programmers-off-topic

[safe dragon]

fancy

I can count the number of design documents for that cash register application on 0 hands

[steel kraken]

this is the only piece of documentation I have for the entire project thats not just the codebase

but there isn't a great way to notate these relationships in code well that translates visually

and like all documentation that isn't derived from the codebase it got out of sync with the actual implementation

[safe dragon]

that seems to always happen

I've grown weary of external documentation for anything except the public api

[steel kraken]

even public api I would like derived from codebase so I can setup safe guards to detect when breaking changes to the public api are going to happen and force an intervention

[safe dragon]

I mean true. A auto generated swagger page is better than a word document with a list of endpoints and parameters

as obvious example

though my current job definitely has a few APIs that are documented through shitty SharePoint pages

generally 8 years out of date

[steel kraken]

Microsoft would do stuff like https://github.com/dotnet/dotnet/blob/62f14c86cdaf4dddf76961c0b5d2dd52304fd122/src/source-build-reference-packages/src/externalPackages/src/humanizer/src/Humanizer.Tests/ApiApprover/PublicApiApprovalTest.approve_public_api.approved.txt where if the file contents changes for whatever reason that would require further scrutiny particularly when its deletions and modifications

Their stance may have changed as this seems like one of the only ones I could find, it used to be more common in their repos

[devout vault]

I mean I did format it - more so than a single line anyways - though I can’t tell specifically what you did since I’m on mobile now.

And again, this variant only had two types. What if had a variant with more????

I started thinking about “what if I want more than a single primitive of bools” and then I remembered std::vector<bool> 💀

[devout vault]

I still hate ms docs if only because of the huge variety of now-dead links, and things you just outright can’t find anymore

[devout vault]

That’s pretty close to what I thought I did - I mean, not parenthesis on their own lines, and hold alternative was both on one line per pair.

Or so I recall, maybe I didn’t, or maybe it messed up when pasting

I have qualms about you putting parenthesis on their own lines but not the and/or operators. 😛 if you go that far why not go all the way

yes I’m a heathen that puts else and the brackets on three separate lines why do you ask

[steel kraken]

I'm quite inconsistent in that aspect, and C# has made me worse as a result

my C# brain tells me the parenthesis should be on their own line, but my everything else brain likes them at the end of the line

being consistent I would have probably formatted it more like

ignoring most of the whitespace stuff in the middle as most of that was just preserved from your original

the main thing for me was indenting the nested brackets and each 'entry' in the and/or on their own lines so I could see it all on screen without horizontal scrolling and knowing what statements tie into what other statements

[crystal wren]

I'm not really picky about this one, personally. Except that I find ) { much smoother to type than ) <enter> {.

[dusty pollen]

iirc I did the same thing when I was making a monopoly clone!

[cursive sigil]

and diagrams are fun

[steel kraken]

PHP was my first real language so its conventions that align with js and Java are what feels normal to me, and the new line is awkward.
but I've given up fighting against visual studio and C# conventions a long time ago

[safe dragon]

for the most part I just stick to convention unless I think it's genuinely hurting readability

[cinder karma]

Oh, pretty!

The pendant in me says the arrows aren't annotated

[cinder karma]

Lol

May I suggest

if (thingie) begin 
       statement 
end else begin
       statement
end

Oh! I should show off some of the fork statements I have

[crystal wren]

Begin/end essentially being scopes?

[cinder karma]

Yeah

[cinder karma]

Forks are weird in verilog too

[devout vault]

skill issue

[crystal wren]

I mean true... but also that.

Framework event about to start. I'll report here with the disappointing news that it isn't Framework 16 related.

16 on screen immediately...

New mainboard, new graphics modules...

RTX 5070 graphics, so not bad.

[cyan shadow]

That's pretty good, even

[crystal wren]

It'll be a bit sad if it's just Nvidia, though.

Yeah, looks like it is just Nvidia for the newer graphics.

[dusty pollen]

-# the pedant in me says it's pedant, not pendant /lh

[cyan shadow]

Ah, yeah, that's unfortunate

[crystal wren]

The major choices for the 16 now.

[ivory shadow]

I am slightly annoyed that they waited till now to upgrade the main board when I bought mine earlier this year, but it's not like mine is slow

[crystal wren]

Yeah, that does suck a bit. Worst case, upgrade in a few years, and you have a little server board for... something.

[safe dragon]

ah they did the 16 inch upgrade now

[hushed raven]

Are the bots on this server source available? I'm bored and fancy a bit of a delve into python

[cyan shadow]

ye, on github

[hushed raven]

Sorry, I'm like completely clueless as to where I could find the github for them, do they themselves have a command for the github or is there somewhere on the server that has it?

Oh wait nevermind, I think I've found it!

[cyan shadow]

[crystal wren]

https://codeberg.org/aquova/bouncer/ and https://codeberg.org/aquova/governor respectively for the main two!

Aquo moved them over to Codeberg. Maybe the GitHub repos are kept up to date? Honestly not sure.

[dusty pollen]

I think farm computer is pillow, which probably means github

and there's some stuff in blueberry's github too (I think jukebox?)

[hushed raven]

Oh perfect thank you! Decided to give making a modular discord bot a go so seeing how specific things are done with them is great to get a better understanding of them

[crystal wren]

Leah is probably on Blueb's account...

[dusty pollen]

I think aquo mentioned being the leah dev?

but I could be misremembering

[crystal wren]

https://github.com/b-b-blueberry/leah

[dusty pollen]

there we go misremembering it is

[cyan shadow]

ah yeah, i'd forgotten about the great migration lol

[hushed raven]

were they migrated due to issues surrounding github or just to get rid of MS?

[crystal wren]

I think the latter, but @pliant snow. Don't wanna put words in your mouth!

[steel kraken]

Oh thats actually hype, as Nvidia has been very strict on what form factors you can put nvidia mobile gpu's in, and has previously veto'd people doing the modular approach

[pliant snow]

microsoft is the devil

[hushed raven]

accurate, very much so

[crystal wren]

That's a very good point! I'd be willing to bet their cooperation came at the price of not having an AMd upgrade this generation.

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6595 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1409930513833263174)

[safe dragon]

wtf aquo moved the repos

illegal

[pliant snow]

Johnny Microsoft can't hold me back

I did put a message on the github repos that I'd moved them

[devout vault]

You can stay for now, but you're on thin ice

[safe dragon]

an iceberg

wait no that's thick ice

[devout vault]

That ice that forms at the top of a glass of water that's been in the freezer just long enough to be deliciously cold, but not long enough to be reasonably solid

[pliant snow]

t-thanks?

[devout vault]

it's not a good thing - you basically can't stand on it

I just said "deliciously" cold because I like my water artic temperature

[pliant snow]

arctic

[safe dragon]

artic cause it's art

[devout vault]

.choose gamecube game modding crimes, C++ code crimes

[heavy dagger]

Choose result: C++ code crimes

[devout vault]

Runtime reflection it is

Uh CLion are you okay

"Huh why does CLion think I have this file open on another window already"

[next shore]

huh

[hushed raven]

For people who've used git LFS and used an alternative, what alternative was it an why did you decide to use it? currently debating whether to use it for the vscode extension releases

[dusty pollen]

are your releases that big?

[hushed raven]

absolutely not, but I want to store them seperatly as I don't particularly want to delete any (and there may be many releases)

[dusty pollen]

I think you can already do that through regular github?

I don't think releases are stored in the repo itself for most repos

(it would be very strange for exactly the reason you said)

[hushed raven]

Oh, I thought they were, this has been a learning experience, I've only ever used git for basic version control and not releases, good to know thatnk you!

[dusty pollen]

I've actually never used them either but I know that in any repo I've seen that had releases, they weren't in the repo itself

[thin estuary]

yup. repos themselves are for code, maybe assets. but not releases

[hushed raven]

Just read up on the releases, it seems to literally just be uploaded local files, which tbh isn't the best place for storing them as I frequently mess up my computer

[thin estuary]

the Releases part of Github is on the side of the repo, not in it

[dusty pollen]

well once they're uploaded they aren't local, are they? so that seems like a solution if anything

unless you're wanting to do the building online, which I don't think github can really support tbh

[hushed raven]

Building locally is what I've been doing, I was under the impression that the releases were linked from the repo, now that I know it's just local files uploaded and stored seperately that makes it a lot better, thank you!

