For good and bad
#programmers-off-topic
gaunt wadi
yeah, it's too into you
all to disguise the fact that it's a large language model and not actually a person and will be wildly incorrect
pliant snow
Yeah, they think that having it speak in casual language will help, and its probably true
cinder karma
Because of my near perfect memory I almost never get lost
I may not be able to find my destination but I can always find my way back to my starting point
Also, I recall like, road closures and pot holes
Driving with anyone else is fun because I'll be like "don't take the left lane, it has potholes."
cinder karma
lethal walrus
Does it work as a key
ivory shadow
I want to assemble an entire keyboard of big punchable pillows
tropic anchor
Does it work as a key
I have this, it does
cinder karma
Baby
modest steppe
he slemp
worn remnant
I want to assemble an entire keyboard of big punchable pillows
"finally got my emacs set up just the way i like it"
safe dragon
everything bound to alt and ctrl like a true emacs user
dapper sinew
I've heard of emac being sometime people who hate themselves use... What is it so I can learn it for no reason than I wanna learn something to meme about
safe dragon
ok so this is already going to be considered incorrect by some people but
in its essence emacs is a text editor
a very configurable text editor
safe dragon
the defaults are absolutely miserable
and don't follow any standards you'd be used to
dapper sinew
Lol
safe dragon
most people who use emacs opt to use doom emacs or something like it
dapper sinew
Why do people say it's not a text editor
safe dragon
because it's so configurable that it can essentially do anything
some people call it an operating system, usually as a joke
I've never met an emacs user
crystal wren
I do really, really want to get to grips with vi-style controls, though.
pliant snow
i had a college professor who was a contributor to one of the mac emacs GUIs
crystal wren
Also, my joke was going to be that emacs is a mispronunciation of iMacs.
safe dragon
I can recommend learning vim controls. Not actually vim itself I'm fairly neutral on that
pliant snow
besides, everyone knows emacs stands for escape-meta-alt-control-shift
crystal wren
Yeah, I like my creature comforts too much to actually use vim. But the control style... I want that.
safe dragon
it's very very nice once you're used to it
and every editor under the sun has a vim plugin
pliant snow
I like vim, but yeah it takes some plugins to get it nice
not too many tho, i think some people go a bit overboard
to the point where you might as well use something else
safe dragon
me
I've stopped using vim for anything other than tweaking configs now though
zero plugins
safe dragon
it's pretty good
lethal walrus
Kate is nice to be fair
dapper sinew
Vim sucks (the terminal editor) nano is better... I only say this cause I don't know vim controls
cinder karma
Vim great
strange copper
vim is good for what it does but i only use it when i HAVE to
strange copper
Unhinged question (c#) time! If I have a string type name, can I attempt to cast a generic object to that type
Completely theoretical I am not building anything cursed trust me I would never do that
(Runtime cast, not compile time if that wasn't clear)
marble jewel
There are explicit and implicit cast operators you can override, but I'm not sure if it can be done with any generic object
strange copper
I'll have to mess around with it
thin estuary
Unhinged question (c#) time! If I have a string type name, can I attempt to cast...
What does this even mean
sand frost
If you have a string being type "StardewValley.Object", can you cast something to that?
(something generic)
That was my understanding, anyways
strange copper
If you have a string being type "StardewValley.Object", can you cast something t...
Yes this
thin estuary
Casting isn’t real, in a way
sand frost
The string could also be StardewValley.Character or anything else I'm assuming
sand frost
this seems like something you'd needed to entirely error-check
thin estuary
Yeah but… that makes no sense
sand frost
what if it's not a valid type?
tranquil grove
you can apparently convert objects between types (with object and Type at runtime, tbc), but I have no idea where it'd make sense to do so 
strange copper
what if it's not a valid type?
Throw an error and make it someone else's issue /j
thin estuary
I don’t even know how to explain it, but what you’re asking for doesn’t make sense
sand frost
What I'm wondering is why you'd be doing this
thin estuary
What would you do that for yeah
sand frost
But of course, you said that definitely wasn't for cursed reasons 😛
strange copper
Saving data and it's type information together
So you know what to deserialize it to
If there's a less cursed way please inform
tranquil grove
success, if this counts 
object thingToCast = 12345;
string typeName = "System.Int32, System.Private.CoreLib";
Type type = Type.GetType(typeName);
object convertedThing = Convert.ChangeType(thingToCast, type);
if (convertedThing is int intThing)
Monitor.Log($"converted to this integer: {intThing}", LogLevel.Info);```but in practice you'd probably want to know what type a given serialized field* is by some other means
thin estuary
Your code literally did nothing
tranquil grove
true, I should've made it some other compatible class, since it's int before and after
thin estuary
thingToCast is int intThing would do the same thing
and this seems to me like something else completely
anyway, that's already what Newtonsoft does for non-sealed types, pretty sure? maybe it has to be configured, can't remember
it serializes any object, and also serializes its' GetType().FullName or whatever, in a $type field
sand frost
So you know what to deserialize it to
what are you serializing? usually if you need a custom class people register it with SpaceCore, but also you can usually avoid custom classes tbh
strange copper
Shhhh this is offtopic
tranquil grove
(version that technically does something)
object thingToCast = 12345.6789f;
string typeName = "System.Int32, System.Private.CoreLib";
Type type = Type.GetType(typeName);
object convertedThing = Convert.ChangeType(thingToCast, type);
Monitor.Log($"convertedThing.GetType(): {convertedThing.GetType()}", LogLevel.Info);```
`[TestMod2] convertedThing.GetType(): System.Int32`that would do something, yes, but isn't what is being asked for
strange copper
People are gonna specify types for serialization to json and for reading specific keys but I thought it'd be neat to be able to iterate over keys of different types. But the user is gonna need to know what type to cast values to if they could be anything
tranquil grove
my response was to the much more vague initial question 
thin estuary
sorry sorry Esca
tranquil grove
more to the point, yeah, you can do some slightly more helpful tricks with Newtonsoft types if you need a single field to accept multiple types, but it's still pretty necessary to know something about what's coming in
strange copper
When it is originally serialized it's gonna know the type if that helps
thin estuary
People are gonna specify types for serialization to json and for reading specifi...
if you're working with object, you don't need to cast anything - what you need to do is construct the instance of a correct type
if you're working with a generic type, you just additionally cast to it
tranquil grove
e.g. FTM has a nonsense list of object spawn info* that can be an object, string, or integer, which it just tests for ahead of use
thin estuary
when working with values of unknown runtime types, the notion of "casting" doesn't make sense
strange copper
I've never messed with newtonsoft or serialization before so sorry if I'm not super clear
tranquil grove
no worries, but yeah, I'm not entirely clear on the intended format 
strange copper
i mean i've serialized stuff to json but like i'm not a c# type system or newtonsoft knower
ok here:
- person A serializes an object of type MyTypeA to json under the key "key1"
- person A serializes an object of type MyTypeB to json under the key "key2"
- person B wants to iterate through the dict containing "key1" and "key2", and get the key-value pairs. But person B would like to be able to treat the deserialized values as their respective types of MyTypeA and MyTypeB (through a cast of some kind?)
thin estuary
basically:
- on serialization, you want to store whatever properties your unknown object has, along with the type name in a field like
$type - on deserialization, you need to read the
$type, find that type in some way (check all assemblies etc), find a constructor you can use, invoke the constructor to get a correct instance of that type. then, fill the remaining properties of the newly created objects with whatever else was serialized
and none of this involves casting
well, there will be casting, the moment the user wants to iterate over that dictionary and actually use the correct types
because keys will have to be a common type
strange copper
tone is hard over the internet so i want to preface this by saying i'm not trying to argue at all, just understand. But in this method how is person B going to know what type the value is after deserialization? how is that information communicated?
