"Yeah, we might do this eventually. Closing."
#programmers-off-topic
ivory shadow
I really want to know why, if you couldn't already do it, that it wasn't "actionable for the design repo" since adding a new feature sounds like the reason to have a design repo???
Still not finalized I guess
WASM is wild to me
crystal wren
So what... what does it do if you do try to free something?
ivory shadow
That's the neat part. It doesn't.
Well, there's this experimental memory.discard feature that your compiler needs to be aware of.
And it only works for pages. And only pages at the end of the memory space?
So you might need to reorganize all your memory space before you can free memory
JS language developers making the most over the top JIT and stuff for JS
vs
JS language developers making basic memory management for WASM
dusty pollen
"Yeah, we might do this eventually. Closing."
also closed as completed 
ivory shadow
I think that was before GitHub added a differentiation between "closed as completed" and "closed as not implemented" or whatever it is
dusty pollen
that’s possible, but it’s funnier to assume that they think saying they aren’t going to do something counts as completing it
regal ingot
Some clever person in the 90s threw together a tech demo in a couple of weeks and then Mark Andreessen said "neat, we're shipping it in our next release". Brendan Eich has been known to be pretty apologetic about it in the programming languages community.
ivory shadow
Ah. That makes sense too. I've never actually looked into that part of things beyond knowing it started with Netscape.
dusty pollen
Some clever person in the 90s threw together a tech demo in a couple of weeks an...
I guess it's not the worst thing Marc Andreessen ever released 
also I had no idea he was involved with javascript for some reason
god, 2 billion dollars net worth, must be nice...
fleet wren
1995 - Brendan Eich reads up on every mistake ever made in designing a programming language, invents a few more, and creates LiveScript. Later, in an effort to cash in on the popularity of Java the language is renamed JavaScript. Later still, in an effort to cash in on the popularity of skin diseases the language is renamed ECMAScript.
heavy daggerBOT
New quote added by wopr1234 as #6321 (https://discordapp.com/channels/137344473976799233/1215712021207720006/1341975842393165844)
fleet wren
(I appreciate the quote even though I'm not the author)
that would be this brilliant and wholly factual blog post: http://james-iry.blogspot.com/2009/05/brief-incomplete-and-mostly-wrong.html
warped adder
does anyone know a tool that would let me open an xml file written without a single paragraph break and like, automatically tree it?
safe dragon
automatically from the cli?
I'd assume any formatting tool that supports XML should work but I've never used em
considering xhtml its fairly likely even an html formatter can handle it
so even like, prettier's cli tool
though they don't list support
guess it's a plugin https://github.com/prettier/plugin-xml
lethal walrus
I hate javascript array's empty items
you can't .forEach them, you can't .map them, they don't affect .length
you have to do Array.from(array, element => element ?? null) to replace them with null
lethal walrus
const arr = []
arr[4] = 'fifth element'
arr // [ <4 empty items>, 'fifth element' ]
and to make it worse
> arr.length // 5 > arr.map(x => x ?? null) // [ <4 empty items>, 'fifth element' ] > arr.forEach(e => console.log(e)) // fifth element
indentation what did you do
safe dragon
imagine a world where Javascript was willing to throw errors sometimes
instead of trying to roll with it
at least in this case if you use your arrays like a normal person you'd never run into this beyond not getting an index out of bounds exception when you expect one
dusty pollen
```js
const arr = []
arr[4] = 'fifth element'
arr // [ <4 empty items>, 'fifth ...
isn’t this because arrays are just objects essentially? lmao
(in javascript, not in general ofc)
safe dragon
yes
lethal walrus
isn’t this because arrays are just objects essentially? lmao
mhm
same reason why
const arr = [1,2,3]
console.log(3 in arr) // false
const arr2 = ['cat', 'dog', 'mouse']
console.log(1 in arr2) // true
console.log('cat' in arr2) // false
the fuck is this
safe dragon
didn't even know Javascript had the in keyword
fleet wren
JS' in is a joke keyword added on a dare
I'm qualified to make that statement as someone paid to code in JS
rain apex
Is there something in js that isn't joke
cinder karma
I'm glad I'm not paid for Javascript
crystal wren
someone help me in my c++ problem
Just ask away! Saves time waiting for someone to ask you what the problem is then you needing to wait for a response to that.
ember coral
Just ask away! Saves time waiting for someone to ask you what the problem is the...
I don't know what happened, I re-open VS Studio and the warning is gone.
code is working good 
dusty pollen
mhm
same reason why
```
const arr = [1,2,3]
console.log(3 in arr) // false
cons...
does javascript have the “of” notation or do you do some kind of in arr.values() thing 
or is there a contains method
it’s been a while since I broke stuff with javascript
lethal walrus
does javascript have the “of” notation or do you do some kind of `in arr.values(...
as in
for (const element of array) console.log(element)
```?it does
dusty pollen
that’s the one
I admit I’m utterly incapable of remembering which way around in and of are
lethal walrus
for the indexes you need to do for (const index in array) console.log(array[index]) though
dusty pollen
see say what you will about python but
for ind,val in enumerate(lst):
print(f’lst[{ind}] = {val}’)
is a kinda fun syntax to have
lethal walrus
i can never remember if it's index, value or value, index
safe dragon
enumerate does the same thing in a bunch of other languages including rust
ivory shadow
I see this channel once again became #javascript-is-awful
safe dragon
as per usual
rotund violet
you can't .forEach them, you can't .map them, they don't affect .length
you have...
If you use the spread operator, you can replace the empty elements with undefined.
[...arr].map(e => e ?? "not empty") // ['not empty', 'not empty', 'not empty', 'not empty', 'fifth element']
Better than Array.from to me. (I just used the map to demonstrate that map works, the de-emptification is just [...arr])
lethal walrus
oo
safe dragon
for the indexes you need to do `for (const index in array) console.log(array[ind...
const in something like really bothers me
supple ether
I wish using .Length on a string constant would just get compiled as a constant number
safe dragon
in C#?
that’s not more than a value lookup regardless is it
the length of the string is just a basic part of storing one in memory as far as I know
I guess that’s probably the length in bytes
supple ether
I know, but it means it can't benefit from constant operations
supple ether
I think it does ldstr and then calls the property getter
safe dragon
disappointing
supple ether
yeah
maybe the JIT can optimize it out
I notice that it does at least replace callvirt with call
supple ether
counting characters it is then /jk
cinder karma
To be fair my looked into it was looking at the linqpad disassemble
supple ether
tbh I usually don't go deeper than the IL since the jit varies by platform anyways
supple ether
despite being unoptimized it's still useful for some things
cinder karma
Yeah but I'm not seeing tiered
Just the init jit
Maybe the rejit does it, i don't know
supple ether
lol
safe dragon
the language has at least been getting noticeably faster in the last few years…
cinder karma
Lolllllllll
safe dragon
deep drum
question for people that know C# better than me:
How bad are LINQ queries really? I generally avoid them bc I've benchmarked and they usually take more memory and time because of extra allocators / enumerators
Is the upside just cleaner looking code at the expense of performance? Or am I just too embedded-pilled?
marble jewel
Some of the "LINQ is slow" is outdated info depending on the .NET runtime version and which LINQ method you're using.
dusty pollen
ngl I think some people avoid things like that without considering if that's even really going to make a difference for their use case. Like if you're already writing some wildly unoptimised code then linq will likely not be what makes it slower (not saying this is you, this is just something I noticed people do)
safe dragon
if you’re in .NET 9 specifically then I wouldn’t worry much about LINQ unless you are really at a strict performance budget and the overhead of allocating a closure is already by itself a major issue
marble jewel
Obligatory Nick Chapsas video https://youtu.be/xFsSEaa6tjA?si=3-IOE5jhOuteEzro
safe dragon
in versions before that it’s worth more caution but still
I did extensive benchmarking with .NET 9 for advent of code recently and often the performance difference was negligible
there were a few where removing it was valuable but meh
that was in hyper optimized scenarios
safe dragon
Obligatory Nick Chapsas video https://youtu.be/xFsSEaa6tjA?si=3-IOE5jhOuteEzro
Or more straight to the point:
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/performance-improvements-in-net-9/#linq
bless stephen toub
I look forward more to these blogposts than any feature announcement
though I admit discriminated unions will be a tough competition
LINQ is still slower than iterators in something like Rust, but it’s no longer as bad as it was once known to be
the biggest criticism I have for LINQ as it stands now is that it’s not as performant as I’d like at chaining multiple of them in a row unless that specific combination has been given special treatment
rain apex
I wish there's a SelectWhere linq
safe dragon
in rust the iterators generally just completely disappear after compilation, often turning into highly optimized code
I do wish LINQ was like that
alas, C# is not rust
marble jewel
But how about Javascript, is that rust?
safe dragon
yes, they are identical
mozilla built rust to be exactly like the language they so lovingly build a runtime for
marble jewel
safe dragon
🙏
safe dragon
I don’t want to know what kind of cursed shit javascript iterators do
rain apex
This is the only explanation in my mind
ivory shadow
I remember the good old days, when async functions in JavaScript weren't natively supported so transpiler abused the hell out of generators to simulate it
By good old day I mean "now" because people still have their bundlers configured to do that for some reason
safe dragon
the past is now old man
.NET also technically has no concept of async does it
at least not till the potential maybe future async2
rotund violet
question for people that know C# better than me:
How bad are LINQ queries really...
