programmers-off-topic

[ivory shadow]

Behold, the mighty gooseMasamune emote.

For when just isn't enough.

[safe dragon]

damn that's good

I respect going with 8 different emotes and not just taking the easy route with an infinitely repeatable middle bit

[devout vault]

It does???? Since when???

[ivory shadow]

Since 2016?

[devout vault]

I see variables and SASS and such were mentioned shortly before my message - maybe I should finish backreading before responding to things 😛

[devout vault]

wat

[ivory shadow]

Well, 2017 if you count Edge but yeah. Been a thing for a while.

[devout vault]

Huh

[ivory shadow]

CSS variables are great for standardizing theme stuff.

[lethal walrus]

body {
 --thing: 28px;
}  

p {
  font-size: var(--thing);
} 

[devout vault]

Well, in my defense, my web dev experience has mostly been "google things as I need them" (which is basically the same way I learned programming to begin with), and I haven't done as much web dev stuff since.... 2016, actually. 😛 (And even then, mostly back end stuff)

Though I never got into the nodejs backend craze, I've basically only used PHP. (And that one time I experiemented with using C++ with the CGI system, just for fun)

[safe dragon]

I use css variables almost solely for defining theme colors... sometimes I use it to make a horrible multi element margins/padding hack feel slightly less horrible by making sure they all refer to the same variable

[ivory shadow]

So, my work day as of now is sitting around waiting for people to accept my darn PRs. How's everyone else's days going?

[pliant snow]

I'm sitting around waiting for someone else to finish submitting a PR so that I can submit my PR

[ivory shadow]

Excellent.

[devout vault]

Yeah well I'm waiting for someone to submit a PR who is waiting for someone else to submit a PR /s

(something something "not everything is a competition"...)

[safe dragon]

for reasons our remote urls were changed at like 5 pm today so I am looking forward to updating my remote urls on every project tomorrow

[pliant snow]

lol why

[ivory shadow]

5pm is such an incredible time of day to change things

[pliant snow]

"Hey Jim, you know what would be a laugh, let's change the git domain name"

[safe dragon]

naming consistency...

[pliant snow]

That's only a myth

[safe dragon]

they wanted to change the azure devops project name to be more accurate to what it's used for now but the remote urls include the project name

[devout vault]

The only better thing is 5 PM on a friday

[pliant snow]

the week before christmas

[safe dragon]

the day before you go on vacation

and you have a really important item you need to finish

[ivory shadow]

I've had a vendor hit me with breaking API changes at 7pm on a Saturday before

[safe dragon]

oh that's exciting

[ivory shadow]

who the fuck even commits code on a Saturday

(╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻

(I mean aside from hobby stuff)

[safe dragon]

those damn people on github with just completely green contribution thingeys

[devout vault]

Maybe contractors? I think I've done that before 😛

Not the breaking API changes part

[ivory shadow]

I have a bright green square for last Saturday. But that's my hobby GH account. And all this is just the result of me putting out 13 PRs to random Stardew mod repos across the past week.

[safe dragon]

I don't think I've experienced anything that bad... We had a giftcard supplier change their api url a week before christmas though

easy enough to fix but a bizarre choice

[devout vault]

https://github.com/aljazst/github-contributions-generator
(Linking this one in particular because you can make your activity spell out words.)

[ivory shadow]

(Technically I did 14 PRs, but I closed and re-did one cause it wasn't up to quality.)

[pliant snow]

This guy I'm waiting on keeps adding more and more reviewers to their patch, I think in an attempt to find anyone who will actually look at it

[safe dragon]

but how will I then look at my contribution graph in amusement as I have basically no commits till december where I suddenly have 25 consistent days in a row and then nothing again

[devout vault]

I was just looking at mine and "admiring" my visible code droughts. (Example for 2019)

I assume you're referring to advent of code stuff?

[safe dragon]

this is what a pure AoC programmer looks like

[pliant snow]

a brief spike in inspiration in August

[devout vault]

That's not pure AoC! Look at those other non-December days! (Unless you were doing old AoC I guess)

[lethal walrus]

mine's ruined thanks to obsidian git sync :(

[ivory shadow]

June, September (mostly), and October weren't good for hobbies I guess

[lethal walrus]

i should just move that to a different account

[safe dragon]

do not doubt my AoC dedication

[devout vault]

HMMMM, I wonder when my current more-intense-depression spell started

[pliant snow]

My old years I think are no longer accurate, idk if I deleted a repo or changed settings or what

[devout vault]

Curious how you skipped 2021

[safe dragon]

no I didn't

in fact that's the worst one

[devout vault]

I meant skipped showing it

[safe dragon]

I legit didn't use github outside of advent of code

I did show it

it's right there...

[devout vault]

(Though I was implying you skipped it)

It is? Am I blind?

[safe dragon]

the 4th of those 5 images

[devout vault]

Oh, I didn't notice there was 5

I thought there was four

[ivory shadow]

2018 was sure a year, lol

[devout vault]

They kinda blend in on dark mode if you don't look at the month names 😛

[ivory shadow]

That's when I made my hobby GH account, only contributed to one project a bit

[safe dragon]

all I know is advent of code there is no other type of programming

unfortunately for my jobs I've almost solely used azure devops for some reason

so no contribution graph

[ivory shadow]

Behold my 2020 graph.

[rotund violet]

What's more fun than waiting for people on your team to accept your change: waiting for people who are on an upstream team to fix the broken build of the thing you depend on so you can actually submit the change that's already been approved.

[safe dragon]

very impressive

[ivory shadow]

I didn't introduce a single bug in 2020. #NoCode

[pliant snow]

I only introduced bugs into 2020

[safe dragon]

is this what these fabled no code platforms are about

[pliant snow]

Okay, time to play that game to actually learn flexboxes...

[ivory shadow]

The flexbox frog thing?

Honestly a neat little website

[safe dragon]

I don't consider flexboxes to be particularly complicated in the first place

[devout vault]

You know, I'm noticing mine isn't accurate pre-2016 either (when I started stardew modding basically).

Like, I know I used that account for all my minecraft mods and the repos are still there

Actually, looking at those repos, I wasn't using source control for most of while I was modding, so I guess that sorta makes sense

[safe dragon]

speaking of no code...

[pliant snow]

I literally have never even looked at flexboxes

[devout vault]

"no code" but it's really coding with blocks instead of text, ie. code in a trenchcoat wearing one of these

[pliant snow]

I assume they're boxes that flex, that's the end of my understanding

[safe dragon]

it's code in a trenchchoat and it also really sucks

[devout vault]

I dislike block based programming

[pliant snow]

2020 was when I was doing a lot of programming, but looking at my profile, it doesn't say I did much before like 2023. I did switch emails at some point, idk if that's why

[ivory shadow]

flexbox, aka "finally there's a good way to vertically center something that isn't just a big hack"

[rotund violet]

I've found block programming occasionally useful in one specific case, and that is shader programs.

[ivory shadow]

Shader graph tools can be nice.

[rotund violet]

And to some extent that's almost more like configuration than code.

[ivory shadow]

It's definitely more configuration than code with how those tools are built.

[safe dragon]

a company we work with decided some 5 years ago they wanted a management application similar to ours so they hired some company to build one for them using "no code" tooling and it gives me a little bit of joy hearing about how miserable it is and the absolutely bizarre workarounds they're using to provide some basic custom functionality

[devout vault]

I guess it sorta makes sense for shaders. But at the same time, I haven't gotten around to learning how to write shaders, so...

[rotund violet]

"Yes, but what if we combine no-code with ChatGPT code? Then it's bound to work!"

[pliant snow]

There was a really useful video I found where a guy walked through a shadertoy example

[ivory shadow]

People on shadertoy are all crazy

[safe dragon]

either you learn funky shader language boxes or you stare at some dude's shadertoy example which basically guaranteed only have single letter variable names and be completely unreadable

[rotund violet]

Yeah, simple shaders are enough of a pain as it is, the stuff you find on shadertoy is stuff I'd never want to use in a real project because I'd have no clue how to fix or change any of it.

[safe dragon]

shaders continue to be kind of witchcraft to me

I've written some but it still...

[rotund violet]

To be fair, a lot of the time the single-letter variable names are because it's literally just math and the different terms don't mean anything - there's no sensible name you can assign.

It's just "here's some intermediate term in a stupidly complex equation that I separated out to make it somewhat readable"

[safe dragon]

yeah it's often kind of excusable

[rotund violet]

Which doesn't help you or I, the reader, but still, can't blame them for the cryptic naming.

[pliant snow]

sure I can

[safe dragon]

I will gladly blame them

[dusty pollen]

but I would still end up having to put the random number I pulled out of nowhere SOMEWHERE

[pliant snow]

I'm letting flexbox froggy down

[devout vault]

...I feel like the only way to avoid that is to not use any numbers, even in actual programming

Which might be difficult

[dusty pollen]

see, now you're getting close to the kind of programming I like

[devout vault]

Ah yes, string-only programming

<flashbacks to college "BigInt" assignment, where we had to make a big integer class that used strings and could do basic arithmetic>

[dusty pollen]

eugh no, just... mathsy stuff written for computers

and by mathsy stuff I mean the kind that uses numbers vary sparingly

[devout vault]

Sounds like a lot of the things in my discrete math class (which I guess some people might argue isn't math)

Discrete math was so fun

[dusty pollen]

discrete maths is absolutely maths!

[ivory shadow]

JavaScript has a BigInt

[devout vault]

This was in C++

[dusty pollen]

for reference, I enjoyed anything to do with discrete maths, combinatorics, set theory, a little bit of AI (both ML and otherwise)... just generally the stuff that usually went past the numbers part of maths and back into not using them lmao

[rotund violet]

Why would you use a string to represent a bigint, as opposed to multiple int/long variables or an array if you really (bafflingly) needed arbitrary precision?

[safe dragon]

so that you couldn't copy the answer online or something idk

[rotund violet]

I guess the answer is probably "because college"

[devout vault]

It had something to do with what we had just learned in class

I don't remember what

[pliant snow]

I have no longer disappointed flexbox froggy

[devout vault]

It might've been operator overloading? Which they might've allowed alternative approaches in that case

[safe dragon]

internal implementation: BigInteger.TryParse

operator overloading aka the thing you should almost never do

[devout vault]

I noticed for a lot of the intro cs assignments, there were better ways of doing things but you had to do them in a particular way because they needed to test your knowledge of what was covered most recently in class.

There were multiple times when I asked if I could do X instead for the home work and was told no. I became somewhat-friends with that professor later on and she mentioned at some point how it made her sad she had to tell me not to do it in those ways I wanted 😅

[safe dragon]

"do it the dumb way"

[devout vault]

I like operator overloading, fight me.

