programmers-off-topic

[rain apex]

i mean the library that wants jemalloc did say "jemalloc good"

[somber aspen]

Lmao

[rain apex]

but it also says use gcc9 so im about this

[somber aspen]

Wtf

Python 3.8

Nah more like 3.9 maybe?

Py moves too fast

[rain apex]

i dont think this has anything to do with python

[somber aspen]

Apparently I'm wrong and py is a slow asf

Nah it doesn't

Gcc9 just old

And came out around 3.11 of python so me shoehorning relation to python didn't even hit

See if I care tho

So guys does sve still have a place?

Or does the update actually have all that bad ass extended desert shiet

[rain apex]

go ask in #modded-stardew

[somber aspen]

Just call me the off topic guy

Aka annoying bastard

But yes can't you just cmake?

Some repos too hip for releases

[rain apex]

building and linking isnt the issue

more that it dun work if jemalloc and im unsure why

[somber aspen]

Hmmm

And wondering If it dead?

Like if it's actually gon be maintained

I bought one year of runwayML

[rain apex]

atm i suspect we built jemalloc wrong

[somber aspen]

And how stupid am I? And what should I do with it.

Make a movie about programming ew god no

[somber aspen]

How

Jeez that auto correct felt some type of way

[rotund violet]

Random flashback to the morning conversation of "why would you want numeric traits" - I want generic math right now for a slider control, but crusty old .NET 6 doesn't have it.

[rain apex]

is that like c# version of operator overloads

[rotund violet]

No, it's a complete feature in .NET 7 and above.
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/standard/generics/math

(which is more or less the same as num_traits and trait math in general in Rust)

[cinder karma]

Number of times i have been tempted to decompile something at work ++

[safe dragon]

pretty impressive how much faster blazor webassembly has become over the last few years and how terrible it still is despite that

I swear microsoft also just changes their mind on the core identity of what blazor even is with every new .NET release

with .NET 8 they introduced the revolutionary concept of basic static page rendering which is now also immediately the default, with you having to opt into interactive components manually

at least for .NET 9 they don't seem to be completely overhauling the core project structure of a blazor application for once

so many odd things about blazor that I fail to understand

By default it uses both "enhanced navigation" and "prerendering" which currently do not work when used together

maybe by .NET 10 they'll fix that

there's definitely worse though

https://github.com/dotnet/aspnetcore/issues/10522

This issue has been moved and moved since .NET Core 3

despite debounce and throttle being fundamental features of web frameworks

it's blazor tradition though to consider fundamental web framework features as low priority

lord knows what they do actually consider high priority

[rotund violet]

I think they're not putting their best people on that particular project.

[safe dragon]

I sure hope not

if this is the best they got

blazor is very powerful but man it's full of so many footguns that are so easy to run into you can't understand why they're allowed to exist

having used svelte 5 for a while now I become increasingly disappointed by blazor

I don't think it's a doomed project but they really gotta fix the biggest footguns

[rotund violet]

y u no use Tauri?

[safe dragon]

idk how that would help

beyond running a blazor wasm app inside of tauri

[rotund violet]

I meant instead of blazor of course.

[safe dragon]

tauri makes more sense as a replacement for like... webview or something

MAUI as well

which uses webview

at least when you do a hybrid blazor maui app thing

blazor is just for running websites not necessarily for standalone applications

[rotund violet]

Oh I thought blazor was just for the frontend... like vue/svelte/next/react/angular/etc.

[safe dragon]

more like sveltekit than svelte

[devout vault]

I was doing some azure stuff recently and the fact that there isn't a way to do functional tests with .net 8 isolated workers was so aggravating. Had to run multiple instaces of VS and run the functions manually instead

[rotund violet]

Ok so... why not tauri with sveltekit lol

[safe dragon]

it'd be a website so tauri is useless

this would be for work though

I would not pick blazor out of personal choice

[rotund violet]

Ahhh, ok, that makes a lot more sense.

[safe dragon]

my personal project uses sveltekit

[safe dragon]

sounds very convenient...

blazor does have advantages over sveltekit but not when it comes to website performance

a big advantage is no npm/node 🙏

also a lot more out of the box for security, antiforgery, that kinda stuff

and you actually have a proper type system instead of the clearly kinda tacked on nature of typescript with sveltekit

[rotund violet]

Sveltekit does admittedly have a lot of suckiness. If I have to do another website, I'm probably going to try Rocket.

[safe dragon]

rocket to me is a rust web api framework

oh is that what you mean...

I suppose you can use that

[rotund violet]

It's web in general, not just web APIs.

Should not have much trouble running a vue or angular app? But again, have not tried.

[safe dragon]

probably not

I've only really used axum

which I do like though it doesn't have a pretty website like rocket

[rotund violet]

Axum is probably just as capable, yes.

I like my separation of concerns. I realize there are conveniences like hot reload, but I'm not a huge fan of the regression toward do-it-all frameworks that try to bundle the backend/middleware and HTML/CSS/JS content like ASP.NET used to do.

So to me a good setup is: write a REST API using some backend, write a router using same/different backend, write frontend using a JS framework. If there's some passive integration then great.

[safe dragon]

I do like when there's at least a clear separation for what runs on the server and what doesn't

that's the same way I tend to do things

I'd say the main downside of not using the dedicated server for some Javascript framework is features like treeshaking

so that it doesn't need to load the entire Javascript bundle before anything loads

[rotund violet]

Many of the client-side frameworks have module support now.

I guess modularization requires a little more upfront design than top-to-bottom tree-shaking but it works pretty well.

[raw pelican]

Dumb question, a pull request is when a person grabs your repo, makes some changes, and then requests that it be merged into the main? Is that common with open source stuff? Can anyone do it if my stuff is on github and visible?

[cinder karma]

Well

"Common" is overstating it

But it is the point of OS

[raw pelican]

Might feel more common in this community I guess, it's very collaborative.

So that would be like, I put an i18n into a mod, then someone who wants to do a translation would grab the i18n, translate everything, and then pull request it back to the main mod, where I accept it and then push an update to nexus.

[cinder karma]

Or straight up code changes

[raw pelican]

And then what's protocol if a mod is abandoned and someone updates it? I assume the updater just makes it work again and does not add function but do you put it on your own github page and at what point if it's fully abandoned does it become "yours"?

[cinder karma]

It depends

For my stuff, For example, because I'm permissively licensed

Someone could just do it

Even if I didn't formally abandon

[rain apex]

If it's a permissive license you can make unofficial update if you want

That's "redistribution of binaries"

It never becomes "not theirs" but your code changed/commits are yours

So if you also perish and a third person comes along to maintain all 3 of u r license holders to various degrees

[raw pelican]

I haven't seen a lot of people going wild west on it is why I wondered if people just respect that someone "owns" a mod unless it's abandoned, or if there's just not that many coders who would make copies/updates.

[cinder karma]

It's more respect than anything elze

Also my code is horrifying so

[raw pelican]

I'll protect my open source ip by making my code so awful that nobody can understand it.

[rain apex]

Yeah, and sometimes u look at ppl's code and decide to make your own

[raw pelican]

Not on purpose, that's just how it goes when learning.

[austere comet]

is that a challenge

[cinder karma]

Yes

[austere comet]

(as much as I would like to say I'd take on the challenge, no I wouldn't)

[cinder karma]

See! Horrifying

[devout vault]

I'd say your code isn't horrifying, just a bit complex

(Hence why for wearables I just implemented from scratch)

[rain apex]

There's a lot of bespoke wheels in there

At least it's complex in a good way

[rotund violet]

i18n is actually one of the most contentious things to PR because it's not a real update and Nexus already has a mod translation feature.

[rain apex]

Rather than "oh my god this person should be banned from python forever"

[rotund violet]

Even in corporations, typically, translations are kept separate from source code.