It's mostly a bunch of FUD. There's tiny, tiny overhead for the delegates themselves, most of the "slowness" is just people writing really inefficient queries.
ivory shadow
Also an iterator in JS is any object that has a next() method that returns a {value: any, done: boolean} technically
rotund violet
(.NET 9 makes LINQ even faster than the non-LINQ equivalents sometimes, but even in .NET 6 it's nothing to even remotely worry about unless you're very specifically trying to optimize a very specific path)
ivory shadow
You can use Symbol.iterator to get an iterator something that can be iterated. Like ```js
let x = [1, 2, 3];
let y = xSymbol.iterator;
console.log(y.next());
// {value: 1, done: false}
incredible
ivory shadow
Aside: Iterators are fuckin slow in JS if they haven't been optimized out by the JIT
ivory shadow
Function call overhead is huge in JS
This is also why I will stab anyone who uses .forEach(el => { }) instead of a for loop
safe dragon
btw shoutout to my underappreciated favorite LINQ method OfType<T>
it has helped me clean up some very ugly code a fair few times
safe dragon
This is also why I will stab anyone who uses `.forEach(el => { })` instead of a ...
tbh you should also stab anyone who uses the List.ForEach in C#
not sure why it exists cause it’s recommended not to use it
marble jewel
Yeah you should be using Parallel.ForEach to up your game, because more cores /s
safe dragon
to be fair, that can have phenomenal results at times
marble jewel
Like when you really, really have a lot of things, and can benefit from parallelism. Otherwise, I've seen a bunch of people throw that in expect free gains, only to find that it's slower than a regular loop.
safe dragon
it’d be very funny to a see a codebase where someone just went around and replaced every foreach with that one tho
with no regard for race conditions either
ivory shadow
what do you mean synchronization and context switching isn't free
safe dragon
you’re reminding me of my old job btw where someone decided we had to run SonarQube code analysis on our build pipelines with anything it found was to be treated as an error that would block the PR from being merged.
After it was introduced we had to painstakingly go through our codebase and replace a million uses of LINQ with list/array specific versions of those methods…. then like 1 month later stephen toub releases his blog post about the LINQ perf improvements in .NET 9
and now as it turns out LINQ is often faster than those list/array methods
so we just wasted hours of our lives satisfying some code analysis tool only for it to bite us almost immediately
ivory shadow
something something premature optimization
marble jewel
And then there's also the debilitating rate of return where you spend excessive amounts of time hyperfocused on nanoseconds of savings while there are much more pressing issues to address
safe dragon
in my last month there was given the freedom to look into perf issues and there was a method we used that was called every single time an endpoint was called to do some authorization checks. Turns out it was horrendously built and extremely inefficient and was singlehandedly adding over 10 ms of latency to every single request we handled + several MB of memory allocations that would then have to be GC’ed
the method it was using was “optimized” in the sense that it had caching to prevent database roundtrips but there was actually only a single cache entry which contained literally all authorization data
that was a fun one
it was the last PR I merged at that company
honestly it was a fun month
simply being given a month to finally look into problems that had been bothering me for years in some cases and finally doing something about them
safe dragon
And then there's also the debilitating rate of return where you spend excessive ...
can definitely confirm…
marble jewel
At work there was someone trying to optimize the query performance of a report, and they were spending a bunch of time trying to get tables with less than 1000 rows to stop doing full table scans. I was like, stop looking there and start looking at your trillion row cartesian product join.
safe dragon
cartesian products sound fancy so they can’t be slow
marble jewel
They were basically like, why slow?
SELECT *
FROM table1, table2
Where table 1 and table 2 each had billions of rows.
And of course, they try to blame the technology for not understanding what they were trying to do
safe dragon
they should’ve banned that syntax honestly and forced people to write CROSS JOIN so they’d be more aware of what it is that they’re really doing
I shiver thinking about the sheer number of N+1 query problems that same API had through entity framework though
red crest
They were basically like, why slow?
```sql
SELECT *
FROM table1, table2
```
Wher...
thats only two lines though, could even be just one. arent one liners supposed to be the ideal end-game when it comes to good code? /s
safe dragon
while(true) {} is really fast
red crest
so true
safe dragon
we had a bunch of database engineers optimizing a gazillion stored procedures we had but at the same time our api used entity framework with little to no regard for performance
was good stuff
marble jewel
The funny thing is, this was their "proof" that the cloud wasn't faster than on-prem because the query could never complete. And meanwhile the screen showed that it was processing billions of rows a second.
safe dragon
I mean I do fear the cloud services bill when you’re doing that
we looked into cloud databases at that job as well but it would’ve been so expensive it wasn’t feasible
the whole infrastructure was built around making databases do just way too much work with hundreds of gigantic stored procedures constantly being run
dusty pollen
thats only two lines though, could even be just one. arent one liners supposed t...
it's like how people always talk about not being able to solve P = NP when obviously P=0 or N=1? /lh
fleet wren
This is also why I will stab anyone who uses `.forEach(el => { })` instead of a ...
to be fair to forEach for...of didnt exist when it was created
ivory shadow
To be unfair, it was even slower compared to a for loop back then than it is now. Now v8 has a lot of optimizations for it
dusty pollen
to be a contrarian, arrow syntax looks weird and therefore must be faster
safe dragon
to be wrong, forEach actually has time complexity of O(1) and is much faster
marble jewel
But you know what though, doing nothing has a time complexity of O() so the only way to win the game is to not play
ivory shadow
to be wrong, forEach actually has time complexity of O(1) and is much faster
Ah yes Quantum.forEach
deep drum
strange copper
This is my fav
dusty pollen
is this some kind of homework?
ember coral
I did it
frosty echo
rain apex
what is the difference between using Tuple vs ValueTuple for dictionary key
supple ether
ValueTuple is a struct, Tuple is a reference type. ValueTuple is hashed by value, not sure if Tuple is.
cinder karma
hashed by value, oui
rain apex
i always forget which one is which ty
cinder karma
ValueTuple is the value type
tbh I consider Tuple deprecated (in favor of ValueTuple), I basically nver use Tuple
rotund violet
ValueTuple is just the backing type for named tuples like (foo: 12, bar: 34). Value tuples let you use named properties, regular Tuple types don't. On the other hand, value tuples being value types will be annoying in some cases like if you want to use an extension like FirstOrDefault and have it be null.
Both tuples are fine for dictionary keys, although honestly you really should just define a record if it's important enough to be used as a key. Unless the whole data structure is private.
thin estuary
i can't believe FirstOrNull for value types isn't a built-in method, especially considering pattern matching is a thing
silver basin
(it's slightly related to Stardew) I want to try and find an optimal layout (or near optimal) for a mushroom log farm, I do it via 19x19 grid in hope for finding some pattern. but im not sure what algorithm(s) should I look at, that could maybe help with it
dusty pollen
(it's slightly related to Stardew) I want to try and find an optimal layout (or ...
what parameters are you trying to optimise?
cinder karma
My dumbass initial strategy would just be to go for a greedy strategy and see what that produces
Ie, start with all x. Swap some out for y. Better? Keep it. Not better? Revert
Is this optimal? Nah
Does it work reasonably well? Sure
dusty pollen
Depends on what we’re trying to optimise ig aren’t mushroom logs just “if tree is within square of tiles x wide, add y chance to spawn mushroom z”?
dusty pollen
pretty sure that’s just controlled by type of tree
silver basin
what parameters are you trying to optimise?
