Magic the Gathering

[twilit canyon]

color shifted

stop thinking of their base cost and their impending cost. these are the titans

[atomic harness]

[twilit canyon]

green overlord unfort does nothing for the rock

2 mana etb enchantment mill 4 grab a goyf or a lili

[atomic harness]

Sigh if only takenuma was playable here (too expensive w/o legend scrimblos)

[twilit canyon]

4 turns later, its a 5/5 with haste

[atomic harness]

Yh bale is giga hot I'm in

powers goyf, gets you to goyf

[twilit canyon]

if u can get it cheap, it may be worth it

[atomic harness]

hopefully ppl aren't noticing it unlike that blue leyline

[twilit canyon]

also eyeing [[unholy annex]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/dsk/118/unholy-annex-ritual-chamber

Unholy Annex <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manab:292901508872273920>

Enchantment — Room
(You may cast either half. That door unlocks on the battlefield. As a sorcery, you may pay the mana cost of a locked door to unlock it.)
At the beginning of your end step, draw a card. If you control a Demon, each opponent loses 2 life and you gain 2 life. Otherwise, you lose 2 life.

Ritual Chamber
Enchantment — Room
(You may cast either half. That door unlocks on the battlefield. As a sorcery, you may pay the mana cost of a locked door to unlock it.)
When you unlock this door, create a 6/6 black Demon creature token with flying.

[twilit canyon]

3 mana better phyrexian arena

cus it draws on end step

later becomes a 6/6 demon for 5

this one is probs worse

[atomic harness]

hmm not sure on that one

[lusty trench]

Only issue is the additional life lose but that’s both manageable and it can flip to a heal

[atomic harness]

yeah I think bale is defo the go to

life loss is kinda scary since you mention 6(?) or was it 5 being lethal

w phlage and co

[twilit canyon]

if u can get some of the black overlord cheap

i'd test it

[atomic harness]

ya I'm thinking 2-3 seems neat

if you bin saga or itself that's also a goyf buff

[twilit canyon]

ye

and again its like paying 2 mana for one of the titans

in the green overlord's case, its 3 mana for a mini prime titan

and it enables domain by itself

the white one is grave titan colorshifted with better tokens

[atomic harness]

Finally a good cycle

[twilit canyon]

the red one is arguably better than inferno titan

worse vs wide

but better vs not

blue is mid but thats the price to pay for being kind of efficient

fun interaction with black overlord, it can grab grist

lol

[atomic harness]

Hot

[lusty trench]

I still find grist’s design wacky but charming

I certainly wouldn’t of thought of that

[twilit canyon]

why not

it says on the card

i am a 1/1 insect creature in addition to my other types

[lusty trench]

Cause my brain sees the card has the planeswalker boarder

[twilit canyon]

as long as it isnt on the battlefield

[lusty trench]

And it immediately sorts it into the planeswalker pile of cards in my mind

[twilit canyon]

magic players are losing to the cant read allegations

[lusty trench]

I’m a dragon ball fan I have lost to those allegations long ago

[atomic harness]

Sigh...

[twilit canyon]

keeping the sagas does get u a new grave hate card in the ghost vacuum bwt

[[ghost vacuum]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/dsk/248/ghost-vacuum

Ghost Vacuum <:mana1:292901508373282827>

Artifact
: Exile target card from a graveyard.
, , Sacrifice Ghost Vacuum: Put each creature card exiled with Ghost Vacuum onto the battlefield under your control with a flying counter on it. Each of them is a 1/1 Spirit in addition to its other types. Activate only as a sorcery.

[atomic harness]

https://mtgdecks.net/Modern/the-rock-decklist-by-joseph-herrera-2191616

so want to test out boner-chan, ghost vac, balemurk

oh and lotv

[twilit canyon]

dont go at em all at once

[atomic harness]

move some obms to side maybe or move it fully?

[twilit canyon]

the way to do it

[atomic harness]

oo

[twilit canyon]

move -2 obm

+2 balemurks or emperor

-1 nihil +1 ghost vacuum

if u really cant be assed, cut the bowmasters and toss them to the side by moving some stuff around like removing a 3rd sphere and a 3rd break the ice

and then play 2 balemurks or lili

if emperors dont work out, go to lotv

if balemurk doesnt work out, go to lotv

[lusty trench]

Oh right been meaning to ask yall what your thoughts are on meathook 2

[twilit canyon]

thinking about it, this list wont care much about endurance cus it already runs a lot of grave hate and emperor is more

[atomic harness]

I have high hopes for balemurk since it's like extra goyfs

[twilit canyon]

grabs goyfs, grabs fulminators, grabs grist

[atomic harness]

and boosts the former too

[twilit canyon]

the thing about the mill is that its not tied to the grab

it says mill 4

then u can grab a non-avatar or planeswalker

[atomic harness]

that's so nice

[twilit canyon]

i'd honestly consider it over bones as a whole

this list honestly already has a lot of grave hate build in with saga and spellbomb and if u add vacuum thats already a ton

[atomic harness]

yeah maybe not boner-chan. Bale should hopefully solve the deck struggling to find threats (aka goyfs)

[twilit canyon]

its also an easy card to side out bc the card can end up too slow for some match ups

but thats fine

[atomic harness]

which was why I wanted bone and the gy hate was incidental

[twilit canyon]

u want something real jank btw?

[[doomsday excrutiator]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/dsk/94/doomsday-excruciator

Doomsday Excruciator <:manab:292901508872273920><:manab:292901508872273920><:manab:292901508872273920><:manab:292901508872273920><:manab:292901508872273920><:manab:292901508872273920>

Creature — Demon
Flying
When Doomsday Excruciator enters, if it was cast, each player exiles all but the bottom six cards of their library face down.
At the beginning of your upkeep, draw a card.
"All stars grow dark. All worlds come to an end."
6/6

[twilit canyon]

how? [[persist]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/mh2/96/persist

Persist <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manab:292901508872273920>

Sorcery
Return target nonlegendary creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield with a -1/-1 counter on it.
In the tight-knit doun of Mistmeadow, death is less important than duty.

[twilit canyon]

2 mana 5/5 that draws a card on upkeep and is immune to fatal push

[atomic harness]

persist does not cast it right so it's just a swell fellow

[twilit canyon]

yup

using its fair cast form

is a different deck entirely

[atomic harness]

castform... the woat

[twilit canyon]

unlike that shit

[atomic harness]

sounds janky but fun yeah maybe not yet for me, I'm not that brave

[twilit canyon]

yea

lol

in theory u cast the card and mill them out the last 6 the same turn

and i know some ppl would love to try [[lim-dul's vault]] + cast excruciator

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/c13/197/lim-dûls-vault

Lim-Dûl's Vault <:manau:292901508754702338><:manab:292901508872273920>

Instant
Look at the top five cards of your library. As many times as you choose, you may pay 1 life, put those cards on the bottom of your library in any order, then look at the top five cards of your library. Then shuffle and put the last cards you looked at this way on top in any order.

[twilit canyon]

as a quite literal, jank 8th doomsday

[atomic harness]

[twilit canyon]

it makes the pile and cracks it on upkeep

jank yes

but thats still funny

[atomic harness]

Currently looking at 2 Mana bolbari cards to see if we missed anything

[twilit canyon]

idt anything super playable nowdays

maybe bob

but meh

u gotta keep energy in mind still

sure goyfs can wall energy

but they can still create super fucked boardstates if u leave them alone

[atomic harness]

nod nod

It's kinda crazy how obm is super mid nowadays

Andrea called it weak the entire vid and he said it was good like one time, also didn't feel too good to play

[twilit canyon]

the thing about obm is that drawing cards is not very common in modern lol

despite the one ring being popular

and frog

decks dont often draw cards

[atomic harness]

Tell em

[twilit canyon]

its specifically good vs blue but blue has some insane denial for the card

dont get me wrong tho i do think the card is quite solid

[gritty nest]

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/LzjNcdWvREeD3Y5NBqFy0w What do you guys think I can cut for Vandalblast? thinking Consider honestly

[trail anvil]

tbh for commander consider probably ain't it unless you have synergies with it

go for it

am I missing something? they just didn't give me a stop to cast my commander. I tried full control and putting a stop on main phase and it still wouldn't let me

thank god the opp conceded

[gritty nest]

I’m also trying to find a home for my trouble in pairs

I’m not done uploading all my decks though

[atomic harness]

Sea of Clouds is a nice battlebond land you missed

[gritty nest]

I don’t have one

These are my literal irl lists card for card lol

[atomic harness]

understandable
Do you often have a full hand? decanter seems very expensive for what it wants to do

[gritty nest]

I like it as a wubrg rock more than anything. Need to get the other talisman though

[golden plover]

Damn, lost with neoform combo because the opponent was main decking WAR Ashiok???

