programmers-off-topic

[worn remnant]

good luck! you have one(1) general-purpose register and it's 16 bits wide (sometimes)

[cinder karma]

Casey you need to make a rust target for it

[devout vault]

...it's that bad???

[worn remnant]

oh and it runs at something like 3 MHz

[devout vault]

That will be covered by https://github.com/FractalFir/rustc_codegen_clr

[pliant snow]

Doesn't cc65 compile to SNES?

[cinder karma]

Also you divide by writing something to a register and then waiting three clk cycles or smth

[worn remnant]

multiply, too! and i think it might be 6 (mult) and 8 (div) but i forget, it's been a while

[pliant snow]

did it really have a mult instruction?

how wasteful

[worn remnant]

no, memory-mapped registers. i just remember the number of cycles you have to wait differs so i was labeling them

[cinder karma]

SNES is fascinating

I would love to write some assembly for it, it's so weird

God, I'm weird

[worn remnant]

a beautiful, insane architecture

[cinder karma]

Speaking of weird, stairmaster time

[worn remnant]

(i have written some assembly for it. it's fun but it does also suck)

[cinder karma]

(Have you ever played an snes game, atra? Have you ever even seen an snes in person? No. Shut up. )

[worn remnant]

you gotta be real careful with the cpu flags because instructions are variable width and if your registers are the wrong size your code will explode

[pliant snow]

I apparently need to read up on the snes architecture

variable width instructions?

ohhh it's a 16-bit extension to the 6502

[worn remnant]

i mentioned this before but if you are interested in the snes architecture, i gently recommend doing GBA dev instead. it does tile graphics like the snes and is set up in sort of the same way overall but you get a reasonably modern processor and C and it's just... nicer

[pliant snow]

lol rip

[devout vault]

Looking through SNES and NES games I just realized I had the two backward in my mind as far as release order. Not sure how that happened

[cinder karma]

But what if I want to play with insane assembly

I'm not even like interested in ever making a video game

[devout vault]

Sounds like me when I wanted to make tetris in MIPS after the semester I had a class focused on it 😛

[pliant snow]

why use the GBA C compiler when you could use the GBA Nim compiler

[worn remnant]

you can also plug mgba into gdb and get a real goddamn debugger in there for your stuff but i haven't set that up yet because i'm a slacker 😎

[devout vault]

(Never happened, couldn't find an emulator with all the features I needed (there were like two but each of them had some the other didn't), and didn't want to write my own)

If I were to do a game for an old console I'd probably choose gamecube I think (most nostalgia), or maybe ds (or 3ds even)

I experimented with making a homebrew game in dolphin at one point

I'm not sure how simple it is to actually run custom stuff on a real gamecube though

And I don't have one anymore

[pliant snow]

I in fact have a modded gamecube which can load stuff off an SD card

[devout vault]

...I did not know gamecube had one of these types of controllers

[worn remnant]

hell yeah the keyboard thing!

[pliant snow]

you essentially have to A. hardware mod it B. have a memory card <-> SD card adapter, then use a game exploit to load software C. Use a jailbroken Wii

[pliant snow]

that was for phantasy star online iirc

[worn remnant]

thinking about The Typing of the Dead on the Dreamcast

[devout vault]

Yeah that's what the page I got it from said

I knew these existed but I thought it was just for like xbox and stuff

[pliant snow]

I think you could use it in like animal crossing too or something

...i should get one

im sure theyre stupid expensive tho

[devout vault]

I just had a dumb idea but hear me out:
Make a physical accessory like the game boy player, but instead it lets you connect with DSs (similar to the game boy advance cable)

[pliant snow]

the DS is a generation later sadly

[devout vault]

I mean if I'm doing custom hardware why would that stop me

They fit in the same "nostalgia slot" for me

[rancid atlas]

How exactly do I add multiple fish with unique conditions to the same area in Data/locations?

[devout vault]

Modding questions go in #making-mods-general

[devout vault]

Sad, if you had a disc burner would that be enough due to some type of code signing?

[cinder karma]

We just sprout off dumb shit here

[devout vault]

I somehow doubt action replay got code signed by nintendo though...

[cinder karma]

The dumber the better

Which is why I'm allowed here

[rancid atlas]

I already asked there. No one answered.

[pliant snow]

I think so, I know people have made homebrew discs which contain the exploits needed to allow from booting from SD/a second disc. The hard part instead is finding mini-DVDs and a burner these days lol

[devout vault]

Doesn't mean you can ask in channels where it is off topic.

And like over half the regular people here don't even mod (these days or ever in some cases)

You can ask again there when more people are around there

[sand frost]

this looks almost like one of those fancy keyboards people who are really into keyboards like

[rancid atlas]

Just use a Wii with Nintendon't instead.

[devout vault]

The whole point is I want to do it for the gamecube though

[pliant snow]

Yeah, that's the 3rd option and by far the easiest

[devout vault]

Also, can't hook up my custom hardware accessory for the gamecube to a wii

[pliant snow]

For gamecube then, hardware modding

unless you want to be swapping cracked discs in and out each time

[devout vault]

(Also would probably need a dolphin fork to be fair)

But the whole point of this hardware accessory is to connect with DSs, so I'd need a fork of some DS emulator too

I kinda want to do this now...

But I'd need to get a bunch of hardware (gamecube itself, controllers, whatever is needed to run custom things, etc.)

[pliant snow]

What do you envision this hardware accessory to look like

[rancid atlas]

You're better off plugging it into one of the memory card slots of a backwards-compatible Wii for testing. For the DS portion, use a real DS and a flashcart.

[devout vault]

Probably just a slab underneath like the gameboy player

[devout vault]

If I were doing this for ease of development then I would just do a PC game 😛

[rancid atlas]

GameBoy Player isn't compatible with the Wii.

[devout vault]

That is my entire point

I'm specifically talking about the gamecube

[rancid atlas]

So you want to lock Wii players out of it?

[devout vault]

I don't think anyone making something for a retro console cares too much about player count

[rancid atlas]

Fair point.

[pliant snow]

really you need to mandate that players have a touch screen, so that the DS functionality isnt lost

[rancid atlas]

Fun fact: Something like that was actually planned for the Wii but was scrapped because the DS had two screens while the Wii only had one.

[pliant snow]

A small setback

[devout vault]

And then it was brought back via the Wii U

[rancid atlas]

And dropped again with the Switch.

[pliant snow]

Time to bring it back for the Switch 2

[devout vault]

I know the Wii U was not popular (especially compared to the Wii) but I loved the gamepad.

Like, sure, you can play a game while someone else is doing stuff on the tv, which is nice (household with two siblings). But I really liked the games that used both. Like, Wind Waker HD was wonderful being able to swap items without going to the pause menu

[pliant snow]

speaking of which, I need to clean my gamepad, the joysticks have like... oxidized or something

[devout vault]

That doesn't sound good

[pliant snow]

im not sure how to fix it tbh

its yellow and kinda gross

[devout vault]

I wonder if it's as simple as a joystick replacement like you could probably find on ifixit or something

[pliant snow]

I suppose that's an option. I tried cleaning them with isopropyl alcohol, but it wouldnt come off

I should say, I have created what I consider to be the Ultimate Gamecube

[devout vault]

Is it just different colored?

Or like, new weird stuff like when batteries go bad

[devout vault]

Oh?

[pliant snow]

It's very yellow and like... vaguely sticky to the touch. It's not ideal

[devout vault]

I'd ignore it if not for the sticky part

[pliant snow]

yeah, yellow I can live with

[pliant snow]

I'm glad you asked https://aquova.net/blog/2025/ultimate-gamecube/

[devout vault]

Pretty sure some of our old wavebird control sticks were getting slightly yellow last time we used them

[devout vault]

You say this like you didn't intentionally bait someone asking 😂

(Also didn't know you had a site, not that I'm surprised)

[pliant snow]

I would never bait people to read my stupid posts, again

[devout vault]

It's not "again" for me, and I'm very interested so it's still appreciated 😛

Typo(?) spotted!

