programmers-off-topic

[safe dragon]

so you have 4 hours for some emergency shopping

Gouda is definitely more "urban" with my local grocery store being open from 9:30 to 6 on sundays

essentially just 1 fulltime shift

I do very much appreciate how much the Netherlands seems to actually care about minimizing working hours

... unless you work in healthcare

poor souls

[cyan shadow]

the healthcare worker shortage genuinely scares me

although here the gps all scoot off home at 5 and then your only recourse is the hospital for absolute emergencies or the thingy
the whatzit
... how do you say it in English, even..
huisartsenspoedpost?

[safe dragon]

I think you'd normally just call it the ER

[cyan shadow]

right

that

[dusty pollen]

tbf I have manually calculated one once as an offset of a different one because I was too lazy to check a tool again

[safe dragon]

nice

technically the ER isn't the same thing as the huisartsenspoedpost but lord if I know if an equivalent even exists

[cyan shadow]

I dunno if it's an exact equivalent, yeah

I just know I've never had to use em

[safe dragon]

a GP office but for emergencies outside your regular GP's working hours

[dusty pollen]

(eink displays technically take no energy at all when the image is already set, they only use power to change them. It’s exactly the same for an eink display to show an image for three months as it is three seconds)

[safe dragon]

yeah that's why I think they'd be out of power very quickly when flashing

[cyan shadow]

the emergency GP

[safe dragon]

cause the screen would be refreshing constantly

[cyan shadow]

close enough

[safe dragon]

emergency GP office...

[dusty pollen]

argos?

we literally had that here haha

[cinder karma]

urgent care

in theory in the us they're supposed to be in between emergency care and your gp

in practice well

[dusty pollen]

urgent care changes from country to country, where I was born it was a triage center, and over here it’s almost the same as an A&E (aka an ER)

[safe dragon]

urgent care is a more generic word but I guess it's as close as we're going to get to an equivalent translation

urgent care in dutch would be spoedeisende hulp

[cinder karma]

I get the idea that medical care works differently in places with, you know, nonjank healthcare

like, I'm not sure when I would go to urgent care lol

[safe dragon]

literally translated "urgency demanding care"

[cinder karma]

perhaps if I fell and broke a bone

[safe dragon]

I went to urgent care when my vision suddenly gave out one day

[dusty pollen]

tbh the NHS is jank rn, just… not US levels of jank

I’ve been to A&E/urgent care many a time though

but never in an ambulance

[cinder karma]

I would go to the emergency room only if I thought I was dying

[rotund violet]

Yeah, that's exactly what urgent care is, sudden but non-life-threatening issues especially if they're on weekends.

[cinder karma]

I would go to urgent care for a small list of "okay, I need someone else to fix this real fast" things like "broken bone"

[dusty pollen]

that is, indeed, why I was there for a fair few of those times

[cinder karma]

everything else, I text my doctor

[dusty pollen]

your doctor accepts texts?

[cinder karma]

yes

[rotund violet]

I have never had a doctor who responds to texts on a Saturday.

(or at all, actually, they all have their apps and call trees you need to go through)

[dusty pollen]

huh. The GPs in my area barely accept phone calls to the receptionist rn

[safe dragon]

my GP these days requires us to make an appointment online, they don't really accept phone calls outside emergencies

[dusty pollen]

(not universal, it’s a mix of nhs privatisation ruining everything and this area having particularly bad GPs for some reason)

[safe dragon]

at a basic level dutch healthcare works not much different from the way it does in the US with private health insurance, a deductible and some other nonsense.
Beyond that basic level it definitely couldn't be more different but hey

the core concept is the same...

[dusty pollen]

they shut off their online system in this GP surgery lmao, phone call appointments only

[sand frost]

I went to urgent care when my ear was infected but like, I wasn’t dying or anything

It’s much cheaper than the ER usually

Plus you can book an appointment in many places

[safe dragon]

almost anything done at a hospital here would be required to be covered by health insurance so it doesn't really matter

[rotund violet]

I wouldn't go to ER unless I was literally on the brink of death. In fact, I wish they sold the equivalent of those Medic-Alert bracelets that says "don't take this person to ER under any circumstances ever".

[dusty pollen]

but yeah, asthma + panic attacks = going to A&E several times in my life. And then this year right when I came into this server was when I accidentally poured boiling water on myself and had to have dressing changes every few days, and the GP surgery being really shit like I said refused and said I should do it through the ER so that was another like, seven

I mean, you can write whatever you want on those bracelets so I’m sure you could, they just will probably ignore it if you’re unconscious

[safe dragon]

Had a funky situation where I got 1 wisdom tooth removed at the dentist office which costed me a fair bit but then the other 3 were removed at the hospital by a specialized oral surgeon and I paid nothing

[sand frost]

I’ve been to the ER when I couldn’t keep water down for over 12 hours, and honestly I shouldn’t have gone, I ended up fine

I’ll go to the ER in a heartbeat if I’m having anaphylaxis

Fortunately hasn’t happened

[cinder karma]

I think the other thing is that I don't get sick very often, tbh

[dusty pollen]

oh and one time with pneumonia when I was 7 when they kept me for three days and scarred me for life by not telling me that after they put a port into your arm, the needle doesn’t stay in your arm

[rotund violet]

Totally not an ER thing, maybe if you start approaching the 24 hour mark then yeah.

[sand frost]

I mean these incidents are mostly years apart

[sand frost]

There was other stuff going on that made me more suspicious

[dusty pollen]

ER is a knowing your body thing, if you get a sense that something may be really wrong, it’s a good reason to go

[sand frost]

(Potential intersections of medical stuff)

[rotund violet]

I remember some nasty norovirus type thing like 10 years ago, spent the whole night sleeping on the bathroom floor but that's all it was, one miserable night.

Well, "sleeping"

[sand frost]

Like it was either food poisoning or maybe sepsis of some kind, and one of those is fine and the other isn’t

The other problem is when you have a medical issue outside business hours sometimes ER is the only option

[dusty pollen]

my dad nearly got laughed out of an ER once for coming in with a lower right abdominal pain because “if it was appendicitis he would NOT be walking in on his own two feet”. Guess what it was

[sand frost]

And if it’s a kid at a summer camp you take the kid to the ER if they seem like they need it

Cause it’s not your kid and you gotta

[dusty pollen]

yeah, I think it’s like how schools here have to call an ambulance if a kid needs to go to a hospital, even if it’s not an ambulance-requiring emergency

[rotund violet]

See, this is where I think there's too much shitty paranoid information online. You look up the symptoms of "sepsis", and every single one of them except one is just a totally ordinary symptom of any short-term infection.

[sand frost]

I mean I had specific reasons to suspect internal infection

[cinder karma]

(I would trust Elizabeth's evaluation of the situation)

[sand frost]

I wasn’t just randomly guessing sepsis

[rotund violet]

"Go to the ER if you have ANY of these symptoms: fast heart rate, low blood pressure, fever, shaking/chills, clammy skin..." not so much.

[dusty pollen]

true, but sometimes, it is sepsis, you know? if someone feels like something is wrong given how they usually feel, what they know about their own medical history, and what is normal/normal as a random occurrence for them, there’s a decent chance something IS wrong and they shouldn’t be discounted

[sand frost]

It turned out I was not having fun internal bleeding/infections! So that was nice

[dusty pollen]

and they definitely shouldn’t be convinced not to seek out help

[sand frost]

The $700 bill for verifying this was less nice

[cinder karma]

I'm learning the weird thing is that I can text my pcp

[rotund violet]

Actually most people are usually horribly wrong about self-diagnosis, the chances of them correctly identifying threat level is very low, and doctors know this which is why they usually just prescribe the same stuff in response to every visit.

Like 95% of visits they know it's a temporary condition and just toss in some antibiotics to avoid being sued.

[safe dragon]

paracetamol and a good night sleep if it's a dutch doctor

[dusty pollen]

doctors are notoriously bad at spotting this, especially with minority groups, leading to extreme rates of missed diagnoses in everything up to (quite famously) heart attacks

[safe dragon]

you'd have to fight to get antibiotics here

[sand frost]

Yeah but also the ways to diagnose horrible internal bleeding problems are legitimately expensive (ultrasound)

[rotund violet]

Yeah, that's probably what American doctors would do too if it wasn't for all the malpractice suits.

[cinder karma]

...why is ultrasound that much lo;

my current annoyance with my dentist is that she xrays for EVERYTHNG

[sand frost]

ER + my stupid insurance

[cinder karma]

everything.

[dusty pollen]

I’m just never okay with telling people to doubt their own instincts about their bodies or to avoid asking for verification because so many people end up being missed because of these issues. Verification should be an acceptable policy.

[cinder karma]

I'm like "do you seriously have to"

[sand frost]

I called them and complained and nothing changed

[sand frost]

That’s weird

Mine only does the number insurance approved

So like idk once a year or two

[dusty pollen]

(a refusal to verify things is why, for example, three years BEFORE said hospitalisation with pneumonia my parents were told I was making up breathing issues for attention while the doctor never so much got up from behind his desk, making me have unmanaged asthma when I had pneumonia which put me at a much more serious risk)

[sand frost]

My main piece of advice for people in these situations since then has been 1. Go to urgent care 2. Make an urgent care appointment if possible 3. Don’t agree to imaging unless they explain why and you believe them, and ask how much it costs

[rotund violet]

That's a little strange. I just get the 2x/year. For other stuff they have this fancy macro lens camera thing taking super magnified photos.

[cinder karma]

one reason why I'm annoyed is that I work with radiation in my day job, so I'm careful to keep my outside-of-day-job dosage low

[sand frost]

Going in and getting an opinion is a relatively painless copay

But imaging seems to be where the massive bills come in

[rotund violet]

Although dental x-rays these days are really, really low radiation, so I wouldn't be worried about an extra one. (CTs, those are much scarier)

[dusty pollen]

for some people, doctors listen, do the right thing, and therefore it’s reasonable to tell them that they don’t always need to listen to their instincts. But for many people, being listened to by a doctor takes significant self-advocacy and multiple second opinions.