thin estuary
and their common type is object, most likely
tranquil grove
- if person B is doing something that can accept
objects of any type at all, they can just leave each one as anobject; the data is technically still there, even if their code doesn't know what it is - if they can only handle certain types, or need to do something based on the type, you can test for that
(it may help to think of them in terms of inheritance, likeif (objectA is Item item){} else if (objectA is Character char){}etc)
newtonsoft types may also help because you can interact with them directly as things like JObject for any random {} class
(iirc, anyway, it's been a while since I dove into that)
strange copper
so newtonsoft can give back an object that by polymorphism is actually of type MyTypeA at runtime and you can pattern match for it with is?
thin estuary
it has to
strange copper
and it remembers what you serialized it as originally and handles the deserialization type?
thin estuary
if you're serializing a known sealed type, it doesn't have to store that info, because you're giving it the type on both serialization and deserialization
tranquil grove
I guess what it loads into depends on the context where it's deserialized, unless you give it type definitions* like Shockah mentioned above 
in my context I did some parsing to see whether each object could be certain types, basically
thin estuary
if it's a type that involves polymorphism, $type is used
strange copper
thank you all for your explanations and examples
thin estuary
otherwise it would be impossible to deserialize, other than maybe into a generic Dictionary<string, object>
thin estuary
i guess in theory it could give you anonymous objects...
gilded hound
It would come back as an object, you have to enable TypeNameHandling
strange copper
the newtonsoft docs sure are something
thin estuary
i'm not sure TypeNameHandling is a required option if it can tell polymorphism is involved
gilded hound
OH I see, yeah since both MyTypeA and MyTypeB are available in the same context, newtonsoft should auto serialize the TypeNames
supple ether
the newtonsoft docs sure are something
I was in there the other day. I think it's hilarious that they're still using a 2010 meme for their logo
scarlet hollow
Update: both lexical-vscode and elixir-tools.vscode (next-ls) crash on load. Back to elixir-ls, I guess 😕
safe dragon
not ideal
scarlet hollow
Yeah...........
tranquil grove
(back from getting distracted again)
in case it helps as a reference, here's most of FTM's newtonsoft-related nonsense, which does deserialize something as a Dictionary<string,object> 
https://github.com/Esca-MMC/FarmTypeManager/blob/master/FarmTypeManager/Utility/Spawning/Monsters/ValidateMonsterTypes.cs#L216
numbers can be checked with is long, lists with JArray, etc, in cases like that
(better to actually have known types for fields or serialize them, though)
gilded hound
yup. Without the context during serialization (Or in the case of FTM which is user generated), its just pattern matching. Could also write your own JsonConverter but its not worth the effort unless you really want clean code, since it just moves the code to a converter.
tranquil grove
yeah, I think the only jsonconverter I used was in something else for formatting's sake
ivory shadow
I've got a few custom JsonConverters, one for doing discriminated types without the glaring vulnerability of accepting a type name.
supple ether
ah, JToken. I have a love/hate relationship with them
tranquil grove
(actually nevermind, it was for a stardew time class, either predating the one built into SMAPI or just because it made deserializing times easier)
strange copper
yup. Without the context during serialization (Or in the case of FTM which is us...
I've got context at serialization time, just potentially not at deserialization time (except it appears newtonsoft will remember the type information so it may be fine)
gilded hound
internal class ReadonlyContractResolver : DefaultContractResolver
{
internal ReadonlyContractResolver()
{
SerializeCompilerGeneratedMembers = true;
}
protected override JsonProperty CreateProperty(MemberInfo member, MemberSerialization memberSerialization)
{
var prop = base.CreateProperty(member, memberSerialization);
prop.Writable = true;
return prop;
}
}
This is my favorite thing. Deserializing read-only properties.
tranquil grove
I've got context at serialization time, just potentially not at deserialization ...
yeah, if you're generating the json yourself it's probably fine, my case was "content.json where people write dictionaries with flexible value types"
(and converters are generally like "my json has a number in it, give me this specific class")
supple ether
one of many reasons I'm glad to have retired aerocore is the absolutely terrible thing I tried to do with the particle system
thin estuary
@ocean wolf what are you using Pintail for, and why .NET Framework 4.7.2?
supple ether
one of many reasons I'm glad to have retired aerocore is the absolutely terrible...
the data was a game asset but the actual data was stored as object and then translated into an actual behavior class instance by string name. which meant I had this horrible hacky thing where it had to try its best to convert a mystery object into a reflection-obtained type. I think I've learned my lesson from that one
ocean wolf
<@289495654672367616> what are you using Pintail for, and why .NET Framework 4.7...
Ah I was trying to share some APIs across some mods and utility assemblies, without a hard reference to each other, and I was trying to see if I can also use the lib on older packages
I know SMAPI can do that but I also want to learn if I can use pintail directly
thin estuary
you're saying mods. so why Framework 4.7.2?
ocean wolf
you're saying mods. so why Framework 4.7.2?
I was using SMAPI for mods to share API, but I got curious if I can use pintail on other packages, which are not mods
ocean wolf
I can get it to work by bumping c# version but those would also require consumer ends to also bump c# lang version
thin estuary
if you're still using .NET Framework 4.x in 2024, then you're either a maniac or using Unity - either way, it sucks
ocean wolf
if you're still using .NET Framework 4.x in 2024, then you're either a maniac or...
I agree, to both
Anyways thanks for the awesome lib, it works like butter except I don't have the knife :))
thin estuary
i'm not sure if i'm using anything that is specifically .NET 5+, honestly
and ehh, personally i hate a lot of how it works
i'm glad it's helping people
but man
it really needs a rewrite and a better approach to some things
gilded hound
It's possible to compile for 4.7.2, there's a few changes necessary but I did compile it last year.
ocean wolf
It's working correctly if I bump consumer assembly's c# version to 9+, with polysharp which I have already been using
but always wondered if I can do without
rain lotus
So I'm trying out vss for the first time and I get this cute lil lightbulb on a lot of my code suggesting that I sort properties
Doing the thing makes my whole json laid out in reverse to what it should. Am I just gonna ignore these kind little lightbulbs forever or is there a way to set it to the format jsons should be for stardew
Posted in off topic bc its just a software question
pliant snow
I have never once found vscodes lightbulb suggestions useful
rain lotus
Okay good to know, lightbulbs are on but there's no thought behind them
gilded hound
I automatically tune them out. Forgot they were ever there 🤣
rain lotus
They're very cutely drawn! I wanted to trust them! /lh
safe dragon
what do you mean in that it's laid out in reverse?
does it start at Z?
quick actions (the lightbulb) can be pretty useful at times
just depends on the language server you're using
most just as a way to save some typing here and there sometimes
rain lotus
what do you mean in that it's laid out in reverse?
If I do all the changes it says to do, format ends up the very last line. Then my config, then my tokens, then my actions at the very top
safe dragon
as far as I know the quick action for sorting properties just looks at the alphabet and doesn't look at anything else
I mean json doesn't have a whole lot more to base it on
strange copper
off topic so it's here but relevant to captcha convo in #making-mods-general : this was part of a captcha i had to do once
supple ether
triceratops crab?
sand frost
Triceracrab
strange copper
it was a spider
i failed it like 12 times before i realized twitter just really didn't want me to make an account
sand frost
That’s not at all a spider wtf!