Highest average profit
dusty pollen
now if we’re trying to optimise for gold there’s a bit more of an optimisation problem, but I assume not since this seems like— nvm I am wrong lmao
yeah that’s an interesting one, but I don’t think you need an algorithm for it, you just need to calculate to price vs probabilities for each individual tree then pick the best one
silver basin
And it's a bit more than that, because there's also to consider amount of big trees and small trees
dusty pollen
big trees and small trees?
there’s no situation where the optimal solution would have more than one tree in range, anyway
if I remember how the logs work correctly, that is
silver basin
Saplings or fully grown. Small trees don't add to the list of types their tree type mushroom, and also cant get moss so always considered as one tree for the quality counting
dusty pollen
oh, I forgot about the quality part (/ didn’t realise it existed)
does the number of trees increase quality?
dusty pollen
so we’re essentially weighing when adding a tree stops adding enough profit to offset losing a log
ngl I’d just make some equations and plug into a graphing calculator if it were me
silver basin
Yep, all while putting as much machines to benefit from those trees
dusty pollen
(but that’s just how I approach most things)
do the machines have to fit within the 19x19 square?
silver basin
Yes
dusty pollen
now THAT’S an optimisation problem on our hands for sure under these constraints
shouldn’t be too tricky to formalise and put into a constraints optimiser though
silver basin
You also need to make sure you can reach all mushroomogs
dusty pollen
oh, no automate then?
silver basin
Vanilla sounds more fun to solve (also much harder)
dusty pollen
idk how you’d add the reachability tbh you might be right about an ml algorithm being more correct in that case
silver basin
Because now we introduce a global constraint (I believe), you need to have at least one empty space around every log and it needs to have a path of empty spaces to the edge of the grid
dusty pollen
the question is if you actually want to get the optimal result or if you want to mess with some fun but probably very inefficient algorithms because a codebullet-style neural net with 19x19 outputs sounds real fun rn
it’s the path that will cause the biggest issue, because now they have to be aware of their position and the locations of the other logs (much more so than just “put a tree within x tiles”)
silver basin
I didn't really think ml, and yeah I want a result in the end
dusty pollen
all optimisation algorithms that work by getting a value and improving it are technically ml!
tbh, constraint optimisers are also ml
silver basin
Yeah I guess, just calling it learning feels wrong
dusty pollen
ig in this context, improvement is a type of learning
regression is the classic form of ml though so it definitely counts
silver basin
The other placement constraint is obviously big trees unable to be next to each other
dusty pollen
(wait, are you a fellow Hebrew speaker?)
silver basin
The only assumption I managed to think of to maybe reduce amount of options is that we probably want the least amount of empty spaces
Because if it doesn't block anything just put a tree there to improve results or at least a machine
dusty pollen
I’d say since everything probably needs to be reachable, you can start by planning an optimal “mask” that fits the most reachable tiles in a 19x19 square
trees don’t actually need to be reachable but you can tweak solutions afterwards
rather than having the reachability be part of the optimisation
silver basin
trees don’t _actually_ need to be reachable but you can tweak solutions afterwar...
It's not even actually, they don't need at all, reachability is only for logs and empty spaces
dusty pollen
yeah, but assuming everything has to be reachable will make it easier to separate the two steps
depending on how many trees your solution has will change how much you’re losing by doing this though
silver basin
My biggest problem is what to use for the improvement part
dusty pollen
formalising the pathing requirements will be possible but tricky. If you want to go that route, you can go for a classic constraint satisfaction/optimisation solver
otherwise, you’re looking at some naive greedy algorithm like atra suggested, or some more ml-type methods
what’s the area for mushroom logs? a 7x7 square or something?
silver basin
otherwise, you’re looking at some naive greedy algorithm like atra suggested, or...
Greedy solution sounds like months of compute time
silver basin
what’s the area for mushroom logs? a 7x7 square or something?
Yep that's it
dusty pollen
Greedy solution sounds like months of compute time
I’m not so sure in this case tbh, since it should be pretty well-suited for greedy solutions to work well
cinder karma
Greedy is the cheap version
It's fast to program, fast to run, but isn't guaranteed to produce the best solution
Keep in mind programmer time is expensive and computer is cheap
dusty pollen
(though in this case I’d imagine it will actually be pretty close)
7x7 doesn’t fit nicely into 19x19 but you could always optimise one 7x7 region, one 7x5 region and one 5x5 region
cinder karma
So it's a do this first, get your constrains in, and be more sophisticated when that is running
dusty pollen
which should cover the entire area using 4 7x7s, 4 7x5s and 1 5x5
silver basin
7x7 doesn’t fit nicely into 19x19 but you could always optimise one 7x7 region, ...
19x19 is pretty random
cinder karma
Sometimes at work I have the computer just run simulations while I think, because the computer is an order of magnitude cheaper than I am lol
silver basin
Just tried to think on a large enough area for patterns to repeat
cinder karma
19x19 is hard because 19 is a prime
dusty pollen
oh, I thought that was the amount of space you had available. Just do 7x7 then
cinder karma
I would ignore edge effects at the start tbh
silver basin
I would ignore edge effects at the start tbh
?
cinder karma
Make it an infinite repeating pattern of 7x7
Ignore the edges, pretend it just repeats infinitely
dusty pollen
the question is, if you have an infinite grid, should you cram machines “into” the 7x7 squares or have borders of machines “between” them, which one loses you more
but that’s a question for someone with more brain capacity than me rn 
silver basin
Ignore the edges, pretend it just repeats infinitely
So it's an infinite grid but it must repeat a 7x7 grid?
dusty pollen
the question is, if you have an infinite grid, should you cram machines “into” t...
(my guess is the former is better but it depends on the number of machines)
cinder karma
I've been awake since 5:30 AM!
cinder karma
So it's an infinite grid but it must repeat a 7x7 grid?
Yeah, infinit grid, NxN repeat for n between like 5 and 15 to start
silver basin
That actually means calculating profit for a 10x10
Because there are machines affected there
dusty pollen
I wonder if there are any internet satsolvers
silver basin
Ooooh I see why though, because each machine is affected only by the decided placement of 7x7 around them, so that also means I can decide on one tile already, the center is always mushroom log
Now last thing I need to think for a greedy solution is, best way to decide what to change in a way that doesn't break constraints, because random will be slow because every choice also means calculating profit and verifying constraints, and also can sometimes be really horrible because of local maxima
dusty pollen
I think the center would be better off as a tree
since you can have the same ten trees serving however many machines
(kind of like how people optimise beehouses by piling them up around a single flower)
silver basin
since you can have the same ten trees serving however many machines
Big or small?
I guess I can try both
And the reachability must be part of those constraints because grids that doesn't meet this will most of the time be much more profitable
I remember that I once tried to do it via an iterative and really recursive (I had to increase the stack a lot) wave function collapsed inspired way, I did wave function expansion, by starting with no possibilities and adding them, with also collapsing some. But it didn't look promising on compute time
But maybe doing it greedily and on 7x7 will be enough (note for atra: it was written in Rust)
safe dragon
I have expanded my horizons beyond property.SetValue into the land of Expression
very impressive memory usage improvement in my database reader
also faster, though that wasn't really my primary goal since the database will always remain the big bottleneck there
looks like SetValue was responsible for like 15% of the total memory used in the entire retrieval process
sonic mirage
List<int>? test = new() { 1, 2, 3, 4 };
int literallyZero = 0;
if (test?.Any() ?? false && literallyZero == 1)
{
Console.WriteLine("IF");
}
else
{
Console.WriteLine("ELSE");
}
Operator precedence is sooo fun
cinder karma
Work today: trying to figure out why my assert (obviously false thing) wasn't working
sonic mirage
Was it a null coalescing operator having stupid behavior?
cinder karma
No, automated runner bullshit
sonic mirage
It was probably somehow a cache invalidation issue if you go deep enough 
cinder karma
```cs
List<int>? test = new() { 1, 2, 3, 4 };
int literallyZero = 0;
if (test?....
