Tbh I was testing out perfmon last time I was in c# land
#programmers-off-topic
cinder karma
And ofc perf works if you want to have the worst time
"Ah, I enjoy moving my files from windows to Linux to test performance"
safe dragon
rider works well for everything except niche things like MAUI which I don't think it even really supports. I've tried using rider but I kept having to work on Blazor WebAssembly and MAUI neither of which rider supported at the time
not that visual studio properly supports MAUI either but that's cause MAUI is kind of a disaster in general
cinder karma
Yeahhhh
crystal wren
I don't think MAUI even properly supports MAUI.
safe dragon
it really doesn't
safe dragon
we have 1 maui app in production (a customer facing display at cash registers) and despite being a pretty simple application we've had to use a lot of workarounds
built our own custom videoplayer cause the one MAUI has only supports Android
many UI elements were just completely broken
when it crashed or a breakpoint it wouldn't know what to do and say it couldn't find a visual studio instance to debug in somehow and just give up
the layout inspector still does not work even today
lethal walrus
we have 1 maui app in production (a customer facing display at cash registers) a...
wow, modern cash register software?
safe dragon
only the customer facing application
the actual cash register is a visual basic .net winforms application
so was the customer display for the longest time but then there were request for the display to support 16:9 aspect ratios which was just entirely unfeasible with the old one
16:9, multiple language support, support for displaying in foreign currencies...
suddenly there was enough desire to replace it
the POS itself will remain this old nasty vb .net winforms thing for as long as possible cause replacing that would be an absolute nightmare
20 years of archaic features implemented that we don't even remember exist but somehow still function
gleaming harness
The content data of type System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary2[[System.String, System.Private.CoreLib, Version=6.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=7cec85d7bea7798e],[System.String, System.Private.CoreLib, Version=6.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=7cec85d7bea7798e]] can't be converted to the requested System.Collections.Generic.IDictionary2[[System.Int32, System.Private.CoreLib, Version=6.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=7cec85d7bea7798e],[System.String, System.Private.CoreLib, Version=6.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=7cec85d7bea7798e]].
I'm getting this error while trying to access the Data/Fish to allow fishing past 2am, what should I be doing instead?
young larkBOT
The content data of type System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[[System.String,...
<https://stardewvalleywiki.com/System.String, System.Private.CoreLib, Version=6.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=7cec85d7bea7798e],[System.String, System.Private.CoreLib, Version=6.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=7cec85d7bea7798e]] can't be converted to the requested System.Collections.Generic.IDictionary`2[[System.Int32, System.Private.CoreLib, Version=6.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=7cec85d7bea7798e],[System.String, System.Private.CoreLib, Version=6.0.0.0, Culture=neutral, PublicKeyToken=7cec85d7bea7798e>
cinder karma
The content data of type System.Collections.Generic.Dictionary`2[[System.String,...
you're in programming off topic. That seems on topic
crystal wren
<https://stardewvalleywiki.com/System.String, System.Private.CoreLib, Version=6....
Also @lethal walrus, ha at Farm Computer. 
thin estuary
pliant snow
The xz thing?
cinder karma
Yeah
pliant snow
Yeah its been a big news item
thin estuary
xz thing?
pliant snow
It was discovered that the maintainer for the xz compressioin algorithm package had been secretly adding in a backdoor over the past few years, which would be exploited when used as part of ssh
The backdoor seems to have only been completed, so it's unlikely it's in the wild much, but it's caused a huge fuss about what to do about it, given its such a core package
ivory shadow
The whole thing is so wild
bronze idol
Buckwild
safe dragon
not the kind of package I'd have expected a backdoor in
pliant snow
idk if you were to do it, it's one of the perfect ones
strange copper
Who is noticing 500ms of lag 😭
safe dragon
it's exactly half a second even!
pliant snow
i feel like i get 500ms of lag even when connecting to my home server lol
safe dragon
500 ms delay is unacceptable in most software I've written
pliant snow
alright perhaps not
strange copper
I guess I don't deal with compression really and don't have a grasp of how long it should take
cinder karma
christ
safe dragon
a little rough
I haven't used a pc since the discovery but I shouldn't forget to update tomorrow evening when I'm at my pc
sand frost
Does this only affect linux?
safe dragon
pretty much
you'd need a very up to date version of xz + a specific patch for openssh
I'm not technically supposed to be affected either on arch since it doesn't have the openssh patch but still better to be safe than sorry
lethal walrus
so if you run outdated linux you should be fine, since you wouldn't have the full backdoor?
safe dragon
yeah
sand frost
I don’t really use any flavors of linux rn but if it did affect lots of linux I might tell people at work who do
lethal walrus
for once my neglect to update my devices came in useful then
cinder karma
yeah I'll be pulling updates asap
safe dragon
fedora and Debian unstable users are the ones that definitely should update immediately but anyone on a rolling distro probably should just in case
sand frost
I feel like Ubuntu and arch are the ones I hear about
cinder karma
Arch is pretty common
Suse is another one people like.
Anyways, I'd just pull updates
safe dragon
for personal use fedora has been gaining a fair bit of traction lately
cinder karma
the bright part of open source is that this got caught pretty damn quickly
sand frost
I have to assume that at work people would use some extremely basic flavor of Ubuntu
safe dragon
opensuse tumbleweed users should definitely update
sand frost
Unless they enjoy tinkering with linux, in which case im sure they know already
safe dragon
I don't like Ubuntu in the slightest but yeah it's likely
safe dragon
primarily the switch to snaps annoys me
there's a reason practically no other ubuntu based distribution has followed suit
safe dragon
if I wanted a stable reliable boring distro I'd go for Linux mint personally
cinder karma
for my next computer I might install server Ubuntu and then add stuff from there, I don't need all the userland stuff
I was on Mint earlier but I got tired of having to full reinstall to update distros
safe dragon
my home server runs good ol Debian stable
pliant snow
Does this only affect linux?
The xz package they maintained was used on Mac, BSD, and Linux iirc.
However, it was like the just barely released version, so only the most up to date distros had it, and it explicitly only targeted debian and red hat-based machines, and even then it relied on openssh being set up in a non-standard way (which debian did)
pliant snow
I was on Mint earlier but I got tired of having to full reinstall to update dist...
i have bad news about ubuntu then
safe dragon
when I installed mint on my old laptop I didn't have a USB drive large enough for the newest versions so I installed like a many years old version and gradually went through every single Linux mint upgrade process
worked well though certainly wasn't ideal
the laptop has been rocking mint since tho with no issues
I think it's turning 10 years old soon
pliant snow
my home server runs good ol Debian stable
mine runs arch because im not a coward
lethal walrus
my laptop runs void linux because arch wouldn't install
cinder karma
I'm a fucking coward and like stability aquova
safe dragon
I used to hear people talk about void Linux and then nothing
safe dragon
incredible
pliant snow
I haven't had any issues with arch stability
at least as a server, the bluetooth kernel stuff has broken a few times
safe dragon
unironically arch has been more reliable and less buggy for me than any Ubuntu based distro I've used other than mint
cinder karma
yeah, I think also I'm too lazy to learn rn
sand frost
I hate the idea of having to reinstall my OS, and never want to touch a wifi driver, so I stay on macOS
pliant snow
Everyone likes to tease it, but Im a Mac OS fan
cinder karma
Hmmmm
Nah I'm too much of a masochist
I like it when I hate my software and my software hates me
ivory shadow
I'm a fan of Linux distros with a read-only system partition. I blame my Steam Deck.