[sand frost]

My dentist also uses plain old optical imaging when I go in

Like they have little cameras to stick in my mouth

[dusty pollen]

I avoid x rays out of habit because I used to have to get multiple done every year so it was worth minimising any unnecessary ones

[sand frost]

Maybe you should get a new dentist?

[cinder karma]

she's not charging me more for the nine xrays while trying to place the post

nah, the major dental work is over, so

[sand frost]

Mine may or may not be out of network so I’m considering the pros and cons of switching

But they seem very on their stuff and dental insurance is trash either way

[cinder karma]

my dental insurance is actually quite decent at this job

[dusty pollen]

(admittedly, two-three x rays a year is still nowhere NEAR an issue, it was just something we tried to reduce lmao. Have you guys seen that one youtuber who put together an old x-ray machine in his garage and got annoyed when people where mad at him though?)

[rotund violet]

Dental insurance actually doesn't seem to be worth it unless it comes with orthodontics and you actually need that kind of work done.

When you have to pay for your own insurance you realize quickly that it's a wash.

[sand frost]

What I mean by trash is that they seem to only like 70% cover things and there’s upper limits. I’ve had various and they all kind of suck.

[cinder karma]

focus, my job offers the dental for free to me

legit, fully free

I would be dumb to not take it

[sand frost]

Though my current one does partially cover adult orthodontia

[rotund violet]

Yeah, the upper limits is what does you in. Like, $1000 max and you pay $800 a year for it.

[sand frost]

That’s nice!!

I have to pay part of mine

[rotund violet]

Nothing is free, it's a taxable benefit and you're paying for it through deductions.

[dusty pollen]

is your medical also free, or just dental?

[cinder karma]

no, the medical I pay some (not very much) per month

[dusty pollen]

I assume free here means their salary would be the same with or without it. Hence, free.

[rotund violet]

🙄 this is basic economics, all costs are passed on. If the employer is paying 100%, they are passing on the cost to you some other way.

I'm not saying "don't take it" as if it's even a choice, but you're still paying for it.

[sand frost]

I mean in the very micro scale not all economics is frictionless

[dusty pollen]

we know the basic economics of this? no need to be dismissive and put eyerolling emojis. In the CONTEXT of the choice of having it vs not having it, it is effectively free to atra

anyway, I think that’s my cue to leave this convo

[rotund violet]

The point is that dental insurance plans as they exist today don't do even a remotely good job of what insurance is supposed to do, which is protecting you from sudden catastrophic costs.

[sand frost]

It very well can be the case that the company can choose to act irrationally in the economic sense, at a small scale

[rotund violet]

It doesn't matter who is technically paying the premium.

[dusty pollen]

(happy to have these discussions in good faith, but once you start sending eye rolling emotes at things people are saying, I’m out.)

[sand frost]

In other news, my plane keeps having more delays 😞

[cinder karma]

ahhh that sucks I'm sorry

[rotund violet]

Vision seems to be like this too, it saves a tiny bit of money but really, barely any, and I think you are effectively paying via inflated costs of the watered-down eyewear they make available at participating providers.

[sand frost]

My transfer time is going from a comfy 90 min down to a sadder 50 min

They also seem to be claiming the departure time is more delayed than the arrival time

I guess they plan to speed

But like, whatever that is for planes

[cinder karma]

(yeah, planes can fly faster. they typically don't b/c the fuel usage goes up)

(but if they're late they can and will.)

[dusty pollen]

(have you heard of the ryanair ceo’s weird push for standing seats)

[cinder karma]

yes

standing seats don't bother me tbh. Going to single-pilot planes does.

I will not fly on a commerical jet with a single pilot. That's a terrible idea

[dusty pollen]

standing seats bother me based on instinct, not because of any purely data-driven reasons. And ngl I think most people will feel similarly about them

[cinder karma]

(I've also said the same thing wrt fees: I don't care about fees, as long as they're made obvious before hand.)

if I'm on page 7 of the purchase page and THEN you tell me about a fee I'm gonna be annoyed

[cyan shadow]

I wouldn't even want single pilots on short haul flights, to say nothing of long haul

Two pilots = an extra set of eyes and an extra brain to help mitigate mistakes. removing one just sounds like a recipe for disaster to me

[dusty pollen]

b-but then you may be able to make decisions without feeling confused overwhelmed… won’t you think of the poor little companies whose business models rely on keeping you flustered so you make worse decisions? that’s low, atra

[cinder karma]

airbnb's "cleaning" fee can go suck it

[sand frost]

I personally would not be able to do that

Just like physically it would be agony

[cinder karma]

tbh personally I'm sorta skittish on flights in general

there's been wayyyy too many close calls

[cyan shadow]

I like flying, but I would not want to be standing the whole way like on a bus

[cinder karma]

not just close calls

actual crashes

[sand frost]

I’m not skittish on flights

But I get a little claustrophobic sometimes

I just have too much faith in statistics probably

[dusty pollen]

I don’t have any particular issues flying when it’s necessary/the most convenient option but also I’m not going to put myself through economy seating and also just airports in general if I can help it

[sand frost]

Yeah I do trains when I can

[cyan shadow]

I cannot imagine standing the whole way on an AMS->Blr flight, for instance

I love the train

[sand frost]

Sadly I can’t trains reasonably where I’m going today

[cinder karma]

so, I think the airline industry is leaning on their "old" safety standard.

just...like

[sand frost]

I did actually look it up

[dusty pollen]

exactly, all the talk people have had about shark attacks just made me scared of having a coconut falling on my head /lh

[cinder karma]

ancedotically there's a lot more tcas

[sand frost]

No i definitely agree but i drive everyday

And drivers these days have 0 common sense

Like I saw a car split lanes on the highway

Not a motorcycle, a car

[dusty pollen]

I wonder how regional bad driving is

[sand frost]

It definitely varies a bit

I’ve regularly driven in multiple areas across the US

I would say the kind of bad decisions people make definitely vary

[cyan shadow]

My driving lessons back home in Bangalore started with: "Always assume the people around you are morons"

[sand frost]

Like in some places it’s recklessness, other places it’s more often extreme speed

[dusty pollen]

my uni town was for sure full of terrible drivers, which is funny because literally no students were driving (there’s nowhere for students to even put cars)

[dusty pollen]

my grandad used to tell my dad to “always assume you aren’t the only idiot on the road”

[sand frost]

Abrupt forced left/right turns vary a lot in frequency, with the corresponding sudden lane changes they inspire

In the UK people take their roundabouts at incredible speeds

And they get mad if you don’t!

[cyan shadow]

My dad told me that too, yeah

[dusty pollen]

oh the people in my uni town just straight up couldn’t drive for some reason. There was one particular turn where I consistently saw the funniest attempts at literally just turning a corner

[dusty pollen]

tbf, they’ll get mad at you regardless

[cyan shadow]

I see this in the Netherlands too, they go nyoom

[dusty pollen]

especially around London. We’re just haters

[sand frost]

I was terrified driving on the “wrong side”

[cyan shadow]

there's not enough traffic in my city for this to be a real hazard, unless it's raining

[sand frost]

I can’t believe they just let Americans rent cars there tbh

[cyan shadow]

If it's raining and they go that fast they're just fools

[sand frost]

I drove like a grandma as best I could, given the circumstances

[dusty pollen]

tbf, if they banned americans they’d have to ban everyone except south africa iirc

[cyan shadow]

I can't really say it's just the cars too, I take the roundabouts at incredible speeds on my bicycle too

[sand frost]

But the other drivers did NOT appreciate

Isn’t Japan maybe also wrong side?

I recall it’s mostly islands

[cyan shadow]

I learned how to drive on the left side, thank you

[sand frost]

Maybe Singapore?

[cyan shadow]

basically all the new former colony nations drive on the left

[dusty pollen]

India? interesting

[sand frost]

Islands and colonialism

[cyan shadow]

Where do you think we got it from?

[cinder karma]

taiwan drives on the...left or right?

coudl have sworn the island drives hte left

[sand frost]

Taiwan drives on the right p sure

[cinder karma]

mainland drives the right

[sand frost]

I could be wrong

[dusty pollen]

hey apple, there isn’t a single time when the reason I’m using spotlight is to search your app store so please stop setting that as your default

[cyan shadow]

We still refer to old Privy Council cases in court, you think they went through the trouble of teaching the bullocks to drive on the right?

it was easier to just stay on the left

[cinder karma]

to be fair elizabeth I was in taiwan for a grand total of a week

[sand frost]

Taiwan drives on the right except when the buses decide it’s time to go renegade

Then it’s anything goes time

[cyan shadow]

oh yeah

we drive on the left unless there's a traffic jam, forgot to mention that bit

[dusty pollen]

interesting, there are a lot more left hand countries than I remembered

[sand frost]

I think they do that a bit less these days but my mom has stories

[cyan shadow]

(I don't do this, because I have a sense of self-preservation)

[dusty pollen]

there are no laws in traffic

[sand frost]

There’s the law of the jungle

[dusty pollen]

only chaos and self-preservation

[cyan shadow]

the one bad Indian driving habit I do have is cussing at other drivers tbh

[dusty pollen]

and car horns

[sand frost]

And the laws of physics

Biggest car wins

[dusty pollen]

I have heard so few car horns since moving to the UK

[cyan shadow]

just today I blared at a car in Dutch from my bicycle because the dumbass jumped the signal and almost mowed me down at the crossing

[dusty pollen]

debatable, have you seen the documentary movie series “Fast and Furious”?

