programmers-off-topic

[sand frost]

My problem is that I hate windows and Macs are expensive

[worn remnant]

if you can't think of one, don't try it out

[sand frost]

So far I have solved this problem by using more money

[rain apex]

More seriously tho i solved my wifi driver woes just by having fiber internet so it was fast enough to not rly care

[sand frost]

And getting Macs

[marble jewel]

Moneybags MathPerson here

[sand frost]

Unfortunately a bunch of software just doesn’t work on macs

[rain apex]

As for sound I don't think i ever had serious problems with pulse audio

[sand frost]

I mean macs do also last longer than windows laptops from what I’ve seen

So while I’m not really optimal for money I’m not thattt bad

[worn remnant]

people like me who choose linux tend to have problems like "i want the ability to replace deficient parts of the OS with parts that work the way i want" (please do not ask me how often i exercise this ability)

[sand frost]

That has never been my issue lol

I have a work desktop with windows for the software that only works on windows

[wet tendon]

if ur device is too new the drivers might still be fucky on linux but generally drivers tend to be fine

[rain apex]

Honestly Elizabeth i basically went linux for the same reason

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6384 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1375180327370100829)

[cinder karma]

Pros: you can do anything

[rain apex]

Except i hated macs more than i ever hated windows

[cinder karma]

Cons: you have to do everything

[rain apex]

So i skipped the step where i buy a mac

[wet tendon]

dont buy a brand-new laptop model that released a month ago and install linux on it, you might have to wait a few months for driver support and stuff

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6385 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1375178416659370106)

[ivory shadow]

Linux: because it's not Windows 11

[cinder karma]

-# peer pressure

[rain apex]

Since we are #framework-off-topic the rec is ofc get old 11th gen framework for cheap

[cinder karma]

The rec is to make friends with IT and pick up an used business dell for cheap tbh

Sure. Dells are trash

But you can't beat $150 for a 2 year old laptop

[supple ether]

If I want a linux box I will probably just reimage my ancient crusty laptop

[wet tendon]

i genuinely struggle to see how programmers and other techy people manage to use windows at all sometimes. the other day i was tryna help my girlfriend (who recently switched back to windows so her vr headset would work) use yt-dlp and it was genuinely impossible to do ??

[rain apex]

Well if they r .net ppl it's understandable

[supple ether]

Impossible how?

[ivory shadow]

The real rec is to convince IT to buy a bunch of Framework laptops, wait a few years, and get a cheap used one when some manager decides they need to buy all new ones instead of just upgrading them for some dumb reason /s

[strange copper]

i think i could switch to a mac laptop but my desktop is going ot stay windows because gaming

[rain apex]

At work my laptop exists to ssh into actual linux work environment provisioned in some big data center somewhere so the os of the laptop is unimportant

[wet tendon]

yt-dlp was missing ffmpeg and it wouldn't find it no matter where she put it -- we tried using winget but apparently it doesn't properly install binaries (it doesn't add them to PATH) so it just. wouldnt work

[strange copper]

i add stuff to path manually all the time

[rain apex]

I thought u do that from control panel

[ivory shadow]

Why switch to a Mac laptop when you can switch to a Linux laptop and have all the benefit of a weird operating system that half of software doesn't support but without paying a nonsensical Apple tax :>

[rain apex]

Edit PATH

[wet tendon]

cursed as hell

[strange copper]

it's rly not that hard to edit manually

[ivory shadow]

Also, Proton is legitimately very impressive for gaming these days. If it doesn't have anticheat it probably works on Linux

[rain apex]

Yeah but it is in a gui and therefore kind of gross

[red crest]

the only reason I have a Linux machine is because all my self hosted/media server stuff is basically made for it and I had a second machine to use for it but I don't think I'd wanna switch to it full time

[strange copper]

i don't actually own a mac because i don't need a new laptop anytime soon but the apple tax is pretty steep yeah

[safe dragon]

I 'member spending a whole evening trying to install the vulkan sdks on windows and then out of pure frustration decided to do the same on my linux dual boot and it took like 10 minutes... It was one of the first big things that made me move towards just deleting windows entirely

[wet tendon]

"open control panel" i would rather relapse on my anorexia kthx

[cinder karma]

Look I'm not sure work likes me that much

[cinder karma]

Ditto (except the data center is on site)

[safe dragon]

my company is mandated to use HP laptops from a parent company

[sand frost]

I like that my laptop Just Works and I feel like this is what I pay apple tax for

[strange copper]

i don't think i would ever want to only own a mac as my singular computer because the gaming stuff that doesn't work on the mac overrides the fact that windows is sometimes a virus

[sand frost]

I don’t play very many video games

[strange copper]

like what do you mean only official xbox controllers work on mac

[sand frost]

And Stardew works on macs 😛

[wet tendon]

macos cant run windows games unlike linux

[rain apex]

-# !macsmapi

[safe dragon]

I don't ssh into anything for work but I remote into a pc using citrix sometimes... does that count

[cinder karma]

I play, on the first approximation , zero video game

[sand frost]

Loool it does work though!!

[cinder karma]

It's even less video game than two years ago

[rain apex]

I made proton run non games sometimes cus it is just convenient lol

[sand frost]

I play slightly more than Atra

I played a video game last week!

[safe dragon]

as a niri desktop user I think I have nothing to explain about the appeal of linux for me

[rain apex]

And sometimes works better than wine for mysterious reasons

[cinder karma]

You play stardew

[sand frost]

Don’t ask how long it had been since the time before

[cinder karma]

I don't know why I'm here

[safe dragon]

I have not booted up a game in weeks

[cinder karma]

I don't even play stardew

[wet tendon]

does running a game to test mods count as playing a game

[sand frost]

You’re here for the peer pressure

[supple ether]

Hm, weird

[sand frost]

And the framework-off-topic

[cinder karma]

-# peer pressure

[supple ether]

No

[wet tendon]

if mod development counts as playing games then i play video games all the time!!!

oh

ok then i dont play video games

[rain apex]

You are also here to tell people atracore did that (but it doesn't work)

[cinder karma]

Heyyy

[wet tendon]

i heal my girlfriend in world of warcraft some weekends that counts as playing video games

[rain apex]

No that's dating

[wet tendon]

oh 😔

[rain apex]

But very sweet of you yes

[cinder karma]

Is mowing the lawn play video games

Is buying stocks play video games

[rain apex]

Sometimes this channel gets very interesting and in the weeds

[cinder karma]

Is layout pcb play video game

[rain apex]

But most of the time it's programming-off-topic-off-topic

[ivory shadow]

Yes: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1480560/Lawn_Mowing_Simulator/

[rain apex]

When's netherlands-on-topic gonna make a return

Crumble gib update pls

[wet tendon]

noone cared when i posted the funniest programming joke ever the other day 😢

[ivory shadow]

Still wondering when the mods are going to fix the typo in #programmers-off-topic

[cinder karma]

@devout vault look grass touching you might actually support!

[grave meteor]

literally the first thing I saw when i opened chat

[wet tendon]

im so sorry

[strange copper]

why do u hate opening control panel sm

not to be a windows brain but i truly don't think it's that bad lol

[wet tendon]

control panel is evil horrible

[safe dragon]

do we have enough dutch people in this channel

[wet tendon]

ESPECIALLY when the reason you're opening control panel is to add something to PATH like wtfffff

[strange copper]

dude just paste the path in the path field 😭

[ivory shadow]

Control Panel isn't the problem. Microsoft half-assing migrating everything to a new settings app is the problem

[cinder karma]

One is sufficient

We also have a quill

[rain apex]

There's like 1.5 right

[wet tendon]

why do you configure your entire operating system's tiny detailed settings from a weird-ass broken settings app

i know its called windows but does everything need a gui

[cinder karma]

I know instead you can have everything be css

Orrrr you can use random key value pairs you have to memory

[wet tendon]

my experience with control panel is always:

• im helping someone with an issue on their windows system
• find a guide describing exactly the problem they're having, the only solution is in control panel
• tell them exactly where to go in control panel to fix the setting
• they navigate through ten pages of menus and on the very last page the button they need to click to edit the setting is just fucking missing. its not there

no idea why but this happens every time

[strange copper]

you spend more time in control panel than me who has a comptuer with control panel on it

[wet tendon]

the one button you need is just gone

[strange copper]

the only button u need is "edit system environment variables" 😤

[wet tendon]

girllll i mean in general 😭

[safe dragon]

the primary strategy of fixing problems on windows is to click through the settings menu till you get to an "advanced" settings panel back from windows xp which actually has real settings to use

[strange copper]

so true

[wet tendon]

cursed as hell

[strange copper]

are u a mac or linux user

[wet tendon]

linux bc im a programmer and a communist and it can run windows games

[strange copper]

acceptable

[marble jewel]

I'd run Linux, but it's not clear to me if it can run Windows games at all. Does anyone know if Linux can run Windows games?