Being able to update the system super quick and know that there's zero chance of something breaking is pretty nice.
pliant snow
a nix fan
safe dragon
I can't be a MacOS fan
I've never used it
it definitely seems preferable for software development compared to windows but that's not a particularly high bar
- has an actually functional package management solution
Gratz u win over Windows
at least windows is getting sudo soon 
cinder karma
is it though?
safe dragon
well idk about soon...
it's in preview rn
no more opening a terminal only to realize "oh I need admin permissions" closing the terminal and then opening it again "as administrator"
which has the fun side issue that my work VPN fucks with the "run as admin" dialogue and takes a solid minute to actually appear
ivory shadow
Logging into NuGet to publish a package was fun. Microsoft wanted me to login via email link but absolutely refused to send me one. I managed to login via GitHub instead, and then... Microsoft wanted to send me an email with a verification code. And then it didn't want to send that email either. And after I finally got past that, it shows me a nag screen to get their app to make logging in easier.
crystal wren
I would love to be a MacOS fan, but the hardware...
Anything would be better than my clipboard breaking regularly after about 24 hours of uptime like I mentioned recently.
ivory shadow
The hardware honestly seems like the most appealing part of Apple stuff to me. ... in a way. Their new processors are pretty neat. I don't care for the OS or the locked down nature of... well, everything really.
crystal wren
The hardware when it isn't designed to actively hate you in a similar way to the software is great!
And sadly, the days of the Hackintosh are long dead.
ivory shadow
On that note, I am interested to see how the Snapdragon X Elite ends up working out. It's interesting to see more ARM processor work for PCs.
pliant snow
its funny, as I switched away from them because of the hardware. Then they released the ARM processors lol
crystal wren
I just want something that isn't all of the issues I've been having with Windows for the last... year? 1.5 years?
ivory shadow
So you want Linux? Get a whole new and original set of issues! 😄
pliant snow
switch to linux, you can have some hot new problems instead
safe dragon
M1 was exciting and then almost instantly it settled back into regular incremental updates most people don't care about
crystal wren
Issues with MacOS:
- Hardware is money.
Issues with Linux:
- I literally cannot find a damned font rendering subpixel arrangement that works for my main monitor.
Which is a fresh issue, because this is a new monitor!
safe dragon
I remember font rendering being permanently fucked on my old pc on Linux
crystal wren
The one DE that works best is Gnome 3. Everything else, text is dreadful.
safe dragon
gnome 
ivory shadow
give me KDE or give me death Windows 10
crystal wren
Yeah, KDE is my preference! But that's... that was the worst looking option font rendering wise on this monitor for some reason.
safe dragon
gnome itself is mostly fine but man do I hate the mentality of the people that make the decisions there cause they've delayed the adoption of so many good things because they just kinda decided they didn't personally consider it worthwhile
crystal wren
I wonder if it's maybe a Wayland issue now I think about it...
I've been avoiding trying out any non-Wayland options.
safe dragon
most Wayland issues are gnome's doing...
pliant snow
wayland does do some weird font stuff by default
theres a KDE setting to make xwayland behave better tho
safe dragon
I don't need to use scaling which is where almost all Wayland font issues come from
pliant snow
yeah
safe dragon
though honestly nothing is more broken than windows' scaling
because nothing makes sense my 15 inch work laptop has a 4k screen so I had to use scaling to make anything remotely readable. It completely fuckin breaks visual studio to the point of being entirely unusable
I ended up just setting the resolution on the laptop to 1080p
and disabling scaling
crystal wren
I've discovered a new favourite monitor resolution/size, speaking of scaling.
safe dragon
what completely moronic person decided a 15 inch laptop needs a 4k screen should reassess their priorities
pliant snow
my laptop has a 3:2 resolution, so I gotta scale as well lol
safe dragon
I've discovered a new favourite monitor resolution/size, speaking of scaling.
pray tell
crystal wren
Yeah, 15 inches is stupid. 28" + 4K is a new favourite.
safe dragon
my laptop has a 3:2 resolution, so I gotta scale as well lol
aspect ratio I hope
crystal wren
With 100% scaling, perfectly good for me!
safe dragon
6 pixels wouldn't be very high res
I use two 27 inch 1440p displays
works well for me
crystal wren
Yeah, my side screen is a 27" 1440p one. That's also a good combination!
safe dragon
have 1 colleague who swears by a single monitor setup with a single 30 inch 4k screen
he even removed the regular setup at the office (dual 1080p) just to install his single 4k monitor
crystal wren
That reminds me of people who enjoy a single ultrawide over two separate monitors...
I'll respect it, but I don't understand it!
safe dragon
as long as they never expect me to support their aspect ratio for any application I make
they can do their thing...
I like having 2 monitors so I can change workspaces for each individually
something that is not possible on KDE and GNOME in general which is part of why I always end up switching back to a tiling window manager
the best they've got is freezing one of the monitors to a single workspace while changing the other
crystal wren
I suppose it might be worth trying even more DEs to see if something works nicely for font rendering...
safe dragon
I'd love to shill hyprland cause I genuinely do love it but you gotta be into tiling window managers
and the manual config file based configuration that comes with
I think aquo also uses hyprland or KDE 6 I'm not sure...
pliant snow
I use both. KDE on my desktop and playing around with hyprland on laptop
safe dragon
COSMIC should be an option before the end of the year
that one's got its own font rendering library so it'd at least be different
I've been keeping track of COSMIC cause it has potential to be the perfect middle ground between floating and tiling for me specifically
and it's of course all written in rust so it gets #lost-rustaceans points
strange copper
time to professionally say "I made this tool in high school for a friend when I didn't know a thing about web scraping and barely anything about web apps and I haven't maintained it in years. I don't even play the game the tool is for" 😭
the code runs for 12 hours probably because they're getting hard rate limited
safe dragon
give them their table of horses
strange copper
I can't 😭 the app doesn't work
it used to work a few years back before the site changed some stuff
but it would genuinely run for like 10 minutes straight for people with a lot of game data because I made so many web requests I couldn't figure out how to condense
i'll let them know they're free to fork it, fix it, and host an updated version with credit but considering they're new to webapps idk if they'll actually do it
strange copper
really what the app needs is to open a websocket with the end user while it spends time scraping bc it takes so long
strange copper
they might if they really want their horses
that'd be a fun reason to learn programming lol
you can see your horses in game but the tool aggregated it all so that you could sort and find the best stats and figure out what to sell and stuff (my friend played the game and i needed a personal project to build)
safe dragon
I've met people whose motivation to getting into programming was to pretty up their neopets page who knows
strange copper
true!