[sand frost]

I have not, actually

I shall be sure to keep in mind the documentary nature

If I go watch it

[cyan shadow]

Okay, I have two bad Indian driving habits

[sand frost]

I do curse at other drivers but not like loudly or anything

[dusty pollen]

I have also not but I heard good things about its documentarian aspects

[sand frost]

Just that yknow I can’t help but point out that they’re being a dumbass

[dusty pollen]

regarding flying cars and explosions

[cyan shadow]

I replaced my car horn with a bicycle bell and my ability to project my voice

aggressive ringing
"JA, HALLO"

[dusty pollen]

but do YOU guys just leave your cars in bad traffic standstills? because we did that in my birth country

[cyan shadow]

I reserve it for genuine idiots, though

[sand frost]

Do you go back for the car later or?

[rotund violet]

I was told that honking is like a form of constant communication there, with one quick beep being almost more like a "hello" or "attention please" and only much longer or more frantic honks indicating serious anger.

[dusty pollen]

no. abandoned forever /lh (yes, you stretch your legs and like, go get ice cream from the ice cream truck that’s inevitably also stuck in traffic )

[cyan shadow]

We've never done it, but I've heard tell of people ordering whole meals at traffic jams, and people attending work calls on the back of motorcycles

And one legendary city transit corp bus driver eating all his biryani before he had a chance to restart his bus and get going again

[dusty pollen]

the worst insult most Londoners will throw at you is glaring at you and bitching about you to our friends Londoners do not respect you or care about you enough to bother talking to you lmao

[cyan shadow]

yep
and beeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeeep with lights means you've well and truly fucked up

[dusty pollen]

or that their horn is stuck and they have lost the ability to give a shit

and turned it into an all-out rave

[rotund violet]

Yeah, that part is probably universal.

[cyan shadow]

I say legendary because he probably did this while fending off his conductor, biryani's heaven scent tends to summon people to eat

our headlight and turn signal conventions are a bit different, as well

[dusty pollen]

wait, buses over there still have conductors???

[cyan shadow]

yeah

[rotund violet]

It's the "polite honking" you don't really see in Europe or North America.

[cyan shadow]

we don't have machines to tap in or out

just one fellow going up and down the buses saying "Tiket?"

[rotund violet]

It's either "you fucked up" or "collision incoming"

[sand frost]

I do a little “bip” for “hey get off your phone, the light turned”

[dusty pollen]

I think even before the machines, bus drivers here were expected to handle the cash themselves for a few years

courtesy bip

[rotund violet]

Yeah, we are turning into India in that respect... never used to have to do that.

[cyan shadow]

turn signals are sometimes considered optional
headlight flashing = get the fuck out of my way
hazard lights coming on = danger ahead
that's about it

[cyan shadow]

to be fair, this is big city india
the smaller towns still have some modicum of decorum

[sand frost]

Headlight flashing here usually means “I’m letting you go first” or “your headlights are off/out”

[dusty pollen]

but buses in London literally only take contactless now so if you don’t have contactless (card or phone) or an oyster you’re just screwed

[rotund violet]

The US does have one interesting convention that non-westerners often don't get, which is drivers flashing their lights into oncoming traffic to warn about speed traps.

[cyan shadow]

yeah no, we don't have that in India
too many people get on

[rotund violet]

I'm guessing some European drivers do it too.

[sand frost]

It’s difficult as a tourist bc they don’t seem to accept foreign cards sometimes?

Not as much a problem in London bc oyster

More a problem in smaller cities

[dusty pollen]

american express has limited use outside of the US, yeah

[rotund violet]

For the second one, I assume you mean tail lights?

[cyan shadow]

oh boy
do I have words about this concerning the Netherlands

[sand frost]

No no just normal cards

Visa or Mastercards, just some of them randomly aren’t accepted

[cyan shadow]

only in this country has visa been an uncommon thing to accept, somehow

[dusty pollen]

OH I know what you mean I think! I think your cards just genuinely don’t have the contactless chips sometimes?

[sand frost]

No, I see a lot of headlights out

[sand frost]

No, they worked fine in the US for contactless

[cyan shadow]

Getting my Dutch bank account up and running was top priority, or I'd have had trouble just going to the supermarket

[rotund violet]

Yeah but you can't flash headlights at someone to tell them about their headlights...

[cyan shadow]

never had problems on the bus, though

[sand frost]

But a similar kind of problem

[dusty pollen]

weird, I never heard of that then

[sand frost]

It was a weird problem

[rotund violet]

I mean, by the time you flash they'd already be past you. People do that when they're behind someone whose taillights aren't on at night.

[sand frost]

Luckily we had other cards

[cyan shadow]

OH

[dusty pollen]

how common is it to use contactless in the US then? I’ve heard conflicting htings

[sand frost]

Oncoming traffic sometimes

[cyan shadow]

I just remembered a convention that will confuse you lot

[sand frost]

At this point, very common

[safe dragon]

this is a good rule of thumb for traffic anywhere

[cyan shadow]

How would y'all indicate that your car has broken down

[rotund violet]

Huh, I would never intentionally flash highbeams at oncoming traffic, it's just going to blind them.

[sand frost]

It’s somewhat rare to find a place that doesn’t do tap, but more rural places it may be more common to have no tap

[cinder karma]

I carry little reflective triangles for that

[sand frost]

I pay like 80-90% of the time via tap

[rotund violet]

Hazard lights, obviously, that's what they're for. And yeah, also as atra said, pylons for extreme cases.

[sand frost]

Gas stations, however, often aren’t tap

[cyan shadow]

Okay

[safe dragon]

hazard lights normally yeah

[sand frost]

Probably to save money on tech?

[cyan shadow]

You know what we do in Bangalore?

[sand frost]

Agree, hazards

[rotund violet]

Sometimes pop the hood, too.

[cyan shadow]

Go to the nearest tree, snap off a branch, and stick it in the window

boom

[dusty pollen]

it was common in London a few years earlier than in most of the US for some reason, to the point that most street buskers even have contactless terminals now lmao

[cyan shadow]

everyone knows you've broken down

[rotund violet]

That's... interesting.

[cinder karma]

one thing I see people do locally that I've not seen: we flash hazards if we slow down (for any reason) on the highway

[sand frost]

I’ve seen that in snowstorms

[safe dragon]

imagine your car breaking down in the middle of nowhere with no tree in sight

[cinder karma]

(ie, if I'm going into a traffic jam, I flash hazards, I also double tap the brakes)

[dusty pollen]

wait wait, quill, what do you guys do in India if you find a scarf/glove/etc on the street?

[rotund violet]

Snowstorms and heavy rain, yes, anywhere visibility is low.

[cyan shadow]

then you use your hazards

[rotund violet]

Not traffic jams.

[sand frost]

Like if you’re driving 50 or under on the highway without traffic forcing you to

[cyan shadow]

run over it, I imagine. not like you can stop and pick it up most of the time

I don't stop to pick gloves etc up even now

[dusty pollen]

I mean on a pavement haha, not a road

[cyan shadow]

oh

[cinder karma]

the other thing we do that doesn't seem widespread is that we use signal lights on roundabouts

[safe dragon]

it is frankly bizarre

[dusty pollen]

when you’re walking basically

[rotund violet]

I think that's to defend against angry drivers honking and cutting you off.

[cinder karma]

ie, if I'm planning on taking the third exit (a leftward exit from my current position), I turn my left signal on

[cyan shadow]

probably nudge it to the side with my foot so it won't get ruined underfoot and move on with my life unless it looks like my foot would fall off if I touched it

[safe dragon]

by all means the netherlands tends be be quite advanced and ahead of things when it comes to technical systems and payment systems are no exception but credit cards are not accepted almost anywhere

[dusty pollen]

so in the UK, for some mysterious reason, people pick them up and put them on the nearest street name sign

[cyan shadow]

My Indian cards are all debit and still declined in many places

Mastercard and Visa both

[sand frost]

Oh that’s so weird

[dusty pollen]

I guess to be more visible to the person that lost them?

[cyan shadow]

It was so strange

[sand frost]

I thought you meant traffic lights into a roundabout

[cyan shadow]

that's... very cute

[safe dragon]

oh debit cards tend to be an issue abroad more often than credit

the netherlands is an odd place tho

[cinder karma]

we do this too

[cyan shadow]

maestro

[cinder karma]

if you drop a scarf or something, and I see it while running, I'll tie it up at eye level

[dusty pollen]

oh I actually vaguely remember debit card issues when we moved to the UK too

[cyan shadow]

They don't even exist anymore in most places!

and yet that's what my brand spanking new Dutch debit card is!

[dusty pollen]

here it’s often specifically the street name sign though, which is what I think is funny

is maestro mastercard?

[safe dragon]

honestly if someo non-european were to visit here I'd probably recommend them to set up apple pay/android pay or something cause their credit card is not going to get them very far

[sand frost]

We might be getting a plane soon!!!

[cyan shadow]

they are now

[sand frost]

That’s so weird

[cyan shadow]

yeah a lot of my non-euro classmates set up revolut immediately

[sand frost]

Like I am not surprised when credit cards are a little tricky, but for none to work is wild

[cyan shadow]

I opened a normal student bank account and then linked the card to google wallet

[dusty pollen]

absolutely! most convenient way to do literally everything here

[sand frost]

And I don’t fully trust the phone payment stuff?

[rotund violet]

Americans actually used to know about this generally, hence the (now obsolete, and always a little stupid) obsession with "traveler's checks".

[sand frost]

Like I set one up this year for the first time

[dusty pollen]

the phone payments also have a way higher max limit than card contactless too

[rotund violet]

It's always been the case that Europe is not big on American credit cards.

[safe dragon]

it is weird that we just do not accept credit cards. I am very happy that creditcards aren't popular but they should still work at least

[sand frost]

I’ve heard of travelers checks!!

We have a plane!! This is exciting progress

[rotund violet]

Haha, yes I'm showing my age I guess... AFAIK banks don't issue them anymore, but as recently as 5-10 years ago they still did.