My main exposure to the system wasn't until I got a shiny new Nintendo Wii, which was backwards compatible with the Wii
I mean, I suppose it's good for a console to be backwards compatible with itself, but I assume that's not what you meant

[pliant snow]

yeah i just spotted it too dammit

[devout vault]

You lose points for not mentioning KAR

Or even wind waker

(I'm three paragraphs in but did Ctrl+F)

[pliant snow]

I've never been a big fan of Wind Waker, but I'm a little surprised I didn't sneak KAR in

[devout vault]

That's sacrilege but I'll forgive you since you're acknowledging KAR now at least

[pliant snow]

god reading this again I'm making all sorts of edits lol

[devout vault]

Somehow skies of arcadia is one I've never heard of

Not sure I had heard of resident evil back then either but like, it was M, no way my parents would've gotten that

[pliant snow]

skies of arcadia is rad

shit a second typo

[cinder karma]

Arcadia is awesome hiking in Maine

[pliant snow]

3rd typo, did i fucking read this thing

[rain apex]

wow aquova influencer blog

[pliant snow]

use my checkcode to get 10% more governor XP with your next purchase

[rancid atlas]

Why were people willing to help me when I first arrived but several hours later it felt like a ghost town?

[pliant snow]

People are probably just busy

[devout vault]

Yeah, even this channel gets less active around this time

[rain apex]

i dont want to help you cus you are being rude

[devout vault]

Timezones may be a thing but I imagine most people are still american

[devout vault]

Apparently there was an sd card launcher with custom disc (instead of game exploit) for the gamecube. Made by the AR people of course

Well, actually not sure if it's made by them

It's on the codejunkies store and says it includes an AR disc, so "maybe"

...what the heck? (gamecube wikipedia page)

[rain apex]

SuperMonkeyBall mention

[devout vault]

Whew the GC had so little RAM

[tranquil grove]

seems like that's the kind of surgery where you need to work with a long tool through a narrow piercing, so ig it helps with spatial awareness

(SMB in particular because "move by tilting the world" requires more attention than just walking around )

[devout vault]

You know, it might be better to stick with the 3ds for this idea since it also supports download play as well, and custom firmware exists without hardware hacks

[cinder karma]

I hear from John Oliver that playing video games prepares you for a career as air traffic control

[devout vault]

...or did that get patched in that final 3ds update?

[devout vault]

I saw that video too!

You might've been the one to link it actually

But I know I'm subscribed to them on YT

[tranquil grove]

was that recent? I'm behind by like 2 months, but kept up for a while

[devout vault]

Well since the 3ds can run ds stuff maybe the difference doesn't matter much

[devout vault]

At least a year old

I don't keep up with it these days 😛

[cinder karma]

Do you want a career as an air traffic controller

Tbh if I went back in time and didn't have terrible vision it might be fun

I don't know

[devout vault]

Oh

I assumed Esca was asking about the 3ds patch

Not the video

[tranquil grove]

oh, yeah no, I meant the video

[devout vault]

Air traffic control video was a little over a week ago

[tranquil grove]

I also haven't kept up with nintendo handheld crimes, but apparently version doesn't matter & you don't even need a game with vulnerabilities anymore
(as was the style back when I last heard about it)

[devout vault]

Is it just me or does devkitpro not list anywhere all the different platforms and stuff they have

(Besides going through github repo list manually)

(Like I know they support several different platforms, and that was back during the wii days)

[devout vault]

I thought there was some patch for the exploit in the final update that closed the eshop but I could be misremembering

[tranquil grove]

there's apparently still custom OS stuff that Just Works, one of two depending on which device you have

[devout vault]

I know I had custom firmware on my 3ds but it hasn't been turned on in years

gets hit with an unexpected blast of nostalgia

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Amazing_Island

[tranquil grove]

same, I did it pretty early on but haven't used consoles much since

haven't seen that before & somehow I mistook it for chip's challenge

ig it's close enough

[devout vault]

gets hit with another (why is it unexpected when I'm literally browsing a list of gamecube games that use a specific accessory)

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pokémon_Channel

That's an interesting way of patching games on platforms with no network access

(Same patch with pokemon colosseum an xd)

Apparently Mario Kart Double Dash supported 8 players via the mythical lan functionality (which I've only ever seen as a button in KAR which had no purpose for me)

(KAR was still limited to four people though)

[worn remnant]

the best pokemon berry glitch is pomeg in emerald. i don't consider it (on its own) a glitch because i'm particular, but combined with several other oversights resulting from having an active mon with 0 hp, you can stomp all over box memory and spawn any pokemon you want (this part is deffo a glitch) and it is truly wild how it all works

[devout vault]

After several train of thought tangents I finally read through this.

Wow, the flippydrive is kinda blowing my mind with it being solderless and the particular installation method they went with to accomplish that

[lethal walrus]

Yep, there's a browser exploit

[crystal wren]

Now that's a real trial by fire.

[grave meteor]

I bought a DS to try pokemon

kinda late to the convo but eh

[dusty pollen]

part of me really hopes that that server has nothing to do with framework

because honestly that would be funnier

[crystal wren]

That would be hilarious, but that is the official Framework Discord!

[pliant snow]

On a Mac, if you put a folder in your doc, you can click on it and it will pop up everything inside it. I really wish there was something like that for KDE plasma, but I haven't found anything

[ivory shadow]

This is just cruel, lol

[devout vault]

I mean seeing as it is on the official discord, it might work? Since if people are there they are probably at least interested

[dusty pollen]

are we having an influx of spam bots or something, this channel keeps getting marked as unread

[sonic mirage]

as of a few days ago we were, see #bulletin-board

[crystal wren]

4 since 4am!

[cursive sigil]

So that's what was happening, i was so confused

[dusty pollen]

I know, I was more wondering about today in this channel haha

surefire sign there was a spam bot is if this channel is marked as unread without new messages

[crystal wren]

And the fun fact is that if a channel gets lit up for it, it was caught by Bouncer and not Discord's AutoMod.

[cinder karma]

Yay bouncer

[worn remnant]

glad to know i'm not insane (for this reason specifically. do not @ me about the other reasons)

[dusty pollen]

we love bouncer

[cyan shadow]

THE BONCH

[cinder karma]

Good morning chat. My basil is looking well

[crystal wren]

I'm glad it's not... faulty.

https://tenor.com/xQPm.gif

@cyan shadow might get that?

[dusty pollen]

I'm offended, dh

[crystal wren]

You also probably would to be fair, yes!

[dusty pollen]

https://tenor.com/view/basil-fawlty-fawlty-towers-john-cleese-gif-10019319959649379673

[cinder karma]

What are you talking about

[crystal wren]

For Atra! Main character being Basil Fawlty, pronounced faulty.

[cinder karma]

Brit 💞

[cyan shadow]

Get out

[random bay]

Hey guys. I am a programmer with over 5 years experience. I have worked with Unity for more than 3 years and with Godot for more than 2 years.

[final trail]

[worn remnant]

👀 FAWLTY TOWERS MENTIONED

[crystal wren]

By way of pun, no less.

[safe dragon]

hi welcome

I have no experience with either

[random bay]

Isn't this about programming?

[pliant snow]

It is, but you'll find most people here have C# or web backgrounds iirc

[dusty pollen]

and one person with COBOL experience a while back

[rain apex]

I mean if u wanna talk about some programming things just do it

[ivory shadow]

This is also largely where the mod devs here who are also programmers migrate to talk about anything. #programmers-off-topic, as it were

[rain apex]

I usually find these things fascinating even if i never used the language or tooling personally

[dusty pollen]

basically this is really just "tech-nerd-yapping"

[rain apex]

For example im glad crumble told us all about blazor the other day

[dusty pollen]

can't even include the off topic with how often we end up on topic

speaking of tech nerd stuff

is anyone else tired of seeing AI, ML and large genAI confused for one another

[cyan shadow]

Yes

I know what prompted this and yes

[safe dragon]

I don't but yeah it's annoying

one that really got on my nerves was someone saying "not all AI are bad it's just the machine learning ones"

[dusty pollen]

oh goodie

[crystal wren]

https://tenor.com/bSmK0.gif

[dusty pollen]

even the term "genAI" annoys me because that used to mean something else (well, all AIs that generate something)

and now it's slapped on this one group of algorithms that deliberately don't have a good collective name because the companies benefit from them just being AI

[safe dragon]

😌

LLM is at least pretty specific but then you exclude the image generation ones

[dusty pollen]

and even for LLMs, they existed and exist outside of these ones (in the sense that they aren't always trained unethically and just let loose)

[safe dragon]

vibe terminology

[cursive sigil]

Yeah the problem is that once you restrain the training it doesn't end up as good

[safe dragon]

the llm is hungry

feed it more training data

[cursive sigil]

[dusty pollen]

yeah but I still think it's mean to group them in with these lot if they're genuinely trying

[safe dragon]

fun fact. When the GPT2 research paper was published I was actually super excited about it and thought it was really cool

