]

Python excel is better tbh

[devout vault]

Yeah but that's fairly recent comparatively, and so runs into this problem

Like if you google "how to do this specific thing in excel scripting" you're more likely to see VBA than python

[dusty pollen]

guess how we found it

it wasn't because he told anyone about it!

[devout vault]

And that's ignoring any confusion the average person might have about looking up general python stuff and trying to figure out python versioning (I assume 2 vs 3 is still a confusing point, though perhaps less than it used to be?)

[devout vault]

I mean, that's how you get job security.

And once you're already definitely gone or going to be, you don't need the job security anymore, so why bother? /s

[cinder karma]

Hmmmm

Well.

I assume the average data scientist can handle python

[safe dragon]

it's one of the few languages I would assume data scientists know

"know"

know well enough for their usecase

[devout vault]

Data scientists, yeah

I'm not talking about data scientists

I'm talking about that older lady in every other office who does the excel wizardry and wants to make it do slightly more

(Not to call this person older, but... literally my mom, basically)

(To be fair does want to learn programming, but has never had time)

[safe dragon]

my mom's retired and I'm 28 so that doesn't necessarily say that much

that older lady in my team is great and I think at this point she just knows SQL cause of microsoft access but is not ready to admit that to herself

[devout vault]

Yeah I just don't like to think about my parents aging because I like to pretend they'll live as long as I will

(And also my mom's joking probable reaction if she heard me call her an older lady)

[safe dragon]

😌

my mom has now accepted that she is considered a senior when buying tickets

[devout vault]

Yeah, there reaches a point where you'd ready to cross that boundary, but the psychological part is the last hurdle

[devout vault]

Also I had no idea we were the same age. I thought you were at least a few years older than me for some reason

[safe dragon]

🌈

[devout vault]

to be fair my personal age view is skewed and I feel like I should be 3-5 years younger than I really am

[safe dragon]

it's ok I always think atra is like 45 and then get confused

I feel like I get very conflicting information

[devout vault]

Most people: "everyone on the internet is a kid"
Me: "everyone knowledgeable on the internet must be older than me"
(everyone != everyone knowledgeable, but I'm not so far gone I think the average person is older in general)

[safe dragon]

I still remember this one time when I was still ike 22 and someone told me they thought I was a 35 year old mom...

I'm not even a woman!

I'm terrible at estimate age tbh

on discord I assume people are younger than me unless it's a programming discord

[devout vault]

See part of my problem might be I don't hang out much in spaces without technical people

[warped adder]

i just assume everyone is perfectly ageless tbh

[devout vault]

and I ignore nexus comments existing

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6630 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1417246897521037322)

New quote added by atravita as #6631 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1417247700822392832)

[safe dragon]

the game engine discord I'm in has people who are like mid 30s, 40s or even 50s who worked at like EA as an engine developer before and now want to contribute to bevy

[devout vault]

I'm pretty awful too. If someone isn't an adult or a newborn, I'll probably be at least 3-5 years off

[cinder karma]

You are knowledgeable on the internet

So you're older than you are

[devout vault]

everyone else*

But it tracks re: my perceived self-age vs my actual age

[cinder karma]

I'm, however, an ageless demon

[safe dragon]

though at the same time there's this one guy in that discord who I assumed was likely in his late 20s and then I checked his discord and it said high schooler and felt the most crushing wave of incompetence I've felt in my life

[devout vault]

Speaking of game engine discords - just got a ping that Godot 4.5 was released

[cinder karma]

Ah yes I also saw the kernel scheduling talk by a high schoolers

Damn I'm dumb

[safe dragon]

in this case it's a guy who has basically singlehandedly developed probably the most popular physics library for bevy

[devout vault]

...why are there so many breaking changes for a 4.x release?

https://docs.godotengine.org/en/4.5/tutorials/migrating/upgrading_to_godot_4.5.html

They seem to be relatively small things, but still

[safe dragon]

he'd be in off topic sharing papers he was reading on novel physics simulation techniques and writing simd optimizations to improve his library and then it turned out he was 17

[cinder karma]

....possible candidate for MIT i see

[safe dragon]

if he were american ye

pretty sure he has at this point gone to a uni in his own country

he's 19 now 🌈

at 17 I'd never programmed before

at 28 my eyes still blur over when I read a paper

[devout vault]