What the fuck

[glad peak]

Should’ve played around it

[golden plover]

This draft deck actually went off so hard

Karn was kinda winmore tho

He never got to stick

[twilit canyon]

i wanted to try this draft but i have been busy af this past week

didnt really play much if any arena

[golden plover]

It's a decent draft

It not being phantom is huge

But it kinda feels a bit unbalanced

Rakdos and Selesnya are both stupid fast

And everything else is digging for artifact synergy

Karn was a useless card tho. Feels like a trap. I'd definitely avoid him next time

Mishra's Bauble tho? Insane card in draft

Engineer was my P1P1 and he definitely is one. There's just too many silly things you can do with him

My go to to start generating value was him turning a map into Ichor Wellspring and looping that and whatever else I could until I had a hand

[twilit canyon]

interesting

[golden plover]

The funniest tho was sending thought monitor and playing it on like t3-4

You just made too much value for them to answer it

[twilit canyon]

yea its kind of a crazy card pool overall

[golden plover]

There's lot of good synergies in the pool

But I'd def prioritize goblin Engineer and/or Mishra's Bauble

Def wouldn't recommend grabbing Karn

He did nothing for me and was killed on sight every game

[twilit canyon]

makes sense but

if he was removal magnet...

[golden plover]

True. He did protect my other guys

But I wasn't too worried about removal between goblin Engineer and scrap trawler

I could get all the small guys back

[sleek ferry]

Man, wrenn & realmbreaker is so underrated

[urban crane]

What do people think of mono white angels?

[golden plover]

What do you gain from not splashing green?

CoCo is huge for angels

[sleek ferry]

I'm ngl

I'm goated in the control mirror

I got to have like a 80%+ win rate in the control mirror

[zinc shard]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_2hLhMWBUNg

[stark skiff]

https://preview.redd.it/sld-secret-lair-x-ghostbusters-the-real-ghostbusters-v0-60jgj8vbe7pd1.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=0a8cbf6866d5a11246113682e373f8f65aae16d7

https://preview.redd.it/sld-secret-lair-x-ghostbusters-the-real-ghostbusters-v0-6yyc27wbe7pd1.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=69363d1a730d654acb37bd2e8177d44af6f7c3af

https://preview.redd.it/sld-secret-lair-x-ghostbusters-the-real-ghostbusters-v0-ffzov3wbe7pd1.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=7e24153f1a898ec331b141568aa121d293733caa

https://preview.redd.it/sld-secret-lair-x-ghostbusters-the-real-ghostbusters-v0-mrcb7bvbe7pd1.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=e01b3ba49c3b04c1ed440f0dd4a8a89118964f3b

https://preview.redd.it/sld-secret-lair-x-ghostbusters-the-real-ghostbusters-v0-4a8xzavbe7pd1.png?width=640&crop=smart&auto=webp&s=339cb6d8ecaad1975a8f551c97e1ff78ffccb1bc

[gritty nest]

How expensive is it to get into standard

[twilit canyon]

anywhere from like 80$ to 600$

[gritty nest]

Let’s say meta but not trying to drop money on sheoldred

[lusty trench]

What does that mean

[zinc shard]

The commanders from Duskmourn wont be on Arena

[lusty trench]

Ah

Pioneer masters tho

https://tenor.com/view/flapjack-captain-knuckles-impressed-face-gif-22382537

[gritty nest]

Can’t wait for PMC

[golden plover]

They're finally actually making it

[gritty nest]

So I’m looking at two decks

Gruul prowess
Boros mice

[trail anvil]

kinda sad about missing out on the master of keys, but otherwise I'm fine with missing the other commanders

[trail anvil]

those are definitely both good decks

[twilit canyon]

https://tenor.com/view/crying-emoji-dies-gif-21956120

[golden plover]

Sacrifice is like maybe the only playable one, yeah?

[twilit canyon]

noxious and pimage are huge

but its harder to want damnation when we just got toxic deluge

[glad peak]

In 1v1, hex is good sideboard too

[twilit canyon]

and noxious/pimage are not... great

[trail anvil]

getting damnation after toxic deluge is so unfortunate lmao

[twilit canyon]

hex is also good ish

but it'll depend on if historic legal or not

if not, timeless is just too fast for it

honestly historic may be too fast for it

[sleek ferry]

Do they pick and choose what special guests are historic legal or something?

[twilit canyon]

yes

[trail anvil]

they don't allow free cards

and some other rules, I think land hate

[sleek ferry]

That’s wack

[twilit canyon]

fast mana

also out

[trail anvil]

oh so sacrifice ain't touching the format probably?

[sleek ferry]

Btw can somebody explain to me how pioneer masters isn’t just destined to be the middest set ever

[fallow citrus]

I'd love to but I could only care about pioneer if you paid me to

[golden plover]

I want Damnation... In Pioneer

My dream Pioneer prints are Damnation and Dualcaster Mage

[golden plover]

Oh wait right, Noxious is a huge sideboard card

Since it's instant speed no mana response to reanimator decks

They target their Atraxa and you Noxious it

[trail anvil]

ik bring to light will be in there, trying to think of other stuff

[golden plover]

[[Hidden Stirrings]] is huge

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/dgm/12/hidden-strings

Hidden Strings <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manau:292901508754702338>

Sorcery
You may tap or untap target permanent, then you may tap or untap another target permanent.
Cipher (Then you may exile this spell card encoded on a creature you control. Whenever that creature deals combat damage to a player, its controller may cast a copy of the encoded card without paying its mana cost.)

[golden plover]

Why do I keep thinking it's "Stirrings" I've literally played this deck

[trail anvil]

because you're putting it together with [[ancient stirrings]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/2xm/151/ancient-stirrings

Ancient Stirrings <:manag:292901508654301185>

Sorcery
Look at the top five cards of your library. You may reveal a colorless card from among them and put it into your hand. Then put the rest on the bottom of your library in any order.

[trail anvil]

it's funny how much of pioneer is just standard cards though jesus

[golden plover]

Yeah, standard's power level has been wack for a bit now

[trail anvil]

actually less standard cards and more cards that have already been in explorer but owell

[golden plover]

And pioneer has definitely shown it

We've been at 95% of having paper pioneer for like 2 years now

It would have taken one good anthology

1 was good, 2 was okay

3 gave us useless shit like Obzedat and [[Accorder's Shield]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/m14/204/accorders-shield

Accorder's Shield <:mana0:292901467382087680>

Artifact — Equipment
Equipped creature gets +0/+3 and has vigilance. (Attacking doesn't cause it to tap.)
Equip (: Attach to target creature you control. Equip only as a sorcery.)
An Auriok shield is polished to a mirror finish even on the inside, enabling its bearer to watch foes ahead and behind.