(I have VS configured to require parens for clarity for this)
sonic mirage
Probably a good idea, though now that I know I'll be even more parenthesis paranoid
cinder karma
Trust me it took half the day just getting up and running with the correct version of python
sonic mirage
I spent half a day last week determining that a sometimes-loaded library backported PHP's Error class in its compat/polyfill files, and that caused our framework's ErrorHandler class to fail to load when exceptions were thrown, since ErrorHandler was - in contradiction to the framework's normal class file naming convention - kept in error.php. So for 8 years I would sometimes get an error about ErrorHandler instead of the actual error from the thing I was working on.
cinder karma
It happens, lol
then I made a very stupid typo in my system verilog and it took me ages to find because, again, I had to track down where teh automated runner was logging things
(and the second I saw the actual error message I was like "oh duh" but you know what it's like.)
(I can't spell, lol.)
sonic mirage
Yeah once I found that a class called Error existed already I knew the framework's automagic core class loader was the issue
rain apex
how many nested tertiaries do you allow yourself to have b4 it feels bad
dusty pollen
```cs
List<int>? test = new() { 1, 2, 3, 4 };
int literallyZero = 0;
if (test?....
?? not being stronger than && is madness
worn remnant
really though, nesting them at all already feels nasty
in my experience, nesting ternary operators is a bug factory and a maintenance headache, so i avoid it
but part of that is, like, lexical paralysis, which is also what makes multiple negatives so difficult for me to understand and makes lisps (language family) so hard for me to deal with
cinder karma
The more I learn about windows paths the more I want to throw windows away
pliant snow
You'll accept the fact there's no relative path from the C to D drive and you'll like it
pliant snow
What is the //?/
lethal walrus
in my experience, nesting ternary operators is a bug factory and a maintenance h...
I just do const xyz = (()=>{return 1245678})()
ivory shadow
Finally time to see what Framework is showing off today.
(URL for their event livestream: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-8k7jTF_JCg)
crystal wren
I've seen speculation of a Framework 14...
safe dragon
framework 14 and 15 and 17
I've seen a lot of speculation
printers, gaming handhelds, 2-in-1s...
ivory shadow
Framework 49
crystal wren
Getting straight to it, I see.
crystal wren
Going for the Ryzen AI, huh...
safe dragon
despite the name it is a really good chip
crystal wren
Yeah, no, they're really good.
ivory shadow
Even if AI has nothing to do with it, slapping AI on the name is good marketing in the current environment
safe dragon
it has an NPU so slap that ai label on there
crystal wren
I don't know I've ever heard of those Ryzen AI APUs outside of the context of soldered RAM, though...
safe dragon
oh yeah no idea actually
it wouldn't be their first mainboard with soldered ram but the other one was the RISC-V experimental one
crystal wren
Huh, Lite-On make the keyboards? Don't think I knew that.
cinder karma
Favorite pdf markup software, go
safe dragon
none
crystal wren
Yes.
safe dragon
no pdfs always wins
cinder karma
Well that isn't a ducking option
safe dragon
copilot button
crystal wren
No Windows key at all, though. Fair tradeoff.
safe dragon
no keys at all
crystal wren
Framework Tablet.
safe dragon
dude just threw the new laptop while on stage
crystal wren
Ah, GBA purple transluscent bezel.
ivory shadow
Atomic purple
safe dragon
I still have one of those pink translucent gbas
crystal wren
I have to admit, the 2nd gen thing had me slightly worried about a shiny new chassis style I would want and not be able to use my existing stuff f or.
safe dragon
ortholinear is great but only if it's split
which would be rather impressive on a laptop
ivory shadow
Of all the types of keyboard I can type well on, ortholinear is not one of them
worn remnant
ortholinear, huh? i enjoy those
safe dragon
I'm typing on an ortholinear keyboard right now
worn remnant
same
crystal wren
(Atra, you got a helpful response! )
sand frost
It makes the files really huge but satisfies my urge to write things by hand
(And I can squash the files back down when I need)
ivory shadow
I have never in my life marked up a PDF and I appreciate the choices that led me here
sand frost
Downside: uses an iPad
crystal wren
Ryzen AI Max in the 16? Those really are good.
cinder karma
It makes the files really huge but satisfies my urge to write things by hand
I'm not gonna get Auth to buy an entire ipad
sand frost
I am sure other tablets would also work
safe dragon
ah shit
cinder karma
Lol
sand frost
But idk if they have good native apps for PDF markup
sand frost
tragicc
cinder karma
Right now I'm just screenshotting the pdf
safe dragon
oh shit
sand frost
I also use Preview
sand frost
(Atra, you got a helpful response! <:SDVkrobusgiggle:898395746875875379>)
helpful is a generous description here tbh
(Preview on my Mac, lol)
crystal wren
Hey, I also built an Athlon XP!
sand frost
my fiance uses windows and says most of the PDF apps for windows suck
safe dragon
wait so is the only thing they actually announced for the framework 16 a key
crystal wren
And Ryzen AI Max I think?
safe dragon
I'm not 100% if that's only for the mini pc
ivory shadow
So... it's just a prebuilt.
crystal wren
It... might be, yeah.
crystal wren
Access to Ryzen AI Max on a regular style mainboard is pretty useful, though.
worn remnant
"as quiet as possible" is not "silent" but i'm still sort of interested
safe dragon
it's neat I suppose?
pliant snow
oh i missed the announcement thing
safe dragon
it's still going
crystal wren
safe dragon
though I have no idea if that's it for things I'll actually care about
crystal wren
Yeah, I'm thinking the important stuff is over now... maybe?
cinder karma
my fiance uses windows and says most of the PDF apps for windows suck
Yeah, I only can have windoss
crystal wren
(I've never had to markup a PDF though, sadly!)
safe dragon
so 13 inch got some good stuff, 16 inch got like... a key
crystal wren
I still hope the AI Max can go in the 16 too, but I think you're right.
crystal wren
Price for being able to use the AI Max, probably.
safe dragon
I guess it wouldn't be surprising if this was some requirement from amd
crystal wren
It's so good that if it can go in a 16, I might need to start saving up for one.
safe dragon
if it can go in one I will get one
I was literally waiting for this presentation before deciding to buy a framework laptop
crystal wren
If not, the 16 got... a single key.
safe dragon
if you buy many it's many keys
ivory shadow
I'm still waiting for a couple more months of Nexus DP before I order a laptop.
safe dragon
this is depressing to watch
ivory shadow
We literally just want to know about hardware and they literally just talk about AMD garbage
crystal wren
I wouldn't be shocked if this AI stuff was also AMD.
safe dragon
without a doubt
I do think on chip coding "copilot" stuff is a really promising thing but why in my framework event
pliant snow
they're making a mini pc?
ivory shadow
I already have a several thousand dollar PC framework I need a laptop
safe dragon
yeah
crystal wren
With Ryzen AI Max, yeah.
pliant snow
theyre making a desktop pc without upgradable RAM?
crystal wren
Is he-
pliant snow
Sure, but their whole marketing was a laptop series with upgradable parts
safe dragon
to be fair... the soldered ram is part of why it's so good at what it does
but
this is so sad to watch
crystal wren
It's a good tradeoff for super specific workloads, but... not any I ever want.
ivory shadow
Yeah, and 90% of this presentation has been about... a non-laptop with non-upgradeable parts and AI
safe dragon
the 10% is the framework 13 announcements at the start
the rest is AI and minipc
is this the end of the amd contract shit
pliant snow
How much did they say these are
crystal wren
$1,999
safe dragon
2k
ivory shadow
"The easiest PC that you'll ever build" as if... building a PC is hard?
crystal wren
I don't think it counts as building a PC if the CPU and cooler are preinstalled.
pliant snow
so all three are AI Max, just different RAM levels
safe dragon
ye
pliant snow
But really the only people who will buy this are local AI people
crystal wren
Nothing new for the Framework 16 it seems, by the way.
crystal wren
Framework phone?
safe dragon
the last thing is a big fuck you sign
pliant snow
the framework toaster
safe dragon
it's a whole printer
crystal wren
...12?!
safe dragon
even smaller?
pliant snow
theres the touchscreen
ivory shadow
Okay that's interesting
crystal wren
...
safe dragon
oh so it is a 2 in 1
crystal wren
Okay, I might want this.
pliant snow
i like this actually
pliant snow
1920x1200
ivory shadow
oh my god that sound lmao
safe dragon
wow... colors
safe dragon
wow pink AND bubblegum!
crystal wren
I thought Pinky Chen was a colour name for a split second, and was very confused.
pliant snow
the different colored bezels looked stupid on the 13"
safe dragon
they do
pliant snow
its got that padding they give to ipads for children
crystal wren
I get the impression it's meant to be more for kids though, so I guess they're going for the...
