More accurate target detection.

[polar coyote]

Make ground targets ground targets. Some user-based planes are considered air no matter location (ig since the game only register a few entity as ground target, and that's a fixed number). Now make anything below 100m be able to get locked on by AGM and Air to Ground mode.

[shrewd skiff]

i think it would also have to be in contact with the ground maybe instead of just 100m, to prevent low-flying airplanes (perhaps low to avoid radar missles or detection) being seen as ground targets

[glacial merlin]

Simply an xml attribute for the craft that can be configured as ground target, this is air at default unless configured otherwise

[shrewd skiff]

I was thinking of that too, could be a cockpit option. But, aircraft on the ground i think should be trackable by laser guidance systems

Radar air-to-air missiles should also have trouble shooting at stationary, grounded aircraft, while infrared should be able to shoot them while on the ground. Also, there are stories of pilots in vietnam using their sidewinders to shoot enemy convoys on the ground, so perhaps those could shoot at certain ground targets

[halcyon lotus]

It's likely that with the new missile targeting systems that all craft will be able to be locked onto if they meet that sensor's requirements (i.e. you can lock onto an aircraft with a laser, it's just not very effective). While it would be nice to let people set their crafts to a specific type of vehicle to have them show up on the preferred targeting mode, it's likely that this won't be a big issue in SP2 due to the way that targeting works (using sensors on one aircraft such as radar or laser, and physical aspects such as radar cross section and heat emissions), which should make all crafts able to be targeted by any weapon*.

[shrewd skiff]

this is how I hope it work

[halcyon lotus]

I'm guessing that's what part of the missile overhaul is about.

[polar coyote]

But it isn't dynamic. I want changing-based-on-the-situation dynamic locking mechanism

Yk? Height based behavior

[halcyon lotus]

Suddenly doesn't want XML coding...

Sorry, I'm taking the piss.

[halcyon lotus]

The issue with having it be height based is that there's gonna be a ton of mountainous terrain, which means the height would have to be above ground, rather than above sea level, which may be harder to code and more bug prone.

[polar coyote]

Not quite. I believe in the devs

[shrewd skiff]

i think there is AGL

[halcyon lotus]

Another issue may be with aircraft flying super close to the ground (i.e. within whatever height makes a craft considered to be "ground") to loose lock. That could potentially be a stand in for aircraft using ground clutter to confuse radars, but I suspect that with the addition of Fox 1 and 2s, the devs will be implementing plane based radar, so the need to simulate that in the targeting mode would be superflouous.

I think a system to set any targets on the ground, moving below a certain speed, making them appear in the ground targeting mode is enough, given that missiles will most likely be dynamically targeting rather than using the SP1 method.

[polar coyote]

I was expecting realism. You can't target tanks (player made) in SP1

You're just trying to deny my idea like I was?

[halcyon lotus]

I agree that SP1's targeting was bad. I think you have a solid idea, I'm just raising some counter points.

[polar coyote]

Won't be that much if IR can track ground targets' heat signal. Cons are actually realism. Some parts in the game is just too OP or terribly unrealistic that it becomes unacceptable for me

[halcyon lotus]

My assumption isn't that IR missiles will "track targets," rather they'll track really really hot stuff, like a jet engine, and if for whatever reason your car has a jet engine, as a consequence it may be so hot that IR missiles can track it; just as an example.

[polar coyote]

Oh, I said "ground targets' heat signal", not just solely "ground targets"
Car engines can be hot

[halcyon lotus]

I'm not sure if they get hot enough for IR missiles to lock onto, not at a great range at least.

[polar coyote]

There should at least be a mechanic for that

Maybe laser tracking should work with planes at close distances to ground

[halcyon lotus]

I don't know at all though, I very well could be wrong.

[halcyon lotus]

In theory, as long as the beam can reach the target, it should be able to guide.

[polar coyote]

In theory and in game...

[halcyon lotus]

It would be fun to make a super-long-range-laser-guided-air-to-air-death-missile (SLRLGAAM).

[polar coyote]

Bruh... Uh, idk if that thing exists irl

[halcyon lotus]

Someone should pitch that to the DoD.

[shrewd skiff]

I think they did this with sidewinders in vietnam

[orchid dune]

Or

Make targets, target regardless if it's flying or not

[polar coyote]

There would be no classification for AAM and AGM then?