[twilit canyon]

u would be surprised

at the amount of shitters who complain we dont get more unplayables

[trail anvil]

I think people are looking for random shit to include as so called dank tech

[twilit canyon]

we get more insane ppl usually

[trail anvil]

holy shit we found the unrated explorer players

I wonder if that's like a 10 minute queue

[copper pecan]

explorer is like

by far the least popular format on arena

[golden plover]

Who the fuck is building non-competitive pioneer decks

Pioneer is kinda a format that's pretty much exclusively played in tournament settings tbh

Also what do they mean tournament pioneer is "far from complete"

Again, we've been like 90% there for years

[glad peak]

Bro thinks we’re still in the initial phase where there were weekly changes

[trail anvil]

how do y'all handle cards that are dependent on the opponent when you're playtesting? i.e. esper sentinel

[lusty trench]

It's really difficult to actually quantify the advantage you'd get without actually piloting another deck against it

Generally speaking though just go with your gut what you feel like seems right

[golden plover]

Yeah you just kinda go "The most realistic scenario this deck would do is" and hope

[stark skiff]

https://images-ext-1.discordapp.net/external/5Nw7gA59ew_5yHHdDrPWAhLoeBDrtUOgo-exK-mwbsM/https/i.redd.it/biq0cjx0p9pd1.png?format=webp&quality=lossless&width=815&height=458

[golden plover]

Kaito being Jace feels wrong

[last glen]

smh no need for the personal attacks

[copper pecan]

wack that they didn't make kaito a kaito card

like there is literally a planeswalker named kaito

[twilit canyon]

thats probably why they didnt do that

[stark skiff]

When does the next SLD go up anyways

[golden plover]

As usual, basically no value in this drop

LoTDR is like $15

Unraveler of Secrets is such a shit Jace pick

[atomic harness]

this what you're into lil bro?

[golden plover]

Like if we're gonna pick a garbage Jace, [[Jace, Cunning Castaway]] could use a new print

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/xln/60/jace-cunning-castaway

Jace, Cunning Castaway <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manau:292901508754702338><:manau:292901508754702338>

Legendary Planeswalker — Jace
+1: Whenever one or more creatures you control deal combat damage to a player this turn, draw a card, then discard a card.
−2: Create a 2/2 blue Illusion creature token with "When this creature becomes the target of a spell, sacrifice it."
−5: Create two tokens that are copies of Jace, Cunning Castaway, except they're not legendary.
Loyalty: 3

[golden plover]

He's like $2 max

But he's got 1 printing and his Comicon art

His Comic-con art is AWESOME. Unfortunately it's by Terese Nelsen tho

[stark skiff]

WotC knows what you want in commander kid

[golden plover]

This whole cycle has great arts

Really wish it wasn't... her

[atomic harness]

they havent given me anything good aside from blue synthesizer

[stark skiff]

sigh typical blue artifact player

[atomic harness]

Hating on the best card type and best color I see

Word me tummy ache

[golden plover]

Lmao why is Urza T-Posing

[stark skiff]

lmao get rekt kid

[atomic harness]

Sigh he's just busy

[trail anvil]

man why did the good mtg artists have to be the crazy ones

[golden plover]

At least Wylie Beckert and Dominik Mayer are cool

[trail anvil]

so far

[atomic harness]

Wao komi what about uhh

Steve argyle...?

||oh whats the controversy with terese btw it's been a while||

Mark poole made ugin's labyrinth? Holy

[sudden lava]

Moxfield added a thing that says what makes each token in your deck

https://pbs.twimg.com/media/GXoKE5ybUAAlSEN?format=png&name=small

[trail anvil]

she was big on qanon and other far right shit

[sudden lava]

https://tenor.com/view/surprised-pikachu-pokemon-shock-surprised-pikachu-gif-15357817

[atomic harness]

Sigh komi you like blue and artifacts right

[sudden lava]

Steelburr champion is my source of steelburr champion token? no way

(works better for stuff like food/treasure of course)

[trail anvil]

I'd say I hate synthesizer in standard but that's probably just cause I don't wanna spend the mythic wildcards on it

[stark skiff]

Just need to admit that it is played out kid. Nothing new or exciting about it.

[trail anvil]

BIG was a horrid set release method as far as arena

I would've preferred another aftermath style release cause then at least you could craft the cards reasonably

[atomic harness]

Sigh

turn 1 mishra's bauble overgrown tomb nethergoyf pass

[sleek ferry]

I wouldn’t consider this dependent on the opponent

Because like, everybody has to cast noncreature spells

When I think of cards dependent on the opponent

I think of like

[[outrageous robbery]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/mkm/97/outrageous-robbery

Outrageous Robbery <:manax:292901509082120202><:manab:292901508872273920><:manab:292901508872273920>

Instant
Target opponent exiles the top X cards of their library face down. You may look at and play those cards for as long as they remain exiled. If you cast a spell this way, you may spend mana as though it were mana of any type to cast it.
"When you can't erase your own trail, leave as many false ones as possible." —Etrata

[trail anvil]

maybe in cedh. I've been through a ton of table rotations (or even 1v1s) where I got no triggers

especially if people specifically play around it

[sleek ferry]

I think especially in commander, the chances of you being in an all creature focused table is slim

[trail anvil]

well then there's also the number of people willing to play off curve/their hand facilitates it, they don't have to be creature focused but just have creatures early on, etc

[sleek ferry]

Sure, but I think expecting somebody to not develop their mana, for the sake of either drawing removal, or hoping somebody else to draw removal, isn’t the move

[atomic harness]

Wow son how come ppl pay the 1? are they silly??

Also you can buff esper sentinel's power so you can draw

[glad peak]

Baseline just do 1 per rotation

[gritty nest]

https://www.moxfield.com/decks/2zlzd-iXNUOTsiZ1BI2v2A Added this to my IRL lists (yes its actually a card short i didnt know this)

[gritty nest]

all my decks uploaded

[golden plover]

There we go. Now I can switch back to explorer

Love when the aggro deck thinks they've got it and I just go "48 damage out of nowhere"

[rigid scarab]

Has anyone else been noticing a cEDH pipeline

[fallow citrus]

what

[rigid scarab]

Player discovers EDH > They build a deck they think is cool > They get shunned by players for doing "unfun" stuff > They don't want to experience that again > They go to cEDH

[fallow citrus]

can't say it's something I've noticed

but maybe there's an issue with the edh community if this is consistent enough to be noticed

[twilit canyon]

its an increasing reason for cedh's growth

[rigid scarab]

It goes alongside the increasing notion of "Rule 0 talk doesn't do anything"

So these people would rather have the fast and secure Rule 0 talk of cEDH

The main reason why cEDH is growing isn't because players like playing extremely powerful decks

It's because they're sick of dealing with the inconsistency of casual

[lusty trench]

Like rule 0 is just not a thing for 99% of the community, people will say no infect no infinites whatever but it doesn't stop players from degen players from obeying the letter of the law and skirting as much nonsense as they can in

So it creates a hostile environment for people who like those mechanics and want to find a place to play it without the goal being to stomp because you're running the staple spreadsheet and they aren't

[rigid scarab]

Casual is a case of rotten apples spoiling the tree

I think 99% is a stretch but the cases where people don't follow pregame talk really stick with you

[lusty trench]

Like you can say no infinites no infect no extra turns no stax all you want

But people are still gonna groan if you pull out the KoS commander

There are always exceptions to what's talked about rule 0

And the people wanting to pub stomp will find them

[rigid scarab]

Well I don't think the solution to those players is cEDH though

Like

Infect is not viable

And if it is

Maybe not in the way those players like playing infect

[lusty trench]

That's true, but at the very least it's an environment where they can play it if they want to

[golden plover]

I mean... Rule 0 actually does not do anything

Because 99% of casual play is at an LGS

And you look like an ass if you go "hey can we all agree to ban dockside because I don't like it"

[rigid scarab]

Rule 0 talk can definitely work at an LGS if your definitions are broad

[lusty trench]

And then the pubstomper will say "this is the only deck I brought/don't have cards to put in"

[rigid scarab]

I think something as specific as banning specific cards is much

But something like

[golden plover]

A sanctioned event "allows" rule 0 talk for commander night

[rigid scarab]

"I don't like turn 3 wins"

[golden plover]

But the issue is you come off like a dick if you're going "hey can you not play that deck? I don't wanna play against infect"

[lusty trench]

Turn 4 on the upkeep of the person who went first is what you'll get

[golden plover]

Rule 0 talk is a blight on commander and card games in general ngl

If I'm playing a competitive match, I don't get to tell my opponent they can't run Azorious Control or whatever because I don't like playing against it

[lusty trench]

People can and will always skirt around rule zero as much as they physically can because they see it as a game itself

[rigid scarab]

Well commander isn't an inherently competitive format

In a social contract game, discussion about boundaries is important

Imagine if session 0 wasn't a thing in DnD

[lusty trench]

How much commander do you play if I might ask

Could just be my locals tbf

[rigid scarab]

It's just about the majority of my time on MtG

[golden plover]

Nah, at most locals I've been to, it's weird to discuss rule 0

[rigid scarab]

Rule 0 talk isn't a long dinner table discussion

Idk what you define pregame talk as but my form of it is

I pull out a deck

"Hey guys this deck has some infinites in it is that ok"

[lusty trench]

That's fair, but session zero makes more sense because when you play DND, it's likely either with a group of vetted people or with friends, and when you're at locals, and the three other people want to get a match going asap...

