programmers-off-topic

[thin estuary]

O.o

[crystal wren]

Huh.

[supple ether]

This was probably needed lol

[crystal wren]

Weird. Wonder where this came from.

[void rivet]

Ooo 👀

[modest jewel]

👀??

[austere comet]

[thin estuary]

"first!", i guess

[void rivet]

xD

[golden flame]

new channel?

[modest jewel]

Perhaps to stop making-mods from going offtopic

[crystal wren]

The goal being to make #making-mods-general less spooky to artists/content people, who currently primarily use #modded-stardew for the art stuff!

[pastel mesa]

👀

[crystal wren]

Because... we do go on about the ol' programming a lot in #making-mods-general.

[supple ether]

Oh yeah that makes a lot of sense

[sand frost]

👀

[worn remnant]

they told me not to mind the other channels, but this one is relevant to my interests

[crystal wren]

Yeah, this one I anticipate will see a lot of use.

[hidden nest]

[gritty loom]

so basically this is where you discuss snakes, coffee and fiesta and iron oxydization and similar topics?

[fleet coyote]

Hi everyone

[sonic mirage]

I feel like I am partially to blame for the recent offtopicness of #making-mods-general lol

[worn remnant]

(sweating trying to decode fiesta)

[fleet coyote]

Yeah programming and stuff

[golden flame]

[crystal wren]

No, I promise you we're just terrible with that in general and always have been.

[gritty loom]

(well, maybe it's a french saying, hence the coffee that is maybe more classic version)

[modest jewel]

(Personally I'm stuck on coffee...which one is that )

[worn remnant]

coffee i get. don't know what language fiesta is though

[gritty loom]

it's the same one :p

[crystal wren]

Java?

[gritty loom]

french would say "faire la java" to "faire la fête" ("to party")

[void rivet]

I only dont know what fiesta is

[crystal wren]

The iron one is nice! We'll wait for a certain someone else to come by who's particularly into it to answer that.

[worn remnant]

ah, okay i don't feel as ignorant now

or maybe differently-ignorant

[gritty loom]

well, i'm glad i contributed to enrich everyone with a bit of french obscure expressions 😄

[hearty nymph]

first

[fleet coyote]

Close enough Yara

[half yarrow]

Since the new free games announcements channel is called "Junimo Bundle Rewards", will the Governor's automated messages be rewritten?

[grave onyx]

How do you do, fellow programers?

[crystal wren]

...a fantastic question.

[half yarrow]

Would be weird to get Lewis' shorts as a reward from a bundle...

[marble jewel]

Now that this exists, I'm gonna break rules and talk about modding

[gritty loom]

"i saw strange green creatures carrying a package libelled [link]" 😄

[sonic mirage]

I feel like we'll mostly discuss specific musical notes in here

[dark veldt]

And Rust.

[marble jewel]

I can imagine people having a discussion about programming mods, and then a junimo has to come in and say "hey guys, let's back off topic"

[dark veldt]

Just be good noodles and only be off topic here.

[twin kettle]

first

[crystal wren]

See, now I can post things like this oddity guilt-free.

Debug? Fine.

Release? What the hell is this SimpleTheme nonsense you're trying to use?

[tribal tinsel]

i'm gonna start expecting asset making pixel art pixel art art in #creative and #creative-discussion .... i want art there

[crystal wren]

Yes.

[sonic mirage]

Well the channel is named off topic but still in the Game Modding section, not the Off Topic one, probably to avoid the meme-y shenanigans of those off topic channels

[dark veldt]

You bet your asset, butter

[severe vault]

looks up the Junimo Bundle Rewards channel way up top Did you coding peeps mess up the channels again? 😛

[crystal wren]

Nope! That's where Governor's going to post the free games from now on.

[sweet monolith]

huh

[dark veldt]

Maybe I could convince some good soul to help this tadpole VSC user figure out why “debug” isn’t working for me…

[severe vault]

that... makes sense with the update dropping in

.... 11 days. that's too soon

[supple ether]

stop don't remind me I'm already dying

[sand frost]

Are you using vsc to compile, logo?

[severe vault]

Anyway, back to off topic programming

[supple ether]

oh you're using avalonia too? what for?

[dark veldt]

Yus. Unless you have a better suggestion? I’ll take mac suggestions!

[modest jewel]

(...So, python right)

[earnest cairn]

this where we banish atra to?

[sand frost]

No, im being lazy and resistant and refusing to stop using VS

But someday Microsoft will tear this away from me

Like the cruel overlords they are

[dark veldt]

I figured I’d start with VSC because of that, Elizabeth

[earnest cairn]

I really hope making-mods gets split into art and non-art

[dark veldt]

I never “got used” to VS

[sand frost]

Idk I’ve used VSC like for Python a couple times

[supple ether]

I don't use python to build but I do use it for publishing because batch files and msbuild scripting are a PITA
(things other than stardew mods)

[sand frost]

I begrudgingly admit VSC has some nice features

[crystal wren]

I'm attempting to work on a tool to make using git as simple as possible for content/expansion people who don't want or need to think about actually using git. Just the kind of thing that'll monitor for changes and slap together a commit every now and again.

[sand frost]

But I prefer that raw text files command line experience

[supple ether]

oh nice!!

[sand frost]

Regrettably my poor taste means I can’t help you here, logo

[supple ether]

github desktop is a great ui but it doesn't do automatic commits afaik

[modest jewel]

Wait, you can use Python to build something else?

[dark veldt]

Drat and darn. That’s okay, Elizabeth. I’ll figure it out somehow…

[safe dragon]

damn they finally made a nerd channel

[modest jewel]

So far I've only been making small apps, this is a surpriae

[supple ether]

you can use python to call dotnet / msbuild on the command line and do other stuff before and after

[modest jewel]

Nice!

[supple ether]

the main reasons I use it is

1. vs does not have a any built-in mechanism to publish for multiple platforms at once and
2. I need to do zip shenanigans for macos packaging to get it to work right when publishing on windows bc chmod +x doesn't exist on windows

[sonic mirage]

Have you looked at Sublime Merge?

[crystal wren]

That's actually what I use!

[marble jewel]

Sublime Merge is what I'm currently using too

[sonic mirage]

I use that in combination with Tortoise Git for in-file-explorer

[marble jewel]

Although, VSCode + GitLens does a pretty good job too

[safe dragon]

you could look at stuff like gitautosync for ideas I guess though I feel like you'll have a lot of annoying edge cases to deal with

[ionic musk]

PyCharm is where it's at

[crystal wren]

I want this tool to be as simple as: open folder > initialise repo where necessary > monitor > commit > repeat.

[sonic mirage]

I find it's not great for going through historical commits, but it's great for making them and doing merges

That's what I use TortoiseGit for

[sonic mirage]

gotcha

[crystal wren]

If you can think of anything that would be about as simple as that for non-programmers, I'm all ears! Saves me effort in the long run.

[sonic mirage]

I think GitHub had a desktop app but I haven't tried it

[safe dragon]

I guess you could use inotify-win/inotify and whatever the built in macos one is to detect changes automatically for them. Only issue would be linux where inotify isn't automatically installed on most systems... And it'd still need to be a running application while they're working

[marble jewel]

GitHub Desktop makes things pretty easy too

[modest jewel]

I see. I hadn't considered that for windows, sounds like it's pretty different to build

And yeah, true. I've had the issue of finding equivalent windows commands (e.g for grep or sid)

[marble jewel]

I like to review my options for the tools I use about once a year to see if anything has changed

So I tend to get experience with all of the options

[supple ether]

the issue with chmod +x isn't that there's not an equivalent to chmod for windows, but that the +x flag doesn't exist on windows at all

[hidden nest]

Do we need to rename this channel to "DH's new home"?

[safe dragon]

also hi modders I don't mod but I do program for a living so I'm here now

[cyan shadow]

Hi Crumble

[safe dragon]

this is close enough to the off-topic channels I usually reside in

[marble jewel]

Windows 11 is adding sudo to a future version however

[shadow wing]

[marble jewel]

Slowly they're adopting Linux conventions

[safe dragon]

I'm so excited for sudo on windows you have no idea

[marble jewel]

#making-mods-general is dead, we're only on topic there 1% of the time

[supple ether]

thank fucking god, it desperately needs it

[modest jewel]

Because of how windows works, right?