GPT2 was just good enough to be fascinating but bad enough to have no practical use

then GPT3 and eventually ChatGPT happened

should've stayed at 2

[random bay]

I use c#

[safe dragon]

me too

have for I guess a decade now

[cinder karma]

I don't use c#

[wet tendon]

and 🚀 🔥 🦀 rust 🦀 🔥 🚀

[rain apex]

I understand the crab but what of the fire and rocket what do those mean

[fleet wren]

blazingly 🔥 fast 🚀

[rain apex]

Is it more 🔥 🚀 than just write assembly

[wet tendon]

blazing fast

[wet tendon]

yes rustc+llvm consistently writes better assembly than experts in most situations

[fleet wren]

compiler optimization is so good nowadays this is usually unironically yes

[rain apex]

My work is telling me to go learn rust (properly this time)

I'm trying to think of a weekend mini project to do

[cinder karma]

It means buy gamestop stock

I'll joking going vt 🚀

[cinder karma]

I asked chatgpt

It is suggested an operating system

[wet tendon]

dont get too into rust or youll hear a joke like "the provenance of my pointer is that i somehow got hold of it. why are you asking so many questions" and think is the funniest programming joke ever

(bad thing)

[rain apex]

People should let me have their pointers i agree

[cinder karma]

Smh

I thought that was an apple joke

[rain apex]

I been trying to make the computer give me real stack pointers it's not working out

[cinder karma]

Unsafe should be "trust me bro"

[wet tendon]

what does this mean

[rain apex]

I am make a profiling thing 4 work

[cinder karma]

Oooh

[rain apex]

Spying on ppl's pointers

[wet tendon]

ahh

the only profiling i ever do involves compiling with llvms profiler enabled n then just processing the dumped profiling data after-the-fact

[rain apex]

But y'know, in a safe and appsec approved way

[wet tendon]

performance is terrible but that's alright 😅

[rain apex]

Yeah i think they make us write this instead of buying actually srs bsns perf tool from team of srs bsns IT pros is cus our tool will be weaker

And less able to murder performance and leak state secrets

[wet tendon]

is there no compiler tooling you could use instead?

[rain apex]

It is for profiling running instances of things

Can't just change out to dev build

[cinder karma]

Fun

[rain apex]

Learn rust is not for this project tho

[safe dragon]

for profiling C# I vaguely know what I'm doing

for profiling Javascript I look at what the profiler tells me in confusion

"man what is it doing all this time why the delay"
profiler: idk man it was idling

[ivory shadow]

Modern JavaScript VMs are way too magical

Have been for a while

But it's fast magic so I can't mind too much

[wet tendon]

yea i mean compiler tooling for including a profiler in your code automatically, like what llvm can do

[grave meteor]

God I've been grappling with publishing a python package (idk why it was so hard for me)

[dusty pollen]

what's the package for?

[rain apex]

Don't think just ship

[grave meteor]

Complex plotting visualization and morphisms

Specifically of points not functions

[dusty pollen]

chu no

that's for npm

[grave meteor]

It's oddly complex I didn't realize I was publishing to the testing thing???

[safe dragon]

I even had an npm package at one point and I have no idea how that happened

I'm not a Javascript dev

I was messing around with a sudoku solver with a web interface I was building and wanted to make the solver its own library as clean separation but somehow that ended up with me publishing it to npm?

it was a long time ago

[cinder karma]

Peer pressure

[uncut seal]

Complex as in "imaginary numbers" or complex as in "hard"?

[grave meteor]

a+bi

[uncut seal]

Hey, I'm studying complex analysis, and I made a color function plotter last year!

Why did you need to make a specific package to plot points? Why not use a generic method that plots points in R²?

Like matplotlib

[grave meteor]

my prof wants it this way, he asked me to plot it in this specific way, to visualize more abstracted math

he asked me to plot specific functions and im building my github library there doesnt exist any other plotter to my knowlage that does this

[dusty pollen]

how did you implement the solver, btw?

my favourite fun fact from my logic tutor was that they once had a competition in the department to solve a sudoku the fastest and the winners (by far) were the team who just plugged it into a SAT solver

[dusty pollen]

I'm also confused about the same thing as Leroy, aren't you just plotting a list of (effectively) x and y coordinates?

[grave meteor]

You know complex coords act as vectors right?

Well naively

[dusty pollen]

I am aware, yes.

(would be a bit sad if I got my Maths & CS degree without knowing that )

[grave meteor]

to visualize and actively use the level of connection from applied to abstract he wanted me to create custom plotting of imaginary to complex in the same ways as Argand Diagrams more of less

I did my degree mostly in pure math

the point is to maintain abstractness with the most "real life" accuracy as possible

[dusty pollen]

yeah, maths and CS only does pure maths, not applied

[grave meteor]

most of my degree was in proofs haha, I just kinda taught myself to code

[dusty pollen]

...same?

I really don't know what hair you're trying to split here haha

but that being said, Argand diagrams just map complex numbers onto the R² space like Leroy said. Idk what you mean by "imaginary to complex" in this context considering complex numbers are just imaginary + real, but a regular plotter with a single function taking 'a+bi' and mapping it to (a,b) sounds like it would do at least the basic stuff

[grave meteor]

I dont think you understand the scope of the coding software maybe I just cant explain it super well haha

Im a math person not a CS one

[dusty pollen]

also sympi does symbolic analysis if you want to take in equations that way

[grave meteor]

im just proud of what I made and doing what im asked

[dusty pollen]

you haven't really explained it at all, that's why we're asking, you just said you wanted to plot complex numbers?

[dusty pollen]

ah, fair enough, it sounded like you were asking for help

[grave meteor]

nope I can do it myseldf

[dusty pollen]

congrats!

[grave meteor]

yeah lmfao dont really need a congrats for that

I just enjoy high level pure math and like to code true to that

rather then shortcuts plus I need to perform a lot of operations on them

[uncut seal]

I would be quite interested in seeing what you made if you're ok with sharing it

[grave meteor]

I really dont want to get judged if the code ius bad lmfao

[regal ingot]

(We're already judging you because you're making it sound like making a 2d plot is somehow complicated because it's r,i instead of x,y. Maybe there's a reason things are more complicated, but you haven't said anything that explains why, so 🤷‍♂️ )

[grave meteor]

thanks, thats really kind

[cinder karma]

Anyways

[grave meteor]

anywho so how do u invert a circle vector again?

since its just 2d plotting I couldnt find any sources on it

since yall seem to know a lot, I would love the opportunity to learn more

[uncut seal]

Tbh I'm mostly interested in the functions you talked about, I've been spending the last few weeks wrapping my head around elliptic functions/integrals, so looking at other stuff would be nice

What do you mean by "circle vector"?

[grave meteor]

honestly it would just be great for you to explain how the complex function that makes up a circle in that plane would be translated to 2d Coordinates

[dusty pollen]

to be clear, I'm not judging anyone, I'm just confused lmao

[grave meteor]

sorry if its unclesr im just tired today

cuz Im just trying to end up with mobius transforms ya know

thats the whole dealio

[uncut seal]

Isn't this just z+re^i*theta, theta in [0, 2 pi[?

[grave meteor]

literally what I did

but a tad diff

I subbed out z

[uncut seal]

To get the 2d coords you just take re() and im() of that

[dusty pollen]

then you just substitute the equations for getting r and theta from a and b and make it parametric, right?

[grave meteor]

already did that

I just made a program that does that for me

so i could type less on matplotlib

[grave meteor]

I just isolated real and imag parts

I just made a program that its built into

so people can learn

[dusty pollen]

that's the same thing at the end of the day

[grave meteor]

so I can help others learn easily

I try to make my goals in coding accessibility and visulization

[dusty pollen]

wasn't this an assignment for your professor

[grave meteor]

yes and no for my github yes but I do a lot of projects for accessibility in coding

my life goals in publishing is making things so easy that anyone can understand

the biggest issue in coding is the lack of resources for people to make the transition and my goal is to allow others the accessibility to math and coding in my projects as much as possible.

