#Rework ADS laws.

1 messages · Page 2 of 1

south karma
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Roleplay Rule 9
Follow your laws as ADS
ADS are exempt from normal escalation and safezone rules, as their laws moderate their interactions instead. However, there are rule limitations on the interpretation of ADS laws to prevent abuse.

Term Definitions:

Stations: Colossus Central, Medical Dispatch, TSFMC Flagship Halcyon, TSFMC Secondary Outpost, PDV Helios Fortress, and Camelot are all stations
Military craft: Ships with MIL, TSF, and PDV IFF designations. Note that Law 4 also has ADS treat unidentified craft as military craft.

Law Clarifications:

Law 2: You can chase targets you are in combat with to stations and engage them there, but if it has been too long and you've lost track of them, or you break off and disengage, you cannot begin combat if you catch them at a station later. This also applies to players fighting ADS; if they fight an ADS and the ADS hides in a safe zone, they can engage them, but if combat is broken off then they cannot.
Law 4: The "If Feasible" part of Law 4 establishes that you should use methods to disarm military ships that do not pose a risk to the operators if reasonable. The primary method is giving ships a chance to willingly disarm by hailing them. There is intentional wiggle room as to what is and isn't considered feasible, but there are limitations, which can be seen in the Law 4 Examples section below. Additionally, you can aim for crew on hostile vessels (IE, shooting back) in order to disable the ship faster, but once the vessel is disabled they are no longer valid targets, and would instead be considered under Law 3

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Law 4 Examples:

Try Peacefully Disarming:
Military or IFFless craft, no initial signs of hostility
TSF or PDV ships, no initial signs of hostility
First Strike Allowed:
Heavily armed capital class military or IFFless craft far more powerful than ADS unit
Military or IFFless craft approaching ADS unit at high speed with no prior communication
Military or IFFless craft which is part of a faction that has attacked ADS units this shift
Military or IFFless craft that flee disarmament, refuse disarmament or fail to respond to hails in a reasonable time frame
Military or IFFless craft whose operator has given reason over comms to assume they are hostile to ADS, such as claiming to destroy or hunt ADS

mint rover
ebon surge
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as long as it can reasonably fight back

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if it can't fight back anymore don't aim for crew

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and don't hurt crew if it's cooperating

south karma
mint rover
ebon surge
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if it's actively hostile you can use any methods to make it unable to shoot back at you

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and yes you're supposed to stop shooting when the ship is unable to fight

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the laws say this

south karma
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Gotcha

south karma
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Going to add in a law 3 section

faint ledge
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Also shouldn't trade Mall be included in the station list?

south karma
faint ledge
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Well then it shouldn't be the only place a civilian can reasonably access the buying trade console

south karma
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@ebon surge per the current laws, would ADS be allowed to engage boarders boarding another ADS vessel? Would that be enough for them to be considered a threat vector to your specific ADS unit under law 3?

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Seems like kind of a grey area

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Actually hm, I don't think we need Law 3 examples since it's usually pretty clear cut

south karma
south karma
ebon surge
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i should change it to say "ADS forces"

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because that's what it's supposed to be

south karma
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@ebon surge I'm writing up the file to make a PR for this rule change, is there anything else I should add/remove besides fixing up formatting and the like?

mint rover
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@south karma I like this:
Roleplay Rule 9
Follow your laws as ADS
ADS are exempt from normal escalation and safezone rules, as their laws moderate their interactions instead. However, there are rule limitations on the interpretation of ADS laws to prevent abuse.

Term Definitions:

Stations: Colossus Central, Medical Dispatch, TSFMC Flagship Halcyon, TSFMC Secondary Outpost, PDV Helios Fortress, and Camelot are all stations
Military craft: Ships with MIL, TSF, and PDV IFF designations. Note that Law 4 also has ADS treat unidentified craft as military craft.

But I do not believe that we need a lawchange tbh. if anything we need a relaxing of the rules on monolith because it is getting a bit too huggy.