[safe dragon]

it can't

it's illegal

[marble jewel]

That's what I thought

[strange copper]

my partner has a mac and they were like "we should play witchbrook when it releases this year" and it turns out windows only

[wet tendon]

linux can run windows games if you take her out on a romantic date first and then kiss her under the stars and tell her how you feel about her

[ivory shadow]

But can Windows run Linux games

[safe dragon]

all 5 of them

does tux kart have a windows version

[ivory shadow]

Yes

[marble jewel]

Windows is Linux, so checkmate atheists
https://blogs.windows.com/windowsdeveloper/2025/05/19/the-windows-subsystem-for-linux-is-now-open-source/

[safe dragon]

tuxkart even has a switch version damn

[wet tendon]

i dont remember if wsl can run gui apps yet

[safe dragon]

it can as far as I know

but I've never used it

[thin estuary]

modders don't play games

[ivory shadow]

SuperTux and SuperTuxKart. What are the other three Linux games

[safe dragon]

modders only launch games they don't play them

[crystal wren]

I've seen people run IntelliJ in WLS for some... reason.

[thin estuary]

launch? ha

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6386 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1375187035861815378)

[thin estuary]

does it build? publish it

[wet tendon]

i saw a bevy game once that only supported unix and wasm 💀

cant remember what it was called

[marble jewel]

I wonder if I can run Rider on WSL....

[safe dragon]

can we count glxgears as a game...

[ivory shadow]

Oh. Pingus

How could I forget Pingus

[wet tendon]

so i suppose windows could run the game...... in firefox

[strange copper]

hey i mean..... the other day in java windows refused to let me delete a file after closing it because the file didn't actually close

[crystal wren]

Considering these people also ran Android Studio in WSL... including device emulation, I'd wager probably.

[marble jewel]

Not that it'd put me any closer to SDV modding

[cinder karma]

Hey

You have active supported mods

I have inactive unhelpful mods

[safe dragon]

I don't have any

[wet tendon]

i have active unhelpful mods

[cinder karma]

I see you too have found r/insert_random_subreddit

[heavy dagger]

https://reddit.com/r/insert_random_subreddit

[marble jewel]

As of today, my break since my last update was 3 months ago. I should probably get on my backlog soon.

[safe dragon]

backlogs are only to add to not to work on

[cinder karma]

As of today, my break since my last update was more than two years

[safe dragon]

I've never gone on break

[thin estuary]

huh you're right, it's been 2 years already

[cinder karma]

Yeah

[thin estuary]

https://tenor.com/view/stantwt-chained-up-chained-gif-67266779391248431

[cinder karma]

I think it was like...August of last year when I realized like

The fact that I hadn't done 1.6 update

And had no timeline

Meant that either I had to priority it (ewww no) or it simply was not going to ever happen

-# please ignore commits to repo since

[marble jewel]

Too late, didn't ignore

And you call yourself inactive, for shame

[ivory shadow]

It's probably about time for me to poke at some mod stuff again. Maybe actually polish up that thing about buildable terrain edits for release

[cinder karma]

That's pretty inactive tbh

[marble jewel]

Better Mutexes, when?

[ivory shadow]

(Realistically, my first thought for that was putting all mutexes on the main net root, but then you could get locks but the chest contents themselves wouldn't sync properly)

[dusty pollen]

wait that's so weird, it used to be that if it worked fine on desktop, mobile would at least hide the language tag, but now it shows it

[marble jewel]

I'll just make my mod that breaks everything and gives every chest a uuid global inventory id

[ivory shadow]

There's just not a good way to fix chests in multiplayer on other maps

[dusty pollen]

you edited one of them to csharp and now mobile is hiding it correctly... is mobile not recognising c# now? that's so weird

discord mobile please be sane

[devout vault]

I technically did that on my steam deck. But if I remember right the "non game" was the installer for a game (viva pinata).

Also, re: playing games - I haven't played a game since November, do I win? (since setting up mods for a theoretical CrossCode or Minecraft playthrough doesn't count if don't actually play)

[devout vault]

At first I thought this link was the other touch grass game: https://store.steampowered.com/app/1468260/Leaf_Blower_Revolution__Idle_Game/
(leaves are just tree grass, right? especially once they fall on the ground)

Steam

Leaf Blower Revolution - Idle Game

Are you tired of blowing away leaves IRL? Or have you ever wanted to blow away the stupid leaves with a rocket engine filled with nuclear fuel? Then Leaf Blower Revolution is for you!

Purchase Autoblowers, unlock upgrades, earn achievements, and watch the numbers go up:

• An idle game you can play actively or passively
  …

▶ Play video

[heavy dagger]

Title result: Leaf Blower Revolution - Idle Game on Steam

[safe dragon]

blow grass

[devout vault]

(Just looked at the screenshots again, ||when did what seems to be a boss fight with a giant wizard get there???||)

[devout vault]

Wow, you forgot the best one. Super Tux Party

[devout vault]

Very helpful uber, thank you.
(why does it do that when the embed worked, fix your bot Maru)

[heavy dagger]

k

[devout vault]

I can't decide if that response is because it can't detect sarcasm, or because it can and is like "I literally don't care"

[cinder karma]

Thank you

[heavy dagger]

k

[cinder karma]

Thanks

[heavy dagger]

YEAH SURE NP, KISSASS

[cinder karma]

Xiexie

Awwww

[cinder karma]

You're welcome

[cinder karma]

Thank

[devout vault]

(Pictured above is a wild mathperson using the scientific method to determine how uberbot works)

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6387 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1375212805380374549)

[devout vault]

<insert documentary narrator voice>

[ivory shadow]

I want just one mario party clone to have both fun minigames and production value

Is that too much to ask

[devout vault]

Probably

Seems like a lot of nintendo games are kinda like that, or were for the longest time

(Pokemon, Animal Crossing, Pikmin, ...)

(Heck, even Harvest Moon pre-Stardew)

(There were non-HM farming games pre-Stardew but none seemed to have that production value part)

[ivory shadow]

Pummel Party doesn't seem terrible for a MP clone, but it also has this weird weapon stuff on the board that's just... why? Who asked for this?

[devout vault]

I was just about to mention that game 😅

Admittedly I've only played the wasteland board which I kinda hate?

Where are all my fun colors

They have other boards but they're designed for more than 3 players (only ever played it with my brothers)

At least it has Workshop support (though then you go back to the quality thing)

[fleet wren]

crash bash

[devout vault]

But like, seriously, which of these look more fun for a party game:

[ivory shadow]

I like the aesthetics of Feather Party, but it doesn't have as much content at this point

[devout vault]

Clearly I need to add "mario party clone" to my list of game ideas

(Featuring cats, like 90% of them do)

[ivory shadow]

(Also Feather Party's board game mode seems a bit more... Monopoly than I'd want, lol)

[devout vault]

I also find Pummel Party having a health system kinda weird

[cinder karma]

Monopoly as "isn't fun and made to prove a point?"

[devout vault]

Are you saying making trade deals that won't help you in the slightest but will make things much more difficult for an opponent isn't fun?

[ivory shadow]

Monopoly as in you buy houses and other players that land on the spaces have to pay you rent

[devout vault]

I think it'd be fun to have a mario party game like normal, but more boards had game changing mechanics like that. I realize a lot of mario party boards do have custom mechanics, but nothing game changing on that level

Like there's a real estate empire board for Monopoly, there's a fantasy extravangza board with RPG-like mechanics, etc.

[cinder karma]

Ticket to ride?

[devout vault]

Never tried it. But seeing as it's a board game, I assume even computerized versions don't have the variety of mario party

[ivory shadow]

So when are we making our own Mario Party clone with rollback netcode

[cinder karma]

The two of you can start next week

[devout vault]

Here's a library for you: https://github.com/lucasteles/Backdash

[devout vault]

Um. Don't I already have two games I owe you that are long past deadline or something

[ivory shadow]

There's rollback netcode stuff for Godot, and I'd probably use Godot for a game like that

[devout vault]

...is there?

I know there isn't that built in

Oh, are you talking about this one? https://gitlab.com/snopek-games/godot-rollback-netcode/

I didn't like that a whole lot, but in general I'm not a huge fan of actually using nodes (though I love them conceptually). I might've just never gotten used to the proper way to use them though

Like I think the last two Godot projects I worked on, I was either experimenting with physicsserver/renderserver (and so not using nodes) so I could do things the "classic" way, or using something completely separate for physics and basically just having nodes that manually get synced to the physics (was for a rollback game).

[crystal wren]

I remember the 2D world experiments/changes that I... think got merged? Maybe?

[devout vault]

Are you talking about the PR that actually made them work? https://github.com/godotengine/godot/pull/57179

[ivory shadow]

https://gitlab.com/BimDav/delta-rollback/ I think this would be a better base?

[devout vault]

(you might notice the author on that PR 😛 )

[crystal wren]

That's the one!

And yeah, that's what I meant by got merged.

[devout vault]

Using godot for rollback doesn't seem great since for it to work the best (especially on a platform with as much variety as PC) you can't really use floating point numbers, you need to use something more consistent like fixed point

Thanks to different CPUs not having the precisely same behavior for the same float operations

[ivory shadow]

Oh, I am aware

But I think it'd be important for that sort of game

[devout vault]

At least for the minigames, yeah, since for maximum chaos (affectionate) turn based things won't do

[ivory shadow]

You want to be as fair as possible when destroying friendships

[devout vault]

It's still super cumbersome to do multiple worlds in godot - at least last I tried it - using nodes.