Clearly Twitter firing most of their staff has had consequences lol
strange copper
oh the triceratops spider is the one you are supposed to click
it said click the one with the mismatched head and body
sand frost
It also has the wrong number of legs for a spider
scarlet hollow
Really clever use of filter and blend mode on the Google Labs website to add a glow to the beaker animation
/srs btw. I don't think I'd have ever thought about reusing the video with mix-blend-mode: screen to accomplish that.
rain lotus
So I'm experimenting with VS for writing up game code and someone here suggested I try ilspy or another program with basically the same name to sort through the decompiled game to see when certain things are used and such. But uh.... ilspy is not for the 2022 edition of vs. Is there a program people are using on this edition that does what ilspy does?
cinder karma
IlSpy is independent software?
thin estuary
it exists in the form of an extension too, but yeah, the people most likely meant the standalone app
gilded hound
(Also ilspy 2022 exists) But its really just a shortcut to open something in ilspy
rain lotus
I swear I spent an hour looking for that 😐
Oh I see how I messed it up
For whatever reason when I sort to show things tagged decompiler the only version of ilspy that shows up is the 2019 edition
gilded hound
Yeah the 2022 version literally just opens stuff up in the ilspy app
because visual studio 2022 already ships with ilspy decompiling
If you right click on something, there's a little option for Go To Definition. That's done using the ilspy decompilation engine
(The app comes with features like analyze so I still recommend it)
rain lotus
Okay so now I go find the actual ilspy program and begin messing around in it got it thank you all so much
cinder karma
I also feel like I get less confused
When it is separated
And I'm not digging through nine million VS tabs
rain lotus
That makes a lot of sense too
bronze idol
(typescript enjoyers appreciation post, that is all)
i didn't realize 2022 ships with ilspy decomp, TIL.
i have used it and dotpeek for tweaking binaries, i think they're vaguely almost the same thing.
if it weren't for the tweaking/saving of modified dlls directly it sounds like i could get away from needing the app.
flint frigate
@bronze idol My problem with JS is that its too dynamic for me, C++ is static. There's one way to do a thing and it reads up to down in order
Javascript throws all that out the window and lets you put things ANYWHERE
And it bothers me
It makes me cry
bronze idol
yeah, you just kinda do what you want. it isn't really about type safety.
strange copper
C++ will let you read 13 random bytes from somewhere in dynamic memory even if it's not set
bronze idol
mmmm blown pointers
strange copper
C++ will give you control to do MORE cursed stuff
bronze idol
that's why typescript is widely enjoyed; you can always strap type safety on.
safe dragon
not its enums though
bronze idol
personally been enjoying learning about blazor, but that's weapons grade koolaid
flint frigate
that's why typescript is widely enjoyed; you can always *strap type safety* on.
I did try typescript, but without understanding Javascript, I basically knew half of it
So I didn't really UNDERSTAND ya know?
bronze idol
look, i have to use mongo at work (not for long hahahahaha) and i'm sort of forced to use js in shells
strange copper
As in mongodb?
bronze idol
ye
strange copper
I want to like mongodb
bronze idol
but i do secretly love being able to do stuff like db.facility.find({}).toArray().map(f => f.StaffAssignments).reduce((a, b) => a.concat.b, []);
don't it's a trap.
strange copper
don't it's a trap.
Ok cause I don't 💀
bronze idol
it's not the silver bullet people make it out to be.
safe dragon
We use mongodb at work, we use the c# package for it though so no javascript
bronze idol
aye, we use the mongo driver but most native admin shells are js
safe dragon
right
bronze idol
having said that, we were hamstrung by a sql-hating architect into using mongo
we're a very relational data "thing"
it was a mistake to avoid sql
safe dragon
our mongodb is only used for fairly unstructured state we essentially need to dump somewhere for reloading state it's very simple in nature
bronze idol
oh you mean WHAT IT WAS INTENDED TO DO?! lmao
strange copper
What do we think of neo4j. Are there any neo4j enjoyers here
bronze idol
you're so lucky to actually be using the correct tech stack for your problem scope!
safe dragon
idk anything about neo4j tbh
bronze idol
same
safe dragon
for the most part we just use a gigantic overgrown MSSQL database
strange copper
I've never worked anywhere that's used a graph db but I think they're very cool
safe dragon
I've read about them but never used em
I always just go for a regular relational database
it's simple and more than good enough
bronze idol
same. it's all i know, really. i mean i know mongo now but we use it relationally so it's optimized relationally and it's a misuse of mongo
bronze idol
we're converting back to sql, it is long awaited
we fired that arch last year
we're having to pay his many debts
strange copper
Graph dbs are fun for networks and similarity and clustering and stuff
safe dragon
we looked into using Atlas for search but our relational database is so complex that atlas literally just does not support doing that
bronze idol
mssql full text indexing an option?
safe dragon
for some situations, yeah
elastic search has become our go to
for more complex needs
bronze idol
search is a problem we don't have much. our needs are very simple at a user level.
i reckon we could come up with more complex problems to solve but we haven't yet
safe dragon
search is a fundamental part of much of our software and especially the webshops
bronze idol
yeah. we're medtech. as we get more into ML and analytics stuff we'll likely have to deal with something tangential to search, broadly, but not literally search
more like.. correlative querying or how to objectively relate domains that are classically not related
if that makes sense
safe dragon
yeah
bronze idol
it doesn't to me, trying to think of a better way to articulate that. but the only things we have to search for are like.. patient name and social really
a better example would be like.. taking freeform data and objectifying it to a machine state. like detecting the words "patient on oxygen" and all its variations to objectify the boolean: IsPatientOnOxygen
et al
so it's search adjacent, if you think about it
if you squint lol
safe dragon
i remember some software thing being presented to me somewhere about being able take natural written doctor's notes and turning them into more concrete data automatically
no idea if it was any good
bronze idol
yeah. that's honestly a space where AI can do some good. dictation or writing transcription, up to and including digitization.
it's one of the few places i'd consider allowing AI to get a foothold, as long as the information was promised to be consumed ethically
if at all
we recently interviewed a team doing AI transcription for something, up to the point that it integrated with your EMR, did data entry in very specific ways
conceptually cool, but i'm skeptical of anything AI. it's usually 3 LLMs in a trenchcoat
safe dragon
same
we've had management talk about AI since that hype started but we haven't done anything with it so far
tbh management isn't even sure what it'd do
they just want AI
bronze idol
find something contrived to procedurally predict and then you get to say your app has predictive analytics (???) profit
buzzword city. like ajax
safe dragon
I think the one thing they've said where I can see the use in theory of an AI model is our module that automatically tries to figure out how much you should restock of every item in your warehouses
but on the other hand clients seem to have very specific niche demands for that and you can't really finetune an AI like that usually
bronze idol
you know what we figured we could use AI for? chatbot for support and conveyance of knowledgebase topics that have existing documentation. like train an LLM on our company protocols and helpful FAQ stuff, do something for the user that is a win-win. 24/7 support with some way to bucket the unresolved requests so we can satisfy them. there's lots of reasonable applications outside the increasingly popular plagiarism engine.
i think it's not that people lack the creativity to use it responsibly; we just have to get over the hurdle of immoral loss leaders using it irresponsibly.
it gives the whole thing a stigma
but we still have to give it crap and stay vigilant
safe dragon
I think we considered something like that too
bronze idol
the important stipulation at our corp is just that it can't replace a person
it makes our people's lives easier, less phone calls. but you still need a human in that seat. someone's gotta train the bot and field the unresolved stuff.
too many companies are seeing it as some kind of bold cost cutting initiative rather than being a quality of life improvement for their people
safe dragon
I mean they'll just reduce the number of support people they hire to the breaking point where support is constantly handling the unresolved requests
bronze idol
you're likely not wrong. it makes things redundant by nature. i think philosophically it's a dilemma. do you make a person do tedious, robot things because it's the right thing to do for them financially
it stands to reason there's a finite number of novel problems, in a situation like support, over any length of time. so yes, someone's getting fired if the robot is taking the majority of the easy ones.