Yeah.
Amazon Fire kids style.
pliant snow
they might yet
safe dragon
that's all I wanted...
pliant snow
im realy surprised this is intel only, considered how AMD focused they are with the other product
safe dragon
recap 
pliant snow
I wonder if the 16 didn't sell
crystal wren
Yeah, no AI Max on the 16. 
safe dragon
made the same joke twice
pliant snow
I like the 12
crystal wren
I have a Surface I use now and again, and this would honestly be a pretty great replacement for it.
safe dragon
I just wanted a new mainboard for the 16"
pliant snow
I was expecting for them to offer a touchscreen for the 13
crystal wren
They have to now they have one for the 12... right?
Even if it needs a modified bezel for it because it's smaller.
pliant snow
I honestly suspect they couldn't get one in the right aspect ratio
crystal wren
The 13 is 16:10, isn't it?
cinder karma
Give me 16inches or give me better glasses tbh
safe dragon
I'm waiting in line for the website again just to confirm that indeed did fuckin nothing for the 16"
guess the 2nd generation of framework does not include the 16" laptop
pliant snow
i thought the 16 was the 2nd generation of framework
crystal wren
I don't think it's that it didn't sell well, though.
I mean they made that NVMe expansion thing for it.
And that was... pretty recent?
pliant snow
what was the thing they announced for the 16"?
crystal wren
A key.
pliant snow
like... a single button?
ivory shadow
A key switch so that manufacturers can create custom keyboards
crystal wren
safe dragon
this was so shit I'm now reconsidering even getting a framework laptop
pliant snow
oof
ivory shadow
LTT has a video about the new framework stuff up now, haven't watched it yet.
pliant snow
He's literally an investor, I imagine it'll be a fluff piece
ivory shadow
Yeah, I am aware.
fleet wren
havent been following, huh what happened
I thought it was going to be about the new laptop but it seems like it's anything but?
ivory shadow
Oh interesting. Framework 12 doesn't have a ribbon cable going to the keyboard/touchpad, so taking off that part to access the internals is easier.
Oh. Only one RAM slot.
Intel Core i3-1215u or an i3-1334u.
cinder karma
Ew
pliant snow
single channel RAM?
ivory shadow
Yup.
crystal wren
I was okay with Intel, but...
ivory shadow
Single channel RAM and i3s
crystal wren
Single-channel RAM and an i3? Um...
ivory shadow
If this isn't like $500 I don't know who they expect to buy it
crystal wren
They were talking like it was specifically targeted at a lower price bracket, so it would have to be to make any sense.
ivory shadow
It also has an internal screw that can be used to lock the expansion cards into place, which makes me think this is going to be targeted at businesses and schools and such
I could see these being popular with some businesses entirely because it's a repairable 2-in-1 laptop.
pliant snow
I do wonder with the padding if they're not aimed at education or something
Their chromebook line died off didnt it
crystal wren
They did mention education specifically, yeah.
Oh, interesting.
The 13 is getting a new keyboard, too.
rain apex
Is there framework gaming chair
ivory shadow
Yeah, they're changing the larger keys from metal to plastic because the metal had bad vibes
dusty pollen
are the parts purchaseable individually? that's a big thing for me
ivory shadow
Depending on what you mean by parts, yes
pliant snow
Their keyboards are, yes
Speaker volume is def one of the negatives on the 13, so it's interesting they can improve it
dusty pollen
it really annoys me that this single keycap on this laptop being broken isn't fixable because dell don't even sell replacement keyboards, much less so keycaps. So the more is purchaseable separately the better
pliant snow
Speaker volume is cranked up through a novel mechanical structure
Not pointing the speakers downwards
crystal wren
Yeah, they're changing the larger keys from metal to plastic because the metal h...
The larger keys? They're all plastic on my 13...
pliant snow
I think the support structure of the space bar is metal, if thats what they mean
ivory shadow
Something internal then I guess?
safe dragon
so wtf do I do now
I went into this practically convinced there would be a new 16" mainboard
pliant snow
What do you want in a laptop
safe dragon
edit photos while on the go
ivory shadow
The lack of a new 16 mainboard is annoying
It's at the point in the life cycle where I feel like "a new one's gonna come out right after I buy one and then what"
dusty pollen
the trick is to refuse to ever buy new laptops and continue using the same nearly decade old laptops until they literally don't boot any more
safe dragon
my current laptop is genuinely a decade old
dusty pollen
I think I even have an old thinkpad laying around here somewhere 
ivory shadow
My current laptop is from 2014 and the keyboard barely works at best
Battery only holds like 15 minutes of power
dusty pollen
I have two laptops in active use rn both from 2016, and a few that I haven't set up yet that are older
ivory shadow
HDD has long since died and it's coasting on an SSD
sonic mirage
I watched the whole livestream without knowing we were live-reacting to it in here
safe dragon
my laptop no longer is capable of holding charge
be it the laptop battery or the CMOS battery
dusty pollen
oh yeah, did you replace that in the end?
safe dragon
I have not
pliant snow
well, there's a lot of laptops if all you care about is photo editing
sonic mirage
Super curious on the 12" pricing, that thing has got to be dirt cheap to make sense
safe dragon
I was under the assumption I would never use that laptop again...
dusty pollen
neither one of my laptops really hold a charge atp tbh
ivory shadow
They said the 13 is going to be starting at $750 or something now right? The 12 has to be less than that to make sense
dusty pollen
one of their chargers is also very very broken
ivory shadow
Sure it's got a touchscreen but one RAM slot and those garbage CPUs?
safe dragon
the 12" will have to compete with the shitty cheap notebooks you buy for kids or your grandma
dusty pollen
that's so pricey... for that price, most $400ish laptops are actually fairly upgradeable and you have some money left over to replace HDDs with SSDs and upgrade RAM etc
sonic mirage
I suspect with how they were talking about "just getting started" with the 16" to that they mean it's refresh isn't super imminent
safe dragon
"don't expect a new mainboard till 2027"
dusty pollen
my first ever laptop was £300 back in 2012 and had a socketed cpu
sonic mirage
When did the original 16" launch?
safe dragon
a year ago
crystal wren
New 16 mainboard: RISC V!
safe dragon
wow!
also with soldered ram!
am I going to edit photos on a 13 inch laptop...
I guess I currently edit photos on a 10" ipad
pliant snow
either that or you sucumb to the old linux world of just getting a thinkpad
edit photos with a nipple
sonic mirage
They'll probably just wait until later this year to refresh the 16". They still only have so much factory space at the end of the day. Maybe they're trying to offset the 13 and 16 by a half year or so
safe dragon
I kinda wanted to have the laptop before the summer though...
ivory shadow
what is even the point if it doesn't have the nub or the build quality
safe dragon
nothing
lethal walrus
oh
ivory shadow
Yeah their website has been dead since the thing started
safe dragon
oh I was actually on it just fine a minute ago
ivory shadow
You got lucky then lol
rain apex
Why do they have to glue the ram isn't that the whole point
safe dragon
and now I'm in a 50 minute queue damn
pliant snow
I don't think the RAM is glued I think it's on the chip
ivory shadow
Because AMD designed a CPU that requires soldered RAM
safe dragon
cause amd doesn't produce the chip in any way to make that possible
I'm honestly surprised the 13" ryzen AI chips do have separate ram
ivory shadow
I will give a little flak to Framework for chosing to use a CPU with that, but 99% of the flak goes to AMD for designing a chip like that
pliant snow
gonna be awkward when they're still going to be supporting those platforms even when the AI hype dies off in 12 months
safe dragon
bold assumption AI marketing isn't gonna try to keep this going till the sun explodes
pliant snow
Doesn't HP have some new line of highly repairable laptops?