[cinder karma]

Chue I'm using getattr in production

Same code base does bitwise math in python in two locations

[worn remnant]

some of it i expect is that when you make a mod, that's a thing that you wanted to change or make. some others may agree with the result and use the mod, but few of them would want to make (and, critically, maintain) it themselves

[cinder karma]

Fwiw, my previous policy on translations was I liked them. However the translator wanted to do it

[rotund violet]

You like to go on about this, but you've also seen the kind of stuff that's out there.

[cinder karma]

"You want me to climb the alps and intercept a pigeon for the translation? Sure!"

[rotund violet]

I don't mind translations per se, but in the one or two instances I've gotten them from someone who didn't want to make their own mod, I had to explain that it was going to be an optional file etc. because a translation doesn't constitute a semver bump.

[cinder karma]

I also have personal code that uses exec

[rotund violet]

It just... complicates things.

[cinder karma]

(Basically dataclasses before dataclasses)

[raw pelican]

I didn't know that about translations, so does the person upload it directly to your mod or does it have to go through you first?

[cinder karma]

Am I banned from python yet

[rotund violet]

(Frankly, I don't get all the fuss about Atra or Casey code being so scary. It's not. There are thousands of mods and some of the 20-line ones are way scarier to me.)

Of course, my definition of "scary" is either "I'm not sure this is actually safe to run" and/or "you could not pay me to maintain this".

[cinder karma]

I mean, I have multithreaded code

Which is why I have strong opinions on c# threading

[rain apex]

Go directly to jail do not collect $200

[rotund violet]

Doing MT without TPL in C# is pretty weird. I haven't noticed that.

[cinder karma]

Sweet! Banned from python too

[rotund violet]

Horrible code is writing a for loop and then putting a switch-case on the loop variable.

[cinder karma]

I see you saw the game's equipment code

[fleet wren]

one of my work code bases also use getattr - for context it serializes a proprietary markup language into python-readable objects, however for some reason it serializes dictionaries into classes whose keys are the fields on the generated class

[raw pelican]

Undertale jokes.

[rotund violet]

lol, I did not, I was thinking of one or two mods. Tell me that's not really in the game?

[fleet wren]

why? why not

[rain apex]

It's ok everything is dicts in snakey land

[austere comet]

(as a.. uh.. intermediate? ...beginner? no not quite, uh, as someone somewhere along some lines at c#, I've never looked at atra code but i can say Casey code never scared me and I don't get the hype over Casey's code being scary, i regularly look at casey code to see where i've gone wrong/if i don't know how to do x thing that i know casey has done)

[rotund violet]

I should also clarify... horrible code is dumping a bunch of hardcoded items into a list, and then writing a for loop over it and switching over every item in the loop. Yes, people really do that.

[cinder karma]

Yeah, I use a toml file to dispatch functions

[cinder karma]

My pet peeve is ElementAt

There is very few good reasons to use elementat

If you use element at on a dictionary in a loop please

[rotund violet]

The only thing I find fit to make fun of in Casey code is functions like DrawOld.

searches own code, finds ElementAtOrDefault

Mmhm. I did it. I went there.

In my defense, it's ElementAtOrDefault(1), so it's not exactly going to kill performance.

[cinder karma]

The second element in a dictionary?

[rotund violet]

It's a regular list, not a dictionary.

I know I could write foo.Count > 1 ? foo[1] : null, but ElementAtOrDefault saved me 2 whole seconds during coding.

[cinder karma]

So ElementAt on a list is fine

ElementAt on a dictionary otoh

[rotund violet]

Yeah, it internally gets translated to a list indexer anyway. But VS likes to complain about it.

I don't think I've seen ElementAt used on a dictionary before.

[cinder karma]

No serious code like

for ( int I = 0; I < dict.Count; i++)

[rotund violet]

Is it something like

for (int i = 0; i < dict.Count; i++)
{
  var (key, value) = dict.ElementAt(i);
  // stuff
}

[cinder karma]

Element = dict.ElementAt(i)

Thr base game DID THAT

[rotund violet]

Haha, oh CA

Must have been in his "learning to code" phase or something.

[cinder karma]

(I'm not sure what code is CA or what is a contractor)

[devout vault]

That's in NetDictionary right? The netcode was originally a contractor I think

[rotund violet]

Didn't even think about contractors; I thought the lore was that CA did it all himself.

[devout vault]

MP was 1.2 or 1.3 I think

[cinder karma]

Yeah, whoever implemented that in net dictionary without turning their brain on lol

[devout vault]

Original release was all him

[worn remnant]

he did for the first releases

[cinder karma]

Ditto with the netlist array swap thing

[devout vault]

(I'm pretty sure CA has a CS degree?)

[rotund violet]

This isn't a comment on CA specifically, but having spent a lot of time with CS graduates, there is most definitely a "learning to code" phase after graduation and sometimes continuing for many years.

In fact, sometimes that phase involves unlearning half the CS junk.

[fleet wren]

hey, it works for C++, it should work for C# right?
(learning that unordered_map is only introduced in C++11 makes me take psychic damage)

[devout vault]

Unordered map isn't even unordered if I recall correctly

It's hash based

(I could be totally misremembering)

[raw pelican]

Agree, there's a huge difference between someone who skipped college and started coding and someone who went to college for CS in the same timeframe. I feel the hands on experience trumps the education.

[vast valve]

randomly tuned into here to see this -- really? Geeze, TIL. Modern C++ has us spoiled.

[devout vault]

I started coding when I was 12 - college was so easy (at least the CS stuff... the rest, well, I would have graduated maybe if it was easy like CS, but dysphoria-induced depression won in the end)

[rotund violet]

The great programmers are usually the ones who were coding on Apple II's when they were eight years old, or whatever the modern zoomer equivalent is. There are lots of good programmers who started in college CS, but most are less effective than the lifelong enthusiastic amateurs.

[rain apex]

I wish I started coding earlier

But my hs didn't have computer classes

[devout vault]

Completely unrelated, but I'm trying to decide what kind of xbox controller to get. Do I want the $50 one, or the one that's over double that. (I don't like the Dpad on new xbox controllers, and it looks like the latter can be swapped out...)

[rotund violet]

Just don't get a Razer. I am so sick of their defects.

[rain apex]

What kind of game r u hoping to play

[devout vault]

There's also an inbetween price that's galaxy themed:

[devout vault]

I dunno, whatever. I can't play Spelunky 2 right now since my old controller died (and I'm not playing that on keyboard)

[cinder karma]

Is that not a phone

[fleet wren]

I was writing C++ code in middle school. I hate programming I wish I got interested in a different, cooler profession
(not really, I like it. But not enough to write non-Stardew-related code in my free time)

[devout vault]

Razer makes a lot of electronics but I don't know about phones

[rotund violet]

Maybe? It's a company that makes input devices mainly for gaming.

[devout vault]

C++ was the first "real" programming language I used

(I say "real" because lua and GML are totally real, but I didn't take it seriously until I got to C++)

[rain apex]

If it's not fps things any xinput controller is fine right

[fleet wren]

interesting, it was apparently a thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Razer_Phone

[raw pelican]

I used to do basic on a Tandy200 like.... 20 years ago. Wish I remembered anything.

[rotund violet]

All controllers work fine when they're new, sure... it's a question of how quickly they develop problems.

Double presses, stick drift, just straight-up falling the hell apart...

[cinder karma]

Clearly you should just 3d print your own

[rotund violet]

Only half joking, really; there's a cottage industry of "home remedies" as long as you can solder.

[raw pelican]

Oh yeah, my first computer.

[devout vault]

I mean, I almost made my own many years ago. Think I've told you about that though

[rotund violet]

With some - not all - of these controllers, you can bring them up to better-than-new status with a few inexpensive after-market parts.