[dusty pollen]

I'll be honest, lack of teaching resources is one of the few things I would say coding does not have an issue with

people have been making fantastic coding resources for people of all backgrounds and skill levels for years now

[grave meteor]

The things I offer are free and allow creativity and modding for people in games such as minecraft

theres no need to discount others efforts

[cinder karma]

https://www.ravelry.com/patterns/library/me-too-me-too I'm super excited for these socks

[grave meteor]

theres no need to be mean when people are putting in a good effort to make free teaching tools

[cinder karma]

Yarn for it

[grave meteor]

theres no need to be judgemental when people make code that brings them joy and others accessibility

[dusty pollen]

I'm not? I'm sharing my opinion, I'm so confused

nobody said you shouldn't make whatever you want, I just disagreed that there's a big issue of a lack of resources

even if there are plenty of resources, there's always room for more? two cakes and all that

[cinder karma]

(I'm trying to change the topic)

[grave meteor]

theres a lack of resrouces for younger people not adults

[cinder karma]

(I have pretty yarn)

[grave meteor]

just bc you dont see it doesnt mean it doesnt exist

the communities I run in are diff clearly from yours

all I want is to bring accessibility to places I see it doesnt exist

[dusty pollen]

besides, I'd argue that the one being rude was the one who implied that I didn't know what a vector was because I asked you a simple question, but yknow.

[dusty pollen]

I want some. give

[regal ingot]

(a valiant attempt, but it doesn't seem to be working)

[grave meteor]

I talk to people from the age of 10-40 I dont want to use big words in case someone will feel dumb

bc no one should have to

I want to meet people on their level, I dont know you or your story so I just ask

[dusty pollen]

do you keep the little ties?

I use them to make stitch markers

[cinder karma]

Nah, I don't. I barely use stitch markers

[dusty pollen]

how do you keep track then

my adhd doesn't compute

also they look really pretty if you turn them into twists

[rain apex]

!mh

[indigo mist]

For help with modding issues, please ask in #1272025932932055121! When asking for assistance there, sharing an error log will help others identify your issue (see https://smapi.io/log for instructions).

To use this command, type !mh.

[devout vault]

Watching a video titled "how it felt playing Minecraft in 2012" and spotting all the anachronisms challenge:

Leaf litter (1.21.5)
paintings from 1.21
wool carpets (1.6.1)
lily of the valley (1.14)
granite (1.8)

(Also savanna biomes which I only noticed after checking the comments, since the biome is barely visible in one of the shots.)

(The video in question: https://www.youtube.com/shorts/6imukvDlr3Q )

[uncut seal]

that's a youtube short, I wouldn't expect much

[devout vault]

I mean, sure, but I still enjoy them (both the content and the "spot anachronisms" game) 😛

[devout vault]

I watched a video on create 6.0 for the first time and realized it basically perfectly fits my “storage tech in between chests and single block terminals / instant moving stuff to places” ideal”. Perfect, but I’m a create hater 😔

[crystal wren]

Minecarts. Think of all the time we'll waste.

That is how it goes.

[devout vault]

At least you could actually get to places faster than them now back in the old minecart booster days

[crystal wren]

I really, really miss making those contraptions...

[devout vault]

Wonder how hard it would be to make minecart boosters as an intentional modded feature

Maybe instead of minecarts you could have them as actual blocks adjacent to the track that accelerated carts when they drive by touching it

[safe dragon]

Minecart boosters were great

[crystal wren]

Maybe, but like 95% of the fun in them for me was the weird janky things you had to do to make them. The feel of abusing the game's bugs.

I feel like it wouldn't be too difficult, either... if a minecraft's passing by another one, it adds some of its velocity to it?

[devout vault]

So what you’re saying is you want Jankcraft mod that introduces a bunch of mechanics that all feel like bugs

[crystal wren]

Now I think about it...

[dusty pollen]

I get the appeal

I too like seeing how I can break things

maybe programmers are all secretly cats and we just like knowing that we're doing things a little bit wrong

[devout vault]

If only being a programmer-cat could be taken a step further and other people would clean up (ie. Do support and maintenance) after me /s

[grave meteor]

Modding mc comes with some insane exploits

Grappling goes crazy

[supple ether]

How it felt playing mc in 2012:

• no nether
• the only crop is wheat
• punch sheep for wool
• no redstone
• pumpkins and clay are extremely rare

[cinder karma]

2012 was a year

[supple ether]

Like I get nostalgia but to be perfectly honest old minecraft kinda sucked ass

[grave meteor]

fr when I did build comms and had to go back versions it was never fun

[supple ether]

There are certainly aspects of new minecraft that I feel are too rpg-y and lose some of the sense of expansiveness and malleability. But like, things like being able to swim and sprint, and having an actual food system really do make the game so much better

[cinder karma]

I don't think I knew Minecraft existed in 2012

Maybe I did but I certainly was not in the headspace to play it

[grave meteor]

I was uh 8 but i dont recall the age I started mc at

[supple ether]

I was in high school in 2012

[grave meteor]

yeeeaah I graduated HS in 2022

[supple ether]

Oof, shitty time to be a high schooler

[grave meteor]

I got out a year earlier and didnt really like it so non issue for me

[uncut seal]

I think I started getting into minecraft (videos) around 2015, but with a tutorial that was from 2012, so I have a weird nostalgia for a version of the game I never played

[rain apex]

All i remember about minecraft is what i played on a tablet

It didn't have biomes or anything

[grave meteor]

Ijust like to build i made a replica of the ringed city DLC building at one point

[supple ether]

I remember the combat update was SO controversial when it came out

[supple ether]

Dlc?

[uncut seal]

which building?

[supple ether]

Oh wait you mean bedrock. Ew.

[uncut seal]

yeah, bedrock ew as well

[grave meteor]

I cannot for the life of me get a good pic of it from the game

[supple ether]

It's cool how they promised a modding api like a decade ago and all we got was official mappings and datapacks

[supple ether]

Oh that's awesome

[grave meteor]

datapacks can become really smth

tbh

[grave meteor]

ty it was a lot of time and sanity lost

[supple ether]

Yeah but it's still really limited, and also not a modding api

[grave meteor]

personally I disagree

I have been modding with it for ages through datapacks and theres some really good mods out there that expand it to an insane degree

[supple ether]

I do like how much of the game is data-driven but you still can't add items, blocks, tile entities, uis, mobs, or any new mechanics

[grave meteor]

palladium for one, you can add custom models onto players, custom items etc and its all addonpack (basically datapack) driven

[supple ether]

Well yes but that's what I'm saying. You need a mod to do that, it's not an official tool provided by the game

[grave meteor]

tbh I kinda prefer having the options as well to choose what I make datapacks through

and theres some really good ones that allow a lot of diverse stuff

[supple ether]

I won't argue with that, but it's not an official modding api despite years of promises

[grave meteor]

thats true i dont like mojang at all very much

I think even with their datapack updates its still too limiting even in 1.21 to swap to pure datapacks

one of my old devs refused and said im only doing datapacks so it was this annoying thing where i had to say no

[supple ether]

You probably weren't old enough to be aware of it, but the reason they promised it in the first place was to placate the community after they sued the bukkit developers and shut down the project

[grave meteor]

I know, I know mojang is not good to its creators

or I should say the people who keep the game alive

blah I have too many coding projects to do

[supple ether]

mood

what are you working on currently?

[grave meteor]

a python package

then I have some accesible coding applications im doing

and my SDV mod and mc mods

[cyan shadow]

Question since I didn't really follow the conversation about this earlier - what will the apps entail, exactly?

(I'm a baby programmer at best and a complete beginner at worst, so I admittedly only skimmed chat earlier. I know you're wanting to bring coding to the masses but how would you do it? Similar to codeacademy or something similar?)

[crystal wren]

(Quill, you did what I always do with Codecademy. It's not Codeaacademy. )

[rain apex]

Wtf

[cyan shadow]

It's CODECADEMY?!??

[crystal wren]

Go look!

[cyan shadow]

Well
They named it wrong, sorry

[rain apex]

I will not.

[crystal wren]

They did, yes.

[cyan shadow]

It doesn't flow off the tongue

[grave meteor]

I havent brought this up before here I do not think.

in the MC community there is this mod called origins which allows better interface and coding ease for MC datapacks.

There are two ways to code this origins creator a block coding like interface and VS code suit

My goal is to bridge the gap and help people to learn how to type code and syntax while creating powers they can use in mc

There is a lot of issues with origins creators learning bad habits so basically a cooler way to learn some mc code right

[rain apex]

Ah is it like a language server

[grave meteor]

thats a vid of its functioanlity

[grave meteor]

its in JSON simmilar to how content packs work for SDV

[cyan shadow]

Oh, I see!