[rigid scarab]

"No? Ok I'll use this deck"

[golden plover]

I mean, if I'm playing with some friends and we're not playing cedh, I'll ask over beers what decks they wanna play against

[rigid scarab]

"Yeah, alright sweet"

[golden plover]

But you don't get that kind of control with 3 strangers in a pod at an LGS

[rigid scarab]

Then why do I do it all the time

[lusty trench]

Most people just want to hit the gas asap

[golden plover]

I'm sure it varies from store to store

[lusty trench]

They didn't show up to talk about what decks they had to bring with them they can't play

So they don't

[golden plover]

But I've not really had a ton of stores in my state that rule 0 has been more than "hey guys I'm playing Nylea"

[rigid scarab]

The problem with Rule 0 isn't inherent to itself, the problem is with stubborn players

[lusty trench]

That is an inherent issue with rule 0 though

[rigid scarab]

Yes, that is Rule 0 talk just as much as 10 minute discussions are

[golden plover]

Honestly, the biggest problem is rule 0 is being used as a catch-all to avoid issues

Like their official stance is "talk out any problems first"

[rigid scarab]

That I think is a problem

[lusty trench]

The fact it can be blitzed passed or ignored entirely is an inherent issue

Because it's not a rule then

[rigid scarab]

RC's interpretation of the banlist is different to how players interpet it

That is an issue

[lusty trench]

It's a suggestion

[golden plover]

But if the banlist was more intense or broken into tiers or whatever, the rule 0 would be better if it's "hey can we play my deck even tho Golos is banned"

[lusty trench]

Legit if someone looked me dead in the eyes and said they wanted to play emerakul aeons torn in their commander deck I would legit go "sure why not"

[rigid scarab]

With commander being a social contract format, players not following the social contract will always be a problem

If your goal is to get a dub, it's optimal to lie about your deck, break deals, etc

[golden plover]

I mean, it shouldn't be on the "social contract" to be able to enjoy the game

If my opponent in modern plays the one ring after I mention not liking the card, it's not breaking a "social contract"

[lusty trench]

So why are the committee putting the weight of what should be the committees decisions on a hobby known for containing volatile and anxiety having people

[rigid scarab]

You're trying to compare 2 different games here

[golden plover]

I'm not tho?

[rigid scarab]

Modern and Commander are wildly different

[golden plover]

They're both Magic

[rigid scarab]

I don't go to play Commander looking for tournament success

[golden plover]

I mean, yeah

[lusty trench]

The issue is though it's now less of a social contract game due to the fact it is the main format being pushed

[golden plover]

But rule 0 has created this idea that you should tell people off for playing stuff you don't like

[lusty trench]

People who have never played card games will play commander

[golden plover]

If my yugioh opponent plays snake eyes, I can't go "hey can you switch decks? I don't like snake eyes"

It's not your place to decide what your opponents can and can't play to that level

[lusty trench]

People will tell their friend to play commander in the majority

[golden plover]

Yeah the majority of people playing and getting into magic now is through commander

[rigid scarab]

Well if I'm not looking for tournament success and just want to have a good time

[lusty trench]

And when it is your premier format, failing to adequately balance and monitor the format is a big issue

[golden plover]

And it's teaching them bad etiquette for the card game and games in general

[lusty trench]

Then you can rule 0 what you want allowed not what you want banned

[rigid scarab]

I should have a right to tell my opponents that what they're playing could drastically reduce the amount of fun I have

If I was playing competitive that's not a problem

[lusty trench]

That's what me and pope are saying should be the case

The banlist should exist to try and create the most fun experience for the majority of players

[rigid scarab]

I mean, yes, commander being the introductory MTG format should not be a thing

It's an alt format first and foremost

[golden plover]

It's not anymore tho

[lusty trench]

And rule 0 should exist to create exceptions to that with the knowledge that altering that list could impact the fun players could have playing the game

[golden plover]

WoTC has damaged the competitive scene super hard and Commander is now the primary form of MTG

[rigid scarab]

And if I'm a player who genuinely does not enjoy stuff like non-deterministic combos, extra turns, etc

What do I do?

Stop being a sensitive snowflake and grow thicker skin?

[golden plover]

So with that being changed the way it is, commander should drop the rule 0 shit and make a tighter banlist to ensure more players have fun

[lusty trench]

Because since as you said there's not really commander tournaments that aren't cedh, how fun and fair a game is the important metric

It shouldn't have to be up to players to ensure their deck doesn't get completely blown out of the water every time they play

[rigid scarab]

If you make the banlist tighter even

[lusty trench]

Concede if you don't think it's a winnable position, stay in the game and wait for the opportunity to counterattack if not

[rigid scarab]

There will still always be that card that players hate or groan at

[lusty trench]

There is in every card game though

In every format

That's not an inherent issue of rule 0

[rigid scarab]

Yes, but I'm saying you can't ban away enough cards that everyone has fun

[lusty trench]

You also can't let your playerbase decide what is played on a game by game basis

[golden plover]

Also reminder that there are players that don enjoy big combos and extra turns.

[lusty trench]

I'm also not saying everyone

[golden plover]

Hell, I enjoy playing stax

[lusty trench]

I'm saying majority

[golden plover]

But I can't play stax in a casual setting because people will bitch and moan that stax isn't fun to play against

[lusty trench]

If you want to branch off your commander experience with your friends to something different

Go nuts

But when you show up to an lgs, the experience should be somewhat standardized

[rigid scarab]

I mean I'm seeing your point

[lusty trench]

Because otherwise it's time that adds up and a chore to the players

So no one does it

[rigid scarab]

Commander has grown so popular that Pickup EDH with strangers is becoming more common

[lusty trench]

And it's feels bad to bring it up in the first place

[rigid scarab]

And the issues you state are more common in Pickup EDH

[lusty trench]

This is what I'm saying though, since commander is now the premier format

It needs to act like it

[golden plover]

Yeah pretty much

[lusty trench]

And friend groups can create their own subdivisions

Because they're pieces of cardboard not inherently tied to a set of rules

[rigid scarab]

Would that not just be doubling down on what many players see as a problem in the game

[golden plover]

I know what my friends like playing with and against

I don't know what 3 randoms at an LGS are gonna complain about

[rigid scarab]

I mean shit Nadu is a literal clear-cut case of WOTC sabotaging competitive for commander

[lusty trench]

They're already doing it though

[golden plover]

Yeah but that's a different issue that's connected tbh

[lusty trench]

So if they're going to keep doing it

At least make the format more managed

[golden plover]

Commander has gotten so big they're already actively damaging other formats for the sake of commander

[lusty trench]

And they're going to keep doing it

Because it makes money

[golden plover]

I mean there's the classic "commander horizons" joke for every modern horizons set

[lusty trench]

And that's the only metric hasbizards cares about

[golden plover]

Iirc Hogaak was also designed to be a "cute commander" that they didn't think would be an issue in Modern

[lusty trench]

Commander players buy multiple decks, show up for new product releases, look at legendaries to build new decks around, by accessories to show off their pet deck

[golden plover]

It's also partially why they've "forced rotation" in non-rotating formats too

[rigid scarab]

I guess my next question would be

What would Pickup EDH even look like anymore

With such a theoretically expansive list

[golden plover]

If a modern player only has to buy a new playset of a card once every three months, they're not spending as much money

[rigid scarab]

If the line is "Cards players don't find fun"

Like shit the list could have 500 cards

[lusty trench]

That's the issue with a format allowing so many cards for such a long standing card game

[rigid scarab]

And I don't think the solution to any of the players who like those cards is "Go to a different format or find a curated group"

[golden plover]

Honestly for a lot of those? Get over it

Stuff like [[Alrund's Epiphany]] is fine

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/khm/41/alrunds-epiphany

Alrund's Epiphany <:mana5:292901508796645386><:manau:292901508754702338><:manau:292901508754702338>

Sorcery
Create two 1/1 blue Bird creature tokens with flying. Take an extra turn after this one. Exile Alrund's Epiphany.
Foretell (During your turn, you may pay and exile this card from your hand face down. Cast it on a later turn for its foretell cost.)