[rain apex]

I had one of these for the early 2000s aesthetics, it was nice until the dpad broke
https://asset.conrad.com/media10/isa/160267/c1/-/en/519585_LB_00_FB/image.jpg

Not recommended

[rotund violet]

Hah, I had one of those too, piece of junk

[rain apex]

But it's very good shape

[cinder karma]

I've never owned a controller in my life

And I'm sure not going to start now

[fleet wren]

skip the intermediate step and build yourself a fightstick

[rain apex]

When will u get into the custom gamecube controller for melee business

[worn remnant]

this is where the real sickos are /lh

[devout vault]

I mean... a custom xbox controller but gamecube layout was the one I was working on at one point 😅

I should do it again for fun

[rotund violet]

I've spent a lot more time in toto playing with mouse and keyboard controls but have gotten to the point where I just won't touch 99% of games without controller support. It's an ergonomics thing. If you're in the "why does everything hurt" stage, you'll get there too.

[devout vault]

Atra doesn't play things though, atra knits

[cinder karma]

I feel like some of y'all are too young for early 2000s aesthetics

[rain apex]

I'm -2 years old

[rotund violet]

Of course, that is provided he actually plays something again, yes.

(and as I said earlier, I'm pretty sure I'm older than you)

[cinder karma]

Seriosly I don't get it I wasn't even running that fast this week

Usually I know exactly what I did (aka bothered to strength training for once in a blue moon.)

[rotund violet]

The strength training more than once in a blue moon is mainly how you prevent it.

Most causes of various soreness for me are "not enough time in the gym". It tracks pretty consistently.

[cinder karma]

(I run six days a week.)

[fleet wren]

side note speaking of controllers but I can confidently say I own one of the world's rarest controllers, no more will be ever made

(No I wasn't a ||Stadia subscriber||, I got this during a clearance giveaway)

(I don't even use it, I just keep it around like the Predator keeping the skulls of its previous prey)

[sand frost]

What is it?

[fleet wren]

the controller of this thing: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Google_Stadia#Controller

[sonic mirage]

Google enabled the Bluetooth on those after they shut things down so that they're not e-waste, just FYI

[fleet wren]

yeah I did, my PS4 controller is still the favored child though

[cinder karma]

c++ didn't get a hashmap until 2011?

[fleet wren]

nooope

[devout vault]

If I remember correctly std::map is a red-black tree (whatever that is)

[cinder karma]

Awww

That is a spectacularly undescriptive docs page

(I watched a talk by these folks once: https://github.com/abseil/abseil-cpp/blob/master/absl/container/flat_hash_map.h)

[rain apex]

i thought rb tree was just for hash collision

[cinder karma]

Wrll it has the performance of a rb tree

Hmm

Docs say "usually an rb tree" but doesn't commit to it

https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/container/map

[rain apex]

looks like libstdc++ is use rb tree https://gcc.gnu.org/onlinedocs/gcc-4.6.2/libstdc++/api/a01056_source.html

and libc++ is some kind of tree but i dont feel smart enough to figure out what https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/blob/main/libcxx/include/map

[cinder karma]

(I gave kt the old college try but also I can't even find the insert function because I'm on mobile)

AHA!

https://github.com/llvm/llvm-project/blob/56905dab7da50bccfcceaeb496b206ff476127e1/libcxx/include/__tree#L1766

I will say the bet is likely that rb tree.

it's a binary tree with balancing. rb is likely

[cinder karma]

Python's dictionary hassss to be indexer pointing to a linked list

It makes sense now

Sorry

For a long time it's bothered me that the python dictionary somehow managed to remember insertion order

[safe dragon]

that's odd

apparently since python 3.6

looks like a python map is basically two array in a trench coat

the first array contains the values in order and the second array holds the indices for where to find the value

[cinder karma]

(The c# dictionary is two arrays in a trench coat)

The dense representation

[safe dragon]

we are all two arrays in a trench coat

[cinder karma]

The python one, I knew it could deal with deletions somehow without losing the order

(Which the c# one can't.)

So I was like

How.

[safe dragon]

it replaces the index with a dummy value

and replaces the value with null

apparently

[cinder karma]

Would that make a dictionary increase in memory footprint indefinitely

[safe dragon]

I think so

ah it then resizes the array when you insert something again

[cinder karma]

...huh

[safe dragon]

clearing the dummy values

[cinder karma]

...huh.......

[safe dragon]

I don't question the programming language overlords

[cinder karma]

https://github.com/python/cpython/blob/b52de7e02dba9e1f176d6d978d782fbd0509311e/Objects/dictobject.c#L94

[safe dragon]

that's a lot of lines of code for a dictionary

[primal shore]

Heya guys — my bf & I want to take a coding class, he wants it to add onto his resume for fintech product management positions, any advice on which language to try and learn first?

[hollow marsh]

you could always go for that one that was ancient when the stars were young, COBOL.
it's still used for a lot of critical businesses like banks, though as a 60+ year old language, there's equal movements to replace it or update it, though getting businesses and governments to change like that is... an undertaking

[safe dragon]

python, Java, c++... it kinda depends what part of fintech he'd be dealing with

C# isn't uncommon either

[primal shore]

Oh that I’m not sure about

[primal shore]

Kinda wanna do this myself for stardew modding lol

But I heard it’s not easy for a first timer

[safe dragon]

it was my first language

was fine tbh

I didn't really have any major extra hurdles I feel like

I didn't understand many parts of C# but I don't think I would've done any better if my first language had been python or something

the only real downside I experienced was that I had no idea how to use a terminal even though I'd been programming for a few years cause visual studio does it all for you

[primal shore]

Hmmm interesting then.. thanks, any other tips I wouldn’t find in yellow book?

[safe dragon]

no idea what yellow book is

[primal shore]

I think there’s a command

!yellowbook

[indigo mist]

A good book for learning c# is https://www.robmiles.com/c-yellow-book

To use this command, type !yellowbook.

[safe dragon]

o

dang modders

[primal shore]

[safe dragon]

General advice I suppose would be to not worry too much about whether you're doing something the "right" way and only on whether it works. Only once you can write stuff that works should you start caring about whether it can be done better

that's a common one I've seen people get stuck on

people too worried about writing "bad" code

[primal shore]

Ooo thanks. That’s good to know

My problem is I’m a perfectionist (no pun intended lol), so I make sure I have no errors in VS

[safe dragon]

tackling any warning would be good

used too many projects with thousands of warnings everyone has hidden

[primal shore]

I can’t do it

I need to know there won’t be a problem LOL

[safe dragon]

in that case learn haskell instead

👍

[primal shore]

Thanks

[cinder karma]

I'm wrong here, it just marks that entry in the table null until next resize

[safe dragon]

yes

[cinder karma]

It's not next insert though

But the normal next resize

[rain apex]

I was read about minecraft modding and specifically mixins which I understand to be analogous to harmony

Don't quite understand how it resolves multiple mixins, and whether it has a transpiler analog

[cinder karma]

Is it possible to use python to automatically apply sensitivity labels to excel documents

....asked chatgpt

Oh god

Why are there https requests involved, chatgpt

I'm not sure if I'm more concerned if chatgpt is right or wrong

[safe dragon]

lmao

[rain apex]

Maybe there's some pytorch model for that

[rotund violet]

Anyone else driven mad by the fact that you can't hot-reload any changes to a generic type? It seems so arbitrary.

[fleet wren]

seems like it's a thing in .NET 8?
https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/hot-reload-generics/

[safe dragon]

C# hot reloading is so unreliable that often I forget it even exists and just rebuild the project

[raw pelican]

you guys have been hot reloading? I always rebuild the project.

Must be very annoying for my steam friends to see "Teoshen is playing stardew valley" every five minutes.

[fleet wren]

#justlinuxthings

[devout vault]

Love hot reloading, especially when doing UI stuff

[safe dragon]

when it actually functions it's very nice

[austere comet]

i could theoretically use hot reloading, however i am not gonna wait for VS to load up my game with 400 mods in the first place, so build and run through stardrop it is for me

[raw pelican]

I do my testing with bare minimum, so only 10 or so.

[devout vault]

You can set up a separate game instance to use for development than you use for playing. (Let me know if you want to know how, I can either DM you or move to #making-mods-general )

There's even a way to have multiple instances if you launch VS through a bat file

[rain apex]

Say are there hot reload type things in other compiled languages?