(Never seen an executable disabled in windows, now that i think about it)

[sonic mirage]

@supple ether Re: Markdown convo in #making-mods-general : Yeah I've tried to use Markdown for personal notes but since in my editors it doesn't render that differently it's never really stuck. I usually just use a combination of spacing, horizontal lines, and ALL CAPS to split up sections and blocks of thought in my plain text note files.

[safe dragon]

as someone who uses linux for everything hobby related I keep forgetting sudo is not a thing when I'm on my windows work pc and have to close the terminal again and open as admin

[modest jewel]

Well, antivirus can stop you from executing things iirc but, not exactly what i mean

[marble jewel]

There is one example of this convention. Unsigned PowerShell scripts couldn't be executed without changing the default permissions.

[supple ether]

yeah executables are done by filetype/magic bytes on windows afaik

[marble jewel]

I think the closest Windows gets to execute permissions are signed vs unsigned code, but even then everyone just turns off protection since it usually gets in the way of what you want to do

[supple ether]

which is kind of a shame because permission flags seem a lot more elegant

[modest jewel]

That sounds more confusing/troublesome than how linux does it, IMO

[sonic mirage]

"protection"

[marble jewel]

I'm a Windows main, but my work laptop is a Mac, and I run a bunch of Linux servers

[supple ether]

windows is a clunky piece of shit for power users

[marble jewel]

But muh gaming

[safe dragon]

I've been gaming on linux for years now with little issue

depends on the kind of games you play though

[supple ether]

the only reason I've stuck with it for as long as I have is because it's a pretty standardized platform with good compatibility

[sand frost]

I exclusively game on mac but I don't play intensive games

I play stardew mostly

[supple ether]

I am always tempted to use linux but there's a lot of programs I would miss

[sand frost]

a little bit on mini metro

[marble jewel]

Honestly at this point, I could probably get away with running Linux Desktop, but there's just those random things that I run into every now and again

[modest jewel]

Yeah, wine is pretty good (esp if you make a game specific prefix), and there's always lutris

[sand frost]

I have a fear of having to debug my wifi drivers

thus am not on Linux

[sonic mirage]

Well Proton has "changed the game" for gaming on Linux thanks in large part to Valve and the Steam Deck

[modest jewel]

(There's also playonlinux but i never used it)

[ionic musk]

Same. I deleted my windows partition in like 2021 and it felt so satisfying

[sand frost]

also I am scared by the prospect of having to reinstall my OS sometimes when things go wrong

[safe dragon]

proton and lutris pretty much bundle everything you'd normally need together to run shit

[supple ether]

if it was just about games I would switch to linux right away

[safe dragon]

I deleted windows from my home pc pretty much immediately after I graduated uni and wasn't forced to be able to run Visual Studio anymore

[modest jewel]

Like working things? If so yeah i get that

[supple ether]

but there's a lot of tools and other programs I've come to love that are windows-only

there's stuff like wallpaper engine that will just never be on linux, and notepad++ which could conceivably be on linux but isn't

[marble jewel]

Yeah, I've learned what I'll miss switching away from Windows when I started using MacOS as my laptop

[safe dragon]

I just like the package management on linux too much. chocolatey and winget are neat but not the same

the biggest hurdle I have is that I use lightroom but I've just accepted to just use the ipad version as a compromise

[marble jewel]

I absolutely loathe MacOS Finder vs Windows Explorer, and I know a lot of people have some special hate for Explorer, but at least I can assign default settings that stick

[ionic musk]

What wild stuff do you do in notepad++? I just use mousepad on Linux, it supports a ton of syntax highlighting, but it's basic for sure

[supple ether]

the other thing with linux is that while I realize it's theoretically possible to get any kind of shell you want for it, getting different shell components to work together might be a bit of a hassle

[modest jewel]

Finding linux equivalents has been easy for me because libreoffice is fairly close to office (i kinda prefer it more), but there's things that don't have an equivalent. Like that time in quarantine they did videocalls and the specific program wasn't available for linux

[supple ether]

never heard of that, maybe I'll check it out

[safe dragon]

windows explorer search is just really bad but the rest of the application is fine... ignoring the double context menu they added in windows 11 that means I now always have to open context menus with shift right click instead to actually get the options I need

[sonic mirage]

Windows Explorer couldn't find it's way out of a paper bag

[supple ether]

I just want something that's not fucking electron

[marble jewel]

There's a registry hack to turn that off

[safe dragon]

I'm not doing registry hacks on my work provided laptop

[modest jewel]

(Isn't notepad++ avaiable via snap?)

[marble jewel]

Ah, my work actually implements that hack by default

[modest jewel]

Genuine question. Though that uses wine IIRC

[supple ether]

windows explorer is a lot better in 11 because they finally added TABS

[marble jewel]

They know that no one wants that behavior by default so all work laptops come pre-equipped with it

[supple ether]

for anyone on windows: WinAeroTweaker is a godsend

[sonic mirage]

I looked at a bunch of Windows Explorer replacements but never got around to actually using any

[marble jewel]

But my work laptop just went out of warranty so I got a Macbook M3 instead, and I'm so far loving it

[safe dragon]

there's a million applications on linux that can replace notepad from stuff basic stuff that are essential text editors to stuff like Kate which are borderline just fullfledged code editors

if there's one thing linux has more than enough of it's programming tools

I guess you don't have adobe dreamweaver if that's something you feel very fondly for

[supple ether]

all the popular ones I could find were either like basic text editors or bloated electron junk

[marble jewel]

Try Zed, it launched on MacOS but just added Linux. It's Rust based and focused on performance.

[sonic mirage]

XYplorer, One Commander, Free Commander, Double Commander.. just never settled on one

[supple ether]

ooooo I will try that

[marble jewel]

https://zed.dev/

[modest jewel]

Yeah, then there's desktop-specific tools for each (like gnome/KDE/etc disk manager)

[cinder karma]

Oh the right click menu?

God I should get long paths

[safe dragon]

kate is actually the default notepad for KDE so yeah

[supple ether]

I don't need dreamweaver I am a css/html/js god

I can write web pages in my sleep

[safe dragon]

no webstorm not even visual studio code just base vim no plugins

[modest jewel]

Oh it is? That's interesting. Xfce just comes with mousepad

[sonic mirage]

Wait who is using Dreamweaver for web dev in < current year > ?

pls no

[safe dragon]

no one I hope

[marble jewel]

Oh wait, I can't find the Linux donwload, but I swear I got emailed on the waitlist

[ionic musk]

mlocate is one of those great Linux packages too. Windows Explorer file search is so sloooow

[sonic mirage]

We had a few clients bring us their existing site written in DW and they were nightmares to clean up

[supple ether]

on windows, Everything is a great search replacement

[safe dragon]

since my work is very very entrenched in dotnet stuff my web development task are either fuckin Webforms or Blazor depending on its age which in both cases are best done in visual studio

[supple ether]

dunno if it exists for other platforms

it's a work of art though

[marble jewel]

Dreamweaver? I always just used Microsoft Word /s

[supple ether]

I am so sorry

[modest jewel]

Yeah linux has some great ones. grep -ir has saved me so much time (and it's short compared to windows')

[supple ether]

I legit had a professor who did that and it drove me nuts. no indentation either

[safe dragon]

I've been stuck back on webforms lately and I don't recommend it

[marble jewel]

I mean Word can actually output garbage HTML, or at least it could

As in, not writing HTML, but using it for formatting, tables, and such

[cinder karma]

Interesting

How is refactoring support

[sonic mirage]

I have clients that will screenshot their screen, print it out, write on it and circle things, scan in it back in, put the image into a Word doc, and then convert the Word doc to PDF and email it to me. I'm not even surprised by it anymore

[supple ether]

hmmm gpt-4. not a huge fan of that

[marble jewel]

Oh wait, it was a different MacOS application that added Linux support I was thinking of. Warp for terminal.

[safe dragon]

well they claim support for the LSP protocol so I imagine it just supports lsp code actions

[cinder karma]

Autojump

[marble jewel]

Warp, also bult in Rust for speed
https://www.warp.dev/

[cinder karma]

Is what I use. Excellent bit of time-saving

[safe dragon]

can't be bad if it's rust

[supple ether]

that one I have seen and been interested in

[crystal wren]

I've seen that around a lot!

[cinder karma]

AI built in?

