programmers-off-topic

[crystal wren]

Well, Stardew was technically made with XNA... then ported... but same difference.

[pliant snow]

not that boring celeste

[crystal wren]

How very dare.

[safe dragon]

pico8 celeste

[pliant snow]

the real one

[crystal wren]

Oh.

Okay, I accept this.

[lethal walrus]

celeste on the 3ds is great

[safe dragon]

I think there was some guy on youtube that I used to get recommended videos from that went down this route all the way down to building his own chip

[pliant snow]

pico-8 can be a great inspiration to a young developer

[safe dragon]

his own operating system

all to play I think tetris

pico8 is pretty cool I'll give you that

[pliant snow]

I'm making a game right now

[safe dragon]

cats

what kinda game is it

[pliant snow]

i actually havent finished the logo theres supposed to be another word

[crystal wren]

Okay, everything looks aligned to the pixel grid. You may pass unscathed. /j

[pliant snow]

are you familiar with the hit game Chu Chu Rocket

[safe dragon]

no

[pliant snow]

it was a puzzle game on dreamcast

this is a shameless rip off

[safe dragon]

I respect it

btw. building your own lighting engine from scratch is not something I would recommend... It's probably one of the most complex fields of computing that I've ever encountered

even just introducing shadows is highly complex

[pliant snow]

actually thats why i thought about pico-8, theres a blog series of a guy who did dynamic lighting for his pico-8 game

[ivory shadow]

Stop making me remember how text drawing used to not be pixel aligned in Stardew. (Best change in 1.6?)

[safe dragon]

ok but text rendering gets a pass

it sucks

does pico-8 restrict itself to monospace fonts?

[pliant snow]

The default latin character set is monospaced, but there are additional symbols mapped to the capital letters which arent, and you can just set up and use your own custom font

[dapper sinew]

oh yeah just found that out,just read on a shader server for MC that shaders for mc that use custom lighting can take thousands of hours.... which is costly as well

[crystal wren]

That was one of the most exciting things to me in the Haunted Chocolatier trailer!

[safe dragon]

nerds

ironically raytracing is conceptually much simpler than traditional rendering. It's just unusably slow

building a basic raytracer with shadows and reflections is not that difficult, compared to most rendering anyway

[ivory shadow]

If I was a nerd would I spend hours benchmarking a function to do string splitting more efficiently? Hah, checkmate.

[safe dragon]

yes you would

[ivory shadow]

(Going well though)

[safe dragon]

what's the "games" version you're comparing to?

is that a method in the sdv source code?

did CA write a custom splitting method

[ivory shadow]

StardewValley.ArgUtility.SplitQuoteAware

It's very... "This code needs to run on .NET Framework also"

Though I feel like I could have written a faster method that would run on .NET Framework I may be forgetting how awful .NET Framework is.

[safe dragon]

well you wouldn't have spans at least... I think

[ivory shadow]

It does this weird thing where it calls string.split() and then it iterates over the resulting array, storing entries into a list (that is defined with an initial capacity of 4x the array's length)

I feel like it'd be faster to use StringBuilder + loop over the string, but maybe those operations sucked in .NET Framework and I'm forgetting.

[safe dragon]

don't think so

[crystal wren]

I remember Pathos doing a ton of benchmarks on that method in the 1.6 thread, but finding them is... difficult because of how they were all screenshots.

[safe dragon]

did sdv end up becoming a performance critical application while I wasn't looking?

[ivory shadow]

Anyways time for some real performance tests. (I, of course, am now string splitting the entire bee movie script.)

[crystal wren]

Well, int IDs were replaced with string ones for... a lot of things.

[safe dragon]

why benchmark with the works of shakespeare when you have the bee movie script

why strings

[ivory shadow]

Interesting.

Strings so that mods can extend things.

With numeric Ids mods were constantly running into each other.

And 1.6 was primarily a modding update.

[safe dragon]

all the silly non modders got some extra content to distract them from the true purpose

[dapper sinew]

is that apart of python's libs? or something entirely different

[safe dragon]

cuda is a gpu programming language for nvidia gpus (and by nvidia)

generally speaking running code on a gpu is a pretty complex problem

[dapper sinew]

oh well dang

i got three of the things and need some use for em other than AI

[safe dragon]

any code that isn't for rendering anyway

for rendering you'd use shaders

[dapper sinew]

if not they just are sitting there

[dapper sinew]

i heard its not possible to run shaders across them

[safe dragon]

across what

[dapper sinew]

GPUs

[safe dragon]

oh

multi gpu programming is not even something I have any knowledge about

that's such a specific niche

[dapper sinew]

oh, didnt know that

[ivory shadow]

Multi GPU rendering was abandoned by everyone because the performance gains didn't make up for the problems keeping them synced.

If you're running a compute task that can be split up, that's one thing, but rendering? No thanks.

[dapper sinew]

lol, the more i learn the more i wanna try the niche stuff

but i need the basics first then i can start that

[safe dragon]

a long journey ahead of you

at which point multi gpu rendering might be a forgotten concept

companies like nvidia are already struggling enough getting gpus with multiple dies working without too many sync issues

[dapper sinew]

hmm true. what about multiGPU coding?

would that be forgotten?

[safe dragon]

not the field as a whole because it's important to fields like AI

for rendering it's dead though

so gpu compute will continue to have multi gpu solutions

they'll still be complicated though

[dapper sinew]

hmm ok, other than AI is there any i can use my GPUs for?

[strange copper]

run minecraft at max render distance

[dapper sinew]

sadly MC isnt cross GPU compatible

ive asked like 20 different places and got the same answer

(however i do do that already 256 render distance go brrrrr :3 )

[strange copper]

get into neo4j graph databases and start visualizing way too many nodes at once?

[supple ether]

jesus what kind of hardware do you have that works with 256 render distance

or maybe the only reason it sucks on my machine is because I don't have enough vram

[strange copper]

no i have a decent GPU and i'm not getting anywhere near that

[ivory shadow]

It's more about having the right mods.

Minecraft's native renderer sucks.

[supple ether]

oh are you using nvidium or something

[dapper sinew]

Bobby plus nvidium

[supple ether]

even with sodium I don't get a chunk radius that huge

[dapper sinew]

plus spark and lithuim

[supple ether]

yeah that tracks

[safe dragon]

with the distant horizons mod 256 render distance isn't even particularly crazy

[supple ether]

I can't use nvidium bc I play with other mods

[dapper sinew]

my max was 1k

[supple ether]

distant horizons doesnt work properly with iris though sadly

[ivory shadow]

It would be nice if Nvidium was more broadly compatible.

[dapper sinew]

i tried 10k but my PC red lighted

[safe dragon]

it does nowadays

[ivory shadow]

Isn't there a test build for distant horizons + iris?

[safe dragon]

at least in my experience

yeah

[supple ether]

yeah but shaders still have to have explicit support and only a specific build of Bliss does

[safe dragon]

for now yeah

[supple ether]

if I can start using nvidium with Create and shaders then maybe I'll look into it, but until then I'll keep going with 9-11 chunk range

[dapper sinew]

use bobby if your on fabric

it doesnt hit too hard

[supple ether]

bobby does seem good

i'm still sticking with neoforge for now though, since some of the big mods I like aren't fabric-ported
(ars nouveau, mekanism, apotheosis)
also IME fabric create is somewhat unstable, though that might have changed in newer versions

[dapper sinew]

you can use fabric mods with forge now

well.... some

https://legacy.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/forgified-fabric-api
https://www.curseforge.com/minecraft/mc-mods/sinytra-connector

these two

[supple ether]

yeah, some is the operative word here

[dapper sinew]

slap those in mod list and then you can

[supple ether]

also I was having a lot of trouble with connector the lst time I used it

kept ending up with weird crashes on startup until I got rid of it

[dapper sinew]

i did too but i remember it working after some time

Bobby with and without nvidium(i get much more fps on servers but this is just single player so its less effective)

[supple ether]

what shell are you using?