[dusty pollen]

I'm sure there's a way to use the github actions or CI to do some kind of automation in some cases but yeah, the default way to do it is just uploading a local file

[hushed raven]

CI/CD is still something I'm masssively unfamilliar with, looking at a basic explanation of it, it looks to be possible (that will be looked at further after I figure out what things to add to the git ignore and vscode ignore files)

[steel kraken]

git lfs is for large binary files that you don't really need any of gits special sauce on doing smart diffs but do still want to logically be part of the repo and instead they get stored in lfs instead and git just knows the file reference.
Examples would be for large images or audio tracks or certain other assets

tbh not worth exploring until you are already hitting performance problems in git first

[sand frost]

I just made a gitignore to not synch any large video/image files

It’s not going to work for backing them up obviously but it worked for avoiding headaches

I stored mine in consistently named subfolders for the gitignore

[dusty pollen]

I like CI/CD stuff but I don't think it's necessary for most of what I do haha

[hushed raven]

In that case I'll just add them to be ignored and upload the releases manually, git is great, but confusing

[dusty pollen]

tbh /bin and /obj directories (or wherever it is you put build stuff) are like the first thing that's supposed to go in the gitignore

[steel kraken]

git lfs is for huge things that you do want to be synced with other people but dont want git itself to be the thing storing/tracking it

bin/obj are ephemeral enough that are better to be gitignore'd, though CI/CD should run the compile to get its own bin folder to upload as artifacts

[hushed raven]

I'm pretty sure the bin/obj (or their alternatives in the case of vs extensions) are automatically added to ignore

[sand frost]

I don’t automatically have a gitignore but I also do most things manually

[lethal walrus]

if you create it with a preset template yes, but git doesn't automatically ignore them

[cinder karma]

https://youtu.be/tD46WVJ2h9I?si=KuC7DwadQz4Ti_6k

[safe dragon]

smh political

[safe dragon]

there's something weirdly beautiful about a very serious company very seriously talking about legitimate malware that's called gayfemboy https://www.fortinet.com/blog/threat-research/iot-malware-gayfemboy-mirai-based-botnet-campaign

Gayfemboy uses the string “meowmeow” as a trigger to activate its backdoor functionality.

[hushed raven]

furries run the internet, and femboys run the malware

[safe dragon]

well then we're truly fucked considering the 3rd domain...

[hushed raven]

Bahahah that's amazing

called it before even looking at the link

the figure names, I just can't take this seriously at all

[lethal walrus]

im surprised i-kiss-boys[.]com wasn't taken already for something like boykisser.mov

[cinder karma]

I love zombies

Zombie processes

[safe dragon]

[cinder karma]

Tbh it would be fun if they made a marketplace

And more rooms

[safe dragon]

ah the knitting bean

I should've known you'd get that game

[sonic mirage]

You really should have

[cinder karma]

The two games atra plays

[pliant snow]

I'm secretly playing around with using a WSL instance as my default shell at work... we'll see how this goes

[safe dragon]

very secret

[steel kraken]

my current work setup is incredibly jank

Windows PC with a windows VM running on hyperv that has the corporate windows environment setup inside it, which then is using WSL, and inside WSL has docker running

[cinder karma]

I'm on a windows machine vnc into a Linux machine and then vnc into another Linux machine

The first machine is xterm and the second is gnome

So I have three layers of taskbar

[pliant snow]

tf

[rain apex]

Why can't you just ssh like normal people

[cinder karma]

Because we do need gui

But also because we dont have a proper load balancer

So I launch sims on whatever machine I have access to that is least busy

[dusty pollen]

I need to try this tbh, I refuse to learn windows shell stuff

how easy was it to set up?

[crystal wren]

So I've been playing with Go lately, and it's got some... quirks. One I really like, and another I... like, but also kinda hate?

[pliant snow]

It was pretty simple. You have to have an idea of how to set up Linux, but the windows part wasn't bad. You can still invoke windows exes from it too

[steel kraken]

wsl is great, and it even aliases wsl with bash.exe so in an existing windows terminal session can just boot up bash and be in a real linux environment

the vscode integration can also do fun things where it will run it all inside the WSL environment but keep the gui and editor itself in windows

[safe dragon]

I definitely didn't read this correctly the first time

[safe dragon]

enlighten us

[cinder karma]

Look, crumble

I play 2 video games

In one you hit a button and be productive instead

In the other you learn French

I'm a deeply broken person

[safe dragon]

it's ok I accept the knitting bean game

[crystal wren]

So the multiple return values is cool, I like that. But the other thing...

func main() {
    tenElementArray := [10]int{1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 10}
    twoElementArray := [2]int{1, 2}
    IterateAndPrintArray(tenElementArray)
    IterateAndPrintArray(twoElementArray) // Nope. Can't do this.
}

Because when you take an array as a parameter...

func IterateAndPrintArray(array [10]int) {
    for i, value := range array {
        fmt.Printf("Index %d: %d\n", i, value)
    }
}

You need to specify the number of elements in it. The number of elements more or less forms part of the type as far as the compiler's concerned.

[cinder karma]

Yeah you basically have to use an array view

[safe dragon]

surely go has slices

[crystal wren]

It does!

So you can use those.

It's just such a funky design decision for a language like Go.

[cinder karma]

Yup, you use a slice most kf the time unless you actually want to constrain the array length

[safe dragon]

actually I believe go slices are absolutely cursed where you can append records in a slice which does very weird things if it was a slice of a larger array

yup...

func main() {
    originalArray := []int{1, 2, 3, 4}
    slice := originalArray[1:2]

    fmt.Println("Original array", originalArray)
    fmt.Println("Slice", slice)

    fmt.Println("Appending to slice...")
    slice = append(slice, 5, 6)

    fmt.Println("Original array", originalArray)
    fmt.Println("Slice", slice)
}

it "appended" the items over the original items in those slots in the array

so 3 and 4 are just gone

it gets more fun however

func main() {
    originalArray := []int{1, 2, 3, 4}
    slice := originalArray[1:3]

    fmt.Println("Original array", originalArray)
    fmt.Println("Slice", slice)

    fmt.Println("Appending to slice...")
    slice = append(slice, 5, 6)

    fmt.Println("Original array", originalArray)
    fmt.Println("Slice", slice)
}

The only change here is that the original slice was made 1 larger

now the original array is left intact and the slice essentially stop being a view into the original array but its own array

the difference is is that appending 2 records to this slice would've caused the original array to exceed its capacity which causes golang to clone it and turn the slice into its own array instead of a view into the original array

... This is why you can't append to Span in C# or slices in rust

[safe dragon]

if you manually increase the capacity higher than what it would default to it would overwrite the original array again

[cinder karma]

What is silksong

[safe dragon]

a game

one that was announced a lot of years ago and people(including me) have been waiting for

[crystal wren]

A game that means I need to get this next MEEP update out before the 4th, or it won't be out for like a month. /hj

[rain apex]

Skong

[cinder karma]

Oh

[fleet wren]

skong

the blessed skong is cometh

[cinder karma]

Not a yarn

[devout vault]

Eh, that kinda makes sense to some extent. C++ does the same thing with std::array (more as a consequence of templates though). If you want any size you’d pass iterators, or use a vector, or maybe an array view these days

Wait, I thought Silksong was a collective fever dream by the residents of r/silksong (/s)

[heavy dagger]

https://reddit.com/r/silksong

[devout vault]

It was fun checking in every often and seeing how feral they were. The end of an era 😔

However we are getting KAR 2 before GTA 6, so…

[cinder karma]

I was told it's a new yarn line

I reject your reality and replace it with my own

[safe dragon]

oh good

a major path of exile 2 update launching today

not even a week before silksong steals my life

[devout vault]

Well would you rather it have come out the day before silksong instead

[safe dragon]

tbh

in that scenario I could just tell myself I won't bother with the PoE2 update till later

[fleet wren]

it is both, a collective madness that, through the sheer power of pure belief, breached the veil that separates imagination and reality to manifest in our existence

[safe dragon]

mass delusion

it's like the fairies in the original peter pan only being able to live as long as people believe in their existence

[cinder karma]

It's very pretty

[dusty pollen]

what about kidsilk

that's a popular blend

[devout vault]

Is r /silksong a group of warhammer orks

Speaking of delusions

Discord what are you on

[devout vault]

But if I update there's probably more copilot nonsense 😔

[pliant snow]

Short answer: Yes — Visual Studio 2022/2023 17.14 increases Copilot integration compared with earlier 17.x releases.

Details:
Microsoft’s 17.14 update expanded built-in GitHub Copilot and Copilot Chat hooks in the IDE — more UI entry points (tool windows, editor overlays, menu items) and deeper telemetry/control surfaces for Copilot features.
You’ll likely see additional prompts, buttons, and context menus related to Copilot and Copilot Chat unless you disable or remove them.
You can reduce or remove the visible Copilot surfaces by:
Disabling the Copilot/Extensions from Extensions > Manage Extensions (uninstall or disable GitHub Copilot extensions).
Turning off Copilot/AI features in Tools > Options (look for “GitHub Copilot”, “Copilot Chat”, or “IntelliCode” settings) and disabling related experiment/preview features.
Removing or hiding Copilot tool windows (View > Other Windows) and resetting window layout.
Using Group Policy / VS policies in enterprise environments to block the extension or automatic updates.

[devout vault]

💀

Will the bubble pop soon please

[safe dragon]

yeah these days when I reach the patch notes half of them are copilot related

[fleet wren]

you know what text editor will never have ai built in

[safe dragon]

notepad

actually never mind honestly

nano

[devout vault]

Yeah notepad already does 😔

I've always wanted notepad to turn my error log into poetry /s

[lethal walrus]

but what is error log poetry

[devout vault]

I mean I can't post AI content on this server, so you'll have to try it yourself

[fair flume]

Attempting to fix the json script so that it can fit the new dimensions of this hat. Uhhhhh help

No clue if this is a programming or art question

[dusty pollen]

is this for a mod? if so #making-mods-general

[fair flume]

aight lemme move there

[hushed raven]

If I didn't uninstall notepad the moment I installed windows I'd try error log poetry, I am very intregued

[lethal walrus]

I love how consistent emoji domains are, for 🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️🏳️‍⚧️.ws:

1. Firefox just does not convert it to punycode and will search for it
2. Chrome on android converts it to xn--1ugaa278dbab25773fcac.ws
3. Porkbun, and therefore the actual registered domain converts it to xn--c8haa97438bbab.ws which makes linking the non-punycode version pointless

[devout vault]

First they put emojis in variable names, and now they're trying to do it to our domain names. smh

[lethal walrus]

Only a few TLDs

.to, .ws, .ua (and its second levels), .Co.uz, .Co.kz, .Radio.am, .radio.fm iirc

[devout vault]

I still don't quite understand the double tlds

Like are they not just domain name = co, tld = uz (for your first example of it) and a bunch of subdomains?