[supple ether]

oh it also has ai though

can tech people stop putting ai in shit please

[marble jewel]

Yeah, I've been trying out a bunch of new apps to find alternatives to what I'm used to on Windows

[supple ether]

I like dumb technology

[safe dragon]

if you want a fast very good terminal that doesn't have ai shit, alacritty

it's also written in rust!

for bonus points

[marble jewel]

I don't mind AI features as long as they're not intrusive

[ionic musk]

I'm seeing a trend here. Somebody likes rust 😂

[cinder karma]

Rust is nice

[supple ether]

I like rust

[cinder karma]

It's fun to write

[safe dragon]

I do also like rust but I am always amused whenever I see any new project or an update and see the seemingly inevitable "(partially) written in rust" sentence. Even fuckin JQuery 4.0 wasn't safe from being rewritten in rust

[sonic mirage]

What syntax is Rust most similar to? Does it look like Swift?

[ionic musk]

Mousepad: https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mousepad_(software) for anything heavier I use an IDE 🤷🏼‍♂️

[crystal wren]

Much better.

[supple ether]

most of what I program is in c# because I'm more familiar with the syntax and don't need a systems language. Also to a lesser extent I'm still wrapping my head around the borrow checker

[safe dragon]

I use neovim for pretty much everything that isn't dotnet development

[supple ether]

it's kind of it's own thing? but it definitely has some C influences

[cinder karma]

Some from python too

Some from haskell

[safe dragon]

can't say it'd take more than an hour to learn the rust syntax if you already know a bunch of languages. The borrowchecker is the real first hurdle

[sonic mirage]

Like when Kotlin came out I was like: Oh, they did a bunch of things Swift did. So I just kind of assume each new language uses similar things to other newer languages

[supple ether]

yeah

the syntax was self-explanatory (mostly) but the borrow checker is something I'm still wrapping my head around

[cinder karma]

The language really is comfortable to write

Other than arguing with the borrow checker

[supple ether]

I feel like once I understand it I'll really enjoy writing rust but until then it's slow going

[cinder karma]

Tbh beats type erased c# threading

[safe dragon]

thank god it did not inherit the "hidden parameter" part of haskell aka point-free/tacitfree programming or as people who hate it (like me) like to call it, pointless programming

[sonic mirage]

Is that for dealing with nullable/optional type things?

[cinder karma]

Borrow checker is the memory management static analyzer for rust

[supple ether]

the biggest things I like about rust are the built-in unions and the struct/trait system

[cinder karma]

It makes sure you don't commit memory crimes

[safe dragon]

rust doesn't have null it has Option and Result depending on the usecase

[cinder karma]

That was the thing I was thinking of in the alpha thread the other day

If I as a function expect you to give me ownership of a textuee

I can express that in rusr

I can also express that in cpp

I can't in c#

[supple ether]

the struct/trait system is nice because it gets rid of inheritance entirely and forces you to use composition, but also it offers very low coupling between data and code, which is very, very nice

[safe dragon]

you can express it with a "pretty please" in the summary no one will read

[dark veldt]

I love my M3.

[cinder karma]

Oh I always read xml docs

I'm also in love with proper Discriminated Unions

tbh, wren, I should learn Go sometimes

That one has a fun type system

[safe dragon]

the rust trait system is nice till it's not which you can very clearly see in the mess that is async

[cinder karma]

Bit like xompil3 time duck typing

[marble jewel]

After having exclusively windows work laptops for... a long time, switching to the M3 is such a different experience. Like having a decent battery life makes me realize how bad my old laptops were, and the OS does a really good job at helping you manage a bunch of windows on the laptop screen

[supple ether]

I do too... but often they're just like
SuckBlotch(): sucks a blotch

[cinder karma]

Love it in theory need to play with it in reality

[supple ether]

that was one of the biggest things I struggled with avalonia is the documentation never really explains how something works and I kept having to dig into the actual source code to figure it out

[dark veldt]

Exactly. I almost daily get an OOM error on my Windows work laptop. Not a single instance on my M3.

[ionic musk]

I've been enjoying a lot of C#'s features for awhile now. outs are really nice (til you cant use it with async), task handling is really nice. Extension methods are great

[cinder karma]

I like c# until I try to optimize

[supple ether]

"SetBorder(string) parses the border from a string" okay cool but what is the format for that string. does it handle null.

[crystal wren]

YES.

That's a super annoying thing about their docs.

[cinder karma]

Then you get bitching like "oh my God no user defined intrinsics?"

[supple ether]

I'm just imagining the nightmare that would be ref params across threads

[cinder karma]

Please let me use a Span

[marble jewel]

One of the programming YouTubers I follow, theo.gg had an interesting video recently about Go, and in it he talks about Rust and Typescript. Go is like a forgotten middle child because it's not as efficient as Rust and not as simple as Typescript (which we can substitute TS for C# and everything would still apply).
https://youtu.be/N8fjU_hlwDI?si=qCYUXYQdjlxVaDwV

[sonic mirage]

out is a nice feature but I always find it a bit cumbersome to read code with it. Have to end up reading back up until I find where the variable appeared from.

[safe dragon]

can't say golang is very forgotten

[cinder karma]

Tbh I prefer the modern return a tuple

Over out params

[marble jewel]

This is an infographic that came out of that video

[cinder karma]

Haha

[marble jewel]

Like with Python or JS/TS you have a lot of packages and tooling to help you get a lot done quickly

[cinder karma]

I need to pick up haskell again

[supple ether]

one thing I discovered in c# and fell in love with was tuple assignment syntax, ie.
(a, b) = (b, a) which works exactly as you would expect

[safe dragon]

then there's haskell which cannot be put onto this infographic cause it's neither easy to write performant code nor quick to write

[sonic mirage]

I avoid Tuples if at all possible. Just make a POCO for it.

[cinder karma]

Tbh like my python velocity is type error

Possibly because I'm working with shitty libs st the moment

[supple ether]

and the compiler is smart enough to simplify out the tuples completely into a series of ldloc and stloc

[cinder karma]

Lots of untyped BS

Pain

[safe dragon]

whenever I use tuples in C# I feel dirty

even when I use named tuples

[cinder karma]

Effing love tuples

[supple ether]

I do feel like they have a bit of code smell to them and they often give me the itch to just use a struct instead, but sometimes they really are the simplest option

[cinder karma]

I'll also do teensy record structs

[sonic mirage]

Ok, now go back and read your code with Tuples in year and tell me how easy it was to understand lol

[supple ether]

you can name tuple components

[cinder karma]

I always name mine

[safe dragon]

with how easy records are to write in a single line it's not much effort to introduce a quick little record to be your return type if you really need to

[marble jewel]

Just switch to using readonly record struct and feel less dirty

[ionic musk]

Same, depends on the use frequency. If you have 10 methods returning the same tuple, use a POCO for sure

[sonic mirage]

Hmm.. that sounds familiar.. is that a newer C# version thing?

[safe dragon]

named tuples might be like around .NET 6 ish maybe not sure

[cinder karma]

And also frankly I can go back to code I've not seen for years and still remember thr context haha

[supple ether]

the last time I used them was for storing an ordered list of paired items

[sonic mirage]

Lots of our client's C# codebases are stuck in the stone age

[supple ether]

it was used nowhere else and only passed around inside that one method so it seemed alright

I could've used KVPs but that seemed less clear intent-wise

[cinder karma]

Record structs my beloved

Double bonus points if I can make them read-only

[safe dragon]

I understand voltaek one of our windows forms applications recently received a massive upgrade from 4.5 to 4.7.2 and it took us like 3 years of begging with no progress.... till a client asked us to implement something that required a library that didn't support 4.5 and suddenly it was allowed for us to upgrade

maybe we will reach 4.8.1 someday

[sonic mirage]

We're currently migrating a company off of their Access 2000 database and pre-.NET VB desktop app

[cinder karma]

Oh god

[safe dragon]

oh

[sonic mirage]

Their database is approaching 4GB and the whole company is going to come crumbling down

[supple ether]

I had to write something in net standard 2.0 the other day and it was terrible

[safe dragon]

well good luck

[marble jewel]

I get to use the version of .NET that our Azure server supports, which upgrades at the pace of the Change Advisory Board approval. i.e. still on .NET Framework.

[cinder karma]

Have fun!