[orchid dune]

Just pulling words out but technically a Maverick is EO guided, as long as the missile can track the target it should be able to fire, just not that great I'd assume

Considering someone bombed a low flying (albeit stationary) Hip with a JDAM

Because what I'm feeling is that hard coding target types on player craft would require the game to sort of figure what counts as flying object (I'd assume it'll be tedious) but i am but a humble playtester who spent most of the time fiddling with decal pieces

[halcyon lotus]

It seems that SP2 won't have those anyway, because missiles will be user created for whatever role needed rather than choosing from AAMs and AGMs.

[polar coyote]

Bet

[polar coyote]

More accurate target detection.

[polar coyote]

Realism...

[shrewd skiff]

this is more realistic. Technically, you can use lasers or mavericks to take down aircraft, they're just more unsuitable. Likewise, you can use sidewinders to take out ground targets.

[polar coyote]

Hmmm

[shrewd skiff]

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/AGM-87_Focus
here's an air to ground version of the sidewinder

[polar coyote]

yeah, we're waiting until SP3 where we have realistic wave simulation

[halcyon lotus]

Dynamic bird collision models.

[pale whale]

i think there should be a thing when saving the plane to set if it's air or ground

also, there should be an option to override a weapon's targeting if you really need to

[polar coyote]

Let's reduce manual control. You can set a tank to air target and vice versa if the devs decide to implement your idea. Make the game decide it automatically and dynamically. Is a flyable tank ground or air target?

[pale whale]

true, but then planes that are on the ground will be falsely flagged as ground

it should probably be decided based on the parts

[polar coyote]

Wtf are you saying? Do you know my whole point?

[pale whale]

weren't you saying that crafts that are >100 meters should be considered ground?

[polar coyote]

Yes

[glacial merlin]

Automatic target type switch would be annoying tbh, watch me abuse this and climb above and below 100m rapidly so that my opponent has to constantly switch types and lock again

[pale whale]

so if an aircraft is landing it'll automatically be considered ground?

[magic meadow]

to make this actually make any sense the target should also be stationary

[polar coyote]

Yes, that's my point. Can a grounded plane targetable by AAM?
Tyguy joined rapping session, I'ma out

[shrewd skiff]

an airplane taxiing or stationary would be trackable by ground missiles, and a grounded plane would have trouble being detected by radar missiles (but not IR)

[glacial merlin]

Imagine being armed with AAMs only and your air target just suddenly becomes a ground target

[pale whale]

so a moving tank will be considered an aircraft?

[magic meadow]

oh actually yeah you right

[polar coyote]

Call in ground infantry

[glacial merlin]

Literally an XML based toggle attribute is the better option, just set the build to ground or air, its more compatible with the community, people who build actual aircraft you fly or vehicles you drive, or target builds that are meant to be shot at

[polar coyote]

I'll arm my plane with nukes cuz my future planes won't be slow enough for me to aim bomb drops or lock AGM on a nanobacterium target
And ofc I will always have ground attack to annihilate my grounded enemies

[shrewd skiff]

i think optimally there is no ground/air toggle and it's just based on more realistic depiction of the missiles (from the showcase with the targeting pod this may be what is happening)

[pale whale]

maybe in server settings there could be an option where the aircraft type detection is part-based (ex. tank treads make the craft considered a ground craft), altitude-based, or selected by the players

[tranquil summit]

This honestly seems like something not worth messing around with much.

[polar coyote]

Alt (rel. ground) based is my idea of this thread

[glacial merlin]

Tbh hell yeah time to Ace Combat standard MSL

[shrewd skiff]

we need to be able to destroy aircraft with jdams

[polar coyote]

So targeting pod and laser is gonna dominate IR, (semi-)radar,...?

[magic meadow]

I think if you really wanna do this
maybe it could work like this:
if the target has literally no ability to fly it could be counted as a ground target
so tanks: they can move, but can't genuinely fly. Ground target.
idk tbh that's just.. an idea

[glacial merlin]

Automatic target type switching is just not viable and easily abuseable, more abuseable than setting a flying aircraft as a ground target even if it isnt

Speaking of Ace, in game, a handful of parked planes are considered air targets and some ground targets, its not really that deep homies.

[polar coyote]

What about flying tanks on ground? Then what happens to it when it takeoff?

[shrewd skiff]

targeting pod is manual though, IR should be able to lock sources of heat basically any engine), radar should have trouble with low/stationary targets

[tranquil summit]

Please don’t

[magic meadow]

are we're using vehicles that would honestly not make sense 🥀

[pale whale]

A-40

[glacial merlin]

This is just a bad suggestion overall, too much ambiguity, easy to exploit, etc.

