programmers-off-topic

[crystal wren]

If I make it generate separate PDBs, it works. Embed them again, it fails.

[safe dragon]

well shouldn't want embedded pdbs then

easy

[crystal wren]

Sadly: https://github.com/dotnet/runtime/issues/39987

Wait a minute...

[safe dragon]

ah it's fixed gratz

just switch to .NET 7

👍

[cinder karma]

Yup

[dusty pollen]

so, slight problem with that...

[cinder karma]

Breaks linux max debug info

I would set it to nonembedded if debug, embedded if release

Tbh

[crystal wren]

That's exactly the change I made!

[dusty pollen]

tbh I have no idea what any of this discussion means and have too much of a headache to look it up this time so imagine me just blankly nodding along

[safe dragon]

time to learn about pdbs

[dusty pollen]

absolutely not time for that

time to force myself to finish my very late lunch, drink some water, play half a balatro run and then take a nap

[ivory shadow]

Crumble can learn about pdbs for us and report back

[safe dragon]

I'm good 🙏

[dusty pollen]

I second that idea

[safe dragon]

I don't

[devout vault]

Yeah, that’s super silly, I don’t know anyone who be crazy enough for that. whistles innocently

https://github.com/spacechase0/XML-Parser

(C++. I did it for fun, and because I didn’t like the API of any of the other libraries I saw at the time. 😛 This was ages ago though. I can’t recall if I ever got around to implanting comment support or not…)

Also wrote a zip file reader/writer around the same time, it’s on github too. Figuring out how from the spec was ‘fun’… Though not as much ‘fun’ as when I was trying to figure out MS-ADPCM (?) for reading XNA wavebanks from c++ based on a few vague specs on normal ADPCM that differed slightly from whatever XNA does. I never fully figured that out, even after referencing monogame. I ended up with sounds that you could recognize which one was what, but very clearly sounded corrupted. 😛

[dusty pollen]

I'd 100% do that for fun tbh I just wouldn't trust myself to implement all the little niche cases to use in an actual professional context

[devout vault]

Yeah, that’s fair. It was very much for hobby purposes and probably inefficient.

I imagine most people wouldn’t for work purposes, aside from places ripe with NIH tendencies

[dusty pollen]

also it sounds like you just need a rebrand. "Creepy Corrupted Game Sound Maker", done

my teachers used to laugh about me implementing everything from scratch and I couldn't figure out how to explain to them that I knew it wasn't the right thing to do professionally but for learning it was good haha

[ivory shadow]

I haven't written my own XML parsing library but I have sure implemented other things that are silly to do yourself.

[pliant snow]

I've always been tempted to do a compression algorithm project, just to see how it is

The closest I've done is a markdown parser and a .ips patching script

[ivory shadow]

I had a pretty crazy custom math library at one point. It accepted number literals in way too many formats, including roman numerals

[dusty pollen]

I started to build some wild axiom-based number handling thing as a way of avoiding revising for my maths exams at uni and then got bored and realised it made no sense lmao

[devout vault]

Hehe, yeah. For me it was more about it being fun. I remember for an assignment in comp org I or II we got an assignment for I think emulating mips? The teacher gave us a bunch of base code that we could start with, and some of friends thought I was crazy for not using it and just doing it from scratch. I got full points on the assignment though. 😛 (Also didn’t take the full time until it was due to make - for all I know it would have taken me longer to figure out the base code and do it I. There)

[devout vault]

Yeah, compression is really intriguing to me, though I’ve never gotten deep into it. (I used zlib I think for my zip file parser)

[dusty pollen]

the only time I used the ridiculous base code we were given for assignments is when one of my lecturers built a full emacs clone just for us to change a teeny tiny bit to do with jumping to a mark

I assume he was bored, he called it ewoks

[devout vault]

I really enjoyed comp org I and II, had a lot of fun with the mips stuff in particular. I almost started to make a Tetris game in it after the class, but I couldn’t find an emulator with all the features I needed in the same one. (Each would only have some of the features.)

Of course, I could’ve made my own emulator, but that didn’t seem as interesting by then 😛

[dusty pollen]

oh I had to look it up, that's one of those courses I didn't take because I did joint maths and CS so anything that wasn't "pure" maths or "pure" CS got cut out

it looked like an interesting course but everyone who took it hated it

[cinder karma]

Number of times I've used ilspy for work ++

[pliant snow]

The only compression stuff I did was some basic run-length encoding, but that's it. One of these days I should study it more

[devout vault]

Ah. I think some people who did CS at my college ended up dual majoring in math because of the huge overlap - even without dual majoring you got an automatic math minor from everything required for CS.

To be fair my college wasn’t known for being one of the best CS programs or anything, I just went there so I could stay near my parents. I think the college in a town two hours away was known for better CS than ours.

I was kinda a standout though at least at my college since I had been programming for so long before I went. In the campus programming contest I beat the faculty team of three in a team by myself in the first year. 😛 Though that was before they split things into lower and upper divisions (easier vs harder), though even after that I often got first place (though a couple times the faculty team did beat me, they weren’t officially in the rankings)

However… I got absolutely crushed at the regional programming contests. 😛 I think I managed to solve one problem, which to be fair was more than my colleges teams normally managed

[cinder karma]

Also like I wasn't aware vscode had an ilspy plugin

[pliant snow]

Being known for your CS program is just slang for "has a lot of research"

[devout vault]

It was actually the second semester in my first year I won though - the first semester I was there the contest machines had some weird standard library issues where anything using std string would crash, and they didn’t figure out that was why until near the end so I didn’t have time to switch languages

[devout vault]

That makes sense. Though to be fair, I did get crushed by the teams from other schools in the regional contests. Though also to be fair, a lot of those schools apparently had tracks for competitive programming for these things and you had to compete to go to regionals, while for my school it was more that they tried to convince the people who did well at the college contests to go to regional, and then usually find a few other volunteers to fill out the two teams they sent.

I think shortly after I dropped out my school started having our regional teams do lower division instead of upper division. More problems get solved now from what I’ve heard, but that’s kinda expected since lower division is easier

[ivory shadow]

Actually come to think about it, some of my overpowered math stuff made it into my Discord bot for dice rolling. It can do stupid stuff like

[devout vault]

Sin in dice roller is pretty wacky, not sure I understand what the k parts mean though

[pliant snow]

All good dice rollers have a little sin 🚬

[ivory shadow]

k in this case meaning "keep", and my specific notation uses an upper-case K for "keep high" and lower-case means "keep low". So in the first one, it keeps the 3 highest rolls and in the second one it keeps the 1 lowest roll.

Honestly I made the thing very fancy only for 99 percent of rolls people make with it to just be like "1d20 + 8" or something lol

[devout vault]

(I know I said I wouldn’t be around much in making mods general a couple days ago, but I got really sick and am bored out of my mind lying in bed. 😛 )

[ivory shadow]

[devout vault]

Ah, that makes sense

[strange copper]

is the keep notation for things like rolling up your D&D stats where it's 4d6 drop the lowest?

[sand frost]

hope you feel better soon but I guess it's our gain while you're sick!

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, precisely.

[sand frost]

i think the funnest part of the dice is the colors

but I'm no dnd player

[ivory shadow]

I put so much work into my dice drawing code to make nice colors lol

[devout vault]

I once had a DM who let us do something like 5d6 drop 2, 7 times and drop the lowest score

[strange copper]

you'd make a perfect dnd player. finding more dice in fun colors is a common hobby lol

[sand frost]

I think I'd be a better dice collector

[cinder karma]

We should do dnd

[strange copper]

for a while i collected more dice than i played dnd

[cinder karma]

In about five years

[devout vault]

I don’t have tons of dice, I had three sets I really liked before I moved but I lost them. They may just be in a box I still haven’t unboxed (over a year later…), but I thought they were in ones I already checked

[sand frost]

some deadline in mind for 5 years?

[devout vault]

If y’all do feel free to invite me!

[ivory shadow]

Each die gets a random color gradient, within set ranges. I think it looks pretty decent. And different sided die can have different images, or else just fallback to rendering with a font.

And people can customize how the dice are rendered for them specifically with a command.

[rain apex]

D i c e

[sand frost]

fancy gradients is my pick

[dusty pollen]

my uni doesn't do majors/minors, you apply for a specific course and that's the course you do until you leave. It was also kind of common for people to have some programming experience, though very few were particularly competent/experienced in it in my experience. My own personal standout moments were things like writing a practical that ran in a tenth of the time of anytime else's, and being the only person in our cohort who didn't need to be told that when unit testing a (basic math calculation) method in a class you can't be doing it by comparing to other methods in that class...

[devout vault]

Now that is fancy. (I was wondering what the fox dice were, didn’t make the connection to the d2s)

[ivory shadow]

Heads or tails. 😄

[sand frost]

i specifically avoided CS classes in undergrad

and look where that got me

writing lots of python and matlab for work, and C# for fun sometimes

[dusty pollen]

maybe this is just me having a one track mind but I feel like you can come up with a super fun balatro-style game with these

[ivory shadow]

An actual artist could make them look prettier I'm sure, but I am happy even so

[devout vault]

I should play balatro more. I almost won my first game (one of the tutorial seeds I think), and haven’t gone back to it yet

[dusty pollen]

you should! once you win one the wins come more and more quickly

I save every seed I won if you want to try one of them for some reason

[devout vault]

Well I haven’t opened a game since November, once I get back to being able to enjoy games again I might. 😅 I’ve been pretty interested in In Stars And Time though, might start with that

[dusty pollen]

I never heard of it before but it looks super cute! I love the art style

[sand frost]

I haven’t played anything in a while, but ive been slowly playing through VMV with my fiance

I think the last time we played was mayyyyyve December?