[sonic mirage]

So it's migrating 200 tables and 400 views to SQL Server, and boy do I just love that

[supple ether]

(it was a sourcegen and I couldn't get it to work properly in newer versions of .net)

[sonic mirage]

After that we'll create a new web app for them on current tech, but it's been a slog

[cinder karma]

Yeah sourcegen requires standard sadly

[safe dragon]

jquery 4.0 hell yeah

modern tech

[cinder karma]

What happened to the good old days of html and css

[safe dragon]

hey those didn't go anywhere

[cinder karma]

None of this dynamic BS

Give me a site a math professor might have written while drunk on a Friday night

[sonic mirage]

We don't use all these fancy JS SPA nonsense frameworks, we do C# and PHP sites with normal JS and CSS

[safe dragon]

I can't say I'm a fan of the SPAs either

[sonic mirage]

When a client comes back to us in 5 years for a change to their site we don't have to reinvent the whole thing because the basics continue to just work

[safe dragon]

or javascript for that matter

[supple ether]

YES

[sonic mirage]

We still have a client internal site that uses Prototype JS that we're trying to migrate to jQuery lol

[safe dragon]

people when they need a site with like 3 buttons that do something basic so they build a whole ass React application

[marble jewel]

CSS? Just use the HTML attributes for styling.

[cinder karma]

God I'm getting sick of fucking up python types on stupid shit

[supple ether]

99% of webpages that use js do not need it. and a surprising chunk of websites using a framework could be replaced with static html

[supple ether]

bad. bad

[cinder karma]

God people annotate your fuckibg libraries

[ionic musk]

Gotta have a language with strong types 👏🏼 👏🏼

[supple ether]

that's not very semantic of you matt

[marble jewel]

<html bgColor="red">

[sonic mirage]

hey stop that

bad

[supple ether]

let me guess you like tailwind

[cinder karma]

Incidentally typing is the thing I'm currently annoyed at c# at

[supple ether]

and marquees

[cinder karma]

Have to type scrub to use threads grumbled

[marble jewel]

<marquee><blink>This was a fun effect.</blink>

[sonic mirage]

Next you'll bust out a blink element

[cinder karma]

Unclosed tag!!

[sonic mirage]

I KNEW IT

[safe dragon]

I do like tailwind it's convenient

[marble jewel]

This is how you can tell who learned HTML when MySpace was the only social media platform

[sonic mirage]

Tailwind takes utility classes to absurdity

[ionic musk]

I'm sad that C# doesn't have a type operator like Java of <? extends T>

[supple ether]

you forgot to close the marquee and this is transitional html so the browser is going to explode your webpage

[safe dragon]

I recently found out that the autoclosing tag like <div /> actually by definition does nothing in the html5 spec. It's just straight up ignored. Whether a tag is autoclosed is entirely decided by what tag it is

[sonic mirage]

I feel called out

[supple ether]

isn't that part of the xml standard?

[cinder karma]

Am I even old enough for MySpace

[marble jewel]

<marquee><blink>Okay, better?</marquee></blink>

[supple ether]

that self-closed and otherwise-closed tags are the same?

[safe dragon]

well it's a remnant of the XHTML days

[supple ether]

only difference if its self-closed is that you can't give it child nodes

[sonic mirage]

All my homies use XHTML 4.01

[supple ether]

hell no

[cinder karma]

I'm not aware of this, huh

[supple ether]

screeching derangedly SEMANTICS SEMANTICS SEMANTICS SEMANTICS

[safe dragon]

like.

<div /> 
some text

Some text is actually inside the div cause autoclosing on a div does nothing

[marble jewel]

<b>Semantically bold</b> <i>Semantically italics</i>

[safe dragon]

idk why you'd do this with a div but you know

[supple ether]

I... don't think that's how it works

text is nodes too

[cinder karma]

How is this used?

[ionic musk]

Not using strong and em.. smh

[supple ether]

actually b and i aren't considered semantic. the idea is that the tags tell the browser the function of a thing rather than its appearance. hence <strong> and <em>

it's also why div buttons are bad

[marble jewel]

I know, I'm just trolling. Semantics is such a nerdy subject that I think most people are unaware of.

[sonic mirage]

They know, they're just trying to make me tear out my hair

[safe dragon]

what the browser actually make of it

[smoky moat]

I think I love this channel

[supple ether]

this is just what making mods was before today lol

[marble jewel]

I know, making mods so quiet now

[marble jewel]

It's making mods only unhinged because after 10 minutes no one has come in to tell us to stop

[safe dragon]

or you can make it more fun

<div /> 
<div /> 
some text

and it will nest it in both!

[sonic mirage]

I feel like it was slightly more restrained in there lol

[smoky moat]

I'm going to learn so much haha 😂

[smoky moat]

I second this one lol

[cinder karma]

Dh I love you

[safe dragon]

idk making mods I'm the wild card

[ionic musk]

Uhhh, it's kinda complicated so I'm not sure the best example. It's helpful for overrides. <? extends T> could be a return type, where it's any type that extends T. Like in C# if you have an override on Task<object> you can't change the return type to Task<MyObj> even though MyObj extends object. C# overrides don't work that way

[supple ether]

oh like constraints?

oh I see but also in overrides

interesting

[safe dragon]

you can do that with reflection but yeah nothing compile time that I can think of

[marble jewel]

Wait... that can't be done with type constraints?

[supple ether]

I think the "proper" way to do it in c# would be to just cast it, or have a separate method that called and casted for you

[sonic mirage]

I think that usually gets handled by having the return type be an interface

[safe dragon]

object is a bit of a weird case

[marble jewel]

Although, I'd probably do Task<T> where T : class

[supple ether]

it can be. what elm is saying is that you can change the typing of overridden virtual methods if they're assignable

[marble jewel]

Ah okay

[safe dragon]

can of course use a good ol dynamic everyone will love that

[supple ether]

dynamic is not as bad as I thought it would be

[sonic mirage]

Everyone did not love that

[supple ether]

I still avoid it though

[marble jewel]

brb replacing all my variables with dynamic

[supple ether]

I used it for Happy Home Designer for soft references against AT

[cinder karma]

Contravariance

And covariance

C# has that

[safe dragon]

I used dynamic once but then at 4 am I finally figured out how to write it without needing to resort to using it

[supple ether]

because using expression trees / il emission turned out to be too complkicated

[cinder karma]

https://github.com/atravita-mods/StardewMods/blob/a085f7c9cf32077c5bb764d6907d8e217ce1118f/DresserMiniMenu/Framework/MiniFarmerMenuIcons/IInventorySlot.cs#L11

[supple ether]

thank you for that tip about covariance and IReadOnlyList that one time by the way, really saved my bacon

[safe dragon]

somehow I don't think I've ever seen this in any c# code I've come across professionally

[supple ether]

atra is probably better with c# than your average c#er

[cinder karma]

(I'm not a professional dev just a language geek)

[sonic mirage]

So why is it not just IInventorySlot<Item>?

How does the TObject help?

[ionic musk]

Yeah if you're just changing the return type itself you can. If a child returns object you can override the return type to MyObj because MyObj : obj. But it doesn't work with async sadly. You can't override Task<object> with Task<MyObj> because Task<MyObj> doesn't extend Task<object>. In java you could do Task<? extends object> because of type erasure

[sonic mirage]

I think I'm just not familiar enough with the use of out probably

[supple ether]

you can do that with some types; I'm not sure why not Task since IIRC the generic version indicates the return value

[cinder karma]

The slot binds the type it uses

https://github.com/atravita-mods/StardewMods/blob/a085f7c9cf32077c5bb764d6907d8e217ce1118f/DresserMiniMenu/Framework/MiniFarmerMenu.cs#L578

Ring slots only accept rings etc

[cinder karma]

Because Task in c# doesn't implelent covariance

[lethal walrus]

:o

[ionic musk]

TryGets are great 😆

[safe dragon]

it's time for TaskCovariant

[ionic musk]

Yup. Wish it did 😁

[sonic mirage]

Interesting

Ok, I need to do some actual work today. This new channel has killed my day lol

[safe dragon]

it's 8 pm, there is no work ignore your own timezone

I don't think I've ever seen the keyword this this much before in C#

[supple ether]

if it's in parameters, that's an extension method. otherwise it's mostly only used for differentiating between fields/properties and shadowing variables/parameters

[safe dragon]

yeah I mean I get why it's there

[ionic musk]

Oh I use it all the time. I like fully qualifying parameters like @supple ether says

[safe dragon]

our coding guidelines at work and your preferred style would not get along

[supple ether]

my style has gotten a lot less messy over the years but I have no idea how it measures up to "professional" work

I do try to make the code as self-explanatory as possible though

[safe dragon]

well I doubt it's more messy than professional work...