...That being said, I have seen atrocities. I think I remember some crazy stuff on the SFML forums about someone abusing the addition operator or the bitshift operator or something (though to be fair, C++ standard library itself abuses bitshift operator with <iostream>...)

[devout vault]

Well, it was more the fact that if I did it the way I wanted, they wouldn't be able to see if I properly understood the course material.

Crazy example (I don't think this was one that actually happened), but imagine if we covered recursion, and for the assignment they wanted you to calculate fibonacci numbers. Sure, you can do that iteratively (and it is in fact better that way), but then they don't know if you understood recursion or not

[safe dragon]

as someone who doesn't know C++ I will forever be confused by the hello world example using cout << "Hello World" or whatever it is again, it... bitshifts the hello world into cout.

I have learnt that this is some iostream function overload situation thing but it's just such a bizarre thing to open up with

I have since learnt that C++ does in fact have a normal print function too

[devout vault]

Yep, that's the syntax. I feel like it's more confusing for people with programming experience (and therefore know what bitshift is) compared to those who don't (and so have no frame of reference for what << normally does)

[safe dragon]

though I think most people will be confused by cout regardless

[devout vault]

I know there's printf carried over from C, but is there a built in C++ equivalent now? I haven't kept up to date with the standards since like C++11

[safe dragon]

what does the c in cout even stand for

[dusty pollen]

I'd imagine the string implementation is to prevent you guys from using native integer methods and force you to treat them as character by character, ig?

[devout vault]

console out

[safe dragon]

ctdout

oh

console

[devout vault]

cin is console in

[safe dragon]

sin

[devout vault]

Whoever designed the C++ iostream system did indeed sin /s

[devout vault]

Perhaps, but if it was operator overloading for that assignment, then that wouldn't necessarily make sense to require. (I'm not sure that the string impl was required either, that's just how they recommended to do it for students who had no idea how to approach it)

[dusty pollen]

cout. full thing is Cout's Only for Unique Terminals /j

[devout vault]

Ah, there's std::print in C++23, interesting.

I made my own solution back with C++11 using variadic templates if I recall correctly

[devout vault]

I mean, it doesn't have to output to the terminal - I'm pretty sure I've swapped the stream it uses to the one for a std::stringstream or something at some point

[rotund violet]

They could always just ask you to write some program demonstrating recursion and giving fibonacci as an example, instead of actually requiring everyone to use the same dumb tired example everyone's seen ten million times and half of them probably copy and paste.

But that would require the people grading it to actually do work.

[safe dragon]

make people learn haskell where custom operators are very normal

[devout vault]

(I know you were making a silly acronym, but please keep silly acronyms accurate to reality. There's a line where things become Too Silly ™️ (a line which I regularly cross but anyways))

[safe dragon]

I do like recursive acronyms

[marble jewel]

Wine is Not an Emulator

[safe dragon]

GNU's Not Unix

PHP: Hypertext Processor

good stuff

[devout vault]

Perhaps, but I feel like that's slightly cynical considering how many professors/TAs compared to students there were at my college, at least in intro to CS. Like, one professor and like 3-5 TAs and a couple hundred students, if I remember correctly.

Of course, you could argue they should hire more people then, and I'd tend to agree, but I know funding and also department burueacracy (which I hear there's a lot of at my college's CS department) tend to complicate matters

[rotund violet]

Actually I'd argue that they should accept a lot fewer CS students.

[devout vault]

The CS program did have limited slots, but intro to CS and maybe the next class or two wasn't solely for the major. It was also for adjacent majors, minors, electives, etc.

[rotund violet]

That makes the system more broken, not less.

[devout vault]

My college wasn't known for a great CS program to be fair, I picked it solely because it was the same town my parents lived in. I think the town 2 hours away had a college with a much better CS program

[marble jewel]

How about all practical knowledge should be part of general education, and intro CS stuff should be considered practical knowledge

[devout vault]

I think technically you have to be accepted into the CS program for the later classes, but I never was and still was able to do the later classes so not sure how that worked. (I think I never got formally accepted because I didn't finish the general prereqs? Can't recall)

[dusty pollen]

I believe CS was one of the most competitive programs at my uni I'm actually pretty sure right now their most competitive course is CS & Maths. So clearly some unis are attempting to limit, but the nature of cs being so young does mean departments are growing very quickly, even at that uni

[safe dragon]

considering my high school failed at even teaching us basic Excel I don't have much hope in a CS course in general education

[rotund violet]

Why? Everyone on the planet needs to know how to code, including stocking clerks and truck drivers?

[devout vault]

I don't think you go to college for those 😛

[rotund violet]

And only some 20% of the population is even capable.

[dusty pollen]

oh yeah, gen ed at uni... ngl I will never understand that

[safe dragon]

oh right the US has general education in universities

[marble jewel]

Everyone entering adulthood should acquire basic life skills, and in this day and age some computer literacy is relevant to just about every industry

[devout vault]

I'd argue computer literacy != programming

[rotund violet]

Computer science is not computer literacy, I've met far too many computer-illiterate CS grads to accept any equivalency.

[marble jewel]

Yeah, that's why I said into-CS and not programming

[dusty pollen]

when I went to uni, I didn't do ANYTHING outside of CS and maths

[safe dragon]

same

[dusty pollen]

I think computer literacy is honestly more IT than CS

[safe dragon]

computer science doesn't sound very necessary

unless teaching someone how to navigate file system is computer science

[rotund violet]

Anyway, to make an intro-to-CS course mandatory and have a majority of students actually pass it, you'd either need to water it down a great deal or defund all the liberal arts and social sciences majors.
(The latter wouldn't be a bad thing to me, but it's not going to happen)

[dusty pollen]

I am one of the people who wishes people kept saying everyone should become a programmer because either we'll all need to be programmers soon or because there are infinite jobs and money in programming work, because it's not true and it just brings a bunch of people with no interest in becoming competent into the field

[devout vault]

So, 'fun' tangential tidbit: One of the co-reqs for intro to CS was intro to linux or something, which covers the computer fluency general graduation requirement.

However, my faculty friend I keep in touch with has mentioned that the computer literacy of new students has rapidly declined the last few years. Like, not knowing how to use files and directories level (in a graphical interface, not the terminal). So I kinda feel like computer literacy should be a prereq now too

[marble jewel]

It's the "post-computer" era of incoming students

The "What's a Computer" generation

[safe dragon]

I have heard that's the case yeah

[rotund violet]

It's mobile. Mobile walled gardens are killing computer literacy.

[devout vault]

Yeah

[safe dragon]

especially iOS

[fleet wren]

https://www.theverge.com/22684730/students-file-folder-directory-structure-education-gen-z

[safe dragon]

iOS desperately wants to pretend the file system doesn't exist

[fleet wren]

(tl;dr younger people who grew up with smartphones and search engines have to be taught how files and folders work, because that's just not the computing paradigm they grew up with)

[marble jewel]

In case you don't remember the reference (although it has been used more recently too)
https://youtu.be/3S5BLs51yDQ?si=0twGqkTDmCo0eDp8

[rotund violet]

I guess search is a contributor too, but I'm not just thinking about file systems, it's the whole "everything is an app" mentality, there's no awareness of the device or the OS itself.

And even the apps themselves are delivered by another app.

[dusty pollen]

I think there are a lot of interesting things that education hasn't caught up with since the most recent technological revolution, and computer literacy is only at the surface level. English lit used to be a subject that was intended, to an extent, to give you practical media literacy, but we need a whole new type of media literacy education for the modern age

[safe dragon]

maybe this is why microsoft still has not made its file explorer search function work even remotely well... They're afraid people will forget how to navigate their file system

[marble jewel]

Even mainstream operating systems are trying to hide the filesystem, which frustrates me

[rotund violet]

Mac OS does make it needlessly difficult to navigate parts of the file system.

[safe dragon]

considering how actively hostile ios/ipados is to giving you access to the file system...

[fleet wren]

understanding that a program is an executable file that you have to navigate to and execute vs just an 'app' (whatever that means)

[rotund violet]

It's a weird design, parts of it make the file system very obvious but parts of it (like Applications) go to elaborate lengths to tell you "nope, no files here!"

[devout vault]

I'm... not sure I'd agree with removing liberal arts and social sciences being a good thing.

Like, doesn't history fall under liberal arts for example? Maybe you're just referring to 'artisitic' stuff with that, but I feel like society should be at a point where it's okay for people to pursue that sort of thing. I'm pretty sure that there's enough food in the world to feed everyone for example, it just isn't distributed properly because money.

And social sciences includes stuff like psychology and economics, which I feel like are incredibly important

[rotund violet]

Honestly, mobile phones/tablets dominating "computing" today is the equivalent of AOL and CompuServe dominating the Internet

[rain apex]

I had a microsoft office class in grade 3 it was nice

[fleet wren]

...huh, I missed this comment from you earlier. how about I greatly and loudly disagree with your suggestion to defund the arts and socials

[rain apex]

They shud do that in elementary schools here

[fleet wren]

the world doesn't need more tech bros with a child-like's understanding of society and with no appreciation for the arts

[safe dragon]

try finding elementary school teachers who know how to teach that in a world where it's already practically impossible to find elementary school teachers

idk how it is where you are but here schools have resorted to essentially hiring completely untrained people just to have someone who can stand in front of a class

[rotund violet]

Ok, not all of it, just most. Psychology is one of the worst fields in terms of replicability, really does need to go in its current form - the idea of it is fine, the execution is a disaster. Economics is normally a Bachelor of Science or Commerce.

[marble jewel]

In a hypothetical utopia, everything is automated so you should be able to devote your life towards recreation instead of working for money

[rotund violet]

History does actually belong in the arts and is actually useful, at least in principle.

[safe dragon]

unfortunately that's very much hypothetical and such a situation would not turn into a utopia

[rotund violet]

This sounds dystopian to me. A passive consumptive lifestyle with no dignity, no thanks.

[marble jewel]

It's more like all of your needs are met, so anything that goes beyond that is entirely optional

[rotund violet]

"Needs"

[devout vault]

Right? Like, (at least in my opinion) the human experience isn't about solely being productive in a strictly functional sense. Sure, it's nice to have that too, but I feel like that's more of modern society / capitalism thing

[rotund violet]

Yes, it's always capitalism's fault. Of course.

[devout vault]

Well, I'm just using it as an example because I get the impression societies like most native americans didn't focus on the same sort of things 😛

[rain apex]

I was lucky, right time and place kind of thing

[thin estuary]

reminded me of one of my coworkers introducing the a !! b operator in our codebase, which basically does a.HasValue ? a.Value : throw b, except the Swift equivalent

[rain apex]

My elementary school literally just opened when i was there for grade 1

[rotund violet]

Yeah, and those societies were super advanced.