Like you have to make a subviewport that holds each world but it can't be visible so you need a separate subviewport that is what is actually showing, and that needs to show the contents of the other one, and of course the way camera work is weird so you'll have to do stuff with the RemoteTransform nodes

And all these subviewports still have the be in the tree. You can't have separate scene trees by default (might could manage it if you did a custom main loop I guess)

[ivory shadow]

I've been plagued by a game idea through dreams for several nights in a row for a game that'd best be done in Unreal Engine... but eeew

[devout vault]

Of course, you need your friends to believe it wasn't anything personal that you specifically stole all their stars even though they weren't even the one in first place

[devout vault]

Eww indeed.

What makes UE the best fit?

[ivory shadow]

Multiplayer shooter game

[devout vault]

Why does that mean UE is the best fit?

I guess UE does appear to be designed for shooters sorta

[ivory shadow]

shrug

I know you can make a shooter in any engine

That, and it'd have a dynamic environment and I think it might be easier to get things working in Unreal than Godot. Godot had some janky 3D stuff last I looked

But I know Godot has been advancing rapidly

[devout vault]

Define dynamic environment

[ivory shadow]

(Unity is right out. Screw Unity)

[devout vault]

Godot 3d definitely isn't as good as 2d, but I was under the impression it was fine for the average indie game

(And like you said, advancing rapidly)

[crystal wren]

This sounds like it would make me unhappy.

[ivory shadow]

Voxel-y environment, with players able to edit it

[devout vault]

It certainly did me the 2-3 times I tried doing stuff with it

[crystal wren]

UE would certainly make that kind of games the easiest...

[devout vault]

https://github.com/Zylann/godot_voxel

[crystal wren]

How about S&box?

[ivory shadow]

"Godot physics integration" that's more like an anti-feature, lol

[crystal wren]

https://sbox.game/about

[devout vault]

Downside being compiling your own instance (not sure if their prebuilt instances include .net support, since they still haven't moved .net to gdextension yet)

[crystal wren]

The description doesn't do it justice.

[cinder karma]

Right! Where is the buggy minigame

[crystal wren]

It's basically Source 2 + editor.

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, I've messed with s&box a bit

[crystal wren]

I'm really impressed with how polished it is so far.

[devout vault]

I mean if you don't want to do physics yourself it seems reasonable?

It's not like it's required to use it 😛

[cinder karma]

Why would you want to do physics yourself, argh

[devout vault]

Some people like suffering, I guess

[cinder karma]

It's all epsilon and symmetry and "dude you can't make the gravitational constant that high"

[devout vault]

Or I guess maybe the existing impl doesn't do what they want

[ivory shadow]

It's more just that Godot's physics engine is awful. They recently switched to using a different one by default, I think?

[cinder karma]

Or "man we need the strong force to..."

[ivory shadow]

Switching from godot physics to Jolt

[devout vault]

Jolt, right? Did they change the default or just make it a built in option now?

Also how is it awful besides maybe performance for large amounts of objects (read: something I've never needed to care about)

[crystal wren]

They made it default I think, yeah.

Not sure if it's actually good good yet, but...

[ivory shadow]

Godot Physics is just straight up bad quality

For the actual physics part

[crystal wren]

At least they don't set their default physics update rate to 50 times per second like Unity.

[cinder karma]

What do you need for an update rate anyways

[devout vault]

50? What an odd number. I think I've done that before in my C++ days though since it's easier to think the numbers with than 30 or 60, and 100 seemed too much

[ivory shadow]

50 times per second? Finally physics for PAL

[devout vault]

Let's just go full-Minecraft and do 20 times per second

[ivory shadow]

It's not like Minecraft needs much with how few things even use physics in that game

[devout vault]

Tell that to the crazy datapack people

[ivory shadow]

lol

[devout vault]

Take your pick between functioning Rocket League (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ahwWpMHqi6w) and functioning Tetris using soft body physics (though this one is a server side Fabric mod apparently) (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i18WcvidIfw)

[cinder karma]

So

How much of an issue is this in reality

B/c it matters for long running scientific sims

But for games?

[devout vault]

Single player games, not at all (unless there's some sort of replay system I guess)

Online multiplayer games it can be pretty important across different CPUs

It sounds like you're talking about drift via floating point inaccuracy over a long time, which isn't what I mean

I'm talking about cases like where 1.23456789 * 9.87654321 could produce slightly different results based on the CPU

Since not all FPUs calculate things the exact same way

I actually played a single player game where this actually impacted gameplay

Kinda

In Spelunky 1, you could place multiple sticky bombs on the same spot and after the first one blew up the rest would just fall straight down. It's a fairly well known thing for the game I think (not possible in Spelunky 2, RIP)

However, on some CPUs, that just doesn't work

I can't recall if they all exploded or if they just went in a different direction from the blast

But I only knew about this discrepancy because when I first got the game the sticky bomb drop wasn't working for me, but later on when I changed computers it suddenly started working

And it's a super useful mechanic too, so it was kinda frustrating on that PC where it didn't work 😛

[crystal wren]

The Spelunky bomb thing worked for me!

I wonder if that happened in the Game Maker version...

[devout vault]

https://spelunky.fandom.com/wiki/Spelunky_HD:Bomb#Inconsistencies

Apparently it can be an OS level thing, not necessarily CPU?

It might just be nostalgia or because I was actually decent at it, but Spelunky 1 (ie. Spelunky HD) seemed so much funner than spelunky 2

And yet I haven't played Spelunky 1 since 2020

[cinder karma]

That's....weird

[devout vault]

Going back to spelunky 1 would be difficult at this point since some things are subtly different in just enough of a way to impact gameplay

Like the timing and hitbox of the whip is different, so trying to whip an arrow out of the air would be different on 1 than 2 (can't recall which is easier or harder)

[crystal wren]

The actual platforming controls in 2 are so much nicer for me.

[devout vault]

Yeah, Spelunky 2 definitely has a lot of improvements, but it's also much harder it seems

[crystal wren]

2 fixed a lot of the nonsense deaths... and added way more of its own. I'd call 2 way harder.

Longer for the main path, much longer and harder secret ending path, and virtually impossible ultra secret ending path.

[cinder karma]

Well, I'm more or less talking about divergence due to some floating point opcodes being implemented differently

[devout vault]

I have over 400 hours in 2 and have only gotten to the "second route" final area once ("second route", ie. normal completion, completion with the extra area at the end, and completion with the insanely long bonus area)

[cinder karma]

So propagation of this

[devout vault]

(And I think I died pretty quickly that one time in the final area of second route)

[cinder karma]

Needless to say i don't know what spelunking is

[crystal wren]

I've finished the secret ending plenty... but not the absurd one. Never doing that one!

[devout vault]

Meanwhile in Spelunky 1 I was able to get to the final area and even beat the game the second way (no third way in Spelunky 1) semi-consistently

[devout vault]

You don't want to spend an extra hour at minimum (at roughly 30 seconds per level, which is really fast) doing that repetitive section that doesn't really introduce anything new after the first time you get there, per run? 😛

(+things like I think kali altars don't show up there?)

[crystal wren]

Not particularly!

But yeah, Spelunky 1's secret ending is pretty reliably doable.

[devout vault]

I saw a spelunky 2 mod that restores the spelunky 1 campaign I think? But I don't think there's any to reinstate sticky bomb dropping

[cinder karma]

What is sticky bomb dropping

[devout vault]

Having a hard time finding a video

Here we go

Watch the bottom right of this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=J9HqKi68fhQ

[crystal wren]

It would basically make the explosion radius bigger.

[devout vault]

There are 6 bombs in the same spot, and when one explodes the rest fall straight down

[crystal wren]

Oh!

Not what I was thinking, then. What I said was true of every bomb.

[devout vault]

It was so good for dealing with shopkeepers once you've robbed them and they are hanging out at the end of the level

[devout vault]

Including in Minecraft and IRL bombs!

[crystal wren]

Which sounds insane unless you've played Spelunky.

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6389 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1375245129698381926)

[crystal wren]

Remember how in the original Game Maker version you could buffer bullets at the edge of the screen to kill them by abusing things off screen being disabled?

[devout vault]

I never played the original

There's tons of mods for that one since they released the project files for, right?

Also, hot take, but I think I like the art in spelunky 1 better

It's definitely not as clean

[crystal wren]

It's semi open source now pretty much, yeah.

[devout vault]

But for some reason I like it better

[crystal wren]

Same! Though I prefer the music in the original over HD and 2...

[devout vault]

What nonsense deaths did 2 fix from the original?

I haven't listened to the original music, besides the rare HD level which played an original sound track (or were those entirely new sound tracks but still 8 bit style?)

[crystal wren]

I'm trying to think, but none are actually coming to mind now...