[cinder karma]

Lol

[supple ether]

https://github.com/tlitookilakin/HappyHomeDesigner

[crystal wren]

I just stole Pathos's editorconfig for SMAPI. That's enough to keep me in check, right? /s

[ionic musk]

Way easier to tell on things like GitHub what is and isn't a local var when you've got this. qualifiers

[supple ether]

I should probably add a readme

[crystal wren]

Yeah, I have my editor set to mark a lack of this. as an error.

[cinder karma]

A lot of Pathos's little ducklings do IMO

[safe dragon]

idk how pathos programs

[hidden nest]

Like a monster

[supple ether]

one thing I am trying to do less of is storing monitor/helper statically in my mod entries. It's convenient but it feels like a bad idea for loose coupling and encapsulation

[supple ether]

pathos' code is a work of art

[safe dragon]

I may have been here for longer than pathos but I have not set foot inside the modding channels

[leaden marsh]

woah new(?) channel

[leaden marsh]

Indeed

[ionic musk]

#bulletin-board

[supple ether]

containment channel for programmer noodling

[leaden marsh]

makes sense

We went off the rails all the time in #making-mods-general

[safe dragon]

a crime, unbelievable. Inconsistent naming convention

[leaden marsh]

just like stardew's codebase fr fr

[safe dragon]

I have not seen stardew's codebase but from what I know CA wasn't exactly a professional programmer

[crystal wren]

It's...

Written in a way that optimises for getting a game finished and working quickly?

I think I'd put it?

[safe dragon]

that's a very kind way to say it

[crystal wren]

Which isn't meant to be a knock at it at all! He was making a game to make a game after all.

[leaden marsh]

And did a damn good job at that

[ionic musk]

The use of JSON objects where values are like "aaa/bbb/ccc" and a . Split('/') are used pains me.

[supple ether]

the thing with game design is that it's better to try for something that works than something that's good. if you have something that works you can polish it up later, but if you try to make something perfect right from the start it will never be finished

[safe dragon]

yeah I mean I don't care even if your game is a 7000 line switch case of states defined as strings

if that worked for you... good for you

[supple ether]

basically every massively successful indie game is massive spaghetti behind the scenes because of that

[leaden marsh]

i mean that's basically the Object.cs item system now

[crystal wren]

I'm absurdly excited to run Haunted Chocolatier through ILSpy when it comes out to see his styles have changed.

[safe dragon]

it ends up being worse

[leaden marsh]

just ILSpy 1.6 hehe

[crystal wren]

But so much of that is Pathos and Casey and you!

I don't get to see commit signatures!

[leaden marsh]

That's the fun part!

what did i miss what happened to pathos' name

[cinder karma]

Check the alpha channel

Speaking of names

[leaden marsh]

Oh banger, thank you Atra

[cinder karma]

Test

[leaden marsh]

pfffft

[safe dragon]

pathos is undefined? I know discord uses javascript but damn

[supple ether]

at least he's not [object Object]

[safe dragon]

[object Object] is not valid JSON

[leaden marsh]

lol

[cinder karma]

DH thank you for the tag line

I love this

[crystal wren]

I think i++ == ++i is the equivalent of XxSephirothxX.

Well it's factual!

[lethal walrus]

ah yes, my favourite channel! #codeybois

[leaden marsh]

LMAO i picked it because it's undefined behavior in C

[lethal walrus]

I do think sebs-basement would actually have been a good channel name though

[leaden marsh]

That is true!

[crystal wren]

It would have been that, but we ended up wanting clarity first.

[safe dragon]

you're not real

idk what's goin on with names

or what the alpha channel is

[leaden marsh]

I think most people would expect it to be false

[supple ether]

I can ping you in if you want

[leaden marsh]

^^

[safe dragon]

it should be false yes

++i == i++ would be true

[supple ether]

there's a thread for the 1.6 alpha

[lethal walrus]

I mean, you're increasing it and then increasing it again so it makes sense it's false

[lethal walrus]

why??

[leaden marsh]

that's assuming that the left executes before the right

[safe dragon]

because for i++ evaluation happens before it is incremented

[safe dragon]

ok true

[lethal walrus]

oh so it's doing ++i == i?

[leaden marsh]

i mean a better instance of undefined behavior i guess would be like

(new name)

[lethal walrus]

aw, i+++++i doesn't work

[leaden marsh]

it's undefined behavior in C though. Not because a compiler won't emit some functional code for it, but because the result isn't determined by the C standard

It's like INT_MAX + 1 in C

Signed integer overflow is a very classic undefined C behavior

[lethal walrus]

oh yes this is c

I had just been doing js lol

[leaden marsh]

It's probably(?) well defined in JS lol

[safe dragon]

well defined but does it make sense

[leaden marsh]

wdym

[cinder karma]

It is a bad idea anyways

Anyways

[safe dragon]

javascript loves to do things that don't make sense though for this one I dont' really see what it could do weirdly

[cinder karma]

Someone in Twitter is complaining about ieee754

[leaden marsh]

it's because the order of operations here are weird

[cinder karma]

So time to get into a stupid argument

[leaden marsh]

i++ is supposed to increment and be the old value, ++i is supposed to increment and be the new value

[safe dragon]

this makes sense I guess but it's a little funny. You basically just increment by 1 only to immediately override it

[leaden marsh]

right, but if they're in the same expression, which one executes first?

[cinder karma]

My general rule of thumb is that if I have to look up the order of operations table I need more parens

[safe dragon]

the more I think about this the less I'm sure this makes sense

[leaden marsh]

The point is, JavaScript will do something, which can be sensical

C is not JavaScript, and leaves a lot of the implementation details to the one who implements the compiler

[safe dragon]

sometimes it's just fun the ponder the very strange unusual code no one would realistically ever write to begin with

[safe dragon]

what's the complaint

[leaden marsh]

i love how Twitter can complain about a programming standard

like what an off the cuff thing to rant about

[cinder karma]

By definition Nan!= nan

Always

[leaden marsh]

Right, because it's not a number

[cinder karma]

Floats are also only partial ord due to this

Yeah

And they find it confusing haha

(I agree with the standard here.)

[leaden marsh]

I also agree with the standard here

[cinder karma]

Doesn't everg browser have their own implementation of JS?

[safe dragon]

well

[leaden marsh]

Yeah, though I'm not really sure if it's unspecified in JS?

A lot use the Chromium V8(?) engine anyways

[safe dragon]

not every browser has its own implementation of javascript. There's essentially three javascript engines that people actually use

V8 is the most common yeah

then SpiderMonkey for firefox and JavaScriptCore for safari(and a few random other things)

[supple ether]

<- smug look of firefox superiority /jk

[safe dragon]

I mean SpiderMonkey is defnitely the best name of the three

I do believe it's the slowest of the three engines though

not that it matters unless people go insane on their websites

[supple ether]

it's fast enough that I haven't noticed significant lag on anything other than reddit. (which was a while ago now) and on reddit I suspect the issue was that the infinite scrolling just kept making the page have more and more stuff on it and the bottleneck was probably DOM processing

[safe dragon]

yeah I haven't had any issues

[leaden marsh]

also firefox here, haven't really had issues either

[pliant snow]

alright so we'll trap the nerds in here then push them all out to sea right

[safe dragon]

I'll corrupt your arch cache

[pliant snow]

please, i can do that myself

[safe dragon]

so independent

[cinder karma]

#making-mods-general is suddenly always on topic

[crystal wren]

Isn't it great?

[tropic anchor]

👀 new channel just dropped?

[safe dragon]

don't worry it won't last and mods will have to keep saying "please take this to #programmers-off-topic"

[tropic anchor]

I can finally out my frustrations about the horrible workings of source generators without interrupting modding discussions

[supple ether]

maybe once in a while if we start to get into that border zone between stardew modding and general c# talk but overall I think it will go pretty well

[crystal wren]

Yes, give us the SAML rants!

[supple ether]

I did some sourcegen stuff the other day and it is... something

[tropic anchor]

Builds source gen -> has to restart VS for a change to take effect. Every. single. character

[supple ether]

YES

the playground online helps a lot though for threshing stuff out

[tropic anchor]

And how about the fact, I have access to loaded assembly type names and namespaces, but not THE ACTUALL TYPES

[crystal wren]

I'm just going to loop back to this from a previous mini rant: <#programmers-off-topic message>

[tropic anchor]

Behold my horrific attempt to map out the types for an assembly (this took 4 days (I'm tired))

Got anonymous event handlers to work though

[safe dragon]

is this like some xaml alternative

I'm not familiar with saml

[tropic anchor]

SAML is the UI framework I just released to alpha, when I started working on it I talked about having an xaml like language attached (hence the name)

[safe dragon]

ahhh

I don't envy trying to work this low level in C#

[tropic anchor]

Not a fan myself, but I can only play minecraft for so long until I start itching to do something productive

Not on weekends though...