[safe dragon]

yeah

[devout vault]

Even C++ has it I think (with VS)

[safe dragon]

elixir has flawless hot reload as far as I've ever been able to tell

[devout vault]

(Though C++ is somewhat limited compared to C#)

[safe dragon]

rust has semi okay hot reload but it's not there yet

for elixir I've never noticed it having issues hot reloading anything at all

I suppose a language purpose built to be able to recover from failure states would be a good fit for hot reloading

[raw pelican]

huh all I did was make a backup of my regular mod folder, then clear it out.

[rain apex]

It'd be nice if I could just reload particular .so that were rebuilt

[rotund violet]

I was going to say WPF but that's the same compiled language. And I guess languages like TypeScript don't really count, they're more "transpiled" than "compiled".

Anything dealing with WASM as an intermediary can generally do it to some degree, but depends on the tooling.

Java also has it (they call it hot swap).

[candid pilot]

i always build idk how to hot reload

[candid pilot]

i run it through stardrop with a development mod profile and usually i don't have steam open. so my steam friends are spared

(and im on linux so hot reloading might be more complicated)

[raw pelican]

I do run it through stardrop, I wonder if that skips the steam part.

[candid pilot]

probably only if you don't keep steam open

[rain apex]

if u see SteamAPI_Init steam would knows about this

[austere comet]

that's dangerously close to me being efficient, that doesn't seem like me at all

[safe dragon]

work hard not smart

[cinder karma]

Yes.

Oh you fucking change the whitespace in a generic class?

Jail for you

Jail forever

[safe dragon]

banned from c#

[rotund violet]

Imagine hiring someone to paint a fence - which, absolutely, requires advance preparation, knowing the type of material to be painted, how to mix the colors, whether it needs primer, etc.
They come. They paint. It's going OK for a while.
Then you tell them, "hey, not bad but you missed a little spot over there."
"You asshole, making changes at the last minute, now I have to start the whole job over again."

(like, why? fucking, why? just patch that spot.)

[cinder karma]

Lol

Have you been listening in to our meetings with $vendor

[rotund violet]

I surely have not, but all big companies and their $vendors are pretty much the same.

[worn remnant]

i would like to have hot reload. i wonder what the incantation is to do it (surely the IDE is doing something to accomplish it)
what i have now is that if the game is running and i rebuild, it crashes as soon as the game interacts with my now-changed dll

so, something is happening i guess

[rotund violet]

Add more RAM.

[sand frost]

hot reload is something that sounds nice but too newfangled for me

(I think it doesn't work on macs or something)

(but also sometimes I'm a luddite)

Good ol relaunch the game 10 million times has always worked for me!

[worn remnant]

thank you for your input, but i don't think that's the problem

              total        used        free      shared  buff/cache   available
Mem:          31868        3208       19636         611        9023       27583
Swap:          8191           0        8191```

[rotund violet]

Sorry, guess I forgot the "/s".

Next time I will add a 🙃

[cinder karma]

Ah. Django

Blast from the past

Hey chat, what is your choice for a responsive Javascript grapher

[rain apex]

i only used chart.js before

[cinder karma]

Chart.js good for line graphs?

Ahhh! That is the one I found

[rotund violet]

Responsive meaning performant, or for responsive UI?

[rain apex]

D3.js very fun though

https://d3js.org/d3-force

[cinder karma]

Second!

This is internal use only

We don't need it to scale

[rain apex]

but i also just

[cinder karma]

We also don't need to support random ass browsers

[rain apex]

wrote v-for svg to draw my own graphs

[cinder karma]

Firefox is good

[rain apex]

its potato/5

[rotund violet]

I was going to point out D3 for performance, it is hard to use though. Google charts are surprisingly not bad.

[rain apex]

theres various npm packages that r use D3 in the back

with simpler api

depends on if you can find the exact graph u want tho

[cinder karma]

Thank you!!!!!

[rain apex]

https://fxtwitter.com/phoronix/status/1833083470928650623 what does this mean

did this software timetravel back 2 years

[rotund violet]

https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/26

Same as writing for rust-unstable, kinda?

[cinder karma]

No, chue

We're on 2p26 now

Sorrru

Forgpt to tell you

glitches out

[rotund violet]

wat

[rain apex]

wow cpp linalg

[fleet wren]

I wonder if this is the release that would finally fix that annoying bug where I'd randomly focus on an XWayland window on a different workspace
(then again, serves me right for using an NV*DIA graphics card. Dunno if that's actually the cause, but I'm blaming it anyway)

[safe dragon]

my hyprland environment hasn't been used in a few weeks

[thin estuary]

i'm coming here in hopes of finding someone smarter or someone who actually happened upon and solved this particular issue. i'm working on Nickel, a mod loader for Cobalt Core. we have a very similar ModBuildConfig NuGet package to the one SMAPI has. one of our modders is using a Linux machine, and they're having this warning (and our custom analyzers don't seem to be working for them).
now, i've noticed the version it complains about corresponds to what i have in my package's csproj here (it used to complain about a newer version, and then i've downgraded this verson and pushed a new package, and now that's what they get): https://github.com/Shockah/Nickel/blob/master/ModBuildConfig.Analyzer/ModBuildConfig.Analyzer.csproj#L13
of course it's an issue on that modder's side, but they believe they have a pretty standard setup with .NET 8 installed, whatever way you install that on their particular Linux distribution (if that matters, i can ask what distro they're using)

[safe dragon]

running nuget restore doesn't work?

[thin estuary]

i believe we've been trying that like months ago, and it didn't help at all

but i'll ask them again

[cinder karma]

What IDE do they use

[thin estuary]

...maybe i'll actually get them to join this server temporarily

VS Code

[safe dragon]

[thin estuary]

and i believe they just build from their terminal

with dotnet build

[safe dragon]

I've entered a weird world of C# with this server that isn't married to visual studio

[cinder karma]

VSC version?

Linux distribution too

[safe dragon]

nuget packages aren't managed by the distro's package manager so I feel like it shouldn't affect things

[thin estuary]

"Kernel is 6.9.12-3"

[cinder karma]

At work I semi regularly have to delete the VSCode cache files

And for VS I used to have to semi regularly remove wrong versions of nugetd

[thin estuary]

my main question is, where does the "currently running version" here come from

[rain apex]

Does it complain if they install the nuget through dotnet instead of vscode

[worn remnant]

from the text, it seems to be from their dotnet executable itself (or whatever other executable, if applicable, runs when you invoke dotnet build)

[nocturne obsidian]

I have arrived

I have a vague memory of messing around with dotnet before because the stuff from the package manager was outdated somehow

But considering I'm not using ~/.dotnet/dotnet to build, that's probably fixed?

[thin estuary]

so any ideas how to get that... updated? changed?

[rain apex]

there is manual script to install runtime/sdk
https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/tools/dotnet-install-script

[nocturne obsidian]

Seems familiar. I'll try that

Hm. I ran the script, but the warning still shows up

Here's dotnet --info

Not sure if it's outdated

[rain apex]

it is by a few patch versions (i have 8.0.401), but kinda doubt that would make difference

[rotund violet]

The C# compiler version is not the same as the .NET version, it's related very specifically to Visual Studio: https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/visualstudio/extensibility/roslyn-version-support?view=vs-2022

When using dotnet it uses the latest installed SDK version. You need to udpate your SDK.

Going by https://learn.microsoft.com/en-us/dotnet/core/porting/versioning-sdk-msbuild-vs, version 8.0.107 is associated with VS/MSBuild 17.8 which is close to a year old and is in fact 4.8.0, not 4.9.2.

There's a possible workaround involving adding global.json to the project if you want to actually target an earlier version of the compiler. (Details: https://stackoverflow.com/a/76741003/38360). But I don't know what side effects that could have; better to just update the installed SDK.