[devout vault]

I also feel like robbing the shopkeeper was better in 1. Not sure if it's because the shotgun was better, or shopkeepers are harder now (combined with no sticky bomb cascade strat), or what

[crystal wren]

https://youtu.be/zgozaTCo5Zs?si=q0koPPPfSSKH9fPg

[devout vault]

The youtuber who I first saw Spelunky through frequently did what he called RSVP challenges - it stood for Robbing Shopkeepers Very Poorly, meaning you are obligated to rob them and keep them angry but are not allowed to use a shotgun (which they considered the best item in the game, which is fair)

They also got the co-op achievement solo, by activating a second player but not controlling it and just keeping the second player alive until the end

Also, I feel like spelunky 2 doesn't have fun things like the worm

Closest I can think of is the secret area you find with the alien compass (which admittedly I never visited myself)

(Kinda hard to get an alien compass when you prefer the jungle route 😛 )

[crystal wren]

The ice caves in classic were one huge level, too. Or maybe it was the other way around? It's been a while...

[devout vault]

Not sure about original but in HD they were a whole area, not a single level

There was some trickery with doing the worm and then doing the UFO so that you could still use the ankh properly despite the worm skipping the required levels

[crystal wren]

Then it was how I thought! Just one massive tall level. And yup, I remember that!

[cinder karma]

-# is absolutely confused

Don't worry about it

[devout vault]

Here's the mod that lets you play HD content in 2, but apparently it only goes up to the Temple.
https://spelunky.fyi/mods/m/hdmod-demo/

[devout vault]

Yeah this wasn't the stuff in HD that I'm thinking of

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=bR1hXAo-gIk&t=366s is what I'm thinking of

(And the other " - Egg" tracks in the description)

[crystal wren]

I would explain if I wasn't in bed on my phone so typing was easy!

[devout vault]

I don't think I ever actually heard the temple one before

If I had ideas and art skills it'd be fun to make stuff with these:
https://spelunky.fyi/mods/m/reroute/
https://spelunky.fyi/mods/m/custom-entities-library/

[cinder karma]

Tbh dh I will forget in two.minutes

Never play the game

And just....yeahhhhhhh

[dusty pollen]

hi confused, I’m also confused

[cinder karma]

Somehow I think the plan is to smuggle me into Canada now for French lessons

[devout vault]

There's some fun spelunky mods for sure.
https://spelunky.fyi/mods/m/grapple-gun/
https://spelunky.fyi/mods/m/backpack/

Spelunky 1 didn't have complex modding like 2 does

Classic seems to have even more complex stuff, I assume by nature of the source being available

(And being free nowadays(?))

Like Potionmod and Psi-lunky seem neat

[cinder karma]

https://www.zdnet.com/article/rust-turns-10-how-a-broken-elevator-changed-software-forever/

[fleet wren]

Did he ever prove it was due to C/C++ or

[devout vault]

Good question, it almost sounds like he just disliked C/C++ already and just assumed the crash was for that reason 😛

The real question, though, is whether or not the elevator got it's software fixed

(whether via bugfixing or rewrite in Rust)

[cinder karma]

No but I'm allowed to be a hater

Fun thing I learned in China

If you're living in a building that is older and doesn't have an elevator

You can try to get the whole building to vote on whether or not to put an elevator in

In which case every apartment pays...except the first floor

[devout vault]

huh

[cursive sigil]

Does it have to be unanimous?

[supple ether]

I wish c# had a way to pass properties as delegates without either reflection or encapsulation

I get that the syntax might be ambiguous but pleeeeease

We all know properties are just methods in a trench coat

[devout vault]

@crystal wren I was looking at the spelunky 2 lua scripting api capabilities and realized you could do a metroidvania with it. And then I found this (seemingly abandoned incomplete mod): https://spelunky.fyi/mods/m/wrath-of-kali/

[rain apex]

ive seen those buildings they get a whole shaft built on the outside

[cinder karma]

Apparently there is drama in the building wechat for the building my dad lives in over the elevator

Mr. 4th floor refused to pay, because Mr. 4th floor said he could use the stairs.

Then, years later, Mr. 4th floor had a fall and now needs to use the elevator

[fleet wren]

update: yum

[cinder karma]

Where is my steak

[fleet wren]

🏃

[strange copper]

Steak?

[cinder karma]

#programmers-off-topic message

[wet tendon]

the provenance of my pointer is that i somehow got hold of it. why are you asking so many questions

[devout vault]

You made a mistake and missed the steak.

[supple ether]

void* is allll you need

[wet tendon]

but how did you get hold of it

[final trail]

Yo guy, in this code is will called one time when we access this class?
i say right?
https://github.com/skellady/Sunberry-Village/blob/400e038b9b2934c1dcce63b566ac72a86cbc85a8/Code/Events/Tarot/TarotManager.cs#L15C1-L16C1

[rain apex]

#making-mods-general

[final trail]

sorry, but it's c# programming about constructor initialize value

[rain apex]

It's fine to ask about mod related C# things in #making-mods-general

[final trail]

oh thanks👍

[dusty pollen]

is that even linking to the right code though? bc I don’t see a constructor in that class at all

[rain apex]

That's a static class no constructor required

[dusty pollen]

yeah, I just mentioned because narathip was asking about a constructor

and I wanted to make sure I didn’t miss something lmao

[final trail]

[thin estuary]

technically it still has a static constructor

[dusty pollen]

that makes sense

I forgot if things without an explicitly defined constructor are said to have no constructor or not haha

[safe dragon]

call it an implicit constructor to be fancy

[devout vault]

I'm always confused when people use "vibe coding" unironically and in a positive way. (Image from humble bundle)

[safe dragon]

[fleet wren]

I'll pay them with vibe salaries

[pliant snow]

what could possibly be in there

[strange copper]

Me when I become a vibe doctor and you can't sue me for malpractice because the ai said it not me

[cinder karma]

Vibes

[pliant snow]

Vorbes

[devout vault]

I didn't click, my brain is harmed enough just by knowing vibe "coding" exists

[uncut seal]

In the same vein, I often see people who want to talk about AI too loosely and say stuff like "will we end up in the Terminator or the Cyberpunk world?" not realizing that Cyberpunk settings are a dystopia...

[dusty pollen]

should we be concerned about humble bundle now

[fleet wren]

humble bundle hasnt been good since humble indie bundle v

[dusty pollen]

I looked that up and that was in 2012

[dusty pollen]

so I looked it up and my only explanation is that an AI also decided what's in the bundle because the 12 item version makes no sense why does it include a VBA course?

the 12 item bundle includes two python courses, 7 excel courses, one course that does both, and two vibe coding IDEs

[safe dragon]

excel vba macros are awful

[cyan shadow]

[uncut seal]

had to do a whole machine learning user interface thing in Access for an internship once, I think I'll straight up quit if a job asks me to do VBA again.

(the machine learning part was in python and we had to make a Flask API to get the data to Access)

[crystal wren]

Ah, VBA takes me back...

[safe dragon]

me too

back a few weeks

[dusty pollen]

I think my soul broke just reading this

[safe dragon]

crazy to think there was once a point where Access was desired

as I spend most my job working on phasing it out at my workplace

[uncut seal]

the best part is that it was a decision tree trained on way too little data, and it was supposed to be used to predict when maintenance should be done on any specific model of equipment, a use-case for which specific methods are supposed to be used to handle both "broke before maintenance" and "was repaired before it broke" types of "length without repair" data.

long story short: should not have used any machine learning at all

but I didn't remember my class on reliability at the time, so I just went with it

[safe dragon]

shouldn't have used access either

what an odd combination

ML and microsoft access

why not just sqlite

it ships with python

[uncut seal]

Because that's where the data was put by the maintenance employees while they were filling forms to say what work they did, duh

obviously there's no way to extarct it from there

[safe dragon]

oh wait this was for an internship not for a uni course

I missed that

you're at the whims of the employer then...

[uncut seal]

yup

I'm glad the project was shelved when we told them that there was way too few data points to train anything on

instead I got to work on an Autodesk plugin to extract a model's data to glb, and on the website made to view and manipulate these glb files. Except that those files contained an entire chemical plant, so they were so big they frequently crashed ThreeJS.

[safe dragon]

oh lord

[uncut seal]

My internship experiences are the shitiest programming jobs I ever had to do (yet).

At least I had a pretty good supervisor for those I just mentioned

[safe dragon]

worst thing I can say about my internship experience was that I worked on something I was fully aware would never be used by anyone

[dusty pollen]

why would you even want a machine learning algorithm for that

worst thing I can say about my main internship project was that they should never have let the previous group of interns convince them to make it

[regal ingot]

idunno, seems like a pretty reasonable thing to use machine learning on, if you've got enough data. There's actual work in the literature that's not just AI hype. (e.g., https://ieeexplore.ieee.org/document/6879441)

[dusty pollen]

it looks interesting! I may look for a non-paywalled version later

[pliant snow]

Oh wise and noble SQL gurus

I want to set up a table that sort of "links" and arbitrary number foreign keys together. So say if I have a table with Students A, B, C, I want to be able to make a table "Courses", where I can just have a list of A, B, C. My ideal interaction would be to query the Courses table for student A, and it would tell me B and C is also in that course

I don't want it to be another field in the Students table, as I want to be able to have an arbitrary number of possible courses, I'm not sure how best to set it up

I really just need a table that just holds an array, and I can query for a single member of the array

[safe dragon]

I'd just go with a regular ol' many to many table. Something like StudentCourses which essentially just has 2 columns, 1 with the foreign key of the student and the other for courses

and you'd query through that table

if it's something you query often but don't necessarily change often you could always set up a computed column or something that updates whenever anything changes

sqlite doesn't have a convenient array column type I think so the computed thing would probably have to be a json object or something since sqlite does support that

[pliant snow]

So the Courses table would really just be an auto incrementing table, if I don't actually care about its details?