[polar coyote]

The community has thousands of brains that can generate 100% perfect randomness

[tranquil summit]

Exactly my line of thinking.

[pale whale]

yeah, it sounds good until you go too far down thinking about it

[magic meadow]

-# is he like.. 7 or something?
anyway
at this point just be able to set the vehicle to either
Ground target
Air target
Sea target
and everyone goes on with their lives and lives peacefully

[polar coyote]

This is where my idea kicks in...

[pale whale]

was this an advertising campaign the whole time 😭

[shrewd skiff]

i think it just depends on how the simulation of weapons works in the first place. From what we can see in the showcase, you could use targeting pods to destroy grounded aircraft, and if IR/radar is simulated accurately, you wouldn't even need ground/air distinction

[polar coyote]

Even easier to exploit. Imagine a naval entity being only targetable by AAM

[scenic river]

https://tenor.com/view/teto-teto-kasane-kasane-teto-vocaloid-utauloid-gif-15311444724393378481

[magic meadow]

it's so joever bro

[pale whale]

not as easy to exploit as constantly landing and taking off in a dogfight

[glacial merlin]

Well it is less exploitable than abusing Altitude

[shrewd skiff]

ok but actual radar missiles would actually be confused by that

[scenic river]

ashy the typa guy that can only count on his hands to 9 cause he always forgets the finger he’s counting with

[glacial merlin]

In Simpleplanes, creativity should go first, second goes this realism thing 🫴

[polar coyote]

At least their missiles has vertical angle limits so that's not very useful in dogfights. So if I can't lock on someone cuz they're constantly disrupting lock, they either can't because my aircraft is out of their vertical reach

[pale whale]

tbf I'd be confused too

[magic meadow]

froge chill bro they don't allow WCU levels of flaming

[shrewd skiff]

well not just landing but below like 50 meters or something radar missles can't really lock

[pale whale]

what about IR then

[polar coyote]

Are you being contributive or just coming up with nonsense and gifs?

[shrewd skiff]

IR should be able to lock both air targets and ground targets ok, there were AGM versions of the sidewinder that used IR tracking

[scenic river]

https://cdn.discordapp.com/attachments/1130127756227789033/1393036446927159347/attachment.gif

[polar coyote]

I agree. My idea was meant to be applied on semi- or active radar locking missiles
I think I earlier told Lunk that car engines are hot enough for IR

[shrewd skiff]

ah in that case I think yeah those would just break lock (if radar is implemented at least somewhat accurately), and car engines def are hot enough for IR

[pale whale]

what if you use radar missiles from the ground. it should be able to work fine, right?

[shrewd skiff]

if for example, if a mountain was close behind them, and if they weren't moving towards/away from you, then it would break lock. If you are looking up, or if there's just sky behind you, it can have lock, and it can also work if the target is moving in relation to the ground towards/away from you (not side to side, that's notching)

[polar coyote]

Theoretically. SAM seems to use radar

[shrewd skiff]

basically if you're getting ground clutter that can't be filtered out via doppler effect (relative motion towards/away from your craft), then it will break lock. Since most SAMS are going to be looking up at their targets, with no ground behind the targets, its ok

[polar coyote]

Okay @shrewd skiff up to ur business yap them I'ma go to heal my brain cuz I'm involved in Discord for more than a hr now I'ma go healing
My brain of a 13yo figure has been overclocked too much now

[scenic river]

can this homie please figure out basic grammar

[polar coyote]

Idk how Doppler has any relationship to Radar or IR tracking cuz typical planes speed is not enough to induce any significant effect cuz it takes up parts per thousands or smaller comparing to light speed

[shrewd skiff]

doppler is crucial to filter out background clutter. Basically, if an aircraft is moving in relation to the ground, the radar reflection from the aircraft will be different from the ground clutter, allowing it to be filtered out

[azure parcel]

@polar coyote @magic meadow @scenic river please tone down the hostility in here. if I see it again you'll be timed out

[scenic river]

https://tenor.com/view/horse-race-tests-jovial-merryment-yellow-gif-12096895532296602711

[polar coyote]

Now ask Dorian to simulate individual radar ping wave...