the first thing I ever did was build an origami website because at the time it was obsession
i keep it hosted for the memories 💀
safe dragon
I have no fun story cause I just started with a comp sci major in uni
strange copper
peak web design from a template with my 5th-grade design skills
safe dragon
I love it
strange copper
i learned css coloring and i was like "PINK"
hallow spear
It's been a while since I touched C# after using Java and JS for a while, when on earth did they add arrow functions?
safe dragon
what's an arrow function
strange copper
what's an arrow function
lambdas
hallow spear
() =>, sorry
strange copper
peak web design from a template with my 5th-grade design skills
I took all my photos with a camera i got from my grandfather at age 7 (it was purple)
hallow spear
Huh, interesting. I dabbled with C# in Unity but I never knew they existed
strange copper
anonymous functions are my favorite thing in like every langugae
i took a class with a linter that enforced almost never using them and i died
safe dragon
LINQ uses them extensively and I use Linq extensively
I'm also a hobby functional programmer so I do love them
always saddens me that Linq has a performance cost in C#
always feels good going to rust where their iterators don't have a performance cost and often even end up pulling some magical optimization from somewhere that I can't seem to even replicate with a regular loop
hallow spear
anonymous functions are my favorite thing in like every langugae
I loved them in JS
safe dragon
first class functions are a major feature I look for in programming languages...
pliant snow
some day i'll learn what that means
safe dragon
essentially functions can be used like any other type or parameter, functions can be return values, can be stored as a variable in a struct/class etc
most languages nowadays have first class functions
pliant snow
oh right
safe dragon
your favorite rust feature, closures, are part of it for rust
pliant snow
disgusting
crystal wren
An example of the font rendering at its best with KDE.
pliant snow
yep thats a font
lethal walrus
what's the issue?
crystal wren
Not being able to find any combination of font rendering setting and DE combination that doesn't look awful on Linux. Here's another example...
crystal wren
Looks fine screenshotted!
safe dragon
that red text is nasty
pliant snow
why would it look different screenshotted
safe dragon
it's quirky like that
crystal wren
Ah well to be fair, at 100% zoom it looks identical in the screenshot... Depending on position on the screen. Just like the text itself.
pliant snow
but if you capture a framebuffer of 1920x1080, or whatever, why is the monitor not rendering that exactly on its 1920x1080 pixels
crystal wren
It's just subpixel antialiasing screwy nonsense and I have no clue why.
Let me try a different resolution...
pliant snow
"We're getting our picture taken lads, straighten up"
crystal wren
And it's suddenly exactly like my second monitor now they're both at 1440p. Hmm...
What's worth noting, though...
safe dragon
devs built that in so you can't screenshot the problem of course
you're running a 1440p monitor at 1080p?
crystal wren
No, it's the 4k monitor at 4k that's having the issue. At 1440p now, it's fine.
But worth noting here is that in a plain old TTY with no attempted antialiasing, it's fine.
pliant snow
just turn off antialiasing, ez
crystal wren
Why was I... damn it. I was thinking subpixel was the only antialiasing option for some bizarre reason.
pliant snow
although that isnt xwaylands problem usually
crystal wren
This is better, but not quite perfect.
pliant snow
where on earth is the option to change your antialiasing settings
safe dragon
4th door on the left
crystal wren
There, the perfect example is a demonstration of this. This is with subpixel antialiasing (apparently) turned off.
Notice the shimmering when the text moves.
safe dragon
doesn't look very off to me
or you gotta reboot
considering that seems to be a KDE native window I'd assume it's a proper Wayland window and not xwayland
maybe that's naive
crystal wren
Lemme just sanity check with Xorg...
safe dragon
for me font rendering was only worse on x11
Back on my old 1080p monitor with gtx 970 gpu
font rendering was messed up
the card had some strange issue where it did not properly support full srgb
crystal wren
Or a full 4GB VRAM...
safe dragon
caused all sorts of problems, especially on windows weirdly
thinking back the card was probably broken
I used it for years tho
crystal wren
I loved my 970, though.
safe dragon
Or a full 4GB VRAM...
the 4 GB that was actually just 3.5GB in a trenchcoat
crystal wren
Plain old Debian, nothing exotic.
safe dragon
tbh at this point Debian on a personal system is exotic
pliant snow
im somewhat surprised debian has pulled in wayland support
safe dragon
wouldn't be surprised if you're using the nouveau gpu drivers if you're still on Nvidia...
pliant snow
oh i think you'd notice
crystal wren
Went AMD specifically for Linux this time!
safe dragon
smart
pliant snow
running wayland on nouveau
safe dragon
Wayland worked better on nouveau than proprietary for a long time
crystal wren
And yeah, killing the subpixel antialiasing and a reboot does seem to have at least solved that. So that's the major thing out of the way.
Task number two... getting the full refresh rate out of this monitor.
safe dragon
on xorg having two monitors with different refresh rates is a nightmare sometimes but I've had no issues on Wayland
crystal wren
Yeah, I've got my secondary at 165, and primary at 120 right now without issues. On Windows, that would be an absolute nightmare.
...but this main display goes above 120, and I'd like to have it above if I can figure that out.
safe dragon
xorg can't handle it because its multi monitor support completely hinges on rendering all the monitors on some virtual larger single display with a single refresh rate
some weird ass hack someone thought of ages ago and we then got stuck with
safe dragon
...but this main display goes above 120, and I'd *like* to have it above if I ca...
and it's not blocking it because... idk, freesync doesn't allow over 120 hz for this panel or something?
I know one of my monitors is limited to 90 hz with freesync on despite supporting 144 Hz otherwise
pliant snow
i got new monitor arms today btw, its nice
crystal wren
I actually thought of that, and it still limits me to 120Hz even with FreeSync hard disabled.
safe dragon
love my monitor arms
crystal wren
Monitor arms are just essential once you've used one I think.
cinder karma
I kinda one some but I don't know where I'd put them
crystal wren
They take up less room than a monitor stand, so probably a similar spot to wherever your stand is.
safe dragon
presumably at your desk
yeah I love the space I now have under the monitors
got my work laptop and several other things under there
safe dragon
that's an interesting monitor stand then...
I'm not exactly sure how one would put books in a monitor stand
oh
yes ok not monitor arm
you could just put some actual book storage in the space that is currently occupied by the stand
crystal wren
...interesting.