[rain apex]

So they had spanky new computers n shit

[devout vault]

Saying the arts aren't important feels like saying we should all be robots optimized to perfection and not make mistakes and not feel things. (Admittedly there was a time when I wanted to be that, but that was in the crippling depression + unknown gender dysphoria wombo combo phase)

[rotund violet]

Capitalism isn't a "focus", it's just a descriptive term for how trade works and how capital (literally, the term comes from one meaning heads of cattle) are managed. What you're probably trying to describe is more like "finance capitalism", which is a severe break from how markets worked in say the 17th century.

[rotund violet]

Ah, I see the disconnect here. You're interpreting my statement about defunding those programs in universities to mean that those subjects themselves aren't useful or important. But that is not in fact what I said.

What I said, or implied, was that the scope of post-secondary education (and most primary education) is all wrong.

[fleet wren]

nah, I disagree too
people need to be more socially aware post secondary, not less. colleges being shit at teaching them isn't the faults of the arts

[rotund violet]

No, it's the fault of the colleges and the education system running them.

"Social awareness" simply doesn't belong in the mission of a college. That's not what they're there to teach.

[devout vault]

...so? Society being advanced for the sake of advancement itself in my opinion is pointless. We should be advancing to improve our lives (and not just strictly needs met - includes things like entertainment too, hence art).

And I'm not saying for example science for the sake of learning more is pointless. Learning is fulfilling too, I absolutely love learning. But, like... the first example that comes to mind is NFTs. 😛 Like, sure, blockchains are a neat concept, but it doesn't need to be inserted into everything just to make it more advanced. (I imagine that's not what you meant though)

[rotund violet]

I'll agree without reservation that NFTs are ridiculous.

[devout vault]

Do you have an ideas on how you think it would be better? Or is it more of a case of 'I can see a problem but not sure of a solution' (which I'm not saying is bad thing)?

[rotund violet]

I'll also agree that technological advancement isn't the telos of civilization, though it is an exceptionally good yardstick.

[marble jewel]

I don't think that everyone should have to be a productive cog in the machine if at a baseline we can all at least have food, shelter, and good health.

[devout vault]

I can't say I agree, though I'm not sure how to put why into a cohesive string of words

(At least one that would make sense outside my head)

[rotund violet]

I do, but they are mostly unspeakable in these parts.

[fleet wren]

See, I disagree with this as well. but that might just be a cultural thing

why are they unspeakable? go ahead

[devout vault]

Maybe server rules?

Admittedly I don't have the server rules memorized

[rotund violet]

Something like that. More like how rules can be interpreted.

[marble jewel]

I don't know if you believe the alternative to colleges providing social awareness is that it becomes generational knowledge, but that line of thinking is also what helps maintain the status quo of imbalance between the poor and the rich.

[rotund violet]

There is always an imbalance between the poor and the rich, anything else is communism. What we used to have and no longer have was a sense of noblesse oblige among the upper classes.

The poor were better off when the rich actually felt like they didn't entirely "deserve" to be rich, they just were rich.

[supple ether]

IMO the sole purpose of civilization is to provide for its participants. All else is secondary

[devout vault]

...has there even been a time where most of the rich actually felt that way?

Maybe I just hear about the bad stuff

[pliant snow]

The rich always felt they deserved to be rich, we just didn't have twitter to hear it from them before

[devout vault]

But I feel like more of the rich don't have that sort of noblesse oblige thing

[marble jewel]

I had to self-learn financial literacy because I came from a dirt poor family that simply did not know any of what's required to build wealth, but I see a lot of my peers in the same position today as their families have been in for ages

[devout vault]

Admittedly the only time I've ever heard that concept is in fantasy stories where a noble is basically rebelling against the way the rest are. I'm sure it came from somewhere, but I feel like in reality it wouldn't be common either

[rotund violet]

Yes, in fact, most of the west's history throughout the second millennium included an aristocratic class that contributed a great deal. It produced its share of assholes, certainly, but far fewer than postmodernism has produced.

[supple ether]

I think the main difference isn't noblesse oblige (although I'm sure there were good people born into power at the time, as there always are) but rather industrialization

[marble jewel]

And in my case school didn't teach me, but I feel like the knowledge should be available to all so that at least everyone has the same options and opportunities

[rotund violet]

Industrialization isn't the problem. Industrialization accelerated the upward mobility of the poor. Post-modernism and financialization (excessive debt) halted it and created more downward mobility.

[supple ether]

not that industry is a bad thing, but it did change... basically everything, including the shape of wealth and power

[rotund violet]

Mercantilism overthrowing the old monarchies and then being replaced with theocratic oligarchy was what really changed the shape of wealth and power.

[devout vault]

This makes me think of older generations (mainly boomers?) making fun of younger generations for not knowing how to do things like sewing a tear up or various house/car maintenance things.

[ivory shadow]

I look away from this channel for half an hour and return to this. Off topic is off topicing well today.

[supple ether]

oh yeah my parents taught me jack squat about being an adult and I struggled a lot for it

[marble jewel]

Old generations that learned from their parents, but failed to teach their children somehow blaming their children for not learning it themselves

[rotund violet]

Regarding this, we used to have a very good apprenticeship system which has also all but disappeared.

I would much rather be taught by a master or even a journeyman in some discipline than a professional... er... professor.

[supple ether]

that is something I do wish was more common

[devout vault]

We strive to be as off topic as possible! renames channel to #everything-off-topic

[marble jewel]

I know this is an old example, and mostly relevant to the US, but why the hell don't they teach you how to do taxes in school. Everyone has to do it.

[supple ether]

it exists for some trades but it's a system we should really have in place for everything

[rotund violet]

(I would rather they simplify the tax code than teach you how to do taxes in school)

[devout vault]

Yeah, exactly.

[devout vault]

Why not both?

[rotund violet]

True, they aren't entirely mutually exclusive. But the way the tax code works right now, anything you learned in school this year would literally be obsolete next year.

[supple ether]

when you rely on corporations to train the next generation, you're asking for trouble because they don't care one whit about long-term gain and are perfectly willing to strangle the new blood in the long term if it means bigger profits in the short term

[marble jewel]

Don't worry y'all. Once the US Education Department is dissolved, school can finally be fixed /s

[rotund violet]

Eh, that is a two-sided relationship, employees are free to quit after they've received their training and often do. I think the issue there isn't corporations per se but the sorts of people the current system selects for to run those corporations.

The average CEO today is very much unlike the entrepreneur of the 19th century.

[supple ether]

that's fair, but I would also argue that the system is set up to reward those kinds of people

not necessarily in a structural sense (though quite possibly) but mostly in a cultural sense

[sand frost]

This is not true at all (unless the rate of change accelerates dramatically)

[rotund violet]

Oh, indeed it is. Though I think we'd have many disagreements on which parts of the system, and why. But we should probably stay away from that topic.

[sand frost]

My taxes have been largely identical over the last several years

[hardy jewel]

Hey guys, a reminder that political talk isn't allowed in the server

[rotund violet]

Of course I was being slightly hyperbolic by "next year" but over say a 10 year period not much is conserved.

[hardy jewel]

please try to stay away from those sorts of topics

[ivory shadow]

My taxes are up quite a bit this year. I can only imagine how they'll be next year.

Then again maybe the IRS will implode by then and I can get by without paying them /s

[devout vault]

I still need to do my taxes. 😔

[rotund violet]

Give it a try and let us know how that goes.

[ivory shadow]

-# If you need something to do to procrastinate doing your taxes you can always merge PRs

[supple ether]

eh, IRS doesn't care much about the small fish

it's nice to get a refund though

[marble jewel]

I just did my taxes last week, but I need to do my in-laws taxes this weekend

[devout vault]

-# It's almost like you're calling me specifically out regarding your pending PR or something

[ivory shadow]

I don't get a refund this year I get a bill for $800

[supple ether]

oof

[devout vault]

I'm pretty sure I'll have to pay because contractor work

[supple ether]

why so much?

[rotund violet]

I've had to pay large tax bills for the past 5 years or so. Withholding was never quite enough.

[marble jewel]

I've owed taxes every year for 10+ years, but this year was one of the first times I've gotten a refund and it's because 2024 was my first full year paying a mortgage

[ivory shadow]

I don't remember the specifics right now but it's part capital gains and... I think a credit I expected to get wasn't nearly as big as it has been previously?

[devout vault]

Also I owed money last year and had installments, but only paid the first two and never got letters or anything about the next two and sorta forgot about it. (Also got a check for a couple dollars in the mail after the second payment, which confused me on the matter more since there was still like $2-4k left to pay???)

[rotund violet]

(It's because withholding is based on some bizarre estimation formula that somehow doesn't hold up in reality... and also capital gains, yeah)

[supple ether]

ah, capital gains, yeah that makes sense

I make a pittance so they always overcharge me

[sand frost]

You can change your withholdings to cover capital gains if you know the rough amount in advance

[rotund violet]

Yeah, you can. I never bothered because I'd rather pay at the end of the year (assuming no interest).

[sand frost]

(Of course, cap gains specifically usually results from one-time events, so that’s trickier, but general dividends income and such is more predictable)

[rotund violet]

Of course I also wouldn't set the withholding to zero because I'd never trust myself to budget for a $50,000 bill at the end of the year, but still.

[ivory shadow]

I wish I knew what I'd get in advance. I would manipulate the stock market and become a millionaire.

[sand frost]

Cap gains is specifically realized cap gains tho so can always just not sell

[rotund violet]

(That was an arbitrary number by the way, I'm not saying I paid exactly $50k in taxes)

[supple ether]

I was gonna say

you'd have to make a LOT to pay 50k in taxes

[rotund violet]

Not as much as you'd think.

[ivory shadow]

Isn't it fun to be in the bracket where you earn enough that you have to pay a ton of money in taxes but you don't earn enough to not have to pay a ton of money in taxes.

[rotund violet]

The tax rate approaches 50% as you get into the upper brackets.

[sand frost]

I bet you one Stardew object sprite’s worth of pixel art someone in this server pays that much in taxes 😛

[rotund violet]

(I also didn't say I paid less than $50k... I'm not saying, period)

[supple ether]

you'd be paying almost twice as much in taxes as I made last year total

[sand frost]

Dunno who but we got lots of people here

[devout vault]

I mean, CA's in this server, and I imagine the business does in fact pay at least that much...

[sand frost]

Oh true

I forgot that

[rotund violet]

Stardew isn't under some incorporated entity?