(You'll want to be on SDK 8.0.2xx or newer)

[nocturne obsidian]

Alright I'll try that

[nocturne obsidian]

Aight so my package manager is installing stuff in ~/.dotnet, while my dotnet command and script installs are going for /usr/share/dotnet

Now I just gotta figure out how to switch over

[rain apex]

you can use AUR on manjaro right

[nocturne obsidian]

Yeah

[safe dragon]

odd

[nocturne obsidian]

Also it may be the other way around?

But it's weird

[rain apex]

https://aur.archlinux.org/packages/dotnet-host-bin

[safe dragon]

I'm on arch and it's installing to /usr/share/dotnet

[nocturne obsidian]

Cause the pacman package says it's dotnet 8.0.7, but when I check the file there it's 8.0.1

[rain apex]

use this then, its easier to deal with different sdk through AUR

if you want to use the manually script then you need to put --install-dir /usr/share/dotnet

[safe dragon]

never mind. The plot thickens... I also have two version of dotnet

[nocturne obsidian]

What does this do, exactly? It doesn't seem like the sdk

[rain apex]

its the dotnet tool, and the latest version of the runtime + sdk

[nocturne obsidian]

Huh alright

[rain apex]

the idea is that you first install that

then whatever not latest net you happen to need (for example 6 for sdv modding)

[safe dragon]

for some reason I have both the .net 9 preview and .net 8 installed

the dotnet preview lives in usr/share and the regular one lives in .dotnet

alright uninstalling the preview fixed my double dotnet install 🙏

[nocturne obsidian]

This is quite confusing

[safe dragon]

I just had two

[nocturne obsidian]

In separate folders?

[safe dragon]

yeah

the preview lived in usr/ and the regular one in .dotnet

[nocturne obsidian]

I believe used to use ~/.dotnet/dotnet for my commands, then switched to just dotnet
Now I gotta actually figure out how this works

[safe dragon]

what do you get when you call pacman -Qe | grep 'dotnet'

maybe you also have multiple installs

[nocturne obsidian]

dotnet --info is now giving me 8.0.8 dotnet but 8.0.1 sdk

I have no idea how I'm supposed to update the sdk, nothing seems to work

[rain apex]

did you uninstall existing dotnet before doing the AUR stuff

[nocturne obsidian]

Nope

[rain apex]

try doin that i guess, and turning it off and on

[nocturne obsidian]

Aha! After some now-informed research I have found the --install-dir parameter for dotnet-install.sh

And I was able to install the latest skd in the actual folder where I need it

The issue is solved now

Thanks for the help

[rain apex]

oh yea i should have been more clear back here oops

glad it work

[nocturne obsidian]

Yeah I skipped over that oopsie

[thin estuary]

niceee

[pliant snow]

You can also see which package owns a command with pacman -Qo $(which dotnet) although it looks like its solved

[cinder karma]

How do I get ruff to autosplit too long lines but avoid unsplitting lines unless the resulting line is actually quite short

In other words

Under 80 char: ruff pls unsplit

Between 80-120: ruff pls leave alonr

Above 120: ruff pls split

[safe dragon]

I have never heard of ruff in my life so I cannot help you

nor have I ever had to split/unsplit lines through a script before

huh

ruff is a linter

oh and a code formatter

I've never really wanted a formatter to unsplit lines of code before

[pliant snow]

Theres probably a ruff config file you can mess with. Ive heard of it but also never used it

[safe dragon]

it has the standard setting of line-length but nothing else that I can find

[pliant snow]

Is line-length 120 not what you need?

[safe dragon]

it doesn't merge lines under 80 characters maybe idk

idk why a formatter would ever merge lines

well actually

maybe for like a fluent api type thing

[cinder karma]

It's merging lines and I would like it to stop

[rain apex]

What if you just use some other linter like black

[safe dragon]

from what I can find ruff prides itself on 99% compatibility with black

so i'd assume the problem is in both or neither

If you’re paid by the lines of code you write, you can pass --line-length with a lower number.

🙏

[cinder karma]

Tl;dr I have

if(
     function_call(a)
     and not function_call(b)
):```

And it's right on the boundary

[safe dragon]

easy, give the functions longer names

Black ignores previous formatting and applies uniform horizontal and vertical whitespace to your code.

guess you can't really guide it in any way by your original formatting

idk if there actually an answer other than longer function names...

if you really want that formatting despite apparently being fairly short

just add like not not not not not

that should do the trick

[rain apex]

any(map(function_call, (a, b))

[cinder karma]

The actual code is a bunch of different functions lol

[cinder karma]

Combinatorix is fun in production code, eh?

[safe dragon]

luckily I don't know what that means

[cinder karma]

The code is n^2

[safe dragon]

can be fine

[cinder karma]

N=8

But the constant factor is slow

Therefore

[safe dragon]

not that bad

[cinder karma]

Total time is 39 minutes

N^2 is non negotiable

N is

[safe dragon]

that's one atrocious runtime for 1 cycle

[cinder karma]

Yup

Turns out the real world takes time lol

I can do some things about the constant factor but like

The real world takes time. My electrons only move so fast

[rotund violet]

Better than 2^n, right

[safe dragon]

even for n = 8 that is true

4 times faster according to napkin math

[safe dragon]

gotta get yourself some faster electrons

[rotund violet]

Oh, I was being rhetorical. But I have actually seen O(2^n). Trying to remember where, I think it was a bin packing problem.

[safe dragon]

oh yeah I knew it was rhetorical

[rotund violet]

It's very very very slow unless N is very very very small.

Mind you, I guess it is not as bad as the O(N!) we were discussing the other day

[cinder karma]

I think I have O(3^n) somewhere around here

But it's fine

N is never more than 2

[rotund violet]

All algorithms are equally fast for small N. (not really, but close enough)

[safe dragon]

time complexity is practically irrelevant for very small numbers of n yeah

if it doesn't need to scale

[rotund violet]

Maybe if you somehow managed to write something that was like: O(N^(2^(N^2))) or something

Even that would be OK for N = 2 although it starts to look ugly for 3+

[devout vault]

Is that a challenge?

[rotund violet]

lol, if you can find a way to solve a practical problem with that type of complexity curve, then yes, it's a challenge.

[cinder karma]

(In this case is a "test all possible combinations")

So the complexity is inherent to the problem

[rotund violet]

Sounds like you need a quantum computer.

[safe dragon]

Combinatorial explosions!
explosions are always exciting

most of the code I deal with doesn't really go beyond o(n) but I fear to even find out how many n+1 problems are in our APIs that use entity framework

[rotund violet]

I think I've run into combinatorial explosions of requirements more often than combinatorial explosions of code. Like, the requirements dictate entirely separate logic depending on the interaction of 4 variables and I really don't want to write 24 implementations.

And oh yeah, Entity Framework and its predecessor Linq2SQL were magnets for N+1 problems.

It was just so easy to write them, and whatever was going on underneath was totally opaque unless you fired up the profiler.

[cinder karma]

God

Linq is great but it is so easy to write slow code in it

[safe dragon]

most ORMs try really hard to guide you away from N+1 queries. EF practically begs for you to make them

[rotund violet]

I've swung back and forth between trying to get ORMs to work nicely and giving up on them totally. Most recently in the giving-up phase.

They're nice when they work, yeah, but it never takes long to start running into edge cases.

[safe dragon]

I'm squarely in the camp of "just let me write some damn sql" camp nowadays

[rotund violet]

Exactly. Maybe an "ORM" that would just let me do a simple mapping of a result set to a model, sans relationships and any of that crap.