I can't tell if that's linux or windows with a 3rd party skin

[dapper sinew]

im on Linux

its oxygen with Plasma stuff cause i like the look

[safe dragon]

a 3 monitor setup

fancy

[dapper sinew]

Yeah

[leaden marsh]

Ah hello fellow ShaderLabs member! Technically speaking, what you're writing in Minecraft Shaders for Optifine/Iris is GLSL, the shader language. All of the nitty gritty OpenGL details are left to Optifine/Iris

If you're working on a 2D game, DH is right that SDL w/ SDL_Textures & SDL_Renderer is more than enough to get started with, while still being relatively low level

Anything 3D though, and you'll still likely be requesting an OpenGL context (or DirectX, Metal, etc.) and working with the OpenGL API calls yourself

I highly recommend using SDL, GLFW, or some similar windowing library as the minimum cutoff point if you're looking to go low level. You almost definitely do not want to have to handle the platform-specific boilerplate code for creating a window & polling input from keyboard/mice/controller/other HID

There is a lot of operating system specific code:
https://github.com/glfw/glfw/blob/master/src/win32_window.c (Windows)
https://github.com/glfw/glfw/blob/master/src/cocoa_window.m (MacOS)

And even on the same OS (like Ubuntu), you'd still need to support things like X11 vs Wayland:
https://github.com/glfw/glfw/blob/master/src/x11_window.c
https://github.com/glfw/glfw/blob/master/src/wl_window.c

All that just to create a functioning window that can be moved around, resized, handle input events, etc.

And those are definitely valid things to build expertise in! There is, for instance, Handmade Hero (https://hero.handmade.network/episode/code) which goes about creating games via those really low level, fundamental building blocks

But in my heart of hearts I cannot recommend training for a marathon as your very first race, so to speak

[dapper sinew]

Ahh hello!

im actually really wanting to get into shaders

[leaden marsh]

that's a great place to start!

[dapper sinew]

gotta fix a current bug in a tutorial shader im having, been working on it for like 3 days now

[leaden marsh]

I also started my graphics journey with Minecraft Shaders, both resourcepack & optifine ones

[dapper sinew]

it seems so hard to learn but i want pretty game lol

[leaden marsh]

It can be a lot at first, for sure

And for what it's worth, I think Minecraft Shaders are perhaps harder to learn than most

You're stuck working around the limitations of the engine & whatever Optifine/Iris exposes for you to use

[dapper sinew]

would you be willing to help me with a issue ive been having, or point me in the right area to look?

well two issues really

[leaden marsh]

I can try, for sure!

Though I'm sure the dev trainee chat on the labs could also be very helpful on that end too

[dapper sinew]

oh yeah, ive tried there, had a few people take a look but no-one seemed to be able to figure it out

probably cause idk what to give em

(code wise)

actually yeah ill ask there, so i dont fill this chat! if you wanna see whats going on itll be there, if you dont, thats ok too!

[leaden marsh]

we'll see! I've been inactive for almost 3 years so it's been a while

But I'll take a look if there's something I can point you in the right direction for

[leaden marsh]

So I'm gonna respond in here, it looks like you might need to clamp a value somewhere

It seems like there are spots where a value might be going negative and/or fragments are getting discarded

[dapper sinew]

handy alright, ill go google how to do that

[leaden marsh]

I would take a look at the gbuffers fragment programs.

It could also be in the composite shaders. Idk how many buffers your shader is using but it could also be that the entities are in one buffer, while the terrain is in another, and when blending them together there's some mistake

What stands out is that the places where the entities are seemingly discarding fragments seem to be absolutely black

I'd recommend loading your screenshot into an image editor and sampling the colors where the fragments are being discarded; I suspect it's #000000 RGB(0,0,0)

[dapper sinew]

will do, thank you

[leaden marsh]

Oh, actually, no, I think the answer might be a lot simpler than that

It looks like you're applying the terrain shadow onto the entities

I'm not sure how the things are getting composited, but it definitely seems like the entity fragments are having the same lighting as the terrain behind it should have

Make sure you're sampling the shadow map correctly for the entities

[dapper sinew]

Oh this is all from a tutorial shader, trying to learn how they work

ill take a look at the shadow stuff and sadlly no entity files, but ill take a look at the terrain to make sure nothing funky is going on

[leaden marsh]

there's no gbuffer entities?

[dapper sinew]

nope

https://github.com/saada2006/MinecraftShaderProgramming/tree/master

thats the tutorial im using

[leaden marsh]

That's odd

This tutorial shader doesn't look like it would work at all if there's entities in the screen

It's a strictly terrain shader

[leaden marsh]

Basically what's happening is gbuffers_terrain.fsh is outputting to 3 buffers.

0: albedo (the raw color of the texture + any color modifiers)
1: The normal vectors, converted so that [-1,1] maps to [0,1]
2: The lightmap coords (the coordinate where to sample the Minecraft lightmap

^^ example lightmap

The problem is that there's no gbuffer entities program, so by default it is using a "passthrough shader"

Basically, buffer 0 (the albedo) will have the color of the entity, and then none of the other buffers will be written to

So buffer 1 (the normal vectors) still has the normal vectors of the terrain, even if there are entities that are drawn above that terrain

Buffer 2 will also still be using the lightmap coordinates of the terrain

So when applying the lighting in composite.fsh, it is using the data of the terrain even when there are entities in the screen

That is to say, this is a very simplistic tutorial shader that won't actually work for normal gameplay, and only illustrates how to do basic lighting on terrain alone

[dapper sinew]

ohhhhhhh ok

[leaden marsh]

Personally I'd recommend learning from the resources linked in #dev-info of ShaderLabs, like the shadow tutorial that was (I believe) originally made by builderboy

https://github.com/shaderLABS/Shadow-Tutorial

This one is far more complete & actually is a fully working Minecraft pack

You can modify it & build off of it to add your own stylizations, like bloom, tone mapping, etc

[dapper sinew]

oh nice, thank you. the one i was given was from the dev-info and i didnt think to check other ones from there(lazyness on my part)

[leaden marsh]

No worries! It's hard to find resources to learn about this stuff (especially the Minecraft specific stuff)

I personally think playing around with a more complete pack helps better understand what each program does. You can, for example, write only the color red for a certain .fsh program to see how it affects a scene

That's how the Resource Pack Shader devs initially reverse engineered which programs do what

[dapper sinew]

i think thats how ill have to learn to code, is by reverse engineering, im having a really hard time doing it the normal way (i think, not sure if this is just how it is at the start)

[leaden marsh]

Yeah for Minecraft Shaders especially, it's hard to follow tutorials especially because so much changes every year

Back when I was still active, Iris was still very new and didn't support most Optifine shaders

Now it has its own feature set distinct from Optifine iirc

The fundamentals though have largely stayed the same

[dapper sinew]

from what i hear, Optifine has really fallen down

but im not sure

[leaden marsh]

Yeah I mean, fundamentally Optifine & Iris packs are pretty similar

But when you start getting to more advanced, cutting edge stuff

Like using compute shaders, doing voxelization, using buffers (like for random access storage)

I believe Iris is actively doing more to support that sort of dev work

probably something to be said as well about using Fabric or whatever

Idk, I've been out of the game for a while

[dapper sinew]

lol just saw this comment on a programming vid of someone doing something crazy
"The problem with programmers is that, given the opportunity, they will start programming"

[sonic mirage]

"We do this not because it is easy, but because we thought it was going to be easy"

[cinder karma]

Day 35837473 of wanting to murder LabVIEW

Also, why am I debugging openssl issues

[sonic mirage]

Imagine having ni.com and not having it just host a Monty Python meme

[dapper sinew]

Me every time

[dapper sinew]

why is C++ easier than python for me (so far)

[safe dragon]

I hope you'll be safe from labview soon

[harsh mortar]

you know that saying, "tip of the iceberg"? well, C++ isn't that. it's more like an iceberg tip in the beginning, but beyond that it sprawls into two icebergs. and then you find out those two icebergs actually have pointers between them that expand to about 250 different icebergs with more icebergs referenced in their headers. all the while, your toolchain is catching fire and you're asking yourself "what the FUCK is Makefile language" or telling yourself "if I have to decipher one more line of CMake gobbledigook I might actually destroy my computer with a blowtorch."

anyways, once you get the hang of all the quirks and patterns inherent in those 250 icebergs, you find out that all of the patterns you learned were based on metaprogramming using templates that apply to no other library except the one you just learned. all the while, your program is eating memory like it's a hungry wolverine and is outputting nothing but error codes that tell you nothing about what is actually wrong.

anyways, enjoy!