[golden plover]

Stuff like Stasis or Winter Orb would be more likely to be a hit

But you can't ban every card a player dislikes

[rigid scarab]

I don't think every Pickup EDH game should be 4 battlecruisers

[lusty trench]

But at the same time every format for every card game has that one card/group of cards people hate

[golden plover]

Yeah true

[lusty trench]

But the difference is those formats are monitored

If they're represented to much? They get hit

[golden plover]

I remember DesolatorMagic complaining that [[Hydra's Growth]] needed a ban in standard

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/thb/172/hydras-growth

Hydra's Growth <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manag:292901508654301185>

Enchantment — Aura
Enchant creature
When Hydra's Growth enters, put a +1/+1 counter on enchanted creature.
At the beginning of your upkeep, double the number of +1/+1 counters on enchanted creature.

[rigid scarab]

And I think a problem with having a list so expansive and monitored like a competitive format is that it will drive everyone to build more and more optimized lists

[golden plover]

Players are always gonna find cards to bitch about

[rigid scarab]

Which to many people goes against the whole point of EDH

[golden plover]

I mean, people are already building way more optimized lists

[rigid scarab]

Being a nice casual break from competitive

[lusty trench]

Here is the issue though

Literally just this

[golden plover]

EDH has the issue that every LGS is an arms race

The second someone starts spending a lot of money to optimize a deck, everyone else does as well

[lusty trench]

If the formats people make keep gaining popularity then they need to be standardized to fit the new majority

The original creators of edh likely never intended the format to become this popular

[rigid scarab]

And I think you underestimate just how many people build jank piles as the only decks they play

[lusty trench]

But now that it is it needs to be monitored for the health of the game

[golden plover]

It'd be different if commander wasn't the most pushed format

But commander is the way like 99% of the players interact with this game now

[lusty trench]

Exactly if it were just a format hell even 40% of the playerbase played? Go nuts do whatever

But it's Friday night magic where I live

It's the only event on but prerelease

No one is drafting cause packs are too expensive

[golden plover]

I can find pre-releases, a draft once a week, standard every other week, and modern/pioneer once a month

But you know what every card shop that I know of around here does twice a week?

Commander

[rigid scarab]

Like sure it's the most pushed format, but its players don't play it like the most pushed format

You need a different philosophy for bans in commander

[lusty trench]

The issue is the committee has no philosophy for bans

[rigid scarab]

And if you make a banlist purely on the most optimized lists

[lusty trench]

Remember when they banned leovold for being a bitch to play against?

[rigid scarab]

There's a reason why a separate cEDH banlist doesn't work

[rigid scarab]

That's an issue with RC's interpretation of the list

[lusty trench]

You can easily make the arguement if leovold is banned why isn't urza?

[rigid scarab]

I agree that the banlist should be bigger

[lusty trench]

And you can do that for the entire list

[rigid scarab]

But shouldn't try to load up a machine gun and blast hundreds of cards

[lusty trench]

Their philosophies are applied purely at random

[golden plover]

That's not even accounting for "we've had our eye on dockside/Thoracle" for a year

The last commander bans were Golos and Hullbreacher

[rigid scarab]

Like

If you're banning Thoracle

By your logic

We need to ban every single alt wincon

[golden plover]

That was 2021

[lusty trench]

No because the issue with thoracle is that the alt win con fires as soon as it comes down

No one cares about lab man

Or jace

[rigid scarab]

Because "Players don't like wins out of nowhere"

[golden plover]

We've had 3 years of quarterly banlist updates with "keeping our eye on Thoracle"

[rigid scarab]

On that note

Ban every combo enabler

[golden plover]

Thoracle is different

[rigid scarab]

Ban every card that gives poison counters

[lusty trench]

Bro please read this

[golden plover]

Thoracle wins on t2-3 on an axis you can't really interact with

[rigid scarab]

Anyone can combo out an alt wincon

[golden plover]

It's also a card that's literally never been played fairly

No one drops Thoracle and scries like 4

[lusty trench]

Yes but it doesn't fire as soon as it hits the board

[golden plover]

Thoracle always comes down very early and wins the game out of nowhere

There's no board presence or hoops to jump through

You just [[Demonic Consultation]] and you've won

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/me2/85/demonic-consultation

Demonic Consultation <:manab:292901508872273920>

Instant
Choose a card name. Exile the top six cards of your library, then reveal cards from the top of your library until you reveal a card with the chosen name. Put that card into your hand and exile all other cards revealed this way.

[lusty trench]

Like labman has to wait for his trigger

[golden plover]

Hell, in cedh you can do this t1

[twilit canyon]

it isnt exactly out of nowhere

but it isnt hard

[rigid scarab]

Yes Thoracle is currently the most egregious alt wincon card

[golden plover]

Labman and Jace have to be on the board

You can remove them when you see it coming

[lusty trench]

Even if you cast it on the player before thems turns end step

[golden plover]

Thoracle can do it from the hand

[rigid scarab]

But if you ban her with the logic of "Ban as many cards as possible players don't like"

[lusty trench]

Any murder effect removes it

And that requires set up

[rigid scarab]

You need to ban the next fastest alt wincon then

[golden plover]

You can't kill Thoracle in response either

Because 0=0 and you win

[rigid scarab]

And then the next

[golden plover]

Nah, you don't have to ban literally every card players don't like

I've been saying this

[lusty trench]

The issue isn't how fast the alt win cons are as a whole

[golden plover]

Some of this shit you just have to get over and accept

[lusty trench]

Just when one is severely out of line with the others

[golden plover]

But egregious examples like Thoracle should be dealt with

[lusty trench]

An alt win on an etb is egregiously out of line

Because the only answer for it is counterspells

[golden plover]

Sure someone might dislike [[Halo Fountain]] in their friend's Darian deck or whatever

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/snc/15/halo-fountain

Halo Fountain <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manaw:1007102126813610074>

Artifact
, , Untap a tapped creature you control: Create a 1/1 green and white Citizen creature token.
, , Untap two tapped creatures you control: Draw a card.
, , Untap fifteen tapped creatures you control: You win the game.