That's very nice

[rain apex]

Well no i was asking more "is this thing ppl install as a vs extension to get intellisense"

But i see im completely off the mark yes

[grave meteor]

not extension its like how when ur a kid u went online and did typing practice

[cyan shadow]

I admittedly did not have typing practice as a kid but I see the vibe

Very cool concept

[grave meteor]

I think accessibility in learning fun code is so important bc lets be real kids dont wanna go on another website or it might be too intimidating

cuz lets be real the mc community is a lot of kids

[cyan shadow]

Yeah I had scratch as a kid, made it more fun

[grave meteor]

the goal is to be like scratch but teach the syntax so they can move into more complex tools

[cyan shadow]

Then I flunked math entering high school and no more computer class for me

[grave meteor]

I have a degree in math ive taken up to graduate real analysis so im more then qualified to say HS math sucks ass

[cyan shadow]

Is Java needed for content packs?

[grave meteor]

its all done in JSON files for mc datapacks

[cyan shadow]

I have a friend who is a retired plugin maker but he was strictly plugins so

Ahh

[grave meteor]

plug ins are diff

datapacks are like function files n stuff

[cyan shadow]

Was Indian high school mathematics too, sucked extra hard

[cyan shadow]

[grave meteor]

A lot of the students in my DS program are international from I believe india, is there a bigger collaberation culture there?

rather then a focus on indv scores like tests etc, Ive always wondered that bc I see much more collaboration in my DS classes

[cyan shadow]

We do group projects, but sharing resources is very common around exam time

I studied law, though, so it wasn't as prevalent as in less competitive courses

It's a very competitive country, but we still try to help out a bit

[grave meteor]

interesting I have just always wondered and im not super social so its rough to ask people irl sometimes

[cyan shadow]

It does probably depend a bit on region though

India is a bunch of countries in a trench coat

Different states have different social habits

[rain apex]

What does DS stand for (not Nintendo DS right)

[grave meteor]

yesss

[grave meteor]

ahh I see I see

[cyan shadow]

Good explanation for the accuracy of this statement: my parents are from different parts of the country and therefore only have English as a common language

[grave meteor]

guys

I did not realize my dsi would be in japanese

[cyan shadow]

You can probably change it

[grave meteor]

I need to jailbreak it

[cyan shadow]

My 3DS was in Dutch when I got it
Changed it in a few seconds

[grave meteor]

Ive jailbroken a windows 10 phone before Im sure I can do this

[cyan shadow]

It does help that I speak a bit of Dutch though

[grave meteor]

I dont speak any japanese

[cyan shadow]

Use a translator app, I think is gonna be the strat

[grave meteor]

I did

u lit cannot change lang on DSi from jap

u need to jailbreak the console

[cinder karma]

Just learn Japanese

[grave meteor]

Im not good enough at that lol

I have too much stuff to do

time to do a walmart run ig

tbh didnt wanna try to graph log anyways

[cyan shadow]

Rip

[grave meteor]

IM GONNA MOD IT

Just like I did for that windows 10 phone to play sims medieval mobile

I love that game

[cyan shadow]

No do that but it sucks that you can't change the language by default

[grave meteor]

It's Nintendo

I don't expect a lot

[cyan shadow]

I think my 3DS is multilingual since it's an EU model?

Idk

[crystal wren]

I think all Nintendo handhelds are region free?

At least?

[cyan shadow]

India isn't even a market for Nintendo so I have a hotchpotch of regions

[cyan shadow]

The 3DS is in fact region locked iirc

And there's the difference between NTSC and PAL consoles too

[cyan shadow]

My switch is Japanese, but it was in English by default

[grave meteor]

I bought region free but I'm gonna mod the DSi regardless I would do so for my switch as well if I can get my hands on it

I didn't update to the new TOS tes

Yet

[crystal wren]

...huh, so it is.

[cyan shadow]

And it was imported from Dubai to India

So presumably it made quite a trip before getting to me

[pliant snow]

DS/DSi is region free, 3DS was not

[cyan shadow]

Ye

[grave meteor]

3Ds was too expensive for me

[cyan shadow]

Mine was
Admittedly a bit pricey

But I indulged myself

[grave meteor]

It was my treat bc I wanted one lmfao

[cyan shadow]

I paid
I wanna say €150 for it?

Wait no it was more

[pliant snow]

not thats too bad

oh

[cyan shadow]

Bleh I don't remember

[grave meteor]

I'm gonna have a meeting later today and be like actually I didn't do much I was playing with my DS

[cyan shadow]

This heat is so bad

[pliant snow]

i jailbroke a japanese 3ds because it was cheaper to get

its not bad to do

[grave meteor]

The instructions are clear I think I'll be okay

[dim plaza]

Sounds fun

I miss my 3ds

[grave meteor]

The win 10 phone sucked tho

[dim plaza]

I think it got pawned or sold loll

[grave meteor]

I never had one as a kid

[cyan shadow]

I never had consoles as a kid, yeah

Any consoles bought subsequently are on account of the autonomy one gets in uni

[grave meteor]

I had a ps3 and the weird ps3 Wii attempt

I have a nice gaming laptop now and 4 monitor set up

[cyan shadow]

I have a gaming laptop and no space for a monitor, as much as I miss having one

I'd need to invest in a mount so I'm gonna wait to see if I can stay in the Netherlands first

[grave meteor]

I'm lucky to have an office space in my house but before I had laptop and monitor

[cyan shadow]

If i have to go back home I'll just buy a monitor there

[grave meteor]

Best Buy open box is good for monitors

God I have to go to Walmart I hate this place

[cinder karma]

I remember how annoying argparse is

[grave meteor]

No clue what that is

[pliant snow]

its a python library to help with command line arguments

it is indeed annoying, I often will just do it myself if i only want like one or two arguments

[grave meteor]

Ahhh I use python mostly for machine learning type dealios and dataset graphing whatever's

Rn it's just graphing

[rain apex]

I miss argparse

[cinder karma]

I miss it until I have to use it lol

[strange copper]

That about sums it up

[cinder karma]

Sums up life in general

[cinder karma]

Whoooooo what does an atra get for templating engines

[ivory shadow]

Is jinja still hip with the python kids? It's been so long since I've templated in that language

[supple ether]

Fluid looks good if you're working with c#

[cinder karma]

I don't have the ability to install otherwise I would use jinja

I'm not hip but I've used jinja before

[strange copper]

Go templating 😌

[cinder karma]

Ahhhh regex regrets

[marble jewel]

@cinder karma will you be celebrating?
https://www.daysoftheyear.com/days/worldwide-knit-in-public-day/

[cursive sigil]

atra celebrates everyday

[cinder karma]

In public?

I'll have my knitting on me

[cursive sigil]

You've shown us stuff you were working on, doesn't that count?

[cinder karma]

Yeah, I'll be knitting in public tomorrow

Because I'll be spending all day in public

[grave meteor]

Y'all wanna see my modded DS set up

(The answer is I'm gonna send it anyways)

Acc nvm idk if it's appropriate 😭

[cyan shadow]

Don't show any pirated games and you'll be fine lol

Jail breaking devices isn't against server rules

[grave meteor]

nahhh my background is junji ito its not a bad panel

but its just the remina one where they are running away

[cyan shadow]

@crystal wren come give the green blessing

[dusty pollen]

the pains of being orange

[cinder karma]

Morning, iro!!!!

[dusty pollen]

night, atra!!!!

how do you feel about "source available on request", atra

[marble jewel]

Blasphemy

[cinder karma]

Open source or nah

[dusty pollen]

they claim open source

but it's source on request

[regal ingot]

That's specifically allowed in GPLv2

[dusty pollen]

I'm aware

hence the question about thoughts not about legalities

[cyan shadow]

I know the rules but am also now just a lil guy

[grave meteor]

Hey I just don't wanna get in trouble here

It's half MCR themed half junji Ito themed

[cinder karma]

I mean you know how I feel about mods in general and the general quality level of mod code

Ie, mine was terrible! Guess why I don't maintain it

[devout vault]

(Not to nitpick but the nether, shears, and redstone were a year or two old in 2012)

[devout vault]

Definitely agree with this though, hence basically only playing heavy modded back then for me. 😛

[devout vault]

I wouldn't be surprised if some PvP servers still use that version to this day (or revert combat stuff to be similar to then, and/or use one of those multi version client support things)

[devout vault]

(I was surprised recently when they actually added datapack UIs, though they can't do item slots)

[lethal walrus]

The big pvp servers still do, hypixel (except for their SMPs, one build battle mode and soon to be skyblock) is all 1.8

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6419 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1383031229783343166)

[supple ether]

Eh, it's been almost 15 years since I started playing Minecraft, I forgot when it went from infdev to alpha to beta

[crystal wren]

I remember playing before torch lighting was a thing... it was truly a different time.