[dapper sinew]

so long as i can learn A language i dont care which one it is

[harsh mortar]

fair! although I'd definitely recommend C over C++ (unless you're in a class or something already), it'll teach you so much more. taught myself C to work on pokemon emerald decompilation/modding and it was great. it's essential for getting a handle on what other programming languages are actually doing and how the shortcuts they implement actually function under the hood.

granted, C is sorta unforgiving. especially if you know other languages - the more high-level they are, the harder C will be for you, because you'll have to unlearn a LOT of stuff. C++ is this to an extent, but there's so many layers on top of it that it's like a whole 'nother thing. Rust also follows that principle, but it's even hard for people who know C/C++ since it sorta forks into another path entirely in terms of its conventions.

[dapper sinew]

i have a goal in mind but it required a biiiiiiiiiiig learning curve

i wanna make MC into a retainer mode game

[harsh mortar]

retainer mode?

[dapper sinew]

hard to explain given idk it much either

[harsh mortar]

(also isn't MC java? or do you mean reimplement the entirety of Minecraft in C++ and THEN do that?)

[dapper sinew]

MC is java yeah

[harsh mortar]

because that's going to be a not-fun time if i'm being honest

if the latter is your goal

[dapper sinew]

nah just learning C++ for the "basics"

[harsh mortar]

(unless you already have plenty of experience in gamedev, that is)

ah okay

i mean C++ is the exact opposite of basic but I get what you mean

[dapper sinew]

i cant read python, its to wierd

[dapper sinew]

i wanna learn to code and C++ seemed to be the most readable to me

[harsh mortar]

...really? I find most C++ codebases to be an unreadable mess

but different people work differently i suppose

granted, compared to Java, I can't say that I entirely blame you. i'd look into Kotlin, it's like Java if it were designed by someone without brain damage

[dapper sinew]

lol

btw, i know my goals are wild

but i am deterimend to get there once i can code

[harsh mortar]

meh not entirely, MC modding is a good intro project

[dapper sinew]

i, i would be refactoring the entire render engine of MC

thats a big step up from simple modding

[harsh mortar]

oh lmfao, then that's different. probably not a great idea, unless you plan to do it with shadercode.

[cinder karma]

Can someone please find the chart of "how to decide your passing convention in c++"

[harsh mortar]

is it this one?

[cinder karma]

It was worse than that but thar is about right

[harsh mortar]

lmfaoooo

[cinder karma]

C++ is a very old language with its quirks

Not to say it is bad

But it is many layers of changes

[harsh mortar]

also i will say, modern C++? not terrible. but yeah, it's old, and there's been so many like... phases, and libraries, and people doing things terribly and then teaching those people how to do them terribly, over cycles and cycles and so on.

like modern C++ is great if you can stick to it, but good luck finding resources that ignore historic patterns and now-redundant conventions lol

[cinder karma]

I'm somewhat e,citedly following the guy trying to make safe c++

[dapper sinew]

well dang, i just want a readable language to code in

(readable to me)

[cinder karma]

I'm just a language nerd

I love this stuff

[pliant snow]

If you like it, feel free to use it, don't let the C++ naysayers put you down. It's a fine langauge

[upbeat turtle]

The problem with C++ is that you can still do C stuff in it. You start by doing C++ the C++ way. Then it gets convoluted, so you say "heck with this!" and do C++ C style. Two different memory managers. And then you cross the pointers. Then ZUUL comes down from the heavens...

[trim relic]

Weirdly... You can say almost the same with TypeScript and JavaScript

[upbeat turtle]

But JS and TS at least have garbage collection. 😉

[trim relic]

Ya know... Fair...

[upbeat turtle]

=shurg= Doesn't matter. My uni started off teaching us.... Ada.

[trim relic]

I'm self-taught myself. Picked up learning to program in random languages as a hobby over the years.

My most cursed creation is a Discord bot that posts on a schedule that it gets from a MediaWiki page in JSON.

[strange copper]

And yet i still managed to make an "out of heap space" error once

[harsh mortar]

i mean, GC'd languages still have a heap, it's just managed by the GC. if you run out of allocatable memory, the GC cannot save you

[cinder karma]

Hey, I needed to allocate 18 exabytes

Don't ask why

Just give it to me, pls

[ivory shadow]

why

[strange copper]

you get me 😌

i'm just saying the only time i caused a memory error bad enough to kill the heap it was in typescript... coincidence... i think NOT

[safe dragon]

just a little bit of caching

[crystal wren]

I like my data appropriately spaced out in memory, okay? It's all shy.

[safe dragon]

taking sparse data structures seriously

[supple ether]

Benefits of converting recursion to a loop:

• Can't overflow the stack
  Drawbacks of converting recursion to a loop:
• Infinite loops won't overflow the stack

[safe dragon]

I've never overflowed the stack with recursive code unless it was an infinite loop

[cinder karma]

I hear thr windows stack is teensy

4kb

[safe dragon]

should be 18 exabytes

[upbeat turtle]

Stack smashing!

[safe dragon]

usually when I write recursive code it's for some tree that's at most like 5 levels deep

[pliant snow]

ive done it for AoC

[safe dragon]

I've always done AoC in languages with good tail call optimization

functional programming languages + rust

no stack overflow

unless you of course write recursive code that isn't friendly to tail call optimization

[supple ether]

me neither, but I'm always worried about it when doing things like flood fill algorithms and tree traversal. images are Big and people do crazy things with trees

[safe dragon]

gotta be careful with floodfill definitely

at least you can just use a queue

[supple ether]

yeah

but then of course if you write the algorithm wrong you get an infinite loop :P

[safe dragon]

when you forget to check your visited cells...

[tropic anchor]

Did AoC in python

[safe dragon]

like most

[cinder karma]

I like rust

[safe dragon]

definitely the most popular language for aoc

[cinder karma]

You can make your stack frames teensy

I love that

[supple ether]

what I did was I was limiting by range because there were no bounds, but unfortunately my range comparison had a typo and was referencing the current cell instead of the source point

so it just spiraled out into infinity

[safe dragon]

always ideal

[tropic anchor]

I try to do a different language each year, first year I did was c#, last year was python, this year I'm considering GO

[cinder karma]

I mean my last aoc flood fill originally had the bounds wronf

So it walked off checking 9999999,0,0

Mysteriously

[safe dragon]

I've done AoC twice in Elixir, once in Haskell and once in Rust

I might just do elixir again this year

or maybe go exotic

Roc-lang

[cinder karma]

Go is on my list to learn proper

[sand frost]

AoC is never going to be at a good time for me tbh

[supple ether]

I can do c#, python, js, rust (sort of) and java (sort of) so I feel like I've got enough of a toolkit for now
though I will probably try and pick up php again at some point

[sand frost]

December is not a chill month (except in the weather :P)

[safe dragon]

I usually have way too many weeks of pto left at the end of the year so I usually end up taking time off for the later days off of aoc

[sand frost]

Time off is a strange and foreign concept

[supple ether]

it would be fun to do something with xslt again too, it's been a while

[cinder karma]

I need to re code this fpga code entirely ahahahaha

Think I might try Clash

[sand frost]

There are days when I do less work and days when I do more work, and no one really tells me what to do, but the downside is I’m never really off

[cinder karma]

Sheku was surprised when I mentioned to him I often don't take both weekend days odf

[safe dragon]

my company does a feature freeze in december due to our clients being retailers and being unwilling to risk anything breaking during the holiday season. As a result it's usually super chill

[supple ether]

@sand frost why the fear emote xD
not a fan of php I take it?

[sand frost]

When I was writing my thesis I took half days on Sundays to teach the children! I do usually do very little work on weekends but emails never stop

[sand frost]

Php scares me…

[safe dragon]

that's unfortunate

[sand frost]

I am decent enough in Python, Matlab, and C# at this point. I remember very little of Java and Scheme (Lisp) but could probably pick that up again without too much trouble?