[lethal walrus]

afaik it's similar on the dns level but different.. maybe?

I have no idea tbh

Like I've seen .it.com on a lot of registrars and I have no idea if that's just someone who bought .it.com or is it a thing from verisign

[thin estuary]

back in the day, .com.pl was popular in Poland

kinda makes sense

[steel kraken]

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Glossary/eTLD

[devout vault]

I don't have the attention span to read mdn 😄

[steel kraken]

Tldr it's for when the TLD operators didn't offer domains directly off the TLD but only off certain approved domains, a lot of country domains were like this with .com.au .net.au .org.au mirroring the standard TLDs which some assume was just the us

I had a networking teacher that genuinely believed example.com secretly became example.com.us

Outside of that easily falsable belief was the best networking teacher in the institution

[prisma flume]

.co.uk is the standard in britain iirc, and .com.au in australia (or .gov.uk, .gov.au, etc)

figures it's unusual if you're used to american websites as the default, which i've only ever seen use .com

(or the various other common tlds, but without a second)

[pliant snow]

idk how common ones like .co.uk are anymore. I feel like I used to always see them like 15 years ago, maybe theres just so many tlds now

[prisma flume]

mmm, likely just part of a homogenous conglomerate internet

you'd see them all the time if you had to use services and such there

feels like if you're online often in a certain demographic these days you're really only going to run into .com/.io while browsing

[worn remnant]

bbc.co.uk was still in use as recently (?) as "we're just normal men", if that helps anyone (it does not)

[prisma flume]

apparently you're not the only ones confused, since the bbc seems to have trapped me in some kind of incredible feedback loop

[dusty pollen]

still the standard here in the UK!

[dusty pollen]

I'm pretty sure that's an attempt to redirect you to the US version

I actually had a <legal name>.co.uk domain for a while

[steel kraken]

for whatever reason my microsoft account is a live.co.uk despite never being in the UK nor using VPNs

its really funny as it gets extremely british scam mail as well

[safe dragon]

lmao

[hushed raven]

.co.uk is still the main domain for the UK, you'd either find .com or .co.uk, typically national services use .uk, sometime you do find other none country based TLDs like .info or .org, and education related things are different again with .edu.uk

[hushed raven]

That is certainly a scam, TV license don't send emails, only vaguely threatening letters about paying you a visit, and then never ever turn up

[steel kraken]

They also don't send them to people living in Australia

[hushed raven]

Also a very good point

although not the most unusual thing they'd do

[cinder karma]

TV license

[dusty pollen]

there's a lot on .gov.uk too

schools are on .sch.uk, unis are on .ac.uk

[cinder karma]

The closest I get to stardew these days is googling "how do I grow a leek" and every other result being stardew

Why is it leeks specifically

I didnt get this with any other crop

You can't even grow leeks in stardew!

I don't want leeks for George I want leeks for me!

[steel kraken]

Australia heavily uses .gov and subdomains by state, like https://transport.vic.gov.au and has an edu.au that also subdomains so my highschool was <school-name>.vic.edu.au

[safe dragon]

I haven't played sdv at any real capacity since smapi even existed

thankfully I also never google anything about leeks

[cinder karma]

How do I grow a leek, though 🙁

[hushed raven]

I know in wales you can grow them anywhere dafodills grow, which is quite literally everywhere, best to plant in spring and harvest during the late winter months (I love leaks, basically george at this point)

[cinder karma]

Ah, I'm in North Texas, so I have the problem of the summer heat and drought. So usually I need to first figure out if whatever I want is drought and heat resistant

[hushed raven]

Www for texas I'd say stamford leaks are probably your best bet, they prefer full sun and warmer temps, you still may need to cover them if they start to get sun burn

stamford also do well grown closeish together improving yeild per area

[cinder karma]

Thank you 💖

[hushed raven]

I wish you well on your leak growing journey!

[dusty pollen]

yup, my secondary school was <school>.<borough>.sch.uk

[crystal wren]

...sch.uk? That's a new one to me!

[hushed raven]

sch.uk is also a new one to me too, did they use moodle by chance?

[devout vault]

The humble wild spring seeds:

[cinder karma]

.....where do i buy spring seeds irl

And can I grow a parsnips in 4 days

[safe dragon]

yes

sdv is accurate to real life

[robust quarry]

just wait for green rain and use mixed seeds next spring 🙄 there's global warming im sure green rain will come soon
(wanna clarify that I'm joking about doing this irl, I suck at tone sometimes over text )

[dusty pollen]

no, this was pre Moodle! common in this area but I guess not in others haha

they've also since moved to a .org address, as have several other schools in this area, because they seem to think it looks sleeker/cooler

(or it might have been the fact that even without including the domain name, www, protocol or .s, their URL was already over ten letters. iirc my school had an over ten character domain name, so the whole thing together was lengthy)

[devout vault]

Hmm. I want to work on a game project, but:

• The C# project needs me to finish the angelscript swig binding, and also still swap out the ECS. Neither of which I'm enthused about.
• The C++ homebrew project needs me to finish the C++ runtime reflection thing (because why write a couple dozen lines of registering things to the script engine when I can write hundreds to automate parts and let me do it in just a few). Which I'm also not excited to work on
  

[cursive sigil]

how about you do something else instead for now? idk maybe play some minecraft?

[lethal walrus]

Or maybe even start on a third project to not have to do the other two

[devout vault]

[cinder karma]

Dont listen to the chaos demons

The angelscript seems fun

[devout vault]

Technically they both are angelscript

(The reflection thing is for angelscript)

[safe dragon]

tf is angelscript

is that one of those failed attempts at replacing Javascript

[dusty pollen]

thank you for sparing me from having to ask

[safe dragon]

damn it's not

[devout vault]

https://www.angelcode.com/angelscript/

[dusty pollen]

my first thought was holyC/templeOS' version of javascript lmao

[devout vault]

Sounds like a great idea

[safe dragon]

angelscript was used to create the much acclaimed game SuperTuxKart

[devout vault]

wat

Why was it used for the switch remaster

The original isn't on there - is it only on here because it was discovered via homebrew?

But then it should've been discovered from GC iso stuff

[dusty pollen]

templeos and holyc are some of those bits of bizarre hobbyist programming lore that you have to stumble across one day and will never be able to explain to anyone

[dusty pollen]

maybe it really is only the remaster?

[devout vault]

Yeah but like

Why only the remaster

Why would a remaster add a whole new scripting thing

[dusty pollen]

I'm confused what functionality this even provides for a game

[devout vault]

It's a scripting language? Same sort of thing you'd use lua for, except it's a bit more capable on the script side

[dusty pollen]

oh I guess I kind of get it? sort of maybe?

[devout vault]

I mainly wanted to use it back in ye olde days because Code::Blocks didn't have any sort of C++ hot reloading

And if hot reload is difficult on consoles, it could make sense to use a scripting language in that case sense you could send new scripts over the network or something on debug builds?

but part of the reason I'm thinking now, besides hot reload, is to avoid dealing with pointers

[hushed raven]

pointers are both fun and a hell I don't even wish on my worst enemy

can't wait until I find out how to irrevocably damage my computer with pointers

[devout vault]

Just make a custom OS and do pointers on there

Maybe you can accidentally short something!

[cinder karma]

Jump and catch fire

[hushed raven]

Whos says I need a custom OS to short something? I'm clumsy enough in my daily life to do that anyway

[steel kraken]

on paper isn't even particularly hard, other than that the OS/Kernel at least tries to minimize how much that is possible in user space

[cinder karma]

Of course it isnt hard on paper

Just open up the computer and drop some shredded paper in

[lethal walrus]

having to boot into windows for the first time in a month it's very sad (need it to do chkdsk on C:)

[sand frost]

Missed opportunity for a punch card joke

Just drop all your punch cards on the floor, pick them up in some order, and put them back in

[lethal walrus]

Oh it didn't even need to chkdsk lol

[lethal walrus]

and it still doesnt mount..?

oh i just did sudo mount and it worked lol

[rain apex]

how do ppl do bitmaps in C# usually

do u just use a short

[steel kraken]

flagged enums?