[safe dragon]

I started in alpha 1.2.6

leaves didn't decay due to a bug

I played on that version till I finally uh, bought the game, in beta 1.3

which I think introduced beds

[tranquil grove]

this convo made me realize I've been backing up my screenshot folder for 15 years

(think I joined during the multiplayer test, but that's the earliest I've got)

[supple ether]

oh man the old diamond block texture

[safe dragon]

and iron in the hotbar

oh and the trees

[dusty pollen]

this is closer to what I remember from the one time I tried minecraft than the rest of the stuff you guys send

but that was in 2015ish

[safe dragon]

maybe you played classic

[dusty pollen]

maybe?

who knows tbh

[supple ether]

2015 I think was still using the old textures

though the metal block textures had changed by that point

I think that would've been 1.7.10-ish?

[ivory shadow]

I wonder what my oldest Minecraft screenshot is. I'll have to look once I'm at my PC. I definitely started on like... 1.3? Maybe?

[cinder karma]

There. @marble jewel

[dusty pollen]

looks soft

held double?

yup, can see it now

are you doing the petiteknits kid silk merino thing

[winged cape]

idk if this is the sub for this but random programming stuff: where do you need encapsulation in games?

[rain apex]

No one needs encapsulation to do anything

It's merely a good pattern to follow

And this "good" is subjective & language dependent

[winged cape]

is it helpful to prevent bugs? learning c# rn lol and confused by why it's needed

[safe dragon]

like any pattern it's not "needed" but keeping the logic that operates on data near the data and avoiding anything else from directly accessing that data makes things easier to reason about as your application grows and it becomes harder to keep track what affects what

[winged cape]

oh thank you!

[crystal wren]

And especially for something like games, your priority should be to find a good balance between designing things to make it easy to maintain, and actually get the game finished.

[dusty pollen]

I'm someone who likes to do a very very clear separation of logic and draw but everyone has their own preferences

(part of it is that I like things as encapsulated as possible)

[pliant snow]

I just put everything into a single file, that way I don't have to worry about scope

[dusty pollen]

write in javascript so you always have to worry about scope

[cinder karma]

What's this draw

[rain apex]

so how many mb is governor.py

[cinder karma]

What's this scope

[dusty pollen]

scope is that thing whatever people want me to do is out of

[pliant snow]

150, but it's all condensened onto one line

[dusty pollen]

...and you're sure you aren't writing js?

[pliant snow]

I write it in my own interpreted language, where each character is given a different meaning of my choosing

[lethal walrus]

that explains why all my code is untested and when I ran governor it always broke

[pliant snow]

governor should be easier to run now, hopefully

[lethal walrus]

(spoiler: ||yes they're untested but it doesn't run bc the code for free games just hangs??||)

[pliant snow]

oh

[lethal walrus]

tbh all it takes is commenting out one line and running main.py

we had this convo in the top secret channel before

[pliant snow]

I don't remember things

[safe dragon]

the code is just python but put through a caesar cipher

[rain apex]

I have so many questions

But I'll refrain from asking for my sanity

[pliant snow]

it's just regular python, but all the functions form rhyming limericks

[safe dragon]

the spaces are also included in the cipher

the cipher is based on a shift in UTF8 codepoints

hope that answers your questions

[wet tendon]

when teaching people computer programming

it feels like a huge part of it is just... type with care, read what you've written, and internalize the syntax

but it's really hard to actually teach people that stuff

it's weird

"type with care" especially is something i have difficulty teaching

i often just say "type with care, type with care, type with care" because i have no idea how to get people to actually internalize that every key they press matters

idk

[strange copper]

dang when i taught people to code I had a much harder time getting them to think about how to break down that, say, a problem needed a loop or something

they'd just sit there

[wet tendon]

idk, ive only taught people who were motivated enough to atleast try things when they were stuck

thankfully i don't teach anything professionally, i could not pull off teaching people who don't really want to do anything

[strange copper]

well that's good at least!

[wet tendon]

it's especially frustrating when most of the issues in question are things that won't actually prevent the code from running (bad formatting) but it's part of a bigger problem because they also make syntax mistakes every so often

[cinder karma]

Tbh and this is my honest opinion from being in vim too long

Syntax should be 80% the ide 20% me

[wet tendon]

imo teaching programming without any kind of auto-formatter is good because you can pressure them into formatting the code nicely themself, which makes them have to think about the syntax and everything

but i'm biased bc i don't like auto-formatting myself

[strange copper]

you like hitting the tab key yourself?

[cinder karma]

Ehhhhhh nah

I prefer my code autoformattrd to company standards

[strange copper]

when i was learning java, intellij actually taught me how to do some boolean logic more efficiently and readably through its suggestions

[wet tendon]

when i need to increase the indentation level, yes

[cinder karma]

Yes I disagree with the auto format all the time but it's better if we are internally consistent

[strange copper]

what, you don't want your 151 character line split because it was one character too big?

[cinder karma]

Ah, you recall me bitching about the lack of hysteresis in line splitting

[wet tendon]

unfortunately auto-formatting destroys a lot of contextual information that can make it easier to understand the code; formatting choices convey meaning to the reader

[cinder karma]

That's what comments are for.

[terse galleon]

my CS professor made us code on paper and would dock us on things like indentation/missed semicolons/etc on our exams, which i always thought was stupid because when coding on the computer either they would be auto-added by the software, or they would be caught as an error by the software

[wet tendon]

uncultured

[cinder karma]

Absolutely

[wet tendon]

(joke(

no but seriously like

[cinder karma]

Tbh part of my issue is that due to our lack of autoformat

[strange copper]

i think in-person coding exams are fine but docking for semicolons or small spelling errors is silly

when i took irl coding exams they were lenient on those things

[cinder karma]

I have to deal with things like Project_Dig_Wrap

[wet tendon]

i completely agree that everyone should follow the same formatting standards when working on the same codebase, but auto-formatting is too destructive

[strange copper]

i truly wish to know what formatting choices are destroyed by IDEs

what am i missing here

[cinder karma]

Or the fact that a bunch of our old files are inconsistently indetented

In Rust, I like one thought per line

Not one function call

So I'll .skip().takewhile() or smth

[terse galleon]

oh yeah that was never my issue, especially in days before covid (cheating was rampant in the CS program; the paper exams sought to minimize that). i agree and think that you should be grading me on my knowledge of when to use a for loop, not my tiny errors that each take off 0.25% and add up to huge minuses lol

[strange copper]

totally fair

[cinder karma]

But the autoformat is too dumb for that and will put every function call on a separate line

[wet tendon]

to give a boringly common example,

let matrix = [
    1.0, 0.0, 0.0,
    0.0, 1.0, 0.0,
    0.0, 0.0, 1.0,
];

[dusty pollen]

this might be a strange question, but have you explained to them why it matters?

[cinder karma]

I absolutely get that. I still prefer autoformat 99% of the time

Especially when there are four of us and it's not me alone anymore

[strange copper]

i've never had an ide destroy my matrices but maybe i just haven't made enough matrices

[dusty pollen]

(though I agree teaching via IDE is easier lmao)

[dusty pollen]

I feel like other than the trailing comma (configurable), my IDE would be perfectly okay with this?

[cinder karma]

(You can see that is a 1d matrix that I assume esper is gonna stride)

Not a 2d matrix

🦀 ( 💞 )

[dusty pollen]

is this rust or js lmao

[cinder karma]

Rust

[strange copper]

if it's 1d then why are we putting it on 3 lines

is that THe Point

[dusty pollen]

let is a js keyword too you know

[cinder karma]

No I didn't

[strange copper]

let and const have effectively replaced var

[cinder karma]

It's 1d in memory layout and 2d in heart

[dusty pollen]

js has three variable keywords, var, let and const. or you could just not

and it lets you

[strange copper]

you can leave out the keyword???

awful

[dusty pollen]

lmao try it in your browser console

iirc it works just fine

[strange copper]

i'm too afraid to see the truth iro

[strange copper]

awful

[dusty pollen]

...does assignment actually return the value

or is that just a custom thing the console is doing

[strange copper]

i feel like python shell does it too?

[dusty pollen]

awful

[strange copper]

unsure

[cinder karma]

Anyways to be more off topic

[dusty pollen]

what's the walrus operator for then...