Block 2, DisplayID Extension Block:
Version: 1.2
Extension Count: 0
Display Product Type: Extension Section
Video Timing Modes Type 1 - Detailed Timings Data Block:
DTD: 3840x2160 143.999991 Hz 16:9 319.824 kHz 1253.710000 MHz (aspect 16:9, no 3D stereo)
Hfront 8 Hsync 32 Hback 40 Hpol P
Vfront 10 Vsync 8 Vback 43 Vpol P
DTD: 1920x1080 143.759595 Hz 16:9 169.349 kHz 452.500000 MHz (aspect 16:9, no 3D stereo)
Hfront 168 Hsync 208 Hback 376 Hpol P
Vfront 3 Vsync 5 Vback 90 Vpol P
DTD: 2560x1440 144.000000 Hz 16:9 216.000 kHz 591.840000 MHz (aspect 16:9, no 3D stereo)
Hfront 28 Hsync 32 Hback 120 Hpol P
Vfront 9 Vsync 8 Vback 43 Vpol P
The EDID does report the correct resolution/refresh rate combination as possible at least.
cinder karma
I misread and thought your monitor was 1253 hz
crystal wren
Wait a minute, I think I...
ivory shadow
Are you connected via HDMI and using AMD?
ivory shadow
Yeah, that was just what I was gonna bring up.
crystal wren
That's definitely gotta be it.
pliant snow
Monitor arms are just essential once you've used one I think.
yeah they gave us some at work lol
i have no idea if im optimizing my displays, i dont think ive ever messed with their settings
cinder karma
I set my own monitors to lower than what they support (they're up to 120hz, I set to 60hx)
don't need it
pliant snow
Oh well nvm then i guess im good
safe dragon
ah it's the fuckin hdmi forum's stupid behavior again
pliant snow
this monitor doesnt have displayport
in hindsight i shouldve made different decisions
safe dragon
idk how a company that just designs the spec of a connector cable can be this shit
but we've got several pulling it off
safe dragon
USB forum in one corner and hdmi forum in the other
pliant snow
isnt the hdmi forum just the big TV manufacturers
safe dragon
I think displayport is actually pretty good?
I assume the rj45 ethernet stuff is fine idk I've never heard anything complain about it
I don't even know who oversees them
pliant snow
God
safe dragon
Bell labs?
pliant snow
bell labs is a nokia subsidiary i think now
lethal walrus
it has a nice enough logo, simple but it works
shadow wing
i wanted to share this here cuz its really funny
"Here, take this already working react project and instal Next. You'll notice nothing works anymore."
Looking at the migration so far, you may already be getting a sense of the benefits of using Next.js:
https://nextjs.org/learn/react-foundations/installation
lethal walrus
oo next
safe dragon
my application no longer working is a great benefit
crystal wren
Oh no, React!
safe dragon
no it's react but on the server
lethal walrus
i like next, mostly
safe dragon
well apparently they're phasing out useMemo and introducing a compiler
so thats nice
of the ones I've tried I liked svelte the most
/sveltekit
but it's still typescript/javascript
lethal walrus
svelte is nice
lethal walrus
but it's still typescript/javascript
you're writing web stuff though
lethal walrus
I imagine if you bypass jsx, you might be able to use nim with react
pliant snow
in my ideal world if your app is too complex to use vanilla js, we just give up
safe dragon
lmao
well
I guess the company I work for should just quit
though the old backoffice is quite a lot of really ugly jquery nonsense
mostly to do stuff Javascript itself has supported for at least a decade
really though almost all my web development experience comes from server-side rendering where 90% of the logic is in C# with Javascript just being a minor layer for some interactivity
crystal wren
Last time I did anything web related was... the most depressing thing ever. Especially with the mandated tools.
safe dragon
ah the authentic web development experience
crystal wren
Granted, that was... probably 2006? Maybe 2007?
pliant snow
woah i didnt know they had internet back then
safe dragon
just as old as our backoffice!
crystal wren
But imagine being required to mock up the design in Photoshop, slice it up, and slap it back together again... using Dreamweaver.
pliant snow
I think i used dreamweaver
actually wait i can find what software i used
GoLive CyberStudio
pliant snow
it's still in the meta tag of the first website I made when i was like 10
im pretty sure it was outdated even then, but my dad brought it home so i could play around with it
safe dragon
wtf is that
safe dragon
just like dreamweaver
pliant snow
yeah, i must have had a version from before adobe bought it
then they replaced it with dreamweaver
did adobe actually create anything themselves
pliant snow
I also used iWeb for a bit, back when that was a thing
safe dragon
is this also roughly when you last learnt of improvements to html and css
pliant snow
yes
safe dragon
I've learnt that for html and css people just learn whatever version they first started using and then stick with that forever
pliant snow
i learned web dev mostly just so i could play around with <canvas>, aside from that I just stick with the basic tags lol
crystal wren
Hey, I've vaguely learned flexboxes.
lethal walrus
i learned web dev mostly just so i could play around with `<canvas>`, aside from...
canvases are confusing
safe dragon
idk how to use a canvas
pliant snow
i made toe's website, and anything beyond that is unneeded
lethal walrus
that's an ex-junimo, right?
crystal wren
Canvas makes me think of art, and is therefore scary.
safe dragon
I'm sure
pliant snow
safe dragon
yes toe is an ex junimo
crystal wren
Oh look, it's a modern YTMND.
lethal walrus
aquo why did you set a child of body to 100vh without removing body's margin
safe dragon
he's an expert
pliant snow
i cant hear you, flock of seagulls is playing
lethal walrus
and the autoplay on audio doesn't work, at least for me
pliant snow
i dont think that ever worked
crystal wren
You really were going for a YTMND. I like it!
safe dragon
it's already perfect
lethal walrus
oh
crystal wren
Aquova.net... deny all...
lethal walrus
this was one of my first flexbox, also first tailwind experience things http://pillow.rocks/
I still hate tailwind, but not quite as much
pliant snow
this site is a scam
lethal walrus
I know I need to set up https
safe dragon
it's perfect
lethal walrus
but idk how to do that from aws
and I can't be bothered to migrate it to somewhere normal
pliant snow
I had a whole thing set up in nginx to do it, then I gave up and switched to Caddy, which just does it
safe dragon
I don't have a website to show off. I mean I have a domain on cloudflare but it redirects to you to localhost which I use to VPN into a bunch of stuff on my home network while I'm away
pliant snow
are there other pages on this site
lethal walrus
on my site?
lethal walrus
no
safe dragon
you don't need more
pliant snow
i like the gradiant thats good
lethal walrus
thx
pliant snow
im a big fan of unprofessional websites
lethal walrus
it's random
safe dragon
someday I'll make a public site for everyone to admire. I already have the domain
pliant snow
oh so it is
lethal walrus
actually
pliant snow
the angle seems not super random
lethal walrus
lethal walrus
the angle seems not super random
it's a collection of predefined and actually random iirc
safe dragon
I'll use react and 250 extra nodejs dependencies and then use that to load this kind of basic website
pliant snow
start right now
just get your home page set up
or just make a neocities and use your domain, and forget the hosting entirely
safe dragon
I'm not home rn...
crystal wren
Unironically, we've had people trying to write C# mods for Stardew using their phones.
pliant snow
i think literally all of my pages are just like, basic ass text pages thats 90% the paragraph tag, or something that uses the canvas
safe dragon
I've been meaning to try out Phoenix liveview for real now that it's nearing its actual 1.0 release even though it's both overkill and a bad fit for a basic webpage
shadow wing
lethal walrus
I'll use react and 250 extra nodejs dependencies and then use that to load this ...