[devout vault]

Time loop / time travel stuff has always been really interesting to me. I remember really liking Steins Gate partially for that reason. (Though it’s hard to rewatch nowadays since some anime tropes bother me more than they used too, plus a couple particular scenes, and also one entire episode I’d have to skip if I rewatched since (not bad content spoiler, just plot stuff) ||I’ve transitioned since I first saw the show and an episode during the arc of undoing the changes they’ve made, in particular having changed a feminine guy into a woman like the person wanted, is harder to sit through||)

I played through the Steins Gate VN at one point and also the one for Steins Gate 0. Did watch the latter anime too and enjoyed it, I liked some of the anime original scenes in it

[sand frost]

I watched someone play Braid once

It looked very time loopy

[devout vault]

I’ve heard the name of that game but never looked into it. Was that one of the ones that came out when indie games first started getting big? (Like super meat boy, cave story, etc.)

[dusty pollen]

I literally only know about steins gate because it's the first level of anigame 😅 I don't watch much TV/shows

[cinder karma]

I think this is normal for engineers

Very normal for engineerrs

[sand frost]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Braid_(video_game)

[sand frost]

Yeah I just think it’s funny I tried so hard not to learn CS and then learned it anyways

[cinder karma]

I mean but also

[devout vault]

I prefer animated stuff over live action so watch a fair bit of anime since there seems to be more it compared to western stuff (especially fantasy). There are definitely western shows I like too though - currently The Owl House is my favorite, though before that it was the Netflix She-Ra reboot

[dusty pollen]

the only animation I've watched in the past few years is the first half of Delicious in Dungeon, which was pretty good but I never went back to

https://tenor.com/view/dungeon-meshi-delicious-in-dungeon-marcille-donato-senshi-dungeon-meshi-dungeon-meshi-senshi-gif-15862516973591178775

[sand frost]

My spreadsheet of all movies I’ve ever watched says I like animated movies

But this is probably because I like “kids” movies, which are often animated

[devout vault]

I have a friend who studies nuclear engineering and when I realized a lot of scientists end up doing some programming I ended up asking her if she did and sure enough, she does. 😅 I was baffled when she said she only uses notepad for editing her programs though

[sand frost]

I mean I use sublime mostly for python

[devout vault]

Yeah, I really enjoyed that show. Still trying to decide if want to wait for the next season or just catch up through the manga

[sand frost]

Which is like notepad with colors

[devout vault]

Well sure, but the syntax highlighting is what makes that understandable. Notepad is just all one color 😭

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, Braid was a very early indie success.

[sand frost]

I guess I just thought colors were pretty

I probably do use them subconsciously

[cinder karma]

(I don't have my syntax highlight right at work)

[devout vault]

Honestly, if I could only have one ‘extra’ feature in an IDE, it would probably be syntax highlighting, even over compiler integration or error highlighting. I can just get those when compiling in the console, and while sure it wouldn’t be as streamlined, I feel like easier to read code with syntax highlighting helps me more

[sand frost]

I run all my python code over command line

I actually like the autocomplete for words best

The syntax highlighting is for funzies

[devout vault]

Yeah, ‘kids’ shows can often be good. Not all of them of course (cocomelon cough), but I hear even stuff like Bluey is pretty good

[devout vault]

My condolences, RIP you

[ivory shadow]

Some languages I can read just fine without syntax highlighting. Some become alien hieroglyphics.

[sand frost]

I don’t watch a lot of kids TV but I watch a lot of “family friendly” type shows

Ok, maybe the key factor is that I mostly just watch bake-off

[devout vault]

Ah, yeah, I guess that is a bit of a difference

[sand frost]

But I also will watch the occasional drama or other “contest but low drama” type

Like I watched some of “is it cake”

[dusty pollen]

I prefer all languages with syntax highlighting, and if someone creates syntax highlighting for English will gladly accept that too

[devout vault]

What, you don’t think you would have an easy time with the Whitespace language in notepad? 😛

[sand frost]

And a bit of that one TV show about tiny children running errands in Japan

[ivory shadow]

Esoteric languages don't count, those are designed to be alien hieroglyphics.

[devout vault]

I don’t watch much game show stuff, but I really enjoy Game Changer on Dropout

[dusty pollen]

genuinely can't tell if you're talking about an esolang or making fun of python except for the fact that I'm pretty sure I've heard of that esolang

[ivory shadow]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Whitespace_(programming_language)

[dusty pollen]

awful. I love it

[sand frost]

I haven’t watched any drop out, but I did watch a bunch of Jet Lag Now that you mention other like online platforms

[dusty pollen]

the only language where you should use tabs instead of spaces

[devout vault]

Yeah. heck, I made syntax highlighting for vscode for my weird language like thing I was using for content pack type stuff for mods. (Screenshots somewhere in my past messages)

[ivory shadow]

You should always use tabs instead of spaces for indentation

[dusty pollen]

who hurt you

[ivory shadow]

You, by suggesting otherwise

[dusty pollen]

(/lh)

[ivory shadow]

Also the JavaScript ecosystem in general.

Where some people think indenting with 2 spaces is cool

[devout vault]

There’s a lot of fun stuff on Dropout, I haven’t watched much lately (because depression), but most everything they’re putting out is great. I would love to watch Dimension 20 more if my attention span didnt make the long episodes hard. I did watch all of Fantasy High (the first season) and really enjoyed it

[ivory shadow]

Indenting with 2 spaces is a war crime

[dusty pollen]

in my experience, in the JavaScript ecosystem you're sometimes lucky to get indentation at all

[ivory shadow]

(The war is against my eyes. Please stop the war.)

[dusty pollen]

I take 2 space indentation as an acknowledgement that someone knows their code is too nested and their lines are too long but has decided to do nothing about it

[cinder karma]

Isn't c style two spaces

[devout vault]

Controversial opinion: Tabs for indentation, spaces for alignment. Unfortunately, IDEs don’t tend to like this. Especially weird cases like indenting, aligning the inside of a statement across multiple lines, having a lambda in there which then uses tabs for indentation, and then sometimes more spaces for alignment

[cinder karma]

Let me just start a flamewar

[dusty pollen]

"maybe if we make the indentation smaller--" it is time for a refactor

[ivory shadow]

I do use spaces for alignment.

[cinder karma]

I can manually enable it

And it is supposed to work per my vimrc

[dusty pollen]

I don't use tabs, space for all whitespace for me all the way

[devout vault]

(And to be clear, yes, I’m talking about tabs, then spaces, then tabs, then spaces all in the same line)

Typing on my phone gets so annoying… lately I’ve been somehow been accidentally pressing return while typing a message and it starts a new line in the middle where I didn’t want to.

[cinder karma]

The space in spacecasey is for whitespace

[ivory shadow]

spacecasey implies the existence of tabcasey

[devout vault]

When I first got this iPhone a little over a year ago I was accidentally opening the number or emoji keyboard with the edge of my hand frequently and ending up typing nonsense for a second or two. My previous phone was an iPhone 8, back when they had the bottom section with just the physical home button, so I didn’t have that issue before.

[thin estuary]

TabCore? oh my

[devout vault]

Honestly I liked the physical home button better than how iPhones work now.

[ivory shadow]

I still have my android phone configured to have a row of bottom buttons instead of just using swipe gestures.

I like buttons

[dusty pollen]

same

also I use a swipe keyboard, which is faster than a regular keyboard but the error corrections slow you down almost all the way back haha

[devout vault]

I saw a discussion about this recently in here, but if there were smartphones with physical keyboards like the old phones that slid open, I would totally get one. (Maybe they do still exist, I haven’t looked too hard)

Tactile feedback go brr

[ivory shadow]

Nah, all we get is

1. thinner phones
2. phones with hinges in the middle of their screens

[latent bough]

Who is their target audience for this? Actually though

[leaden marsh]

I vaguely recall there being one more recently, but don't quote me on that

[dusty pollen]

blackberries were peak smartphone design. Joysticks and keyboards need to make a comeback

[devout vault]

And the weird thing smartphones do (or at least iOS) where the ‘hit box’ for keys will change size depending on what they think you will type next annoys me. I feel like it messes with my muscle memory

[latent bough]

Samsung TVs kinda do that too and it's super annoying

They guess what letter you'll do next and fill the 4 surrounding tiles with those letters

and you have to press in any direction twice to make it go away

[devout vault]

I’ve been curious about swipe typing but haven’t bothered learning it.

[leaden marsh]

Add bumpers and you've got a gaming phone

[latent bough]

do not get a samsung TV

[dusty pollen]

Ew I hate everything about that

[thin estuary]

...that's a thing on iOS? i've never noticed

[leaden marsh]

I really like swipe typing

[ivory shadow]

"We can't put bigger batteries in the phone it'd make them thicker." "And this is our 5 millimeter thick camera bump."

[thin estuary]

but i guess i have autocorrect off

[latent bough]

it does this

[devout vault]

Maybe I should look into it! But then I’d have to learn Android, which sounds like effort…

[latent bough]

and it just really kinda sucks IMO

[dusty pollen]

learning curve was pretty small for me, you're literally just swiping the letters you would otherwise be typing. I feel like I make more mistakes now than I did at the beginning haha

[leaden marsh]

I definitely think I make less mistakes

(with swipe)

[devout vault]

Yeah, I didn’t fully realize it until I saw it mentioned online and looked into it, but once I heard it explained so much

[devout vault]

And of course the screen has to go as close to the edges as possible. Even if it means a weird notch. Oh, don’t worry, we can put an unusable amount of screen above it now too, so we can brand it as a “Dynamic Island” to market it as a feature instead

[ivory shadow]

Just make front facing cameras slightly worse and put them beneath the screen

If we need amazing quality that's why the rear camera is so bumpy

I like the things Redmagic has been doing for phone design.