[safe dragon]

makes me wonder how microsoft behind the scenes implemented the eventcallbacks in blazor razor files to accept both async and normal functions

I don't remember xaml allowing anonymous event handlers

though I barely used it

I remember just getting annoyed by the converters

[tropic anchor]

It doesn't, but I found out that, after moving around some checks, I could

And converters will still be a thing (kind off), since I can't easily take a string and convert it to a rectangle otherwise

[safe dragon]

ez

abc
d e
fgh

[tropic anchor]

Valid rectangle would now be something like 320, 320, 64, 64, which will then be parsed with a pre-build converter to a rect

[safe dragon]

tbh my experience with XAML comes from MAUI which was barely functional despite microsoft's claims

not a great introduction

[supple ether]

wait are you not just using a custom ISyntaxReciever?

[tropic anchor]

I remember having high hopes for this, but eventually deciding to learn flutter instead

[safe dragon]

yeah makes sense

[supple ether]

oh you're doing xml bindings that's a whole other can of worms

[tropic anchor]

Nope, this is all built from xml, I have absolutely no access to types outside the project assembly (except like that)

[safe dragon]

the better choice for sure

[crystal wren]

All of my XAML experience comes from Avalonia, which is... at least better.

[safe dragon]

I know nothing about avalonia other than that it's the option that's actually cross platform instead of just pretending to be like MAUI

whether's it's actually good I have no idea

[supple ether]

it's based on WPF conceptually

I use it because there's not actually a whole lot of options for robust, data-driven cross-platform gui frameworks

it's not amazing but it's less terrible than much of the competition

[crystal wren]

Uno technically exists, but I've tried that very little.

[cinder karma]

plays draw 5

[safe dragon]

opens paint

[supple ether]

who needs a responsive ui? just draw it in photoshop and hardcode the buttons

[safe dragon]

ship the figma design as the final product

[supple ether]

I presume this is why electron is so popular despite the bloat

[sonic mirage]

My clients when they don't understand that there is more than one size of computer screen in the world

[safe dragon]

just specify the resolution as one of the required specs

[marble jewel]

And make sure you specify everything in px not em

[supple ether]

I use vw and vh like god intended /jk

[marble jewel]

Like, who even needs flexboxes when you have the old position: absolute; left: 50%; margin-left: -400px;

[crystal wren]

Hey, stop looking at my Stardew mod's UI code.

[marble jewel]

I can't even tell if you're joking because Stardew UI code really do be like that

[supple ether]

float: right; display:inline-box; still gives me nightmares

the things we had to do before flexbox....

at least tables were better than frames shudder

[marble jewel]

frames, you mean overflow: scroll

[supple ether]

no I mean those ancient web pages that would make the navigation bar a frame. and also the sidebar. and the main content. and probably the footer

[marble jewel]

I'm sad that none of my old websites load on archive.org because I wanted to be clever and had a bunch of random crappy Javascript to load my pages

[supple ether]

not Iframes, frames

[marble jewel]

I was doing SPA before we had a good way of doing that

[supple ether]

https://developer.mozilla.org/en-US/docs/Web/HTML/Element/frame
these bad boys. do not miss

[marble jewel]

Sadly scrapers weren't able to pick up all of my dynamic content so the page is just empty now

[supple ether]

it's like tables made of other webpages

[supple ether]

rip

[marble jewel]

How about this for a blast from the past
https://www.spacejam.com/1996/

[supple ether]

yeaaaaaah

also neocities

[marble jewel]

Why can't the internet go back to that. Peak design right there.

geocities, hypermart, virtualave

[supple ether]

there's still plenty of that in userspace! it's just hard to find because seo favors all the streamlined garbage corpo shit

neocities is a revival of geocities!

I've also found some nice old-school style forums

[crystal wren]

For some reason, that page just reminded me of image maps of all things...

[supple ether]

honestly image maps weren't a terrible idea, people just abused them

[floral parcel]

#include <iostream>

using namespace std;
int main()
{
  cout << "Omg we have a programming channel now!" << endl;
  return 0;
}

[gaunt wadi]

the long discussed programming off topic chat is here

a momentous day for the server

#modding continues it's slow takeover

[pliant snow]

this is the new jukebox development channel

we're outsourcing

[gaunt wadi]

the number of modding related channels has quintupled in the last 5 years

[cinder karma]

We're writing it in rust

[pliant snow]

think of this channel as like chatgpt

[gaunt wadi]

[pliant snow]

and about as accurate

[cinder karma]

I can't hear you over rust

Look

We're even in the channel byline

[leaden marsh]

You can't spell rustaceans without C

[supple ether]

so when are we getting a stardew-oxide library to let us make mods in rust atra /jk

[gaunt wadi]

I don't even know what a computer is

[cinder karma]

Never

[supple ether]

its something you craft with a dwarven gadget

[cinder karma]

I have freed myself from the responsibilities of maintaining stardew mods

[supple ether]

I dont want to maintain mods I just want to make them

[cinder karma]

Tbh I don't want to make them either

[marble jewel]

Hey all, this sounds like #making-mods-general. Let's keep things off topic. /s

[crystal wren]

I'm shocked we haven't devolved into linguistics here yet.

[marble jewel]

What even is a language

What even is programming?

[crystal wren]

Now I want a programming themed parody of the one Haddaway song everyone knows...

[marble jewel]

https://tenor.com/view/roxbury-jim-carry-will-ferrell-gif-20980986

[cinder karma]

It's un-making-mods though

Rm -rf

[modest jewel]

sudo rm -rf *

[pliant snow]

just delete the directory your currently in

fuck this folder in particular

[supple ether]

how do I erase the boot sector /jk

[marble jewel]

I heard if you delete system32 it makes your computer faster

[supple ether]

it's true! gets rid of all the bloat

[gaunt wadi]

This is true, but only if you install linux afterwards

[cinder karma]

No

Naked metal

We die like kings

Assembly

[modest jewel]

Just grab a book and write the code bt hand

[cinder karma]

Hiss to the gpio pins

[supple ether]

I use my body's electric field to rewrite the electrons on the ram die to achieve the result I want

[pliant snow]

sudo rm -rf /boot ez

[fleet coyote]

Rare aquo sighting

[crystal wren]

I know, I'm surprised to see him outside of ||[redacted]||!

[fleet coyote]

Rare DH sighting too

[lethal walrus]

I feel so cool knowing what the redacted is..
probably

[gaunt wadi]

#sewers

[carmine plaza]

oh no, not the #sewers

i miss reading that channel

[supple ether]

what were the sewers?

[carmine plaza]

sorry for going off topic here but i can do a short explanation, iirc it was an off-topic chat mostly for images.

[supple ether]

huh, interesting

[leaden marsh]

"We die like kings" is such a hardcore quote

[regal ingot]

apparently it's a pretty hardcore metal song, too.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5_Ld5SxeNI

[leaden marsh]

Hardcore metal fr

[regal ingot]

not to be confused with "Die as a King", which is even harder-core metal
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5WnI8dnQSlw

[hardy jewel]

Just the old name for #images-and-memes!

people got upset that they kept being told to send their pet & game images to the sewers...

[crystal turret]

#include <deez>

[misty crane]

print("Hello world")

[crystal wren]

(You are correct. )

[safe dragon]

(you are cool)

[native topaz]

woah new channel?

[wind vessel]

new channel? 👀

[vestal crow]

a channel that's new?

[pliant snow]

N E W C H A N N E L
E W C H A N N E L N
W C H A N N E L N E
C H A N N E L N E W
H A N N E L N E W C
A N N E L N E W C H
N N E L N E W C H A
E L N E W C H A N N
L N E W C H A N N E

[austere comet]

This word search seems a little too easy

[formal garden]

assembly

[safe dragon]

interger

[tropic anchor]

This is something I'd both love to try to learn, and would hate to actually do

[jade spindle]

Im looking to learn a programming language, whats an easy one?

[silent sky]

peoples' first is usually Python

it's very beginner friendly

depends what you want to do, though!