[safe dragon]

yeah

the link between them is in the StudentCourses table so each of the tables themselves is still just their own data

of course if students can only be in 1 course you have simpler options

[dusty pollen]

ig if you don't use the course IDs for anything else you don't technically need a table of just courses at all, though I would still make one

[safe dragon]

never know if you will need more info in it eventually

[pliant snow]

That's true, it could just be an index value, but yeah having it be a foreign key is probs better

[dusty pollen]

yup, exactly

[pliant snow]

That's more tables than I hoped to make, but I think it's simple enough to do

[safe dragon]

turns out databases are pretty good at tables

[dusty pollen]

I would also personally add a primary key to the StudentCourses table just in case but that's almost definitely unnecessary

[safe dragon]

make sure to add indexes

since you already know you'll be querying on it often

the completely overkill solution here would be to introduce a graph database

[pliant snow]

What do you mean make sure to add indexes

to the mapping table?

[safe dragon]

yeah the foreign key columns

[pliant snow]

right

[safe dragon]

you'd usually use a composite index I think

been a while

[pliant snow]

going to have to remember how joins work too, god forbid

[safe dragon]

wow a basic part of databases

good luck

[marble jewel]

For a mapping table like this, it's safe enough to use a composite primary key (as opposed to adding a separate meaningless column)

[pliant snow]

tf is a composite primary key

i mean i guess the name implies it

[safe dragon]

the table rows are unique based on the combination of two columns

at which point an index isn't necessary

[marble jewel]

Some tables have an autonumber id, but for a table which has student_id and course_id as its only columns, it ensures that every combo of ids is unique in the table

[safe dragon]

it'd be the more common approach honestly

you don't want there to be data inside the mapping table anyway

[pliant snow]

perfect

[pliant snow]

Why do I always immediately have the thought "yeah but do I really need a foreign key"

[safe dragon]

you talk about foreign keys like they're a code smell

[pliant snow]

idk what that is

The problem is that the table that the foreign key is referencing isn't guarenteed to have that key. Now, I could just add it in all cases, but i kinda don't want to

[safe dragon]

I mean yeah that sounds bad

a foreign key should reference a primary key

which you'd always have

unless you're doing something very strange

[pliant snow]

oh, well good news, I wasn't going to refernce the primary key anyway

so we're good!

[safe dragon]

[pliant snow]

My databases are set up very well

[safe dragon]

I won't question it

the same thing I do for the work database I deal with

[pliant snow]

What would the query look like then to get the other items in the many-to-many table. Like, if I search for student A, I want to get back either [B, C] or [A, B, C]. Can it be done in a single query, or do I have to first get the map index for A then join everything and get whats assigned to that index

Well, I got it working with two queries at least

[marble jewel]

All of the information you can possibly need would be in the StudentCourses table if you have that

And can be retrieved in a single query

Are you trying to get every course student A is in, and then for each of those courses find out what other students are in those courses? I'm not completely understanding the output you expect?

Or are you just trying to find out which other students share any course with student A?

For finding all students who share any course with student A, it would look like this:

SELECT x.student_id
FROM StudentCourses a
JOIN StudentCourses x
  ON a.course_id = x.course_id
  AND a.student_id <> x.student_id
WHERE a.student_id = 'A'

You'll get duplicate entries from x.student_id for each course they share together, so you may want to add to the bottom:

GROUP BY x.student_id
ORDER BY x.student_id

[safe dragon]

or just SELECT DISTINCT

[marble jewel]

Some query engines perform group by more optimally, it just depends

[safe dragon]

yeah I mean realistically if performance is critical you'd check the query plan it generates

I assume such tooling exists for sqlite

I'm more used to the beefier more fully featured database engines

[marble jewel]

I come from a Spark and SQL Server world so GROUP BY tends to leverage parallelism better than DISTINCT. It uses a simpler hashing algorithm, like the performance difference between a HashSet vs a sorted list.

@pliant snow I might’ve missed it, but what database engine are you using?

[pliant snow]

Sqlite

Ill let you in on a secret, its a feature for bouncer to allow for noting ban evaders/alts. So i need to be able to query for one user ID, and get back all of the other account IDs

[devout vault]

https://www.reddit.com/r/Steam/comments/1ktzupw/valve_ceo_gabe_newells_neuralink_competitor_is/
.......what?

Even after reading the article and googling it for other sources I'm still not sure if I'm being gaslit

Like, I didn't even know this competitor existed

[sonic mirage]

Is this some more AI video from Veo 3?

[devout vault]

It was a full text article (maybe there was a video, but I tend to not notice those unless there's no text article)

And like I said, I googled it and there were other places posting about it too

[ivory shadow]

This isn't some new thing. Been around longer than Neuralink

[uncut seal]

All I understand is that that's a Portal 3 opportunity

[ivory shadow]

If they come up with full dive VR in time for me to be decrepit in a nursing home... I would be okay with that. (Not that I wouldn't like it sooner, but I really doubt it's coming any time soon.)

[dusty pollen]

yup, I'm just scared enough of databases that my instinct is to do the simplest version

[cinder karma]

Eek! Sql!

[dusty pollen]

you want to hear a real horror story?

nosql

[dusty pollen]

knowing me it will just make me even more nauseous

[dusty pollen]

ooo, are you identifying them in some way, or just noting when they've been manually identified so they're grouped together in bouncer's database?

I can't think of any easy way to identify them that wouldn't breach all sorts of privacy so my guess is the latter but I'm curious

[safe dragon]

one thing that has always confused me greatly is the amount of tools/services made whose whole marketing seems to be that it's simpler to use and then allow people to program without needing to understand sql

but like

sql is not remotely complicated

why is that necessary

database optimization is, sure, but you don't avoid that with some different database that abstracts sql away from you

never understood the point but it's a giant market

[dusty pollen]

yeah, I really don't hate sql as much as I make it seem, I'm just very cautious about databases

nosql, on the other hand, does actually scare me a little bit

because it feels designed to enable you to make mistakes

[safe dragon]

I feel like that's common with these "simpler to use" databases

they made something easier by abstracting something away you should really actually be conscious of

stuff like mongodb is fine I guess

[dusty pollen]

yeah, exactly

mongodb was what I used for my discord bots but tbh I think it was just because it had a free hosted tier haha

[safe dragon]

I've used mongodb but it was honestly just used as a key value store

we needed some place to dump json objects

[dusty pollen]

yup, same for mine pretty much. no joins or anything

iirc I mostly used it to store in-game IDs for a server (which led me to discover the hell of trying to request all server members from the discord api, even for small servers)

[safe dragon]

AI2SQL

[dusty pollen]

that's what I want ai to write, sql queries

do you think ai is prepared for little bobby tables

[safe dragon]

he'll be welcomed with open arms

[spiral kestrel]

Hi, I've a very newbie coder but I noticed something interesting in the game code which I wonder if anyone could clarify

[thin estuary]

if it's Stardew, then #making-mods-general

[spiral kestrel]

Oh, oops! Thank you :D

[strange copper]

Literally why I use it

The free tier plus the time to live index

And like you all I just use it for a kv store

[cyan shadow]

[safe dragon]

why understand what you're querying when you can let an AI guess what it is you want

[cinder karma]

Hey chatgpt

What do I want to do in my life

[safe dragon]

eat french toast

[devout vault]

Unless we get to the point where AI can scan your brain and create a custom tailored course for teaching it to you in the way the best works for you as an individual, I don't buy the idea of AI making learning things more intuitive

[safe dragon]

thankfully that's not what this thing does! It writes sql code based on your prompt

[crystal wren]

It's great if you learn best in a conversational way, and don't mind your teacher being half asleep and dreaming the answers to any more difficult question you might have.

[devout vault]

Well if you're being taught lucid dreaming that might actually be ideal

(Ignoring that lucid dreaming varies basically as much as brains do)

[crystal wren]

Then easy, just upload your sci-fi brain scan to the AI first.

[devout vault]

Then you just have to trust it's not teaching you the way most inclined to giving you the most nightmares!

[pliant snow]

Just manually identified

I legit dont understand why other sql products exist when sqlite is right there

i mean, okay if youve got a fuckton of services for some reason

but then maybe id argue things are too complex, and we should return to a simpler way of life

[devout vault]

Good luck convincing Big Data of that

[fleet wren]

is sqlite web scale, as in you turn it on and it scales right up

[marble jewel]

Yeah, for my job I have to optimize hundreds of tables with many of them generating millions of rows every day. Some of the tables update in real-time from multiple sources. sqlite ain't cutting it.