[rain apex]

no like, i want to use upper 4 bits to store something

and lower 4 bits to store another thing

this other thing is arbitrary

[worn remnant]

if C# does <<, &, |, ~, etc. like i expect it does given its heritage, i'd probably use a byte and a property or something

[rain apex]

yea ig thats ok

[steel kraken]

in my experience unless you are writing to disk and really want to save space then maybe?
otherwise its not remotely worth it

[rain apex]

i just want to use hasflag

[steel kraken]

its just so slow to read/write partial bits, CPU's want to work on the entire word at the time

[rain apex]

but dw i talked myself out of that and im doing the oop

[steel kraken]

it really shows its age when its not comparing to anything actively used anymore (other than jQuery which new things dont fully use but is still used a lot)

and even in its code examples, I would rather write the jquery code than the vanilla code as its actually readable

[sand frost]

Things I do not know but sadly believe I could know fairly easily:

• css
• JavaScript

Things i sadly probably do know:

• html (at least some)
• how to buy domain name
• a little about how to host website

Things I probably would have to actually suffer to learn:

• php

This is all of website right? Surely there is nothing else /s

[steel kraken]

if you want you can skip that last step and just use that javascript on the server too

[sand frost]

I know that words like Django exist but I do not look at them

[red crest]

django is python, do you know python

[sand frost]

Yeah I mean in the immortal words of my husband “doesn’t everyone know python? Just write pseudocode”

Husband is responsible for any websites in this household

[steel kraken]

that was me back in 2013-2016, where I thought in python (except list comprehension, fuck that)
before I fell in love with Typescripts type system

[red crest]

i actually do not know any python at all. blind spot for me

[sand frost]

List comprehension is fun! Not sure if performant but yknow

It’s Python so there’s a limit to performance anyways

[steel kraken]

once I got a taste for typescript, my attempts of using python again were just painful and even using the typing module or what not was still just a not fun time

[sand frost]

I never formally learned python, but the skill of “read some docs then write some code” is pretty much all I needed to at least get up and running

[steel kraken]

Almost all interesting problems don't care about performance anyway as you will be I/O bottlenecked

[sand frost]

There’s plenty i still don’t know

I deal with a lot of weird academic stuff so things like “what if I want to analyze a few thousand 1000x1000 pixel images in Python” comes up sometimes

Where like, ok sure we picked python bc of like, “academics are bad at code” and “relevant packages in python”, so how much can we expect, but also we need Python to not do dumb dumb things or it will never finish

[steel kraken]

just throw import multiprocessing at the problem

[sand frost]

Idk if that’s I/O bottlenecking bc literally just the RAM was kind of a problem there

[worn remnant]

no need to update perfection /lh

[steel kraken]

io bottleneck is generally network/filesystem

[sand frost]

I feel like when I’m doing things right it’s either maxing cpu or ram

[steel kraken]

anything interesting talks to a database and it will take a billion cpu cycles before you get the response back, so the inefficiency of python vs c or whatever becomes a rounding error

[sand frost]

But “have big matrix want do thing” is the main kind of problem I have

[rain apex]

why is it 25bytes compressed

[worn remnant]

gzip header

[steel kraken]

gzip has headers that dont shrink to 0

[sand frost]

Ah yeah we don’t know what the word database means 90% of the time

We just hardcode in a file naming convention usually

If we really have to we use an excel spreadsheet

[steel kraken]

when I first started at current employer™, it took us like a year to actually start using a database, we were in poc land where we just had the frontend ingesting csv files directly

[sand frost]

I think this is actually medium to high levels of quality for academia, too, I think some people just hardcode individual file names

[steel kraken]

and for some of the complex cases it would take 1-5min before chrome would unfreeze and finish that data processing and could play around in the data visualizations

splitting that to Ingest data write into database, have api to expose processed data to frontend means frontend now is snappy

[sand frost]

I guess i sometimes hit some kind of render bottleneck but it’s very hard to tell which thing is causing slow when it’s either matplotlib or matlab’s fault that rendering every frame of a simulation is darned slow

Unfortunately visualization is necessary for insight but I did add toggles to kill it when more speed is desired

[steel kraken]

My favorite data visualization to date is still my public transport timelapse https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2TZJG1MzvU4 which is 153mb of csv iirc

that one did have a server intemediary but the frontend did consume all of it iirc

[devout vault]

I love seeing a “hacking scene” and it’s all html

(To be fair, it’s clearly Wordpress, so maybe there were some insecure plugins… but I don’t think just html is enough still 😛 )

[supple ether]

I think just scrolling through decompiled CIL looks cool although I'm not sure if it looks like code

Honestly what I really want to see in a movie just once is someone looking at a file in a hex editor

It looks cool and hackery and it's something that might actually be genuinely useful

[steel kraken]

from memory the hacking scenes in Person of Interest actually looked realistic outside of using invalid ipv4 addresses for presumably liability reasons

also person of interest did use IRC for hackers to talk to other hackers

[safe dragon]

that's life in web api development

you have both 🙏 a round trip to the api and a round trip to the database

the code that happens in between is usually practically irrelevant as far as performance goes

you're better off minimizing memory usage to avoid bad GC pauses than to make the request a little bit faster

[steel kraken]

wow I'm using jd-gui again after a very long time and I'm somewhat in disbelief as to how much worse it is compared to ILSpy

[thin estuary]

did it improve at all since 15 years ago?

[dusty pollen]

throwback to the professor who said my pseudocode syntax was incorrect because it was too python-like

[steel kraken]

not that I can tell outside of maybe handling newer versions of java

[lethal walrus]

I find recaf to be a lot less painful than jdgui

[steel kraken]

will it do the fun analysis stuff that ILSpy does?

[lethal walrus]

What are the fun analysis things

[steel kraken]

being able to just click a method call and find all the places that method is called

[lethal walrus]

Maybe?

[steel kraken]

looks like it does, yay

[devout vault]

I’ve been using a command line tool when figuring out the c# to Java stuff, didn’t know jdgui would still work with modern Java class files

[steel kraken]

I mean the jar files I'm giving it are likely not very modern

but damn I don't miss all of this boilerplate getter/setter with a backing field

[weak junco]

Saw ppls talking about jquery - My take is that its still a bit more ergonomic than modern vanilla js APIs but man that $ symbol is useful for other frameworks

[hushed raven]

I had a similar thing, its pseudo code, it literally cannot have wrong syntax unless you're using only symbols, even then the brainfuck language exists

[lethal walrus]

at least windows isn't alone in being terrible at search

[steel kraken]

that just seems like the search just isn't priority sorted, and matched on the til in utility

[lethal walrus]

it somehow gets ti and t right weirdly

[cinder karma]

Just don't have them all in memory at the same time

[dusty pollen]

if only python gave you the ability to control that

[dusty pollen]

(but also, numpy without vectorize. trust me. life changing speed differences. load all the images into a matrix at once and do the analysis with matrix operations)

(numpy isn’t built using python, iirc it’s coded in C, which is what allows the MUCH faster speeds because it can make use of hardware as efficiently as possible)

[cyan shadow]

Numpy is such a cute name lol

[safe dragon]

it's a good name

[dusty pollen]

when the python naming conventions accidentally end up working out

[safe dragon]

just like pandas

[dusty pollen]

sympy and scipy are less nice

[cyan shadow]

Scipy sounds like a bad misspelling of smapi

So does sympy, for that matter

[dusty pollen]

(numeric, symbolic and scientific python, respectively)

[cyan shadow]

But scipy has scampi vibes

Ah

[dusty pollen]

the difference is that pandas confuses me and I refuse to use it

[safe dragon]

lmao

[dusty pollen]

idk what frames and views are and I don’t feel like learning /lh

[cyan shadow]

Wtf is pandas

[lethal walrus]

python graphing library iirc

oh data analysis

[cyan shadow]

That makes more sense lmao

[safe dragon]

[cinder karma]

Pandas is fine

But yeah, vectorize your numpy

Dont have it all in memory at the same time (the del keyword exists btw)

[sand frost]

Yeah, that was our eventual conclusion

[devout vault]

Some animal in Minecraft idk

[dusty pollen]

do not vectorize your numpy

[sand frost]

Now that was something we never figured out

[dusty pollen]

numpy.vectorize = syntactic sugar for a for loop

[cinder karma]

Wait, is it do or don't

Ah, that, yeah

Use the built ins

[sand frost]

But hey, the project is dead unless I revive it

[dusty pollen]

and I'm not convinced del actually triggers gc

[sand frost]

So water under the bridge

[cinder karma]

https://techcrunch.com/2025/08/29/mastodon-says-it-doesnt-have-the-means-to-comply-with-age-verification-laws/

[devout vault]

Pandas are interesting, if only they were real

[cinder karma]

If it's the last reference

[sand frost]

(This was a grad school project and my former advisor could be most charitably described as “absent”)

[dusty pollen]

is that a cpython thing or part of the official language definition?

[cyan shadow]

Technically the owner of each instance is the one that has to comply anyway

Oops ping

The entity Mastodon doesn't have to comply aside from the instances they run

[cinder karma]

Might be a cpython thing,

[cyan shadow]

Since they only provide the infrastructure and not the actual service (mastodon social notwithstanding)

[cinder karma]

(Python has an official language definition? I kid I kid)

[safe dragon]

much like its type hints the language definition is entirely optional (/s)

[devout vault]

Wow, someone stole my idea (and actually did it, to be fair)
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qy_9w_c2ub0

(Also, using the parts from an existing phone instead is much simpler than I was thinking)

But also the numbers aren't on a dedicated row 😔

[rain apex]

Welcome back blackberry

[devout vault]

don't you mean welcome back-berry

[hushed raven]

I tried doing something similar to this, it didn't work in the end due to not having knowledge of android under the hood, if I had the funds and time to do it now, I certainly give it another go (and attempt to make it modular)

[cinder karma]

Til: the airline with a gamer class

https://youtu.be/onIVs2i0vkM?si=WPjLGlrhm4LwGBag

[lethal walrus]

that took far too long

[pliant snow]

for what

[primal shore]

Hello! I'm kind of curious and wondering others' thoughts on a BS in computer science vs. BS digital game development

Pros vs cons & think it's good idea to do both?

(Please ping on reply, thank you!)