Just a solid rectangle. No bump. No camera cutout. Has an actual fan for active cooling.

[dusty pollen]

people still tell that anecdote about Steve Jobs throwing an iPhone in water to prove it could still be smaller as if it was a good thing

[devout vault]

First thing I found about when searching on google just now. https://gizmodo.com/the-iphones-future-predictive-keyboard-makes-certain-ke-5930577 (From 2012)

[cinder karma]

Understood. Khloe, your next car has a 12 in tablet in it

Oh you don't want one?

Well

[ivory shadow]

Oh, and the redmagic has shoulder buttons. It's gaming oriented.

[cinder karma]

No model comes without one

[ivory shadow]

Jokes on you atra I haven't bought a new vehicle in 20 years.

[dusty pollen]

the car thing is so scary to me

[ivory shadow]

My 1996 truck just refuses to die

[dusty pollen]

why is it accepted by people that they could get locked out of their vehicle by a software update

[devout vault]

The funny thing is, I feel like my rear camera is worse than my old phones. If I get too close to take a picture of something (and sometimes I would need to because of the size) it gets all blurry. My old phone didn’t do that. (Admittedly that could be my case, but cameras now are very different compared to my old iPhone 8 so I’m not sure if they just work like that now)

[dusty pollen]

I feel like new phone cameras store images in higher resolutions and therefore have more megapixels but aren't actually better in any way tbh

[ivory shadow]

I'm quite enjoying the camera on my Pixel 9 Pro

I mean, a lot of the time they aren't better in any way.

We hit the point a while back where you need a physically larger sensor for improvements so instead the pivoted to software enhancement.

[dusty pollen]

my phone cameras felt pretty much the same for the past like 7 years

[devout vault]

Yeah, I’m sorta dreading ever needing to get a car again. I had a 2016 Toyota Yaris, I think shortly before everyone went all in on this stuff. I don’t want a smart car. 😦

I kinda just hate touch screens over physical controls in general though. But especially for cars, for a physical control you could safely change the AC without looking, but with a touchscreen that becomes much harder

[cinder karma]

Yes, and it's surprisingly good imo

[ivory shadow]

Though recently some mad lads in China have started putting absolutely massive sensors on phones.

[rotund violet]

Hot take: all editors should be configured to use CR for newlines... but not LF.

[cinder karma]

(My car is a 2016 crv!)

[ivory shadow]

so, focus
         wants to
                 type like
                          this?```

[dusty pollen]

have you seen the reports about the cybertruck? I just hate the entire concept of replacing tactile controls for something like a vehicle with software, especially since software likes to break sometimes

[ivory shadow]

(I know I did that meme exactly backwards but you can't really emulate CR without LF with just Discord text rendering lol)

[rotund violet]

Exactly. That's much better for argument lists... or something.

[cinder karma]

Just talk to the car

[dusty pollen]

I'm just glad I was right that it was backwards I was doubting myself reading that

[devout vault]

I don’t like a lot of “smart” tech in general. My parents are really into the smart home stuff, and we’re kinda surprised I never was interested doing that since I know tech well and stuff. But like, that’s a big part of why I don’t want it 😅

[ivory shadow]

Way back when, I was a developer on MUD projects so the difference between CR and LF and why they were both important got drilled into me, lol

Along with other ANSI escape code terminal nonsense

[dusty pollen]

the more you know about tech the less you want various types of easily breakable software doing important things

[cinder karma]

I am learning a lot of things right now

[cinder karma]

Did you know you can get gas caps with locks built into them

[safe dragon]

I use the library printer. I ain't letting such a thing into my house

[ivory shadow]

Yep. Gas theft is a problem in some areas.

[rotund violet]

I decided to get a new(er) car despite the 20-year-old still running. Really like the cameras and Android Auto on a lot of the new ones (or Carplay if you're into that).

[ivory shadow]

Oh, my ancient truck does have android auto. I replaced the stereo.

[dusty pollen]

the person supervising my maths project in uni kept telling me how computers do calculations "at the speed of light" and "perfectly accurately" and I was just sitting there like

[devout vault]

Yeah, I know too much about software to be trusting of it. Same reason I would refuse to do brain implants, even if it enabled the fabled “full dive virtual reality” I would really like to experience. (I’m doubtful the just a headset type that is a lot of anime is really possible)

[rotund violet]

Ah, so your ancient truck is not really an ancient truck, it's a renovation project.

[cinder karma]

It's 70% the speed of light!!!

[safe dragon]

well I do my calculations at 4 meters per second

[ivory shadow]

At the speed of light (within a material where light only travles at 50-90% of the speed of light in a vacuum)

[dusty pollen]

I don't trust either silicone valley or the biohacker people so those implants just sound like a nightmare to me haha

[ivory shadow]

I mean, I had to replace the stereo. It died, lol. And at that point if I'm tearing apart the entire dashboard I may as well put something nicer in it

[devout vault]

Probably also helps against even more malicious cases like someone putting sugar in there without you knowing

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, it helps with that too.

[rotund violet]

Sugar in the gas tank is mostly a myth.

[dusty pollen]

if I'm in charge of writing the code I could make it run in under 1Hz, that will show him

[ivory shadow]

Honestly if you really wanna fuck an engine up, pop the hood and pour something funky in the oil

[devout vault]

To be honest I did always wish my car had rear view cameras

[rotund violet]

Yes, could put a solvent in the oil or just drain the oil.

I think Turpentine would pretty much be the end of it.

Oh, or bleach. I think Mythbusters tried that one and the results were pretty spectacular.

[ivory shadow]

Some of the stuff I've seen on the subreddit for auto mechanics...

[cinder karma]

I like to believe most people are not malicious

[rotund violet]

Depends where you live.

[ivory shadow]

Most people are just stupid

[dusty pollen]

myself included

my grandad used to tell my dad "always remember, you are not the only idiot on the road"

[rotund violet]

Criminality actually tends to be concentrated in the "just slightly below average intelligence" area.

[cinder karma]

I'm deliberately changing the topic

So. Programming, right?

[devout vault]

Welp, looks like the anime episode I was waiting for finally got put up on Crunchyroll, might be back later. 😛 (For the curious, it’s the ‘guild receptionist soloing bosses to clock out on time’ one)

[safe dragon]

that one is certainly something

[dusty pollen]

is that the title or a description? genuinely can't tell with anime any more

[devout vault]

Very relatable premise (not that I’ve had to work overtime myself before)

[sand frost]

I got my lab computer much faster than I expected!!

[safe dragon]

it's a light novel adaptation so the title is pretty much a description

[devout vault]

^

[cinder karma]

Lol

[cinder karma]

Twice this week

An atra is almost out the door

[safe dragon]

I have never worked overtime before

unless I count working till 5:30 instead of 5

[rain apex]

They need to move on to mod naming schemes

Better Guild Reception

[devout vault]

It’s probably one of my top anime this season (though a couple, like the one where a dad reincarnates into his daughters favorite game, are higher)

[dusty pollen]

Dungeon Redux

[rain apex]

Ah yeah that one's fun i read some of the mango

[cinder karma]

Try 8pm

[safe dragon]

dad reincarnates as otome villainess is a good one yes...

[rain apex]

I'm enjoying medalist a lot

[safe dragon]

no

[rain apex]

Skating kids

[cinder karma]

I tried to leave at 7pm

[devout vault]

I also like the premise of another one that had an episode today, “Welcome to Japan, Ms. elf”. The show itself is enjoyable, though not amazing, but considering I’ve literally fantasized about that sort of thing before to varying extents (more so the parts about being in a fantasy world while asleep and then being here when awake than the bringing someone back part)… yeah 😛

Anyways, time to go watch Alina try and probably fail to escape overtime again 😛

[dusty pollen]

there was a series of books I read as a teenager about exactly that concept, being in an alternate world in your sleep, and I'm even 75% sure they were originally written in English

[cinder karma]

Did the main character have cancer

And they went to fantasy Italy

[dusty pollen]

don't think so?

though fantasy Italy sounds somewhat correct

[cinder karma]

That's the one I remember readinf!!!!

[safe dragon]

there's also a videogame called catherine where you enter some funky world in your dreams

[dusty pollen]

Stravaganza was the name of the series apparently

[devout vault]

Even with lucid dreaming I haven’t been able to get any sense of continuity from my dreams. If only 😭

[safe dragon]

my dreams are complete nonsense and I forget them within 5 minutes of waking up

[dusty pollen]

Stravaganza was cute, it's about a few teenagers being able to use certain objects to go into another world/universe in their sleep iirc

[devout vault]

I actually read a book recently about it based on something from r/WritingPrompts. Ended up having themes about mental health.

[heavy dagger]

https://reddit.com/r/WritingPrompts.

[dusty pollen]

Stravaganza is more just a classic teen/YA fantasy, so it touches on like having a hard home life etc but nothing extreme iirc

[devout vault]

(Easy to find since I have the kindle app on my phone. 😛 Don’t actually have a kindle, typically use the desktop app)

[devout vault]

Mine too, nothing that happens in my dreams is physically possible. 😛

I trained my dream recall for 6 months when I was 13 (for lucid dreaming) and it just sorta stuck even after I stopped trying. It still will mostly fade after a bit if I don’t write it down, but usually I can still remember a few details that stood out

Anime time for real now

[cinder karma]

Yessss this one

[dusty pollen]

oh nice! I didn't remember the cancer part but the fantasy Italy part sounded very correct haha

[ivory shadow]

GitHub why the hells do you think I care even slightly about react on my personal account. Get outta here with your useless suggestions. And take copilot with it.

[marble jewel]

GitHub knows you have issues with facebook/react and wants you to open them /s

[strange copper]

github wants me to search "email validation regex in js" and "python password endpoint" which are oddly specific

[marble jewel]

Github is also pushing me towards facebook/react

[rotund violet]

GitHub recommends MonoMod to me, personally. "You're not exactly wrong, but... you're not exactly right, either."