Actually I think we have that already (IIRC it's what AutoMapper does/did)

[safe dragon]

sqlx in rust is my favorite of any I've used. You just write regular sql but can opt into compile time query validation where it will query a configured database to verify the validity of the query and return errors

it's not an orm

I just like it

mappers... also a place where I've seen my fair share of n+1

I suppose it's the same n+1

my next employer uses oracle db... no idea what options are even out there with that

I've never seen any library I've used support oracle db

[tender heath]

I found a spill on the floor at my job. Do you see him? 😭🤣

[safe dragon]

my discontent with blazor continues

I should look at their list of actually solved issues to find out what kind of shit they aren't constantly moving to future milestones

nah the closed issues annoy me just as much

[pliant snow]

rip

[safe dragon]

I think I have a decent design in my head to work around the 2700 footguns blazor throws at you though...

praying they solve some by .NET 10 instead of just adding more...

it's pretty telling when almost all component frameworks for blazor don't support the now default template

even after almost a year of it having been around

the only one I've found that does work with it essentially decided to not use C# interactivity at all and just implemented all its components with javascript

[cinder karma]

Lol

Isn't that defeating the purpose

[safe dragon]

absolutely

[candid pilot]

you can do overloading in python but it's weird

ignore bad/unfinished code this is proof of concept for me

[cinder karma]

Why

Have you not seen singledispatch

https://docs.python.org/3/library/functools.html#functools.singledispatch

[candid pilot]

i haven't. thank you

[rain apex]

what will u use it for

[candid pilot]

i just wanted to try it 😭

[candid pilot]

theres also typing.overload

i knew it prob already existed when making it but i figured it would be fun to make smth myself idk

[rotund violet]

"typing.overload" sounds like a successor to Mavis Beacon Teaches Typing.

[cinder karma]

(typing.overload is an insane hack that only makes sense in python's typing system.)

It's, hilariously, also not proper overloads

[cinder karma]

Looking at singledispatch, it appears to be a straightforward lookup table and doesn't even try to handle inheritance

Probably wise tbh

Python inheritance is Fun TM

[safe dragon]

inheritance in general is Fun

[cinder karma]

Yes, but python has multiple inheritance

Which is double the fun.

[safe dragon]

oh no

don't do that

[cinder karma]

Basically, sealed tells the compiler that no class should be able to derive from this class. I tend to do it by default. It also enables some jit optimizations.

[hoary oasis]

Interesting, I guess the optimizations are good, can't imagine why you'd bother for a SDV mod otherwise lol

[cinder karma]

(I consider it good practice:

unless a class was specifically designed to be inherited from, in which case you have thought about it while you were writing it, something in the middle usually becomes messy + harder to maintain.)

[safe dragon]

I always forget that they added the sealed keyword

didn't know it helped the JIT

I thought it was just a handy word to convey your intentions

[cinder karma]

You know how it goes

One day it's a language feature

The next there are optimizations built around it

[pliant snow]

Oh boy, breaking pacman changes

[safe dragon]

the change: you can no longer install packages

what did they do

[fleet wren]

no more installing, we build like real Gentooers

[rain apex]

Wow what exploded in pacman

[cinder karma]

Oh no, ghosts?

[pliant snow]

Something about changing which user owns downloaded packages, which can mess with local repos

And they updated some library, so paru and yay are broken

[crystal wren]

Oh, yeah, yay is outright dead for me right now.

[safe dragon]

important news

the word regex has been added to the official scrabble word list

[supple ether]

Huh, weird

[rotund violet]

I'd say multiple inheritance is n-squared the fun.

[cinder karma]

I really do love python

But I love it because of its bullshit

Not despite it's bullshit

Also at least it isn't perl

[safe dragon]

you just enjoy the bullshit

I respect it

[pliant snow]

I made 2048 in godot just to get back into the hang of it

I'm quite fond of godot

[safe dragon]

your yearly attempt at getting into godot

they changed how tweening worked within that time I think

[cinder karma]

What is tweening

The art of being between 10 and 13?

[dusky gust]

it's short for "inbetweening"

at its simplest it would be interpolation

[pliant snow]

No it was changed before this. I completed a little game last fall in it and it was the same as now

[safe dragon]

was 4.0 released that long ago already

[pliant snow]

about a year i think

its on 4.3 now

[safe dragon]

gimp still hasn't hit 3

[pliant snow]

it wont

[safe dragon]

the only reason fedora still ships python2 by default

gimp

[pliant snow]

somehow arch got away without it

I do need to branch out and try more godot nodes out

I use pretty much the same 5 all the time lol

[safe dragon]

aren't there like 150

[pliant snow]

probably

[gaunt wadi]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Radio_button#Etymology

Neat

[crystal wren]

...oh, well now I feel old. I thought this was an obvious thing.

[raw pelican]

Is this an age thing or just a "what's your job" thing? I knew of radio buttons as a kid with windows 95 stuff, and then again doing wordpress forms and oracle flexfields.

[hardy jewel]

Cat

[safe dragon]

pretty sure cat means the etymology specifically

I'm younger than cat though and have used a physical radio

[pliant snow]

Its still a weird name, ive always thought they look nothing like real radio buttons

[safe dragon]

it's about the function not how they look

I curse all websites and ui designers who make radio buttons look like checkmarks though causing you to have to double check whether it's multiselect or not

[cinder karma]

I barely overlapped with FM radio and I agree irl buttons do not look like that

(We are going to quickly get into the generation where no one recognizes where the save and folder icons come from.)

[pliant snow]

I'm overlapping with FM radio right now 😔

[safe dragon]

causing interference

[pliant snow]

i even still have a radio set up in my office, although i rarely use it

[cinder karma]

Technically FM radio still exists and is in my car i just....don't use it

[safe dragon]

I feel like a lot of designers are dropping the save icon already

maybe not a lot actually

[raw pelican]

What icon do they change it to.

Concerning radio buttons, I did feel a little old seeing the exact model of clock radio I had as a kid in a thrift store. Physical tuner, 9v battery backup... Fond memories of a 13 year old me listening to Coast to Coast AM at midnight wondering why the government doesn't do something about all the aliens and ghosts wreaking havoc on the country.

[pliant snow]

lol Coast to Coast AM

[rotund violet]

I assure you, we are already in that generation. Not "we" specifically, but the average zoomer has never seen a floppy disk.

I don't think it's a bad thing that the icon is archaic, given that the whole idea of explicit saving is rather archaic. It's far nicer to use software that "saves" automatically and has infinite or near-infinite undo.

[rain apex]

wait is that where we are heading

[rotund violet]

I can't predict that all software is going to become like that, because it's harder to do and developers (and/or their employers) are lazy (and/or cheap). But it's definitely become a lot more common now that there's no technical barrier in terms of memory or disk space for an event log.

[safe dragon]

for any software where saving is a trivial quick process it's been moving that way for quite a while

[rotund violet]

Also, skeuomorphic UI has a history of being terrible and it's a good thing that radio buttons don't look like actual buttons on actual radios.

Makes me think of Apple's bad old days circa 2001-2005.

[rain apex]

yea ig i have ctrl s in muscle memory at this point so it wouldnt really make diff if software did just save every 10s for me

[safe dragon]

same

[rain apex]

might even avoid some "ah shit i forgot to save before git pull"

[rotund violet]

Google Docs actually has a placebo save because they know people reflexively press Ctrl-S. At least I think it's GDocs.

[safe dragon]

or :wa for me which is ingrained so deeply into me that I still keep typing it when I use regular editors

I also keep hitting escape to go back to normal mode in editors

[rotund violet]

:wq for me since any time I open vim it's usually a one-shot deal.

[safe dragon]

I use vim keybinds for any code editor I use

[raw pelican]

I think it's a reflex now to ctrl-s every 15 seconds when writing, I don't even think about it anymore.

[safe dragon]

vim itself is also just a quick edit and close thing for me

that feeling when you keep accidentally trying to save a whole web page with ctrl s

[rotund violet]

That's definitely happened once or twice.

Also, reflexively hitting F12 when some random app is bugging out.

[safe dragon]

first ctrl f5

[rain apex]

it works sometimes right

if its electron

[safe dragon]

back when discord didn't block access to it

[rotund violet]

I love when VS is being stubborn about picking up external changes so I hit F5 to refresh and... wait, that's not what I wanted at all.

[safe dragon]

try using blazor and having to restart visual studio completely cause you moved a file (through its own solution explorer)

[rotund violet]

try using blazor

Nope.

[safe dragon]

[rotund violet]

But I sympathize. I've had to use far worse for work.