[strange copper]

the who

[cinder karma]

I'm in San Francisco

[wet tendon]

there are more intricate examples
e.g.

fn foo_one(
    some: bool,
    common: u8
    args: ShortType,
) {
    ...
}

fn foo_two(
    some: bool,
    common: u8,
    args: VeryLongTypeThatForcesTheFunctionArgsOntoMultipleLines,
) {
    ...
}
```having both functions wrapped the same way despite `foo_one` not needing it helps with easily understanding the similarities and differences between the functions

[cinder karma]

(And now you know why i was bitchijf about the lack of hysteresis in line wrap lol)

[strange copper]

tbh i have never wanted to do that but i understand why it would frustrate you if you want to do that

[cinder karma]

That said I would take autoformat over massive inconsistent

[wet tendon]

auto-formatting sorta presumes that code only exists to make the computer do what we want it to do

[dusty pollen]

def someval(...):
  ...
  return something
if (a := someval(...) == ...):
    print(a)

[strange copper]

you can do this in python????

i only := in golang

[wet tendon]

but obv code exists to make it easy for humans to understand what the computer is doing; providing additional methods of conveying that to readers is a wonderful thing

[dusty pollen]

anyway esper what I meant when I asked this was that I found that people usually understand the explanation that computers do not think or read english, they only know to recognise exact words or syntaxes, so if your text is incorrect the computer will not recognise it

[wet tendon]

oh, yes ofc

people tend to get that pretty easily

[wet tendon]

auto-formatting is kinda like unilaterally deleting comments from the code imo (although personally i'm not a fan of comments outside of specific situations but whatever)

i'm not a compiler, i don't read syntax trees, i read source code

[frosty echo]

https://docs.python.org/3/whatsnew/3.8.html#assignment-expressions

[dusty pollen]

I feel like auto formatting is explicitly the opposite of that tbh, if it was only for computers it wouldn't be necessary

it exists to maintain certain good practices that increase readability, like indentation and breaking things up correctly, and "accepted" practices that increase understanding because we all know what to expect

the rest is obviously up to us (and depends on context, if I see "educational" style comments in an actual professional environment I will be somewhat annoyed lmao) but generally can be done within an IDE nowadays

[frosty echo]

So kind of new

[strange copper]

auto-formatting can also be good for enforcing VERY BASIC web accessibility! I added a frontend autoformatter once so nobody could get their PRs through without alt text on images. It can't check the quality of your alt text but it can force you to write it

[wet tendon]

maintaining those practices should be up to the programmer, because it should also be up to the programmer to break those practices when it would make the code easier to understand

[dusty pollen]

but autoformatters don't stop you from ignoring them, every autoformatter I've used allows you to do what you want at the end of the day, it's just the default

[strange copper]

people simply will get lazy in production environemtns

you cannot stop them

[wet tendon]

girl that is not what im talking about when i say auto-formatting

[strange copper]

the auto formatter did otehr things chill 😭

[dusty pollen]

I'm not sure we understand what you mean by auto formatting then but there's no need to be rude to barley

[strange copper]

i have had beef with auto-formatters sometimes but i think they're a net positive on teams

i don't install em on personal things tho

[wet tendon]

u have not experienced the horror of ci that fails if you don't auto-format your code (or, even worse, random people auto-formatting files causing lines to change when they barely touched the actual code)

[strange copper]

i literally have experienced CI that fails if you don't auto format ur code and I wouldnt' be surprised if iro has too

i think it's ok to just say we disagree tho

[dusty pollen]

that's a different issue and I have very much experienced that haha

but those people will also just manually reformat your code for no reason in my experience

[wet tendon]

@strange copper sorry, i don't mean to be rude if that's how i'm coming off

[strange copper]

All good thank you

[wet tendon]

just tryna joke around

[strange copper]

Id be so annoyed omg 😭

[dusty pollen]

the nightmares I've seen, barley

and I was the one running the CI

[strange copper]

Jail for 1000 years

[wet tendon]

tbf when someone submits a pr to one of my repos i usually fix the formatting manually 💀

[dusty pollen]

I will say, the CI I did did not touch formatting

[wet tendon]

not my fault they can't follow the formatting conventions established in the code 🙄

[dusty pollen]

it was just push -> test -> manual push to prod oh dear god why did you skip test and manually push to prod at 4:30PM on a thursday when we all work from home fridays--

[strange copper]

Honestly if you own the codebase go right ahead

In teams with a shared project 8d throw hands but if it was someone else's project I can't be mad

[dusty pollen]

(real story, btw. He then got annoyed that I spent time after hours fixing his code which crashed our entire app)

[strange copper]

Overriding test phase is crazy

[wet tendon]

tbf i understand that programmers are uncultured savages who wouldn't follow explicitly defined formatting rules if it saved their lives, but auto-formatting just sucks so bad that it's still hard to get on board

[dusty pollen]

when I say crashed the entire app

I mean white home page with error message crashed all of the tests would have definitely failed had he let them run

[wet tendon]

(can you tell i like feeling superior to people)

[strange copper]

Simply write ur own auto formatrwr and force everyone to adopt it

Inset xkcd 15 competing standarxa

[wet tendon]

(im compensating for a deeply-ingrained inferiority complex)

[wet tendon]

noooooooo my semantic information 😢

my new auto formatter will kill you if you leave too many comments

[cinder karma]

I like my inane comments and I cannot lie

[dusty pollen]

what about the people who put their entire license in their comments

[cinder karma]

"//not sure" was a fun recent one

(Am still not sure)

[dusty pollen]

I just comment out random lines of code and don't explain why I did that or what they're for

deleting is scary so we shall comment instead

[wet tendon]

when i see shit like this i cry

// get the minimum bounding coordinate
let min_bound = ...;

that stuff is dangerous

[cinder karma]

I'm usually very aggressive on deleting over commenting out

But we are in svn

[dusty pollen]

this was me when I was in secondary school and they told us we needed to comment every line

[cinder karma]

So I comment out now

[dusty pollen]

x = 5 # assign x to 5

iirc I was actually made to write that exact line once

[wet tendon]

COMMENTS THAT ARE OKAY:

• doc comments
• safety assertions
• invariant contracts
• the occasional comment explaining why you're doing something particularly unexpected
  ALL OTHER COMMENTS WILL BE SHOT

[dusty pollen]

I was just about to talk about invariants

most annoying comments to write ngl

[cinder karma]

//Todo

//hack

//god help me

[dusty pollen]

writing mathematical proofs in comments is annoying and I refuse

[strange copper]

Based

[dusty pollen]

insert red squiggly line bc it's spelled h4ck

[dusty pollen]

// I don't know what this is but if I remove it everything breaks

[wet tendon]

oh and if you implement q_rsqrt you have to include the wtf comment

[dusty pollen]

and also, the most valid comment of all,

// I'm so sorry

is that the bitshift one

[wet tendon]

that falls under "the occasional comment explaining why you're doing something particularly unexpected" 😁

[wet tendon]

i had one comment once that was just "yes, i know this is an awful mess, but it's the best way to do this because reasons"

[dusty pollen]

not worthy of the I'm so sorry comment

[wet tendon]

yea

[dusty pollen]

the I'm so sorry comment is for when there were absolutely better ways and you had no right to be this awful (most of my code)

[cinder karma]

(But also why. https://www.intel.com/content/www/us/en/docs/onemkl/developer-reference-dpcpp/2025-0/invsqrt.html )

[cinder karma]

It's the one where you reinterpret a float as an int

[dusty pollen]

isn't an inverse square root a square...

[cinder karma]

No

It's shorthand for 1/sqrt(x)

[wet tendon]

isn't this instruction unavailable on many processors?

[dusty pollen]

oh right, yeah

[cinder karma]

Us engineers apologize

[dusty pollen]

nah we use that terminology too I just forgot

also the answer is ML

[cinder karma]

This one is Intel specific. My understanding is that amd has similar

[dusty pollen]

it's midnight, I'm tired, night nerds (compl.)

[wet tendon]

people say that q_rsqrt is useless nowadays but it does still outperform a standard sqrt + recip operation in most languages

[cinder karma]

Then you do newton's method twice but comment the second time out

[wet tendon]

right, but q_rsqrt is still the best fallback algorithm for when special instructions are unavailable

[dusty pollen]

oh btw

it's because of the many languages that don't have operations utilising these processor instructions (python without numpy, for example)

regardless of whether or not it's available, python just doesn't access it

(unless you use numpy ofc)

[wet tendon]

or if you're doing cursed shit like normalizing quaternions at compile-time in rust 💀

i love my work-in-progress const libm crate