In terms of things that would actually help my job it’s probably just C++ and that sounds like hell tbh

I could try to learn rust and cave to the peer pressure 😛

[cinder karma]

Europeans

[safe dragon]

my choices for AoC have never been practical ones

[cinder karma]

Peer presssureeeeee

[sand frost]

I’m in academia, so it’s a bargain I’ve made with ups and downs

[cinder karma]

attempts the linux peer pressure again

[sand frost]

Help! I’m squished! Like one of those cute clay figures in a hydraulic press

[sand frost]

Yeah that’s not gonna take unless Apple drastically screws up 😛

[safe dragon]

In a way different from their regular fuck ups

[sand frost]

And/or major simulation softwares mysteriously change over to Linux

From windows only

[cinder karma]

....what if I try multiple avenues of peer pressure

[sand frost]

I can handle having to use two OSs but i think I would keel over if I had to do 3

[sand frost]

😂

[safe dragon]

get into vulkan rendering development it's what got me to finally switch to linux for real

[cinder karma]

That sounds actively unfun tbh

[sand frost]

Rendering sounds bad, like something i should get other people to do

[safe dragon]

not because it's the best platform for vulkan development, that's windows.... but I just could not for the life of me install the shit I needed on windows after several hours of trying

[sand frost]

There’s things I can do and then there’s things I should do…and to play to my strengths i definitely should not be writing renderers

[safe dragon]

meanwhile it took like 5 minutes on linux

[sand frost]

Installing Python on windows is stupidly difficult

It’s not hard to install but it’s hard to install correctly

And it makes no goddamn sense

I’m definitely committing crimes with my Python setup on macOS but at least they’re very easy

[safe dragon]

windows package management

[sand frost]

Also some of the grad students are telling me conda doesn’t work for some specific robot thingy

Big sigh but also something I’m not likely to end up actually debugging myself

[safe dragon]

the right choice

rendering is some of the most arcane shit I've ever looked at

especially as someone with a very poor grasp of linear algebra

and runs in fear from the word quaternion

though to be fair, almost everyone runs in fear from quaternions

[sand frost]

Ah, I’m okay with linear algebra and quaternions actually

[safe dragon]

wow

[sand frost]

I just don’t want to bother with whatever the computer does at a low level

[crystal wren]

Write a Vulkan renderer entirely in Python then! /j

[sand frost]

And I haven’t touched quaternions in years, but like it’s just the complex plane but more complexier right 😛

[safe dragon]

using the vulkan C api directly

write 1000 lines boilerplate just to render a triangle inefficiently

[crystal wren]

Even better. Pull as much of that into Python as you can and go even more direct.

[sand frost]

At some point I might have to replace matplotlib in our gui which will be an utter disaster, I am sure

[safe dragon]

it's the complexiest

[sand frost]

Matplotlib isn’t good but it works

[safe dragon]

never replace it

[sand frost]

Grad students keep complaining it’s slow and inefficient and it’s where a huge chunk of computation time is going

[cinder karma]

Absolutely

[cinder karma]

What are you using it to render?

[cinder karma]

See, Crumble, she's mechE and I have not insubstantial physics chops

Linal is fine.

[sand frost]

Simulation results every n time steps

I at least let you set n

[cinder karma]

Ah

You in JS?

[sand frost]

Most people better than me at math are mathematicians or theoretical physicists

[sand frost]

No, Python

[cinder karma]

Pure python including gui?

[sand frost]

There’s like numpy and shit being used but yeah

Though we also have a website version

Luckily I don't touch the website

[crystal wren]

...ooh.

public implicit extension PersonExtension for Person
{
    public bool IsLead
        => this.Organization
            .Teams
            .Any(team => team.Lead == this);
}

[thin estuary]

is that finally happening in C# 13 or not? i've seen some kind of reddit post, but it wasn't conclusive

[crystal wren]

It is!

https://devblogs.microsoft.com/dotnet/dotnet-build-2024-announcements/#:~:text=C%23 13 takes the next,extension types cannot hold state.

[thin estuary]

the proposal also still has a ton of TODOs

ohhhhh params change

[safe dragon]

ah yeah that

implicit and explicit extensions

scrolls past all the AI shit

being able to use spans for params is pretty neat

[ivory shadow]

Hell yeah params

I hadn't seen that

(Will it be compatible with .NET 6 though? I have no idea how params work behind the scenes.)

[thin estuary]

although honestly collection expressions make it so i'm not even sure i want to use params anymore

[ivory shadow]

Thinking about it logically, I would expect it to work with .NET 6.

[thin estuary]

i see no reason why it wouldn't, params is just syntax sugar, isn't it?

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, that's my assumption. But I have no practical experience to know for sure.

[thin estuary]

ohhhh static extensions too

that's very nice

[ivory shadow]

Yeah, the extension stuff looks pretty neat too.

[thin estuary]

i can finally drop my ugly extension methods which look like properties but you need to call them with () for no fucking reason

i guess we're not getting extensions which can make a type implement a new interface yet though

and that almost surely wouldn't be backwards compatible lol

[safe dragon]

extensions that don't need to be static is neat

the blazor changes aren't particularly exciting...

gotta try out the websocket compression

[ivory shadow]

I haven't really used blazor for anything. We don't use it at work. Our server stuff is all TypeScript projects.

[safe dragon]

we use it for I think three projects at work

only of em is server blazor tho

Last year we introduced initial support for building .NET MAUI apps in Visual Studio Code across Windows, Mac, and Linux with the C# Dev Kit.

uh microsoft

maui does not support linux

I mean I'm sure VSCode supports it...

the params changes are probably the most interesting ultimately

maybe the extensions but I'll have to use them

wait no actually

being able to define properties as extensions is huge

[tropic anchor]

Will be supported as of Stardew 1.9

[tropic anchor]

You may not be able to run them, but build them anyway!

[safe dragon]

so nice

[tropic anchor]

Yay developer, boo consumer -whoever decided that

[crystal wren]

https://tenor.com/sR1j.gif

[cinder karma]

Something something the magic of traits

[safe dragon]

something something orphan rules

okay actually even rust's orphan rule(which is annoying enough) at least lets you implement an interface if you own that interface yourself

allowing you to implement interfaces you don't own for types you also don't own is a nightmare from a package compatibility perspective

it'd be so nice tho

[cinder karma]

Yeah

It makes for a proliferation of serde packages

[safe dragon]

it's easy enough to work around in a final application but it's definitely a pain if you maintain a library

C# tho... ur screwed

[thin estuary]

they're marketing it as a C# 13 feature, aka unrelated to .NET, so idk

[tropic anchor]

That makes it 20x more interesting

[safe dragon]

meanwhile one of the projects I've been working with lately at work is set to I think C# 7

[tropic anchor]

I usually just use latest, so this is going to help me out a lot

[crystal wren]

Meanwhile I apparently can't even get it to work using the preview .NET 9, preview VS while targeting .NET 9...

[safe dragon]

I don't believe that part has even made it into any usable build

[crystal wren]

That... would certainly explain many things. I totally read that article as this being in the preview now.

[thin estuary]

yep. the article says the extensions are not in preview yet

[safe dragon]

You can mess around with the params already in sharplab

no idea if it's available anywhere else yet

it does indeed compile

the C# it's lowered into definitely ain't as pretty looking as the old array version

mostly just because spans

always looks spooky though

[CompilerGenerated]
internal sealed class <PrivateImplementationDetails>
{
    internal static ReadOnlySpan<TElement> InlineArrayAsReadOnlySpan<TBuffer, TElement>([In][IsReadOnly] ref TBuffer buffer, int length)
    {
        return MemoryMarshal.CreateReadOnlySpan(ref Unsafe.As<TBuffer, TElement>(ref Unsafe.AsRef(ref buffer)), length);
    }

    internal static ref TElement InlineArrayElementRef<TBuffer, TElement>(ref TBuffer buffer, int index)
    {
        return ref Unsafe.Add(ref Unsafe.As<TBuffer, TElement>(ref buffer), index);
    }
}

[StructLayout(LayoutKind.Auto)]
[InlineArray(3)]
internal struct <>y__InlineArray3<T>
{
    [CompilerGenerated]
    private T _element0;
}

nothing it generates to me looks like something that shouldn't work in .NET 6

[cinder karma]

Spans aren't scary

They're like pointers but safe

[safe dragon]

smh it clearly used Unsafe.Add right there smh

you definitely can do some nasty unsafe stuff with spans if you really want to

though I suppose that's true of most things

[spice patrol]

For ex. Robin and the Traveling Cart, which have random items, and entries including ex.