[crystal wren]

The first. Alternatively, option 1. In even more words, the first choice.

Even if you exclusively wanted to do game development... the first.

[worn remnant]

gotta agree with DH here, plain jane CS is the way to go

[primal shore]

Thank you, I will totally have that be plan A then

[safe dragon]

I got a computer science degree with a specialization in game technologies so a kind of similar idea.

I'd say go with option 1 for sure. Option 2 locks you out of a lot of jobs while option 1 doesn't even lock you out of game development anyway

[dusty pollen]

am I the only one whose cs degree is a BA

[crystal wren]

Yeah, option 1 will likely have a final year specialisation of game development anyway. It's just the degree title will remain more broadly useful and general.

[safe dragon]

no I'm also a bachelor's only scrub

[primal shore]

Do you think I'd have higher hiring chances with both for a video game company? Cause I was thinking I'd get CS first then maybe keep going to school for DGD while I look for jobs

[crystal wren]

Worst case scenario, the latter isn't computer science related at all, and it's more... soft, and less rigorous.

[dusty pollen]

no I mean I'm a bachelor of arts, not science

[safe dragon]

oh

artist

[dusty pollen]

my uni didn't do BSc degrees. only BAs, regardless of subject

[crystal wren]

It's hilarious to me that you could have a BA Theoretical Physics, for instance.

[primal shore]

That's... Interesting

[dusty pollen]

probably some of their traditional nonsense considering this uni is older than the aztecs and calculus

[primal shore]

Is option 2 pretty much a scam then? Will video game employers not care if I have another specialized degree?

[sand frost]

Unlikely, I bet they’d mostly hire on portfolio basis. At best it would give up a slight edge landing an interview. Game dev has been a wasteland for years, having a backup plan is critical.

[dusty pollen]

not a scam, just not massively helpful

[sand frost]

In the US double majoring is more common than overseas

[primal shore]

Thank you all so much for the insight!

[sand frost]

Is this US?

[primal shore]

Yes

[safe dragon]

even a basic portfolio would be more effective than the entire digital game dev degree as far as getting hired is concerned

[dusty pollen]

mostly because in most countries you apply to specific programmes and don't switch, so there has to be a preexisting programme for the specific combination you chose (e.g. maths and cs for me)

[sand frost]

Yeah, it’s not crazy to go for a double majoring if you’d be taking the classes anyways but definitely prioritize a basic normal CS major

[primal shore]

Hmm okay, I guess it might be pointless going to this symposium then

[safe dragon]

unless it just seems fun

[primal shore]

Thanks!!! Okay sure I'll go anyway. Maybe the credits I get in CS will apply for DGD and I won't need to take too many different credits to major in both

-# even though I'm also taking minors lol

[crystal wren]

Minors are such a confusing concept to people in the UK.

[safe dragon]

I don't think I've ever heard of anyone doing 2 majors. Honestly I learnt the word major from the internet in the first place. I just chose a bachelor's degree I wanted to pursue and picked courses from an available pool for that course

[crystal wren]

It's a very America specific thing, I believe?

[primal shore]

Yeah, very

[sand frost]

I double majored and like 3/4 of my students are also doing it, but they’re all a bunch of overachieving liberal arts/STEM crossovers

[safe dragon]

I do know a few people with 2 master's degrees

[sand frost]

I do only have one masters and I could have had none

[crystal wren]

Like from what I understand, you apply to the school/university and not the specific program you want to do? It's so different to that here.

[sand frost]

Yeah, though some schools make you declare an intent

And it can be hard to switch majors at some schools

[primal shore]

Yeah depends on the school

[sand frost]

The US I think is less homogeneous in some ways

[safe dragon]

ah yeah no you apply directly to a specific program here and your acceptance is based on that choice

[sand frost]

Tiny liberal arts schools, big state schools, tech schools all different

[primal shore]

Interesting

[crystal wren]

Yeah, no opportunity to mix in smaller courses from other programs or anything like that.

[safe dragon]

I did do 1 course from the math program and it was a huge mistake

had no idea what was going on by the second week

[primal shore]

Wow... Is it just not an in-demand thing?

Feels like here you always need to be flexible with a plan A-Z

[safe dragon]

one thing I've always found odd about the US is that general education continues in college/uni

[crystal wren]

Yeah, the flexibility is something I kinda wish we did have.

[safe dragon]

I didn't even have a generic math course in my comp sci degree let alone anything else

[primal shore]

Money money money

[primal shore]

I'd imagine!!

[safe dragon]

linear algebra was part of the graphics course

had to learn complex math for image processing

[primal shore]

Thanks all! I have much to consider

[crystal wren]

Here, for instance: https://digital.ucas.com/coursedisplay/results/courses?searchTerm=computer science

1. Find a course
2. Apply for the course through UCAS (you don't even talk to the university directly)
3. You study the precise things the course consists of (with a couple of options here and here)
4. Done!

[primal shore]

The heck, that's so easy

[crystal wren]

I don't know if it's still the case, but you do have a limit of I think 5 applications?

[safe dragon]

that looks about right

[crystal wren]

They knock that down to 4 or 3, I forget which if you apply to Cambridge or Oxford.

[safe dragon]

I only signed up for 1 program

can't really call it apply cause you're usually guaranteed entry as long as you graduated high school at the correct level (do I explain the entire Dutch education system...)

the only degrees here where you really have to apply and might be denied are the extremely popular ones like psychology and medicine

those have entry exams

for me I just signed up and then that was that

[pliant snow]

Undergraduate schools here you apply just to be accepted into the school, with the expectation that not many 18 year olds really know what they want to do with their lives. You typically will declare your degree sometime in your first year. Graduate schools you're applying for the actual program tho

[pliant snow]

Even in the US minors don't have any purpose whatsoever. They're just an indication that you took a lot of courses in a second field, but not enough to actually get a degree in it. I've seen people mention some of those relevant courses, but I've never even put what minors I have on a resume

[primal shore]

Tbh only reason why I'm taking minor is because it was my previously declared major and I don't want it going to waste lmao

It's a business/administration one so could be useful for non-career jobs I apply for

[pliant snow]

That's kinda how they all go. I went "oh would you look at that, I guess I took enough math courses for a minor" and that was the last time I thought about it

[primal shore]

Yep! Lol

[sonic mirage]

A business-related minor was pretty common when I was in college

I started with one before I switched through 4 majors

[primal shore]

Which 4, out of curiosity?

[sonic mirage]

Well I initially wanted to do something with computers, but my dad convinced me that I wouldn't want to "sit behind a computer all day", so I went for Mechanical Engineering first. I did enjoy that, and still like engineering topics, but when I found out that you "only use 10% of what you learn in school on the job" I got really discouraged and started jumping around majors. Turns out that's actually just true for a lot of majors and I shouldn't have made such a big deal of it.

I did Physics for a semester, that was a terrible idea. I enjoyed the more entry-level Physics classes, but getting any more deep than that was no longer interesting lol

Then was in an Industrial Technology: Electronics major that had literally two other people in the whole school in it, and they kept changing the degree requirements every semester.

(there was an Industrical Technology: Manufacturing, too)

Turns out that one was less about designing things like home appliances and more like sitting at a bench soldering their circuitry together, so that whole major was a farce.

[primal shore]

-shudders- physics

More power to ya

[sonic mirage]

Luckily I took an Intro to Programming class as one of the many electives that major needed, and quickly switch to that for my final major

[primal shore]

That sounds so annoying I'm so sorry

[crystal wren]

I also pretty firmly believe that while the flexibility can be nice for personal interest, it's definitely intentionally designed in such a way to get more money out of people.

[primal shore]

Nice!

[sonic mirage]

Yeah the school was trying to figure out the program while we were taking it

[primal shore]

Honestly, schools should totally not charge for classes or as much if they're gonna do this

Cause that's just not fair

[sonic mirage]

Most of the vaguely-related-to-electronics classes I took for that major were at least interesting, mostly because they gave us a lot of freedom on what we could take

The electronics labs were good, too, since we did a lot of breadboarding out of circuits

As soon as I learned the degree was more to be a line worker than designer I switched to CS, though

If you're interested in comp sci, I'd recommend trying to do some small projects yourself. Getting a full degree isn't a bad idea necessarily, but it's very possible to be self-taught and land a job in the industry, so long as you can demonstrate real-world programming abilities and/or have some projects to show potential employers. It could save you a lot of student loan debt

[sand frost]

It's definitely very "hidden curriculum" that any majors that sound like "industrial technology" are intended as some odd flavor of trades training and intended for students who plan to be some kind of line worker

[crystal wren]

Portfolio is king... pretty much always.

[sand frost]

It's hard for me to give advice on CS degrees given waves hands the state of things — I know a lot of talented people who are struggling to land a job

[sonic mirage]

Yeah, I felt pretty betrayed by the counselor I dealt with when they eventually (reluctantly) revealed that to me

[sand frost]

I do think there's some value in just getting a bachelors, but it's not always clear that value has anything to do with the price tag

Certainly portfolio is king, but secretly a lot of things are networking and luck

[sonic mirage]

I think I got my current job based maybe half on my degree and half on what I'd taught myself about PHP/JS/CSS outside of school. Every job for programming is going to (or should) test your abilities some amount.