this all assumes the robot doesn't just fail to deliver good outcomes
our support team, anecdotally, is small, and overworked by their own reports. the amount of good the AI will do is dubious at best
and "fire" is a mischaracterization. "made redundant" does really mean what it's supposed to here
the place i work is prone to moving you to a different position rather than cutting you loose, but companies are inherently worker hostile so this isn't something i say gladly. not really fond of boot
eager dune
I am moving tomorrow
low dome
Am trying 2 make farming game just like stardew but I can't figure out tilemaps
potent jay
im losing my mind, im getting a null exception thrown from the try section of my try/catch block. what is the handler for the catch, you might ask? why, a NullReferenceException, of course. im gonna go watch tv and think about life
safe dragon
is it async code
pliant snow
Time to actually finish this project I'm going to start, I swear
safe dragon
good luck
pliant snow
an important function
pliant snow
I actually have an idea for a godot project, but I wanted to do this first
gotta wait long enough until I've forgotten all my godot, as is tradition
safe dragon
"tf is a node"
pliant snow
it's really caught on as a 3x5 font, I see it in a lot of random places
safe dragon
can't imagine you could make a font smaller than that and still be remotely usable
3x4...
pliant snow
pliant snow
consessions had to be made
tropic jungle
how is this readable
i mean
it is readable
i don't understand how i can read it
pliant snow
✨ magic ✨
ivory shadow
Your brain brains good
scarlet hollow
pliant snow
Me: Hey new guy, this commit is doing a lot of different things, it might be best to split it up if you can
New guy: No problem, I've split it up into seven different commits, here you go
safe dragon
he did what was asked of him
pliant snow
that he did
low dome
I ought to learn godot if I'm ever gonna make a stardew copy
eager yoke
During my time developing a mod for Minecraft, it got REALLY frustrating finding a mod I wanted to use as reference but its Fabric/Quilt and I'm using Forge
On the one hand I'm glad the community finally has more choice and the forge team isn't being mistreated by the lead dev anymore. On the other, it makes learning to mod a freaking nightmare
But I digress, my worldgen mod finally FULLY works
Now I'm dealing with getting the Warden to swim
scarlet hollow
Me: Hey new guy, this commit is doing a lot of different things, it might be bes...
I was going to make a follow-on comment about how the PR process at my current company sucks, but then I realized that describing it would require like three paragraphs of backstory to understand why we do things the way we do and why someone in the distant past thought it was a good idea.
safe dragon
lmao
our pr process is simple
open pr -> get approval from 1 dev and 1 tester -> it's merged gratz
scarlet hollow
Yeah the problem I have is basically that someone decided to split out a separate “UI” “component” “library” for our front-end team. So most changes require two PRs, one to modify the UI components (or build a new one! We have like 10 different modal dialogs! It’s great!!!!) and another to pull them into the actual front-end project
Except we don’t import into the front-end project from a GitHub link or something; we import from Artifactory. Guess what the CI/CD pipeline does?
It doesn’t deploy to Artifactory, that’s for sure! You have to do that manually before you PR, so the PR process for the UI library is literally just SVN, since everyone makes changes on different things simultaneously, and then we end up with package version 1.5.230 which has Dev A’s changes, and 1.5.231 which has Dev B’s changes but not Dev A’s changes
I hate it here
safe dragon
I don't even understand what is going on there
safe dragon
even if you want a separated component library, if it's only used by 1 project you might as well just put it in the same repository tbh
can always move it out later if necessary
scarlet hollow
The original ambition was to make it reusable for multiple projects, and on paper it is, but in practice all but one of the projects just uses the basic UI primitives, and then people have built on top of them inside of the UI repo because “this is where the UI stuff goes”
safe dragon
I think you need more dialog box components
strange copper
what about another card
scarlet hollow
I think you need more dialog box components
Hell yeah, hell yeah hell yeah hell yeah
safe dragon
have a completely separate component for each possible combinations of buttons on the dialog instead of being able to configure those in one
scarlet hollow
I think you need more dialog box components
We have a modal dialog which confirms deletion of a specific type of database entity, because the logic for calling the API to mutate the database is inside the component code for the dialog aaaaaaaaaaa
But of course we still have to type the component to accept arbitrary strings and localization
safe dragon
ah yes I too bundle my business logic with my components so it's nicely separated for when we need this specific exact usecase again
pliant snow
our pr process is simple
open pr -> get approval from 1 dev and 1 tester -> it's...
woah you test commits
safe dragon
prs yes
scarlet hollow
ah yes I too bundle my business logic with my components so it's nicely separate...
Lmfao exactly
safe dragon
we have 3 testers at work they have long lost all joy in life
much like the developers
safe dragon
no they can't
scarlet hollow
What the FUCK IS AN SDET ANYWAY?! 
safe dragon
we don't have enough testers so product owners end up testing a bunch of stuff
but they don't know how to automate tests and are generally just not as good at it
scarlet hollow
but they don't know how to automate tests and are generally just not as good at ...
This is so validating
When I joined last year I found some UI test code that was testing the MFA pin code boxes by going, basically
document.querySelectorAll(“.pin-code-box”).forEach((v, i) => v.value = i+1)
In order to type out 123456
Instead of, you know, focusing the first box and the typing the full code, like a user would do???
Like, it passes, but you’ve completely missed the point
scarlet hollow
It was e2e and the company hasn’t built a method for us to automate getting an auth token in our tests 
So we log in manually ✨
safe dragon
have you considered like... selenium
pliant snow
cant use third party libaries, that requires legal approval
scarlet hollow
have you considered like... selenium
Oh, nah, what I mean is like, at prior companies I’ve had a testing harness that exposes, like
const token = API._unsafeGetSessionToken(process.env.TEST_USERNAME, process.env.TEST_PASSWORD)
document.setCookie(‘sessionAuth’, token)
seems reasonable
scarlet hollow
But my current company doesn’t have that, so we have to go
$$(“.login-button”).click()
Await waitForLoad()
$$(“.username-field”).type(process.env.TEST_USERNAME)
// repeat for password
// click the button
// conditionally handle MFA prompt
// oops, the login team added an interstitial for passkeys, gotta dismiss that
is the endpoint where tokens are requested not available to the testing application?
scarlet hollow
Nope, not really, because from our perspective, the code underpinning the login flow is a black box. We don’t own it, and it may change without warning
The login flow is SSR as well
Could we try to scrape our own company’s login page and fake a request? Yeah. But that’s basically what we have now, just with extra steps and way more brittle
safe dragon
i mean yeah you'd want something actually intended
scarlet hollow
Right. But try getting that on the agenda at a F500 company
safe dragon
I write for both the front end and the back end so when I need endpoints for something I can just add em
we have a generalized login endpoint. The implementation behind the scene changes but the api is consistent
kinda the point of apis I suppose
scarlet hollow
I write for both the front end and the back end so when I need endpoints for som...