[golden plover]

But that's not an issue

[lusty trench]

If they get the fifteen they deserve it

[golden plover]

At some point you've just gotta accept it and move on

[lusty trench]

The fact that oracles conditions can just be met by extremely low set up requirements is insane

[golden plover]

But when a card is an egregious example, it should be banned

[lusty trench]

And then it also can't be removed easily

[golden plover]

The issue is that the RC doesn't distinguish either and their response is "Rule 0 both out"

[rigid scarab]

Like I should say I'm super down for a thoracle ban

[golden plover]

The RC has decided for the past 3 years that there's no reason to ban anything because "players will self police"

[rigid scarab]

But that's regardless of whether or not you want RC to look at the banlist through the same lens as a competitive format

[lusty trench]

They don't look at it through any lens though

[golden plover]

I remember them saying that about dockside and mana crypt too

[lusty trench]

That would imply they do something

They had a philosophy

They never applied it consistently

[golden plover]

"Sure one player is obscenely ahead in mana but these are expensive cards, they'll self police"

[lusty trench]

And now they do nothing

[golden plover]

If Sol Ring wasn't in literally every precon and was $100+ they'd say the same thing instead of (rightfully) banning it

[rigid scarab]

Yes and I agree that that's a problem

Again I'm not saying they shouldn't ban cards anymore

[lusty trench]

I think we just have a fundamental disagreement on what we want out of the format

Which is fine

And I respect that

[rigid scarab]

👍

[lusty trench]

I was just thinking we should end it here because not much progress is being made either side and it's mainly just a subjective opinion on a non matter of fact topic

[rigid scarab]

Yeah that's fine

[glad peak]

I’m here to play magic, not draw up legislation

But the main thing is that what I’ve noticed is that the more restrictions you put on people the more ways you can’t interact with some degenerate stuff or they find other ways to do it

Most likely just my lgs though since even the owners there skirted their own“no infinite rule” with thoracle consult

Also the natural course of things is that the more people play the more optimized they’ll make their decks, the obvious ending point being cedh

[golden plover]

https://preview.redd.it/pnzhasc8fepd1.jpeg?width=1614&format=pjpg&auto=webp&s=3674e55b3bddebeb82ee30e08516bd1978d7c1d9

Chucky SL

I'm half thinking this set got changed the way it did so that it could get all these 80s horror movie SLs

Also, this SL doesn't even break $10

[trail anvil]

I still want to throw my 2 cents in here tbh

if your LGS is competitive, you'll get people trying to push the boundaries, it's just natural. if those players don't end up on the cedh side, they'll end up on high powered casual and I'm sure you can eventually adapt your deck to that

my LGS personally seems to hover around the "upgraded precon" to "optimized funny stuff" side, and I think we've reached a good balance

[rigid scarab]

There's a difference between high power and cedh though

Cedh has a specific metagame in mind

[glad peak]

Big thing here is that any high power deck is now then called cedh locally and the more internet access people have, the more they’ll gravitate towards that specific metagame even if they don’t want to

[trail anvil]

can't is more annoying to people than can

[rigid scarab]

That's a wordplay problem though?

That's just people not knowing what cedh is

[glad peak]

It’s a people problem

[trail anvil]

leovold to my knowledge is the most annoying floodgate in the command zone due to restricting drawing, which everyone likes to do. agustin is another candidate but at least he still lets you draw the cards

[glad peak]

People are likely to go about it that way because that’s just what people do

[rigid scarab]

EDH's history has shown that people going to cedh isn't a natural gravitation

People cut strong cards from their decks all the time

[golden plover]

It kinda has been tho with internet resources getting better

Internet resources getting better has made most card games get stronger formats over time

[rigid scarab]

That's assuming that people have an active desire to go to cedh

[trail anvil]

my personal path was getting tired of people complaining about cedh > trying cedh > realizing I don't have the brain for cedh because each action has a ton of weight but I have to track 3 different players

[golden plover]

People have a desire to win

[glad peak]

You say edh has shown people don’t naturally go to cedh but cedh has been getting bigger and there’s the cedh pipeline you just talked about

[trail anvil]

I mean isn't cedh gonna get bigger as edh gets bigger naturally

[rigid scarab]

cedh getting bigger isn't out of people wanting powerful decks

[golden plover]

And when people are playing better decks to win, you have to keep up

[glad peak]

A lot of people don’t have the brain for a lot of things but people do it regardless

[rigid scarab]

It's out of people not wanting to deal with tiresome pubstomping and rule 0 talk

[rigid scarab]

I think you kind of overestimate how much people will do to win though

I've seen so many people actively throw games just because they're bored

[trail anvil]

yeah but instantly losing the game rather than steadily losing the game as they mis-evaluate a situation seems more punishing on the surface lol

[rigid scarab]

Or take an unnecisarily risky option to spice things up

[glad peak]

True but the trick is most people won’t know they misevaluated something and their opponents may or may not know

[rigid scarab]

There are people who prioritise winning and people who don't

There's a clear distinction

[trail anvil]

I think I figure it out when I demonic tutor for the wrong option or just don't go for lethal when I could've

[trail anvil]

tbh I don't actually like winning as much, I just want to have a fun time

I make an attempt at winning because the game isn't fun if you don't, but I'd rather everyone at the table have fun too. the whole reason I liked group hug is because one player would fall behind at the table either due to a power discrepancy or bad draw, then I'd try to get them participating again

[glad peak]

If you have the brain to play group hug in a fun way then you the brain to play cedh

[rigid scarab]

But I don't think cedh is the ultimate form of edh

[trail anvil]

I think the stakes are way lower when you're giving the precon extra draws lol

[sudden lava]

The chucky and Tiffany arent even artifacts

really

[golden plover]

I mean there's not that many legendary artifact creatures that'd fit chucky

[lusty trench]

Stuffy doll not being here is a choice

[golden plover]

True

I think they wanted to avoid the [[Ash Williams]] situation again

[lost widget]

No card found for “Ash Williams”

[golden plover]

[[Puresteel Paladin | SLD]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/sld/1352/puresteel-paladin

Puresteel Paladin <:manaw:1007102126813610074><:manaw:1007102126813610074>

Creature — Human Knight
Whenever an Equipment you control enters, you may draw a card.
Metalcraft — Equipment you control have equip as long as you control three or more artifacts.
The only way to stop those possessed by the spirits of the book is through the act of bodily dismemberment.
2/2

[lusty trench]

Oh you mean named character on a non legendary?

[golden plover]

Yeah

[lusty trench]

Could easily just have it be a generic play fun doll

[golden plover]

True

I vastly prefer when these SLs are reskins

[lusty trench]

As an aside about the miku lairs… I’m kinda of shocked at how low quality at least half the cards are

[trail anvil]

the art?

[lusty trench]

Yeah

[golden plover]

But reskins can't perfectly capture a UB character

And yeah, the Miku art sucks

[lusty trench]

Like these had to go through two teams to ensure they fit the quality standards of both

[golden plover]

But it's BECAUSE THEY KEEP NOT USING ANIME ARTISTS

[lusty trench]

And they both said yes?

[golden plover]

Like Jesper Esling is a great artist

But he cannot do Miku

[trail anvil]

which is genuinely wild considering how many anime artists they've used in other places

[golden plover]

I'm also just kinda baffled at the card choices

Like Elspeth Tirrel? Really?

Worst Jace over a Kaito?

[trail anvil]

they kinda had a whole WAR alt art set done by Japanese artists

[lusty trench]

I think they didn’t want the name clash for kaito

[golden plover]

Why are they all mono-colored except for The Royal Scions

[trail anvil]

uno's already pointed out that they probably didn't want to do a kaito for kaito

[golden plover]

Yeah true

[lusty trench]

Tbf royal scions was the only walker choice for the twins

[golden plover]

Stiill could've picked a different Jace

[lusty trench]

Unless they did the battlebond partner planeswalker

[golden plover]

I mean, they could have given both twins a card and stuck with mono-colors

[lusty trench]

Nah people would’ve labeled it a flavour fail

[golden plover]

Miku is represented on 3 cards with Kaito and the twins in the other two

[golden plover]

Nah I specifically mean one twin on will and the other on Rowan

Can leave Freyalise and Liliana in the set

Swap Elspeth Tirrel for Knight-Errant if we've gotta have a shitty Elspeth

[lusty trench]

Iirc one of the twins is money from the battlebond partner planeswalker

Not a huge amount

[golden plover]

They're both sub $1

[lusty trench]

Oh okay lmao

[golden plover]

Bad Jace is like $3

But it could have at least been Cunning Castaway

He's like $2

But he's one of the few Jaces without a reprint

[lusty trench]

I feel like for the winter one they’re going to go hard

Winter miku is a huge seller for sega

[glad peak]

Inb4 it’s a super limited drop that’s bought up by internals before the scraps are dropped officially

[trail anvil]

https://www.reddit.com/r/BadMtgCombos/comments/1feps3y/deal_infinite_damage_for_4gru_as_long_as_the_twin/ was this posted here before?