!androidcompat has 106 dependencies
indigo mistBOT
safe dragon
Unironically, we've had people trying to write C# mods for Stardew using their p...
Hopefully with an external keyboard
lethal walrus
(106 folders in node_modules)
safe dragon
(106 folders in node_modules)
but
why
does this even need a single nodejs dependency
lethal walrus
svelte
safe dragon
definitely not that bad
pliant snow
my site might be jank, but it's got 0 dependencies
lethal walrus
the package-lock.json is ~1800 lines
safe dragon
at least svelte is smart enough not to dump all the code of all its dependencies in the browser
crystal wren
Source sans? More like...
safe dragon
I like it
lethal walrus
my site might be jank, but it's got 0 dependencies
actually, you want a brower that supports <script> https://caniuse.com/?search=script
so that's something it depends on
safe dragon
luckily that's all of them
pliant snow
my netscape users will have to suffer
even then, aside from the canvas stuff, I think I only have like two JS functions at all
lethal walrus
and it needs <link> too https://caniuse.com/?search=link
lethal walrus
even then, aside from the canvas stuff, I think I only have like two JS function...
oh you use custom components
safe dragon
honestly realistically you're probably using some Javascript functions that are much newer than these html tags
pliant snow
the fact that HTML doesnt support just important snippets of HTML from other files annoys me
custom components was as close as i could get
lethal walrus
iframes though
pliant snow
im not sure thats the solution
lethal walrus
to be honest your site's actually quite nice without css
pliant snow
when you only know like 5 css terms, you have to make do
pliant snow
how do you turn off css
safe dragon
not a question I ever expected
safe dragon
the future is here
lethal walrus
how do you turn off css
I just deleted the elements sourcing it
lethal walrus
most of my site is centered around learning that <hr/> exists
wow fancy feature
pliant snow
it was quite the game changer
safe dragon
I remember trying to render a horizontal line in MAUI for 3 hours and gave up
it was supposed to work, I took the example from their own docs
it did not
pliant snow
is your domain crumbledo.re
safe dragon
using maui really made me understand why people resort to using web rendering for traditional desktop applications
it is not
safe dragon
damn
lethal walrus
eh can't be that hard to be in charge of the vatican's TLD
safe dragon
I don't really go by crumbledore anymore but it'd be a neat domain
lethal walrus
just ask them nicely I'm sure they'd oblige
pliant snow
is it a .dev tld
pliant snow
i think aquova.com was taken
lethal walrus
it's apparently for sale!
devout vault
I've got spacechase0.com and kittycatcasey.com 
lethal walrus
for a mere $19650
devout vault
I really need to update my website...
lethal walrus
I assume USD
pliant snow
I also own my firstlastname.com
aquo.zone, which i dont use
and then stardew.chat which is more expensive than the others, annoyingly
lethal walrus
pillow.com and github.com/pillow are both taken by a company which iirc cleans airbnbs that seems to be dead
crystal wren
I have a me@firstlastname.com email address because I'm a cool kid.
pliant snow
There's a A Quova out there who used to take my usernames
but i think they gave up
I have a @pliant snow.net email address, but I didn't bother setting up firstlastname
safe dragon
the only actually address bound to anything for me is warden.crumbstrace.com but it redirects you to a tailscale ip that should do absolutely nothing for you unless tailscale really fucked something up
lethal walrus
iirc I have 5 pillow.rocks emails
thin estuary
I have a me@firstlastname.com email address because I'm a cool kid.
me at shockah.pl here
lethal walrus
i cannot remember them though
safe dragon
what should my first public website be
pliant snow
as in url or content
lethal walrus
what should I shill
one main page made out of vanilla js, and then however many subpages for various things all different frameworks
pliant snow
having a website is great fun
safe dragon
the biggest problem with trying out any tech. Thinking of a project to actually use it for
lethal walrus
I should learn vue
safe dragon
I've wanted to write a little photo viewer website for my photo storage on my server but that'd be behind my VPN for obvious reasons
and a password just in case...
pliant snow
let us see your photos
safe dragon
lethal walrus
wow
safe dragon
this is what you're missing out on
pliant snow
safe dragon
it's mostly just photos I take on vacations
like this one
in this case SeaLife in London
I don't think there's actually any photos there that would be bad to be public but still
ah there'd be some privacy issues
I'm not in any of the photos myself but other people are
poor souls
lethal walrus
I really should set up a proper home server
I was going to use my old pc but the "this case was opened!!" message refuses to go away and i can't find anything on the motherboard online :(
safe dragon
what kinda warning is that
pliant snow
where does the message appear?
lethal walrus
this except case open
pliant snow
what happens if you just... ignore it
lethal walrus
oh no the issue is I can't boot automatically
I have to, with my mere human hands press f1
pliant snow
reset PRAM or something
lethal walrus
i'll probably figure it out eventually
the bios apparently has an option for it, except my bios is too old for it lol
safe dragon
my home server is actually using brand new hardware I bought specifically for that purpose
pliant snow
you could update the bios
lethal walrus
I could
safe dragon
does it support updating by USB
ivory shadow
(I am glad I somehow missed the conversation about web dev. React is awful.)
pliant snow
but i did update it
lethal walrus
does it support updating by USB
🤷
safe dragon
I updated my bios recently I forget why
pliant snow
i feel like most recentish ones support updating over usb
safe dragon
yeah it's a standard feature nowadays
lethal walrus
this computer came with windows vista
safe dragon
modern
lethal walrus
very modern yep
(this being the one with the error, not the one I'm using currently)
lethal walrus
do your complex calculations
safe dragon
it's got a 5600G the integrated gpu is pretty good
lethal walrus
nice
safe dragon
don't mind me sshing into my server with termux on my phone just to run neofetch
lethal walrus
32gb memory wow
safe dragon
I use this as my development pc from my iPad
pliant snow
what are you doing using 14 GB of ram
lethal walrus
you program.. from your ipad?
pliant snow
i also have a 5600G
safe dragon
and then program in neovim
pliant snow
im also not sure why I got the G
mine does have a GPU tho
there, i'll show off too
safe dragon
time to ssh into my server on my ipad cause 14 gb memory usage makes no sense
lethal walrus
I'm fairly sure my main pc has a worse cpu and I'm slightly jealous
pliant snow
im at 6 GB simply because people are listening to the jukebox lol
actually home assistant is using most of the ram atm
then there's governor's poor server
safe dragon
I have no idea how to even read this
pliant snow
read what
pliant snow
Hit F5
pliant snow
thats probably fair
htop is weird, idk how to interpret it either
I use btop sometimes for that
safe dragon
how do I even get btop on debian stable
safe dragon
I rebooted the server and now it’s using 439 mb of ram
pliant snow
its still not great, but its better
excellent
lots of people helping themselves to your passwords
pliant snow
maybe should look at access logs
safe dragon
they can’t even get to the vaultwarden instance there’s no ip that points to it…
pliant snow
theyre in your house...