"Id": "RandomObjects",
"ItemId": "RANDOM_ITEMS (O) 2 789 @requirePrice @isRandomSale",
or
"Id": "RandomFurniture",
"ItemId": "RANDOM_ITEMS (F) 0 1612 @requirePrice @isRandomSale",
Am I correct in the assessment that none of the items added in 1.6 (besides ones explicitly stated elsewhere, like the spouse-portraits from the cart, the Dwarvish Safety Manual from the dwarf, etc.) are available in these random rolls, since the code requires a numbered id between the listed numbers, and the new items have words as their ids instead (so ex. Lead Bobber (id 692) is available at the cart, while Sonar Bobber (id SonarBobber) is not)?

[safe dragon]

this looks suspiciously on topic

[pliant snow]

(Watch this life hack)

Wow, the stardew.chat bot response list looks weird on mobile when some commands are opened. Too bad no one here is smart enough to fix it

[tropic anchor]

Yea... That's too bad... Good luck anyways

[pliant snow]

gdi

[crystal wren]

word-break: break-all;

That should force the URLs to wrap?

...but it does make normal wrapping look terrible.

[cinder karma]

I'm very dumb

[pliant snow]

Yeah I think its the URL thats the issues. Im also not sure if theres other mobile friendly changes i should make alongside it

[safe dragon]

such a shame

[lethal walrus]

Aquo your links are broken

Honestly aside from borders disappearing the page is fine for me

Nvm, macscreenshots is weird

Now can I code on a phone and it work

[pliant snow]

Thats by design. I want it to show what actually is typed in

[lethal walrus]

Wow, github.dev works on mobile

Nvm

Desktop mode!!

[safe dragon]

yeah 1 px borders are finnicky but it seems to work alright

[lethal walrus]

https://github.com/AnotherPillow/governor latest two commits, yes I have no idea why it's 112000 pixels I only typed 1 once, the 2 typed it again

[dapper sinew]

me with OpenGL
https://www.youtube.com/shorts/-2Nf06qbYiw?feature=share

[cinder karma]

Work purchased coconut dr pepper

I now need to go around asking who lost their sanith

[supple ether]

yeah one time I did something horrible with kotlin and wrote a 200-line file that turned into a 2000-line file when you compiled it

[supple ether]

that sounds good, I had no idea that was a thing

[cinder karma]

I tried one on a lark

It is not

[supple ether]

:(

[dapper sinew]

gods no

[supple ether]

man now I want a strawberry cream dr pepper

[supple ether]

I was working with a framework that had like 30 different classes that all had the same fields and methods but didn't share an interface or base class and I was trying to find a generic way to set those values that didn't make me want to throw out my computer

never going back to that project ever

[dapper sinew]

oof

[dapper sinew]

does C++ have a std::getfile command?

tried asking google but dont know the proper terms yet still

[strange copper]

do you want to read, check it exists, or write?

[dapper sinew]

check if it exists

reading is next

writing is last

[strange copper]

https://en.cppreference.com/w/cpp/filesystem/exists

[dapper sinew]

ooooooo

[strange copper]

i really just put "cpp check file exists" into google. it's pretty good at guessing what you want

apparently you can also try an open an input stream and check if the stream is good

which might be what you want anyway if you're going to write/read

[dapper sinew]

ahh i was trying the key words, guess its as simple as i hoped it would be

[dapper sinew]

im gonna learn more C++ and then try making a simple file browser

[strange copper]

it's worth noting this is a c++17 feature

[dapper sinew]

oof im on 14

[strange copper]

oh boy, posix

i sure love the man pages

[dapper sinew]

?

[strange copper]

you can do a lot of directory/file io in posix system calls

they're just annoying

cpp probably abstracts some of them? i get all lost between C and C++ because we did so much C in my course lol

[dapper sinew]

rip

i know this is a lot simpler in something like python or javascript but meh

[strange copper]

you're probably going to want scandir for listing files in a directory once you get there since you aren't in cpp 17 (assuming linux)

[dapper sinew]

noted, will learn more first cause still dont even know how to do a name printer just yet

but i think i file browser is a good first start

as a test of knowledge(im just guessing)

[strange copper]

scandir is a posix call so it's a little weird to use (at least to me. took me a while to get used to all the funny structs). but the man page (manual page; you can type man scandir in your terminal or google) has an example

[worn remnant]

in C++/C land, i would avoid checking for the file first. just try to open it, and check whether it succeeded.
if you check for existence first, you are susceptible to a(n unlikely) race condition between checking and opening.

[dapper sinew]

i also got a handy thing i found called tldr, basically man but simplified, provided the community made a page

[strange copper]

wait what's the race condition come from if your program is sequential?

[worn remnant]

another program can create delete the file in the meantime

[strange copper]

that is a true statemnt

maybe out of scope 😭

it reminds me of when you wanna delete a file but some other process has a hold on that file lol

i do agree with just trying to open though rather than checking existance

[dapper sinew]

just sudo rm -rf --no-preserve-root / and you want have that issue any more :3

(do not)

[strange copper]

jokes on you i run windows 😭

[dapper sinew]

oh yeah, %0%0's you

[strange copper]

i'm literally writing race condition test cases right now, this is funny timing

[dapper sinew]

uncase your code

it needs freedom

and food

feed it twice daily

[dapper sinew]

also magic words, coding still hard

[strange copper]

race condition is like two users/processes trying to do conflicting actions on a shared resource like a database or file

you know when you try to book tickets online

and you're like ooo i add to cart!!! and ticketmaster is like ummmmmm actually someone else just bought those sorry you can't have em

[dapper sinew]

oof yeah

[strange copper]

or like lacey's example, person A wants to write to some file, but just as they're about to open it, person B deletes it

[safe dragon]

race conditions are some of the worst most difficult to figure out bugs out there

[sonic mirage]

Team Lead: "Hey, can you add these features and adjust some business logic in this desktop app you've worked on before?"
Me: *checks commit history* "I haven't worked on that app since 2016, which means I might as well have never worked on it before"

Team Lead: "Also everyone that does work on it is off Friday and you're not added to any of the tasks with the info you probably need, good luck"
Me: 😐

[safe dragon]

that's fun

I had to help a guy in essentially that situation before

except I suppose that I was around to help

[sonic mirage]

I updated my copy of the repo and I think this is a ship of Theseus situation

[safe dragon]

was strange to explain a service to the person who originally created it

[safe dragon]

seeing every design decision you made back then clearly disregarded now...

[sand frost]

It seems like everyone is off today... but yikes!

[sonic mirage]

Well they're on vacation / sick, but yeah, we'll see how good the comments / doc in the code is after not being in there in forever.

[sand frost]

yeah I think tons of people are taking the 4 day weekend

in the US, at least

[safe dragon]

do you have some holiday on Monday?

[sonic mirage]

Memorial Day

[safe dragon]

ah

the Netherlands is out of holidays till Christmas unfortunately

[sonic mirage]

I didn't even realize until like mid-week otherwise I probably would've taken today off too lol

[safe dragon]

most of my team works part time so Fridays are pretty quiet

Fridays and Wednesdays

[sonic mirage]

I only get work done like 4 to 6 hours each workday anyways

[safe dragon]

same

[sonic mirage]

I can only get deep into something for so long before I need some air

Sometimes 4 hours of work is 3.5 hours of reading docs and collecting notes and then .5 hour to actually make the changes. Which is fine as long as no one interrupts you, but that never happens.

https://www.monkeyuser.com/2018/focus/79-focus.png

[safe dragon]

glad you have 3.5 hours worth of documentation

[rugged flower]

home server life

[pliant snow]

they were trying to be kind when using the word Fair

[safe dragon]

only triple the efficiency zone

[pliant snow]

I actually bought some plugs with energy monitoring on them the other day, I need to hook one up to my server, I have no idea how much electricity it uses

maybe i'll do that now

just dont accidentally hit the remote off switch on it...

[safe dragon]

I have a home server but my monthly electricity usage is 140 kWh

was 170 kWh when I had a minecraft server running...