safe dragon
HP?
pliant snow
Which is like, sticking your head in a lion's mouth, but..
sonic mirage
If they can sell these by the truckload to AI folks to build farms out of due to them being SFF, then they're kind of just plug-n-play AMD AI chip boxes
Having that 10" rack of 4+ of them on stage kind of shows that's probably what they're actually going for
safe dragon
it could be useful for something
on premises copilot style autocompletion would genuinely be nice
sonic mirage
Mid-tier gaming for $1000 is neat, but if you can't upgrade the GPU then it can't really be a gaming PC. Pretty sure there's not going to be a PCIe x16 slot in there
safe dragon
the mini-pc is just very strange for framework
framework announcing a pc that is less modular than a normal pc
pliant snow
Yeah
crystal wren
The mini PC is absolutely to combat the M4 Mac Minis.
pliant snow
Oh yeah, and they even said as much
and tbh, it's not a bad business model
It's just odd coming from them
safe dragon
they're in for some incredibly tough competition for the M4 mac minis
sonic mirage
I missed that you can swap the front IO on it
pliant snow
There are people who reject it just because it's Apple/a Mac, so if they can get that market, I think there is one
sonic mirage
Watching LTTs video on it now
safe dragon
they did mention it but I don't remember them even showing the front IO while saying it
ivory shadow
DId they even mention that? I kind of tuned out while they were busy worshiping AMD
safe dragon
why do they sell those in colors anyway
pliant snow
for people like me who have gaudy tastes
safe dragon
does anyone want a regular looking laptop and then suddenly some extremely bright clashing color module
oh, I see
ivory shadow
If I was setting one up for a parent I'd use a bright red one for the charging port
sonic mirage
Well you can match your translucent bezel with translucent swappable IO now
pliant snow
if they sold me a transparent plastic laptop you bet i'd get one
ivory shadow
Since not all of the ports charge equally iirc
crystal wren
I know they're not all the same speed on the AMD boards...
pliant snow
on the AMD boards there's some bandwidth variations yeah
safe dragon
but hey the new 13" supports 4 external monitors
you won't even be able to plug in a mouse anymore but hey
ivory shadow
So use a dock + 3 dp/hdmi connectors
safe dragon
it is kinda cool
pliant snow
speaking of which, I think my framework HDMI card has crapped out
I haven't gotten it to work in a while..
safe dragon
uh oh
sonic mirage
Ok so the desktop has a PCIe x4 at least, but no x16 for future GPU upgrades
crystal wren
Thunderbolt for external GPU though, I guess?
sonic mirage
Yeah I guess you could dock a GPU to use with it. For now it's probably 4060/4070 ish in perf based on die size
sonic mirage
Yeah I guess the fast memory hopefully pushes it closer to 4070, which should be good for 1080p gaming for awhile, at least
crystal wren
I mean it's more for running LLMs, being able to dedicate... I think 96GB of it to the graphics, but for most people...
pliant snow
Just get rid of these pesky CPUs and run the OS off the GPU
sonic mirage
Yeah I think 80%+ will just be doing AI with it. Hopefully this will fund Framework doing more mainstream things in the future. Gaming handheld?
pliant snow
A gaming heldheld would be a big mistake for them tbh
I imagine they'd looked into making an illfated phone tho
and then decided against it lol
crystal wren
Yeah I think 80%+ will just be doing AI with it. Hopefully this will fund Framew...
You know, when you look at it that way... yeah, take all that money from the AI people to fund the good stuff.
safe dragon
the good stuff... like a key
sonic mirage
To oversimplify the engineering that happened, they basically just wrapped a SFF around this AI chip to hopefully make some decent margins
safe dragon
all to funnel into a new 16" mainboard I'm sure 
time to spend another month reconsidering my laptop options
crystal wren
It's been nearly 2 years since the 16 came out...
sonic mirage
They have a 16" AMD board right now, is that not what you're looking for?
safe dragon
well yeah but it's an old chipset
much like a normal pc I would prefer not to buy an older generation cpu when new ones have released
especially not right now when laptop cpu power efficiency has been improving drastically
I'm not sure why they couldn't have just given the 16" like... the exact same chip
crystal wren
The Framework 13 came out in 2021 with 11th gen Intel...
And in 2022, they started shipping the 12th gen boards, apparently? That does make the timeline for the 16 kinda concerning.
sonic mirage
I recall the 16" having some harsher reviews than the recent 13s, so I'm not surprised they're taking longer on it. The second gen 13 had a decent number of tweaks due to feedback, so they're probably working on those. Also they probably want to stagger new mainboard rollouts anyways
safe dragon
but this complicates my decisions
I can go 13", I can give up and just get the current 16" one... I can just go with a completely different laptop
sonic mirage
Easy, just get new 13" + portable monitor
safe dragon
pack a monitor with me every trip
sonic mirage
Remember the 13" has the hi-dpi screen option now
Maybe they're working on a hi-dpi for the 16"
crystal wren
Honestly, I would consider just going for the 16. The flak they would get for abandoning it completely would be... ridiculous. It would mean a decent chunk to upgrade it to the new board when it comes out, but that board would also be a pretty damn decent system on its own if you wanted a, I dunno... mini... server?...
safe dragon
I don't have good enough eyes to appreciate hi-dpi very much
sonic mirage
Might need it to compete better with Macbooks
You can also just sell the 16 mainboard on their marketplace if you were to upgrade
safe dragon
I went in with the assumption from the get go that the framework marketplace thing is an american thing and not available in my country
cause that's usually how it goes
crystal wren
Yeah, I wasn't aware you could sell your old stuff on there... maybe it isn't in the UK either?
safe dragon
maybe I'm wrong and it's available here too but I can't exactly load the website right now
pliant snow
There's used stuff on the marketplace?
I thought that was just what they called their store page
crystal wren
Not that I've seen bar the "factory seconds".
safe dragon
I assumed that was what voltaek meant
sonic mirage
I was under the impression you could resell your parts on their marketplace, maybe I'm wrong?
ivory shadow
They have a forum page for selling stuff
But I don't think it's on their store itself
ivory shadow
immediately expensive
safe dragon
it's ok the 16" is discontinued clearly so it's the same thing!
crystal wren
I'm still happy with my factory seconds 13 route into the whole thing.
crystal wren
Yeah, they had UK layouts when I got mine.
sonic mirage
They must have made sooo many extra German ones, those have been listed for years
safe dragon
riveting
can't believe they're shipping April
wow we have been lied to
the 13" laptop is actually a 13.5" laptop
sonic mirage
it's free real estate
safe dragon
Now with Wi-Fi 7 through AMD's RZ717 wireless module, supporting 6 GHz networks with 160 MHz channel width. Works out of the box on Linux.
While I know what they mean I would like to think they're actually implying that it doesn't work on windows
sonic mirage
Windows don't even work on Windows these days, so fair
dusty pollen
I remember back when I had the brain capacity to be interested in hardware stuff...
safe dragon
what happened
children?
imma measure my work laptop screen. I think it's a 13" but I'm praying it's less than that and 13" is bigger than I think
dusty pollen
uni initially, then just mental health madness
then just realised I couldn't care less about hardware tbh lots of memorising specs
safe dragon
I'm also less into it than I used to be but rn cause of the laptop I'm into it a bit more again
crystal wren
Yeah, for hardware, I get back into it for a period of a few months before I need an upgrade, and them I'm right back out again.
sonic mirage
Well you just have to get the higher-res one, then, and you'll end up with more pixels still
safe dragon
more pixels sure but not more screen real estate cause I'd just have to use display scaling to be able to see comfortably
dusty pollen
Yeah, for hardware, I get back into it for a period of a few months before I nee...
for me it's kind of the opposite, every time I need an upgrade I remember how much I don't want to be dealing with hardware and then I just don't upgrade
which is why instead of having one usable pc I have a small collection of potatoes
safe dragon
my old 4K display work laptop has made me a devout hater of high resolution displays
crystal wren
for me it's kind of the opposite, every time I need an upgrade I remember how mu...
My recent, most adventurous hardware thing is not having any thermal compound on my CPU.