Yeah, and herein lies the pain of being in such a large company that you’re essentially an oauth client of yourself
Because we have backend engineers on our team, but none of us have the ability to bypass the login flow
And creating an automation endpoint would probably have to go through multiple phases of review to ensure it couldn’t be misused to bypass MFA outside of the very specific e2e cases it’s designed for
And at that point the cost-benefit analysis turns into “fuck it, whatever”, and every team writes their own e2e automation to navigate the login flow
safe dragon
efficient
scarlet hollow
I wish I had even a tiny amount of influence over it
safe dragon
I'm not sure there's any application at my company that I haven't worked on at this point
the webshops I suppose
scarlet hollow
What’s the size of your company if you don’t mind me asking?
safe dragon
130 ish people + 3 outsourced teams of like 5 ish people each
scarlet hollow
Okay that makes sense. Most of the positive experiences I’ve had in this industry are at companies that size
My current company’s total engineering headcount is north of 10,000
safe dragon
wild to me
safe dragon
I always wonder what's even going on at businesses that big. Like there's so many companies that essentially make like 1 product and then somehow have over 100 engineers
and I'm just like... what are they even doing?
tbh with the sheer number of people that got fired when the investors got scared I think a lot of companies were actually employing more people than makes sense
I wonder what percentage of the employees of a company like netflix are support
13,000 employees. As far as I can tell the actual product hasn't meaningfully changed in a lot of years with pretty much no new functionality added
you'd need a bunch of people to manage the server infrastructure and a few devs are definitely necessary
but
pliant snow
we have like five different departments in different sectors which all work more or less independently. We're a hardware company tho, so we make a whole bunch of different actual products plus all the software that runs on them, not to mention all the support, sales, IT, security, etc
safe dragon
yeah that's why I wonder how many of the employees at tech companies are actually developers, it's gotta be a small percentage
pliant snow
I get the impression most of the people in my actual department are engineering, but I dont see much of the support departments at all
safe dragon
I'd guess around 60% of the company I work for is support and consultants
maybe even 70%
there's only 3 people at sales which I find amusing
pliant snow
ew consultants
safe dragon
consultant in this context is essentially dedicated support for specific clients. Like the clients that are like multimillion euro business get their own dedicated consultant they can contact instead of dealing with support
those consultants are experts on that specific client's needs and in theory the one we also go to if we need to know something about their workflow or what they want
one of em recently got fired for fraud so that was fun
cinder karma
Nice
safe dragon
we used to have a security adviser or something but I had no idea what she did and when she quit they never actually got a replacement and nothing changed as far as I could tell
pliant snow
oh somethings changing, you'll only find out once its too late
safe dragon
she didn't even know how to share her screen during a meeting
had zero technical knowledge
she mostly just sent emails every once sending us news articles about how some company got hacked and that we need to stay alert
pliant snow
okay maybe she wasnt doing much
safe dragon
actual security vulnerabilities are reported by IT
she's also the wife of my manager
so
some strings were pulled I imagine
pliant snow
whattt nooo
safe dragon
kinda impressive that I work for a tech company but most of management is seemingly completely computer illiterate
pliant snow
or as theyre more commonly known, "management"
modest jewel
101110010101
pliant snow
gasp
safe dragon
have you considered 40 gpus
pliant snow
but why
safe dragon
to look at on a shelf
safe dragon
none of these pages say anything about whether they support amd gpus or not
considering they keep mentioning cuda I'm guessing no
I suppose I can give it a shot
pliant snow
what do you even do with the AI
candid pilot
i dont like ai
safe dragon
I don't dislike ai itself but I dislike a bunch of recent ai trends
dapper sinew
what do you even do with the AI
i just use it as a friend 
i wanna have it eventually be able to control my pc via voice commands
pliant snow
I dont know how to tell you this but you can do that now without AI
dapper sinew
i dont like ai
fair, the current trend of AI stuff is off putting even to me
safe dragon
dapper sinew
I dont know how to tell you this but you can do that now without AI
i know, ive found a program that does what i wnat via voice perefectly, so i have less of a reason to use AI
pliant snow
those are some weird ass benchmarks
dapper sinew
but its also the only thing ive found that can use all 3 GPUs and 128 GB of ram
(i like testing my PC :3 )
pliant snow
you can set up SLI (does SLI still exist)
safe dragon
not really
pliant snow
SLI is windows only?
dapper sinew
the program is to my knowledge
dapper sinew
does NVlink take any card?
safe dragon
no
pliant snow
from the "NV" im guessing nvidia only
safe dragon
yes and even then only their enterprise gpus
safe dragon
for consumer hardware sli type tech is essentially dead
just gotta be willing to spend several thousands on enterprise parts
dapper sinew
i sadly am not(yet)
id rather get a TPU first
the day QPUs come out is the day im gonna be happy
pliant snow
it can do really small calculations really quickly
safe dragon
I mean, quantum processing tech is already commercially available through ibm but due to how it works I find it highly unlikely it'll ever be something one can actually buy instead of rent computing time
most people don't have liquid cooling and a vacuum chamber inside a faraday cage inside their homes
dapper sinew
i mean , im on Linux so there probably IS a way to have all GPUs being used by just... changing a setting lol
dapper sinew
I mean, quantum processing tech is already commercially available through ibm bu...
wait really? i thought that was lab only still
pliant snow
most people don't have liquid cooling and a vacuum chamber inside a faraday cage...
I've got a faucet, a vacuum, and a microwave
dapper sinew
oh cool!
dapper sinew
how did you get that running btw? it says bend not found for me
safe dragon
did you not run the second install command
candid pilot
fair, the current trend of AI stuff is off putting even to me
wait i should clarify i actually hate ai. so much
candid pilot
no thats fine. that's just logic yk
dapper sinew
wait i should clarify i actually hate ai. so much
which is totally fair !
candid pilot
yeah :(
dapper sinew
i truely only use it for fun and cause i like seeing things grow, its like seeing a child grow to me since its the closest thing i have to one right now... i know thats probably wierd but meh, probably the autism hyperfocusing on it
safe dragon
runescape is my child
pliant snow
it is past your time but somehow not dead
dapper sinew
just installed it
its erroring for me thats why, 
safe dragon
best guess is some incompatible version of gcc/clang
dapper sinew
i shall install and update them all then
dapper sinew
best guess is some incompatible version of gcc/clang
no dice, oh well ill watch more vids on it and see if i missed something
crystal wren
safe dragon
nice
candid pilot
yay
dapper sinew
best guess is some incompatible version of gcc/clang
what version are you using
safe dragon
you should have rustup
it's how you install rust
or at least how you should install rust
dapper sinew
ok
safe dragon
dapper sinew
ahhh thats where its different
pliant snow
does it need to be nightly
safe dragon
yeah
pliant snow
your nightly is from january, it might be worth updating then trying again
safe dragon
could run rustup update at least
running your arch package updates won't do much singe rustup is managing your rust versioning
pliant snow
-Syu will update the Rust installer program (rustup), but you need to tell rustup itself to update Rust
dapper sinew
ahhh ok
safe dragon
I wonder where you're getting a strange january version of rust from
dapper sinew
Linux is wierd but so lovely
pliant snow
Try rustup update nightly
safe dragon
rustup update should update all toolchains
safe dragon
yeah
dapper sinew
Try `rustup update nightly`
no difference
safe dragon
probably messed around with it at some point
dapper sinew
maybe but i just installed it today, probably did it wrong honestly
pliant snow
I have a nightly from 2022
safe dragon
rustup toolchain uninstall [toolchain-name] should work according to --help
pliant snow
Which is very interesting as this OS install is younger than 2022
safe dragon
lmao
candid pilot
Linux is wierd but so lovely
i love it lmao
dapper sinew
`rustup toolchain uninstall [toolchain-name]` should work according to `--help`
it auto installed itself 
candid pilot
what distro?
dapper sinew
ive been avoiding that
safe dragon
why do you have some rust toolchain toml anyway in that folder?
dapper sinew
why do you have some rust toolchain toml anyway in that folder?
idk 
candid pilot
mint cinnamon <--
dapper sinew
cinnamon is a nice desktop
candid pilot
i like it
dapper sinew
i prefer Hyprland
safe dragon
did you clone the bend project for some reason?