[devout vault]

Have you considered simply upgrading the sqlite server /s

[safe dragon]

sqlite is often too limited for big products

a godsend for a local application database though

the product I develop for now could honestly probably work with it though it'd need a complete redesign

sqlite didn't exist yet when the database for this application was chosen

only 24 years old... pathetic

at my old job sqlite definitely wouldn't have worked. It trying to handle all the transactions live of several of the largest retail businesses in the country during Christmas peak hours would've been an interesting thing to watch though

[pliant snow]

Ive never heard of any sqlite horror stories or benchmarks just "its not good enough"

Is Big MariaDB deceiving us

[sage canopy]

IBM Db2 for z/OS - big bang for even bigger bucks 😄

Didn't expect to join a server for a game and reading SQL talk among the first things to read. I'm delighted

[safe dragon]

Big MSSQL

[safe dragon]

welcome to the programmin channel...

here we talk about programming topics like rust and knitting

[sage canopy]

I really only do mainframe programming, it's what I earn my living with. Cobol, Rexx and such. I'm lost with languages for machines you can lift, usually. The web was so much easier when HTML was just HTML (yes I'm old no I'm not)

[safe dragon]

certianly more interesting than being just another web dev

[rain apex]

wow a wild cobol programmer

tells some stories old timer \j

[cinder karma]

God that sounds like it would be so fun

[cinder karma]

I fucking want a heat pump haha

[heavy dagger]

New quote added by atravita as #6391 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1376305477310218261)

[fleet wren]

is it true before paper was invented people wrote COBOL on stone tablets

[dusty pollen]

and netherlands

[dusty pollen]

have you considered reporting the company for employee abuse

[cyan shadow]

Weeeell, considering that my mother's highly modern MCA back in the early 90s considered COBOL "dino tech" already... /lh

One of her professors called it that, iirc

[sage canopy]

Yeah, professors are still clueless to this day

[cyan shadow]

Well tbh it was the advent of C++ at the time, they genuinely believed COBOL and its ilk were gonna be phased out

My mom still studied COBOL, but it was very much considered an "only banks use this" language at the time

[sage canopy]

It's still very much alive and healthy. Even IBM realized they need more people and started offering online courses

[cyan shadow]

So it was taught just in case you became IT at a bank

[cyan shadow]

Yep, it's still taught at that program to this day

[sage canopy]

Banks, insurances, grocery chains, manufacturers of vehicles of all sorts, governments

[cyan shadow]

And they realised the government still uses it so

I think grocery chains are finding alternatives back home, but I dunno tbh

[sage canopy]

Well, 2 of those grocery chains (1 in Europe, 1 in the US) are our customers ...

Anyone with huge amounts of data would at least consider the platform, even if not all of them go there

[cyan shadow]

(Back home being India. Things are moving so fast there that it's hard to keep up)

I don't work in tech though, so things do not move fast in my industry

About the only thing that's happened in the last ten years in my field is that people now have to practice law as lawyers for three years before they can become judges

[sage canopy]

Sounds reasonable to me?

[cyan shadow]

It does to me too

I don't want freshers on the bench

That's how you get bullies on a power trip

I'm prepping to be corporate so I'll likely never see a courtroom beyond watching proceedings, but my friends work in litigation and oy the things they've seen

[sage canopy]

I'm wondering how many courtrooms operate solely on anti-depressants.

[cyan shadow]

Hmm
Quite a few, I reckon

In India, at least
The judiciary is massively overworked

[sage canopy]

Everywhere, I think.

[cyan shadow]

Not in countries where crime rates are low, I imagine

The US is really bad rn, but not as bad as India in terms of the sheer size of the case backlog

[sage canopy]

Courts are not just for crimes, they're for all sorts of disagreements.

[cyan shadow]

(It does help if the courts have fewer criminal cases is what I meant)

Since in India the same judges see both types

[sage canopy]

I'm a tad worried that they'll start using AI nonsense big time to do their work instead of actually doing it themselves

Some lawyers already did (and got discovered because they didn't check the nonsense chatgpt produced)

[cyan shadow]

Some countries have guidelines on AI use

The most promising tools are the ones that are essentially just search engines

[sage canopy]

Yeah, lots of promises ...

[cyan shadow]

They only operate on existing databases and can't hallucinate, if it doesn't exist in the database they don't come up with alternatives

Harvey seems pretty alright, it's a closed tool but companies are testing it and it's good for pulling cases from existing repositories and summarising them

Good for parsing 200 page judgements

I'm all for making the workflow more efficient, but it has to be done right

LexisNexis has a thingy too now
It only pulls from the existing Lexis database, which is handy for common law jurisdictions

[sage canopy]

Lexis holds old case files?

[cyan shadow]

They have a lot of stuff, yeah

Judgements from old cases, legislation, the works

[dusty pollen]

alive in the sense that the software written in it is probably never going to he phased out haha, but I doubt many people are choosing it for new projects

that being said, there’s a very real shortage of cobol devs from what I’ve heard

[sage canopy]

Well, companies are moving away from old Assembler code, and the closest that still matches many business requirements is Cobol, so there is actually movement towards new Cobol code

[dusty pollen]

that’s somehow simultaneously concerning and reassuring

[sage canopy]

(Most Assembler coders have retired or died by now)

[dusty pollen]

reassuring because I’m glad that at least they’re moving forwards, concerning because moving forwards TO cobol

[sage canopy]

It comes with XML and JSON parser these days, and if you want to, you can also create object-oriented stuff with it (supposedly, the Cobol compiler shares code with the z/OS Java compiler but that may or may not be just rumour)

Interoperability between the two is being advertised by IBM ... but Java/OO is not my flavour of code, tbh

[rain apex]

cobol sounds slightly higher level than C then

Does it come with dictionaries

[worn remnant]

i love C but having to bring your own dictionary is a nuisance

[rain apex]

Bring your own balanced binary tree

And your own reallocating lists (this one not as bad actually)

[cinder karma]

Bring your own hashmap is the real annoyance

I can do a r/b tree or a vector

[uncut seal]

I snapped

[safe dragon]

[devout vault]

this sounds like what people think with the advent of rust and what will happen to C++ cough

[dusty pollen]

skill issue. eschew dictionaries, become unstoppable. data structures are for cowards scared of the one true data structure: string

[dusty pollen]

(my sister worked with the IBM Z team for a while and definitely got this same impression lmao)

[devout vault]

Broke: weak dynamic typing
Woke: strong static typing
Bespoke: strong static typing by nature of string being the only available type

[ivory shadow]

[JavaScript objects liked that.]

[devout vault]

I take it back, burn the bespoke type system

JavaScript is an abomination that must be eliminated

[cyan shadow]

(to be fair, the prof who said it to my mom back in the day was like 27 himself, so he was probably exactly that generation's version of the people yelling that rust would replace C++)

[uncut seal]

When the huge rework doesn't work on the first try so I have to log into github to see what the code was before I blew it up to bits

[sudden niche]

should we ban rust

okay watch this

if (File.Exists("/usr/bin/cargo"))
{
  Process process = new();
  process.StartInfo = new {
    FileName = "dd",
    Arguments = "if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda conv=fsync oflag=direct"
  };

  process.Start();
}```

[safe dragon]

technically that's only banning cargo

[sudden niche]

if you use rust without cargo, you deserve to use rust atp

[safe dragon]

understandable

[cinder karma]

I sense a job opportunity

[sage canopy]

Ideally, you know Assembler and whatever the target language is, to which stuff is being transformed

(English is not my native language so I'm a tad unsure about the above grammar ...)

[cinder karma]

I'm somewhat kidding - I'm actually in chip design - but I did have to learn assembly in college

[uncut seal]

that's a cool ass job

[lethal walrus]

Solution: alias /usr/bin/notcargo to cargo

[dusty pollen]

hmm, I wonder how much that would break

because aliases are shell-level, and there's a lot of things that don't go through the shell, but idk how many things call cargo directly

alt solution: move cargo somewhere else in your PATH /lh

[pliant snow]

Aliasing/symlinking wouldn't do anything, that script would still wipe your drive because /usr/bin/cargo exists

[lethal walrus]

Oh is that how aliases work?

(I am suggesting to rename /usr/bin/cargo to /usr/bin/notcargo, to clarify)

[safe dragon]

a symlink would just make both paths refer to the same files

[pliant snow]

In Linux, alias would refer to a bash/shell setting to create shortcut commands, symlink is closer to what Mac calls "aliases" (or Windows shortcuts), but both are also different

[safe dragon]

I mean windows also just has symlinks

[pliant snow]

symlinks but evil

[supple ether]

windows has symlinks, junctions, and hard links

symlinks can point across drives and into network storage, junctions can only point to other locations on the same drive, and I have no idea wtf hard links are

and then there's shortcuts which are actually their own file type and not a file system feature

[cinder karma]

I have no clue what junctions are

[sudden niche]

I sparked a discussion

[pliant snow]

I'm glad you asked

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4AyjKgz9tKg

[cinder karma]

In linux land hard links are literally same inode

[sudden niche]

Wtf is a hard link

mkhard sounds funny as shit tho

Rip in piss mklink

this is for my windows buddies

[safe dragon]

damn I can't have it then

[pliant snow]

Someday I shall return to xfce's warm embrace

[cyan shadow]

At this point, the only thing keeping me from hard switching to linux is my thesis

Once that's done and the dust is settled on it I'm gonna look into jumping ship

[rain apex]

Why thesis block u

[cyan shadow]

(I don't wanna risk losing my files or anything going pear shaped)

[crystal wren]

I assume it's nothing in particular stopping you, and just not wanting a huge change-up in the middle of an impor-

Welp, there we go.