[ivory shadow]

I bet it's recommending react to me because I recently did a PR to a JavaScript project. And even though it doesn't use react at all, the AI is fucking stupid as all AIs are and it assumes JS means react.

[cinder karma]

Does JS not mean react?

[lethal walrus]

it really wants people to find react problems https://dont-ever.download-ram.online/6Bb88JoXEX
at least for me it makes sense, I do react things sometimes

[rain apex]

You guys use the front page of GitHub

I only ever go there bc i looked up some repo

[rotund violet]

I just go there to get to my index of repos. Be nice if GitHub's homepage actually was just my list of repos instead of needing an extra couple of clicks.

[leaden marsh]

i didn't even realize that's a possible use case for it

i also only use it as an index for my repos

[cinder karma]

I've never used it

[rain apex]

Oh yeah i just bookmark my own profile for that

The repos tab

[cinder karma]

I just have two github accounts

And a gitlab

[devout vault]

I used to, before they ‘improved’ it. Used to I could see commits made in starred projects all in one place and chronologically (as well as some other useful stuff I’m forgetting), but then they revamped and now it feels useless to me. Like, I really don’t care if someone stars my repo, GitHub.

For a while you could go to /dashboard-feed (or something along those lines, not at my computer to check exactly) and still see the old feed, not sure if you still can

[lethal walrus]

looks like it is /dashboard-feed

[devout vault]

Ah. I see looking at it now that it shows stars too

But the new main page is only showing me my repos being starred and my repos being forked. No actual meaningful activity

(I know there's the filter settings, but I don't see anything that would make the useful stuff appear, except one that sounds like it would but I already have enabled)

[dusty pollen]

I don’t get why websites like github want to be social media platforms so badly

there is nothing I want less than that on my version control website

like I can’t seem to pin pathos’ mods repo to my sidebar unless I contribute to it in some way, and my home page is useless for that stuff, all that ends up happening is me googling the actual link

[ivory shadow]

Because they have to demonstrate growth for capitalism to think it's not seconds away from dying, and giving people a way to be social encourages growth. Not, like, good growth or anything. But... growth.

[modest jewel]

Lol we are gonna make a game with my 3 friends i got the coding cuz im the most capable one even i know nothing about it

[severe vault]

alright so I'm writing my notes for learning dictionaries in C# and I'm running across a weird split between the learning I'm reading and my application of it, wondering if you guys can help me parse what "?" is and what's going on.

In short, I have a dictionary, basic, for ease of remembering I'm using my Stardew spouses and assigning them by marriage order. The video notates code similar to this:

bool Wedding = MyFirstDictionary.TryGetValue(
    "Juliet", 
    out int? vows); 

I understand what it's supposed to do - Wedding will output false because Juliet's not in my list of spouses, which will make vows null because DNE. However, in Visual Studio, it gives me red code lines on the out int? vows part and it won't go away unless I remove the ?. The video has the similar thing in Visual Studio, but it's int/str rather than str/int.

My question: What is the "?" supposed to do in this example, and why do I have to take it out for the code to work?

I can go into more detail if needed, and use the exact code they used instead of my own code if I need to explain further.

[cinder karma]

? is short for "nullable"

for a value type like int (you can think of these as small types for now, but this is a major distinction in C# land)

[sand frost]

https://stackoverflow.com/questions/110229/is-int-somehow-a-reference-type

maybe this thread relevant

[cinder karma]

int? is short for Nullable<int>

in this case you don't have a nullable int in that function, it's just int

bool Wedding = MyFirstDictionary.TryGetValue(
    "Juliet", 
    out int vows); 
// if Wedding is false, vows is default(), aka 0 for int

[severe vault]

Okay, I think I sort of get it, but then it makes me confused because since Juliet isn't in the dictionary, it should be null, but if it's not int?, then it probably can't have null in it

i.e. since I have out int vows I shouldn't be able to have vows be null

[cinder karma]

no

that's reference types

in value types, you typically get the default of the type

for int, that's 0

point, it's 0,0

I seriously just have all this memorized

[sand frost]

basically ints are just more fundamental is how I think about it

[severe vault]

I know, hence why this is basic questions hour XD Technically the dictionaries video is like 15 minutes long, but I've been on it for an hour because I'm very certain I know how they'll be used in Stardew Modding - we talked about Key/Values for stuff like DNR

so vows will output 0 because it's not a nullable?

[sand frost]

"should" is probably doing too much work here

the question of what it "should" be is actually kind of a philosophical question in programming language design

[severe vault]

Wait, I think I might get it

Let me see if I can explain, so I'm not going off track.

Because my Dictionary is string, int and not int, string, my reverse of the code in the video's resulting in int? which wouldn't make sense for the values that are in there. The video, since it's using strings as the values rather than the keys, uses out string? value for the thing it's building. string? makes sense for that since it could, in theory, end up null. But for the opposite - string, int - int? doesn't make sense for what the results would be.

Does that about sum it up?

[cinder karma]

Now string is different because it is a reference type

[severe vault]

Ah. Of course. So it was a user error since I decided to use my custom one rather than the exact code in the video/assorted materials.

Thank you. I'll give the nullable stuff above a read when I get further in, it almost confused me for too long because I was expecting its behavior to work as I was previously intending

[sonic mirage]

If it was up to me strings wouldn't be nullable, they'd just be empty by default

[cinder karma]

Eh, I can see why having the difference is useful

[sonic mirage]

Sure, but you could also say that about any type

"Did the user enter a zero or is that just the default still?"

[devout vault]

Yeah, that's one of the main sort of reasons I use bool? for variables sometimes

(Or other value? stuff I guess, but bool is what comes to mind first since its just true or false, while with int you could just set the value to -999 or something that wouldn't be valid in your use case - may not be the best, but I learned in C++ first where we didn't have fancy nullables unless you just used pointers 😛 )

[dusty pollen]

for some reason my uni taught functional programming first, which means that now every time I see a nullable type I think of Maybe in Haskell

[rotund violet]

Sometimes the difference is useful, I'm sure, but the fact that the framework has had a built-in string.IsNullOrEmpty method since 2.0 or maybe 1.1 strongly suggests that most people don't find the difference very meaningful or important.

And the C# and .NET teams were not known for adding frivolous features back then, they resisted adding those kinds of one-line functions unless they were viewed as hugely important.

[devout vault]

I've legitimately used bool? like this multiple times. 😛 You don't exactly see direct tribool implementations much. The only one I've seen is the C++ Boost one

[ivory shadow]

I use bool? for tribool purposes too much, given how clunky it is behind the scenes

Nothing like allocating a struct for a three-state variable that could be represented with a single byte.

Now I want to benchmark bool? vs cs enum Tribool : byte { False, True, Indeterminate } lol

I'm sure Nullable is actually very efficient given how core to the language it is, but it feels unnecessary

[devout vault]

Wait can you do storage classes for enums in c# now? (That’s what I think they are called in c++ - the : byte part)

I’d prefer Maybe over Indeterminate - it doesn’t really fit in feel compared to other programming words (and probably doesn’t fit in meaning to as broad situations), but it’s so much shorter 😛

[ivory shadow]

I'm not going to say you could alway do that but I'm pretty sure that has been a thing for a long time.

Unknown could work too

[devout vault]

A bit better but still not as good as the other two options 😛

One thing I kinda liked about the boost tribool was with the operator overloading you could do something if ( tribool ) … else if ( !tribool ) … else …; it just seemed kinda neat. Not sure you could replicate with the more limited c# operator overloading (can’t recall what’s there besides match and comparison), but I don’t think you can operator overload for an enum in c# anyways

[ivory shadow]

Hmm. I have never tried. Does C# let you do ```cs
using TTrue = Tribool.True;
using TFalse = Tribool.False;
using TMaybe = Tribool.Maybe;

[devout vault]

Hmm… perhaps? I think you can do something like using static Some.Class; (though I might be confusing with Java)

[ivory shadow]

I don't think you'd want to do an implicit cast to boolean anyway, since how would that work for Maybe

[devout vault]

Well, maybe is neither true nor false

[ivory shadow]

tribool.OrFalse() and tribool.OrTrue()

[devout vault]

So it fits neither, it goes into that last else in what I posted

[ivory shadow]

Would probably work better for C#

[devout vault]

Enums are one of the few things I like about Java better.

Java doesn’t really have a lot going for it though (or at least the version I used when modding MC before I quit in 1.8 ) 😛

I should really go to bed like I said I did earlier, it’s past 2 AM at this point

[ivory shadow]

It's past 3am at this point

I am only up because of D&D

[safe dragon]

what's the advantage of a tribool enum over a nullable boolean

[ivory shadow]

Memory efficiency. It's still a value type and only 1 byte.

[devout vault]

JEALOUS cough

[ivory shadow]

lol

[devout vault]

Anyways, bedtime for real now, promise

[safe dragon]

hmmm

[ivory shadow]

Good night casey

[safe dragon]

Goodnight

[ivory shadow]

Really it's just a question of how much magic the compiler uses for Nullable

[devout vault]

Hmm, promise might be a strong word. How about just “probably”

Anyways, yes, good night

[dusty pollen]

using Maybe as a value for the Tribool might be kind of confusing to any devs who are used to it being a generic type (Maybe a is the haskell/functional equivalent of c#’s a?)