[cyan shadow]

they're becoming more common now I think

[dusty pollen]

it’s relatively safe on both ios and android. Safer than contactless cards, to an extent, because payment can only be enabled after you unlocked your phone and if you have a password set

[cyan shadow]

my bank keeps trying to sell me one

[cinder karma]

....I have never used a travelers check

[cyan shadow]

and every time I get that email, I delete it

[cinder karma]

showing my age

[dusty pollen]

whereas contactless card spoofing is very much a thing

[safe dragon]

checks are not a valid form of payment or even accepted by banks in the netherlands anymore

[sand frost]

I guess I thought of it like PayPal and I’m pretty iffy on PayPal

[cyan shadow]

Crumble, I have a question

[dusty pollen]

I have a credit card but it’s like baby’s first credit card

[rotund violet]

Credit cards to me have always been more of a "payment instrument" than an actual "credit", but of course not everyone treats them that way.

[cyan shadow]

why can we only deposit cash at the geldautomaats and not at the branch

[safe dragon]

I have never deposited cash in my life so I can't tell you

[rotund violet]

Funny thing is, I don't think I ever actually used them either, even back in those days they still had ATMs.

[dusty pollen]

it’s more of an app installed on your phone, usually either by your phone manufacturer or OS manufacturer (so samsung, google or apple lmao), but it’s not a bank or payment platform itself, you have to connect it. Mine is connected to my bank card

[cyan shadow]

I've never tried to deposit at the branch but my roommate tried and rabobank told her to get lost, basically

[rotund violet]

Traveler's checks were a silly Boomer idea that they kept pushing onto their kids even after they became long irrelevant.

It was far, far easier to find a compatible ATM than a bank that would accept a traveler's check.

[cyan shadow]

she had to go to the ATM and deposit there, and the bank charged her for the deposit

[safe dragon]

honestly there aren't any physical bank locations left in my city so idk where I'd go other than a geldautomaat

[cyan shadow]

ah

yeah all the banks have a branch or two here

presumably to facilitate newcomers getting their accounts set up

[safe dragon]

physical banks have been disappearing here rapidly

especially since covid

[cyan shadow]

my bank doesn't charge for cash deposits, but I don't know about what's gonna happen once my account turns into a normal one

[rotund violet]

See, that's where it starts to get creepy. Not having physical currency or the ability to get/exchange physical currency exposes a nation to all sorts of economic and security risks.

[safe dragon]

you can exchange it but it's geldmaat things

[cinder karma]

...I have two bank accounts

[rotund violet]

I don't know what geldmaat is but I assume it involves some third-party, internet-connected service.

[dusty pollen]

they have physical currency and ATMs I think, just not the full bank branch? I think some have been closing in the UK too tbh

[cyan shadow]

yeah there are ways to get currency, just not at a bank branch

[dusty pollen]

isn’t a geldmaat just an ATM?

[cyan shadow]

It's just an ATM

[cinder karma]

the real bank account, then the satellite bank account. the satellite bank account is what I use for the online payment services (ie venmo)

[dusty pollen]

Europeans: They’re Just Like Us!

[cyan shadow]

and iirc the atms are all government owned?

[safe dragon]

basically atms that are strewn around the city but a specific brand that has pretty much taken over

[rotund violet]

Oh, I see, so there are ATMs but just no actual bank branches with real humans. Better than "cashless" I suppose, but still a little creepy.

Then again, makes for an easier transition to cryptocurrency transactions, so...

[cyan shadow]

wait are they government owned?

[dusty pollen]

do you guys have building societies in the netherlands, crumble? they seem to be more reluctant about closing branches

[safe dragon]

only like 5 years ago we had 3 banks that still had a physical location in my city I think but now there's none even though there's an office for one

[safe dragon]

nope. They're a joint venture between ABN AMRO, ING and Rabobank

[dusty pollen]

it appears that you do not have building societies, at least not in the exact same way

[safe dragon]

what's a building socieity

[dusty pollen]

I think nationwide may have opened branches in the past few years

[rotund violet]

Are Dutch banks themselves independent or do you just have your equivalent of the US fed?

Like, who backstops the loans, are banks allowed to declare bankruptcy?

[dusty pollen]

it’s like a bank, but not hard to explain tbh. Basically a kind of cooperative bank? in that the co-op owns a building society too lmao

[safe dragon]

De Nederlandsche Bank would be our monetary authority for such things but that is not a bank where you would have an account

[dusty pollen]

I have to imagine there’s regulation in almost all western countries just so we don’t get another 2008 on our hands

[rotund violet]

Yes, I know, Americans can't actually bank with the fed either.

[dusty pollen]

but the EU also has a lot of standardised regulation regarding banking and finance of course

[safe dragon]

of course since we use the euro it would not be the exact same

[rotund violet]

But to the question of being government owned, once you have FDIC or equivalent then it's pretty much impossible to disentangle banks from government, every bank is both owned and not owned by government.

[dusty pollen]

like, uh, mifid 2 do not ask me any questions about what this regulation is, I just know it exists because my dad worked for a company that had to deal with implementing shit for it

[rotund violet]

(The US does have "credit unions" and they can sometimes but not always be independent)

[safe dragon]

honestly idk exactly how things works but I've never heard of our banks being owned by the government in any way. the ING Group is an international group to begin with and they're the biggest bank in the country

[dusty pollen]

the best way I can describe building societies is like a mom-and-pops bank lmao

[rotund violet]

Well obviously you won't hear about it expressed in those terms because on paper they are not nationalized. In practice, they are.

[dusty pollen]

yeah, I think hsbc is one of the biggest here, which is technically from Hong Kong

[safe dragon]

I'm afraid you'd need someone with more knowledge on that front than me

[dusty pollen]

I keep my money in one single £5 note under my pillow and I will continue doing this thank you very much /lh

[sand frost]

Is this what would be a credit union here?

[safe dragon]

I do have an ex colleague who works for the nederlandsche bank now but considering he got fired from ours and clearly never really understannd how anything worked I doubt he'd be a better source

[dusty pollen]

they’re… related ig? but I think there are technically differences. No clue what they are though

[rotund violet]

It simply comes down to a question of who actually assumes the counterparty risk. In the US, for any bank that's FDIC insured, it's the federal government. Even foreign banks operating branches in the US are backstopped by the fed.

Sure, technically we have a dozen different banks - and there is really no difference between them.

[dusty pollen]

fdic insured has become a very creative way for uninsured banks to lie, as it turns out. Because some “internet banks” are advertising themselves as “FDIC insured through the banks the money is kept in”, but that actually turns out to only protect them, because they’re the customers in this scenario

[cinder karma]

fun with banks

bank: "yeah, you can't use the same login for your savings acount and your credit card, go make a new one"

[safe dragon]

I think the government pays out up to a certain amount if a bank were to go bankrupt or something but I don't remember. I remember there being drama around some icelandic bank when I was a kid that caused people to lose a lot of money

[cinder karma]

twenty second later; "hey you seem to have two accounts with us. merge?"

🙈

[rotund violet]

Well, at least they let you use a password longer than 8 characters (I hope).

[safe dragon]

9 allowed

reminding me of a client we had that got angry at us when we introduced a requirement for passwords to be at least 6 characters long

[rotund violet]

You know, it may have taken them 20 years but at least the banks are doing real 2FA now, you no longer see the "security question" bullshit.

[dusty pollen]

you go to merge. A red error message pops up. ẘ̵̢ḙ̸̚ ̵̼̈́w̵̆ͅa̶͕̓r̴̽ͅn̴͒ed you. Now you must ̩s̴̨͗u̷̿ffer the ̭c̴̯̽o̷̪͠nseq̸̿uences.

[safe dragon]

always fun to get complaints like this from large companies you'd really expect better from

[dusty pollen]

but now I can’t set it to 0000 any more!

[safe dragon]

like... these were accounts where if you had access you'd be able to see all their financial hsitory, all their customer information, every deal they've made with suppliers

why is your password less than 6 characters

[dusty pollen]

because it’s 0000, duh

[rotund violet]

Treasury Direct used to have this nutty system where you'd be forced to enter your password using an on-screen virtual keyboard. And I don't mean on a phone, this was on a regular desktop with a physical keyboard.

[dusty pollen]

otherwise how could you expect the big busy exec to remember it

[dusty pollen]

oh nice, the maplestory passkey system

[rotund violet]

To this day I have no clue what they were trying to protect against.

[safe dragon]

my current company requires use of password managers I'm afraid

on premise ones at that

[dusty pollen]

I love password managers but not any of the paid ones. Bitwarden is open source and— wait what. ew

I so don’t trust that

[safe dragon]

I mean like, keepass

[rotund violet]

What's wrong with keepass? It's great for me.

[dusty pollen]

still, I don’t want to be forced to use an on-site password manager against my will

[safe dragon]

for legal reasons we would not be allowed to use cloud provided password managers

we'd have the government breathing down our necks

[rotund violet]

Gee, I can't imagine why <looks up 308th article about data breaches>

[safe dragon]

yeah...

in general we cannot use cloud services

[dusty pollen]

(we had a similar policy when I worked for the last place I did, still annoying though lmao)

[safe dragon]

in fact we are soon forced to stop using sharepoint because microsoft stopped offering an on premise hosted solution a few years ago

[rotund violet]

So it's not all bad, then!

[safe dragon]

nope!

[dusty pollen]

also every time a company says “you can only use our internal data solutions for security reasons”, even though I 10000% agree with this principle, it still makes me feel like they’re saying “we should get to leak our own data! why should you get all the fun?”

[safe dragon]

honestly for me personally not much has changed since I have never really worked much with cloud providers beyond auth services and an S3 bucket

[dusty pollen]

god I had to make a tool work with IBM’s internal sso once. never again

[safe dragon]

if/when I end up working somewhere that is big on "cloud services" I will need to reschool myself a bit

since so far the places I've worked have avoided cloud whenever feasible

[dusty pollen]

old man yells at cloud computing?

[safe dragon]

that will be me

[dusty pollen]

https://tenor.com/view/tv-simpsons-cloud-fist-grandpa-gif-12082744756246344299

[safe dragon]

for now it's young man yells at cloud computing

[rotund violet]

The value proposition is really not what most businesses think it is. They end up paying more, and exposing themselves to more risk, than they would be hiring a competent IT person and getting a tiny bit of bare metal.