[sand frost]

I still make that bet excluding CA tho

[rotund violet]

I'm guessing it is, and CA just pays himself a salary or whatever.

[sand frost]

I mean I would hope(?) CA pays himself

[rotund violet]

Corporate taxes are a different kettle of fish.

[supple ether]

I don't think he's incorporated

maybe?

[sand frost]

I would be a little horrified if so, but I suppose it’s possible???

[rotund violet]

Stardew Valley Copyright © 2016-2025 ConcernedApe LLC

LLC = Limited Liability Corporation

[sand frost]

Ok yeah that’s more what I expected

LLCs aren’t too hard to set up

[rotund violet]

Assets (and taxes) are separated from CA's personal wealth (and income).

[supple ether]

I looked that up but couldn't find anything

[rotund violet]

I just went to stardewvalley.net, it's at the bottom.

[marble jewel]

48K in taxes paid, but I only owed 46K

[rain apex]

When i was in school i had ability to use tuition to cancel some income tax

Is that a thing in murica

[rotund violet]

There are education deductions. There are lots of deductions.

Student loans are a confounding mess, though.

[sand frost]

Sort of yes, and sort of no iirc

It’s been a while since I looked into it

You do get a tax form indicating amount of tuition paid

1098T

[rotund violet]

If you like reading terminally bore-ass IRS boilerplate: https://www.irs.gov/newsroom/tax-benefits-for-education-information-center

The tl;dr is that there is a deduction for tuition and some other fees.

[devout vault]

It is, I specifically said 'the business' 😛

[rotund violet]

Well, maybe CA LLC pays CA over $250k/year. Personally, I wouldn't.

Unless you really need that much to live off of, it's more efficient to keep it in the LLC.

Or use various (totally legal) tax shelters to spend it on specific things.

[supple ether]

CA funneling money into golf courses in panama /jk

[ivory shadow]

At that point you should be paying an accountant who knows what they're doing anyways

And not doing money yourself.

[rotund violet]

You would be surprised how many accountants do a worse job than personal management. "Knows what they're doing" is the key of course, but as with any professional, that's hard to judge if you aren't one yourself.

[supple ether]

all this money talk has made me sad, I'm gonna go for a walk

[marble jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/money-crying-woody-harrelson-wiping-tears-with-money-gif-6945518

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, money can be a rough topic.

Have a nice walk. ^^

[devout vault]

I've been hungry for like 3 hours and haven't gotten something to eat because I'm busy chatting here, probably should go do that 😛

[marble jewel]

Ah, you're on the Discord diet I see

Instead of attending to your needs, you just keep on chatting

[ivory shadow]

It's approaching dinner time for me too.

It's so grossly bright outside thanks to Daylight Savings Time and the changing of seasons.

It doesn't feel like 6pm at all.

[devout vault]

It also gets bad when I get into fiction. Sometimes actual literature, sometimes just fandom wikis detailing all the lore.

Last night was an SCP rabbithole, forced myself to go to bed at 4 AM (and didn't put my phone down in bed for another 2 hours...)

Speaking of fandom wikis, they can be so dumb sometimes. I think the dumbest one I've seen is the doctor who fandom wiki.

Example: https://tardis.fandom.com/wiki/7000_(number)

Why is there a page for a number, which only lists a single occurence (and isn't really a significant one at that - 7k was just a single line early in a sort of montage which ends up getting up to 4.5 billion).

AND, it isn't even all the occurences, because when I found that page it was linked from a different occurence, which isn't the one listed on there. (I can't recall which page that was)

[ivory shadow]

(SCP Foundation expansion for Stardew when)

[devout vault]

(20 minutes later and I still haven't eaten...)

[marble jewel]

Because you're being satiated by fandom wikis

[devout vault]

I'm not on a fandom wiki, this time, I'm going through a web comic that I've been following on reddit for a while, but see all the entries posted on webtoon and so can read all the stuff I've missed. (Tiff & Eve)

[sand frost]

You should eat before it gets into the spiral of “hungry therefore tired” “tired therefore no eat”

[devout vault]

I don't think I've had that happen before. If anything, sometimes I can't sleep because I'm hungry.

(I still haven't eaten. I should either go make something or order something so I can eat when it arrives...)

[dusty pollen]

my adhd has decided that Hades is what my brain will spend 100% of its brainpower on for the next few days and the saddest part is that I'm so incredibly bad at it

[sand frost]

I thought that was the point of Hades 😛

(The sort of game that makes you fail over and over again, right?)

[devout vault]

Yep

Roguelike (or I guess roguelite in this case)

Hades was fun, I got distracted like normal before I got really into it

My play time is 62 minutes according to steam

[sand frost]

I always thought that meant that you’re a DnD style Rogue

(I have been corrected on this point)

[devout vault]

😛

[sand frost]

(But the connection remains in my brain)

[devout vault]

To be fair, you could use the word like that too I guess. Though I'd do rogue-like instead of roguelike

[dusty pollen]

you are supposed to improve in between runs (both in terms of stats and your skill as a player) but I am very bad at games despite having god mode on

[sand frost]

My friend got me to play a cute game where you color in the world

[devout vault]

Yeah (though the stats thing only applies to roguelites, not roguelikes)

[sand frost]

It has a boss fight somewhere in it

[devout vault]

????

[sand frost]

My friend was shocked to learn it’s possible to fail the boss fight

I am extremely bad at boss fights

[devout vault]

That's a mood. I don't enjoy difficulty for the sake of it, I usually play on easy on games with difficulty settings 😛

[dusty pollen]

I am so uncoordinated in video games half the time my brain refuses to parse what's going on on-screen

[devout vault]

So, how does a coloring game have a boss fight.

And how do you lose said boss fight

[dusty pollen]

I've almost maxed out god mode and it's still too tricky for me

[devout vault]

Wait, what is god mode in the context of Hades? Maxing it out?

For some reason I assumed you meant invincible/one shot kills/etc. sort of god mode (admittedly I was wondering how you had difficulty with god mode since that's how I understood it)

[dusty pollen]

god mode is a difficulty toggle that makes you more powerful each time you die by making you a certain percentage less vulnerable to attacks. I believe it maxes out at 80%

[devout vault]

Huh

[dusty pollen]

yeah, they're definitely using the term wrong

but that's what it's called in-game

[rain apex]

its tongue in cheek easy mode

[dusty pollen]

not easy enough apparently

[devout vault]

Eh, I can understand why they call it that given the setting

[rain apex]

the other end is hell mode

[dusty pollen]

anyway I'm 40 runs in and I still haven't gotten past the bosses at the end of elysium

[rain apex]

you need to be more gay than them

thats how it works

[devout vault]

Kinda weird since isn't the plot of the game you trying to escape the underworld?

[dusty pollen]

they did not stop to check my gaydentials

[rain apex]

yea so hell is like idk, underworld is extra bad

[rotund violet]

I didn't feel like Hades was difficult for difficulty's sake, I felt like it was difficult because of janky controls and game mechanics (which is worse than being intentionally difficult).

[devout vault]

I didn't mean to imply Hades in particular was, just that there are games that seem to be that way (don't like soulslikes, for example)

[rain apex]

im not good at hades so i go for the builds-designed-for-people-bad-at-game

[rotund violet]

I do think a lot of games try to employ the Soulslike difficulty mechanics without a good understanding of where they're appropriate, or in what context they actually feel like real difficulty vs. fake difficulty.

Like, Souls has the campfire mechanic that respawns all enemies, but that is coupled with enemies not respawning under any other circumstances, and a rather low enemy density in general. It's not so hot when adopted by games that respawn huge trash mobs.

Same deal with dodge and perfect-dodge/perfect-parry mechanics, if done right it feels great (Dead Cells did it well) but if done badly (and I count Hades among those with poor dodge mechanics in general) it's just pure jank.

Parry mechanic in Witcher 3 was fantastic, very forgiving. Parry mechanic in Tunic, utter garbage, even though I loved the other aspects of that game.

[supple ether]

Have you read the antimemetics division stuff?

[devout vault]

I wasn't reading a specific section, I was going through the linked-pages-rebbithole

When I forced myself to go to bed I was reading through the 914 experiment logs but realized it was 4:30 AM and there was waaaaaay too much left

[supple ether]

Rip

[sand frost]

Chicory: A Colorful Tale

[safe dragon]

I don't understand why teams is so bad

how is it doing this

I recently ran into a bizarre limitation in teams where you apparently can't upload two files with the same name in the same chat

if you upload a file with the same name as one you've uploaded in the past it will automatically rename it and add a number at the end

[ivory shadow]

Teams is impressive (derogatory).

[safe dragon]

I've been exposed to several more Microsoft programs with this new job and all of them have been bad

[ivory shadow]

Microsoft has a couple hits but most of their software is bad

[safe dragon]

SharePoint has practically ruined my team lead's life at this point as he's trying to get it to work again

[sonic mirage]

I bugged my work about not having an instant messaging platform for years and they finally settled on Mattermost since you can self-host. They rejected Teams and were so-so on Slack, but I didn't get to do any of the testing of either. Mattermost is fine, it's similar to Discord in a number of ways but is missing a few features like replies that show the message you're replying to.

[safe dragon]

I quite liked slack

[sonic mirage]

The only reply-type thing it has is where it makes a new thread, but that makes conversations all disjointed unless you get a plugin that shows the thread replies inline in the original channel

For open source it's pretty good though.

[safe dragon]

slack has a funky checkbox to post thread messages in the regular chat as well

we rarely used it but it was a thing

[pliant snow]

Teams' one redeeming quality is that I don't have to use Skype at work anymore

[dusty pollen]

I thought for a moment you were saying you didn’t understand why people hated it and got very confused

[marble jewel]

My company did the switch from Slack to Teams. I don't find it too different, but I do miss the overall way Slack organized things.

[sand frost]

I heard they’re killing Skype

So you’d be free from it either way!

[marble jewel]

One annoyance about Slack was that no one in the company ever got used to threaded conversations, so every reply was always posted on the main thread

[sand frost]

I once joined a teams call where it put me into haunted audio purgatory

[dusty pollen]

favourite thing I know about teams is that on linux in the pulse audio config window it’s called Skype because they didn’t rename it properly when they just dumped all their old skype code in

[sand frost]

I could see/hear them but they couldn’t hear me or something like that

I had to leave and rejoin to fix it

[marble jewel]

Also I hate the way Teams (for business) embeds this social network type thing - Viva Engage.

It feels so half-baked. Like it's just a website embedded in an application, with separate notifications, and a whole different design language.