I remember the interviewer (my current team lead) being impressed that I even knew about ::before and ::after since they were pretty new at the time

(dating myself a bit lol)

[sand frost]

Oh yeah, for sure. But if the industry is going crunch I expect it gets harder to break in without a degree given like, the existence of HR

[sonic mirage]

Yeah I guess it's harder to say since I haven't exactly been in the job market for awhile

We did hire someone maybe 5 years ago that only went through a bootcamp, but I don't recall what creds the last guy we brought on has

[sand frost]

obviously this is anecdotal, but I have 3 brothers with CS degrees and only one of them is employed and it's not in CS per se

[sonic mirage]

Personally I know that doing projects after school was over taught me about as much practical programming as what I did in school. School was a lot of theory and low-level stuff.

I've been recommending people do some small projects in C# and then take one of the free MITx or HarvardX Intro to CS classes online for years to see if CS was for them or not

[dusty pollen]

still 5 but you can only apply to one or the other

[crystal wren]

Did I completely misremember? I swear they reduced the total amount at least when I was first applying!

[primal shore]

Yeah, I'd really love to deep dive into my own stuff!!

[dusty pollen]

definitely five, I would know

[crystal wren]

This was like... 2008/2009 thouigh, to be clear.

[primal shore]

Thank you for the advice!

[pliant snow]

Normally I would say yes, but I remember always paying a flat rate for the semester, regardless of how many courses I took, although it's been a while, maybe I'm misremembering

[crystal wren]

All I have are external observations of America's university system, so I'll go with that.

[sonic mirage]

The intro to cs classes are more technical, but teach you the invaluable base-level stuff that applies to basically all programming languages. I think it would be hugely helpful to have done a couple small things in C# beforehand though, just to give you at least some frame of reference. And I recommend C# because strongly-typed languages are more communicative of errors, and Visual Studio also can do some hand-holding when you're writing teh C# code.

[crystal wren]

I'm generally of the opinion that C#/Java are as high level as you should ever go for introductory stuff... but that might just be me.

[primal shore]

I'm primarily interested in C# just because of here

And if I catch onto a harder language first.. I think for me personally it would be easier to get the hard one out of the way

[crystal wren]

(And just for reference here, the higher, the easier.)

[primal shore]

Ahh gotcha

[sonic mirage]

C# also has a lot less "gotchas" than some other common languages like JS. Therefore most things you learn in C# can apply to other languages.

My intro to CS classes were in C++, but A) I haven't done any C++ since then and B) I don't think most programming jobs will use lower-level languages like that.

[primal shore]

Yeah that's what my intro to CS class will mostly be

I'm gonna look into C# before then

[crystal wren]

The Yellow Book gets a lot of praise.

[sonic mirage]

If you can do C++, then most other languages will be much easier. C++ can teach you some concepts that are good to know generally for programming, but it's not practical to use as a general-purpose language, hence why it's mostly only used for embedded and/or speed- / space-sensitive applications.

It's like C# hard-mode

[crystal wren]

Yeah, that's why I think ideally starting with something that uses manual memory management is best in the long run.

Just for the likelihood you ever need to care about things like where your things are going in memory, it's easier to learn it without being spoiled by it being automatic!

[pliant snow]

Don't listen to their lies, to use C# is to engage in a pact with the devil himself

[crystal wren]

As Casey is currently engaging in with C# and Java, yes.

[dusty pollen]

my uni forced us to use scala, I don't think I can still experience fear /lh

[devout vault]

I almost did that to get out of the some of the more advanced math/science requirements. instead I just dropped out

[devout vault]

Yeah I have no degree and worked professionally for a game studio in addition to with CA

[safe dragon]

I did a game technologies specialization and have never worked for any game studio 🙏

[devout vault]

Also, re:math - I hate matrices

Totally didn’t spend all day yesterday fighting them, and still haven’t finished

[sonic mirage]

Game Dev was a track you could take for our CS degree. I think it only really replaced a couple classes and then had a capstone project for workign on a game instead of working on the normal capstone. The normal capstone for us was a Photoshop-lite program, was a group project, and could be written in any language. One of the people in our group was already a professional that worked with C#, so they just did most of the project the first weekend after we got it and had us each implement a couple of the brushes for it by inheriting from their base class they'd written.

I decided against the game dev track at the time because I had no interest in dealing with crunch time, and being an indie dev was not really a thing, yet

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6615 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1412811086528516108)

[cinder karma]

(Tbh I put indie devs in the same category as restaurant owners.)

Some people make it big! But it's probably not you.

I think I'm more tolerant to crunch than most people

But I'm less tolerant to instability

Also it's a moot point that isnt where my talents lie anyways

[sonic mirage]

Well it used to be there were large game studios and that was it. Now there are studios of all sizes

[pliant snow]

In unrelated news, I made a dinky flappy bird clone with raylib as a test. I quite like it, many language bindings, pretty solid API, and it's got some nice QoL functions like rect collision checking and drawing gradients.

[sand frost]

Matrices? 👀

[devout vault]

Yes 😔

[cinder karma]

Matrices!

[safe dragon]

1 2
3 4

[cinder karma]

Equal chances this is for stardew or for some other gsme project

[rain apex]

Smh not the identity matrix

[dusty pollen]

you're correct, that is in fact not the identity matrix /lh

[safe dragon]

1 0
0 1

just for y'all

[cinder karma]

No

[pliant snow]

bigger

[safe dragon]

we all know there's only 2 dimensions

[cinder karma]

No

[main coral]

AH my home

the programming channel

[safe dragon]

welcome home

[devout vault]

jk i missed something it was actually almost completely working

[cinder karma]

For the love of fucking God, how is it this hard to figure out thr save and restore functionality

This is the third separate attempt that has failed in dumb ways

Including

1. Simulator now believes it is on opensuse.
2. I restarted...half the simulator
3. Simulator ignores command to restart

[devout vault]

(oh yeah, I lied by the way)

[safe dragon]

but did you know it was a lie when you said that

[pliant snow]

Is it worth my time to try out helix...

[safe dragon]

I've been trying it out at work

it's definitely more convenient than having to set up and maintain a neovim config

but it also doesn't really offer anything neovim doesn't

so far I'd say things have kinda just worked. Syntax highlighting breaks sometimes for specific sections in my code though idk why

apparently this is a known issue for svelte with an open PR to switch to the nvim-treesitter implementation of svelte

I shall wait patiently

[pliant snow]

Yeah, it's nice to have everything out of the box, but we'll see if I really feel its worth switching

[pine pagoda]

how does one who already has a CS degree+software experience learn game development?

[sand frost]

Probably by jumping into it

There’s some game engines but they have pros and cons

[dusty pollen]

pretty much the same way as someone who doesn't but with a slight head start I guess

[cyan shadow]

Grab a game engine (godot, maybe) and pop off

I mean
I don't have a cs background but I imagine it's like iro said, it's the same as if you didn't have that background but you actually know how to program so you have a better starting point

[pine pagoda]

ah you see I’m lacking in knowledge on game engines

I’m on it though

[sonic mirage]

I'd probably start by just trying to recreate a simple game like Pong, then go from there

Maybe follow a tutorial, but then be sure to try something where you figure things out yourself, since personally I learn things better that way than from tutorials

[dusty pollen]

I don't like most of the current game engines so I would probably pull a CA and try using something arcane and low level, but I also know that's not the right answer

[crystal wren]

It's the more fun answer, though!

[worn remnant]

don't talk to me or my child SDL ever again /lh

[cyan shadow]

Or pico 8
Heard it's fairly approachable?

[sonic mirage]

I'm not familiar with any of them besides maybe a little incidental Unity from watching GMTK videos

"recreate pong" has Google results in a Unity, Godot, Scratch, etc.

[crystal wren]

I just know that if we mentioned PICO-8 enough, we'll summon Aquo.

[pine pagoda]

thank you folks 🙂 what is sdv made on, anyways?

[cinder karma]

Monogame

[pine pagoda]

fascinating

alright I guess I’m gonna go read about all this

[frosty echo]

XNA originally, I think?

[pliant snow]

https://tenor.com/cJqrwQ9U71Z.gif

Pico-8 you say

[devout vault]

It can be depending on the game!

(I like Godot but find it too overwhelming, despite understanding it much better than unity and definitely unreal. Hence why I really only use it if I need 3D)

[marble jewel]

@cinder karma “Knitting is like programming but with yarn” https://youtu.be/iTLvD6-X8WQ?si=MNkkwHl8GxgciQRL

[devout vault]

Nice try, if atra couldn't induct me into the knitting cult then neither can you

(Yes I know you mainly were showing atra)

[marble jewel]

C# to Knitting, when? @devout vault

[devout vault]

When atra makes it I guess

[cinder karma]

That doesnt even make sense smh

[lethal walrus]

knit the c# code in a piece

and then ocr it back

or knit a qr code of the binary

[marble jewel]

I guess if Knitting is programming, then technically it would be C# to Yarn.

I mean, if casey can get C# to Java working, I can only imagine that Yarn is next.

[devout vault]

Oh boy, I could play the snake game made in assembly!
https://github.com/donno2048/snake

(56 byte exe (or I guess it's a .com not a .exe), for those who aren't clicking)

For reference

[lethal walrus]

oh its a small qr too

[devout vault]

The entire program

[lethal walrus]

wow

[sand frost]

surely the short answer is "friction makes the world go round" right??