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Laws are fine, I'd like an addition to the rules that outlines ADS targets OOC. And I gaurentee you so would the admins.

south karma
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That's why I have the examples in there, to change the expectation to "you don't shoot first without some kind of valid justification"

mint rover
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where crew are

south karma
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And after talking to an admin about the interpretation of it, they don't get that either

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Hence the examples

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Maybe the law needs to be changed if that's not coming across, but I thought it was pretty clear

mint rover
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beyond a simple clarification needed from june on if a SYN vessel is a military target

south karma
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My point is, the intention was that ADS hail people to disarm first unless they have a good reason not to. That is currently not enforced at all in the admin interpretation of the laws

mint rover
south karma
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I had Avalon tell me that an ADS nuking a stationary MIL ship with 0 hails was completely fine, and didn't violate the laws. That's not the intention of the current laws

mint rover
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And those specialist ships you can pull from point bravo

mint rover
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The intention of the laws is to disarm lessers

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like a sellsword

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or a little baby prae

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not a flashpoint/hammerhead/point bravo ship

south karma
mint rover
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also do not underestimate fortunates.

south karma
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It didn't move

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At all

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They came up to a parked ship and nuked it

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And Avalon gave it the green light; if people aren't expected to hail first for a medium sized MIL ship sitting stationary pointed away from the ADS, then when the hell ARE they expected to hail

cloud rampart
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ive been nuked docked to TM before ads just like nuking

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also wym dont underestimate fortunates they kinda suck

mint rover
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its an optional thing that is more courtesy than requirement.

south karma
mint rover
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its so over.

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prae? over. Fortunate? over. natisk? over.

mint rover
south karma
mint rover
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if it would actually do anything beyond setting me up to get shot dead, I'd hail more often

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but as it stands, ADS hails, waits for a response, they slowly rotate and broadside you dead

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or they just don't fucking answer

south karma
cloud rampart
mint rover
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Actually it is getting fairly hard.

south karma
ornate spindle
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how about we just have whitelisteds held to a higher standard for ADS gameplay

south karma
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Well, rule change

ornate spindle
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the issue isnt the ruleset imo

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it works fine

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its player engagement

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supplying overbearing rules causes issues

south karma
# ornate spindle supplying overbearing rules causes issues

Take a look through what I've written. The only thing that's new is the expectation that you need some kind of justification to shoot first, IE its a capital ship, the faction its part of has shot at ADS, the person piloting it has given you a reason that they might resist disarmament with comms chatter, its manuevering to attack you, etc

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#1436186841110806712 message

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Everything else is just stating admin rulings in writing

ornate spindle
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right now ADS already CAN use comms chatter to validate killing you

south karma
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Right now ADS can shoot first for any reason

ornate spindle
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and they already use being capital as a valid reason to hesitate

south karma
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Literally any reason

ornate spindle
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and that cant be changed without just outlawing it entirely

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otherwise players will never have FULL freedom

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it just cant work in practice

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making rules super specific wont help it

south karma
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Giving players full freedom on how to interpret their laws is already heavily restricted

ornate spindle
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yes and why add to the fire

south karma
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What's considered stations is extremely specific, so is whats considered military ships

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And those work completely fine

ornate spindle
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i think the laws dont need changing

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the actual admin enforcement needs a touch up

south karma
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I'm not changing the laws, I'm adding a restriction on their interpretation

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Which is admin enforcement

ornate spindle
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ok

south karma
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Basically, the only change is, you need some kind of decent justification to not give people some kind of a chance to peacefully disarm. There are tons and tons of good reasons not to do that, you just need one of them

sonic pagoda
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The issue isn't actually the laws it's the innate strength of ADS as a fragger role
Incredibly tough armor for their size
Incredibly strong ship guns
And truly impressive mobility options

Instead of limiting them
Why not give them genuine armor weaknesses have the AI surrounded by normal plasma glass

And remove some grills

Although the issue of the mercenary ship being immediately obliterated is still a thing I do trust that when mercenary ships are fully reworked they will be able to at least last a good minute against pre fracture ship guns

ornate spindle
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their strength is their firepower

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they dont have strong armor

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current combat ships SPECIFICALLY body ADS

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not most merc ships

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which is just a mapping issue

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outdated ass setups

sonic pagoda
sonic pagoda
south karma
ebon surge
solid radish
faint ledge
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I think part of the issue is unless your manipulator joins (and then builds a way in/out) the only way you can disarm is to destroy

ornate spindle
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i still stand by the concept of borg modules for ADS manipulators to allow them to wizard skip

kindred violet
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I think we shot down 8 ships

idle fractal
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Stopped saying it when the ships just continue to not listen

kindred violet
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Because people would panic and run anyways

idle fractal
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And either try to fight or flee

kindred violet
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Player problem

idle fractal
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Yes

kindred violet
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It doesn’t work

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Its instinct

idle fractal
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Sure, some clarifications on laws are nice

kindred violet
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Fight or flight

idle fractal
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But players are players

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Can't change that

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I can count on one hand how many times a mil ship actually listened