[dusty crow]

Hey does anyone know any good like lifestyle modds I can try to download for the new update

I tried stardew expended and ridgeside but those don't worry for the new update yet

I know I want like a different type of farm layout than vanilla ones and more crops and machines

[dusty pollen]

you're better off asking in #modded-stardew, this channel is for off-topic programming

(aka things relating to programming but not stardew)

[safe dragon]

someday this channel will move to the off-topic category 🙏

[dusty pollen]

nooo, I like having that category collapsed

[safe dragon]

[dusty pollen]

but then it only shows up when there are unread messages

you could always become a modder and join us in the rest of the modding channels

[safe dragon]

what do you mean it only shows up when there's unread messages?

the category isn't collapsed

I just have all other channels hidden

[dusty pollen]

oh I thought it was

I'm too used to having "show all channels" enabled haha

[safe dragon]

in my own little world there are only 5 channels in this server

btw

my computer is haunted I think

[dusty pollen]

did you connect it to a printer? classic haunting conduit

[safe dragon]

for some reason jetbrains toolbox launches automatically since a few days ago. I've tried uninstalling the program and it still somehow launches every time

according to my package manager it's still uninstalled

[dusty pollen]

careful, apple and samsung are going to start taking notes

[safe dragon]

I genuinely have no idea what's going on

it's not in my autostart

I don't launch it through my config

[dusty pollen]

what does ps aux | grep -i jetbrains show?

or alx if you're feeling fancy

[safe dragon]

hmmm

did I also build it from source manually at one point

but why is it autostarting

[dusty pollen]

which of those columns is parent pid again?

whichever one it is, check what the parent process is

[safe dragon]

it says the parent process is... jetbrains toolbox

[dusty pollen]

what's the parent for that one then?

[safe dragon]

wait no not parent id

how do I see this information...

[dusty pollen]

I have less than 3MB of space on my root partition rn that's not ideal

oh ppid isn't in ps aux

try ps alx

ps alx | grep -i jetbrains

[safe dragon]

systemd

is the parent

but I checked if there was a service running and couldn't find anything

[dusty pollen]

so it's being started by a systemd task

what distro did you say you're on?

[safe dragon]

arch

there is no systmctl task with jetbrains even in the name

[dusty pollen]

did you check the system systemd or the user systemd

(you can use --system and --user to explicitly set which you're connecting to)

[dusty pollen]

is that system or user though? I can never remember which is the default

[safe dragon]

ah

that's system

[dusty pollen]

then check user, the process is showing the executable is in your user home anyway

[safe dragon]

apparently the service is called app-jetbrains\[e-mail]

easy to find

yes

[dusty pollen]

interesting

I wonder what created that

[safe dragon]

I have no idea

I will stick with haunted pc

[dusty pollen]

you could always try pacman -Qo path/to/unit/file

why is this font taking up over a gigabyte of space

I'm pretty sure it's my terminal font though... don't know if I want to uninstall it

wait, not it isn't

[dusty pollen]

hmm, interesting

[safe dragon]

I must've run some installer directly at one point

[dusty pollen]

you could also try checking what owns the executable? but since it's in your user home I'd imagine it's a manual install

[safe dragon]

yeah

well whatever

time to get removed

[dusty pollen]

ran find ... -exec grep ..., waited like a whole minute, only for me to realise once it found something I forgot to tell it to log the name of the file 💀

[safe dragon]

[dusty pollen]

if this font isn't being used for anything, and it's taking up 1.4GB on my root partition that currently has single-digit MB of free space, why is it there

[safe dragon]

rebooted and the haunted toolbox is no more

a spicy font...

[dusty pollen]

currently searching through my entire home directory for mentions of it to see if a loose config file is using it for something

[dusty pollen]

all this time spent trying to free individual megabytes in my root partition and the issue may have been my home partition all along...

yup

annoying but at least I figured it out

I'll have to remember to add something to my maintenance script to clean out that paru cache directory once packages are uninstalled though because this was ridiculous

[dusty pollen]

at long last - maintenance script now runs without any errors

[tough rose]

gang does anyone what this 'galaxy api' error is i dont think i have a mod with that anywhere in the name?

[rain apex]

!mh

[indigo mist]

For help with modding issues, please ask in #1272025932932055121! When asking for assistance there, sharing an error log will help others identify your issue (see https://smapi.io/log for instructions).

To use this command, type !mh.

[ivory shadow]

#making-mods-general

[solid snow]

Sorryy

[cinder karma]

just personally, I'm having a lot of trouble getting my .vimrc to recognize systemverilog files

[pliant snow]

in what way

[cinder karma]

no idea.

it's the same line that is recognizing .v files fine

but .sv is just...not accepted

[pliant snow]

What does it need to recognize them for

[cinder karma]

if I type in :set syntax=verilog it colors them in fine

but if I don't, I don't get syntax highlight

[pliant snow]

oh i see

[cinder karma]

weird thing is, it's the exact same line in my .vimrc

[pliant snow]

oh i definitely used to have to do this for some files, how was it..

[cinder karma]

(lists .sv, .v, .vs)

[pliant snow]

oh here

try adding autocmd BufNewFile,BufRead *.sv set syntax=verilog

[cinder karma]

That's exactly what I have

Well

autocmd BufNewFile,BufRead *.v, *.vs, *.sv set syntax=verilog

I tried putting these in different orders too

[worn remnant]

i'm not good at vimscript but do you need to use , (no space) and not , (space) as your separator for the filename extensions?

and/or maybe it only takes one at a time and you need three commands or something asinine like vim would totally do

[cinder karma]

I'll try the three commands tomorrow

[pliant snow]

idk if you can list more than one

you might need to do multiple lines

[cinder karma]

You're right

It was the spaces

I'm learning vimscript the hard way

[safe dragon]

and then once you're done everyone will tell you to switch to an init.lua and neovim

[cinder karma]

I can't this isn't my machine

[worn remnant]

i will never tell anyone to switch to a text editor, let alone the one i use most often (vim). i would not inflict that on others

[safe dragon]

I'll tell anyone to use whatever weird ass editor I can think of

you should all switch to kakoune

[pliant snow]

gasps

[worn remnant]

i actually should (i know about that one)

[rotund violet]

You should write your code using pen and paper and then scan it with OCR, or take a photo with Google Lens.

[dusty pollen]

edit via cat and sed

piped back to the file

[marble jewel]

Is no one else using a tablet for coding?

[dusty pollen]

I used an ipad to ssh into a uni server and write code directly for the proprietary programming language they had installed there, so I can confirm it is technically possible

[safe dragon]

I did almost an entire year of advent of code on a tablet sshing into neovim on my server

I did however have a keyboard connected

[sonic mirage]

I think it's only fair that if we make sand compute things for us that we write our code in the sand first, before OCRing it into it electric brethren to be run.

Drawing zeros and ones with a stick, of course.

[scenic elbow]

Just bombed an interview because I was told to prep for questions not coding

I wanted to cry lol

I just want a job to feed myself

[rain apex]

Why write anything just use the sand to count bits and manually do cpu

[sonic mirage]

Just make a computer with sand blocks in Minecraft

[sonic mirage]

Try to use this as a learning opportunity so you can prepare for your next interview better. Find some key points to remember to do better at next time and just treat this one as practice.

[scenic elbow]

Thank you. Honestly I am seeing that studying leetcode/the basics is the way to go.

[scenic elbow]

Lol I just had a second interview with a different role.

And you ever see people's faces fall when they see you?

I won't lie. It was so obvious I almost laughed. Like they kept mutting their mics and talking to each other

[crystal wren]

My favourite interview feedback was (paraphrased) "okay, so you were clearly leagues ahead of all of the other candidates technically speaking, but you screwed up those basic formality interview questions hard".

Weirdly encouraging, honestly.

[cinder karma]

My university interviewer told me to look him in the eye

Literally

"You're a great person but you need to learn how to make eye contact."

[safe dragon]

I'm relatively convinced still that interviews are 80% vibe check and only like 20% an assessment of technical ability

[crystal wren]

I feel like I always overcompensate for this and end up looking like I want to throw something at them!

[safe dragon]

a piercing glare into their very soul

while I am absolutely worthless in casual (in person) social environments and capable of ruining the mood by sheer presence I have luckily always been pretty good in more professional settings like job interviews

[rain apex]

I am a small animal irl and incapable of

[ivory shadow]

There's only one rule from here on out
Keep eye contact
Even when they leave
Even when they sleep
Make sure that you are the one that's staring at them in their dreams
🎶

[crystal wren]

One of my favourite songs!

[safe dragon]

hope y'all manage to get through any future job interview vibe checks in the future

main criticism I've gotten so far at my current job has nothing to do with my work but it's that I should look more proud of what I've developed instead of telling them so matter of factly but that's just so incredibly unnatural to me even when I am proud of what I have made

[crystal wren]

Annoying thing about that instance is it wasn't even the vibe. I just couldn't think of answers for the silly standard interview questions!

Which I mean is good, because those kinds of things are mostly memorisation.

[dusty pollen]

it’s funny, because a lot of CS interviews genuinely give up on the formalities because of that when I was applying to uni people kept giving advice about those parts, but everyone I talked to in the unis in the CS department kept telling me I’d be lucky if they asked my name lmao

[safe dragon]

like the simple dumb ones...

I always get taken off guard with the regular questions that aren't about the programming cause I hadn't thought about them at all

[dusty pollen]

I do well in one-to-one interviews but terribly in hireviews and group interviews

probably the autism tbh

[crystal wren]

This one had two people in person, and one person remote on a screen.

[dusty pollen]

see if it’s just me and x amount of interviewers I can actually speak to, I’m usually okay for some reason

[rotund violet]

I'm generally of the opinion that the identity of a programmer is irrelevant, and prefer projects that preserve total anonymity, but those really only exist in the open source world, so reality being what it is, are you in fact making the best impression you can, dressing well for interviews and so on? Because this stuff does matter, not to every interviewer but to enough of them.