[zinc shard]

Step 1: Make infinite mana

Off to a great start

[glad peak]

maybe we'll finally solve the twin prime conjecture and magic will have a permanent place in theoretical mathematics (except for the time goodle made a deck of custom magic cards to explain math as an entirety)

welp my staunchly anti-blue friend (to the point where whenever there's any blue at the table no matter if there's any interaction he goes on a tyrade about how blue is dishonorable) is bringing up how tyrranids shouldn't be blue again because he plays it in warhammer

[trail anvil]

genuine skill issue

[glad peak]

yep

green white is his favorite combination and he keeps going on about how tyrannids should be naya

[sudden lava]

went over the endless punishment list, and yeah there isnt a whole lot of tokens here besides the devils and the random 1 of soldier that gets made off bastion of remembrance

and scarecrows off of the schemes

[zinc shard]

Koma SL card has a typo

Should say "Each Upkeep", not "Your Upkeep"

Trying to find the announcement for this SL

[sudden lava]

rainbow snek

[golden plover]

It's just an alchemy nerf, ez

[rigid scarab]

Jund Sacrifice in explorer

What are our thoughts

Oh boy

[golden plover]

Solid deck

[rigid scarab]

Mono red bots

Did not miss these

[golden plover]

Ygra combo is a great way to close games

[rigid scarab]

Man

I love playing against ignorant monored

And I cant do anything about it because I got flooded

Does jund sac play gilded goose

[copper pecan]

i remember back when i played standard i ran [[revenge of ravens]] specifically because monored bots would always attack into it

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/eld/104/revenge-of-ravens

Revenge of Ravens <:mana3:292901508771610624><:manab:292901508872273920>

Enchantment
Whenever a creature attacks you or a planeswalker you control, that creature's controller loses 1 life and you gain 1 life.
Syr Tasdale declared that he never wanted to see the witch Ygretta again. Her familiars quickly granted his request.

[rigid scarab]

I wish like

A cracked player could watch a screenshare of me and tell me what I'm doing wrong

Or if I'm just not grinding

[twilit canyon]

post your list

[rigid scarab]

Oh right you made a million coobillion dollars off arena

[golden plover]

Some jund lists do play goose

But not all of them

Imo ramp isn't important

And fable does the job there

[twilit canyon]

agreed

i dont think u need goos

[rigid scarab]

I understand I need to pour more wildcards into landbase

[twilit canyon]

yeah

mana base needs upgrades

not too many more but yeah

[rigid scarab]

Do I need more black or green lands

[twilit canyon]

24 lands is a lil bit much

since ygra is your only green card, you only need 6 green sources

not counting 4 of fable

[rigid scarab]

I have 10 rare wildcards

Spoonfeed me what lands I need

[twilit canyon]

hmm from what you have

lets finish the green sources

go to 4 overgrown tomb

-4 swamps for it

3 more blackcleave cliffs in place of 3 mountains

cut 2 mountains actually

if u dont have 4th fable

u have the 4th fable

and the last few wcs on [[scavenger's talent]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/blb/111/scavengers-talent

Scavenger's Talent <:manab:292901508872273920>

Enchantment — Class
(Gain the next level as a sorcery to add its ability.)
Whenever one or more creatures you control die, create a Food token. This ability triggers only once each turn.
: Level 2
Whenever you sacrifice a permanent, target player mills two cards.
: Level 3
At the beginning of your end step, you may sacrifice three other nonland permanents. If you do, return a creature card from your graveyard to the battlefield with a finality counter on it.

[twilit canyon]

you only really need 2-3 of this

[rigid scarab]

2 or 3 blackcleave>

?

[twilit canyon]

4

3 can be fine

[rigid scarab]

And uh

What to cut for the scavengers

23 lands rn

And I plugged in the 4th fable

Do I pick between synthesizer and witness

[twilit canyon]

go down to 22

witness is good actually

[golden plover]

What is synthesizer doing for you here

[twilit canyon]

cut the synths

witness sees more cards with less investment

[[bitter triumph]] is also a good card. 1-2 copies can make its way into your list

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/lci/91/bitter-triumph

Bitter Triumph <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manab:292901508872273920>

Instant
As an additional cost to cast this spell, discard a card or pay 3 life.
Destroy target creature or planeswalker.
Though he wept at Inti's death, Caparocti's eyes were keen, and his spear pierced cleanly through Clavileño's tainted heart.

[rigid scarab]

I misclicked and accidentally made 4 scavenger's

Wuh oh!

[rigid scarab]

Got it

[twilit canyon]

ah well

u have a spare scavenger

[rigid scarab]

I'll cut a CTF for the second triumph

Or maybe a Push?

[twilit canyon]

cut one claim

claim has dead targets this format

quite a few actually

phoenix is notable

but a fair bit of mono-green is also too big for it

[rigid scarab]

Thanks for the help

Wait I forgot to put in the bitter triumphs

[twilit canyon]

cut 2 lands

+1 triumph

+1 harvester

should do the trick

cut

a spring

[rigid scarab]

Wait no

[twilit canyon]

sulf spring

[rigid scarab]

The bitter triumph is

All the way above the deadly dispute

????

[golden plover]

I mean 4 scavenger doesn't hurt

[twilit canyon]

and cragcrown

[golden plover]

If you don't have better things it's fine

[twilit canyon]

oh i see it

[rigid scarab]

Wait I didn't forget to add them at all

[twilit canyon]

lol

4th harvester still is good

[golden plover]

And ngl, I don't love maining multiple claims rn

[rigid scarab]

MTGA was just being a silly willy

[golden plover]

There's a lot of stuff that dodges claim the firstborn

[rigid scarab]

I mean I'd like more wildcards for the prospect of building other decks

[golden plover]

And you're probably siding it out based on the matchup

[rigid scarab]

Boros Convoke is one

But ik for f2p that's a bit of an ask

[golden plover]

I also like 3 Ygra, but that's personal preference

Ygra wins you the game

[twilit canyon]

phoenix is relatively light on rares

would consider if u want a 2nd deck

go there

that being siad

*said

deck is gross

i think its by far and away the best deck in the format

and

it may not be long for this world without more hits

[rigid scarab]

I mean Ive been on this acc for years

So I have others

But

I just realised all of them have red in it

Im no better

[twilit canyon]

lol

nothing wrong with red

[golden plover]

I've been testing Phoenix a bit rn, and it's strong but it has easy counters

Unfortunately those are the same counters that hit us in Jund for the most part

Really comes down to how the format is gonna shape up from the bans

[twilit canyon]

and those counters dont affect phoenix as bad

aka they really play much better through hate

[golden plover]

But I also wouldn't be surprised if devotion shoots up in play in the near future

[twilit canyon]

im honestly shocked wotc hasnt addressed phoenix

[golden plover]

I'm not on devotion rn, but low-key I think it's the deck to beat

Ideally next banlist hits cruise and Nykthos

[twilit canyon]

meta trends still puts phoenix above anything

rakdos aggro preys on nykthos well

[golden plover]

I mean, phoenix is definitely currently deck to beat

But I would wager Devotion is gonna stay strong and shoot up in play

The new techs the deck gets are also very good

I don't realistically expect Duskmorn to change much

That ensoul build and bauble tempo get some new cards

But I think the format will probably not change a ton

Although I'm still expecting [[Screaming Nemesis]] to be a sideboard staple

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/dsk/157/screaming-nemesis

Screaming Nemesis <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manar:292901508796645397>

Creature — Spirit
Haste
Whenever Screaming Nemesis is dealt damage, it deals that much damage to any other target. If a player is dealt damage this way, they can't gain life for the rest of the game.
She sees the faces of those who wronged her in everyone she encounters.
3/3

[twilit canyon]

meh

mehhh

its so mid

in so many spots

[twilit canyon]

eventually yeah

overlord can do a ton

[golden plover]

I mean, the better lifegain gets in a format the better nemesis is

But the floor is 3/3 haste unblockable for 3

[twilit canyon]

and thats unplayable

[golden plover]