[dusty pollen]

I believe technically slack does offer custom hosting to organisations but it requires a special quote etc

iirc IBM had their own hosted slack org

[sonic mirage]

Yeah MM is just straight open source and has self-hosting as a main feature

Plus has mobile apps that can work with your self-hosting

For a small company that's more than good enough for internal chit chat

Well I guess we technically have one client with access to one channel just for them so they can chat with us, but besides that all internal

[safe dragon]

easily by far the worst thing about teams however is that the emotes are terrible

none of them look right

many of them are animated which seems to just make them worse

I feel like my ability to express myself has been damaged

[marble jewel]

Thankfully they added custom emote support, and so I have been using more of my company's emotes than the default ones

[safe dragon]

at my old job one of the custom emotes was a picture of my face photoshopped into a sun

that job had an "employee of the quarter" thing called "het zonnetje van de business update"(the sun of the business update)... One time that employee turned out to be me so some other dev thought it'd be funny to photoshop my face onto a sun

I don't trust custom emotes anymore

you might end up being immortalized as some kind of teletubbyesque sun face

[rotund violet]

I used to really like Slack, they had the best platform by far, but there were too many privacy and security concerns for it to stay viable for large/serious corporations, and too many... other issues with their management and staff to stay attractive as a personal or small-time option.

Pumble is not bad for the latter. For the former, choices seem to be generally limited to MS Teams, Google Chat or anything self-hosted like Mattermost.

[safe dragon]

idk man

[ivory shadow]

But when is the video "Why won't Framework shut up about their Mac Mini competitor no one cares about" coming out

[safe dragon]

I'm afraid that video will require a third party

[ivory shadow]

Also, I realizing saying no one cares about it is hyperbole but I do not care. They have put out messages that the desktop is their best selling product from their announcement when you literally can't even order the Framework 12 yet.

They're just being deceptive marketing idiots about it

The focus on desktops when desktops already exist in loads of places is just so disappointing and annoying.

[safe dragon]

I'm not surprised a completely new product sold better than a hardware refresh of your existing laptop

or, a key

[ivory shadow]

Right?

Also did they add together people ordering just the mainboard with people ordering a fresh Framework 13 when they made those numbers?

[fleet wren]

finally, a Steam Machine successor

[ivory shadow]

Just what we need a steam machine with a bad cpu to gpu ratio that can't be meaningfully upgraded

[safe dragon]

compared to a mac mini it's pretty upgradeable...

the lowest bar known to man

but a bar

it does not actively brick your system if you put in different storage

[rotund violet]

I don't want people to take this the wrong way - I personally know next to nothing about Framework and have no opinion on their builds - but in terms of public interest, I have never met anyone outside this very channel, either in person or online, who cares about Framework in general or even knows they exist.

Clearly there is some interest if the video has 38K views but it seems to be a very tiny, very enthusiastic niche.

[safe dragon]

they're also popular in the other extremely programming nerd heavy off topic channel I frequent!

[ivory shadow]

Framework only being popular in very nerdy spaces is actually one of the reasons I hate the framework desktop.

They aren't going to compete with Apple in a meaningful way outside of a very specific niche of nerds.

While making their laptops more affordable has a lot more potential to catch on for a wider userbase.

The Framework 12 seems pretty interesting on that front.

[rain apex]

One time i was at airport going through security and the TSA person asked about my framework laptop

It was very surreal

[dusty pollen]

tbh as someone who knows very little about them, I'm just confused - isn't their whole schtick upgradable laptops? which is good, it's something people want and there's very little supply of. But why are they making desktops (which are already possible to build from individual parts, so there's no particular demand/need they'll be satisfying), and why are those desktops not upgradeable? it seems so misguided

it's like they have no idea why people like them any more

and just want to be a "computer company"

[safe dragon]

I'm afraid the video didn't really clarify anything either

it boils down to "we saw the new highest end mobile processor for amd and needed to do something with it"

[ivory shadow]

(Nevermind that they did do something. They made a laptop motherboard with it.)

[safe dragon]

nah they didn't. that's not the Max ones

[crystal wren]

I do think they at least still have the massive VRAM potential? So that's... something? Maybe?

Well, I say "VRAM"...

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, which doesn't make sense. Maybe the 13 is just too small? Need more battery and/or thermal dissipation for it to work?

[camera zooms in on the Framework 16, covered in cobwebs, as crickets chirp nearby]

[crystal wren]

(With a single new key on top.)

[safe dragon]

it's still baffling to me that the 16" got nothing

(I'm not counting the key)

[sonic mirage]

The desktop is about doing larger AI workloads more affordably. It's all about the memory size combined with throughput. To my knowledge, you can't get that kind capability outside of much more expensive custom hardware. The whole point is that it's an option that didn't exist before this AMD chip. If you don't care about AI, then it's not like they stopped making their other products for this, so why are people so bent out of shape about this?

You can't just go buy mobile processors; they have to be on a board. People use mobile CPUs on mini-ITX boards from AliExpress for low power NAS builds in the same way for more efficiency.

[ivory shadow]

Because Framework is diversifying when their main business still needs a lot of work.

And it's over AI bullshit

[sonic mirage]

What needs a lot of work? They've done what, 7 gens of the 13" now?

Probably a 16" refresh coming up soon too

People keep bringin up no 16" announcement happened but they said that they're just getting started with it. They probably couldn't handle refreshing 13" and 16" at the same time due to both company size and manufacturing capacity, plus I wouldn't be surprised if they're doing a number of revisions to the 16" before the second gen. A 13" refresh in spring and 16" in fall each year would probably be a good cadence to get on.

[ivory shadow]

They need customers. They need scale. They need to bring prices down to the point that they can attract more customers. The average person doesn't care that a laptop is sustainable and repairable. They just see something that costs literally twice as much as other similar machines.

I'm hoping the Framework 12 is a good step in the right direction of a more affordable machine but they won't say anything about that and they won't shut up about the desktop.

[sonic mirage]

I've seen one video and one email about the desktop

Yeah I think the 12 could get them a lot more customers; should be great for schools

From what I've seen they've been scaling up, I think I saw they were adding more manufacturing space and countries that they ship to not too long ago. Growth can be a double edged sword, though; you have to not overextend or expand when you're not close to supporting that growth with sales.

[safe dragon]

I mean it's kinda shitty to be like "we're just getting started" for the 16" only to then basically not mention it again

[sonic mirage]

I prefer companies not promise things before they are anywhere near delivering or when they're not 100% set on their plan. If the choice is silence or Peter Molyneux I'll always take silence.

If they aren't set on specifics and don't have a timeline, what else can they say?

Also keep in mind AMD just delayed their GPU launch at the last minute by 2 months, only just launching their cards last week. This could also be supply chain issues like that

[dusty pollen]

like I said, the thing I don't get is why they are the ones making the AI-optimized non-upgradeable desktop. It makes sense to me that someone is, but it seems to be going against what was until now kind of their mission? it doesn't feel like a logical next step, so now in my head as someone not very familiar with them, the impression I have is "framework are moving away from upgradeability", which is either true which seems meh, or false which means it's not a great move for their image

and I have no idea which one it is, all I know is that it made them seem more like "generic tech company number one hundred and eight" in my head and I'm sure I'm not the only one

(also, in practice, most AI stuff is optimised to run on multiple machines through cloud computing etc because home computers, even ones with special chips, are typically just not powerful enough, so I'm still not sure who this is for. Like I'm sure some things will be easier, but is it for people who are specifically running intensive AI algorithms on their own machines?)

[safe dragon]

whatever the case, I do hope it's not an omen of the direction they're taking

[sonic mirage]

The only thing not upgradeable is the memory, because it's in AMD's chip. The rest is standard PC stuff

It's basically as upgradeable as you can make that platform, and in a form factor to where you can get the most out of the chip, rather than being stuck in a throttling laptop.

The fact that it's also a decent gaming mini PC is more like a happy coincidence of it being packed with GPU cores and VRAM, but it does have an audience for that use case, though likely smaller than AI stuff

[safe dragon]

it's a neat little mini pc

[crystal wren]

And just the cheapest configuration's mainboard is genuinely not noo badly priced.

[lethal walrus]

The thing I hate is they all look fine from a design standpoint
I actually quite like rust in nodes font

[dusty pollen]

ooo I think I have some of those!

wait no

I love this, hate this, and am too tired to deal with this all at once

[safe dragon]

the pip logo is so clean

[lethal walrus]

npm pip or pip pip?

npm pip does look very good

[dusty pollen]

I'd say ReactJS, pip, and JavaScript are the most convincing. And GitHub

[safe dragon]

npm pip yes

[cinder karma]

My god, Feris

What happened to you

[dusty pollen]

is Feris the go gopher

[cinder karma]

Good morning!!!!!

[dusty pollen]

good evening!

[safe dragon]

ferris is the rust crab

so yes it's the go gopher

[dusty pollen]

does the go gopher even have a name

[safe dragon]

nope

[dusty pollen]

sad

[rotund violet]

Disturbing strooping going on here.

[rotund violet]

As a philistine, dirt-covered consumer I must indeed confirm that if it costs as much as an M3 or even M4 Macbook, then I am getting the Macbook every time.

[marble jewel]

Dang, everything has a multiverse nowadays

[crystal wren]

https://www.hackster.io/news/silicon-labs-unveils-the-tiny-bg29-bluetooth-low-energy-microcontrollers-for-smart-teeth-and-more-ad5a9b640c37

Smart teeth.

That's a new one.

[dusty pollen]

why didn't that link lead to an Onion article

[safe dragon]

it's unfortunate

[marble jewel]

Nice, I can be 28 teeth closer to being a full on cyborg

[safe dragon]

my dentist keeps telling me I should avoid needing artificial teeth

[pliant snow]

That's probably good advice

[safe dragon]

but how will I get smart teeth then

[cinder karma]

Teeth are the one thing I hope we replace with materials science in the future

I yearn for a time when I can have no cavities

[dusty pollen]

the difference in trust I have for materials science vs computer science is immense like I will happily consider this but please keep all computers away from anything embedded in my body--

-# but also aren't those just dentures

[cinder karma]

Not exactly

I was more thinking crowns ngl

Also, we love our materials scientists

Without them the world wouldn't go around. Or. Uh. I would have great difficulty finding employment.

sure doesn't understand half of the materials stuff asml does

[dusty pollen]

in uni, most of our computer labs were done in two labs the CS department had taking up the eighth floor of their department building.

They had a nice building. Colourful. Didn't look like the backrooms but well-lit. Had signs for where to go and a receptionist who was willing to talk to you.

[sand frost]

I don’t trust materials science with my teeth unless I have to xD

I really have distrust of material interfaces

[cinder karma]

Morning, Elizabeth!