[rugged flower]

probably more likely the piss poor insulation in my apartment and the need to run my AC constantly

[safe dragon]

AC would do it

[pliant snow]

ours is the AC and dryer I think

[rugged flower]

oh yeah... in unit laundry too

[safe dragon]

I hang dry almost everything despite owning a dryer

[pliant snow]

good thing i dont charge my car at home hehe

[safe dragon]

good thing I don't even own a car

[pliant snow]

that'll cost even less!

[safe dragon]

a lot less than I thought tbh

[pliant snow]

cars are expensive

[safe dragon]

that's a strange sentence but you get what I mean

yeah just insurance and road tax + parking cost at my foot would be several hundred a month

[dapper sinew]

i wish Linux had voicemod, so nice for coding

[safe dragon]

why do you need a voice changer to program...

[dapper sinew]

oop i mean voiceattack lol

its a voice activated app that can do a whoooooole lot

i can also just add hotkeys to stuff, like making a class

[pliant snow]

do i still have internet test test

[dapper sinew]

you do

or did

[pliant snow]

that didnt work the first time i tried it

well.. I probably shouldve hooked up the power plug before connecting it to the server. Now I cant force it into pairing mode...

[safe dragon]

that's... interesting for accessibility

I've never felt the desire to talk to my computer and would rather just use custom snippets myself though

[pliant snow]

I curse at mine, does that count

[safe dragon]

does the pc react to it

[pliant snow]

i like to think it understands the sentiment

[safe dragon]

maybe then

[sonic mirage]

https://imgs.xkcd.com/comics/sandwich.png

[pliant snow]

how long until the mods notice bouncer is up and down and message me in a panic

[sonic mirage]

Are you saying that bouncer is bouncing? That sounds almost like intended behavior based on the name

[safe dragon]

closes comment with Won't fix

[ivory shadow]

sudo make me a sandwich.
Syntax error

[pliant snow]

User is not in the sudoers file, this incident will be reported

oh hang on, i gotta wait 18 more minutes for the firmware of my smart plug to update...

[ivory shadow]

reported to who, tho

[safe dragon]

why does a smart plug need a 20 minute long firmware update

[safe dragon]

me

my email is spammed 24/7 from random people all over the world trying to use sudo without being a sudoer

[ivory shadow]

I'm gonna do it more now that I know

[dapper sinew]

windows needs a sudo install command

i dislike having to use google just to install something

(wget doesnt count)

[ivory shadow]

Windows is getting sudo finally, isn't it? Not that I'm willing to downgrade to Windows 11 to use it

[dapper sinew]

is it?

[safe dragon]

it is yeah

[dapper sinew]

first time im hearing of this

[pliant snow]

im not sure why it is, but its getting one

[safe dragon]

was in preview last I heard

[dapper sinew]

VICTORY

[safe dragon]

I for one am very happy about this

[ivory shadow]

It's convenient to have instead of reopening a shell as administrator all the time

[dapper sinew]

you... dont have to LOL

[safe dragon]

cause I keep opening powershell normally, realizing I didn't open it as administrator, close it again and try again

[dapper sinew]

theres an option already

[safe dragon]

there is?

[dapper sinew]

yep

[safe dragon]

oh there is some command thing for it which apparently differs depending on which terminal you have open

[ivory shadow]

Just turn off UAC

[safe dragon]

I'm not sure our IT department would be a fan

[dapper sinew]

i do that for every new install

[ivory shadow]

I think the goal of introducing sudo is that people remember sudo easily and don't remember Microsoft's random fuckin commands that aren't even consistent

[safe dragon]

and something that isn't a security hazard if you forget to close the terminal after...

[dapper sinew]

sudo is the best

maybe we can finally sudo unistall ALL THE STUPID WINDOWS ADS

[safe dragon]

alas

no

[dapper sinew]

[safe dragon]

I haven't seen any ads but I only use windows at work which presumably doesn't have them

[dapper sinew]

whhen you hit windows key, do you normally see a bunch of apps in the start menue

half of those arent installed, they are ads

(on base install at least)

[safe dragon]

idk tbh I instantly start typing the moment I open that thing to find the app I need

[dapper sinew]

same

[safe dragon]

I think it looks fine though but can't check till Monday

[dapper sinew]

you could VM a windows install to see the horror

[safe dragon]

I'd hope they didn't put the ads on windows 11 professional

[pliant snow]

something tells me they wont be rolling out that god awful recall feature to the enterprise versions

[ivory shadow]

I feel like this also has to do with whether someone lives in the US or in an actual country with laws and stuff

[dapper sinew]

NDAs go brrrrrr.

[dapper sinew]

it does yeah, if you select international all the ads in the start menu go away cause they arent allowed to show ads for places they dont havce access to

now, the normal ads stay

[pliant snow]

my work version of windows also doesnt have ads and I'm in the US

[dapper sinew]

no getting rid of those

[dapper sinew]

LUCKY

rivo unistaller is great for getting rid of bloat without killing the PC

[safe dragon]

always been hesitant to use those kinda tools

obviously now I won't cause I'd get murdered trying to run anything like that on my work laptop

[dapper sinew]

lol

[pliant snow]

I got it set up, it claims my server is using 50W

which is much lower than i was expecting tbh

[dapper sinew]

id take the murder if it meant i could use my PC in peace

[safe dragon]

while actually running services?

[pliant snow]

yeah theres like 10 or so docker images started

[dapper sinew]

what kinda server you got?

[safe dragon]

not bad

[pliant snow]

i thought it would be over 100W easy

[crystal wren]

Oh, they're still there, don't worry.

[pliant snow]

i built it myself from desktop consumer parts

[dapper sinew]

your name implies there are... UnDecidelyHumans

[pliant snow]

i cant remember what power supply is in it, but i didnt think it was one of the best efficiency, which was an oversight

[dapper sinew]

whats it run?

[pliant snow]

bouncer, leah, the jukebox

home assistant and various services, jellyfin

[dapper sinew]

i wanna make a server server once i get another PC in the future

[pliant snow]

several smaller utility self hosted server stuff

[safe dragon]

my home server definitely doesn't have the parts you should use for a power efficient server but it's fine enough

[ivory shadow]

I'm curious about getting one of those snapdragon dev boards to use as a server

[dapper sinew]

oh! youre a mod for this server?

[ivory shadow]

Still a bit too pricy for me at this point though

[pliant snow]

I was

the ARM one?

[ivory shadow]

Yeah

[safe dragon]

are there snapdragon boards that aren't arm

[pliant snow]

are they any more remarkable than any other x64 board tho

[devout trellis]

It's very warm in here. Send help.

[dapper sinew]

[ivory shadow]

I'm hoping they're way more power efficient than an x86 board for basic server work.

[pliant snow]

get back in your cupboard you

[ivory shadow]

the new devkit features the much more powerful 4.3 GHz X Elite 12-core 64-bit Armv8 Oryon processor coupled with 32GB LPDDR5x RAM and 512GB NVMe SSD, and offering a range of ports and features such as USB4 and WiFi 7.

[pliant snow]

someday i'll upgrade to wifi 6 lol

how expensive are they

[ivory shadow]

Going for $900 USD when orders open as I understand it. But that's for a dev kit so I imagine future releases will be cheaper

The kit apparently comes with a 180W power adapter, to give you an idea of how hungry it is

[pliant snow]

thats less than i thought it would be tbh

[ivory shadow]

I could do a lot with 12 arm cores and 32gb of RAM.

Probably not suitable for Plex, but all my other local stuff? Sure

[crystal wren]

I dunno, I'd be shocked if it didn't have some pretty decent video encoding hardware in it somewhere...

Encoding Resolution: 4K @ 60 Hz

Encoding Bit Depth: 10-bit

Encoding Formats: H.264 (Advanced Video Coding (AVC)), AV1, H.265 (High Efficiency Video Coding (HEVC))

Ooh.

[safe dragon]

nice

[pliant snow]

I think AV1 will be standard going forward, which is nice

[ivory shadow]

I'm more concerned about simultaneous streams than merely having the ability

[safe dragon]

should be fine

[crystal wren]

Well, it specifies nothing about that! So my guess is it can handle about 4k60 worth overall, and presumably multiple streams as long as they don't overwhelm it? Maybe?

Unless they've gone full Nvidia.

[pliant snow]

for all those 4K 60Hz films out there

[crystal wren]

The Hobbit 4.