Cloud is great when you have extreme scaling requirements, like your traffic will be 1k today and 1M tomorrow and back again.

[dusty pollen]

tbf the value proposition of cloud computing is usually “now you don’t have to deal with it yourself, including all the risk that comes with that”

[safe dragon]

yeah my previous company avoided cloud specifically because they tried it before and were burnt really bad by it when costs were suddenly drastically larger than it was when we selfhosted

[rotund violet]

Most businesses that go with cloud just think it's a way to save money on IT costs, and it's not.

[safe dragon]

when we used some azure hosted elasticsearch it cost us more than several full time developers I believe

[dusty pollen]

but if you as a company already have the resources to deal with your computing yourself but aren’t because “anything is better than having to keep employees on staff” then… you get what you get lmao

[rotund violet]

Trying to remember which hosting company it was that permanently lost a ton of cloud data because they didn't have backups. I think maybe Google?

[dusty pollen]

listen, any company that tries to replace devs with whatever new shiny expensive solution is being marketed today is only worthy of my laughter

you want chatgpt to do your coding? because it’s cheaper than a senior dev and you don’t want to hire junior devs any more? yeah, you do that, buddy

[safe dragon]

replace all the devs with [insert new AI programming tool here]

[rotund violet]

And whoever it was, the explanation was some epic head-scratcher, like "well the data is replicated globally, so why would need backups?"

[safe dragon]

always make backups and then even more backups

[rain apex]

did they replicate the lost of data

[rotund violet]

Of course. I mention it in the sense of people who use cloud services not getting what they think they're getting.

[dusty pollen]

the thing that killed me even more than the cloud thing was the blockchain thing every single company was doing for a couple years why would a centralised blockchain literally ever be a good solution for anything

[rotund violet]

I think that was basically it, yeah. Some person or process deleted it, and it got deleted everywhere, and then that was it.

[safe dragon]

dude if we lost our data we'd be in so much shit I don't think the company would exist for much longer after

[dusty pollen]

“we’re using an in-house, centrally-hosted blockchain—“

have you considered a literal text file

Linked List With More Steps

[safe dragon]

automatically sync all your backups, including when stuff is deleted

[cinder karma]

pro-tip: git is a blockchain

[rotund violet]

...how so?

[dusty pollen]

in a more abstract sense of the word in which the vast majority of things are, sure

[safe dragon]

we are all a blockchain

[dusty pollen]

I am a block_head_, get it right

[cinder karma]

I don't know, I see blocks (diffs) and hashes

[dusty pollen]

blockchain enough, where’s my billion dollar evaluation for having a .git directory?

[cinder karma]

now svn....

I kid I kid

I'm just bad at svn

"so how do I...partially stage?"

[safe dragon]

I've never used svn

[rotund violet]

No, SVN is just bad. Git isn't a blockchain though (I guess that was just a joke)

[safe dragon]

I've never used any source control that isn't git actually

[dusty pollen]

svn, that’s the thing you use to deploy functions using json, right? /lh

[cinder karma]

I wasn't happy to know the answer to my question of "I would like to stage all files in this directory with a specific extension" required a lot of bash

[safe dragon]

unless you count labeled folders in google drive a version of source control

I've done that

[dusty pollen]

is commenting out the previous version until you’re sure you’re done with it version control

[cinder karma]

I mean YES. I can indeed pipe all files to a text document, do some grep, and then pipe that to svn

[rotund violet]

Ah, good old _2 versioning.

Things were so much simpler back then.

[devout vault]

Welp, certainly not backreading today

[dusty pollen]

but personally I am intrigued by how you would version control JDSL now. Would you just use git? or is the whole fun that you’re using svn for both at once, like the maniac you are

[devout vault]

Oh is that crazy jdsl thing the topic again?

[rain apex]

jdsl is built on subversion isnt it

[devout vault]

I saw a git implementation of jdsl

[cinder karma]

I am now trying to convince my boss on the merits of git-svn

[devout vault]

https://github.com/jeff-hykin/JDSL

[cinder karma]

at least help us young folk out a bit

[safe dragon]

there seem to be a lot of one-man code repos at the company I work for and it's definitely a gamble whether it's someone who actually maintains proper version control anyway or just has their own esoteric system they made up that only works because they're the only dev

[dusty pollen]

(hi Casey! I have a small question for you - is there a reason you aren’t listed as one of the 1.6 devs on the Stardew Valley page on the wiki? if not I can have a look at adding you to it, because I think every other developer is)

[dusty pollen]

probably, ngl I know subversion and svn equally, which is not at all lmao

[devout vault]

Not entirely sure - I know for a while my name wasn't added to the 1.6 section on the in-game section (though it should be now), maybe that's why?

[dusty pollen]

this is what it says for 1.6 right now

[rotund violet]

Hmm, now what does that remind me of... (most people on this server must have the answer)

[rain apex]

(subversion is svn)

[dusty pollen]

I’ll have a look at adding you though now that I know you weren’t omitted by request!

[dusty pollen]

well, then I definitely know the exact same amount about them that’s what I thought and then you made me doubt myself

[safe dragon]

not me though so I'm safe

[dusty pollen]

oh, pathos already did when I mentioned it earlier today

[devout vault]

In the source code repo (ie. the private one CA uses) I'm in the credits file right after that last one

I haven't synced in a while since I haven't done anything lately but I think it's safe to assume I wasn't removed 😛

[rotund violet]

Grandfather clauses aside, "thousands of independent repos with inconsistent practices, unclear ownership and even less clear maintenance" is definitely a familiar situation here.

[dusty pollen]

pathos took care of it himself a couple hours ago apparently!

you are now on the page

[devout vault]

Ah, okay

[dusty pollen]

(sorry for dragging us suspiciously onto the topic, I will leave immediately)

[ivory shadow]

It'd be fun to see the original source some time. Just to see how different it is from the decomp and to read comments.

[devout vault]

It wasn't modding related so technically you're good 😛

[dusty pollen]

but stardew is the topic of the entire server!

[devout vault]

I guess that is still on topic for the server as a whole... but this is technically in the modding category, so...

[dusty pollen]

I want to know if the goto IL_????s are genuinely in the code or decompile nonsense

[ivory shadow]

They are decompile nonsense lol

Rather, they are compile nonsense.

[dusty pollen]

I did assume based on the label immediately following the goto in one case

[cinder karma]

decompile nonsensen

[ivory shadow]

The compiler rewrites stuff a bit, and the decompiler just does its best

[dusty pollen]

but I want to know what the code looked like that generated the IL that confused the decompile

[cinder karma]

A bit

Not enough tbh

[safe dragon]

I'll put in some actual IL gotos in my source code

[dusty pollen]

it replaces ths with thorns and does nothing else

[cinder karma]

Could do a little more constant folding

[dusty pollen]

I learned that that was legal from the decompile and immediately vowed to test the crimes I can commit with it

[ivory shadow]

// hah you thought this was the decompiler's fault
goto IL_6969;

[devout vault]

There are technically goto uses in the codebase (I just checked), but most are for switch cases and not 'normal' gotos. There is one 'normal' goto on PC, and a few in various console specific code

[dusty pollen]

I didn’t know there was a special goto for switch cases thank you for the context though!

[devout vault]

It looks like that goto use for PC is fairly recent too (like, latest released patch recent)

(It's hard to watch anime while chatting because subtitles 😔 )

[dusty pollen]

how much can I do with gotos. I assume I can’t goto a label that’s in another method, and definitely not another class… but surely things can be broken yet

[cinder karma]

anyways

[dusty pollen]

can I goto a label in a virtual method from its override that would be fun

[devout vault]

Looks like I have 5 files with goto in my mod repo according to github. Most of them in a mod I never released I think (Buildable Locations Framework, the file with carpentermenu patches has 10 it looks like? The mod is obsolete now anyways though)

[cinder karma]

morning, casey!

[devout vault]

Good morning

'morning'

It's 3:30 PM

[cinder karma]

don't think you can goto outside the method body you're in

anyways

[dusty pollen]

good timezone to both of you

[devout vault]

Darn, guess I'll have to program in assembly then 😔 (C/C++ doesn't allow that either)

<flashbacks to MIPS in college as well as PowerPC assembly Kirby Air Ride modding>

[cinder karma]

I think the most fun code is the code that rewrites itself on the fly

[devout vault]

Yeah, that does seem like it would be fun to make

[dusty pollen]

preferably using wild text-editing of the program currently in buffer

[cinder karma]

no no no no

[devout vault]

I think it's mainly used for malware and intrusive DRM though (which some people would argue are the same thing...)

[cinder karma]

I'm thinking of legitimate, real-world code that ejects launch code from memory when it's done

[dusty pollen]

also as a 1.6 dev, do you know when we’re getting the incredible crucial fix for the clock hands being animated slightly incorrectly due to incorrect maths? it’s the entire reason I’m not playing the game, literally unplayable

[cinder karma]

yes. you can do this with bash.

[devout vault]

Soon ™️

[cinder karma]

if you do this, I will track you down. and haunt you. for the rest of your life

[devout vault]

(I have no idea what you're talking about)

[rain apex]

i like the code that prints itself but as a donut

[dusty pollen]

I worry bash would be cached into memory before execution and therefore will not allow the level of crime I desire

[devout vault]

does it intentionally so atra never gets scared off by me

[rain apex]

https://github.com/limiteci/donut.c

donut :)

[dusty pollen]

so the the code for the gold clock/cc center clock hands is wrong and this is literally the highest priority bug possible. I even made a demonstration animation in desmos

[devout vault]

I was gonna say the python version is more impressive given python indentation rules, but then I looked at the implementation. Code isn't donut shaped, 0/10

[dusty pollen]

(#making-mods-general message)

are we talking torus or 2d ring? I need to know what to expect here

[cinder karma]

exec

[devout vault]

There's a gif on the page, the edible kind torus

[rain apex]

i guess its not itself persay

just donut shaped c code that prints a 3d donut

[devout vault]

Wow, that is literally unplayable. No wonder so few players actually get the golden clock (I assume that's what you're referring to?)