I too am on hyprland
and arch
as far as eliminating variables go we're doing well
dapper sinew
did you clone the bend project for some reason?
yes
candid pilot
oh hyprland looks kind of cool as hell
candid pilot
im on Arch (btw) /j
/j? are you actually on arch or
dapper sinew
but its super nice once you set it up
safe dragon
hyprland ain't my first tiling window manager 
dapper sinew
/j? are you actually on arch or
i am, just the meme of Arch people saying thay are on Arch allll the time
pliant snow
I finally uninstalled hyprland lol
dapper sinew
i am, just the meme of Arch people saying thay are on Arch allll the time
im trying not to do that
dapper sinew
I mean I sure didn't
so how do i do the thing
pliant snow
its comfy
dapper sinew
having to share ur screen traumatized you <:hc_pensive:901611983378481183>
thats one reason i have both plasma and hyprland
i switch between em
safe dragon
so how do i do the thing
just run the install things from anywhere on your system
you don't need the source project
think of cargo install as a package manager that finds the package online
dapper sinew
would you be willing to VC in here and watch me? so that i can be told when im doing something wrong
safe dragon
it's past midnight so I'd like to avoid vc
dapper sinew
alrighty!
so
cargo +nightly install bend-lang```or install something else?
oh! they have a discord
dapper sinew
gonna ask them there, they probably know more
trim relic
I've never felt so called out.
trim relic
I've never done anything with C# before. I'm used to Rust.
dapper sinew
i can give you the code block to make a new .net 6 lib if thats what you need
trim relic
i can give you the code block to make a new .net 6 lib if thats what you need
That'd be awesome. I have programming experiance but I learn by example.
dapper sinew
dotnet new classlib -f net6.0 -o <ModName>
then you go into it with vs Code (or cd) and do this
dotnet add package Pathoschild.Stardew.ModBuildConfig --version 4.1.1
VSCode i dont know how to use the inteface for so i do my coding in it but everything else from terminal
that includes compiling C# from terminal
which is apperently not normal? idk though multiple different responces there
(we should move to #making-mods-general btw)
cause this is stardew related
supple ether
TIL MethodImplOptions.Synchronized is a thing. Gonna have to remember that; could definitely be useful
ivory shadow
Decided to do performance testing for converting my GSQ delegates into native GSQ delegates tonight.
Pro: I learned more about IL and invoking methods.
Con: The experimental IL is literally the same speed as some C# I wrote in 20 seconds.
sonic mirage
Pro: You learned you weren't writing silly C#
ivory shadow
True, I'll take that.
tropic anchor
Thinks about making a minecraft mod once
cinder karma
Yes, LabVIEW, I don't want to know where in my fuckinf block diagram this control IS
(There should be something in the context menu but it doesn't seem to always work, it's greyed out for me rn.)
marble jewel
*Thinks about making a minecraft mod once*
I got that too, and they also somehow started offering dedicated hosting for Stardew Valley servers, but I haven’t looked into how that works exactly
tropic anchor
I got that too, and they also somehow started offering dedicated hosting for Sta...
It's weird, and imo, doesn't fit with the game. Either way, I'm not about to have a BisectHosting banner on my mod pages
strange copper
"the program runs properly once every 10 times" is the worst bug when multiple threads are involved
pliant snow
the program only works if the user is within 500 miles
tropic anchor
The program only works on sundays between 4 and 6 on public networks
strange copper
the program only works if the user is within 500 miles
sadly i may not be within 500 miles of the database 😔
for whatever reason i was not allowed to create one in the center nearest to me
cinder karma
What
strange copper
the organization that my subscription is under did not allow me to create a resource group in the server i'm closest to lol
I had to make it one region over
my null pointer is unfortunately not related to my location
cinder karma
What if it is?
strange copper
for some reason java thinks i can't get the next element out of a resultset even though I told it to check if it was before the first row in the result set and only try and read if so 💀
it probably has to do with me not knowing how this library works at all because we never discussed it until they said "ok haha big project"
ivory shadow
the program only works if the user is within 500 miles
Now that's a story I hadn't seen referenced in a long time.
(If anyone is unfamiliar: https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles)
pliant snow
someone got my reference
ivory shadow
I'd like to think I am on the Internet way too damn much.
cinder karma
Khloe linked the story
safe dragon
oh
cinder karma
It's a famous CS story
safe dragon
oh no I have to read
ivory shadow
Oh man I hadn't seen that in ages either.
safe dragon
this is like creepypastas for programmers
cinder karma
crystal wren
Ah, it's our Ted the Caver Coder?
ivory shadow
The idea of trying to print something in Linux 14 years ago terrifies me on every level.
Of course it didn't print on Tuesday I'm shocked it printed on other days
crystal wren
The idea of trying to print something on anything 14 years ago terrifies me.
I found things more reliable there than on Windows!
ivory shadow
But I want the feature to keep working at 0k
I don't care if the atoms aren't moving make it work
cinder karma
safe dragon
(If anyone is unfamiliar: <https://web.mit.edu/jemorris/humor/500-miles>)
what a journey
safe dragon
https://www.reddit.com/r/linux/comments/9hdam/no_youre_not_crazy_open_office_can...
y'all can read anything here?
we did actually have a bug once at work that caused something to break but only on mondays
lethal walrus
cant open it either
cinder karma
Hacker News
lethal walrus
.. the issue is that the file cannot start with T, but can t??
safe dragon
what the hell
at least when we had a bug that something didn't work on mondays it actually had to do with something that involved a days of the weeks selector
this is just wild
cinder karma
This manual is 200 pages lonf
And pauses to explain stuff like voltage dividers
Tbh
cinder karma
I get they aren't marketed to EEs but I'm about to fall asleep on it
lethal walrus
the AUR is down
that's arch packages right
pliant snow
the official packages are fine I think, the AUR are community submitted installation scripts
safe dragon
the arch user repository 
pliant snow
i think it stopped being developed, others have taken its place
safe dragon
I've always just used yay
pliant snow
I use paru now, mostly so I dont have go installed just for yay lol
safe dragon
discriminating against go
golang is a fine language
I think it's ugly as sin but it's fine
pliant snow
go's worst feature is that it puts its config stuff in my home directory
Could i probably change it so it doesnt do this? maybe
safe dragon
sue google
pliant snow
that'll be plan B
safe dragon
my reason for thinking it's ugly is roughly just as serious of a problem
I just don't like that for an array type declaration its []type instead of type[]
I'm fine with rust's [type] cause it's different enough to just be different
but doing the same as I'm used to in C# but putting the brackets on the other side is just illegal
tbh it does get worse
map[keytype]valuetype
not a fan 0/10
the rest of the language seems really cool but this makes it essentially unusable!
cinder karma
🪭
safe dragon
I did absolutely love the simplicity of coroutines but alas, ugly syntax for types and thus will never use it
pliant snow
create your own transpiler that only modifies that one specific syntax
safe dragon
smart
has anyone ever created a language purely just to change the syntax in solely aesthetic ways
ivory shadow
I propose the following two dimensional array syntax for the sole purpose of driving Crumble crazy: []type[]
ivory shadow
[]
[]type[]
[]```lmao
I approve
5D arrays are not supported
cannot be represented by the type system
pliant snow
[]
[]ty[]pe[]
[]
when you rename your type to a different number of characters and you to realign all your brackets
cinder karma
No more difficult than rebuying a bunch of bras because your redacted changes sizes
ivory shadow
[][]
[]type[]
[][]```If you need more dimensions you need to make your type name longer
safe dragon
a well supported type
what do you do for odd character lengths for types
like int
[ ]
[]int[]
[ ]
#typedef iint int
safe dragon
it'd be a funny stupid restriction for a joke language that type definitions cannot have an odd number of characters
no int, no string, no float
ivory shadow
Identifiers must contain eight to twelve characters, and contain at least one each of numbers, symbols, and uppercase letters.
thin estuary
no int, no string, no float
string is even though...
thin estuary
rofl
safe dragon
counting has never been my strong suit
ivory shadow
clearly string is an exception
safe dragon
luckily exception has an even number of characters
wait no
it doesn't
jesus I should go to bed
ivory shadow
Instead of exception we have UhOh, which is a nice even number of characters
candid pilot
lol
lethal walrus
Instead of exception we have UhOh, which is a nice even number of characters
ErrorException would work and sounds realistic
lethal walrus
YourProgramBrokeAgainGoodJobExclamationCharacter
safe dragon
exception!