[ivory shadow]

It's been so long since I've interviewed for anything

I do not miss it

[rotund violet]

I agree, it sucks. But "don't interview" probably isn't great advice for someone who's looking for a job.

[crystal wren]

I shouldn't just listen in at windows and toss in paper aeroplanes with solutions handwritten on them until they decide to start giving me money?

[safe dragon]

showing off a basic grasp of the soft skills is far more valuable than I feel like a lot of developers think

[rotund violet]

You can get paid without interviewing, as a freelancer for example. But it's more difficult, less lucrative and less secure.

[safe dragon]

you can be the best programmer that has ever roamed this planet but if you can't communicate to save your life you're still going to end up being a liability

[dusty pollen]

idk what pumpkincorgi meant, but at least for me, it’s more like that’s the first time they realise I’m a woman 😅

[rain apex]

It's ok eventually the rejections stop bothering u

[rotund violet]

It really is. You don't have to be a super stud, just presentable and professional.

[dusty pollen]

and even worse, if you give off the vibe that you’re one of those devs that refuses to communicate?

[safe dragon]

me sitting there waiting for the interviewing rehearsing how handshakes work in my head

[crystal wren]

Or if you made JDSL.

[safe dragon]

if you're tom you're set

[dusty pollen]

I’d hire JDSL guy. I’d rather know what he’s up to

[rotund violet]

Geez, I didn't think you were that awkward.

[safe dragon]

well I've gotten through every interview I've ever been in so clearly I rehearse it well

[safe dragon]

I worked with one for several years

[rotund violet]

I've never had a problem with handshakes or hellos, just not a fan of inane chitchat.

[safe dragon]

I mean I rehearse any conversation in my head beforehand

that's just how I function

I'd call it autism but I don't have a diagnosis nor do I feel any desire to get one

[rotund violet]

I probably used to, but I learned quickly enough that the real thing never goes according to the rehearsed plan, so it's kind of pointless to try.

Same thing even with presentations and demos which are a lot more scripted. You never know when people are going to stop you or what questions they are going to have, and a bunch of super detailed notes and instructions can't replace in-depth knowledge of the topic and some passion for it (thus I don't present on things I DGAF about).

[dusty pollen]

ngl as someone who did end up getting one, I think that’s a perfectly valid thing to say. It’s not like there’s something that needs to be done about it saying “probably autism, who knows” is valid imo

[safe dragon]

he's the reason I've grown of the opinion that I would rather work with a mediocre developer who just knows how to communicate when he's having issues than a guy who can do pretty much anything relevant to the job but is miserable to be in a team with

[rotund violet]

I'd rather have both.

Both of the good points, I mean.

[safe dragon]

oh yes

in an ideal world

I know it's not like this in a lot of other places but here you're lucky if you get like 5 applicants total

you don't always have such an option

[rotund violet]

All depends on the scale of work and pay the company is willing to offer.

I've been in those situations where it's impossible to find anyone halfway competent to fill a position. But when I experienced those situations it was meh work for meh pay.

So you're going to get meh applicants.

[dusty pollen]

my opinion is similar but a tiny bit different - I think if you refuse to communicate and document you are inherently a bad developer

[safe dragon]

documentation

[dusty pollen]

if your code is only maintainable by you but looks like spaghetti, has no comments, all the variables are stupid and is hardcoded to hell and back, I don’t care how much it’s able to do right now, it’s terrible code

but people don’t seem to agree with me

[rotund violet]

I'm looking forward to the day when I can get ChatGPT to write the docs.

I know how to write good docs, but it is never not an insufferable drag.

[safe dragon]

my swagger page is my documentation 🙏 🙏 🙏 (unfortunately this argument does not hold up)

[dusty pollen]

by “documented” personally I don’t necessarily mean actual documentation, but at least appropriate comments where necessary (not every line, this is not programming class, why are people taught this 😭) and a readme

[rotund violet]

Also known as "who needs comments, my methods are self-documenting"

[safe dragon]

PropertValue propertyValue = GetPropertyValue() \\Gets the property value

[dusty pollen]

somewhat valid if true, too often used when it isn’t

[rotund violet]

I'm curious what language uses backslashes for comments.

[dusty pollen]

that’s like the uncanny valley of code

[safe dragon]

none I'm just very tired

[rotund violet]

I think the more traditional parody is:
i = i + 1; // increment i

[dusty pollen]

right along with code that includes the left and right versions of double quotes

[crystal wren]

You're an hour ahead of me, and I'm already in bed procrastinating sleep.

[dusty pollen]

I wish teachers didn’t actually teach that “comment every line” nonsense

[crystal wren]

I guess I avoided that by not being taught!

[dusty pollen]

I wasn’t taught but I got to listen to people being taught

[safe dragon]

I am of the opinion that if you're writing sensible code, 95% of it does not need a comment. Comments are reserved for when you do something that needs an explanation of why.
If you need comments to explain what it is doing then it's probably better to refactor it unless you're in some hellish hot code path that's micro-optimized to illegibility

[dusty pollen]

which is why I strongly believe that nobody is really taught programming because no version of those lessons was ever remotely good

[rotund violet]

Yes, that's a pretty noncontroversial opinion.

The problem is with the number of developers who drastically, catastrophically underestimate the number of instances where they need to explain why.

[safe dragon]

it is, though especially new programmers often don't really understand this in my experience

[dusty pollen]

if you need comments explaining what your code is doing, then either what you said, or you’ve read too many books and articles about “the zen of python” and the pythonic way to do things and have completely lost the plot

[safe dragon]

"well it made total sense to me when I wrote this code"

I'm sure I'm guilty of this honestly

[dusty pollen]

I definitely am, but hopefully not for professional code haha

[rotund violet]

Code review helps a lot with this.

[dusty pollen]

stuff at home for personal stuff though? five minutes later there’s a 50/50 chance it’s indecypherable

(speaking of, I got my arch laptop fully updated )

[safe dragon]

gratz

[crystal wren]

Yay!

Pun intended.

[safe dragon]

framework just announced an event on the 25th for some "2nd gen" thing so I might be getting a laptop within the next month or two

[crystal wren]

I'm going to be keeping an eye open for that!

[latent bough]

luckily I haven't met one that does

they usually tell me to comment why you do something rather than what the thing is

[safe dragon]

honestly their page announcing the event is cursed as hell

[latent bough]

and then they also say to comment things that are complex

like math formulas

but that's about it

[latent bough]

they don't like Cat cat = new Cat(); // Make new cat

they would hate that lol

[safe dragon]

I have deciphered framework is announcing... electric color yoga

[rotund violet]

Probably some PR intern who does not understand the audience at all.

[dusty pollen]

I have met ones that encouraged “as many comments as possible”, and have been sent programming assignments by friends where the teacher required a comment on every line. It’s more common in entry-level stuff though where the teacher themselves is not necessarily super qualified.

[dusty pollen]

is this a hardware reveal or am I bring recruited into an mlm

[rotund violet]

Or maybe does understand, and I'm just not the target audience.

[safe dragon]

my favorite comments are 10 year old ones that people left in despite changing the code it's referring to so they no longer make any sense at all

[rotund violet]

// TODO: <thing that was implemented 7 months ago in a totally different way from what's described here>

[safe dragon]

a TODO should never make it into a PR, that's like placing a curse onto whatever the todo is referring to

[latent bough]

that's so not great

i'm sorry for your loss

[sonic mirage]

I use a lot of comments, but I do make sure to remove ones that don't apply anymore

[dusty pollen]

because I’m self-taught, I typically already knew more than the class level and often the teacher back when those types of classes were relevant to me, so we ha an agreement where I basically just sat in the back of the class and did nothing haha. Got to hear a lot of this stuff though

[sonic mirage]

The worst is someone putting a certain value in a comment and then that value was changed in code but not in comments

[dusty pollen]

I once had one of my computer science teachers in secondary school walk up to me and the one other self-taught programmer in the school and pitch us a revolutionary idea he had, and make sure you’re sitting down for this one guys - he wanted us to make him an AI that could figure out trading on the stock market for him

[safe dragon]

a really awful thing that was extremely common in the old codebases at my old job was people putting changes in methods that have nothing to do with what they just changed just because they happened to be within the code path they were targeting. The cash register and old web interface thing were both big callback hell scenario's and people were often just not in the mood to try and figure out where the best place would be to put the change

so they'd find some random place breakpoints seem to actually hit and put the change there

[dusty pollen]

nooo 😭 I can already imagine the debugging

[sonic mirage]

That's a saboteur, not a programmer

[rain apex]

Sounds good just ship it

[sonic mirage]

"Yeah I hacked in a quick fix" "Cool you're fired"

[dusty pollen]

that is so viscerally upsetting that all the programming people all showed up at once

[rain apex]

We're in #programmers-off-topic

[ivory shadow]

Oh, that could be for timing for me. Maybe they'll do a new smaller Framework with a keyboard that doesn't suck

[dusty pollen]

ik, just meant the ones that weren’t in the convo already haha

[rotund violet]

Fortunately my own commits to my own repos are not PRs.

[rain apex]

Despite the netherland talk it is programming zone

[safe dragon]

The really fun thing about this is that doing that only makes it even harder to figure out the correct location to put things in because the callback names no longer represent what it actually does

it just spirals out of control

[rotund violet]

Unfortunately this is ubiquitous, it's the standard "big ball of mud".

Refactoring would be inconvenient, so opt for the quick fix.

And after a time, refactoring is no longer even sufficient, it has to be redesigned, and redesigning would be extremely inconvenient so you can just forget about that.