[devout vault]

Well, I would say "just print it out and eat it, problem solved", but the same could be said for the 2d kind...

[dusty pollen]

that and the one above the cc! that’s literally unplayable casey

[devout vault]

Advanced level: Paper mache donut made from paper with that code printed on it

[dusty pollen]

advanced advanced level: mug

[devout vault]

The real reason people go joja

[cinder karma]

https://www.reddit.com/r/StardewValley/comments/1j2l776/stardew_confession/?utm_source=embedv2&utm_medium=post_embed&utm_content=post_body&embed_host_url=https://gamerant.com/stardew-valley-mistake-skull-key-junimo-kart-cavern/

[dusty pollen]

stupid maths joke is stupid and I will see myself out

[devout vault]

(Still haven't finished this episode that had like 2-3 minutes left when I said this)

[devout vault]

I assume you mean topology? I find that kinda fascinating - not in a way that it's something I'd read a lot about, but in a "if come across that stuff I'd go 'huh, neat'" sort of way

[dusty pollen]

yes, one of the most common jokes about topology is that donuts and mugs are the same thing

(topologically they are, of course, because the cup portion of the mug is irrelevant)

[devout vault]

I mean, most people drink coffee out of a donut, right? That's where the filled kinds of donuts first originated from, right?

[cinder karma]

clearly

[dusty pollen]

idk but I certainly eat all my mugs on hannukah. That’s what the money is for, to pay the dentist

[cinder karma]

god, we should make a stropwaffen that's shaped like a coffee mug

that thing

stropwaffle

something like that

the dutch can kill me now

[devout vault]

Those always confuse me because it makes me think of waffles with the name, but then the name is german or something which makes it clear that they aren't waffles at all, but then you look at pictures of them and they are in fact thin waffles (not really I'm sure, but they certainly look like it)

[cinder karma]

thin cookies with waffle texture and caramel

[sand frost]

Tasty 😋

Making them coffee cup shaped would need more caramel

[crystal wren]

You should write your next project using JDSL, clearly.

[devout vault]

Brb making JDSL-powered smapi mods

Whenever you launch the game it checks the repo for any new revisions and fetches them and compiles them locally

[rain apex]

is that what they call just in time compilation

[crystal wren]

Just in tiny checkout more like.

*time

[devout vault]

Not quite. For that you'd need to check for new revisions as the game goes and hot reload new changes released while you play... which is a brilliant idea, actually. adds to feature list

[crystal wren]

Yeah, you could do live remote hot reload with a commit.

[thin estuary]

do it during a multiplayer session too

[devout vault]

adds new netfields in a release after the mod gets really popular, mass chaos ensues

[thin estuary]

make sure you also check even more often, between each splitscreen view gets rendered

[rain apex]

whats your target fps

[crystal wren]

Each method call to be safe, really.

[thin estuary]

fps? more like spf

[safe dragon]

oh alright

[devout vault]

For SPF, lower actually would be better

[crystal wren]

For both skin burning and performance.

[devout vault]

I was just about to make a sunscreen joke too

"If my code is inefficient enough, can I use it as sunscreen?"

[ivory shadow]

I just want to take a moment and say this is some real asshole design from Discord. All voice channels? Hidden. Muted. Category collapsed. And lo, but what is that on my sidebar? And in my server list?

If I was on the UX team I would be having words with people.

[strange copper]

Have a word with nexus while you're at it because if you go to the next page of mod results, it erases what game u had filtered to

[safe dragon]

peak design

paging that stops working the moment you use it

[rotund violet]

If you were on the UX team you'd probably be looking at a memo saying you're not allowed to let the voice channels be hidden under any circumstances.

You can get them hidden with a custom CSS though. Took me a while to figure out how to write the rule too, they don't make it easy to distinguish the voice channels semantically.

[dusty pollen]

why am I suddenly getting github and reddit achievements for accounts I've had for years I haven't even touched that reddit account in like 5 years

[cinder karma]

Does anyone remember off the top of their head how to change the gnome launcher?

I'm trying to set a custom profile for Firefox

[safe dragon]

a custom profile?

the actual contents I think I are just based on your .desktop files

you'll have one for Firefox somewhere

[cinder karma]

Ah, yes, .local/share/applications

The tl;dr is that I need Firefox open twice

On two different servers

BUT my home dir is the same across both servers

And Firefox goes "huh, the profile is locked you dumbass"

So I need one to point to a different profile

[safe dragon]

you can even have several of these files for the same application and there's some other directories it looks at

[pliant snow]

Yeah, it's .local/share/applications for your user then /usr/share/applications for the system. The local ones will override the system ones

[cinder karma]

Luckily(?) For me our past selves were indecisive on Windows managers

I'm gnome on one and xfce on the other lol

[cinder karma]

New bit of stupidity

For $reasons, I want the gnome task bar to be on top or on left

I cannot install anything

How do I move it

Tweaks....is tweaks available

[safe dragon]

the gnome taskbar is always on the top

sounds like you already have some tweak

[cinder karma]

Hmm

[pliant snow]

Hello wise and noble nerds

I have come to you again, not with a complex question about programming, but with one of the most basic ass web questions

mainly because I dont understand flexboxes still

how the fuck do i get a group of images to resize themselves so they fit together on the same row

I didn't think I'd have trouble with this

[rain apex]

what if u use a grid

[supple ether]

put display: flex on the parent element and flex-grow: 1 on all the children.

knowing the sizes of the images beforehand will make things easier

[dusty pollen]

I believe the secret to flexboxes is sacrifice

[supple ether]

flexboxes aren't that complicated

[dusty pollen]

ideally of either your sanity or, if you don't have that remaining, something you hold dear

[supple ether]

flexbox cheatsheet: https://css-tricks.com/snippets/css/a-guide-to-flexbox/
in-depth flexbox explanation: https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/CSS/CSS_flexible_box_layout/Aligning_items_in_a_flex_container

if you have problems with stretching, height: auto can help, though aspect-ratio is better if you know ahead of time what it is

[pliant snow]

All of the images are images I took, and are all the same size. They're currently too large to all fit in a row, I probably should shrink them..

[supple ether]

if the base size is too big, you can add flex-shrink: 1 to make them shrink

[pliant snow]

Oh shit that flex-grow worked

that was easier than I was making it

although the padding between them is much too high hmm

[supple ether]

I also recommend adding loading="lazy" to your image elements in html (unless they're at the top of the page) to help the page load faster

[supple ether]

set margin to zero on the images and set gap on the container

[pliant snow]

loading="lazy" you say...

[supple ether]

it defers image loading until the images are actually on screen

so they won't block the initial load if they're further down the page

[pliant snow]

why have i never heard of that as advice before

[cinder karma]

Loading, lazy....also me on a Sunday morning

[supple ether]

it's a relatively new feature from the past few years

idk why but it's just not super well known for whatever reason

[pliant snow]

is it bad to do it to all images, or should it just be ones below the view

[cinder karma]

It feels right that that exists but also I know people used to do the Javascript for that

[supple ether]

should just be the ones below the view

[supple ether]

that's part of why it got into the html spec. A lot of people were doing it with js and wanted a native way of doing it to reduce frontend bloat

[pliant snow]

hmmm i probably should shrink my captions too

muhahaha

[rotund violet]

It wasn't a supported attribute until pretty recently. Last year, I think.

[ivory shadow]

https://caniuse.com/loading-lazy-attr

Late 23 for Safari and Firefox

Well, for iframes

Images were supported in 22.

As you would expect Apple is literally years behind

[dusty pollen]

safari are really trying to establish themselves as the new internet explorer

[safe dragon]

they've done a great job

[devout vault]

Wow, I didn't realize that existed, it sounds great. I'll make sure to remember that for about 5 minutes or so, definitely forgetting by the time I ever need to use that again

[safe dragon]

I do wish it supported low res placeholder thumbnails while it's loading

there's funky hacks like making the placeholder the background image but it's not reliable across browsers

but loading is a great addition

[cinder karma]

Webdev has changed a lot since I last looked at it

[sonic mirage]

It's easy to overcomplicate a lot of things in webdev. Unless you're building some Facebook-sized site, a lot of it is overkill for most use cases

[safe dragon]

webdev changes a lot in general

those front end people are never satisfied

[pliant snow]

It would be nice if the lazy image loading would just be a header or something to send, rather than needing to annotate every relevant image

[dusty pollen]

idk if I have made it clear enough yet that if I had my way I would never look at front end web dev again

I am willing to make maths/cs lecturer style pure html webpages. take it or leave it

[supple ether]

I like doing web frontend as long as I don't have to deal with js

[dusty pollen]

js is the only part of frontend I tolerate

(to be clear, I don't think front end webdev is bad or anything, I just hate doing it on a personal level)

[supple ether]

I just hate the unnecessary overuse of js everywhere

There's very few things that you absolutely need js for.