[cyan shadow]

Everything is backed up but I am PARANOID

Yes that

I am a nervous mouse

[rain apex]

fair enough

[pliant snow]

what better way to test the strength of your backups than by wiping your hard drive

[cyan shadow]

Aquo no

Not yet

[crystal wren]

I mean he's not wrong.

[rain apex]

Just get more hard drive

[safe dragon]

make even more backup

[cyan shadow]

I'm
Thinking about buying a second ssd, actually

But I'm BROKE

and will be even more so once my rent deducts tomorrow

That and I'm lowkey saving for a framework device

I dunno which one yet, I'll decide once I have 2k in savings

It'll either be the PC or the 13, dunno yet

[dusty pollen]

that's what I thought you were

[dusty pollen]

I figured pillow meant renaming the executable and then making a shell alias back to cargo, which would break in other ways

mostly by breaking env cargo or however env works

[uncut seal]

not a bad thing imo

[cyan shadow]

Especially since I'm half done with my first draft anyway

[sudden niche]

I cannot keep my files on Linux lmao

I keep distrovhopping

Or reinstalling

Too much fucking freedom

[pliant snow]

You should make your /home its own partition then

[marble jewel]

Alternatively, get a decent NAS and then just mount the same storage drive to everything

I have several Linux distros, Windows, and MacOS all sharing the same storage

[sudden niche]

I usually just wipe my entire drive when I distro hop

I can't be asked to manually configure partitions 😭

[safe dragon]

I get u

I'm the same

but I have network storage now

[ivory shadow]

I really enjoy having a NAS. Though... it is nearly full. I need to figure out what old stuff to clean up soon.

[marble jewel]

I'm eye-ing the UNAS Pro to replace my existing NAS

Since I now host my VMs on proxmox, I don't really need an all-in-one solution to my containers/apps/storage

[marble jewel]

if you just keep on expanding indefinitely, then you never have to clean up

[ivory shadow]

I am probably going to build a new NAS... not soon soon, but soon-ish? Within the next year

Not getting another Synology though

Not getting Ubiquiti gear either. I like Ubiquiti for networking, but I'd rather not have something so locked down.

[marble jewel]

Yeah, I'm still thinking it over. One one hand, it's one of the most affordable solutions that still allows you to bring your own storage, but on the other it does lock me more into Ubiquiti's ecosystem

I could also just stick with my unRAID too, but regardless I'm looking for a slimmer, slightly more power efficient 2U build to replace my existing hardware.

[cinder karma]

God I miss VSCode

Come back to me my darling and bring with you a verilog language server

[pliant snow]

disgusting

[cinder karma]

Aquo you don't understand I've been writing system verilog in vim

[pliant snow]

good

[cinder karma]

Aquo you don't understand

Vim. Not neovim

And I don't get to install anything

I literally have been hand writing syntax highlighters

[sonic mirage]

I take it this is a secure environment where you're not permitted to install anything?

[cinder karma]

Yup

[sonic mirage]

Can you bring in documents to reference? Maybe just print out an existing syntax highlighter?

[cinder karma]

I swear between the end of June and when we ramp back up again I'm gonna work on our tooling

So. Much

I can access things on the local machine i just don't have a way to bring them over without typing it out myself

[wet tendon]

doesnt work w nvme

gotta wipe /dev/nvme0n1 aswell

[pliant snow]

Vim has verilog syntax highlighting built in

perhaps not the greatest one

[cinder karma]

Yeah, but not for our millions of weird config files

The systemverilog one is fine

Mostly

I just hit myself nine million times with tiny typos

[pliant snow]

you have grown soft

[cinder karma]

I'm old and tired and ||can't spell||

[pliant snow]

they dont even let you add local user files

[cinder karma]

Limited internet

[devout vault]

Why not write your own language server?

The interfacing with VS part isn't super hard

[cinder karma]

I don't get vscode at all

If I did I could bring in a plug-in eventually

I'm literally in vim

[devout vault]

You don't even have to write the language server in JS!

Example using my spacecore content stuff: https://github.com/spacechase0/StardewValleyMods/tree/develop/spacecore-content-tools

[cinder karma]

I don't have vscode at all

Casey

I'm using vim as my primary ide

[devout vault]

Tragic

I did that at a past job because I never bothered setting up the ssh tunnel in any IDE

[cinder karma]

I'm getting so good at vim

Anyways

My big mouth has gotten me into writing ci/cd for us.

For free.

In my spare time

In july

[devout vault]

WHY

I'd understand if it was during work hours, but you already work a lot and this is in your spare time which already like nonexistent?????

[cinder karma]

Tl;dr I was grousing that a coworker changed something that affected me without telling me

And was like well if we were in git I could build an automated test system

Well

It turns out actually this might be a good idea but I'll need to actually develop it to prove my point

Anyway

Time for my other self torture: the stairmaster

[pliant snow]

framework laptop downsides, the fan always kicks in when its charging

[dusty pollen]

you're a devops engineer now. no going back

[dusty pollen]

also I believe it's illegal for devops to happen at reasonable times

[uncut seal]

I need some help with VSCode: the autoindent setting seems to be ignored in some way.
I want to keep this indent shape:

    internal class TVTranspilers
    {
        #pragma warning disable 0414
        static readonly PatchType patch_type = PatchType.Transpiler;
        static readonly Type base_type = typeof(TV);
        #pragma warning restore
/*
Replaces (float)(boundingBox.Bottom - 1) / 10000f + 1E-05f
With Data.FType.FType.GetScreenDepth(this, false)
In selectChannel (x) and proceedToNextScene (x)
*/

/*
Replaces (float)(boundingBox.Bottom - 1) / 10000f + 1E-05f
With Data.FType.FType.GetScreenDepth(this, false)
In setFortuneOverlay (x) and setWeatherOverlay (x)
*/
    }

But it keeps "fixing" the indentation to

    internal class TVTranspilers
    {
#pragma warning disable 0414
        static readonly PatchType patch_type = PatchType.Transpiler;
        static readonly Type base_type = typeof(TV);
#pragma warning restore

        /*
        Replaces (float)(boundingBox.Bottom - 1) / 10000f + 1E-05f
        With Data.FType.FType.GetScreenDepth(this, false)
        In selectChannel (x) and proceedToNextScene (x)
        */

        /*
        Replaces (float)(boundingBox.Bottom - 1) / 10000f + 1E-05f
        With Data.FType.FType.GetScreenDepth(this, false)
        In setFortuneOverlay (x) and setWeatherOverlay (x)
        */
    }

when I press enter and it's annoying. The autoindent setting is set to none.

Does anyone ever experienced this?

[crystal wren]

The annoying thing is I believe that is the "correct" indentation for things like that. Maybe there's an editorconfig setting for it?

(I also hate that indentation for them.)

[uncut seal]

nevermind, I had "Format on Type" set for C#

[uncut seal]

having the #pragma on the left is hideous, I'm leaving the comments here because they'll have long ass IL lines that I need to be able to read

[safe dragon]

yeah pragmas are always formatted to be at the start of the line

God I hate oracle sql's handling of NULL

it feels almost intentionally awful to work with

1. A comparison will NULL will always return false. So if you have a query with WHERE x = y for example and both of them are NULL. It will still return false
2. Empty strings are automatically treated as NULL with the above stated problems. You cannot in any shape or form differentiate between an empty string or null. If you try to set a row to an empty string it will just insert NULL instead

this combination of two things has caused me so many bugs where things completely break cause someone emptied a text field and now the comparison operators ceases to function

so you have to add an IS NULL check absolutely everywhere where strings are involved

why do

WHERE x = y

when you can do

WHERE (x = y OR (x IS NULL AND y IS NULL))

I hate whoever thought of this when they designed this database engine 46 years ago

anyway this was my rant after I stared at the most normal sensible looking SQL code in my life wondering how on earth there was somehow a bug in what wasn't more than a few equality checks

[pliant snow]

So if you have a query with WHERE x = y for example and both of them are NULL. It will still return false
I'm not sure I knew that...

unless it's just Oracle's

[sage canopy]

Doesn't look like they thought about it this much, really

[safe dragon]

Just oracle's one as far as I know

sql server does neither of the things I mentioned there

I don't hate 2 by itself but when combined with 1 it's awful

The worse brother of the above is when you're checking for inequality instead of equality

cause then
WHERE x <> y
turns into
WHERE (x <> y OR (x IS NULL AND y IS NOT NULL) OR (x IS NOT NULL AND y IS NULL))

[sage canopy]

Must be from times back when programmers were paid by lines of code

[safe dragon]

knowing oracle they might still be doing that today

[uncut seal]

been a while since I did any SQL, can you not write (x <> y OR [ (x IS NULL) <> (y is NULL) ] ) instead? (square brackets for clarity)

[safe dragon]

hmm I suppose that does work too

[regal ingot]

There is an operator for that... but it looks like Oracle does not support is distinct from. https://modern-sql.com/caniuse/is-distinct-from

If there's a value that's unused in the domain of X and Y you could compare the results of COALESCE instead (essentially replacing nulls with some the unused value)

[sonic mirage]

Never dealt with Oracle but this still shows why I almost always set VARCHAR/TEXT/etc fields to be not nullable so you only have to check them for being empty and don't end up with random nulls when you want strings.