Yeah I can't read academic papers

I had started programming at like 11 or 12 though

[safe dragon]

I had no real interest in it till I had to pick something for uni

[devout vault]

As a child, I yearned for the (game dev) mines

[safe dragon]

I have a degree in game technologies 🌈

I am a full stack web dev

[warped adder]

noice

[safe dragon]

it's always a little funny to me cause I dropped out of the web development course

was like "I do not want to deal with javascript"

lo and behold

I deal with javascript now (typescript)

[warped adder]

i got a bachelor's degree on javascript, java, php and c#. and c++. nothing else. what is python <= me to this day

[safe dragon]

vast majority of what I did in uni was in C#

I still use C# a lot

alas, all the web frameworks for C# are shit

[devout vault]

Amazing

This is so painful when modding sometimes

(And why on the rare game project, music gets added last)

[warped adder]

C# is the only programming language i use these days... for reasons obvious from context of where we are talking (I do not think json counts as a programming language)

[safe dragon]

massive

json should not be a programming language

I know you modders sometimes think otherwise

I disagree

[warped adder]

I mean I do strongly appreciate what Content Patcher has done for us all

but also

[devout vault]

I don't think the modders that frequent this channel in particular will think that

[cinder karma]

Honest question

[warped adder]

😭

[cinder karma]

Why not mute the game

[rain apex]

Quick someone get the JDSL post out

[safe dragon]

not the JDSL

[cinder karma]

The old atra (who can't come to the phone right now) would mute the game and listen to music

[safe dragon]

I have no interest in the JIZML paradigm thank you

[devout vault]

Good question.

Never thought of it. 😛

To be fair I get... headphones fatigue, sometimes? So if I'm not actively watching a video or playing a game or something, I often just don't have them on. So this was more of an issue during my speakers era after my headphones broke (which I don't do anymore because I don't like alone)

I've already blacked out the JSDL post from my memory

I don't remember much about it beyond it being actual code crimes (or like code felonies, compared to my code crimes being more like code misdemeanors)

[cinder karma]

The really stupid thing i used tp do was mute stardew

Then put on working music

Which would (reasonably frequently) include the stardew soundtrack

[devout vault]

I mean, maybe you wanted winter music when testing summer stuff

Or didn't want sound effects

Seems reasonable to me

[cinder karma]

Needless to say, the stardew soundtrack has more of an impression on me than the game itself

[devout vault]

Knowing you, that doesn't surprise me

Wasn't modding SDV in general an excuse for you to learn C#

[cinder karma]

Yeah. And I suspect I've overstayed my welcome

[devout vault]

Never

...oh I just had a super cursed idea. Make a MonoGame backend for Godot, and then use Godot for Stardew modding

Not that I'm gonna bother even trying. But still an idea, and still cursed

[safe dragon]

this is why I don't trust modders

[devout vault]

😂

Sometimes the answer to "Why?" is literally just "to see if I can"

[safe dragon]

choosing the path of most resistance

[devout vault]

There are many ideas I've had before where once I've figured out how to do it conceptually (on a detailed level) I never get around to actually writing the code for it

The fun part of programming for me is largely the problem solving. It's certainly not the typing syntax part

[safe dragon]

I'd imagine that's most people who frequent this channel

[warped adder]

I grew up as a gamer turning off all games' music and listening to my own instead <3 (except specifically need for speed)

i firmly associate sims with "на тихорецкую состав отправится"

[cinder karma]

Rust for monogame?

[devout vault]

no

[safe dragon]

I only turn off music for games I've played faaar too much like runescape or path of exile

[cinder karma]

But if you do godot

[devout vault]

I am not a rustacean, and no amount of time in this channel will change that

[devout vault]

I mean someone could, but I'm saying I won't.

(I also said I won't actually be trying monogame godot 😛 )

[safe dragon]

I'm not a rustacean despite being in a rust game engine discord and having done advent of code in rust twice

[devout vault]

Also monogame godot would probably have to wait for the libgodot stuff to be usable to be honest

(That's the stuff to allow embedding godot elsewhere, and not have to be the host application)

[devout vault]

Hmm, I guess I should clarify then.