[ivory shadow]

Never go full Nvidia

I imagine it's something like 2x 4k 30 streams, and some number of 1080 streams

It's the some number I'm curious about

But more than that, I don't expect Plex to support their hardware for transcodes right away

[safe dragon]

need that for all the 3 movies I watch a year

that's probably optimistic...

[ivory shadow]

My Plex can hit five simultaneous encodes sometimes

[safe dragon]

I've lived in this place for 3.5 years and I've still not plugged in the TV to internet or cable...

it's background decoration for my video calls

I like the idea of setting up jellyfin but I know I'd never use it

[ivory shadow]

I like the idea of jellyfin but it was a pretty terrible experience when I tried it, compared to Plex.

It couldn't handle the library size and the UI is pretty amateur in comparison

[safe dragon]

[pliant snow]

everyone seems to rag on it, but I love it. I dont have any complaints with it

[atomic musk]

if you have entry A copy missing fields from entry B, how would you expect the disabled field to work?
should a disabled entry A copying from an entry B become enabled?
should an enabled entry A copying from a disabled entry B become disabled?
(asking for your intuitive thoughts)

[lethal walrus]

what's the context?

[atomic musk]

different patch entries containing some data, those patches can be temporarily disabled in which case their data will be ignored

those entries can also "copy from" other entries, meaning the other entry will act as base data for that entry

[safe dragon]

entries upon entries…

[atomic musk]

written out like that it sounds like entry A should always override entry B... but it just feels strange for an entry to copy disabled data..

maybe that's the part I'm missing if one entry or the other is disabled, they shouldn't be merged

[safe dragon]

this all sounds very magical to me

disabled patch entries, merging entries…

[crystal wren]

Well, RustRover is fully released... and free for individual/non-commercial use.

Not as generous as the community versions of IntelliJ or PyCharm, but I'll take it.

[tropic anchor]

First attempt at writing a flood fill algorith implementation, any pointers?

[safe dragon]

functionally seems fine. I'd probably put the whole && tile is HoeDirt... etc part in a reusable named method instead of repeating it 4 times but that's nitpicking

or the true nitpick is that you're going against standard C# naming conventions by starting with a lowercase letter for the method name

[tropic anchor]

You sound like vs

I usually do instance private/protected methods lower case, everything else upper case, don't know why, it's just become a habit

[safe dragon]

as long as you're consistent I suppose

wait

[crystal wren]

Also, I see no pointers.

[safe dragon]

you're not checking if you've already been at a tile as far as I can tell, you'd be looping over tiles you already did

[tropic anchor]

Pointer scawwy

Yea, it's one caveat, but they are filtered out by the hashset

Still might be better to check performance wise I suppose

[safe dragon]

doesn't this loop infinitely?

if you check if the add on the hash set returns true if you want a simple approach

since hashset add returns false it was already in there

[tropic anchor]

Going to run it real quick, 2 secs

[safe dragon]

if you only add it to the queue if the tiles.Add returns true you should essentially be done

[tropic anchor]

Welp, it just doesn't work right now for some reason, thanks for the suggestion anyway, definitely useful

[safe dragon]

I'm sure a lot could technically be optimized with specialized data structures for vector sets and possibly even some SIMD shenanigans but I doubt it's all that performance critical

[tropic anchor]

Not generally, I'm a little worried about those giant farms, if someone decides to plant all blueberries on every tillable tile this WILL crash, but that's an edge case and I don't support it

[safe dragon]

hashing the entire tile object might be expensive idk what it looks like

[tropic anchor]

tile, just a vector, HoeDirt, complex object with a lot of properties, netdata, etc.

[safe dragon]

if it comes down to you could you benchmark I suppose. Check if there's a performance difference from simply returning a list of HoeDirt but having a separate hashset of just the vector that you use to make sure you're not revisiting the same tiles(or if you want to get fancy, a single integer with the cantor pairing instead of a vector) please ignore I was only thinking of valuetypes

[tropic anchor]

I'ma be honest, I don't understand that last part, my brain was trained on WPF with a focus on design code, but I'm definitely going to look this over a few more times (and to think this was supposed to be the easy part of this project )

[crystal wren]

Yeah, what's this for?

[tropic anchor]

I got two fairies in a row on a patch I had laid out of perfectly timed crops, so I'm making something to select which crops it can and can't insta grow

That first one was ok, but the second one pissed me off

[safe dragon]

disregard what I said if HoeDirt is a reference type btw I wasn't thinking about that

reference types are fast in a hashset

if it's a class you're probably good

[tropic anchor]

Copy, ctrl-z incoming

[safe dragon]

but yeah, only real functional remark is the whole avoid adding tiles to the queue that you've checked before thing

since this causes infinite loops otherwise

till you run out of memory and it crashes I suppose

[crystal wren]

I still need to add the paint bucket to Smart Building at some point...

When I do, I'll be making myself look bad with my food fill here!

[tropic anchor]

Got that fully implemented now, and found my issue (instance of attached crop is never equal)

[tropic anchor]

Copy mine /j

[safe dragon]

I've caused my pc to crash before with a floodfill

it's pretty exciting

[tropic anchor]

I can't luckilly, c# just throws a stack overflow exception and crashes the game

[safe dragon]

anything is possible if you believe in yourself

[crystal wren]

I feeeeel like it shouldn't be possible to cause any huge problems in Stardew with the amount of tiles that are possible...

[safe dragon]

in an ideal world you'd have a graph datastructure prepared here already that has all the valid edges for each node precomputed to avoid some checks and allocations

[crystal wren]

Those are words of competence.

I do not speak this.

[safe dragon]

I'm sure someone very good at graph theory knows very fancy ways of doing this

hell there's probably some magic to be achieved with cache locality

but that all goes beyond me

I know there's arcane wizards out there that could probably make such an algorithm orders of magnitude faster

[trim relic]

It took 3 days, but I was able login to Nexus finally.

[safe dragon]

Gratz

[tropic anchor]

For some reason it decides to not check more than one left, but that's a problem for the morning, this is enough code at 1AM for tonight

[safe dragon]

it doesn't like the left

[tropic anchor]

Nevermind, it's because for the left check, I only supply the initial tile instead of the current

[dapper sinew]

stupid pip and python code not being cross machine grumpy bear noises

[scarlet hollow]

Gotta put it all in a Docker container

[dapper sinew]

IDK how to use docker

[scarlet hollow]

For legal reasons what I said is a joke please do not Dockerize your python project

[dapper sinew]

Oop

[dapper sinew]

im trying to train my own AI model and my PC is NOT having it

send help

and cookies

[lethal walrus]

I would've thought you'd want us to send GPUs

[pliant snow]

For legal reasons, no one can stop me muhahaha

[lethal walrus]

I prefer pm2 start python3 main.py

(yes, FC is running via pm2)

[pliant snow]

what is pm2

[safe dragon]

python ain’t nodejs

this sounds illegal

using it for something else than it was intended for!

[lethal walrus]

ok but it shouldnt let me run commands then

[lethal walrus]

(the process manager, not.. that? (i have no idea what that is))

[strange copper]

Send..... cuda....

[safe dragon]

need more Cuda plz one more Cuda will fix everything

need more (PCIe) lanes

[strange copper]

If we get one more cuda we will hit 95% validation set accuracy please

[dapper sinew]

Sadly the code errored after a few minutes... So IDK if I need more yet

[trim relic]

If you need MORE GPU's then I need a second heart.

[upbeat turtle]

I have a 2070Super

Is that enough cudas?

[crystal wren]

That is 2560 CUDAs...

[upbeat turtle]

Ahh... and he only needed 1? But they work in groups of 16 or 32, no? You can't add just ONE cuda!

[dapper sinew]

AI is a resource hog

[pliant snow]

All in the name of

uh

generating recipies?