safe dragon
oh no
htop looks essentially the same for the actual processes but with like 1/35th the amount of ram
pliant snow
might just have a memory leak
safe dragon
I guess I’ll update
it’s been running without any reboot or change for like 4 months
why fix the problem when you can just set it to automatically reboot once a day
pliant snow
theres a program i self-host that recommends it be restarted once per day
safe dragon
very promising
what program is that
hmm it updating tailscale while I’m connected to the server using tailscale is proving to be a problem
safe dragon
I just had to restart my session it’s ok
well everything seems to still be working
so that’s nice
I did kind of forget how I set up docker for my vaultwarden instance but it worked out
pliant snow
gotta get docker-compose
safe dragon
I do use docker compose
but I forgot I did
I tried to manually update and reboot the vaultwarden container but then it wasn’t happy
I think I’m going to have to mess with how I have this shit set up again once I try to also have a website running
I know I fucked with this for hours to get it to work
to get vaultwarden to run happily behind tailscale on my home network
supple ether
why in the world does IReadOnlyList not have IndexOf???
ivory shadow
Because it extends IReadOnlyCollection<T> / IEnumerable<T> rather than IList<T>, and they were lazy on top of that. There is no good reason why.
supple ether
that kind of makes sense but like, they could've just added it to the interface? or an extension method?
instead I'm out here writing my own IndexOf like some kind of barbarian
ivory shadow
Yeah, they absolutely could have. It's bonkers that there isn't an official extension for that, imo
drowsy pebble
What do I do if I'm stuck in the "I want to develop something but have not clue what" loop? 
safe dragon
if you figure that out please tell me
safe dragon
presumably there's no indexOf for enumerable because they want to discourage people to index into enumerables since that's O(n)
well, ElementAt has a special case for IList so it wouldn't actually be O(n) in most cases
IList<T> does implement IndexOf as expected
why does IReadOnlyList not implement IList...
ImmutableList<T> does implement IList
and it also implements IReadOnlyList
why even is there both an ImmutableList and a IReadOnlyList
right. Cause IReadOnlyList is a facade and not actually readonly(at least none of the contents are readonly)
wait no that's still true even for ImmutableList
really wish C# had actual genuine immutable datastructures
immutable/readonly datastructures in C# practically just send a message to devs more than they actually prevent being mutated beyond adding or removing elements from the datastructure
same for records or readonly fields or properties without setters
it all goes out the window the second the thing inside is a reference type
pliant snow
the film
cinder karma
If I see another __init__.py this week I'm throwing the nearest mug out of the window
ivory shadow
__init__.py
cinder karma
Okay now I need to find a mug and a window
pliant snow
the nearest mug
cinder karma
Are doing as the crow flies
Or the nearest mug I can actually access
I should have thought this through
ivory shadow
It's Python surely you can just ```python
from kitchen import mug, window
if name == 'main':
window.defenestrate(mug)
Import error: no module named kitchen
ivory shadow
Shame.
modest jewel
Neocities' april fools.... the double take when i read 'AI assistant'
cinder karma
Apparently discord might be rolling out sponsored posts
lethal walrus
fun
cinder karma
modest jewel
youtube pt. 2.....(tbt when youtube had no ads & was free)
lethal walrus
I do wonder if this means discord will start punishing people for using client mods, since they would probably have adblocker plugins
pliant snow
you can just run it in a browser tho with adblockers
lethal walrus
true but that's annoying
I like being able to click on the discord button and it opens discord
cinder karma
dapper sinew
i cant even launch steam again 
cinder karma
https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/85866 this loooks relevant
worn remnant
i hate gamer ads, but also sometimes they're funny. they try to get me to buy a tactical gaming chair or whatever hideous new mountain dew they've concocted
dapper sinew
https://github.com/NixOS/nixpkgs/issues/85866 this loooks relevant
yay i can open the konsole again! now to test stardew
shadow wing
I do wonder if this means discord will start punishing people for using client m...
theres gonna be an option to disable them
also do you guys remember that may 4th fortnite promotion that discord ran last year?
the "ads" are gonna be like those
cinder karma
i hate gamer ads, but also sometimes they're funny. they try to get me to buy a ...
Youtube can't decide what I am
shadow wing
this is what discord's going to be doing more of
https://discord.com/blog/fortnite-quest
cinder karma
I get ads ranging from "Have you considered social security" to "enjoy crochet?" to "are you a multibillion dollar business trying to buy screwdrivers?"
lethal walrus
this is what discord's going to be doing more of
https://discord.com/blog/fortni...
ahh
modest jewel
is there a mod to grab things from things like ponds and tappers?
i got deluxe grabber redux. im surprised there isnt a patch for it that enables this functionality honestly.
oh maybe im in the wrong spot woops
cinder karma
dapper sinew
welp i must submit to the NixOS and restart pc
dapper sinew
im stuck on compiling monodevelop, if anyone know this program id like some help, im on NixOS and am stuck with this error No package 'glib-sharp-2.0' found
on the ./configure step
modest jewel
This isn't related but: I feel so spoiled that rider has had 3 EAPs so far (2024)
The joys of not running VS on a virtual machine 😌
cinder karma
sand frost
I’m not sure what that is but I’m sure it’s bad
dapper sinew
i made a script that runs another script cause i was lazy
safe dragon
but what's going to run that script
cinder karma
tbh I can't believe I once thought recursion was hard
safe dragon
I have absolutely used recursion in production
and not even for a functional programming language
I do remember struggling with it when I first learnt about it
leaden marsh
I think I personally understood recursion; it was learning the ways to not use recursion that was more interesting
safe dragon
always use recursion no exceptions
pliant snow
I don't think I've ever used recursion in production actually
sonic mirage
I just used it recently to generate a unique name for something. If the name generated is not unique, call itself again. The name is built with both time-based digits and a random number between 0 and 99, so it's highly unlikely that it'll ever even be not unique in the first place, but this guarantees it without having to repeat code or loop.
I've also previously used it to build a nested site navigation where it gets up to 3 or 4 nestings deep, so if the nav item still has children, call itself again but with its children nav items list.
safe dragon
I think every time I've used recursion outside of functional programming was to navigate a tree of some kind
the menu structure of the cash registers, the navigation tree of the backoffice
and a lot of stuff based on the hierarchy stores are placed in when multiple stores are managed by the same people who are then managed by other people etc...
lots of trees
empty yew
Y'all should look into LISP. Not only is it hard not to be recursive but there's a slightly elevated amount of parentheses.
safe dragon
which lisp tho...
leaden marsh
I think every time I've used recursion outside of functional programming was to ...