(i did not watch the video)

[lethal walrus]

my baseline for snake qr was https://mattkc.com/etc/snakeqr/ so this is wow

[devout vault]

Yeah they have a comparison of other tiny snake games (including that one apparently) at the bottom of that github repo readme

Comparison in size

[lethal walrus]

mhm

[pliant snow]

I do legit like Pico-8 as a game dev learning experience. It's a very different way of making games than like Unity or Godot, but it's nice to be able to just have a single code/sprite/music editor altogether, and you can just draw to a screen and handle input and everything just works nicely

Speaking of liking things, I was looking at how much of my neovim config is handled by helix out of the box, and it's like just about all of it...

[safe dragon]

yeah other than the built in file treeview window I had in neovim I have pretty much all I wanted

I did set the autocomplete delay to 5ms instead of 250ms cause I thought it was just lagging

and turned on line diagnostics

my config is like 8 lines

[pliant snow]

The only things I have as a Neovim plugin that Helix doesn't have are those vertical lines showing where tabs are located, and oil.nvim

[safe dragon]

https://docs.helix-editor.com/editor.html#editorindent-guides-section

indent-guides should be what you want

[pliant snow]

ohhh shit

okay just one thing

[safe dragon]

oil.nvim is a little more difficult to just suddenly replace...

[pliant snow]

Yeahh, I saw there was a request for it

my helix config is now a whopping 16 lines

[safe dragon]

I'll be happy with any real way to manage files within the editor itself instead of needing to call shell scripts cause I'm on windows and I do not know how to powershell

[pliant snow]

Oh, like renaming files without leaving?

[safe dragon]

stuff like that

making new files at a specific location, moving files

[pliant snow]

I typically don't do too much of that from within neovim, I've been burned with deleting files that are open in buffers and it getting confused and such

[safe dragon]

I do run into little bugs sometimes

but it's been good

[pliant snow]

I've been using yazi for some of that navigation management stuff lately

[safe dragon]

oh damn that's available on windows

I looked at ranger since I've used that before but that one isn't

I tried lf but it just feels like worse ranger

[pliant snow]

I used ranger and nnn in the past

yazi is the only one I've really started to use regularly

[devout vault]

Finally got around to setting up all my various idea txt files into an obsidian vault + git repo

Now I can not have a bajillion notepad windows open

And also edit on my phone

[lethal walrus]

I am sorry for what will happen to your commit activity graph

[pliant snow]

Pushing every single save to a remote git server does seem a bit like overkill tho

[devout vault]

I have it set up to push an hour after files are no longer being edited

Until I saw that option I was gonna have it do every 24 hours

[devout vault]

...oh no

Do I finally need to exclude private repos from the graph

[lethal walrus]

You can do that?

[devout vault]

I believe so. I think it’s all or nothing, though

[safe dragon]

it took a lot of time but I think I have everything installed and configured on windows where I no longer need vscode for shit

other than query the database I suppose

[dusty pollen]

is vscodium also AI-afflicted?

[safe dragon]

no idea

I just wanted to use helix there was no AI related motivation

I still use visual studio. That's definitely more difficult to replace

half the patch notes each update are copilot things

I could use rider but that's not helping much. It'd just be Jetbrains AI instead

[dusty pollen]

it's so hard to tell what's AI and what isn't, too

I think the useless code completion is probably ai?

[safe dragon]

strictly speaking intellisense has been AI for much longer than it's been hip

stuff like putting your most likely autocompletion at the top of the suggestions based on context

that one is really good

[dusty pollen]

well ig code autocompletion as a concept is inherently ai even without ml, and I'm sure that like you said it probably used ml way before the buzzword

[safe dragon]

ironically I used to use copilot but stopped even though copilot has only improved since then

[steel kraken]

intellicode was somewhat useful at times, though it was only very powerful when I was doing dumb repetitive things that I shouldn't have needed to do in a better codebase

[cyan shadow]

Don't think so

[sand frost]

This is essentially why my dad was into ML before ML was cool (he works on NLP kind of stuff)

[dusty pollen]

I was in uni right between the two recent ml waves (chatgpt started exploding while I was at uni but after I took my ml and ai courses) so there were definitely people who were there because of the general ml hype wave in the 2010s but I was more interested in things like that too

[steel kraken]

I liked AI back when it was cool statistics with AI/ML, now that everything is just LLM hallucinations its boring

[safe dragon]

now it's lame statistics

[dusty pollen]

whoever decided that the way to improve ai is by training it on all of reddit should be studied

[steel kraken]

you know what they say, theres no such thing as bad PR Data

all data is good data if its in enough volumes

[dusty pollen]

but what if it’s good at making your ai talk like reddit

[steel kraken]

just say its a hallucination and then investors dont care and you can raise more money

[weak junco]

Zed editor may market itself heavily for its AI capabilities, but it's also just a really solid editor outside of that. Highly recommend if you're on Linux or Mac. Windows builds exist only unofficially and there's issues.
Best things about Zed are the instant startup, automatic LSP downloading and GPU rendering.

I do use Zed on windows for stardew modding but omnisharp craps itself if i have more than one project open at the same time

[steel kraken]

I'm good with vscode (and VS2022 for C#)

[safe dragon]

zed didn't really offer anything for me that I cared about

it's nice if you just want vscode but not vscode

I'm glad the editor space isn't stagnant tbh

though nothing anyone could ever do would make emacs users change editor

[crystal wren]

Really? That does make me want to try it. The assumption it didn't have much to offer bar AI had put me off for a long time.

[grave meteor]

acc

best editior for C++?

[rain apex]

Not vsc cus that piece of shit never includes anything correctly unless i manually put it in

[grave meteor]

It was the only one i got rec but I dont love it unless its the best out of my options

[marble jewel]

I know VSCode is kind of "the one to beat" in terms of basic but capable code editors, but I don't really get excited for any editor that markets itself as a VSCode alternative. Before VSCode I used Sublime Text, and before that Notepad++. I feel like those kind of just were their own things. Sublime Text wasn't trying to be a better Notepad++ and VSCode wasn't trying to be a better Sublime Text.

Atom is the first editor that comes to mind that came out as a "better than VSCode" editor

[rain apex]

I am stuck with it for remote ssh reasons

It's usable and that's about it

In general I think vsc is like just good enough to be an almost ide and that works for me 99% of the time

[marble jewel]

Out of everything, neovim is the editor that is taking over a lot of what I used VSCode for, and that's mostly because I've been living in the command line more lately

[grave meteor]

for JSONs its ideal for me

I just opted to code data structures from scratch and prof said best to use is C++

[rain apex]

Yeah it has the best json lsp I've used

[grave meteor]

Im a math person so ig well see how it ends up

[pliant snow]

Despite Atom coming out first

[rain apex]

Use C instead

So you dont get confused by the ++ nonsense

As long as you can figure out the makefile literally anything is fine

[grave meteor]

I was told C++ is best

so im prob gonna stick with it

if I care to swap ill swap but its nice to know I have options

[rain apex]

And I am a random person in a programming enthusiast chat with a different opinion

The reasoning is that C++ itself actually provides many data structures for you, if the goal is to do stuff like "roll my own rbtree" then I'd just stick with C

[grave meteor]

im kinda annoying in the fact i will do shit I feel like doing until I fail or succeed with it and my heart is set on C++ but I appriciate the advice

im just annoying af

[rain apex]

C++ is a superset of C

[marble jewel]

I guess maybe both came out while Notepad++ was still the defintive choice at the time. Or at least that's how it seemed like to me.

[grave meteor]

I used to code in notepad

I had the option to use literally anything else

[pliant snow]

The Atom project created Electron

We all have Atom to thank* for this very discord UI

[marble jewel]

Thank you Atom, you've made Desktop applications so much better. Things were trending towards optimization and efficient use of hardware, but you changed that!

[sand frost]

I enjoy sublime

[marble jewel]

Atom be like - Moore's Law says that efficiency is not a problem (tomorrow)

[pliant snow]

if you think Electron runs badly now, I remember Atom being basically unusable

I'd never seen a text editor take minutes to start up

[marble jewel]

You know the only thing that can improve code editors nowadays is if you had to use them on a 6" touchscreen. That would be an editor for the modern day /s

Why code with all of your fingers on tactile keyboard when you can just use your thumbs?

[worn remnant]

(sees a chu ragging on C++)
"there are only two things wrong with C++. the initial concept, and the execution."

[marble jewel]

If you can get past every single thing that's wrong with it, it isn't so bad

[grave meteor]

guys I dont even know how to make a project my skills are not here

[rain apex]

Do u know what a makefile is

[pliant snow]

its when you make a file

[grave meteor]

ill figure it out eventually

doing heaps first so not crazy

[worn remnant]

make my beloved (not... really? but every other build system i've ever seen is wildly overengineered for the type of projects i make)

[rain apex]

Gnu make > cmake

[worn remnant]

when i see a CMakeLists.txt in a project with like four source/header files i cry a little

[grave meteor]

am I in hell?

wow i hate new coding languages

[safe dragon]

hater

oh you're using C++ that's the polar opposite of a new language

that's from before people realized having good tooling is desirable

[marble jewel]

I heard there's this new trendy language called Fortran /s

[steel kraken]

To be fair atom/electron is in many ways why there's still cross platform desktop applications. And html/CSS has very much won the UI war, everything else sucks or is trying to emulate it

[safe dragon]

or it's specialized like imgui style uis

those basically dominate debug guis

[grave meteor]

ive never used C++ prof told me best to build datastructures in C++ so here I am

[safe dragon]

good practice

[grave meteor]

yippie I hjave a seperate class that runs through main

and it iterates through a list

im gtting places

[cinder karma]

(Moore's law is dead)

[devout vault]

Are they the ones I have to blame for the state of AAA games

(at least re:optimization)

For C++ I've been using clion

[marble jewel]

I mean, why optimize when you can just throw more GBs at the problem?