I'm an anti-rustacean

Not anti rustaceans

I am averse to using rust

[cinder karma]

I kid I kid

[safe dragon]

really though my favorite language is C#

80% because I am way better at it than any other language

[devout vault]

It's my favorite language too. But still missing some things

(God I want runtime mixins)

(How much would I use them? Don't ask questions)

[safe dragon]

I don't know what that is

[devout vault]

Also:

• Being able to use values and not just types as generic parameters (ie. the main thing I miss about C++ templates)
• Being able to break out of an outer loop,
• Other stuff that's really only useful when designing something to be modded to be honest

[safe dragon]

those first 2 are both in rust 🙏

you can technically break out of outer loops in C# if you count the goto keyword!

[devout vault]

To oversimplify things, mixins allow you to copy one classes contents (including things like implemented interfaces) into another.

You can do compile time now with partial classes and sourcegen, but I'd love to be able to attach an inventory to an arbitrary thing at runtime without having to go full ECS

[devout vault]

...hmmm

I'm not against using goto, and I think I've used it for that sort of thing before

But something like how java lets you label a loop and then you can break using that would be nice

[devout vault]

Yeah but rust is yucky

[safe dragon]

I've read many explanations of mixins now and I vaguely understand what it means

feels a bit like the derive macros in rust which I suppose is like the source gen compile time mixins in C#

runtime tho

rust does not have that

which has been annoying since it also lacks reflection

[devout vault]

I wonder if I'm ever gonna finish that C++ runtime reflection thing I was working on

Or if compilers will have official support for the standardized version by then

[cinder karma]

"Composition not inheritance" is as far as I got tbh

[devout vault]

Yeah, for the compile time side of things you can also do it with multiple inheritance

[cinder karma]

design-patterns-by-example-for-systemverilog-verification-environments-enabled-by-systemverilog-1800-2012.pdf https://share.google/2ap7ZExYNgJKWjT04

God no multiple inheritance sucks

[devout vault]

Okay actually this would be huge for the 3d/vr mod.

But I'm already past the hard part of that (matrices), and I doubt I need super advanced rendering

[cinder karma]

That's a bit of whining about multiple inheritance in python

I'm against multiple inheritance

[safe dragon]

but

u don't have any of my photos

I deleted them from ur dumb ass cloud thing years ago

[dusty pollen]

I want multiple inheritance in a true duck typing system that really adheres to "if it looks like a duck and it sounds like a duck, it's a duck"

like I want to define an interface for a class that has a mult: (T, T) => T method that has certain characteristics (commutative, associative, distributive, has a Zero and a One), and then any class that meets those requirements is inherently an instance of that interface

[safe dragon]

I only accept duck typing as a feature if it's compile time validated

else it should be hurled into the sun

[dusty pollen]

see this would be!

somehow

[safe dragon]

haskell can probably do this idk it's a terrifying language

[dusty pollen]

well I guess you'd define the characteristics of the method as some kind of compiler constant declaration

[rain apex]

Do u accept it if a duck compiles your code manually by drawing lines in the sand with beak

[dusty pollen]

do I get to pick the duck

[safe dragon]

only till the novelty wears off

[rain apex]

Only with premium subscription

[safe dragon]

this conversation reminded me again of a programming language I've been waiting to get a versioned release for like 4 years now

it doesn't have duck typing I don't think but it has some system where functions can accept any object that has specific fields

which is why I was reminded

typescript does that too tho

actually typescript would do that with methods too

"oh this object has some field that's a function called x with the correct type signature? alright cool"

honestly

typescript has a really cool type system

it's just held back by the fact that it's Javascript

[supple ether]

I like the traits system for rust but I wish you didn't need a separate impl block for non-trait methods

I like having data and functionality in one place

[devout vault]

Yeah, I probably would've looked into it at some point if not for that

[devout vault]

That's my main complaint with ECS stuff 😔

[safe dragon]

smh bunch of OOP people

[devout vault]

yes

[safe dragon]

I'm the same but I can accept it just simply being the same file

[devout vault]

Yeah

[safe dragon]

I've started putting multiple classes in the same file sometimes in C#

which I know is evil and should never be done according to people that do exist

only really do that when one of the classes inherits from the other and requires almost no implementation beyond that

[devout vault]

I am very guilty of this, as anyone who looks at my mods can attest

When Pathos took over my mods for a bit I believe one of the first things he did was split them into separate files

[rain apex]

I only put them in separate files if I have to PR pathos

No1 oop enjoyer in all of sdv modding

[devout vault]