Even with interactivity, you can do a lot with the built-in elements, css, and forms

[dusty pollen]

ngl if something will take me five lines of js vs five days of fighting css, I'm using js

[sonic mirage]

I defer as much as possible to CSS

[supple ether]

Css is not hard a lot of people just never try to learn it properly

[ivory shadow]

laughs in front end dev

[dusty pollen]

I know it isn't hard, I just find it annoyingly fiddly

[sonic mirage]

I feel like it's the "cascading" part that trips most people up. They don't understand the priority things get, or why you don't slap !important on everything

That and lacking basic box model understanding

[supple ether]

Yeah

[pliant snow]

I find CSS to just be unintuitive tbh. There's 18 different ways to do things, but none of them are obvious

[supple ether]

Not really

[cinder karma]

!important on everything, okay

[ivory shadow]

People have gone out of their way to invent multiple js css abominations where not cascading is like a core design feature

[cinder karma]

Doing layout with tables

[supple ether]

It makes sense if you understand the mechanics of it and not just the surface level properties and syntax

[cinder karma]

Got it, making chatgpt do it

(I kid I kiddddd)

[safe dragon]

one of the annoyances of css I have is that a bunch of html elements have default inherent css styling rules. There's "css reset" stuff you can do but still slightly annoying

[supple ether]

I wanna see chatgpt write a webpage tbh. Would be hilarious

[dusty pollen]

I just have a conniption every time I have to hardcode a number, so clearly css isn't for me

[cinder karma]

I actually had it write a little bash for me the other day and it didn't do...terribly

[marble jewel]

A lot of the early/janky css+js solutions were to solve problems that have better support in the standards now

[safe dragon]

it can definitely make a webpage

[supple ether]

Yeah that's definitely fair

[sonic mirage]

These days, I think flexbox has "solved" most issues people used to have with CSS, they just need to take 15 min to learn it. Use the cheat sheet site if you need, you can do basically everything with that

[marble jewel]

I'm pretty sure plain CSS is now turing complete

[safe dragon]

flex and grid fixed any basic placement based issues I've had

[dusty pollen]

I think only if you include animations iirc?

[cinder karma]

Showing my (css) age but I think i predate flexbox

[marble jewel]

Like, the old joke was you didn't know HTML+CSS unless you could center a div, now it's super easy

[supple ether]

CSS selectors are also very powerful now

[sonic mirage]

I agree that the defaults of browsers are a bit annoying, but you can either use an off-the-shelf reset or just roll your own as you come across annoyances

[cinder karma]

Well. At least. The book i learned from predates flexbox

(The book i learned from was published in 1995. I found it at the library)

[safe dragon]

the joke remains anyway cause software memes are just rehashed

[frosty echo]

https://flexboxfroggy.com if you want to learn flex

[supple ether]

I mean I predate flexbox but I absolutely do NOT miss the horrors of abusing float to arrange things

[safe dragon]

shout out to the horrors of using table for page layouts

[ivory shadow]

That predates CSS.

[dusty pollen]

I know flexbox is a solution to the annoying centering thing and it has absolutely made things so much less difficult and yet

no

❌CSS❌

[marble jewel]

My knowledge is a bit outdated, but I learned HTML+CSS+Javascript at the dawn of the internet, and continued learning as it changed. The version we have nowadays is relatively simple compared to the hackiness of the past. Like it used to be everything in tables.

[supple ether]

Yeah for sure, we have a lot better tools now

[ivory shadow]

Remember xhtml and when we needed exact doctype tags? That was a fun period

[dusty pollen]

w3schools continues to be my fave html reference/teaching site

[marble jewel]

Remember when companies used to publish webpages that they made in Microsoft Word?

[safe dragon]

smh what do you mean "remember" I use them a few months ago

[ivory shadow]

Yes I remember today

[supple ether]

MDN is my favorite but w3schools is good for the basics and quick reference

[sonic mirage]

Frontpage 🤮

[safe dragon]

oh they're doing that rn at work cause sharepoint refuses to work

[dusty pollen]

I got taught in school that to make web pages you needed to use dreamweaver

[ivory shadow]

Dreamweaver 🤢

[supple ether]

Dreamweaver is so evil

[dusty pollen]

oh yeah, mdn for api reference, w3schools for examples/concepts

[pliant snow]

I used whatever that iWork suite was lol

[safe dragon]

w3schools is sometimes just blatantly wrong in the compatibility table though

[dusty pollen]

...what year do you think that was, at a guess

[sonic mirage]

I had to convert a handful of DW pages to non-crap awhile back

[dusty pollen]

tbh I never used their compat tables, I always used the dedicated websites

[ivory shadow]

2005

[supple ether]

I use caniuse and mdn for compat reference

[dusty pollen]

2014

[sonic mirage]

People still go to w3schools?

But.. MDN is right there

[dusty pollen]

my school taught us to use dreamweaver in 2014

[marble jewel]

Hot take - I think websites that use Bootstrap are the modern-day equivalent to a Dreamweaver website

[sonic mirage]

See also CanIUse

[rain apex]

SEO powerful

[pliant snow]

CSS, more than other technologies, does suffer from really outdated google results. I'm not sure I knew flexboxes were the recommended way, just from searching the things I want to do

[dusty pollen]

but bootstrap is so easy and I don't have to think about the rest...

[supple ether]

It uses simpler language and is less in depth, so it's more accessible for beginners

[supple ether]

Bootstrap is nice

[sonic mirage]

I haven't looked at it in a long time, it used to be painfully incorrect

[supple ether]

I'm glad you can use scss without nodejs now

[dusty pollen]

it also has interactive examples people can test out, and a lot of info about colour use etc. It's a decent resource

[sonic mirage]

We use Bootstrap for most client sites since it's quick to get up and running and customized

[cyan shadow]

screech

[dusty pollen]

is bootstrap the one with the grid or is that react. or both of them

I think I specifically remember the bootstrap grid

[marble jewel]

I'm not saying anything is wrong with it, it's just cookie cutter websites with a lot of boilerplate tags

[supple ether]

Bootstrap has a columns concept

[sonic mirage]

Bootstrap has an optional grid mode atm

[cinder karma]

See, I learned from a book written at the dawn of the internet

And never improved

[cyan shadow]

Frontpage was still used to teach basic html at my school when I was a kid, and I hated it so much

[cinder karma]

Since I'm not a front end dev

[supple ether]

But it's just a css toolkit, you can use what you want and ignore the rest

[cinder karma]

I'm about as far from a front end dev as you can get

[marble jewel]

I don't do webdev anymore, but if I were to make a site today, I'd probably go with Tailwind

[sonic mirage]

Dreamweaver had lots of bloat so in that regard I disagree, but I do agree that a standard, uncustomized BS is pretty boring these days

[dusty pollen]

khloe you have eight of those goose sword segments?

[supple ether]

Bootstrap is mostly useful because it does the breakpoints and dark mode for you

[pliant snow]

underwater welder

[cyan shadow]

I'm very baby with CSS, but Tailwind looked pretty neat when I looked at it last

[marble jewel]

I haven't looked at bootstrap since a few major versions ago, when I last looked into it, I thought the payload was excessive

[dusty pollen]

then again, I am also a jquery apologist so don't listen to anything I say regarding frontend webdev

[supple ether]

I hate the concept of tailwind but admittedly I've never used it, so I can't really throw shade

[supple ether]

Whyyyyyyy

If this were 2016 I would understand but in the year of our lord 2025???

[dusty pollen]

most cursed frontend framework I've seen did all its stuff in html comments. as long as you're doing better than that I'm not hating

[sonic mirage]

Tailwind requires time to build out components and tooling to do all the tree shaking and such, so it's probably better for a larger, long-term site

[pliant snow]

bought a big container full of $, now gotta use them up somehow

[dusty pollen]

it's because I last touched this stuff in 2019 and utterly refuse to find out what replaced jquery lest I be sad

[supple ether]

Vanilla js replaced it in like 2019

[dusty pollen]

also I liked the jquery selector system. is it just going to be useless info in my brain now? I will cry

[supple ether]

Document.querySelector

That's older than 2019 even

[dusty pollen]

idc if $('#something') is the same as Document.GetElementById('something'), look at all that extra typing that I could get around by just importing a massive, overly bulky library!

#worthit

[sonic mirage]

We end up using jQuery for AJAX things mostly

[supple ether]

But fetch is right there

[dusty pollen]

ajax and fetch had enough overlap with the non-frontend stuff I was doing that I hated them a lot less

[dusty pollen]

(and yeah, idk about querySelector but the specific selectors like the ID one existed when I first touched html in 2012 )

[supple ether]

Tbf when jquery was invented, it was to fill in the gaps of vanilla js. Now, those gaps have been filled by the js spec itself, so jquery is essentially obsolete, but there was reasons for it to exist at the time

[dusty pollen]

oh yeah I'm sure, it's just that for me it now essentially satisfies the purpose of $ = Document.querySelector; or however you assign to a symbol )

[sonic mirage]

Last time I looked fetch wasn't supported enough, but now it looks pretty available, so looks like I need to look into it again

[dusty pollen]

there was another thing like fetch and ajax that's on the tip of my tongue but I can't seem to remember it

[supple ether]

Thank god ms killer ie

I mean fetch is ajax

[dusty pollen]

axios! axios is what I was thinking of

[supple ether]

Ajax just stands for Asynchronous Javascript And Xml, so technically it just means using js to grab things from the server

[sonic mirage]

Yeah but writing XMLHttpRequest was verbose and tedious, fetch looks like it's basically streamlined like jQuery's AJAX stuff

[pliant snow]

I remember hearing the word ajax a lot when I was becoming aware of web dev, and then it vanished

[supple ether]

It used to be a shiny new idea and now everyone does it so people don't talk about it much anymore

[dusty pollen]

axios was pretty sleek whenever I used it

[sonic mirage]

https://i5.walmartimages.com/seo/Ajax-Ultra-Triple-Action-Dishwashing-Liquid-Dish-Soap-Orange-Scent-52-Fluid-Ounce_17deedd0-7d97-417e-8117-5b725d3cad89.8fedb750d54e0b316702181d5328e543.jpeg

[supple ether]

Yeah working with xhr is not fun

[marble jewel]

The last time I did any kind of webdev was in 2020 for this PR: https://github.com/spiralhalo/spiralhalo.github.io/pull/2/files
I converted a website that used css/js frameworks into plain semantic HTML, javascript, and CSS.
In that PR I converted their $.get into await fetch(...)