[crystal wren]

That right there is one of the most divisive questions you can ask any programmer!

[jade spindle]

oh, thank you!

[silent sky]

(not me, i learned C# first because i wanted to mod stardew !)

[jade spindle]

Thats something i wanna do at some point too, is that a relatively easy language?

[silent sky]

uhh

[crystal wren]

Python and Javscript are two of the most common starting languages, but personally I don't really like suggesting them to beginners.

Purely because I feel starting with something that isn't strict on typing (you won't understand what this means right now, and that's fine) leads to... thinking of things in a less structured way, almost?

It's also certainly more difficult to go from something like Python to C# than the other way around.

[jade spindle]

i see

[silent sky]

i would personally recommend C# purely because of how useful it is and how easy it was (imo) to learn

[jade spindle]

hmm... C# it is, then.

[earnest cairn]

C# or Java is the best imho

[jade spindle]

Now i just gotta figure out how to get myself motivated and start watching a bunch of videos on it

[silent sky]

there's plenty of resources out there btw. for reference, i learned using a website called Codecademy

[earnest cairn]

make sure you use a course that makes you do exercises

[silent sky]

this was... what, 3 years ago O.o

[crystal wren]

What might help with motivation is the realisation that you'll be able to apply the C# to Stardew modding!

[silent sky]

i wouldn't recommend videos personally

[jade spindle]

really? what would you reccomend?

other than codecademy

[silent sky]

and the best way to learn is through exploration and trying stuff yourself - make a simple mod !

[crystal wren]

Free video courses on YouTube and the likes generally don't have exercises to do or anything along those lines. And actually using the stuff you learn immediately is normally one of the most effective ways to learn.

[jade spindle]

hmm... ok, ill try that!

[silent sky]

my first mod was 'Yet Another Sprint Mod' and it was crap, but it helped me learn C# and apply it

[jade spindle]

huh. nice!

[crystal wren]

And since then, Harv's now technically making money doing mod commissions with it.

[jade spindle]

Really? Im just interested in it as a hobby and for making my perfect version of stardew.

[crystal wren]

Aha, well if you're interested in modding Stardew, C# is 100% the choice.

[jade spindle]

Nice!

[crystal wren]

I don't really have any learning resources to recommend myself, unfortunately. All of my programming learning has been self-taught poking at things over the last... geez, 20 years or so?

[jade spindle]

i know a few programmer friends, should i ask them about it?

I figure itll be the easiest way to learn

[crystal wren]

Definitely get more opinions! But keeping in mind no language but C# will let you get deep into Stardew modding.

[jade spindle]

K! thanks!

[safe dragon]

damn I missed the classic question to start an argument between developers

my first programming language was C# cause it's what my university primarily uses in its courses

I made like a little xna catapult simulation for physics class in my last year of high school using XNA so that was my introduction

then uni was mostly C# as well with some Haskell, Prolog and a tiny bit of python

[thin estuary]

A TON of games, actually

[crystal wren]

All thanks to Unity!

Is Cobalt Core a Unity game?

[thin estuary]

MonoGame/FNA games are a thing too

And Godot

CC is MonoGame

[crystal wren]

Godot is... much less likely to use C# at least, but it exists.

[thin estuary]

Can’t forget Terraria

[safe dragon]

lots of games from back in the XNA days

it was definitely one of the easiest game dev tools to learn at the time

I don't look into modding much but I feel like the most popular language for writing mods is lua

[lethal walrus]

I should try run the 1.6 alpha on my switch

[crystal wren]

I still sorely hope the Switch port gets the modding changes.

Imagine Switch modding of the game then.

[lethal walrus]

I doubt it wouldn't (clarification: I'm sure it probably will)

[safe dragon]

wouldn't you need a devkit to run a game on a switch

[lethal walrus]

✨ linux ✨

it's a modded switch anyway, so technically if I had the port I wouldn't need a devkit

[safe dragon]

is anything ever complete without a rust binding for it

[thin estuary]

I found it interesting that Balatro is a Lua game

(Also please send help, I played like 30 hours of it in the past week)

[safe dragon]

now that's an engine I've never heard of, LÖVE

[thin estuary]

I’ve only heard about it because my hipster high school friend did some things in that engine back in the day

(That was 10-12 years ago)

[safe dragon]

seems like one of the smaller more straightforward frameworks much like xna was

seems neat

[crystal wren]

I would... well, love it if I enjoyed Lua!

[safe dragon]

I much prefer these over the giant ones like unity where learning the engine is half of the battle. Just let me dive into the code and give me a basic way to get started

[pliant snow]

How dare

[safe dragon]

do you like that one

[pliant snow]

Its a fun engine. Im shocked they got it running on consoles tho

[safe dragon]

I've only ever seen you talk about pico8 and I guess godot

[pliant snow]

Its like pico8s big brother

[safe dragon]

nice

pico64

if I actually had any motivation to make a game idk what I'd actually genuinely pick

uh as a fan of Bevy I'd say I like them

[pliant snow]

actually pico64 is coming out in like a week, its hype

[safe dragon]

not to brag but I am a contributor to bevy (I wrote some docs)

[pliant snow]

we'll add a bevy contributor role

[safe dragon]

thansk I did basically nothing and it will probably be deleted when the UI code redesign happens

lmao

look it me

ECS makes more sense to my brain so I like it

yeah I mean it excels if you have a lot of entities to handle

dreaded shaders

[pliant snow]

does it matter which engine i use if i never finish any project anyway

[safe dragon]

yes

pick the one you have the most fun in instead of what makes sense

nice

I'm the type to find some interesting project, read about it to the tiniest detail for a few weeks and then forget it exists and never look at it again

I never actually end up commiting to anything

I like learning about tech things but rarely have anything I'd actually want to do with them

like bevy

it keeps me busy

my actual job is in... idk tbh

it's mostly web dev from websites themselves to backend servers... but then also random other applications

a lot of database work

fullstack I guess

deep in the dotnet/C# ecosystems

for backend, aka ASP.NET Core is very good and I do enjoy that quite a bit. Front end... WebForms is a big no thank you, Blazor is pretty good but it suffers from trying to allow both serverside and client side applications, being worse at both as an end result

not much to say about the database, it do be a database and SQL is good at what it's intended for

Entity Framework for database interaction is quite good though it has its performance issues sometimes or suddenly changes its behavior after an update of the package

[frigid cove]

Ooo this channel is new

Great idea for whoever came up with it

[safe dragon]

the nerd channel

[frigid cove]

Being a nerd is underrated

[crystal wren]

And I'm not shocked this channel has apparently become an instant hit!

[dark veldt]

(10/10 great idea)

[frigid cove]

Might as well ask a question. For you devs with online aliases, do you keep just one GitHub account? I was reading the TOS for github and it says one personal account for a person so I'm thinking I have no other option. I tend to think about security a lot but I might be overthinking

Lol, at the end of the day it probably isn't enforced much

[lethal walrus]

does github not specifically have an account switching feature

[frigid cove]

It does, I might be wrong but that might be intended for enterprise accounts

They also consider some other kind of account I forget what the TOS called it

I think a machine account (one not ran by an individual)

[lethal walrus]

ah interesting

[frigid cove]

I'm probably just overthinking this. But ideally I would want one account for my Stardew mods and other projects under my online alias on discord

[lethal walrus]

you could make an organisation

if you just want them to be seperated but not different aliases

[frigid cove]

^I heard about that. I'll look into it I don't know much about it

[lethal walrus]

https://github.com/settings/organizations

[frigid cove]

Thank you appreciate it

That might be a good option. Honestly I might just use my account with my real name linked to it since I would want people IRL to see my online contributions

[lethal walrus]

you might not want people online to know your IRL name though

[frigid cove]

Yeah thats exactly what I was thinking

An idea I had was having my IRL account and then linking my online alias account in that profile

[pliant snow]

Keep in mind that your local git configuration also has some name and email attached to it, so you'll want to be careful if pushing publicly

[frigid cove]

Yes that too

[frigid cove]

If I do this if GitHub cared about TOS thats a violation then

[pliant snow]

I highly doubt they'd care, but you could also use gitlab or something else

[frigid cove]

Oh true haven't thought of that

[crystal wren]

Yeah, you can set things like that globally, which you want to be careful about. I just decided to stop caring and have my name on my modding repo.

[pliant snow]

I think you can set your git name/email on a per repository basis?