This has been my experience as well
It's always some nested structure of some sort
empty yew
which lisp tho...
all of them
safe dragon
the lisp family of languages has always been fascinating to me and simultaneously not something I've ever actually given a shot despite liking functional programming
empty yew
I usually use GNU Guile which is Scheme-esque but that's because something I use for writing sheet music uses that
I think I was the only person in my uni year that actually used any LISP at all while there
empty yew
lilypond... never heard of it
Why use a GUI when you can just type everything out
safe dragon
that's pretty much how digital music notation started
empty yew
I still know some people who use SCORE for some reason
safe dragon
considering you're a nerd and use sheet music software you probably have watched tantacrul's videos going into the history of sheet music...
I've watched all of them despite lacking any musical knowledge whatsoever and being generally incapable of hearing differences that are supposedly obvious
empty yew
Oh yeah. I've also responded to multiple of his questions asking "what software should I look into next" with LilyPond. He never did it though lol
empty yew
To be fair, some of the differences are hard to hear due to youtube compression
LilyPond is FOSS so I doubt he'd need to worry about that. It's not like the devs would let Muse group touch it. I also think he's still working on the Finale video which isn't free
safe dragon
someday
I now hold strong opinions on music notation software despite an inability to understand sheet music
empty yew
He also did just review GIMP so
If it helps, I can confirm his rants about Sibelius were extremely accurate
Like extremely
safe dragon
the quit sibelius button is something that stuck with me
hope the Foss solutions end up winning out in the end
I wanna see more stories like blender
empty yew
safe dragon
that's a good button
empty yew
Thank you. Comes from tanta's server lol
And I know there's a lot of bad with Muse group, but the fact they are actually providing FOSS successfully really says something about software in general
safe dragon
I know nothing about the muse group
it's a thing
this is no longer programming related...
so lisp amirite
pliant snow
whats a sibelius
safe dragon
I'll continue to look at niche functional programming languages that have almost no chance at ever finding mainstream adoption
empty yew
I think Taxi might catch on eventually
pliant snow
Reminds me how I hated all of the CAD software on linux, and eventually settled on OpenSCAD, which is just a thinly veiled programming language
empty yew
convert to TeX instead of word too
safe dragon
who says we don't already use tex
empty yew
Fair
I still can't find a good replacement for Excel though. Things come close, but never good enough for me
safe dragon
I really for the most part don't use any
pliant snow
libreoffice does most stuff i need
safe dragon
yeah same
I don't need it to do much
I like how whenever I look into a programming language there's some cult following that loves it unreasonably much
doesn't matter if the language only reached a 1.0 release 3 days ago
they're there
even when the language doesn't do anything noteworthy as far as I can tell
safe dragon
I hope that that's Zig spelled wrong
cinder karma
It is
safe dragon
oh ok
cinder karma
Just took three tries haha
safe dragon
I know nothing about Zig other than that it does something with allocators
I feel like I should take some time to learn basic C/C++ at some point
so many languages trying to replace it
whatever happened to carbon
oh it's still being worked on
cinder karma
Yes! Explicit allocation
Tbh for normal programming I still prefer rust
But I think zig is worth learning
ivory shadow
C# for normal programming is the best. I only touch rust if I need something super duper performant. I rarely do. Haven't tried Zig yet, but I have vague plans to the next time I'd go to rust for something.
pliant snow
I'm glad people like the C# experience. As an end user not on Windows though, anytime I see something written in C#, it's almost never worth my time trying to get it working lol (although I think this is more due to Win UI stuff than C# itself)
crystal wren
I was going to say I've never had issues with it on Linux, but then I realised I've never really tried to run anything that's... GUI stuff.
It's definitely about a million times better than it was in the Mono days, though.
safe dragon
you open rider and get faced with the question of locating your mono installation...
tbh despite having used C# a lot and for at least 9 years now I don't know how I would even start most of the programs through the terminal. I had to do it once for MAUI while trying to figure out how to get it to create a proper installer that'd actually work
and it wasn't just dotnet run it had like a whole list of extra parameters
crystal wren
Nowadays with things built for modern dotnet, it's just... ./program. No IL or anything goes into the main executable anymore, I believe the target platform setting just changes the starter binary for each platform?
safe dragon
I forget what I had to do for MAUI but it wasn't pretty
it's kind of strange cause running it from the terminal is the normal way to do it for every other language I use
but for C#/visual studio/rider I just press the "start" button
crystal wren
Now I need to see how Avalonia goes...
safe dragon
looking through the docs for dotnet run I don't know what it was that I had to deal with for maui...
most of these parameters are rather self explanatory
crystal wren
Yeah, that sounds like some weird "We haven't got things set up to build and copy over properly because this is nowhere near finished" type stuff...
safe dragon
yeah I mean maui was still in beta to be fair...
crystal wren
And not even slightly supported on Linux!
safe dragon
and they still call it cross-platform
😌
and half the things I'd look up to try to do would be met with "sorry that only works for android builds"
crystal wren
Yeah, Avalonia is about as simple as I anticipated!
crystal wren
alan@home-workstation:~/RiderProjects/avalonia-test$ dotnet build
MSBuild version 17.3.2+561848881 for .NET
Determining projects to restore...
All projects are up-to-date for restore.
avalonia-test -> /home/alan/RiderProjects/avalonia-test/avalonia-test/bin/Debug/net6.0/avalonia-test.dll
Build succeeded.
0 Warning(s)
0 Error(s)
Time Elapsed 00:00:00.98
Literally yes.
safe dragon
so simple
crystal wren
Honestly, it really is a... nice experience on Linux.
safe dragon
but can you generate an installer...
god that reminds me of the nightmare of figuring out how to automatically distribute updates for our MAUI project without being tied to the windows store which is blocked on most of our cash registers
all the info online for distribution relied on publishing it to the windows store(for windows of course)
crystal wren
Well I hate how that sounds a lot!
safe dragon
it was possible but it did take some searching and we essentially had to build our own update system
also cause it was an msix we had to force some clients to update to a newer version of windows cause they didn't support msix installers
I think some of these were beta pains. There seems to be a lot more info on this now
and if you're wondering "why were you using something that's in beta for production use"... well it wasn't my choice to make
anything that wasn't owned by microsoft themselves was out of the question and I think the CTO was strangely excited about MAUI at the time
sand frost
Today’s fun and horrifying windows experience:
For the purpose of playing videos in PowerPoint, Internet Explorer 11 is required to be on your computer. You don't have to use it to browse the web; you simply have to have it installed, because under the covers, PowerPoint needs its technology to play videos on Windows.
crystal wren
I was very excited about MAUI when I saw cross-platform!