[devout vault]

Ah yes, I love throwing more GBs at my old console homebrew apps

[grave meteor]

i ended opting for clion

[fleet wren]

I remember managing my collection of PS2 memory cards and memorizing exactly which one has the save data for which game

back in the days 8MB is a luxury

[devout vault]

Yeah I saw this new gecko code on the KAR server and I was like "wow, a whole extra MB of RAM!"

(It's not as funny if you say "increased available RAM by 11%")

[grave meteor]

guys

I have made a build heap function via vectors (idk why iused vectors)

[safe dragon]

honestly sometimes I'm just confused how tf some things are using so much memory

though these days I'm just confused how tf websites often have such huge network request payloads

[dusty pollen]

it’s because so many people know so little about optimisation that they think it’s okay to send a million requests of the same high res image back and forth or something

[safe dragon]

I'm building a web application that in many ways resembles spreadsheets and when you load a page it loads in literally all records, no paging. This can at times be genuinely like 20,000 records of data and then I see the network payload and it's like 1mb

I'm by all means doing something generally considered a terrible idea

and still

I've tested the application using simulated 3G data and it's still fine

I guess images are just really large

comparatively

[grave meteor]

Same reason people fucking LOVE recursion

[supple ether]

I suspect it's due to abstractions which reduce development time at the cost of client resources, which is a great deal for corps because the only have to pay for one of those things

[safe dragon]

abstractions over abstractions over abstractions

[cinder karma]

Developers are more expensive than RAM

Look at this beautiful thing from samsung

[safe dragon]

first you use React to abstract away what you're actually doing in the browser. Then you get a massive library that abstracts over React for your usecase and then that has issues so your team builds its own abstractions over this library to work around its problems

[safe dragon]

xray of thin wafer snacks

[grave meteor]

tbh if its based on what my school puts out they just lit dont know what they are doing

I aint ever seen a soul fail any CS class at my school

[devout vault]

After three full days I have returned victorious from the fight against matrices. Huzzah. (I’m tired 😛 )

I’ll show off what I’d did after I do something cool with it tomorrow.

[lethal walrus]

i wonder if the github graph is based off commits piushed or commits made - if i just used a random email to commit would it not ruin my graph

[cinder karma]

Ruin

As if a github activity tracker that looks like bath tile is bad

Smh

Mine looks like bath tile if the bathroom theme was goth

[lethal walrus]

it looks like im boosting it

[dusty pollen]

it would have to be commits pushed authored by you, right? it wouldn’t make sense otherwise

[lethal walrus]

i guess?

[cinder karma]

Smh just create an entire new github account

(I get to jest because my github is silent.)

[lethal walrus]

i already have.. four?

dont tell github that theyre all free accounts

[devout vault]

I can now close my Matrix Suffering™ window

[pliant snow]

If you have an extension to tell you how many tabs you have open, I think you might have too many tabs open

[devout vault]

I mean to be fair I got that extension back when I at least 500

Out of morbid curiosity

You can also see your total tab count

And apparently I forgot to close the extra window on my work virtual desktop once I was finished

So take 52 tabs off of that

[lethal walrus]

• 2 pinned, not bad

[devout vault]

Yeah, another 35 are from my window of "things I was gonna watch that day but got distracted and never did and never went back to them"

Now that I've cleaned that up

Final count

And four of those are pinned tabs that aren't going anywhere. 😛 (Two email accounts, and two for work stuff)

Does anyone know why visual visutal studio would just... refuse to expand a variable in the debugger

In the locals list I just get "..." for the children, and hovering over it in the source code won't let the drop down expand at all

Is it a hot reloading problem

[devout vault]

The matrices came back with reinforcements.

Anyways, I have learned enough and searched enough to document my confusion

(Tl;dr if I was using openvr directly this would've been much less painful 🙃 )

(Also the multiplication order is irrelevant for me because I'm doing the multiplication with monogame matrices)

[foggy abyss]

Will it be upgraded to .NET 8 or .NET 10 in the next version?

[rain apex]

what is it

[foggy abyss]

The game and smapi

[rain apex]

ah you are in wrong place and want either https://discord.com/channels/137344473976799233/156109690059751424 or https://discord.com/channels/137344473976799233/1387907186713301072

atm the answer is no afaik

[foggy abyss]

ok

[lucid sundial]

My laptop, Arch + XFCE + Chicago95, looks like Windows 95

[devout vault]

(This was wrong by the way, I completely misunderstood what the article was saying. So yeah, I just gotta transpose the matrices before using them.)

[devout vault]

(I am so tired of this 😛 )

[dusty pollen]

if you ever want other people to scream at matrices with you and maybe even occasionally have an answer for them you could always ask here

[devout vault]

But that'll give away what I'm working on! (I mean y'all might have guesses, but it'd confirm it)

[cinder karma]

But it'll be fun!

In this house we love matrices

[devout vault]

Hey, you already know what I'm working on 😂

[cinder karma]

I'm pretending I don't know!

The French actually know these words?

[devout vault]

Extra hours of hobbies, clearly

[cinder karma]

It's very cool 💞

[dusty pollen]

well now I'm hurt and heartbroken, casey /j

[devout vault]

How about if I send you a picture 60 seconds before I show anyone else

(Once it's ready)

[dusty pollen]

okay I'm special again

[devout vault]

My current dilemma is camera woes

position = (0, 0, 0)
world = identity matrix
view = (-90 degree X rotation matrix) * (-10 units Y translation matrix)
projection = 90 degree FOV perspective matrix (near: 0.1f, far: 256)

multipliedLikeLibraryDoesIt = p * world * view * projection
multipliedTheOtherWay = p * projection * view * world

Why is multipliedTheOtherWay the one that outputs a correct value.

These matrices are all constructed with the library functions for the corresponding thing they describe. So why doesn't multiplying it in the order the library does when rendering produce correct results. (To be clear, the library isn't showing anything on screen either.) (Swapping the multiplication order of the view matrix doesn't work either, by the way)

Shouldn't what the library be doing be correct. It's actively maintained, and latest version has code exactly the same

(ignore that p is multiplied before for multipliedTheOtherWay - it's actually a transform function taking in a vector and a matrix, not operator * )

[dusty pollen]

so you're basically replicating the library's code and it isn't working the same way?

[devout vault]

Yep

[dusty pollen]

my initial very blind guess is that they're doing something strange where M * N actually ends up evaluating as NM rather than MN but that would be very weird

[devout vault]

Well

It is

But it's not correct

Like multipliedLikeLibraryDoesIt is consistent with nothing showing up

But... there's no way the library is doing it wrong

[dusty pollen]

which library is this?

[devout vault]

MonoGame 😂

(It's done in EffectHelpers.SetWorldViewProjAndFog, which is used by AlphaTestEffect that I'm using)

It's working fine with VR enabled, but that uses different camera code. (Like, rotation and translation are multiplied differently, which I don't think is correct technically, but works for some reason)

Yeah and the samples are doing the same order

[dusty pollen]

the question marks in all the comments in alphateteffect don't inspire confidence

[devout vault]

I did not notice those

[devout vault]

But surely the samples work

[dusty pollen]

...how surely is surely

[devout vault]

Well I mean monogame is actively maintained

[dusty pollen]

how commonly used are these features though

[devout vault]

3d? I'm fairly certain it gets a decent amount of use

Probably not as much as 2d, but still

I could just use a custom Effect and skip all these problems

But I'd like to fix it properly so I don't run into more problems later

[dusty pollen]

I could only find one reference online directly to the SetWorldViewProgAndFog method and it's in a pretty questionable tutorial but I assume the effects are more popular

[devout vault]

(That has happened while figuring these matrices out... a lot...)

[devout vault]

Well that function isn't public, so fair

[dusty pollen]

is there a way to sanity test that it's actually wrong btw

[devout vault]

The code I posted isn't touching rendering at all. It's just vector and matrix math

If I understand correctly it's a camera at Y=10 looking down

[dusty pollen]

oh yeah I just mean like, have you tested it with sample models instead of your models etc

[devout vault]

But flipping the sign of the Y coordinate and and rotation separately or together doesn't fix it

[devout vault]

You mean not the math I did, but actual rendering?

(Since the math is literally just transforming the origin point)

[dusty pollen]

yeah

just in case it's a case of losing track of a direction etc

[devout vault]

I guess I haven't, but I'm only rendering a quad facing up.

Culling is off for now, so don't have to worry about CW/CCW

[dusty pollen]

the question is could it accidentally be in the wrong place or something ig

[devout vault]

Alas, I already checked that.

Behold, triangles one and two

...ack, that spoils what I was working on

Well most of you had probably guessed anyways

[dusty pollen]

maybe try moving the quad to each of the 8 3d quadrants and seeing if it's visible in the original library code for one of them?

[devout vault]

Hmm. When I was doing vr stuff I did have a quad showing in each +/- of each axis for testing

[dusty pollen]

and further than |(10,10,10)| away

[devout vault]

Guess I'll turn that debug render method back on

[dusty pollen]

(because of the y translation)

[devout vault]

"why isn't it showing up"
(I rendered them before the screen was cleared)