[dusty pollen]

is that where two materials join? because true tbh

[sand frost]

Yes

[dusty pollen]

idk I both trust medicine and know enough to avoid interacting with it unless necessary there's a reason why many medical professionals often personally don't go for elective procedures if they can avoid them

[sand frost]

Different coefficients of thermal expansion fills me with doubt

Like, I do accept that sometimes it has to be done

But I don’t do it if I have a choice

(I fainted and broke a tooth once and at that time I was offered choices)

[dusty pollen]

I think with fully replacing teeth it's the area I would trust it the most because they fundamentally are already a material embedded into something else, but other things are scary

[cinder karma]

What thermal expansion happens in my mouth, other than for like ice cream

I'm willing to give up ice cream if it means no more cavities

[devout vault]

Blasphemy

(I don't eat a lot of ice cream, but I wouldn't want to give it up)

Also, at what point is thermal expansion a problem. I like my water really really really cold

[cinder karma]

Even really really cold we're not talking more than delta 50 degrees C

[sand frost]

Yeah but I feel like repeated small stresses make fractures

[devout vault]

If my water isn't about to turn into ice I don't want it (/s.... mostly)

[sand frost]

I also am a little suspicious that engineered ceramics cured in place in a relatively uncontrolled process environment may not be as strong as teeth

Let alone matching well enough not to induce stresses

[dusty pollen]

what if someone dares me to gurgle boiling water

[devout vault]

Clearly we just need to get 3d 'bone' printing (I know teeth aren't technically bones)

[dusty pollen]

I'm pretty sure they are?

[devout vault]

That depends, what's the penalty for not taking the dare

[devout vault]

Really? I heard there was progress on organs, I didn't realize bones were doable. Is it 'prroduction ready' so to speak?

[sand frost]

Organs are extremely difficult and “progress” afaik just means “1 step above abject failure”

[dusty pollen]

oh, looks like they aren't, interesting I've been hearing a bunch of doctors online call them bones recently which is why I thought that

[dusty pollen]

they call you a coward

oh I meant I was pretty sure they were bones lmao

[devout vault]

Hmm. Being known as a coward, or ruining your 'teeth'.... tough decision

[devout vault]

Ahhh

[sand frost]

I think they’re different from bones in a couple fundamental ways

[devout vault]

Yeah, I thought they were bones for the longest time too

[sand frost]

Bones have internal marrow structures

Teeth have weird teeth pulp stuff and lots of nerves inside I think

[devout vault]

'weird teeth pulp stuff' sounds horrifying

[sand frost]

I would expect 3D printing bones to happen way before organs

Oh yeah teeth are the stuff of nightmares imo

Like marrow is still hard but at least it doesn’t need the full on vasculature of organs

[cinder karma]

Bones have a lot of maintenance cells toooo

I thought liver would be first

Sack of metabolism that one is

[dusty pollen]

having heard the most recent scandal with artificial organs and that doctor who faked a bunch of results about his artificial tracheas and how harmful they actually were, I hope both are very far away

[devout vault]

Oh no, I didn't hear about that

[sand frost]

Yikes

[dusty pollen]

it's not actually THAT recent but iirc that guy did a LOT of academic fraud

[sand frost]

Better or worse than Parkinson’s scandal

[cinder karma]

Well, multi nucleic two mutations from cancer sack of metabolism

[dusty pollen]

idk that one

[cinder karma]

Oh that guy

[devout vault]

I wish we could get lungs really soon (like within the next year or so ideally), mainly because my twin is definitely going to need a double lung transplant at some point (if not soon)

[dusty pollen]

yay, confirmation I wasn't imagining it!

[sand frost]

https://apnews.com/article/misconduct-alzheimers-parkinsons-research-nih-297a61dc69cb18965015381a911197ec I think this is the Parkinson’s guy

[devout vault]

(No, not from smoking, born with a bunch of problems combined with doctors doing unwise things early on to try and get him to survive - pretty sure there was better ways but I don't know all the details, though I'm pretty sure a lot of the stuff they did isn't done anymore nowadays. And no, my mom didn't smoke either)

[sand frost]

But basically image manip fraud

[cinder karma]

Dr. Death did a season on him

[dusty pollen]

as far as I can tell, trachea guy did literally everything this guy did and more

while also experimenting on real patients

[devout vault]

Photoshop fraud, that's a new one /s

(I imagine it wasn't that simple)

[devout vault]

YIKES

[dusty pollen]

yup

[sand frost]

The Parkinson’s fraud was devastating because other people had built their work on his and whole branches of Parkinson’s research over a long time were basically rendered useless

[dusty pollen]

oh, god that's really bad too

[sand frost]

That part is probably worse!!

[dusty pollen]

trachea guy was suspected by several colleagues for a while and afaik didn't misdirect a ton of resulting research like that

[sand frost]

I didn’t look too deep but i actually think it was this simple/rotating images (even simpler)

Like the basic problems in Parkinson’s include not even knowing how Parkinson’s works

And this guy I think basically faked some promising results about understanding how it works

[cinder karma]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Paolo_Macchiarini

[devout vault]

Wait, rotating the whole image, or subsections in the image?

[devout vault]

Can't that be said for almost all brain stuff

[cinder karma]

Copy paste gel bands from one location to another iirc

Editing gels

It's baddddd

[dusty pollen]

there were like three patients iirc?

and ngl I'm shocked it got as far as it did because even I heard what the idea was and immediately thought "there's no way this would actually work though, right?"

it was something about making a framework out of 3d printed material then just letting some stem cells in there without any way to force them to specialise into a trachea? it was so weird

[cinder karma]

Hmmm

Man really believed in the extracellular matrix huh

[dusty pollen]

eight, not three, apparently

[cinder karma]

Tbh I'm more thinking liver will be first

It's a fucking sack of metabolism that is two mutations away from cancer on a good day anyways

[dusty pollen]

appendix will be first

[cinder karma]

Crazy multinucleic shit

[dusty pollen]

not as a replacement, but so people could have two

[cinder karma]

Livers are amazing

[devout vault]

I have no idea what this means but that sounds kinda fascinating

[cinder karma]

https://pmc.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov/articles/PMC5671579/

[devout vault]

Just the discord embed summary has too many sciency words

[cinder karma]

Liver cells do crazy shit with their DNA

It's amazing

[devout vault]

Seems like DNA in general to be honest

And biology in general

[sand frost]

This would be my summary as well

[cinder karma]

So like

For the fucking sake of space you often will photoshop your gel images

You're just expected to do it honestly

Like you would remove irrelevant columns and also probably a bunch of vertical space that is meaningless

But you're not supposed to copy and paste a band to a location it isn't

[sand frost]

That makes sense

Like, cropping images or straightening images and such seems pretty normal

Like I’ve cropped and annotated a lot of pictures

[dusty pollen]

honestly I would want there to be a requirement to add an archive of unedited photos for these reasons. Just make it a little bit harder to hide lies

like it should be standard for experiments to release the raw data imo

[ivory shadow]

What a topic to wake up to after a bad night's sleep

[dusty pollen]

bad nights' sleep are the matrix /j

[supple ether]

I've been having such fucked up dreams lately

[marble jewel]

I got two sleeps last night. 4 hours then restlessness, then second sleep.

[ivory shadow]

I just couldn't fall asleep, I was being too ADHD

[supple ether]

Mood

[ivory shadow]

Brain would not stop

[supple ether]

Adhd is evil sometimes

I really need to try medication I really think it would help me

[dusty pollen]

it's the reason my brain is currently melting 😭

medication is a double-edged sword

[supple ether]

Yeah but the executive dysfunction is killing me

[dusty pollen]

right now I forgot to take it earlier today and it melted my brain to the point I can't get myself to take it many hours later because I'm stuck

oh yeah I'm not anti-meds, I'm on them lmao

they just give you a different type of adhd fun

[cyan shadow]

you too, huh

[supple ether]

Last time I was on meds I setup up alarms for it on my phone

[cyan shadow]

Mine are due to heating up too much while sleeping though

[dusty pollen]

problem is I missed the alarms today

[cyan shadow]

vicious cycle of "turn heater on because cold as hell only to boil under the blanket like dumpling filling"

[wary oriole]

hi, would anyone have the skill and desire to create a modding UI software that would permit loading modding framework mods such as content patcher, expanded storage, craft anything framework, etc, etc and design a UI that allows programming visually for those, using correct format and entries, including default assets and custom ones, from predetermined logic and dropdown menus? Could even have animated sprites preview.
I think it would be an incredibly beneficial tool to have for the SDV modding community, but IDK how much work it would really take and I am not a good coder. Just throwing ideas out there and seeing what people think of it.

[marble jewel]

I’ll do it for $10,000

[supple ether]

I'm working on a no-code content tool for cp already, but it's a big project

[dusty pollen]

time for me to dip from this channel too lmao

[wary oriole]

best i can do is 10

[wary oriole]

woudl you mind sharing info if you have anything uploaded?

[dusty pollen]

that's not even going to get you a portrait commissioned ngl

[cyan shadow]

no indeed

[supple ether]

It's not in a usable state yet

[wary oriole]

im not asking to commission im asking on the concept and feasibility

[marble jewel]

It can be done

[cyan shadow]

it has been done to an extent, even

but any tool that exists so far has had severe limitations

Coriel's NPC Creator allows for a very barebones NPC, for example
There have been Content Patcher build-a-mods, but they don't handle things like dynamic tokens and such

[supple ether]

There's many hours of work left in it and I only have 10-15 hrs/week to work on it, so it probably won't be finished until late this year at the earliest

I can afford to dedicate more time to it if I can use it as a source of income, but otherwise my efforts to make a living will take up the majority of my time

[dusty pollen]

it would also have to be developed for specific frameworks, it can't just be made to support any framework arbitrarily. Idk which framework(s) wren is planning on supporting, but I'd be surprised if it's your full list

[wary oriole]

dynamic tokens is stuff that update in real time? do you have a link?

[wary oriole]

yeah honestly i was just looking up the framework keyword theres a ton of results. supporting the big ones would already be huge

[dusty pollen]

for context, as far as I can tell, wren's tool (which is taking them many, many hours as an experienced developer) is content patcher only

[supple ether]

Yes

[dusty pollen]

you want like all the biggest framework mods. That would likely have to be an effort of a full team over several months.

[crystal wren]

I certainly poked at and toyed with the idea! I even have a Nexus page reserved for it that will probably never happen.