[safe dragon]

There was one case where I was asked to just remove a confirmation popup from one of the workflows because it wasn't really necessary anymore and all the callbacks were so full of random nearly unrelated logic that I genuinely spent like 3 entire days trying to figure out how to take it out without breaking the most bizarre random things

[dusty pollen]

so you’re saying this is the right place for my ”2” - 1 == 1 but ”2” + 1 == “21” rant?

excuse the quotes, I am on the ipad

[safe dragon]

I am the biggest hater of aggressive type coercion

[dusty pollen]

I’ll give you guys one guess which language committed that sin

[safe dragon]

those things shouldn't give an answer

they should either not compile in the first place or crash

[dusty pollen]

I know there’s a reason javascript of all languages chose to do it, I still hate it

“it needs to be flexible for user input in front-end web dev” only takes you so far

[safe dragon]

at the bare minimum if you don't want things to break it should force a warning to be logged when it occurs

[dusty pollen]

the second one is somewhat acceptable to me by the way, it’s the first one that’s particularly egregious

[safe dragon]

I don't like either of them but yeah. I'm okay with like $"{a}{b}" doing implicit conversions to strings because you're in a scenario where it's very obvious that that was the actual intent

but a +?

nah man

unless you have a dedicated string concatenation operator you're not getting a pass for implicit conversion

[dusty pollen]

I love dedicated string concat operators

every language should use ++ for string concat imo

[safe dragon]

how about oracle sql using ||...

elixir with <>

[dusty pollen]

,,, no

I half accept <> as meaning !=

[safe dragon]

me too

[sonic mirage]

var thing = mightBeFalsyVar || fallbackVar;
Oh, JS, that should result in a boolean value, silly

Especially amusing now that the ?? null(ish) coalesce operator exists

[safe dragon]

I still have to take a second to parse stuff like if(value) to realize it's doing a null check not checking a boolean value

[rotund violet]

All problems can be solved with !!

JS programmers are very excitable.

[sonic mirage]

Technically a "falsy" check

[safe dragon]

"sorry this value is too falsey"

[rotund violet]

JS minifiers will actually replace true with !0 because it's shorter.

[sonic mirage]

A single space in a string? Not false enough, now it's true

[sonic mirage]

Minifiers do all sorts of nonsense. Best not to look in there or you might catch a weird habit

[safe dragon]

minifiers can do whatever kind of hellish magic they wish

code golf my program for all I care

[rotund violet]

Ok, fine, I won't write !0 for true. But I will write !!0 for false.

[safe dragon]

!!!0

[safe dragon]

I think Javascript should add some random string that's statistically extremely unlikely that suddenly evaluates to false

[rotund violet]

I'm just kidding. I would obviously write !1 for false, no sense in wasting a whole character.

[safe dragon]

just likely enough that someone will run into it

[ivory shadow]

It's true. JS programmers are always over Reacting

[rotund violet]

Yes, they are always in a state of emotional Flux

[safe dragon]

always looking for the Next big thing

[rotund violet]

Next is yesterday's news, it's all about the Nuxt now.

(You only think I'm joking)

[safe dragon]

I do know nuxt

well

I know of nuxt

[ivory shadow]

Nuxt is good for devs who wanted a different point of vue.

I wish js devs would take the threat of oxidation more seriously though. All their tool chains are getting so Rusty.

[rotund violet]

Channel renamed to #programming-puns

I guess I broke the 4th wall, but I wasmerely calling out the trend.

[rotund violet]

Too cryptic, was it? Well <Cartman voice> screw you guys, I'm goin' home.

[dusty pollen]

the existence of the !! convention is proof that js is dark magic and not a programming language

[safe dragon]

I once had to fill in a pdf that used some XML form spec thing that absolutely nothing seemed to support. I couldn't open the damn thing in any pdf viewer I tried

I ended up installing Adobe acrobat in a windows virtual machine

because nothing else worked

Oops wrong server and channel

that made no sense out of context

but I'll keep it here

(context: someone in another server was ranting about pdf files)

[sonic mirage]

I have to deal with PDFs for work and they're the worst. We ended up getting an Adobe license so we (read: me) can build forms into PDFs, which we then have to generate FDFs which fill in said forms programmatically. The most frustrating part is you can build everything like you want and get it all lined up and spaced and everything, but if you save and close it, then the next time you open it Adobe has to go through the PDF and just guess at how you can things grouped, spaced, and lined up, and it's never how you had it, so you can't ever easily make edits

[dusty pollen]

at least adobe finally gave up their ownership of the format a few years ago 😭

[sonic mirage]

only symbolically

[dusty pollen]

you don't need their license or permission to do things now though, right?

the weirdest bit about pdfs for me is their optimisation quirks. Like they sometimes store partial info about a font which only covers the letters currently in use

[crystal wren]

Weirdest thing to me about PDFs that I learned recently is that they can actually contain and run JavaScript.

[safe dragon]

you can't escape Javascript

I wish we had a better document format than pdf that people also actually use

I don't know a whole lot about the pdf spec but I do know that even dedicated pdf viewers consistently seem to be unable to render them correctly which tells me enough

[dusty pollen]

that seems perfectly natural tbh. Everyone knows that javascript is attracted to cool, damp places with plenty of cursed decisions and maximal client-side exposure

[dusty pollen]

I think basically nothing not made by adobe can handle them correctly to the full extent, which tells me either adobe were intentionally shitty about that or it's a very cursed format (or both)

[safe dragon]

both

surely we at least have a better option out there for the ones that don't even have a form

those are literally just static pages

but I know my wishes are unrealistic. People still use excel sheets for data imports and exports after all

who doesn't want their data imports and exports to go through a locale sensitive interpreter

[dusty pollen]

my favourite was a business critical VBA script hard linking to SharePoint files the owners of which had no idea were being used in this way

[safe dragon]

that sounds like something I could've experienced myself

[dusty pollen]

we only found out when it broke because someone deleted it, but it turned out nobody was updating most of them anyway and, again, business critical I believe it was the ops team's single source of truth spreadsheet generator for resourcing

[safe dragon]

personally I make sure all my software is completely reliant on internet explorer being installed

[sonic mirage]

How else will I open my SVGs /s

[dusty pollen]

manual edits, duh

[warm citrus]

anyone have a stardew mod where everything is pink themed 😄

[ivory shadow]

This channel is not for Stardew related topics. Try #modded-stardew

[rain apex]

wow new feature

[sonic mirage]

"tomorrow or later tonight", ah yes, very specific

[leaden marsh]

On the offhand chance this is well-intentioned, this is just chain mail spam btw

[glass herald]

@sleek fox dont spread chain mail like that

[safe dragon]

they should make undocumented application APIs that don't follow any coherent logic illegal

wish I could summon whoever wrote this tool all those years ago and ask how they even figured out how to do this

ah yes call this undefined magic string as a method name and get supplementary_field33

at least I've now become intimately familiar with attaching a debugger to a running process

[pliant snow]

lol what

[safe dragon]

shout-out to supplementary_field16

no idea what it contains its just a weird string of numbers and periods

[pliant snow]

so not like base64 or something

Behold! My magic black box. Not only do you not know what's going on inside it, but you don't know what to put into it, or what you want out of it

[rotund violet]

Morse code?

Oh never mind, I misread that as dashes and periods for some reason.

[safe dragon]

It would be very amusing if some random field contained morse code

the person who wrote the implementation isn't really helping the situation with variable names like im_slstf

I have figured out what supplementary_field16 is

it's a bunch of article codes separated by periods

which means it has nothing to do with what I wanted

oh well

tomorrow is another day

[pliant snow]

there's always supplementary_fields 1 thru 15

[safe dragon]

and 17 through 33

[lethal walrus]

actually fairly old

just uncommon

[rotund violet]

As much as I hate having to deal with it, I understand the pressures in smallish, non-tech companies that cause devs to do it. It always starts out as a project with vague requirements leading to an endless parade of change requests with no forethought or overarching design sense, so devs say fine, screw it, I'm just going to add 30 "custom fields" for you to do whatever the hell you want and add some basic search and filtering.

Which is bad, it's a variant of the Inner Platform Effect, but the alternatives are either (a) hate your job even more or (b) quit.

[safe dragon]

whatever their reasons may be, I don't like them

I've experienced "custom fields" in some fashion in a lot of software but they always provide some way to associate a proper name with them instead of some nondescript field

[rotund violet]

Yeah, that part is just laziness. Nested indexable structures in an Oracle database or other RDB are hard, easier to just slap on 30 new fields.

But would you do all the work to implement a fancy custom field system, if you had no idea how much it was going to get used or how the users really expected it to work?

[safe dragon]

I'm more on the side of overengineering things to handle scenarios that will never happen

so probably

also bad but in the opposite direction...

though it depends on time pressure

[rotund violet]

Yes, that's the clincher. "Oh and by the way, we need this done in twelve days."

[cinder karma]

"Yeah, and this was due....yesterday."

[safe dragon]

a classic

at my old job basically everything always had to be done within at most a few days

the "sprints" were symbolic

[rotund violet]

In reality the time crunch isn't usually that ridiculous on its face, only ridiculous when you map it all out. "You have 2 months... but you also have to complete these five other projects, you'll be dealing with constant interruptions and tech support, and 2 months includes all the time you'll get for testing, shipping and documentation".

[marble jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/space-great-office-space-do-that-cubicle-gif-5513243

[safe dragon]

testing and documentation can luckily be skipped!

[rotund violet]

(and usually are)

[cinder karma]

The poor lady at costco is trying to sell air conditioning

It's below freezing out

[safe dragon]

are they ac's with heating functions

[cinder karma]

This is the united states

What do you think

Heat pumps are communism

Ye haw

[safe dragon]

idk man. Y'all have funky vents in your walls

[cinder karma]

I'm told you guys have funky toilets

[safe dragon]

the poop shelf

I don't actually have one unfortunately

[cinder karma]

Unfortunately?

[safe dragon]

betraying my culture

[rotund violet]

Mini splits have been taking off in a lot of places, and are pretty great in my experience.