-# technically, at least
safe dragon
oh that's exciting
dusty pollen
see by the time you have gotten under the heatsink you've gone too far, turn back now
safe dragon
oh I thought you just forgot to apply thermal paste
dusty pollen
the number of people who seem to think thermal paste is conductive is concerning
crystal wren
Meanwhile this is conductive!
dusty pollen
I wonder if that specifically makes any difference
ivory shadow
Not all thermal paste is electrically insulating.
sonic mirage
Some thermal pastes are mildly conductive due to having literal metal bits in them
Then there's obviously liquid metal
rain apex
Putting new thermal paste on framework is scary to me
ivory shadow
However, thermal paste is very thermally conductive so if they're only using the word conductive they are Technically Correct.
rain apex
The cpu is just exposed...
ivory shadow
And as we all know, technically correct is the best kind of correct.
safe dragon
so my real dream laptop actually has the display magically hover into the sky at the proper height so I don't have assume the seating position of a shrimp to use it
rotund violet
I've heard of people incorrectly using liquid metal as thermal paste.
dusty pollen
I assume the reason thermal paste isn't (usually, inherently) electrically conductive is the risk of getting it on the motherboard and causing shorts as well as it just not being necessary
rotund violet
Say bye-bye to your fancy new CPU.
rain apex
I thought only specific laptops where u can never access the CPU can do that
dusty pollen
so my real dream laptop actually has the display magically hover into the sky at...
I just saw a video of someone designing a laptop with a height-adjustable monitor lmao, I believe they even made all the 3d print files open source
rotund violet
Of course, more often it's people using liquid metal for its legitimate purpose (delidding) but having a tiny bit of it leak out, and well, that's all it takes.
safe dragon
I just saw a video of someone designing a laptop with a height-adjustable monito...
excellent
dusty pollen
usecase was he's 6'5" and has back pain
safe dragon
my solution so far has been to stack my laptop on a big heap of thick books and then using it with a keyboard and mouse
dusty pollen
they frankensteined it using camera monitor mounts and selfie sticks lmao but they do have full instructions
safe dragon
and it made a nice video
ivory shadow
It's not a ten million dollar idea until you make it fit into a laptop form factor and also be reliable and understandable by an average user
dusty pollen
it is in laptop form factor! the rest is dubious though lmao
they chose not to patent it though so I give them kudos on that
rotund violet
understandable by an average user
If average really means "average" then that's more like a ten billion dollar idea. It's a pipe dream.
I think there's some sort of rule that the easier you make a product to use, the stupider the users will get.
fleet wren
re: pc adventures, I tore apart a GPU to install a waterblock last year and that was by far the scariest thing I did in the entire process, which is saying something when the rest involved dealing with liquid
safe dragon
I'd cry and collapse on the floor
fleet wren
same, if I did something wrong I'd have myself a shiny new $1000 paperweight
crystal wren
I just can't bring myself to do liquid...
pliant snow
liquid cooling is a sign of man's hubris
rain apex
So is ur gpu coool now
I was worried that my PC would be loud but it's a lot quieter than the humidifier and AC fans lol
fleet wren
yea, never goes above 60C even at 100% util
is it necessary? no. I would not recommend water cooling if you wanted utility and practicality
but dang it looks cool
crystal wren
That's what would make me want to the most, honestly. So many nicer looking cases when I don't need to worry about really good airflow.
fleet wren
pls ignore the wires, if you mention the wires I'll cry irl
rain apex
Water cooling so that DH can have detergent bottle case
crystal wren
Lian Li though, nice!
rain apex
propane stove case is my favorite
rain apex
pls ignore the wires, if you mention the wires I'll cry irl
Water pump 
crystal wren
Speaking of cables, what bugs me most about this case...
Two PCIE power cables when one would otherwise suffice? Yes. PSU is too damn high up for the cable to reach both, so I need two.
fleet wren
that seems way too short
crystal wren
It's one of those super uncommon cases with a top mounted PSU, and since that's not common nowadays, PSU cables just aren't by default built for that length of a run, sadly.
cinder karma
Just do some soldering
sonic mirage
There's always CableMod
rotund violet
pls ignore the wires, if you mention the wires I'll cry irl
Why is your reservoir almost empty?
fleet wren
Bad planning, I bought too little of the concentrated coolant and adding any more water would dilute it below its effectiveness
I could probably buy more, but paying $30 shipping for a $10 bottle is not economical, and I don't think there's any adverse effects at that water level
rotund violet
I suppose not, though you'll eventually have to refill it anyway as it evaporates, so it's paying $30 now or paying $30 then.
The one lesson I've learned with loops is "always buy more than you think you need" whether it's tubing, fittings, coolant, whatever.
fleet wren
yeah definitely, I had a meter of spare tubes to anticipate tubing mishaps
I'll do a refill when it visibly drops to 20% or etc
rotund violet
I went through something like 6m of hard tubing to do less than 2m of actual run. But that was my first time with it.
pliant snow
fans on the bottom of the case also make me fear of something falling in
sonic mirage
Just slap some fan grills on them
cinder karma
Update: caching 🫠
rotund violet
fans on the bottom of the case also make me fear of something falling in
Rad fans don't really run fast enough for that to be an issue. In fact I have to set a minimum speed to make them run at all a lot of the time.
Even at max speed though, you could stick your finger in the blades and not feel anything. If something fell in then that fan would just... stop.
What's weirder to me is those side fans.
fleet wren
those are extra intakes, mainly to maintain positive pressure and keep dust out
6 fans in vs 3 fans out (I put in the last exhaust fan above the reservoir after taking the pic)
rotund violet
Yeah, just unusual for those to be on the side and not in front.
supple ether
SPAs with non-link links that cannot be opened in new tabs are a cardinal sin. seriously how hard is it to just us an <a>???
it's like a bunch of people just completely forgot the foundations of web design
rotund violet
Or never knew the foundations in the first place and are coming from something like mobile dev.
(or, alternatively, spent any time in the old ASP.NET world with its godawful LinkButton)
supple ether
Or never knew the foundations in the first place and are coming from something l...
you know I only realized recently that there's a LOT of webdevs who only know how to use angular/react. it's honestly kind of depressing.
you should be able to make a fully functional website with just html and css before even touching JS. with the exception of actual web applications, JS should never be required for a web page. you can do almost everything for the vast majority of pages using only the clever application of forms and css.
cinder karma
I don't know how to use react 
supple ether
I know how to use angular but I rarely use it. never used react
cinder karma
Relatedly I'm also not in webdev
sand frost
my fiance made our wedding website in just html and css tho I'm pretty sure
I leave the websites to him whenever possible
classic math prof style websites
supple ether
those are banger though
rain apex
do u yearn for bootstrap and jquery days
pliant snow
no one does
supple ether
I still use bootstrap from time to time, but no way in hell am I ever using jquery again if I can avoid it
pliant snow
I was not really involved in the jquery days, I just remember dipping into web development and finding it to be a crazy system
supple ether
Things are getting better
Back then, websites were shitty because the tools were lacking and browser cross compat was wildly inconsistent.
Nowadays, websites suck because it's faster (and therefore cheaper) to make shitty websites.
Why do things the right way when it takes half the time to do things the easy way
red crest
why use react when you can use svelte instead
(the answer is unfortunately "no one is hiring for svelte")
supple ether
Why use spas at all
red crest
well, svelte isn't limited to just creating SPAs
red crest
svelte on its own is very geared for it but it is possible, but sveltekit also opens it up a lot more too
supple ether
Single Page App, ie. Fat client websites that use js for literally everything
red crest
you can always just make other pages that do their own thing
supple ether
As opposed to more classical mpas, or Multi Page Apps
supple ether
you can always just make other pages that do their own thing
Huh, maybe I'll fiddle with it a bit some time
I learned how to use php composer recently, which was nice
red crest
i find it very nice to use which is why it's what I went with for my docs/tutorials site
cinder karma
I enjoy my description of spa more
supple ether
So do I
rotund violet
You can make SPAs that are compatible with ordinary URL routing; the newer SSGs like mkdocs do it.