[cyan shadow]

dynamic tokens are content patcher tokens - they're used when you want multiple value options

[wary oriole]

could probably be sped up with ai coding ngl, if you train it on existing framework mods and their dependencies

[dusty pollen]

no, it couldn't lmao

[crystal wren]

(And I'm talking reserved for a long time: https://www.nexusmods.com/stardewvalley/mods/9009)

[dusty pollen]

listen to the many experienced developers in this channel when they tell you that that will not shorten the work in any way

[rain apex]

9009 wow

[supple ether]

To be clear it would be much faster to make a simple, shitty json gui tool, but that would not make things much easier than just writing json directly

[rain apex]

Personally im hoping sinz's intellisense for cp exists

I prefer seeing actual json but with crutches so i can copy less code

[wary oriole]

everything is possible

[crystal wren]

Using Content Patcher's schema, you can even get most of the way to autocompletion for its basic format.

[rain apex]

Why don't you do it then

[cyan shadow]

that depends entirely on whether the license for the framework allows that or not, to say nothing of the fact that code written purely by AI does not... function very well.

[dusty pollen]

oh are we back to that reality isn't real thing

in that case, just perceive that the mod already exists

[rain apex]

I don't think anyone disagree that it can exist, but reality is that it doesn't currently exist

[cyan shadow]

I'm not a programmer, but speaking from a purely IP perspective, that's a can of worms I wouldn't wanna touch at all if I were thinking of looking into this as a project

[rain apex]

Make it exist with your own sweat and blood or die trying

[wary oriole]

i fully understand it wouldnt be a two weeks project but saying its impossible is disingenously biased against ai. yes it would be even more work to train it, but the results would compound logarithmically once the base is created

[strange copper]

Every time I consider licensing my work to mit or something I remmeber things like this

[supple ether]

Programming is not about writing code, it's about the structural understanding required to solve programming problems. AI is essentially autocomplete on steroids - it does not and cannot reason, all it can do is copy-paste the most commonly used code

[rain apex]

The data is not even natural language tho it's just c# types

[crystal wren]

Using AI for this would be like using a grinding wheel to cut wood to make a desk.

[dusty pollen]

You are badly misunderstanding what AI could contribute to this

[rain apex]

You can just get the real structure with some reflection

[wary oriole]

ai is neural network machine learning it can learn anything that functions procedurally, its not just a mere autocomplete feature rofl

[strange copper]

Well hey now it's got a little bit of randomness in it /lh

[wary oriole]

there are ai bots that play rocket league better than pros, anything can be done

[dusty pollen]

yeah, like that. Badly misunderstanding

[marble jewel]

Dang, that sounds so easy. You should do it yourself and then become rich by selling it to others like you.

[dusty pollen]

also "AI is neural network machine learning" is fifteen levels of incorrect

[supple ether]

If ai truly worked well for code, they would've trained it on compiled binaries and not human-readable code

[cyan shadow]

my entire thesis would be redundant if it really was that simple, honestly

[dusty pollen]

playing rocket league is so much of an easier task than going what you're asking for

that one most likely is a neural net

[hoary oasis]

If AI worked well for code, the trash it spits out for my brother wouldn't need hours of rewriting to be usable

[wary oriole]

yeah and ill get back to rl and wait for ue5 upgrade to map maps with a good game engine

[cyan shadow]

(AI in mental healthcare, half my argument is the risk factor and the remaining half is the privacy issues)

[crystal wren]

But that's not the type of AI that's being discussed here, to be clear. When you're saying "AI coding", you're talking about generative AI that is nothing but a "what most likely follows the previous text?" statistical machine.

[supple ether]

Neural nets are not the same as a transformer model. And neural nets also don't reason, they just match outputs to inputs

[wary oriole]

so tired of manual artists getting threatened by ai, to the point of becoming disrespectful when discussions around it arise

[strange copper]

It's gotta image recognize so probably

[dusty pollen]

it's not impossible, it just wouldn't help

[dusty pollen]

(the neural net also makes sense for game control outputs in general)

[sand frost]

Lots of image stuff is convolutional neural nets but not all

[cyan shadow]

[wary oriole]

its like all those people in art school realizing their technical skills wont pay the tuition fee

[dusty pollen]

AI isn't threatening "manual" (human) artists because AI is a tool. The theft of their work and the insistence by companies to replace artists is threatening human artists.

[wary oriole]

i get that, but many don't

[sand frost]

If it’s playing a game you honestly don’t need ML since the possible inputs are small and finite

[wary oriole]

a tool is just something that makes the human more productive

[dusty pollen]

You clearly don't get that, because you insist it's a good thing.

[wary oriole]

stop fearing ai or claiming it will never get where it is needed

[dusty pollen]

Art isn't about productivity, and AI art issues aren't about technical skills

[wary oriole]

photoshop replaced painters

[dusty pollen]

what?

[wary oriole]

you can still paint

[vagrant basalt]

What

[wary oriole]

but a pro uses photoshop

[harsh gate]

no tf they did not

[vagrant basalt]

What

[fleet wren]

what

[vagrant basalt]

LOL

[dusty pollen]

...what reality are you in

[harsh gate]

what are you on about ????

[wary oriole]

im on technological advancements to human abilities

[cyan shadow]

[wary oriole]

a smart person doesnt spend 10000h learning something that will get automated in 5 years

[supple ether]

I use pencil and ink to draw still

[harsh gate]

technological advancements founded on theft is not sustainable

[wary oriole]

ofc you can, you don't cry about photoshop when you draw with pencil, that's my whole point

[dusty pollen]

oh yeah, I'm going to stop self-improvement because in the future, a computer will be able to do what I do instead of me

[wary oriole]

just improve where it matters

[dusty pollen]

so I can do the dishes while a robot paints

[wary oriole]

to grow along tech

[severe badge]

wait, what did i learn mental arithmetic for

[wary oriole]

dont swim against the stream

[crystal wren]

If this is coming from that recent "vibe coding" video...

[cyan shadow]

I don't think anyone here is opposed to AI specifically, but to developments occurring entirely unregulated, which is now causing issues that need to be solved by regulation before developments can improve

If generative AI didn't use copyrighted material, no one here would be opposed

[harsh gate]

asking AI to do things for you in general is just an excuse to pump things out instantly because you dont actually enjoy the process lol

[supple ether]

Pack it in lads we've gone full kool-aid

[cyan shadow]

In the context of art - the problem is not that we think AI is stealing the jobs of artists, it's that copyrighted work is being used to train the model

[strange copper]

Don't worry, they're gonna make it fair use soon :/

[wary oriole]

in this context we're talking of custom training so the morality of it is entirely up in the air

[crystal wren]

Yeah, training on 100% self-owned data is fine, of course.

[strange copper]

If you're training from scratch there's simply not enough data for this specific task

[crystal wren]

But the problem is that you need a metric shit ton of that data to get any useful models.

[strange copper]

And if you train on top of something to fine tune it then you're using who knows what data

[cyan shadow]

I think I mentioned earlier that training a custom model on frameworks depends on the license
If you're only using a data set you own the rights to, by all means, go ham

[crystal wren]

And supplementing an existing model with your own training data still runs in-

[crystal wren]

Reading my mind.

[cyan shadow]

actually, no! there's already precedent in the US indicating to the contrary
the EU.... I think I need to go browse eur-lex again, tbh

[wary oriole]

well yeah when working with sdv mods most of them are open source, and this is what it needs to be trained on, we're not talking about stealing artwork from famous artists here

just teaching the logic to a coder ai

[sand frost]

Many open source licenses require attribution

[dusty pollen]

anyway, this whole conversation is getting silly, so tl;dr:

• what you want will take a team of humans a while to complete
• if you can get an AI to do it, having obeyed all licenses and not used any pre-existing trained models, you're welcome to try it, but in the experience of all the experienced developers in this channel, it will take just as long and come up with unusable jank
• nobody is going to help you make said AI

[strange copper]

I want to have faith in the courts but no politics so I'll stop there

[wary oriole]

that could be an explicit clause of the software that it needs to embed links to used mods and resources

[dusty pollen]

I think that covers everything we covered about this idea lmao

[safe dragon]

wow this is almost on topic

[dusty pollen]

we got kicked from mmg

[cyan shadow]

code mods are often open source, yes
but the licenses used aren't always entirely as permissive as you think, so you really would have to check what you can do with them - attribution is one thing that's not easily addressed withAI training
some people also have custom license add-ons that explicitly bar use of their work to train AI models, though it's not as common

[dusty pollen]

[sand frost]

We could talk about open source licenses 😛 that’s practically on topic :0

[strange copper]

We talk licenses once a week lol

[crystal wren]

Fact and bottom line is that the vast majority of code generative AIs are trained on is probably GPL'd.

If your model spits out a sufficient portion of code from a GPL project to be identified and the owner sees and has the money to go after you, you could be screwed.

[sand frost]

Like I hate GPL for other reasons but it’s very strict about things

And I recall you need to then GPL your code?

[wary oriole]

i mean if you can get such tool working, its totally doable to have a specifial licensing type that makes you forfeit copyright rights and forces you to open source

[safe dragon]

buncha nerds

[crystal wren]

I will continue to push MPL 2.0.

[sand frost]

I think I did move to MPL with an extra clause

[dusty pollen]

what you're describing is copyleft (e.g. GPL) and the issue is whether or not it permits use by AI in the first place

[safe dragon]

I thought that was the My Little Pony 2.0 license honestly till I realized the P and L were the wrong way around

[crystal wren]

MPL 2.0 for framework-type mods, and MIT for more general mods is my opinion.

[strange copper]

Is that the "you can contribute but don't be a bad person about distributing" one

[supple ether]

Hell yeah best license

[dusty pollen]

I need there to be a FAFO license

[wary oriole]

im pretty sure ai is allowed to use public data as long as it doesnt copy the original content it is fair use. training isnt about repeating what it was trained on, but its about teaching the correct variables and design patterns

[sand frost]

Nah I added a non commercial clause

[safe dragon]

a license name that itself infringes on a trademark would be interesting

[crystal wren]

Problem is that this just hasn't been fully tested in court.

[dusty pollen]

you're pretty sure about something that is highly debated with many experts leaning on the opposite side?

[wary oriole]

im pretty sure about the current status quo of regulations; anything can change at any moment

[sand frost]

Specifically because of curseforge

[wary oriole]

same thing with many many many fields online

[dusty pollen]

but that's not the status quo of regulations?