pliant snow
AHHH
candid pilot
Exception but we add a different letter to the end depending on what type of exception it is
pliant snow
Exception but we captialize different number of letters to indicate how severe it is
candid pilot
syntax error? just catch a Exceptiona. forgot a bracket? Exceptionk
candid pilot
Exception but we captialize different number of letters to indicate how severe i...
ok im a big fan of this one
not me programming and getting 5 EXCEPTions
pliant snow
Bug Report: 2024-5-18
Severity: EXCEPTIONion (Critical)
candid pilot
sees EXCEPTION all caps and breaks down crying
safe dragon
Exception but we add a different letter to the end depending on what type of exc...
this reminds me of an old policy at my company where exceptions were caught and then a new exception would be thrown that was just some "exception code" like ASP7392
candid pilot
why 😭
safe dragon
the real fun thing is that we didn't have any documentation for these so the only way to find out what it meant was to find it in code
candid pilot
what the fuckkk
safe dragon
and people would often copy paste the code from other functions having no idea what they meant
so you'd get like 6 results
but since we didn't rethrow the original exception we didn't actually have the original exception message
candid pilot
sounds like hell
ivory shadow
I have somehow managed to allocate less bytes than string.split (in some situations)
Not as fast but I'm just confused about how I'm allocating less, lol. I'm just dumbly tossing things in a List<string>
void vortex
safe dragon
skill
safe dragon
wonder what the most memory efficient way is of splitting a string
my guess is using a span
ivory shadow
I'm using stackalloc to get a char array for building the working item, and just tossing the finished items in a list.
cinder karma
yeah, and I thought the string.split would do similar\
ivory shadow
Seems to work pretty well. I could in theory iterate the string twice to count how many slices there are... but that's chasing memory allocation a bit too hard
cinder karma
huh
so part of string split's overhead is likely because it deals with multiple possible seperators
ivory shadow
Yeah. I on the other hand need to support quotes and escaping them.
I think I need to adjust my algorithm more too, to make it work identically to the game, because the game's method is fucked up lol
ivory shadow
My end goal is probably using harmony to replace the built in string parsing methods.
cinder karma
Yeah, I was building a quote aware string split at some point as well, but it wouldn't conform to the method signatures the game expects (ie, it's yielding ReadOnlySpan<char> fragments, it doesn't stick things into an array.)
ivory shadow
... how do you yield a ref struct lol
cinder karma
wrapping it in another ref struct!
ivory shadow
Oh right. That.
cinder karma
you can just define the GetEnumerator/Current and it Just Works
ivory shadow
I'm still waking up lol
cinder karma
no worries, I fell asleep at like 8PM yesterday
longggg week was longgggg
but yeah, I can't avoid some allocation overhead (mostly in the "removing the damn escape character") but I was trying to avoid it as best I could
ivory shadow
Anyway, I feel like this is important enough to write two versions of the function.
ivory shadow
Yes
cinder karma
lol
I just wanted quote-aware-stream-split for personal use, but seeing that I haven't gotten around to finishing it...
ivory shadow
Honestly I never intended on falling in this rabbit hole, but then the game offended me with how silly its code is. I know it needs to support ancient runtimes, but... yeah
dapper sinew
what are some good ways to start learning coding, i learn by doing but everytime i try to do i get so overwhelmed. i wanna learn JavaScript so that i can make a GUI with electron. if i try asking people who know coding they shoo me away cause i guess coding isnt noob friendly? but i know yall here are nicer lol
safe dragon
learn by doing is generally the way to do it for programming tbh. Just gotta start with something really simple with a tiny scope and work your way up
if programming as a whole is new to you just start with simple coding assignments like a program that prints out the prime numbers between 0 to some number n
and for the web side, start without any javascript at all. Just html and css to make something that doesnt do much but gets you used to creating a layout/styling
and then just work your way up
your initial versions are going to probably suck that's normal. It's not like you can only try it once
only once you've figured out the absolute basics I'd consider even looking at "web frameworks" aka react, vue, svelte, solid etc. When you know nothing yet they'll only make it more daunting to start
also just start in a browser, no electron
honestly my entire advice boiled down is "avoid trying to do too much at once and don't worry about whether you're doing it the right way yet"
dapper sinew
ok, ill try that
tropic anchor
what are some good ways to start learning coding, i learn by doing but everytime...
You're talking to the wrong people, I've not once had someone shoo me away when I was asking questions, at most they said "I'm busy, I'll swing by in a bit"
wary sail
what are some good ways to start learning coding, i learn by doing but everytime...
Haha coding is a big topic, some people love to gatekeep it or talk down to people asking "dumb/pointless" questions in my experience(some stack overflow nerds lol). I'd say figure out what you wanna do, in your case GUI w/ Javascript. And then learn the base basics of the language kinda like what Crumble said, do some practice problems, and work your way there
If you're deadset on javascript go for it, it's a great language to know if you want to expand into web dev stuff also like what crumble said with "react" and other frontend frameworks. I think python has some great libraries for a GUI as well if you're just interested in a GUI and not webdev I'd lean more towards something other than Javascript
That's my take on the matter. Feel free to reach out with any questions though! I LOVE teaching programming topics 🙂
tropic anchor
For things like HTML, CSS, JS, I recommend going through https://www.w3schools.com/js/default.asp It has examples of all the core elements you should know and has some extra "Try it yourself" elements
dapper sinew
You're talking to the wrong people, I've not once had someone shoo me away when ...
oh most likely yeah, it was coding discords
pliant snow
coding focused chats can be rough, as they tend to hear the same questions over and over and often will dismiss valid questions because they're tired of answering it
dapper sinew
That's my take on the matter. Feel free to reach out with any questions though! ...
ooooo about python, ive heard people seem to hate it lol, preferably id like to be able to integrate it with my AI(which is mostly in python) and am willing to learn anything taught to me
ivory shadow
coding focused chats can be rough, as they tend to hear the same questions over ...
Me when I see someone failing to read the message about their json syntax error for the 30th time that day
tropic anchor
That's because the syntax is way different from others, no brackets, no ;, just tabs and pain
But it is easy to learn, and very beginner friendly
wary sail
ooooo about python, ive heard people seem to hate it lol, preferably id like to ...
I personally love python. I do all my leetcode with python and some backend development with it's frameworks as well. It's great for integration with AI. It's relatively slow, but if you were dying for performance you'd be choosing something like C++. Which is definitely not needed for the scope of a GUI project
dapper sinew
me wanting to learn assymbly just cause
safe dragon
definitely not the place to start 🙏
cinder karma
Python is great for AI tbh
dapper sinew
definitely not the place to start 🙏
ive seen anytime i mentioned that peopled act like they were having flash backs to the end of their life
safe dragon
I wouldn't sweat the language you start out with too much. The basics transfer to almost all languages and certainly to every language mentioned here
tropic anchor
I've only used python for web scraping and Advent Of Code
cinder karma
We do a lot of python for automation
safe dragon
I've done advent of code in elixir, rust and haskell
ivory shadow
It's so weird to me that python is the big language for AI stuff
tropic anchor
It's easy and lightweight
safe dragon
I think it makes sense. It's often used by people who are more on the data science side, not programming
dapper sinew
can someone explain to me the need for the main() at the end of hello world codes?
ivory shadow
Yeah, I just look at it and think "python slow" but all python is really doing in the situation is gluing APIs together effectively
safe dragon
what language?
dapper sinew
what language?