[cinder karma]

The language has access to reinterpret cast but not the instruction for inverse square root

[devout vault]

My highly opinionated ones!

If you search "from:kittycatcasey tabs spaces" there's like 3-4 different times I talk about this, here's the most recent two:

#programmers-off-topic message

#programmers-off-topic message

[devout vault]

<intro to CS (or maybe it was AP computer science?) horror flashbacks>

Also re:comments, I'm sure there's tons of fun ones in my mod repo, but my favorite off the top of my head:

// This is really bad. Pathos don't kill me.

(Using reflection to get the instance of another mod/contentpack for asset/filepath nonsense via the mod info returned from the mod registry)

Also, me with all my ideas lately:

[dusty pollen]

secondary school, so high school age

[devout vault]

Ah. Well, I can't recall if I was stuck doing that in college intro to CS or AP comp sci (or both)

[dusty pollen]

by college I think my tutors/lecturers would have thrown a desk at my head

[devout vault]

Alas I couldn't skip intro to CS because AP comp sci was Java, and this was a C++ college 😔

[dusty pollen]

I couldn't skip any of the basic courses because we don't do that here

[devout vault]

Signs of a memory leak: An app that does very little is taking up over 9 GB of RAM, and after restarting it it's taking less than 100 MB

[dusty pollen]

oof

[devout vault]

It was the audio device switcher app I mentioned before, EarTrumpet. Since I had the source already from making fixes I opened VS and attached the debugger and it was only 250 MB in managed memory. Also it kept changing while the app was paused in the debugger, eventually going down and settling at 4.2 GB.

smh

Is it even possible to keep some code going while the debugger pauses the program? I have vague recollections of that being a technique for debugging online games for keeping a "network socket heartbeat thread" going, but I read about that well over a decade ago so not sure if I'm remembering right

[dusty pollen]

this is territory that frightens and concerns me

for three reasons, from least to most important:

• I have no idea how to make sure it isn't malware
• I have no idea how to solve it
• it may mean having to deal with memory management

[devout vault]

You have your priorities in order I see

[dusty pollen]

I stand by them

[ivory shadow]

This meme also attacks me. :<

[cinder karma]

Does the debugger pause every thread or only one thread

[cinder karma]

Hey guys. What tourism should I do in San Francisco

[rain apex]

did u go to the big bridge

[cinder karma]

Not yet.

[rain apex]

oh and ghirardelli

i liked all the chocolaty machines

[cinder karma]

Oooh!!!!

I'm not doing the Chinatown visit

I feel like I've been traveling so much latelt

[cinder karma]

Oooh!

[cinder karma]

You know you're in California when peets wants four fuckkng dollars for a cup of coffee

Smh

I'll backtrack to the 7/11 before paying these prices

Okay maybe I can find a downtown yarn shop

[strange copper]

4 dollars for drip or an espresso drink

If my latte is under 6 dollars I feel lucky

[sand frost]

There’s a nice (free) cable car museum

And if you like machines or arcades my brother liked musee mechanique

[cinder karma]

I've found an Asian art museum

[sand frost]

Yes I was about to rec that!

[cinder karma]

Also found a train

A day where i find a train is grear

This is train #2

And it looks like I can grab the bart directly from here too, nice!!

[dusty pollen]

come to London, we have many

[cinder karma]

I would need to have a friend get married in London for that

[dusty pollen]

boo

[cursive sigil]

I have one doing that in august lol

[dusty pollen]

do you ever feel like you appreciate these things more ever since you got into crafting

[cinder karma]

I've been into crafting since I was wee

[dusty pollen]

same but the more I get into it the more I appreciate them

[cinder karma]

Surprised the ladies at knit night when I told them I've been knitting for two decades

Mannnnnn when I have the time and I live somewhere better I'm taking pottery classes

[dusty pollen]

I haven't been doing yarn crafts for that long but I've been doing general arts and crafts my whole life

[cinder karma]

I want pottery lessons now oh my god

[cinder karma]

Can someone explain to me why there are two non intersecting subways in San Francisco

[safe dragon]

to mess with people

Google tells me it's due to old no longer relevant census data considering San Jose to be separate

[dusty pollen]

TIL about ruffle, a project that uses rust/wasm to allow flash things to continue working online apparently armor games uses it

[safe dragon]

yeah I remember hearing about it at the time flash support was ending

[dusty pollen]

it means one of my favourite flash game series that nobody ever seems to have heard of (Shift) is still as playable as it was back then

[crystal wren]

...I loved that game.

Think I only played the first one, though? Don't think I knew there WERE more.

[cyan shadow]

Ruffle is great

Works a treat

[dusty pollen]

there are 4! 4 even has a level maker

[devout vault]

I am once again watching a video of old minecraft mods and being sad that mine aren't listed

I did find one video that had Survival Wings (and even listed my old username as the author!), but the download link is to 9minecraft. 😔

And 9minecraft didn't even bother getting their screenshots, these are literally the ones I took (which is obvious considering they're all using Painterly Pack, which was my texture pack of choice back then).

Bonus annoyance that they took my screenshot and put a watermark for their own site on it

(And you can see one of my other mods in that screenshot. The text in the top left is from my third person camera mod)

[uncut seal]

I think I would blow myself up if I made minecraft mods and this shit happened.

[dusty pollen]

if they were so willing to credit, they may be receptive to being given a better link? hopefully?

(also fun fact, since I've only ever spoken to you as kittycatcasey, whenever I see a mod with this name as the author I immediately feel like "oh cool, that's made by this person I talk to!" but I don't have that reaction to mods with your old name even though I know it's you I didn't know that person I just know Casey )

[hardy jewel]

@devout vault SORRY

I SAVED YOU

[devout vault]

I can only assume it was from the mention of the accursed mod download link proxies 😅

Was a bit surprised since it wasn't an actual link but given the way spammers try to work around those filters it makes complete sense

[hardy jewel]

it was the adf.ly mention!

[crystal wren]

Did you-

Oh.

[devout vault]

Perhaps? But that tab is in the abyss of my browser history now.

Also it's not like I ever had it on curseforge, it was just the minecraft forums and my website. (I don't think curseforge had gained traction back then if it even existed - that was still the era of <redacted but websites that made you wait on a page of pure ads before a download link was available after 30 seconds> links )

[devout vault]

I was completely prepared to just wait an hour in silent contemplation 😅 I appreciate it.

(I took a screenshot of the message and was just going to DM the response instead 😛 )

(But then Zoe saved the day)

[devout vault]

Clearly you weren't around on this server (much?) pre-casey-name-change 😛

[dusty pollen]

I was not, no I'm not even sure I played stardew pre name change (depending on when you changed it)

[thin estuary]

that site was my first way of getting some actual income, and a lot of it

[dusty pollen]

I started playing around December 2023 iirc, and then stopped right on the same day that 1.6 released in march 2024, and came back january of this year

[thin estuary]

it was so cool to see how popular The Aether got

[dusty pollen]

or december of last year actually

[devout vault]

The first time I changed it on here seems to be april 2022 (#making-mods-general message), but I started before that point (as mentioned in that conversation)

[dusty pollen]

(but since I started playing on apple arcade, I got to see 1.4, 1.5 and 1.6)

so way before I ever played stardew

[devout vault]

I hated those sites so much so I refused to use them. (I didn't have an adblocker back then)

Fun fact! Since I hosted my mods on my own website, people often would hotlink the files from their sites. Including putting them behind those ad sites.

So not only was a creating/maintaing the mod and doing the hosting, other people decided to profit of it without even bothering to rehost it themselves 😛

[crystal wren]

I was corrected on the name (in a DM) riiiight here.

[devout vault]

(I found the hotlinking via my server log type stuff)

So I never found out how lucrative those sites were, even at the meager scale of my download counts

[thin estuary]

back in my time the wait was like 5 seconds for each link

so it was fine

[devout vault]

Oh, maybe I'm confusing it then

I remember being around when they first started getting use

[thin estuary]

Aether money got me my first iPhone

[dusty pollen]

I'm sure I got some viruses from used those websites at some points when I was younger

[crystal wren]

The wait was fine for me with an ad blocker because I don't trust ad networks for shit, especially ones that push on sites like those.

[devout vault]

Maybe my impatience inflated the time in my memories 😛

See, one thing my parents drilled into me was to never click any ads was so ever, so it wasn't much of an issue. Besides the fake download buttons (which those sites did have plenty of to be fair), but usually I was able to figure it out pre-click