[dapper sinew]

I simply wanna have it output a python code that currently dies hello world

Does not dies, that's my PCs job

[strange copper]

Are you training a codegen AI?

i swear tho I downloaded cuda the other day and it was not that much faster training a network than on raw CPU

[safe dragon]

you downloaded cuda? how does that work

[strange copper]

i installed the drivers to let my device use cuda

[safe dragon]

oh

[strange copper]

because it is cuda-capable

i should use proper terminology probably lol

pytorch was hellbent on using the cached cpu version of itself and no amount of cache clearing or venvs could fix it so I literally ended up just installing a newer verssion of python and suddenly torch was happy to load itself

[safe dragon]

I've tried some gpu compute stuff in the past and it can be pretty insane in the right scenarios

[strange copper]

I definitely believe it can, it might just be that I had my expectations too high for what I was doing and my hardware lol

I got too disillusioned with the amoutn of headache to get pytorch working

[safe dragon]

idk much about pytorch but every time I've tried to use cuda or rocm I've had issues

for rocm I never even got it working

[strange copper]

i want to throw the blame at Windows but for all my complaining about windows i'm gonna keep using windows machines for day-to-day stuff

Never tried rocm

[safe dragon]

can't say you'd have an easier time on Linux for this issue specifically

[strange copper]

in my mind, linux is an easier time simply because the one time i used cuda on linux i didn't have to set anything up 😭 but I know that's not necessarily true

[safe dragon]

Cuda is definitely the easiest one

it's part of the default drivers

unlike rocm for amd

since everyone on Linux uses the open source mesa drivers

for amd

which doesn't support rocm, nor any reasonable opencl version for that matter

Vulkan compute shaders seem to honestly been the most reliable for me

works on any system that is reasonably modern

at a performance cost mostly

[dapper sinew]

yes

im trying to at least

cause i wanna make my own coding langauge one day and wanna have AI know it

also THIS is why i use rivo unistaller

[strange copper]

are you training on top of an existing model? or like full on from scratch

[dapper sinew]

Full scratch

[strange copper]

oh jeez 😭

[dapper sinew]

cause i need to understand how they work

granted im using AI to MAKE AI

but eh, its working :3

[strange copper]

training on top of an existing model and training a brand new model is a really similar process i will not lie lol

[dapper sinew]

idk how to train ontop

[strange copper]

it's literally just how you initialize the weights and it probably influences your hyperparams like learning rate

you gotta tell me more about your proces si'm curious now

[dapper sinew]

if you can show my a tutorial or something i can do that /gen

[safe dragon]

you have no shortage of very large ambitions huh

[strange copper]

i have no idea what you're doing lol

[dapper sinew]

its all doable once i learn, and yes

i do :3

[strange copper]

ML + compilers goes hard

Personally I don't see a reason to not train on top of an existing codegen model to learn YOUR language

but if you don't have a langugage that's hard lol

[dapper sinew]

i know i have big goals, but im gonna start small and stuff, im only messing about right now this isnt serious code given its all AI made

[strange copper]

(it's hard anyway)

The one time I trained anything we got best results training on top of an existing classifier and just tuning it for our purposes cause why redo a bunch of research way smarter people than me did

i labeled SO MANY images for that 😭

[dapper sinew]

do you know how to train AI?

cause i sure dont

[strange copper]

i hacked my way through it for work. I have only done anything related to classifiers. I'm gonna actually formally learn it in the fall

[dapper sinew]

im taking a class in w3 on AI

[strange copper]

i feel like we are using AI and ML interchangeably here

[dapper sinew]

apperenretly itll be half a year before i can do anything

[strange copper]

and ML is AI but are we talking specifically ML

[safe dragon]

and even in that only a specific niche

[strange copper]

true, the codegen niche of genai

[dapper sinew]

i think thats what i wanna learn but idk terms

basically i just want an AI that can learn what i give it and chat with me :3

[strange copper]

that's kinda different than a model that generates code in a custom language, no?

[dapper sinew]

im starting out with this first

[strange copper]

if you want ot chat with it i'm begging you to train on top of an existing LLM

actually either way please train on top of an existing model

[dapper sinew]

since there is a lot of code data i can feed to it

[strange copper]

from where?

[dapper sinew]

oh yeah i plan on that

[dapper sinew]

google!

[strange copper]

oh neat

i didn't know google published datasets

[dapper sinew]

like python and stuff i can hand pick, copy paste, and just generally find it

[strange copper]

oh not a published dataset

[dapper sinew]

oh no i mean digging through code myself

[strange copper]

i know it's for personal use but please do consider the license on the code you are using to train (also you need a LOT of examples to train something)

[dapper sinew]

google does have a dataset but its like 60 a pop per model trained

[dapper sinew]

yep, ill make sure its all MIT or CC

i think thats the two

[strange copper]

there are copyleft licenses too

[safe dragon]

please don't even entertain the idea of gathering your own dataset, you'd be in for a rude awakening

[strange copper]

that too lol

[dapper sinew]

i know that it required a TOOOOON of data

[strange copper]

i think i hand labeled several hundred images for the classifier for work and then i made a TON more synthetic images

[dapper sinew]

which is why im just doing a simple hello world test right now

i do NOT plan on a ground zero model as a real thing

gonna use open source model to train off of once i learn

but for now i like to see a simple one to see how its done

also, tensorflow is annoying on Windows

dont wanna use my GPUs huff

im having fun btw, coding is hard but rewarding

still cant do anything yet but very much having fun, not enough learned to do much

[strange copper]

maybe i should finally get around to writing that one scraping script so i can actually have the data I want for my project

[safe dragon]

you're taking a very unusual route to learning to program but if you're enjoying it I suppose that's alright

[dapper sinew]

i learn wierdly, if i cant put something into practice i cant learn it

like reading, i cant put reading into practice

[strange copper]

that's not weird, that's like the only way to learn coding lol

[dapper sinew]

so i physically cant learn by reading

[dapper sinew]

fair

[safe dragon]

learning by doing is a fundamental part of programming yes

the things you're doing are the unusual part

[dapper sinew]

i know

wont deny it

[strange copper]

crumble did you ever do a little text adventure game when you learned

[dapper sinew]

having fun is a big thing to me, and ive learned more this way than just sitting and reading, and reading, and reading

[strange copper]

i've done more reading to do stuff like ML than for anything else 😭

[safe dragon]

never did just text cause my introduction to programming was learning XNA and making a few game clones

[strange copper]

I think tho if you set your mind to it you can do just about anything so

[strange copper]

ah i see

[dapper sinew]

GIB YOU KNOWLEDGE, i shall steal your brain /j

[strange copper]

empty brain

[safe dragon]

technically I did my major in comp sci with a specialization in game technologies

ultimately ended up kinda ignoring the game tech part

but it's there on my degree

the first year had a lot of game projects

and then shifted away from it

did do 3 courses on AI

they were all essentially the same course it was pretty bad

they ended up scrapping two of em after I graduated

[strange copper]

😔

[safe dragon]

and now I'm just a silly web dev

for now... I'd like to shift away from it eventually

[strange copper]

there are lots of people who want to do web dev but i am not one of them lol

i mean i would take a web dev job over not working in CS but I did my time in web dev and I'm not sure i wanna go back

[safe dragon]

I don't mind the backend and database sides of it but front end just ain't my thing

[dapper sinew]

Mmmm cpu cause tensorflow is stupid

I may have gave it a few lines to read

[dapper sinew]

Screme

[strange copper]

Long 😭

How can you have none rows and 1 col

[cinder karma]

It has the thought it could have rows

[strange copper]

the half hour is wild

what's your performance like

is it good at its job

surely this will prevent the rate limit (it def will not)

[cinder karma]

I love calling time.sleep in my code

Then I can remove it later

And see a nice performance increase

Also, race conditions

[strange copper]

so far i don't think they're limiting me but i have fear

i shoulda opted for csv instead of json so i could periodically dump my output tho

uh oh they stopped me and I didnt even make it through "A"

surely it eventually throws an exception so it'll hit my "finally" block and dump... right.... right?

surely i don't have to keyboard interrupt

[dapper sinew]

That line at the bottom WAS it's job

[strange copper]

the part where it said lllllllllllllllllllllllllllll?

[dapper sinew]

Yes :(

[strange copper]

real tbh 😭

what's it like before you train on top?

[dapper sinew]

And I have it 2 mil lines of python saying hello world

[dapper sinew]

That's from scratch, gonna do a funny then distro hop to where I can use tensorflow aka NixOS

[strange copper]

never trained a genai, what's the data format? cause there isn't a "right answer" right? how's it know if it's going the right direction?

[dapper sinew]

It has this 2 million times in the file