Then I learned it was going to ignore Linux, and...
sand frost
Note that a) IE11 is discontinued and b) it’s only on windows
crystal wren
And c) it's IE11.
sand frost
Also c) yes that
ivory shadow
I do not like MAUI.
safe dragon
our cash registers still have a button dedicated to opening internet explorer
ivory shadow
I need to play more with Avalonia. Haven't done much with that yet.
safe dragon
our cash registers still have a button dedicated to opening internet explorer
we now introduced a setting which if changed would instead open microsoft edge instead so the future is truly here
ivory shadow
I build desktop stuff rather than mobile, so something like MAUI that's got a big mobile focus is just gross to me.
sand frost
Debating whether to try to find a windows computer to present from, upload to google drive, or just say fuvk it and play videos in browser
safe dragon
I've been surprised in the past what weird things apparently have a dependency on IE 11
sand frost
And unfortunately this is for this afternoon
crystal wren
I build desktop stuff rather than mobile, so something like MAUI that's got a bi...
That's exactly why I got so incredibly deflated when the platform list was all finalised and official. I was just... "Oh. That kind of cross-platform."
safe dragon
I think I've come across a few old mmo installers that would break if you didn't have internet explorer
ivory shadow
Does your presentation work right in LibreOffice Impress?
safe dragon
libreoffice is my go to "fuck it let's pray" last resort
ivory shadow
LibreOffice works on all desktop platforms afaik
sand frost
I’m also considering trying PowerPoint in browser
safe dragon
it does
I'd probably opt to import it into google slides
I have not made a powerpoint or presented any slides in 5 years tho
I'd like to keep that going
sand frost
I present all the time, but often/usually use google slides
safe dragon
presenting
I've shown off features I've built but just by like, showing it
haven't needed slides
sand frost
I’m fine with presenting, in my field showing off features sometimes involves a 12’ tall robot
Bit more cumbersome
Or a 3 hour simulation
pliant snow
Today’s fun and horrifying windows experience:
> For the purpose of playing vide...
lol. It's like when you look into a Steam Proton prefix, and see the minimum mandatory software that has to exist
pliant snow
I have more copies of Internet explorer and Windows media player than windows users
safe dragon
that was microsoft's plan all along
pliant snow
played us like a damn fiddle...
pliant snow
I also have a 1 TB SSD, but I don't think I'm very close to filling it
ivory shadow
Most of mine goes to ROMs. So many ROMs
elder matrix
OMG i just saw and relized that there is a programming channel here
Hope you all doing well coders
safe dragon
yes hi welcome to #lost-rustaceans
elder matrix
Hehe yeah thanks
safe dragon
the best off topic channel (not biased)
elder matrix
Yeah i can see that
thin estuary
What the hell Python
safe dragon
... what?
that can't be true
nah man wtf
nahhh
why is a default parameter value retaining state from previous calls?
devout vault
surprise indeed
frosty echo
That's like the #1 Python gotcha. But once you know about it, no problem
safe dragon
okay but what do you do about it
how do you work around optional parameters apparently just like.. being broken
I can't think of any kind of logic that would cause this behavior that doesn't sound just like a massive implementation bug
some of kind of reuse optimization gone wrong
frosty echo
def surprise(my_list = None):
if not my_list: my_list = []
print(my_list)
my_list.append('x')
``` something like thatis this actually intended behavior?
do they explain it somewhere
now I'm really curious
I assume it's something that's going wrong with it retaining a pointer to the same array it made previously for some reason
it doesn't seem to have this problem for strings or simple primitive types
frosty echo
safe dragon
this feels like an introductory course to python programming
thin estuary
that link doesn't scroll to the right spot, but yeah, i see it documented... the question is, WHY would it be implemented that way
frosty echo
Hmm, it does for me
thin estuary
that page only explains that it does that, but doesn't say why
safe dragon
Default parameter values are evaluated from left to right when the function definition is executed. This means that the expression is evaluated once, when the function is defined, and that the same “pre-computed” value is used for each call. This is especially important to understand when a default parameter value is a mutable object, such as a list or a dictionary: if the function modifies the object (e.g. by appending an item to a list), the default parameter value is in effect modified. This is generally not what was intended.
the "generally" should honestly be replaced with never
unless it's someone who has gotten too used to python being broken
frosty echo
Well, no, once you know about it, you can use it
e.g. have a thing that operates on a list you give it, if not, on its own list it keeps
safe dragon
I can see how you could make use of it but man it'd be nasty to actually do that
that also means this mutable object is kept in memory forever for as long as the function definition is in memory doesn't it
very strange
frosty echo
Yes, but memory management like that isn't really a Python worry
safe dragon
I've never been the target user for python anyway...
pliant snow
python has some weird scoping quirks
safe dragon
I know from helping someone that functions can totally access variables from thin air that happen to have been defined before the function was called
they don't need to be passed to the function
frosty echo
Which is nice, as it means you don't need to... do that
safe dragon
it's horrendous though for actually understanding any reasonably sized project though
and refactoring would be a disaster when you rename a variable somewhere and don't realize some random ass function assumed there was a variable by that name
safe dragon
rust and python are definitely intended for different kinds of projects and people
I do like rust a lot
it gets a little nasty sometimes to work around its constraints but I do like it
a lot of these weird things really feel like footguns for the sake of very minor conveniences
pliant snow
Which is nice, as it means you don't need to... do that
I think it's awful. Sure, it avoids you having to do like foo = None before you actually define it, but I much prefer that than variables which you wouldn't think having scope suddenly do
frosty echo
But if you do just define all your variables in your functions as you intend them to be "new", you shouldn't ever run into any problems
safe dragon
at least my lsp does throw a warning when I actually try to use this "feature"
pliant snow
I'm thinking like
foo = True
if foo:
bar = 1
else:
bar = 0
print(bar)
In my mind, bar should be either None or undefined
frosty echo
There, it could only ever be 0 or 1 anyway?
safe dragon
it shouldn't exist where the print statement is cause it's out of scope of where either of the different bar variables were defined
frosty echo
Oh, wait, you are expecting if blocks to have scope?
pliant snow
yes
thin estuary
yeah, like most sane languages do
frosty echo
Yuck, yeah I'm glad it doesn't
pliant snow
Python is, to my knowledge, the only language ive used where if statements don't have scope
safe dragon
I've never used a language where if statements don't have scope... other than helping people with python homework I suppose
in this specific example you'd just use a ternary operator if python has one
I assume it does
it does
pliant snow
which is what I'd typically use, yeah
I was just surprised when I learned that was valid
safe dragon
foo = True
bar = 0 if foo else 1
print(bar)
oh no, it's that weird syntax
frosty echo
Haha
safe dragon
it's an ugly ternary operator syntax for use but it works
sand frost
Yeah, I think that Python is fun to write but the lack of consistent, clear variable scope is very bad for people learning to program
thin estuary
wait, WHAT. the condition is IN THE MIDDLE?
safe dragon
yes