[safe dragon]

me too

blazor annoys me in the context of other modern web frameworks but I'll take it every day over ASP.NET WebForms or the older razor pages

and over WinForms

or writing anything with nothing but jquery...

[rotund violet]

(or classic ASP... or classic Perl)

[gaunt wadi]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Floppy_disk

Floppy disks were so common in late 20th-century culture that many electronic and software programs continue to use save icons that look like floppy disks well into the 21st century, as a form of skeuomorphic design.

[rotund violet]

cgi-bin

[gaunt wadi]

Neat

[safe dragon]

thanks cat

[raw pelican]

I remember playing wheel of fortune on ms-dos on a tandy 1000, but I don't remember if it was on a 5 or a 3 inch floppy.

[rotund violet]

8" were the best.

[safe dragon]

damn I have incredible news

the next version of blazor is actually going to fix 1 problem I'm having

unprecedented

a big problem with blazor webassembly has always been dealing with the browser caching files

in .NET 9 they're finally going to start

1. compressing the static assets
2. fingerpinting versions of files so the browser knows not to reuse a cached version

[cinder karma]

When were 8 in floppies a thing

[pliant snow]

in WarGames

[cinder karma]

I have never seen an 8in floppy in mh life

[pliant snow]

I still own a single floppy I think

[safe dragon]

I definitely don't

[rotund violet]

In the 1970s, but you could still find them around in the 1980s.

[pliant snow]

a 5 1/4" disc for an Apple II

[safe dragon]

there's an apple 2 in my mom's garage

[pliant snow]

there's one in my closet

which may or may not be your mom's garage

[safe dragon]

that's a big closet

[rotund violet]

Nice. Welcome to 2012, Microsoft.

[cinder karma]

I'll have to go ask Dad if he's ever used a 8in floppy

[leaden marsh]

I still own a floppy but not an 8"

[rotund violet]

I don't own any 8" floppy disks, that I know of. I've seen them, though.

[safe dragon]

it was only really a major issue with the wasm builds because they use some funky service worker caching thing but still it's crazy blazor didn't just launch with this

[rotund violet]

As for other form factors, I'm sure there are plenty sitting in various boxes in the garage that have survived 4 moves already.

[pliant snow]

how often do people still use any discs

[rotund violet]

(That's what in every old moving box, as far as I know. Spiders and floppy disks.)

[safe dragon]

I don't have a disc drive

which might answer that question

[pliant snow]

smh

[rotund violet]

Are we still talking about floppies or CDs now?

[pliant snow]

whichever

[leaden marsh]

I don't have a disc drive on my laptop, but i have an external drive for blu ray

[rotund violet]

It's different with CDs because there is a lot of music in people's old CD collections that you can't just pull off iTunes or whatever.

I mean, you can rip it once and be done with it. But you still need a drive to rip it with.

[leaden marsh]

One of those non-region locked ones which allow for ripping

[rotund violet]

Yeah, pretty much exactly the setup I have.

USB connection, cost very little, takes up very little space, and even if I only use it once every year or two, there's no downside to keeping it around.

And every so often I might get the nostalgic urge to play one of those ancient CD games.

[pliant snow]

I have a 4K bluray drive in my PC I use every so often

and I still use my minidisc deck every so often lol

[rotund violet]

Minidiscs, haha... would you believe I have one of those too, a portable one. But I haven't touched in many years.

I'm not a hoarder but some part of me just refuses to get rid of it.

[pliant snow]

i just think they're neat

[rotund violet]

I think I got mine in literally the same year the iPods came out, or maybe a year or two earlier, so it was almost immediately obsolete and out of fashion.

[pliant snow]

its retro and hip again now, maybe

[safe dragon]

it's hip to be retro

[pliant snow]

mine is still part of my thrift store hi-fi

the finest audio equipment other people didn't want

[safe dragon]

a highly contested category of audio equipment

[gaunt wadi]

I last had a disk drive ~10 years ago, or two pc upgrades ago

✨Future✨

[pliant snow]

you can come use mine if you need to

[gaunt wadi]

Hell yeah

Movie night

[pliant snow]

how else will you rip your 4K films

i mean uh

legally... back up

actually i paid for them i will do what i want

Big Bluray won't boss me around

[safe dragon]

that's what you think

[leaden marsh]

if it wasn't so hard to just play the blu-ray on my pc without even more software, I wouldn't have... legally backed it up

[safe dragon]

legally backed it up hosted through a jellyfin instance

[leaden marsh]

i'd gladly just use 1 blu-ray disk instead of the ~20 GB of disk space each one is taking up rn

I should probably get another external drive at this point lol

[sly harbor]

so this is the channel i have hidden

[safe dragon]

the best channel

[leaden marsh]

less off-topic about programming, and more, we're programmers talking about anything

[safe dragon]

which happens to usually be tech related cause that's the way we are

[rotund violet]

Except for the nominal topic of the server, which off-topic.

[leaden marsh]

True!

[safe dragon]

mentioning mods is explicitly banned

[rotund violet]

gasp you just mentioned it by mentioning mentioning it!

You are only allowed to refer to it in oblique terms.

[safe dragon]

oh no

[leaden marsh]

uh oh

[rain apex]

yea no talk of farming sim third party plugins here

[safe dragon]

no custom creations

[cinder karma]

Hi DH!

Long time no see

[gaunt wadi]

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Landline

Neat

[safe dragon]

my mom still has a landline connection to this day

[sonic mirage]

I think the last landline I had was in my dorm room

Also, I've never equated radio buttons to the radio station-changing buttons in a car and I A) do web development and B) enjoy the satisfactory cha-chunk of buttons in older cars where a whole mechanism had to move to unselect all other buttons when you selected a new one

The satisfaction of car radio buttons has an inverse relationship to the age of the vehicle

Lastly, I have a box of multi-colored floppies I've been saving to decorate something retro with

..someday

[sand frost]

I have a landline in my office maybe, idk it's a fixed telephone

which plugs into the wall

[leaden marsh]

i read landmine

[sonic mirage]

Most "landlines" these days are just VOIP, so if the internet goes out they do, too

[rain apex]

Some ppl have landline internet right

Not dial up but dsl

[sonic mirage]

DSL and dial-up use the phone line

[safe dragon]

dsl is still pretty common here

[rain apex]

Oh are phoneline and landline different

[sand frost]

I guess it's voip, idk because I haven't used it at all

[safe dragon]

adsl still goes up to like 100 mbps here though so it's not exactly the old telephone lines

[sonic mirage]

Interesting, here DSL fell way behind cable-based internet in speeds and not many use it that I know of

[leaden marsh]

wait did i miss something about why the landline wiki page was linked here

[safe dragon]

adsl is mostly disappearing here now cause of fiber optic cable

cat has been sharing things pretending he has never heard of em

smh

[leaden marsh]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WebAssembly

neat

[fleet wren]

holy shit TIL this exists:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States

[safe dragon]

dam

[leaden marsh]

woah

[safe dragon]

it's like the EU but different

[leaden marsh]

states? like city states?

[fleet wren]

they are 50 countries but they're one???