Python
def main():
print("Hello World")
main()```And there's something to be said for easily gluing APIs together
tropic anchor
Call the function
safe dragon
the first two define a function called main. The last line calls this function
you could remove everything except the print statement and it would in this case do the same thing
cinder karma
One day I need to show you my insane bitbashing BS in python
dapper sinew
someone i know is a good programmer and they make a decoder for AI Models
wary sail
this is side info you never asked for, a main method is not required in python. But it is required in other languages
safe dragon
basically in many languages a function call main shows the entry point of the program, aka where it needs to start
dapper sinew
this is side info you never asked for, a main method is not required in python. ...
oh im sorry
tropic anchor
def main(): #Create new function called main
print("Hello World") #Print the text "Hello World" to the console
main() #Run the function called main
don't apologize! I'm just feeding you random info cause I wanna feel useful to the convo LOL
dapper sinew
i meant for asking info about stuff i didnt talk about
unless you meant something else
tropic anchor
Lesson 1: Add comments (in python you can add one with #), this way you explain it to yourself as you go, and it helps with remembering what code does what later
dapper sinew
will do
safe dragon
damn python doesn't have block comments
safe dragon
I'm not counting """
those are docstrings really
which is still a comment in a way I suppose
dapper sinew
would reverse engineering be a good starting point as well? i have code that makes a GUI in python that i got from my friend(he does most of the coding for stuff i want since i cant just yet)
safe dragon
looking at how other people did things will be great eventually
tropic anchor
I'd say so, going through code and looking up what does what is how I learned python, and if it's well documented that's even better
safe dragon
it's very valuable to have something to look at as a reference
dapper sinew
ok, ill start with messing around with it then and coding from scratch while having that reference(ive never coded from scratch)
wary sail
It probably makes the most sense to learn the barebones of the language first. Learn how to make really simple things and solve simple problems, that way you have a foundation. While you can learn a lot from looking at the other code, if you don't understand the underlying concepts well enough you will be making assumptions and have gaps in knowledge.
So my recommendation is start simple, once you're confident start branching out and coding from scratch while comparing to your friend's code
IMO
dapper sinew
ahhh ok, that does make sense lol
tropic anchor
It probably makes the most sense to learn the barebones of the language first. L...
I do agree that starting with GUI code (especially in python) is a bit much, but in general having comparisons and other code nearby is a good way to learn
safe dragon
as long as you can mostly understand the code you're looking at it's fine. If you're just copy pasting lines in you should probably reconsider it
dapper sinew
thats the limbo im in, i can read and understand some code. but i cant do anything with it.
havent figured out a way past this current "wall"
pliant snow
To learn programming, submit fixes and features to bouncer that im too lazy to do
safe dragon
it's even in python
tropic anchor
Are there even any issue's right now?
safe dragon
what does farm computer do
lethal walrus
lethal walrus
it's not overly bad
dapper sinew
For things like HTML, CSS, JS, I recommend going through https://www.w3schools.c...
oooo this is handy! i now know what a float is!
(using the python one)
safe dragon
the funky world of floating point numbers
dapper sinew
numbers are magic, they float now
wary sail
numbers are magic, they float now
wizard numbers!
dapper sinew
safe dragon
tbh floating point numbers are funky enough to be considered arcane magic
the internals anyway, using them is simple
ivory shadow
Let's count to 1!
0!
0.100000001490116119384765625!
0.20000000298023223876953125!
0.300000011920928955078125!
0.4000000059604644775390625!
0.5!
0.60000002384185791015625!
0.699999988079071044921875!
0.800000011920928955078125!
0.89999997615814208984375!
1!
wary sail
haha
wary sail
the internals anyway, using them is simple
getting computer architecture flashbacks. Can't remember jack from there
dapper sinew
watching a vid on programming, person said it took 2 weeks to learn how to put in a png to a game, i now feel like i have not been as slow as i thought
ivory shadow
Bonus of learning Python if you want to do game development: Godot's GDScript is very close to Python
(Of course, that doesn't help with Stardew. Or if you want to use Unity. Or Unreal. But Godot is neato.)
wary sail
oddly enough modding stardew is easy for me
You're already ahead of me then
dapper sinew
How in the world
wary sail
Bonus of learning Python if you want to do game development: Godot's GDScript is...
I've heard lots of good things about Godot! My buddy loves it, I know they got a lot of popularity when Unity started doing dumb stuff
dapper sinew
is unity still going through with that change?
seems like itd kill them if they did
wary sail
As far as I know. I stopped paying attention
dapper sinew
oof
ivory shadow
They stopped, but they burned a lot of good will on that it even happened.
wary sail
ah
ivory shadow
Gave Godot a lot of momentum in the process.
dapper sinew
Have programming catTM
ivory shadow
Even with the threat that console ports would be harder, I think I'd use Godot over Unity or Unreal for making a game.
dapper sinew
Unreal is so pretty
pliant snow
oh i can make an ugly unreal game, dont you worry
ivory shadow
It can actively get in the way, in fact.
dapper sinew
OH OH, is there any way to make my code to run on all my GPUs?
ivory shadow
Anyone can make an ugly unreal game. Just look for YouTube videos of old Nintendo games "remade" in Unreal.
pliant snow
cuda i guess
ivory shadow
Bunch of absolute idiots who don't comprehend the phrase 'cohesive art style'
dapper sinew
oh i can make an ugly unreal game, dont you worry
LOL, nooooooooo
ivory shadow
Unreal and Unity are both chasing movies and TV, also, which is kinda weird and leads to a bunch of features that aren't really for games
dapper sinew
ahh ok
i dont plan on making a game yet
but if i did id want it to be pretty
but id probably make my own lighting engine cause importing SUCKS(i dislike having to import stuff cause it feels unatural)
pliant snow
no important assets, everything must be done in code
dapper sinew
i want something that i made completly if that makes since, having imports of others work just feels off
i KNOW ill change my mind as i go though, cause some things i just wont know how to code
crystal wren
i want something that i made completly if that makes since, having imports of ot...
How far does "all mine" extend, though?
pliant snow
my game ships in its own pocket universe, ensuring the laws of physics are the way I want them
dapper sinew
How far does "all mine" extend, though?
not sure honestly, just dont wanna have to have help on the actual coding portion. i got no clue how this really works cause all i do is read code not write it
code is like a child i can watch grow, so i wanna keep that feeling for as long as i can. if that makes sense
crystal wren
I get it entirely! But you need to figure out a certain stopping point.
Because if you don't... logically, it extends down to you engineering your own ICs with your own architecture, writing your own BIOS for it, your own graphics API for your self-designed processors and/or GPU, firmware for everything, an OS to run your own code, a compiler to compile things for it...
pliant snow
i knew a guy when i was in high school who went down that path. None of us knew how to make game or anything like that, so he was trying to learn the framebuffer API lol
crystal wren
I would look at, say, SDL? See if that's a low enough level for you maybe.
Going any lower than that, you're writing OpenGL/whatever graphics API code directly by hand... which might also be what you're after!
dapper sinew
i did start learning shaders for MC which uses OpenGL
not sure if its the API or not though, still gotta learn exactly what an API is
pliant snow
An API is the way developers want you to interface with their project. Usually it refers to the functions they make externally available that you can execute yourself when their project/library/engine whatever is set up
dapper sinew
ill learn what that means at somepoint lol, currently having this stuff explained to me like im a child
pliant snow
What you need is a way to make excellent games using a comprehensive IDE environment
dapper sinew
An API is the way developers want you to interface with their project. Usually i...
i had it explained and now understand better! (not completely but better!)
dapper sinew
What you need is a way to make excellent games using a comprehensive IDE environ...
i still use VSCode and my terminal
i dont know any actual IDEs
pliant snow
A game engine that gives you all the tools you need, but some limitations to make you really plan your games out...
dapper sinew
oh thats what you meant
safe dragon
cuda i guess
if all of your gpus are nvidia
pliant snow
An engine where you can make games like Celeste, and uh, others
crystal wren
Though Celeste was made using MonoGame like Stardew!