[lethal walrus]

you can

[crystal wren]

Can even set signing keys and such on a per repo basis.

[frigid cove]

Huh interesting

[safe dragon]

don't think my name is anywhere to be found on my github account

[frigid cove]

Got you

It's just rough cause I'm a computer science student as well. So plenty of work that I want my real name to be attached to

But if I want to link source code in a nexus mod description as an example

Then it links to my profile with my identity and all

I'll figure it out but thank you all for the ideas

[pliant snow]

Mine is on my github account. I've debated removing it, but eh

I'm more concerned about someone spamming my email attached to the commits lol

There are some non-github repositories I occasionally push to, idk if its worth the effort to do non-global configs really

[frigid cove]

I noticed for a sec lol

Im like WAIT NO

But yes I got your point

[sand frost]

I believed I've hidden my email address on github using their features to do that, and so far I haven't gotten any spam

[lethal walrus]

i'm fairly sure my real emails is on some commits, but I changed it to the hidden one at some point, don't think I got any spam on it

[crystal wren]

Huh, I'm actually not seeing my email address on any commit messages.

[lethal walrus]

not sure at what point I think I set it to be hidden, since the real email's on some commits

ok actually changed now

[crystal wren]

The most satisfying thing to get set up is the ol' vigilant mode + verified badge, though.

[lethal walrus]

the what?

[lethal walrus]

oo fancy

[crystal wren]

When I have the time, I am getting Stardew mods building directly on GitHub as well. Just that extra layer of fanciness and being able to verify what you've downloaded was built from what you can see.

And eventually uploading to Nexus via the build process... when they get an upload API.

[zinc charm]

I've been using this hacked together workflow for releasing sometimes: https://github.com/drbirbdev/StardewValley/blob/main/.github/workflows/release_mod.yml

[crystal wren]

opmu...

[zinc charm]

but it doesn't build, I just push release zips

[crystal wren]

Oh, that's another thing of yours!

[zinc charm]

yeah I have to trust some sketchy unofficial api with nexus creds

I didn't make the opmu thing, I just forked it

[modest jewel]

Trying to do anything network-related in python makes netcode look easy....

I was so used to just grabbing field.Value...What's this about requests being rejected

Makes me appreciate SMAPI (and Stardew) for how easy it makes things, though.

[tribal tinsel]

i cannot believe aquo and crumbs are talking here

[safe dragon]

just cause you're hiding it in the game modding category can't stop me

i see the words off topic I'm there

[tribal tinsel]

[safe dragon]

python makes netcode look easy?

now I'm curious what this netcode looks like

having written some networking logic in C# with TcpClient/TcpListener they're anything but simple the moment you actually need it to be reliable/robust

[fleet oriole]

I just found this channel! This looks like it will be helpful!

[modest jewel]

Oh I don't mean coding per se(?) but getting values. In SDV I can just tell the game "give me this" while here I'm struggling with errors left and right

I wanted to make a simple app that returns search results (to get used to python), but- request rejected, something about stale in XPATH...

[zinc charm]

Now that the other channels are "making- mods-*" i find this channel name bothersome

[lethal walrus]

#making-modders-distracted

[frosty echo]

#making-mods-programming-off-topic could maybe be a bit too long

[dark veldt]

Can you elaborate a little on what makes it bothersome to you?

[zinc charm]

Different naming format, nothing serious

[dark veldt]

Ah, I see. Well, the idea was that this channel wasn't intended to be about making mods, but rather a place where people could have random coding & programming conversations.

It made the most sense, server wise, to put it in the "modding" category, since that's where the majority of the coders frequent (with a few exceptions)

[lethal walrus]

#mod-showcase exists tho

[frosty echo]

Seems like the ideal use for thread to me, but oh well

[dark veldt]

Thread visibility was why we opted for a channel instead

[crystal wren]

#making-mods-nerds-section

[zinc charm]

Well i can't come up with a better name

[dark veldt]

#sebs-basement

[lethal walrus]

#making-mods-not-sdv-tho

[lethal walrus]

I genuinely like this though

[dark veldt]

I know. I love it

[lethal walrus]

it makes sense and fits with the stardew channel theme

[dark veldt]

But we opted for clarity first 🙂

[lethal walrus]

does that mean we can play role-playing games here though

[dark veldt]

ummm prolly not?

[pliant snow]

now I just need to know what the difference between #creative and #creative-discussion is

[dark veldt]

#creative is not for discussion. Posting of art only.

[lethal walrus]

aw
(explanation: [[Sebastian#Six_Hearts]])

[young lark]

https://stardewvalleywiki.com/Sebastian#Six_Hearts

[zinc charm]

Wait, what is art-gallery then?

[lethal walrus]

rare aquo sighting!

[lethal walrus]

featured art I think

[dark veldt]

I know! But that only happens on a Saturday, and well, time zones

art-gallery is for featured SDV-themed art that gets posted in creative

[cinder karma]

Have we managed a linguistics digression yet?

[dark veldt]

...and we're getting off-topic

[crystal wren]

Programming languages are a type of language.

[dark veldt]

Atra! I concede the floor to you

[cyan shadow]

Atraaaa
Any rust shenanigans

[zinc charm]

Talking about naming things is very on topic for programming

[crystal wren]

Atra's Rust shenanigans were completed with #lost-rustaceans going in the subject.

[lethal walrus]

what's people here's opinion on go?

[zinc charm]

Go is okay sometimes

[cyan shadow]

... My keyboard suggested shamanism instead of shenanigans, which supports my non programmer theory that y'all do witchcraft when working with harmony

[sand frost]

generic question: can I define multiple classes in the same C# file?

followup: should I?

[zinc charm]

Yeah

Maybe

[thin estuary]

1. yes you can
2. it depends

[sand frost]

Does the filename have any effect here?

[thin estuary]

nope

[sand frost]

Interesting

[zinc charm]

I don't think I've ever had a reason to put two classes side-by-side in a file, but having inner classes can be useful

[thin estuary]

if you expect people to browse through your code on Github, having 1 file per class, named accordingly, is preferred generally

[sand frost]

I'm trying to make ~15 essentially useless subclasses

I should probably ask more detailed questions (ie actually stardew relevant ones) in #making-mods-general I guess??

[dreamy vigil]

Re whether you should: technically it depends, but usually it's bad practice. It's better to have a namespace instead if you have a bunch of related classes.

[sand frost]

basically my subclasses are entirely empty, they just need to exist

(see #making-mods-general for context)

[dreamy vigil]

Yeah, I'd just have a nested namespace for those.

[crystal wren]

I like to pretend my C# is Java-level strict on this subject.

[sand frost]

DH, I've forgotten most of my java lol

All that's left is sheer instinct

[thin estuary]

the Java point was brought up, because the answer to 1. in that language is "no, you can't"

and "the files HAVE to be named the same as the classes"

[sand frost]

Interesting

Is a nested namespace Pathos' fancy word for a folder?

Also what the heck is a partial class?

[thin estuary]

making a class partial means you can have multiple files adding something to the class

[sand frost]

okay that sounds a little haunted and not at all anything I need

[thin estuary]

the main use case is for source generators

i've also found a nice use case for these in Season Affixes. my config class is partial. each affix is defined in a single file (possibly with multiple types). and then each of these files also has a partial class ModConfig and defines its own configurable properties

[lethal walrus]

ooh that's fancy

[dreamy vigil]

Ideally your folder structure should match the namespaces, but I was referring to the namespace X declaration. So for example, you might have the main class in namespace YourMod.Framework and the models in namespace YourMod.Framework.DummyModels.

[sand frost]

I'm not sure I understand entirely, but I think I understand like 60% and that's probably good enough for now

[safe dragon]

I never really have classes in the same file but we have a whole bunch of records we use for message passing in one of our applications and those records are all defined as one liners in their relevant files

[earnest cairn]

someone here using VS with intellij keybindings?

[sand frost]

I think what you're describing would be more necessary if I wasn't writing an extremely small mod

[safe dragon]

simple answer is that a partial class allows you to split the definition of a single class over multiple files

[crystal wren]

For what you're doing, I don't think it's really going to make a functional difference to maintaining the mod to just have them all in the one file.

They're essentially going to be tiny classes with some fields and that's it, right?

[safe dragon]

sometimes partial classes are used so you can extend them with more functionality in a way that inheriting wouldn't

they're handy I like em

[earnest cairn]

look at FTM's sourcecode and be traumatized

the entire mod is a single partial class split over 30 files