Honestly there isn't that strong a connection between building a single-page app and relying on JS for everything. Obviously the former does require JS but it's only a tiny amount. JS-heavy websites are usually using it either for some MV-* architecture, or to create fancy effects, or do other fancy things like charts.
dusty pollen
classic math prof style websites <:SDVpufferthumbsup:604817082064044062>
I love math prof style websites though
dusty pollen
do u yearn for bootstrap and jquery days
are the jquery days over now? has the beast been slain?
safe dragon
depends on your perspective
it's still used on a very significant number of websites
dusty pollen
I will say, I did prefer jquery style selectors to the alternatives
safe dragon
my old job's backoffice platform is still rocking jquery 1.2 to this day
do I get a framework 13
cyan shadow
I really want to get a framework laptop once my current laptop reaches an age at which I no longer feel bad about getting a new one
A colleague of mine in my masters uses one, I should ask her if she likes it
safe dragon
considering mine is not too far away from being old enough to join discord I think I can get a new one
everyone I've spoken to has been positive about framework
cyan shadow
the only "problem" with them that I've heard from anyone aside from them being too expensive for students is that they're "chubby"
(disclaimer: the person who complained about this is currently a macbook user)
dusty pollen
one hell of a disclaimer
safe dragon
compared to a MacBook, sure yes
pliant snow
Apparently the popular Material Theme plugin for VSCode was taken down as it had obfuscated malicious code...
dusty pollen
if we can't trust random plugins, who CAN we trust?
cyan shadow
one hell of a disclaimer
at least he likes the newly announced framework 12, so there's that
sonic mirage
I set my non-technical parents up with a 13 plus a thunderbolt dock and I haven't heard any issues about it, and they use it daily for all their business stuff
That was mid-2023, pretty sure
sand frost
the only "problem" with them that I've heard from anyone aside from them being t...
Like rounded corners, or too heavy or what???
I googled a picture and they look a lot like Macs tbh
sand frost
I love math prof style websites though
This was not an ironic thumbs up!! I agree!!
pliant snow
They're thiccer, and not a completely flat, symmetic piece
sonic mirage
at least he likes the newly announced framework 12, so there's that
If they think the 13 is chubby then how do they like the 12? It looks almost twice as thick lol
pliant snow
have they given specs on how large they are?
sonic mirage
No but it's a 2-in-1 so it's just inherently beefier since the screen needs thickness to survive
cyan shadow
Like rounded corners, or too heavy or what???
thicc
cyan shadow
If they think the 13 is chubby then how do they like the 12? It looks almost twi...
I dunno, he thought it looked a bit more modern, for some reason
I don't really understand the reasoning but he also said he's just being fussy so
worn remnant
i appreciate a computer with the courage to be thicc
cyan shadow
My laptop is reasonably chunky for a modern machine
It's a bit heavy, but that's more to do with me being smol than a failing on the part of the laptop
safe dragon
I think we have reached the end of companies just trying to make electronics thinner and thinner at this point
cyan shadow
yep
besides, with the swappable components on the framework it doesn't make sense for it to be super slim, anyway
how do you fit an ethernet port on something as thin as a macbook air, for one
safe dragon
the framework ethernet port is a funky one
worn remnant
how do you fit an ethernet port on something as thin as a macbook air, for one
if my memory serves from the original macbook air launch, famously you do not
sonic mirage
My 2011 MacBook Pro has a full size ethernet port, but it's not exactly "thin"
It also has FireWire, though, so there's that. And old MagSafe, before they killed it and then brought it back, but different
dusty pollen
i appreciate a computer with the courage to be thicc
all those movies where the computer nerds have these sleek, futuristic computers, when all we really want is the old chunky thinkpads
sonic mirage
There's a point where I'm more concerned with bending the thing in half than I am pleased with how thin it is
safe dragon
all the fancy laptops are shoved aside as some guy shows up with a ThinkPad and a full IBM Model M keyboard he has carefully maintained all this time
dusty pollen
the real cs nerd legend
worn remnant
i am pondering the new frameworks. the 12 and 13 both look nice for slightly different reasons
my current laptop situation is sort of a dumpster fire so i probably need to clean house and upgrade anyway
dusty pollen
all the fancy laptops are shoved aside as some guy shows up with a ThinkPad and ...
everyone is oooing and aahhing until some woman shows up with a working-condition commodore 64
safe dragon
everyone is oooing and aahhing until some woman shows up with a working-conditio...
the ideal hacking workstation
dusty pollen
speaking of hacking, I wonder if anyone’s tried to run stardew on kali yet
are people still trying to use kali as their daily driver because it will make them into a hacker?
cyan shadow
Kali????
dusty pollen
kali linux
cyan shadow
Who decided to name a linux distro after a goddess of destruction 😭
dusty pollen
ngl that’s a decent name for it
it’s a penetration testing distro not intended for daily use
cyan shadow
it sounds like it's going to nuke whatever machine you install it on
dusty pollen
but some script kids have taken it to mean “distro that will make me a hacker” lmao
cyan shadow
because that's what I'd expect from something with that name lmao
dusty pollen
it sounds like it's going to nuke whatever machine you install it on
you aren’t supposed to directly install it on computers at all only on VMs or using portable installation media like USB sticks
it’s notoriously unstable when used as a regular distro, which is what makes it so funny when people do
worn remnant
i (mostly) enjoy using linux but i would also broadly not call any distro "intended for daily use" (i'm allowed to say this because i do use them daily /lh)
cyan shadow
it’s notoriously unstable when used as a regular distro, which is what makes it ...
maybe it is an apt name, then 
dusty pollen
i (mostly) enjoy using linux but i would also broadly not call any distro "inten...
yeah, but at least some of them theoretically are supposed to work for daily use but then again I’m with you on the side of not recommending them for people who don’t like to tinker
cyan shadow
I'm just remembering the hotch potch belief system I was raised with and having a good chuckle at the notion of a destructive linux distro
dusty pollen
it took me like three days to update my arch install recently after I haven’t touched that laptop for a year
btw, do any of you have ipads and want the modular script I wrote to put my favourite webcomics on my homescreen as widgets using scriptable?
crystal wren
...iPad? Widgets? Scriptable? 
dusty pollen
I just remembered it because I just saw xkcd updated
the best way to share it is probably a gist on github, right?
crystal wren
(Hi Alab!)
(So you're getting a too-thicc-for-a-Mac-user Framework 13 and installing Kali Linux on it, right? )
dusty pollen
nah, you should hackintosh it
pliant snow
I'm convinced the number of people using kali linux and are actually using it for actual purposes are zero
It's just people installing it because they think it's cool
cyan shadow
(So you're getting a too-thicc-for-a-Mac-user Framework 13 and installing Kali L...
nah 
he's going to get one anyway, and he's already looking at linux distros
he realised framework offers clear components and got all excited so any reservations about the thiccness are out the window now
crystal wren
Oh, damn!
cinder karma
Should I ask for git-svn, I wonder for the 9th time
cyan shadow
Oh, damn!
I'm also looking at linux distros, for that matter
I'm thinking of dual-booting from an external SSD, just to see if I like it
pliant snow
yo, no one told me they were making transparent purple expansion cards
crystal wren
And the bezels again!
cyan shadow
they have transparent bezels and keyboards, too
worn remnant
atomic purple is back, baby
cyan shadow
and they're coming out with a desktop
crystal wren
I'm _also_ looking at linux distros, for that matter
So we'll be convincing you to use Arch, got it.
cyan shadow
So we'll be convincing you to use Arch, got it.
Yes.
dusty pollen
I'm thinking of dual-booting from an external SSD, just to see if I like it
both my linux laptops are dual-boot with windows from the same drive! I don’t necessarily recommend it, and one of them seems to believe it has 5 copies of windows installed which I’m pretty sure isn’t true, but it’s possible
dusty pollen
So we'll be convincing you to use Arch, got it.
arch: the distro for when you want all your problems to be your own damn fault
cyan shadow
both my linux laptops are dual-boot with windows from the same drive! I don’t ne...
I don't wanna partition my existing drive, that's why I decided to do the thing from an external drive
although the drives are expensive, so I might have to:
A. Wait for mediamarkt to grant me some sort of easter/carnaval sale
B. Do all this after I get a job
worn remnant
arch: the distro for when you want all your problems to be your own damn fault
gentoo: all your problems are your fault, and it took five hours of compiling to discover
dusty pollen
valid. Thanks to these and my desktop, I am now all too aware of how much windows struggles with low disk space
dusty pollen
gentoo: all your problems are your fault, and it took five hours of compiling to...
gentoo: you’re a masochist but make it nerdy