I mean, stuff like Rakdos Aggro is running worse in the main

[twilit canyon]

but nothing at 3 mana

thats the point

they are super lean and efficient

[golden plover]

I wouldn't be surprised to see them siding it against specific MUs

Jund possibly too

[twilit canyon]

but i dont see what match ups that'd do

because like

if you side in vs the sellsword combo

[golden plover]

But ngl, nemesis is better in stuff like modern/timeless

[twilit canyon]

you get wrecked by leyline

of sanctity

[golden plover]

There's more lifegain there

[twilit canyon]

this doesnt help

[golden plover]

Only place nemesis is a blowout rn in pioneer is against waste not

[twilit canyon]

nemesis wont play in modern

modern removal is too good and life gain is not a big focus on the format at all

[golden plover]

But in modern, its a big hit to control decks on ring

[twilit canyon]

its a hit to phlage

you still die to phlage in 2

but you stopped them from gaining life

[golden plover]

Yeah hits Jeskai and shelly

[twilit canyon]

yippee

shelly isnt seeing much if any play

[golden plover]

They play Shelly ring, you ping nemesis with your Bowmasters and they can't Shelly ring for the rest of the game

[twilit canyon]

why ping nemesis with obm

[golden plover]

It's also a big hit to the energy decks incrimental lifegain

[twilit canyon]

yea but you arent dying to that

[golden plover]

Pinging Nemesis is the same as going face, it just turns off their lifegain

[twilit canyon]

ping your own nemesis isnt good

[golden plover]

Nemesis redirects the 1 to them

[twilit canyon]

obm isnt good in modern rn either

[golden plover]

I mean, if you've got something like OBM or Galvanic and you need to turn off their lifegain, pinging Nemesis sends the damage to the same place

[twilit canyon]

thats 8 unplayables

[golden plover]

I think it's better in formats with energy decks tho

Card turns off their ocelot prides for the rest of the game

[twilit canyon]

shutting off life gain is the incorrect avenue vs energy

[golden plover]

And phlages

[twilit canyon]

they dont care about htat

*that

phlage still works

[golden plover]

I mean, it's not the only thing you're doing

[twilit canyon]

the reason phlage is good is bc it deals 18 damage across 2 turns

[golden plover]

It's just another tool to hit energy decks

[twilit canyon]

yea but its not a relevant hit

and at 3 mana if thats your play u may as well concede

[golden plover]

I guess we'll see, but I think it's a decent card

[twilit canyon]

i think its a trap

its a card that ppl will easily gas up

play it

[golden plover]

The only other Duskmorn card that stood out as something I can see eternal formats playing is [[Unidentified Hovership]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/dsk/37/unidentified-hovership

Unidentified Hovership <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manaw:1007102126813610074><:manaw:1007102126813610074>

Artifact — Vehicle
Flying
When Unidentified Hovership enters, exile up to one target creature with toughness 5 or less.
When Unidentified Hovership leaves the battlefield, the exiled card's owner manifests dread.
Crew 1
2/2

[twilit canyon]

and realize the flaws are too big to actually be good

i think the overlords are going to see play

[golden plover]

Hovership is a Skyclave Apparition that's harder to remove

And it hits more creatures

[twilit canyon]

hovership is super good

i think the haste scarecrow with delirium is going to be good somewhere

4/3 trample haste for 2 with delirium and helps enable it

has to be good somewhere

[golden plover]

Honestly I can't see the blue or white overlords seeing play

[twilit canyon]

blue no

[golden plover]

Black is a solid maybe

[twilit canyon]

white is [[grave titan]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/mkc/129/grave-titan

Grave Titan <:mana4:292901508712890379><:manab:292901508872273920><:manab:292901508872273920>

Creature — Giant
Deathtouch
Whenever Grave Titan enters or attacks, create two 2/2 black Zombie creature tokens.
Death in form and function.
6/6

[golden plover]

I think the green one is very good

[twilit canyon]

sorry

its better grave titan

[golden plover]

And I think the red one is... Fine?

[twilit canyon]

the creatures are better on it

red one is going to be solid

better inferno titan

[golden plover]

Red one might see some pioneer play as a topend since there's no Phlage

[twilit canyon]

mhm

just what i was thinking

[golden plover]

But it's a very expensive card to justify in most red decks

[twilit canyon]

theres bound to be a deck that top ends on it

the big thing of the overlords is that they enable devotion

[golden plover]

Either it comes down too late or you're taking a turn or two off

[twilit canyon]

and remain in play

so like

[golden plover]

Yeah, I think that's a big advantage to the green one

[twilit canyon]

they are going to enable some funky stuff

[golden plover]

Green one is also fixing for the times you don't have Leyline out

[twilit canyon]

t0 leyline guildpact -> t1 llanowar -t2 overlord

thats massive

thats so much mana and a threat on board

[golden plover]

If you don't don't have Leyline you can t2 overlord and still t3 norn

[twilit canyon]

for sure

and overlord + leyline means u can honestly consider playing binding

[golden plover]

I'm not sure how many devotion plays

But I think devotion runs at least 1

[twilit canyon]

the land it makes is all basic land types enabling domain all by itself

nah its a 4 of

if u fair cast it, it also triggers kiora and outcaster

[golden plover]

Only issue is deck space is tight

White is like a commander card

[twilit canyon]

kicks poly k

and honestly

invasions

[golden plover]

Only because I can't see where it'd be decent rn

[twilit canyon]

some number

i'd much rather be on maindeck 4 of overlord

and maybe 2 copies of poly k or 2 invasions

[golden plover]

Black is good, but I dunno where it sees play either

Biggest standouts are red and green tbh

But outside of these 4ish cards, I feel like Duskmorn is missing a lot power level wise

I expect Kona show and tell to be cute in standard

But I'm not sure it's the best way to get to a t3 atraxa

[twilit canyon]

black is something ren and i are gonna test in modern

[golden plover]

Depends on what vehicles we see too ngl

[twilit canyon]

nah the power of the cards is actually high

the problem is the impact

what do they replace?

what will actually stick?

is it actually worth playing some of these?

[golden plover]

There's a lot of strong cards, but I dunno where they have homes

[twilit canyon]

mhm

100% convinced white and green overlords will see play

[golden plover]

I think Ghost Trap is worth trying as a hearse side grade in some sides

[twilit canyon]

red and black too

blue nah

hovership is decent

various delirium cards will be good

[[enduring innocence]] is a house btw

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/dsk/6/enduring-innocence

Enduring Innocence <:mana1:292901508373282827><:manaw:1007102126813610074><:manaw:1007102126813610074>

Enchantment Creature — Sheep Glimmer
Lifelink
Whenever one or more other creatures you control with power 2 or less enter, draw a card. This ability triggers only once each turn.
When Enduring Innocence dies, if it was a creature, return it to the battlefield under its owner's control. It's an enchantment. (It's not a creature.)
2/1

[twilit canyon]

i wouldnt be surprised if this card becomes a big player somewhere bc of how annoyingly sticky it is

[[toby, beastie befriender]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/dsk/35/toby-beastie-befriender

Toby, Beastie Befriender <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manaw:1007102126813610074>

Legendary Creature — Human Wizard
When Toby, Beastie Befriender enters, create a 4/4 white Beast creature token with "This creature can't attack or block alone."
As long as you control four or more creature tokens, creature tokens you control have flying.
"Sure, I'm pretty small, but Gribble isn't, so I don't get scared."
1/1

[twilit canyon]

this card

is [[blade splicer]]

[lost widget]

https://scryfall.com/card/moc/175/blade-splicer

Blade Splicer <:mana2:292901509060886528><:manaw:1007102126813610074>

Creature — Phyrexian Human Artificer
When Blade Splicer enters, create a 3/3 colorless Phyrexian Golem artifact creature token.
Golems you control have first strike.
"Flesh is a betrayal of the self."
1/1

[twilit canyon]

but its a bigger token

[golden plover]

[[Reluctant Role Model]] is very solid