[rain apex]

I liked that better when it was colonies \s

[sonic mirage]

There's a guy I watch on YT that is building a voxel game engine that compiles to WASM, Douglas Dwyer

[leaden marsh]

oh yeah!

i've seen his work a lot on voxel game dev

[sonic mirage]

He switched it back to doing path-traced lighting and it's kinda nuts it can run in the browser

[leaden marsh]

very impressive stuff on a technical level, I'm excited to see what the actual gameplay is like though

browsers are very capable in this day and age

lots of PT shadertoys at this point

and voxel PT is way faster bc of DDA raymarching

also douglas uses octrees iirc?

or some similar acceleration structure

[safe dragon]

should see the rendering development channel of a game engine discord weep having to deal with webgl limitations

all hoping to one day wake up and find out every major browser suddenly supports webgpu

[leaden marsh]

the time in 2012 when web was moving so fast that I thought for sure it would be the best platform for making cross-platform games

[sonic mirage]

Well Safari is still back in 2012, so thanks Apple

[leaden marsh]

I made a lot of in-browser games, and I still think the potential is there but

[sand frost]

Sometimes i like using half-functional software because it motivates me to for ex. waste less time on facebook

[leaden marsh]

I do think the hurdle of multiple browsers having varying levels of support for stuff is just a hurdle i personally do not want to overcome

[rain apex]

when can we run ue5 in browsers

[fleet wren]

it was already the best platform for cross-platform games in 2006
cough Flash cough

[sand frost]

(Facebook wants desperately for users to install the app on mobile, I refuse to, hence I use Facebook less)

[sonic mirage]

https://ios404.com/

[leaden marsh]

fair but I mean more like

[fleet wren]

(ok Flash has its own issues. Big ones. but still)

[leaden marsh]

the 3D demos that were coming out in 2012

like hexgl

or the mmo prototypes like uh

[safe dragon]

chrome on windows does support webgpu but chrome on linux still has it behind an experimental flag

[leaden marsh]

what was that game called from Mozilla

BrowserQuest

[safe dragon]

firefox and safari still have it in experimental branches...

the mobile browsers still have zero webgpu support

[leaden marsh]

i'm not surprised by that

unfortunately

[safe dragon]

always a fun feeling when you find out about some really cool or handy thing for css/html only to find out it's not supported by some major browser

usually safari

my current job only officially supports chrome though

[leaden marsh]

OH!

okay i found what i was looking for

https://voxelchain.app/previewer/RayTracing.html

[leaden marsh]

rip

[safe dragon]

opens chromium

pretty cool

[leaden marsh]

i love voxel path tracing

and the folks in MC's shaderlabs that figured out how to do it with Optifine way-back-when is still insane to me

it's substantially easier nowadays because more people have entered the space so Optifine/Iris have added more features to support more advanced shader programs

but some of them are so pretty now too, like MollyVX

or Rethinking Voxels

[crystal wren]

Stardew path tracing for 1.6.10, right?

[safe dragon]

yup despite not having meshes

[sonic mirage]

Just give it the Paper Mario look, but everything is one pixel thick

[safe dragon]

implement radiance cascades in sdv

[sonic mirage]

Like Minecraft tools in your hand

[rain apex]

need utah teapot as furniture in my game

[candid pilot]

add a handheld lantern that casts light around you

[leaden marsh]

it would be pretty cool to see Core Keeper's lighting in stardew

[safe dragon]

utah teapot and the suzanne the blender monkey

[leaden marsh]

and the Stanford dragon

[safe dragon]

honorable mention to just a single big triangle

[leaden marsh]

can't wait for the Sponza farmhouse

[rain apex]

what about generic 6ft man

[cinder karma]

DirectX?

I hear I need to ask you

(Dumb question: what about directy? Or directz

Or direct rho)

[leaden marsh]

or directw

actually DirectW looks like a Windows API command lol

with a counterpart, DirectA

[crystal wren]

...oh geez, it does.

[safe dragon]

that's a lot of direct letters

[fleet wren]

Ah yes, DirectY and the new console that uses it, YBoY Series Y

[leaden marsh]

and the extended versions, DirectExW and DirectExA

[rain apex]

yboy

[fleet wren]

yboy is what my father said when I knocked over a bowl

[candid pilot]

lmaoo

[leaden marsh]

loll

[safe dragon]

wonder if the xbox one x would've sold better if they'd stuck with the code name of xbox scorpio

yboy gemini

[leaden marsh]

i envy the fact that gemini both sounds cool and has a decent meaning

the idea of twins is very versatile for naming lol

[rain apex]

meanwhile ♋

[leaden marsh]

unlucky

[rain apex]

i do like the origin story though

[fleet wren]

xbox is so desperate to not use numbers in their console names (or anything even hinting at an ordinal order) that they resorted to the stupidest naming scheme of all time

[safe dragon]

what if the next nintendo console is called the nintendo gemini cause they're trying a wii u concept again having two devices that are used together

[rain apex]

these other constellations r all heroes or mythical beings

[leaden marsh]

wii u was a banger console

[rain apex]

and then there's this 🦀 heracules stepped on

[leaden marsh]

yeah because the Xbox One has no numbers

[cinder karma]

One is not a number

Kt is a word

[leaden marsh]

you got me there

this is a jump back to an old topic, but do browser games have access to other input devices like controllers?

[fleet wren]

I recall there's a controller input API yeah

[leaden marsh]

oh sick

[fleet wren]

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/API/Gamepad_API/Using_the_Gamepad_API

[leaden marsh]

oh right lol, i should have remembered, given i used a web app to configure my dualsense edge last week

i guess it still needs to prompt the user for perms though?

[fleet wren]

yea

speaking of web stuff I find https://mozilla.github.io/standards-positions/ a pretty useful page to keep track of the wacky stuff going on in web API proposals land

(WebUSB? Really?)

[leaden marsh]

i'm so out of the loop with web stuff these days

the last time i was trying to keep up, HTML5 cache manifest was still a thing

[devout vault]

Web development by behated

[fleet wren]

there is definitely a movement to make web the second "OS" in term of capabilities (because, let's be honest, for the vast majority of end users it already is)

[crystal wren]

They should call it OS... 2.

https://tenor.com/view/ba-dum-tuss-jokes-gotcha-burn-ouch-gif-5645546

[cinder karma]

Lol

hey Microsoft can I open this xlsx in the browser

[safe dragon]

no

surely you can import it into office 365

[pliant snow]

wait a minute...

[rotund violet]

It's no more ridiculous than WebMIDI (god I hate that feature).

[fleet wren]

is it a "why is this a thing" or "why is this designed like this" or both

I'm leaning towards the former reading it

(I'd have to use it to have opinions on the latter lol)

[rotund violet]

It's a "stop stealing my goddamn MIDI interface Chrome/FF/etc." thing.

[devout vault]

Oops wrong channel

[rotund violet]

"Why won't this dedicated recording app respond to the MIDI keyboard? Oh, because the freaking WEB BROWSER decided to block it"

It's the type of feature that makes me long for an Apple/Android-style permission system on Windows, where I can just say "no, this app can't have access to that feature, ever, no matter how badly it wants to"

[fleet wren]

If it's like other similar APIs it should already be asking for perms right

[rain apex]

Wait the browser is allowed to block it for everything??

[fleet wren]

Because that seems wack lol

[rotund violet]

Nothing asks for permissions on Windows?

[rotund violet]

I guess "block" is relative but it opens the device in exclusive mode so nothing else can access it.

And refuses to close it. Ever. For any reason.

[rain apex]

Oh I see, yeah why

[rotund violet]

The only way to make it let go is to either quit the browser or find and force-close the handle with something like Process Explorer.

So yeah, I imagine WebUSB would be very similar. "Why can't I access my printer today?" "Chrome decided it needed it more."

[rain apex]

Does this apply to things like permission to use webcam though?

[rotund violet]

The thing I found with WebMIDI is that even if you disable it for all websites, the browser still opens the device (exclusively). Even if you disable the feature entirely in the browser flags, it still sometimes opens the device (exclusively).

Web site permissions do normally work, more or less, though I was talking about an OS-level permission on the browser itself.

[cinder karma]

Better or worse than "you can't print on Wednesday"

[rotund violet]

Is that an OpenOffice reference or something more recent?

I'd have to say, for me it's worse since I hardly ever print. For a business in 2015ish... probably the printing issue is much worse. (But then what business ever used openoffice?)

[rain apex]

which is more expensive division or switch

i was think about this bc i wrote a get digit func like this

internal static IEnumerable<int> Number(int num) {
    while (num > 0)
    {
        int digit = num % 10;
        yield return digit;
        num /= 10;
    }
}

while focustense did it with a switch

[rotund violet]

Did what now?

[ivory shadow]

You know what's less expensive? Converting the number to a string, getting each character from the string, and converting each character back into a number :>