[shrewd skiff]

electronics are able to find very small changes in frequency, even if the difference is like a nanosecond

[magic meadow]

froge please stfu I told you this 3 times 💔
as for doppler having relations for radars
please search up what a Pulse Doppler Radar is
anyway I'm out of here
goodbye

[shrewd skiff]

I think if radar clutter/ pulse doppler is implemented in the game it would be a more empirical/hard coded model rather than a true simulation

[polar coyote]

However yeah can you help with froge just disrupting the conversation with memes and refrain to be contributive to the conversation? Sorry for pinging

[polar coyote]

I was thinking of array radar, idk how but basically figuring the differential detected on individual pins on an array

[shrewd skiff]

ah ok

[polar coyote]

Great. Now I'ma wait until this suggestion get approved. Or in an upcoming showcase

[shrewd skiff]

from how much more complex the current stuff shown has been I have hope that some form of IR/radar implementation will be in the game

[polar coyote]

I'ma vanish b4 Dorian come back. Gonna communicate in simpolplanez channol

[azure parcel]

yeah don't diminish the chat with irrelevant (and in this case hostile) gifs

[polar coyote]

Excuse me, did I became hostile at some point? If I did pls point it out so I won't repeat in the future (I tried my best)

[pale whale]

fr 😭

[real seal]

anything below 100m be locked on with AGM is ridiculous. I think you don't understand how air to ground weapons and air to air weapons work

[polar coyote]

How do you think?

[real seal]

inflared AGMs are essentially the same as inflared air interception missiles, but AGMs are designed to penetrate thicker armor and explode bigger in exchange of far worse maneuverability

[polar coyote]

I was talking about locking mechanism. I might be wrong but
..

[real seal]

point is that they can be far above 100m in the air and still can be locked on by AGMs, it just doesnt happen irl because it's not optimal + if your unit gets into a such situation where a measure that extreme is needed the mission is planned terribly

[real seal]

Radar can't just magically identify "that's a plane, that's a car", you should be able to shoot a tank with an AIM and you should be able to shoot a C-13 with an AGM

[polar coyote]

Nope, it can't.
Did I say it can?

I might be not knowledgable enough for this, sorry. But ima wait tmr night when tyguy can be online, he's an expert..

[shrewd skiff]

i think this was within the bounds of the current SP1 system where we have "air" and "ground", which is pretty unrealistic. Optimally ,we get a tracking system that is more simulated and in that case we just get rid of air and ground, because we really should be able to use either one (except air-to-air radar missiles) against anything for the most part

[real seal]

absolutely agreed

[pulsar hemlock]

There is an option in juno to make something either a rocket or a plane. Something like that would be nice.

[orchid dune]

Just remove air and ground target definition, removes the headache

[polar coyote]

Reali-

[real seal]

What? if anything, it's more realistic than the current system

[polar coyote]

You seems to have some kind of aggression on me, I can smell

[real seal]

No

its just that i disagree with what i dont agree with

[shrewd skiff]

this is more realistic if the sensors are implemented properly, also I think the targeting pod doesnt even need a lock (it sort of just tracks the ground and is manual)

[polar coyote]

I can agree upon this. At least the devs are very good at the new system, I'm just giving some advice based on the flaws from SP1

[real seal]

yep

[orchid dune]

True, also makes thinking more on which parameters of the missile is needed to achieve the intended role

[halcyon lotus]

The actual solution here is to scrap the separation between ground targets and air targets, and simply determine if a missile can track a target based on it's seeker, and if the target can be acquired by the seeker.

[shrewd skiff]

yes

[next hull]

With this, it would be cool to have an adjustable setting for the amount of cooling that a thermal seeker gets. This would increase the weight of the missile too and allow something like a maverick to be made and be able to pick out a hot engine from the ground. A lighter missile with less cooling could be used for air to air where the temperature differences are much greater, and reducing the cooling more could make it a rear aspect only missile. However, that might be better to make that an adjustable "era" setting.

[halcyon lotus]

While this would be cool, it might be outside of the scope of 1.0 SP2.

[next hull]

Yeah thats fair, an era setting might be a better fit

[shrewd skiff]

i would like an era setting so we could make bad missiles, rn it sorta looks like if you wanted to make a missile that turns poorly it would have to be heavy and therefore long range, but the aim9b for example turns poorly and has a short range

if no era setting then xml modding could prob be used to decrease missile performance too maybe

[next hull]

what we have seen so far shows that you can change the fin size and shape so that will affect performance, not just the weight

[shrewd skiff]

that is true but theres also the seeker cone

[next hull]

aim-9b's also cant turn well because of that right?
at least thats what I assume contributes to it

[shrewd skiff]

yeah they have a very small seeker too