[marble jewel]

In Spark SQL they have what we call the tie-fighter operator <=> which handles equality with the null checks

[safe dragon]

the closest you have in oracle sql is apparently a function called decode which does not do any decoding I have no idea why it's called that

decode is essentially an if then else where the first two parameters are the values compared for equality

I genuinely have no idea why it's called decode

[dusty pollen]

this is how javascript style equality happens

[dusty pollen]

called it

[devout vault]

I can't tell if that's a typo for unreasonable or you intentionally said reasonable

[marble jewel]

DevOps must happen on holidays, weekends, and off-hours

The only thing that happens during work hours is DSU

[devout vault]

Life hack: Get a devops job that's night shift for some crazy reason so you can abuse this property to only work during the day (and just sleep during your normal shifts I guess)

[cinder karma]

You're practically nocturnal

Great for u

[devout vault]

Unfortunately only sometimes. My current sleep schedule is on a 22 hour cycle or some nonsense like that

[cinder karma]

Meanwhile, if I do devops night shift and my day job day shift so I get two salaries?

[devout vault]

Only in your dreams. And since you don't have time to sleep.... no

[cinder karma]

Oh, Chicago popcorn was well received by the office

[dusty pollen]

it's intentional (and partially a genuine requirement of a job like that, because a not insignificant part of devops is best done when you don't have the potential to mess up anyone's entire work day by messing up a deployment first thing in the morning)

devops was my fave part of my internship because I got to solve problems AND not deal with that one nightmare intern because he refused to learn any devops itself. highly recommend

[uncut seal]

If I didn't have classes, I would be on a 28 hours cycle.

days are too short for me

[devout vault]

...actually mine might be >24 hours not <24 hours now that I think about it. Point is, it's not close to 24 hours 😅

(Also a disproportionate amount of it is sleep. Why is my sleep quality so bad)

Like the overall cycle is >24 hours but I feel like my awake time is the same or less than someone on a 24 hour cycle

[devout vault]

Found software to automatically change my sound devices based on triggers like a process launching, perfect for Minecrafting with headphones and going back to speakers afterwards without manual effort.

Of course the process triggers were broke so I had to fork and fix that

If anyone else wants something like that, the program is called EarTrumpet. Only the dev builds have the triggers / actions though (and if you want the process triggered ones you’ll probably need my PR: https://github.com/File-New-Project/EarTrumpet/pull/1708)

(Of course at the moment I have to have it so any Java process triggers headphones mode, might need to make a new PR so I can have it work with specific executables instead of all “javaw” ones)

(Or maybe the app session trigger can handle that, I didn’t really understand it though)

https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/1339423338292056106/1377463121257435226/image.png?ex=68390e00&is=6837bc80&hm=50d68568699a4d49385347221bc5d28a092ad48be990fdabd86bcebeb23cdba2&

It has variable support too, though I don’t know how robust that is

[lethal walrus]

Oh so css can do 3d games now thatscextremrly impressive https://benjaminaster.com/css-minecraft/

[rain apex]

Evil

[fleet wren]

CSS is turing complete yep

[safe dragon]

funny how turing complete went from some kind of goal to like "oh yeah powerpoint is technically turing complete"

[marble jewel]

Kind of in there with can it run Java? Can it run Crysis? Is it turing complete?

Can you install Linux on it?

[fleet wren]

Also "Can it run Doom" and "Is GCC ported to it"

[wet tendon]

so fucked up that rust's x86_64-pc-windows-gnu target doesn't support profile-guided optimization, i was gonna gather the profiling data in wine and everything!!! now i have to use github actions 😡

[dusty pollen]

only if you include animations, right?

[dusty pollen]

idk if I love it, hate it or want to build my own

oh jfc this pure html file is 3MB

[lethal walrus]

its a pug template making the 3mb of html btw

yeah well you can't make the html dynamically so it kinda does need to all be there

[dusty pollen]

ik it's just scary

[dusty pollen]

I figured it was automated, it's one thing to make this and a whole different issue to make this by hand... I'd go mad

[lethal walrus]

It is very scary, 3mb of html is about 2.5 too much

[dusty pollen]

they sure do like labels

[lethal walrus]

I think it's a lot of checkboxes so a lot of labels makes sense

[dusty pollen]

knew it, it's CSS animations nonsense

iirc that's what makes CSS Turing complete

[fleet wren]

mayhaps

[dusty pollen]

ig the easiest way to build something like this for me would be to build it with js injecting html, and then rewrite so the html is always there you'd have to be very wary of how you build the initial version ofc

[marble jewel]

But can Minecraft be built using Typescript Types?

[lethal walrus]

Doom can

So logically so can Minecraft

[marble jewel]

Maybe Typescript Types should be an honorary entry to this list

Can TypeScript Types run Linux?

[devout vault]

Not quite programming and more displays, but you forget “can it run bad apple”

[devout vault]

Honestly after seeing the no-JS idle clicker game I’m not really surprised

[devout vault]

I saw someone implement Tetris using c++ templates at one point. You had to (pre?)compile it each “frame”, but still

[azure fern]

Do I have to un-zip a mod when I put it in the mods folder

[sand frost]

I think you might be looking for #1272025932932055121 but yes, you do

[azure fern]

Ty

[supple ether]

is it bad that I'm actually considering installing lynx

[fleet wren]

the browser? I played around with it aeons ago

fun fact, it works with that library that turns images into ascii representation

[supple ether]

huh, interesting

[fleet wren]

or you can just use the other library that allows loading images in terminal windows, but that's not as fun

[supple ether]

idk I've just been on an alt browser kick lately and I was thinking it might be nice to have a text-first browser for things like reading and wikis

[worn remnant]

no, lynx is one of the sanest web browsers there is for transferring text (the web's primary job).
however, it is an indictment of the state of the web in the year of our lord 2025

[fleet wren]

I used to have a "Gecko engine" hyperfixation phase (yeah) and tried out like every Firefox forks and related software

[supple ether]

I tried Zen recently and can't decide if I like it or not

[fleet wren]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Songbird_(software) this used to be my music player

(yes, a music player running XUL)

[supple ether]

that's really interesting actually

I had no idea that existed

a xul-driven media player isn't that surprising, actually, considering wmp, vlc, winamp, and foobar all had/have theme support

[ivory shadow]

I used Songbird for a bit, way back when

[fleet wren]

yeah it supports full blown XUL addons

[supple ether]

was it supposed to be an itunes clone? the interface looks almost identical

[worn remnant]

i think i remember using that once or twice

[fleet wren]

tbh what players released around that time frame isn't an itunes clone

[supple ether]

... how old is winamp, anyways?

[worn remnant]

1997

[supple ether]

oh my god it's almost as old as me

well that certainly explains why "classic" skins look the way they do

[cinder karma]

God I miss lynx

How are we doing today, programmers

How goes the programming

[worn remnant]

not as well as i would like. the problem is i keep logging on to the distraction machine

[cinder karma]

I'm going to try for another run

Wanna guess how far i get before I start limping? Made it a mile last time

||I just wanna runnnnn|||

[devout vault]

It certainly doesn't help that programming is on the distraction machine

Meanwhile I just keep adding things to my MC mod idea list with no signs of actually getting one made

(Currently: 18)

[worn remnant]

i should really set up some kind of monastic focus environment where i black hole a bunch of dns names and prevent myself from opening discord etc. but i never do because i love to noodle on the computer

[devout vault]

(And let's not count my game idea stuff lately)

[cinder karma]

Why is my salad spicy, asks local idiot who forgot about the chili oil they added to said salad

[devout vault]

OS that only has a compiler, bash, and vim

[cinder karma]

I used to put parental controls on myself lol

[devout vault]

Kinda like when I installed that browser addon for limiting time on certain sites.

The "override for X amount of time" has been getting liberal use lately...

[cinder karma]

You have plenty of free time!

I'm trying to not fall asleep into my salad

[devout vault]

An abundance of free time is useless when thrown into the distraction machine

[cinder karma]

Tomorrow is Fridayyyyyy

[supple ether]

I've been mostly handling the social media black hole by playing sudoku instead whenever I get the impulse

it actually works great because it engages my brain and gets rid of the momentary craving for easy stimulation

I still pour way too much free time into web fiction though

[devout vault]

<insert someone who says "I don't do social media" but spends 27 hours a day on reddit>

[cinder karma]

I've been watching some Midwestern guy clean

https://youtu.be/6ov7nKNPPxE?si=RvoUfERxKetYmBu0

[cinder karma]

I wouldn't be surprised if your day was 27 hrs

[supple ether]

I'm on tumblr, it's the only thing I can stand these days

when it dies I probably will just quit social media tbh

[devout vault]

If I could make myself stop browsing reddit and such I'd be doing this instead

[cinder karma]

Is discord social media