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And complied

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It does happen

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But when mercs/faction players continue to fuck around. They will continue to find out

south karma
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Gunnery servers can be replaced but you need to research it, so its usually the simplest way. The alternative is them removing all their wrenchable non 20mm and non mining laser weapons, but for capital ships that's kinda hard to justify

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It just depends on the situation

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If people are complying I make it work

kindred violet
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Instead of rule enforcement mechanical enforcement would be better

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Like a system where the IFF outline of a ship changes depending on the amount of gunnery that is used up for its class

south karma
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I don't see how we mechanically enforce giving people a chance to peacefully disarm as standard operating procedure

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Or are you talking about enforcing what's considered disarmed

kindred violet
south karma
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That isn't included in my PR

kindred violet
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Systems that allow us to identify threats

south karma
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I would very much like ADS to have more information and more ways to see if people are actually disarming, but I think what is and isn't considered disarmed is fine being open to interpretation

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For example, I encountered a Vulture, and since they needed their gunnery server for mining (and their main guns can be argued to be for mining as well), I just had them remove all their anchorable non 20mm non mining laser weapons

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I taylor it to the situation

mint rover
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We had quite a few kills.

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Incredible how the not pirate company performed the most privateering style actions

ornate spindle
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ruined it for everyone else

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as it usually goes

mint rover
ebon surge
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i wanted to try give ADS a weapon scanner console

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that always shows blips for shipguns

idle fractal
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biological scanner, ship weapon scanner

rough totem
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that would be super based.

faint ledge
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I like the idea of ships lighting up when someone selects guns on the gun console

ebon surge
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@mint rover

mint rover
ebon surge
# mint rover

but this DOES mean you can now legally shoot people docked to sevas or whatever

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confirmed legally

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no discrepancy between laws and admin consensus

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once merged

south karma
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That seems rather problematic

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It should probably be reworded

ebon surge
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you kill them

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and this doesn't change anything about how ADS treats chimera

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the primary change is in the directive law

south karma
ebon surge
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how would they even do that

south karma
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Commanding or working with asakim

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It's a common situation

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Or just using manipulators if there's a hole in your hull

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Its extremely common if there's a Wyvern, and there's a wyvern many rounds

ebon surge
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i'm not sure whether to count is as an inactive bioweapon

south karma
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Hm

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Maybe leave it open to interpretation?

ebon surge
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inactive means more so like letoferol syringe

south karma
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Gotcha

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Seems reasonable then

inner dune
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This just proves why logic laws never work.
Everyone reads the same laws different

kindred violet
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Because people abuse laws when they don’t specifically state this or that

south karma
snow pulsar
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I will stop when they fix the damn chimera lag

sonic pagoda
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Honestly a good rework would be just making it so ADS are given

Different laws from each other so they don't work together and that asakim cannot abandon their ship unless it's completely cooked
Because one of the big issues is them teaming up

south karma
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ADS and Asakim are like, meant to team up though

idle fractal
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That's their whole fucking point of existing

idle fractal
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Why wouldn't they stick together

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If asakims were just normal soldiers sure

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Desertion. Yada yada

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But asakims are bioweapons themselves

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And ads are

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Well mechanical weapons?

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Point is. They don't break their loyalty

cloud rampart
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Ads is more laggy than chimera

mint rover
snow pulsar
ornate spindle
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you havent seen what chimera does

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its shitcoded so its tile growths overlap

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infinitely

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it attributes alot more than ADS when it gets big

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ADS is the main culprit USUALLY only because theyre more active as a threat

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every shift

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use yo brain

idle fractal
cloud rampart
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1/10 chimera rounds is super laggy

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9/10 ads rounds are very very laggy

ornate spindle
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where as the 1/10 is chimera

cloud rampart
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well most aremixed

ornate spindle
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READ

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READ THE WORDS

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PRIMARILY

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PRIMARILY

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as in the MAIN threat

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is USUALLY ads

cloud rampart
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true....

mint rover
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so its only ADS left

ornate spindle
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Thats why im saying chimera are worse and ads arent nearly as problematic in terms of lag

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Because everyone just stomps them because if they dont its even worse

steady nest
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Also grid cleanup eats the loose grids

mint rover
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Didn't we code something for that specifically.

ebon surge
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i think chimera lag is just plain fake

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as well as ADS lag

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it's probably just normal server lag

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misattributed to whatever is going on

steady nest
# ebon surge no?

No no, chimera biomass defo contributes to lag, when it spreads over massive areas and keeps checking if it cann spread. Around a lot of yit you start to chug

ebon surge
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grafana disagrees

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i've looked and the biomass registers low

tight wyvern
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How many ms does each tile eat to do it's spread checks

forest tartan