Heat pumps just suck compared to a gas furnace.

[safe dragon]

new installation here are now required to at least be heat pump hybrids

heatpump with fallback to a regular central heating boiler

[rotund violet]

That sounds not at all needless and wasteful and failure prone

[safe dragon]

main goal is to reduce our massive reliance on natural gas

[rotund violet]

Yeah, to be fair, it is near-illegal to buy cheap Russian gas in Europe, and U.S. LNG is like five times the price

[safe dragon]

we used to have very large natural gas reserves within the country borders so a lot of systems were built around the abundance of cheap gas but eventually it started causing quakes and all sorts of issues so we eventually had to mostly stop and now we have to rely on foreign import for it

which is very expensive

the vast majority of all homes(including my own) still rely on natural gas for heating and of course the stove

though the stove usage is pretty much negligible compared to heating

[rotund violet]

wat... fracking causes, like, magnitude 1 earthquakes, intentionally. That sounds like some BS activism got it shut down, probably U.S. astroturf.

[safe dragon]

nah wasn't bullshit. Some towns were effectively completely destroyed due to either simply quakes or pits collapsing in on themselves

the government would've continued if it had been at all feasible

[sand frost]

last I read about it, it causes super small quakes directly, but it also seems to make the underlying geology more unstable, increasing the number of larger more noticeable quakes but with potentially a large time delay

It's been a few years since I looked into this though

[safe dragon]

important to remember than the netherlands is a tiny country and there's no such thing as a gas fields that aren't below places people live

[pliant snow]

you would think the netherlands would be perfect for wind and hydro tho

It's like, your destiny

[rotund violet]

I've read about this too, and the sources of that info tell me a lot about its plausibility.

[sand frost]

as the floods rush in, use them for power?

[safe dragon]

we do have a lot of wind, hydro actually not because that would require a height difference from a dam to something else

[sand frost]

I can see why letting the ocean flood in might be unpopular

[safe dragon]

we spend energy to keep the water out we don't gain energy

[pliant snow]

Just invade belgium and be done with it smh

[safe dragon]

we don't want belgium

[sand frost]

too many waffles?

[safe dragon]

too many belgians

letting the ocean flood is kind of just part of our regular water management systems

[pliant snow]

ah yeah that is a problem

is not possible to do tidal generation

[safe dragon]

use energy to create waves to harvest energy

wind is easily out biggest renewable source

[pliant snow]

oh look at you, well done

[safe dragon]

solar tries its best...

[pliant snow]

why does wikipedia insist on svgs with no backgrounds

[safe dragon]

idk

they do this a lot

which doesn't help with wikipedia itself having a dark mode these days

[pliant snow]

I was reading that apparently its really popular in Germany to get solar panels that you just hang off your balcony now

[safe dragon]

here it's just becoming very common to have solar panels on your roof

[pliant snow]

oh here we go

[safe dragon]

idk about balconies

[safe dragon]

it honestly looks more like we just cut down on the amount of energy we're using instead of replacing the source of the energy

[pliant snow]

your oil consumption has been going up, which is interesting

[safe dragon]

scrumptious oil

idk what that is used for

"energy" but for what

[pliant snow]

electrical generation i assume

oh here

i have taken over this channel with graphs

[safe dragon]

we have merged

our trajectory is looking a little better

[pliant snow]

Ours they want to lean on gas before phasing it out

[safe dragon]

meanwhile we're trying to get rid of gas

[pliant snow]

or maybe not, who knows anymore

[safe dragon]

it's interesting cause when I look online for an electricity plan it's almost solely "pure wind/solar" contracts

I'm sure it's different for industry

[rain apex]

programming-netherlands i see

[safe dragon]

yes

[cinder karma]

Successfully off topic from programming

[rain apex]

What is biofuel

Is Netherlands burning cowdung

[safe dragon]

biofuel as far as I know just means burning shit like wood?

biodiesel from crops or random stuff like wood chips, sawdust...

it's one of those "renewable energy sources" that isn't actually good for the environment

it's just renewable

[rain apex]

Scams

[pliant snow]

if the plants are grown specifically for that, it's technically carbon neutral

except they're not, they just cut down forests for it lol

[cinder karma]

(Yes.)

Algae is pretty promising

Biofuels also can be burning excess unwanted biomass

[safe dragon]

unwanted biomass like the amazon rainforest

[pliant snow]

dont want it

[cinder karma]

Unwanted biomass as in "lawn clippings"

Or "the peels of veggies"

That shit

[safe dragon]

idk what it is here since we don't exactly have forests to cut or anything. I assume we grow crops for it?

and that I suppose

[sonic mirage]

sounds like stuff you should be composting

[safe dragon]

we do have a bin for compostables

[pliant snow]

please compost the amazon

[rain apex]

Ig it's like hay right

And Christmas trees after Christmas

[pliant snow]

I suspect they need a bit more than that to power the country

[safe dragon]

we mass produce christmas trees year round

all to burn them

[pliant snow]

they make sure to add tinsel, so they can be qualified as christmas trees

[safe dragon]

the tinsel is also burnt

[pliant snow]

my god maybe its tulips

it all makes sense

[safe dragon]

[pliant snow]

really the ideal energy generating country

[safe dragon]

100% tulip based energy

[pliant snow]

Surely a country wouldnt base their entire economy on tulips

Again

[safe dragon]

it only has an economic concept named after it

luckily cryptocurrency have made sure the spirit behind tulip mania stays alive

[rotund violet]

(Surely it never happened in the first place, and tulip mania was always a complete myth)

[safe dragon]

as far as I know tulip mania very much happened

but it didn't affect anyone except some rich bastards

[ivory shadow]

Not me reading that as "Surely a country wouldnt base their entire economy on tuples"

[safe dragon]

tuples aren't a good data structure to base an entire country's economy on

[ivory shadow]

Tuples aren't even a good data structure to base a return value from a method on /s /but-not-that-s

[rotund violet]

What about an entire language? coughpythoncough

[safe dragon]

don't base your economy on the python programming language

[ivory shadow]

Imagine if the economy did use python

All these day traders caring about millisecond latency and stuff and then you just poop all over it with python

[rotund violet]

Python can handle latencies in the milliseconds, provided you don't put a cap on the number of milliseconds.

[ivory shadow]

12,500 milliseconds is still a number of milliseconds

[rotund violet]

Maybe that would be an effective way to stabilize the markets, just mandate python for all fintech.

[ivory shadow]

That concept is terrifying

[rotund violet]

Okay... python or Excel VBA, we'll make it a choice.

[marble jewel]

How about Excel Python?

[rotund violet]

If such a thing exists, I'm glad I haven't seen it.

[marble jewel]

For anyone unaware that is a thing https://support.microsoft.com/en-us/office/python-in-excel-availability-781383e6-86b9-4156-84fb-93e786f7cab0

[ivory shadow]

Welp time to exchange all my money for gold and wait for society to collapse

[rotund violet]

Putting Python in Excel is like putting bacon in oatmeal.

[marble jewel]

Yummy

[rotund violet]

...which might not be such a bad idea, come to think of it.

[marble jewel]

People are beginning to use Python in Excel at my work

[safe dragon]

I believe it wouldn't be allowed at my current job because it's not run locally but on their cloud services

I suppose a part of the company is allowed to

[marble jewel]

I work in Microsoft's backyard, they have a lot of influence over the tools we use

Big contracts, so anything on their services tend to be approved

[safe dragon]

we use a metric fuckton of microsoft stuff as well

[rotund violet]

Oh, even better than just Python in Excel, Python in Excel which runs on Microsoft's cloud. Fintech would love that!

[safe dragon]

very exciting

but how will you PInvoke through python

[rotund violet]

I can literally feel the wind in my hair.

[rotund violet]

Obviously start a .NET runtime from Python and P/Invoke with that.

[safe dragon]

smart

on their servers

[pliant snow]

I'm pleased to announce I have learned a new vim keystroke combination

[safe dragon]

enlighten us

[rotund violet]

I still only know the two :wq and :cq

[thin estuary]

that's already twice as many as i do

[rotund violet]

I reject all other knowledge about vim keystrokes.

[pliant snow]

... the fuck does :cq do

[sand frost]

I think :q and :x is all I know

[pliant snow]

I ran :cq and it quit, what else it did I shall never know

[safe dragon]

deleted the entire project and force removed the remote repo

[pliant snow]

In any case, I have now learned of daw

[safe dragon]

delete around word?

[pliant snow]

which deletes the word under the cursor

ctrl-w also does the same thing I think while in insert mode

[safe dragon]

does that do anything different from diw

[pliant snow]

diw leaves the space I think

[safe dragon]

makes sense

I use a lot of those

diw diB di( etc

[pliant snow]

isn't dib and di( the same

I use dib a lot, but I didn't know you could just specify a word from the middle

[safe dragon]

dib and di( should be teh same thing yes

diB is di{ though

I know there's also the s selector for the entire sentence that I never use

[pliant snow]

oh maybe i didnt know about diB then...

I think my s has been overwritten by a plugin, I never use it for what it's actually used for

[safe dragon]

guessing you have sneak mode or something

[rotund violet]

That's exactly what it does. Quit without saving.

[safe dragon]

:q! is the more conventional approach for that

[rotund violet]

That's all I need to know about vim; how to save and quit, and how to quit without saving.

Actually I do know how to move lines also, since that's important for rebasing.

[sand frost]

I just need to know how to exit

My prevailing feeling upon being dumped into vim is “aaaaaaaa get me out of here”

[safe dragon]

missing out

[rotund violet]

Well, :cq is a good one to know for that in case you accidentally type something and :q doesn't just exit.

[sonic mirage]

I just think of :q! as a "sudo exit" of sorts