[supple ether]

AI is not magically exempt from copyright, but by God does openai wish it were

[strange copper]

REAL

[dusty pollen]

this conversation keeps briefly lapsing into reality and then veering wildly away from it

[safe dragon]

just like me thinking about my hobby projects

[dusty pollen]

I'm getting whiplash

[wary oriole]

ai image diffusion is infamous for using copyrighted images, but coding ai has heaps of open source code its not the same issue

[marble jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/bb20-big-brother-bbscottie-fight-watching-gif-12962262

[cyan shadow]

I'm a lawyer irl, studying technology law at a masters degree level at the moment - this is not true in law anywhere - courts have not yet completely caught up with IP matters related to this yet, but it's literally just an unregulated field - technically, "use" does not have to be a direct copy of the content or use of the content as is

[dusty pollen]

I'm not convinced you understand the law, how AI works, what open source is, and what copyright is

well, I'm convinced you don't

[hoary oasis]

None of the AI code I've seen has had any MIT license attached

[wary oriole]

in this context its ai trained for a specific program not general ai used for coding. it would simply be backend algs to facilitate implementing various frameworks automatically

[crystal wren]

And open source comes with myriad different requirements attached. GPL, for example, is infectious. Accidentally including GPL code could be catastrophic for a company.

[wary oriole]

the software can do the licensing

[sand frost]

What about that one time it just spat out pathos’ license or header or something

[dusty pollen]

yeah, see, you're proving me right, because that's all a bunch of meaningless buzzwords

[wary oriole]

if you say so

im out lol

[dusty pollen]

I do! I do indeed

[wary oriole]

gonna use my ai to make money

[cyan shadow]

software cannot do the licensing, no

[dusty pollen]

lmao good luck with that

[wary oriole]

legally

[supple ether]

Training is literally about repeating what it was trained on, just extrapolated to also cover this it wasn't trained on. Current genAI actually have the input fuzzed specifically to prevent exactly duplicating training inputs because of criticism of theft

[crystal wren]

I'm tempted to livestream trying to create a Stardew mod using nothing but AI just to illustrate how no the whole process and final quality will be.

[vagrant basalt]

Dangit I haven't got a no-AI clause in my licence. Noooooo I don't want to have to go through that whole process again

[dusty pollen]

why don't you go work on making AI help with legal issues? worked out fantastically for the last person who did. They found out just how much AI is protected by the law ;)

[cyan shadow]

(I can write one for you as practice for my IP exam if you want, aba)

[wary oriole]

there arent hundreds ways to write correct code when working with a framework, ofc it should repeat structure

[sand frost]

If you intend to train on content packs almost none of those are open source

None of mine are open source licensed, for example

[wary oriole]

just copy, edit, and train on your own edits, problem solved

[cyan shadow]

Content packs are by and large closed-source, yeah

[simple dragon]

I get the impression you haven't spent long writing in-depth content patcher packs

[severe badge]

I thought we landed on this topic because copying and editing was too hard

[strange copper]

But meta then you have to learn cp modding

[ivory shadow]

Hmm. When I finally get my license updated to include a no-Curseforge clause I should include a no-AI clause.

[dusty pollen]

wait, Elizabeth, you bring up an excellent point - it's not the frameworks themselves you need to train on, but mods using them

[supple ether]

Most do not contain a license which means they are ARR

[wary oriole]

regulatory laws on ai are just archaic systems trying to control progress its not compatible with full regularoty clarity, just look at crypto vs sec to see what i mean lol

[sand frost]

Oh boy

[cyan shadow]

I-

[dusty pollen]

oh my god

[crystal wren]

Okay, this is clearly not going to be constructive.

[dusty pollen]

this genuinely made me cackle

[crystal wren]

LET'S MOVE ON NOW.

[cyan shadow]

I think we've reached the natural conclusion of this conversation, yes

[dusty pollen]

okay, bye guys

[cyan shadow]

Instead, I come bearing Linux questions - if I wanted to essentially have a portable linux installation on an ssd, how much of a pain in the ass would that be

[crystal wren]

Not one, mostly!

[dusty pollen]

none!

you can even have one on a thumb drive

[cyan shadow]

Can I keep the thing completely isolated from the main hard drive of my laptop, then? (there be windows on it, for now)

[crystal wren]

Though thumb drives are, in my opinion, silly at this point.

Given M.2 NVMe drives and enclosures are so cheap nowadays.

[wary oriole]

it's called a liveusb and its easy to create with specific programs

[marble jewel]

Tell that to Unraid which (by default) is installed to a thumbdrive

[vagrant basalt]

But you can get thumb drives for free DH that's a very important consideration xD

[cyan shadow]

Was planning on an external SSD, yes

[marble jewel]

It takes extra work to run Unraid on an (internal) SSD

[wary oriole]

ntfs hard drive is better than fat16 usb for liveusb tho if you want a system that will carry on changes over time

[dusty pollen]

okay but is your nvme enclosure hot pink with a little label saying windows 10 on it?

in what world is ntfs better for literally anything linux

[ivory shadow]

I'm probably outdated, but I'm used to Linux refusing to mount NTFS partitions in read-write unless you make them, because NTFS can be a little flaky

[wary oriole]

it allows file sbigger than 4gb for one

[ivory shadow]

That would stop it messing with Windows

If you want files to be readable in Windows and Linux both you'll want an exFat partition.

There are ext drivers for Windows but they are... not good.

[crystal wren]

Like https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/sounix-m-2-behuizing-ngff-nvme-10gbps-externe-usb-c-ssd-behuizing-aluminum-zliver/9300000177456431/?bltgh=lJIsPQGXpdmFx0xqHhdBGg.n-PnWSHRQse9jiIE8mdGnQ_0_12.30.ProductTitle + https://www.bol.com/nl/nl/p/silicon-power-256gb-pcie-m-2-nvme-ssd-a60-gen3x4-r-w-up-to-2100-1200-mb-s-sp-silicon-power-internal-solid-state-drive/9300000183431805/?bltgh=lJIsPQGXpdmFx0xqHhdBGg.soJAKILhurV2Uu5MjHFAVA_0_12.13.ProductTitle, for instance @cyan shadow? Not vetted parts, just a general price idea!

[ivory shadow]

And NTFS's Linux drivers have never been the best.

[wary oriole]

true linux likes exfat i have experience mainly with windows, just wanted to say the default for usbs isnt ideal

since the question is about hard drive anyway

its doable

just gotta set the bios to load from usb before system drive

then as long as its plugged in it will boot

[crystal wren]

https://ersei.net/en/blog/fuse-root

Clearly the way.

[ivory shadow]

I just thought, you could technically mount an ext partition in Windows using Linux Subsystem for Windows. But you're jumping through so many hoops at that point just for a worse experience, lol

[wary oriole]

https://unetbootin.github.io/

[cyan shadow]

bless you for the bol links

[dusty pollen]

what unholy arcana have you cursed my eyes with this time, DH

[cyan shadow]

(I'm probably buying mine from CoolBlue, though, just so I can go to the shop and also grab dinner in the city centre)

[crystal wren]

(Yeah, I just went with the Netherlands default. )

[cyan shadow]

what the dickens is this

[ivory shadow]

(Are you speaking about the booting Linux from a remote fs or the Dutch? /s)

[cyan shadow]

okay how is that first ssd 20 euros

[dusty pollen]

you know what? yes

[cyan shadow]

no fucking way

[crystal wren]

SSDs are CHEAP now.

[dusty pollen]

yeah, I noticed earlier this month! 1tb nvme is only like £50

[wary oriole]

270eur for 4Tb m2 ssd in my laptop

[cyan shadow]

I'm gonna see if that first one is available at CoolBlue or MediaMarkt, then, so I can scoot down to the shops to get it instead of potentially dealing with PostNL

[crystal wren]

You'll almost certainly be able to find a more "normal" brand for not much more, so defintely look around a little.

And be sure to get an NVMe capable enclosure if you get an NVMe drive.

[cyan shadow]

oh wait the first link is just the housing, I read that wrong

[crystal wren]

The SSD is still about the same.

[cyan shadow]

a sign that I need a nap

[dusty pollen]

anyway, considering I've been trying to get up from my computer to take my meds for three hours and failing now, today is not the day for me to do code so I will take my meds, eat lunch, and play more Hades

[marble jewel]

Even a lot of external drives are a bit silly to purchase nowadays since under the hood they are just NVME or even cheap ones have thumb drives within their enclosures

[cyan shadow]

yeah the ssd is 24 euros for the 256gb one

[simple dragon]

HADES HADES HADES HADES

[cyan shadow]

is that enough...?

I thought I'd get at least 500

[dusty pollen]

I GOT PAST THE FINAL BOSS ONCE NOW

[crystal wren]

Won't cost much more to get 500GB, either.

[marble jewel]

LTT did an investigation on cheap external drives that did shady things like overreport their capacity

[cyan shadow]

(I'll probably be doing further research)

[dusty pollen]

iirc it was specifically thumb drives though and only from illegitimate, knockoff sources

[crystal wren]

https://www.coolblue.nl/en/product/952439/kioxia-exceria-g2-nvme-m-2-500-gb.html

500GB!

[marble jewel]

At least buying an NVME from a reputable company, you know exactly what you're getting and what you should expect in terms of performance and reliability

[wary oriole]

even ssd sometimes label their internal computing memory with the storage capacity so like instead of 4Tb you end up with 3.7Tb for instance

[dusty pollen]

that's not what we're talking about

[crystal wren]

I mean that's always been the case with storage for forever.

Because it's just how it... works.

[dusty pollen]

some USB sticks were misreporting their capacity to the OS so a drive with like a 100MB capacity was seen as 1GB, but most of your data would obviously get overwritten

[marble jewel]

How do you even filesystem?

[wary oriole]

but with ssd its bigger than hdd especially if it has many cells

[simple dragon]

Knockoff thumb drives claiming to be 1TB or something insane for 5$ are usually actually 1GB and some deceptive labelling

[rain lotus]

for the record i would be opposed, because art is inherently human and genAI cannot eliminate the biases of its creators so it will inevitably perpetuate toxic and -ist issues from those creators.

[ivory shadow]

I try to avoid buying SSDs from random companies, since storage working is important. Oh, but since we're talking SSDs, I should link the spreadsheet.

[crystal wren]

...saving this.

[simple dragon]

Ooooo

[wary oriole]

a musician taking inspiration from his favorite arists also breaks copyright law with that logic of trying to regulate every single reference of ai

aaaaand im out XD

[dusty pollen]

https://tenor.com/view/you-keep-using-that-word-serious-what-you-think-it-means-gif-14679437

[ivory shadow]

Musicians have been sued for copying other musicians before, successfully, so I'm not sure that's the point you hope it is.

[cyan shadow]

[wary oriole]

there are many trending songs that reuse tunes from other popular songs just slightly modified, how ai would do it

[cyan shadow]

that's licensed, done with authorisation

[dusty pollen]

-# 🧊 🧊 👶

[wary oriole]

you spend too much time in your law books

listen to more music

[cyan shadow]

sampling is a thing that's been done for decades, but to do it you buy a license from the copyright holder

[hoary oasis]

Ah yes, the popular "ice cube, ice cube, baby"