Even enums that only have two or three values

Drives me insane

JA was the main culprit I believe

[safe dragon]

every time I look at pathos code I'm brought back to being told how it "should be done" by people that I've increasingly become wary of

I don't look at it very often tho

pathos code is very enterprise C# approved from what I've seen

[devout vault]

Pathos's stuff does seem a bit overengineered at times (looking at you, ValueProvider stuff in CP), but it can come in handy sometimes

[devout vault]

Yeah

Big aversion to static fields, while I use them kinda liberally 😂

(Sometimes you can't avoid them with modding, but that doesn't mean Pathos wouldn't try)

[pliant snow]

was everything just one giant file

[safe dragon]

I put enums in the same file as whatever uses it regularly

only once I end up using it for something else too I'll move it out

[devout vault]

Like, the whole dependency injection with constructors thing

[devout vault]

JA was pretty close

[devout vault]

ME too

[devout vault]

I hate this, I much prefer just referencing a static field

[rain apex]

I use a lot of nested enums

Bc it's literally used only here

[devout vault]

Like I will use nested types a bunch for data models especially.

Which means they tend to go in the same file (unless you abuse partial classes)

[rain apex]

For modding code I mostly just don't think there's a difference between a static class and a singleton and usually i pick static class

[red crest]

but what if someone else wants to use it somewhere else

[safe dragon]

dependency injection is quite different from static fields unless you mean state singletons in which case yeah whatever it's just the same with different dressing

[devout vault]

But Pathos's style is closer to no nested types I feel like

[rain apex]

They should submit an official requisition form then

[devout vault]

I mean stuff like how Pathos will pass IMonitor into various things constructors, while I'll just use a static field referencing it on my mod class (or pretty close to that, anyways)

[safe dragon]

dependency injection is a cornerstone of ASP.NET Core development (and really wonderful)

[devout vault]

I get why it's useful for things unit tests and stuff

[rain apex]

Singleton like a class that's instantiated one time only

[devout vault]

But that's not feasible for most things in modding anyways

[red crest]

i personally kinda like Pathos's code style but I don't really follow it myself very much but I like it more from the perspective of code that many people may touch and modify, which is more true for content patcher than it is for my mods

[safe dragon]

most of the stuff I inject has to be unique per http request I'm handling so they're scoped services. Static fields just would not work

[devout vault]

Yeah, it's useful for that

[devout vault]

I mean they would if it was one instance of the executable per request, but that's not really how that works right?

[red crest]

don't have to restructure a bunch of content patcher just to use an enum somewhere else

[devout vault]

Yeah... but on the another hand, everything is internal, so I can't commit crimes against it from another mod

[safe dragon]

definitely not...

[devout vault]

So it's less useful that it would be otherwise from that perspective

[red crest]

publicizer my beloved

(but also I meant like if I was PRing CP and wanted to use the enum in the new feature I was adding)

enum not the strongest example I just wanted to light-heartedly poke at chu more

[devout vault]

I've never used publicizer

[safe dragon]

wait I think I remember looking this up and being terrified

[red crest]

Publicizer?

[safe dragon]

it just makes everything public doesn't it

[devout vault]

(I figured, but my mind is geared towards code crimes)

[red crest]

It makes whatever you want public, which need not be everything

[rain apex]

I thought u can just use ClassName.EnumClassName tho

[safe dragon]

that's such a modder thing to want

[red crest]

which if where I'm using it is not related to ClassName at all, looks kind of wrong innit

[rain apex]

I do that for various game nested enums

The argument is kinda philosophical then, are you breaking the original design by using enum in a part of code where the ClassName is totally out of place

Or does it make sense with full name spelled out

[red crest]

you wouldn't be if it was not a nested enum to begin with

[safe dragon]

don't think I've ever in my life nested an enum

[rain apex]

Cus what if it is like OtherClass.Flavor

[cinder karma]

This

[safe dragon]

I'm not sure I've ever tried if that was possible

[red crest]

who says I can't use flavors elsewhere

[cinder karma]

One place I break from Pathos style

[red crest]

Why should it be nested

[cinder karma]

Enums are nested until a second class wants it

I'm also very enum happy

[rain apex]

The argument is that the ClassName is important qualifying info for this particular enum

[red crest]

(to be clear I also nest my enums until they're needed elsewhere but again my mods aren't being touched by multiple people)

i don't know if I think the class name should be that important to an enum