[dusty pollen]

I don't remember why I used it but I did lmao. Maybe REST api testing? though I had postman for the manual stuff, so it would have had to have been for automated testing

[supple ether]

Firefox also has a thing that lets you send custom requests from devtools. Don't even need postman

[dusty pollen]

love that tool! the firefox devtools are so good

[supple ether]

The results show up in your browser tab, and if its json you get an interactive tree thingy, it's great

They really are

[dusty pollen]

I just wish I knew how to revert the console to the old single-line mode

[sonic mirage]

Firefox devtools needs undo. They already track changes, but don't make undo work. Drove me nuts enough to switch back to chrome for dev stuff

There's an ancient ticket open for it

[supple ether]

Undo would be nice, as would page load speed testing

[dusty pollen]

if they already track changes, I wonder why not implement undo

[safe dragon]

shout out to Blazor shipping with bootstrap out of the box

[supple ether]

That's one thing chrome does that Firefox doesn't

[sonic mirage]

There were a couple other annoyances that made me switch back, but I don't recall. Mostly CSS and HTML node stuff I think. Maybe they don't have element copy/paste?

[dusty pollen]

I like firefox too much to switch back to chrome, for reasons beyond dev stuff haha

[sonic mirage]

I'd prefer to support FF over Chrome but I have work to do and undo is key to CSS testing

[supple ether]

I have degoogled chromium, which I use exclusively for chrome testing of websites. Otherwise I use ff

[safe dragon]

I have chrome installed pretty much for the dev tools while I usually use Firefox

[marble jewel]

Firefox is my main browser for general usage, but I keep chrome to the side for things. Although I'm trying to take Cromite for a spin to see if that can replace Chrome.

[supple ether]

I don't know if yall have seen it yet but there's a very cool new feature in the css spec that was added really recently, which is page transition animations. Firefox doesn't support them yet, so I used chromium to play with them a bit

(It's being worked on for ff just not finished yet)

[worn remnant]

i have chromium for when sites demand javascript. firefox with js off for most of my browsing

[cinder karma]

I tried using brave once

It lasted until I needed to log into my bank's website

But yeah. Firefox with JS off. Works wonders for the.....four sites I visit regularly

[safe dragon]

how often does that break

[marble jewel]

tbh I constantly test out browsers side-by-side because things constantly change, and I like to know what my options are

I was using Waterfox as my main for a while, and I recently switched over to Floorp

[safe dragon]

floorp is the best named browser

[cinder karma]

I really do not care

[supple ether]

Waterfox was nice but I bailed after mainline ff got 64bit support and hardware acceleration

[cinder karma]

Render Gmail correctly, render proton correctly, let me access my bank, show me r/knitting

[heavy dagger]

https://reddit.com/r/knitting

[safe dragon]

why use waterfox or zen when there's something called floorp

[cinder karma]

That is literally it

[supple ether]

Honestly that's goals

[cinder karma]

I feel like I've moved to my phone for most things which is a little sad but also like

[worn remnant]

you can't load any social media site, which i do not consider a downside. most sites are broken a little bit but not a lot, and they load so, so fast

[marble jewel]

I like Floorp's integration with Sidebery.

[sonic mirage]

In terms of game-changing CSS features, :has() is pretty big, since you can now style parent elements based on their children

[supple ether]

I wish I could be that offline

[worn remnant]

it's amazing how fast the web is when you aren't constantly downloading, JIT-ing, and executing code

[marble jewel]

I was actually running Waterfox, Zen, and Floorp side-by-side for a few weeks before I landed on Floorp. It just felt like the most efficient experience for me.

[supple ether]

Oh yeah I do also have palemoon

Not fast enough to be my daily driver but I really enjoy the experience

[worn remnant]

(i'm quickly veering into "the website obesity crisis" here, so just go read that)

[supple ether]

It feels like I'm browsing the net in 2010 again

[supple ether]

NO BUT THAT'S SO REAL

[marble jewel]

My main Chromium-based browser has been Edge for a few years now, but I'm finally getting around to replacing it because it feels like it has been bloated with Microsoft crap

[sonic mirage]

"Ok, but what if we put a bunch of 10MB JPEGs on our homepage that I took on my phone and didn't compress" is the main site size I run into with clients

"Can we have a 10-deep carousel that no one will ever even see the third image of?"

[marble jewel]

Obviously the answer to image compression is to convert all of your jpeg raster graphics into vector-based graphics

Just use one of those converters, nothing can go wrong with that

[supple ether]

I do wish there was a standardized binary vector format

It's horrible that svg is the only option. It's so ancient and bloated

[sonic mirage]

I recently updated a client's site logo and the SVG was larger than the PNG

[supple ether]

Not surprising

[marble jewel]

svg too bloated, better switch to procedural graphics instead

[supple ether]

Png does really good compression with solid color shapes. If the contour is complicated, it would easily outstrip the verbose xml of svg

[sonic mirage]

I exported it from Illustrator, so maybe there is some sort of optimization that it could be run through, but I didn't look into it

[worn remnant]

(looping back around) just download this js framework payload, execute and...

[sonic mirage]

PNGs I'm familiar with optimizing at least

[supple ether]

Does illustrator not have an "export for web" option?

[sonic mirage]

I believe I used that, I meant maybe there's external tools to reduce vector points along curves or something for the SVG

[supple ether]

Ahhh

[sonic mirage]

The logo was mostly text, so lots of curves

[supple ether]

Well that depends on if the text was converted to curves or left as text, and what font you used

[sonic mirage]

I believe it was converted to shapes and not text anymore

[supple ether]

Well that's good at least

[marble jewel]

To be fair, it's pretty impressive what better coders have been able to accomplish with procedural graphics:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/.kkrieger

[supple ether]

Yeah! That project is awesome

[marble jewel]

I wonder if such a scenario exists where you would want to optimize for bandwidth, but the client-side rendering capabilities are not a concern so it's more efficient to "code" your graphics rather than embed it.

[cinder karma]

Inkscape does better tbh

[worn remnant]

any recent phone in a low signal area or painfully throttled network might do it

[supple ether]

I mean that's essentially the niche that flash player occupied for years

Video uses a shitton of bandwidth, but vector shapes and motion data is small enough to fit over a dialup connection

[rotund violet]

Re: the whole CSS thing, I've used all the different frameworks and believe I can confidently say that Bootstrap is at least "decent" for most things, whereas Tailwind is trash made by people who actively hate CSS for the benefit of people who don't understand CSS (or maybe vice versa).

I would honestly rather make pages in Microsoft Word than use Tailwind ever again.

[ivory shadow]

There's a work project that uses tailwind. I consistently annoy the people who work on that by using Tailwind's @extend feature or whatever it's called that lets you make a CSS class by sticking together a bunch of Tailwind's things.

But I outrank people so I can get away with it.

[rotund violet]

That extension is literally the only part of Tailwind that makes it even remotely usable.

[ivory shadow]

There are some nice utility classes in Tailwind but it's literally all utility classes and I don't know who thought that was a good idea but they should have their license to write CSS taken away.

[rotund violet]

Without it, it's straight-up impossible to write proper selectivity rules.

[ivory shadow]

And I know we don't have CSS licenses but we should get them just so we can take that person's away

[rotund violet]

I think a simpler solution would be to just put them in the stocks and horse-whip them, we don't need to invent a licensing system for it.

Everyone is fully aware of their crimes already. (Well, everyone who matters)

And any redditors who want to expound at length about how utility classes are ACKSHULLY BETTAR are welcome to join them.

[ivory shadow]

New punishment, they are only allowed to browse the web using Internet Explorer 6.

[rotund violet]

No, then you'll be punishing the rest of us because all the malware they get will be used to spam and DDoS us. We can make them use Netscape Navigator, though.

[safe dragon]

I do like tailwind more than bootstrap

[rotund violet]

I went to look something up and found this fun rabbit hole: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/JavaScript_Style_Sheets

We should all thank our lucky stars that standard didn't get adopted.

[safe dragon]

ultimately I've just settled on regular css though. Not scss or anything like that either

[safe dragon]

JSSS

my biggest praise for tailwind is that I like the color palettes in their docs

[rotund violet]

That's the real draw of a lot of these so-called CSS frameworks - glorified themes, a convenient way for the aesthetically-challenged (not throwing shade, I count myself among them) to produce something that looks better than a dog's behind.

[safe dragon]

I stick to primarily internal tooling websites for good reason

[rotund violet]

But if all you really need is a decent palette and some guidelines around whitespace, there are sites dedicated to that specifically.

For example, https://colorffy.com/ui-palette-generator follows the same general guidelines of one primary and one accent/secondary color, with different lightnesses for different nesting levels, and even spits out a CSS file with all the variables.

That's like, 80% of the good stuff you get from Tailwind. Another 10% is typography which there are also tools for, like https://baseline.is/tools/type-scale-generator/.

And then the rest is just rounded corners and whitespace to taste.

[sonic mirage]

Are large factor in bothering to set up and use SCSS in a project was for variables, but with custom properties (AKA variables) in CSS, that's greatly diminished.

[rotund violet]

Yeah, CSS variables were probably the biggest innovation since calc. Together they make SASS and similar precompilers mostly obsolete.

[sonic mirage]

Not a big fan of the --double-hyphen: value; syntax, though

[rotund violet]

I guess they had to make everyone happy when they wrote the standard, and hyphens are understood (or at least ignored) by existing parsers while prefixes like @ might not be backward compatible.

It's been a long time since I used SASS so I got used to CSS variables pretty quickly.

[sonic mirage]

I understand that, but I still feel like they could've found a better option

[safe dragon]

yeah with css variables, sass is no longer worth the effort to me

[devout vault]

Well, you could use a CSS preprocessor like SASS which supports variables

[safe dragon]

or just... css which also supports variables

[ivory shadow]

Honestly, the big thing keeping me on SASS for the longest time was nesting, not CSS variables.

[safe dragon]

I have a bias against SASS because in an old project we need node/npm purely for sass which was far more pain than it was worth

eventually we just deleted the scss files and pretended they never existed

[ivory shadow]

I just was scrolling back, and I completely missed this question earlier. So I should post the full thing.