But not sets that are fucked
#Magic the Gathering
rigid scarab
golden plover
Of the big three
rigid scarab
Except GFTP
golden plover
Obviously stuff like FaB is worse managed than magic, and stuff like shadowverse is better
But Magic is by far the worst ran of the three
rich bronze
Agreed
The only reason magic is still around despite everything is that it’s a good game
golden plover
Yeah that's it's biggest upside
rigid scarab
But Magic is by far the worst ran of the three
This can partly be due to Magic being the most scrutinzed imo
copper pecan
yugioh is the only one i can think of where they don't credit artists
golden plover
If it wasn't as good of a game this management style would have killed it
rich bronze
yugioh is the only one i can think of where they don't credit artists
Iirc the pay is good tho
rigid scarab
yugioh is the only one i can think of where they don't credit artists
This is true
rich bronze
Not sure how it compares to magic
rigid scarab
They probably should be doing that
copper pecan
Iirc the pay is good tho
it's not
rich bronze
Magic is good with crediting but the pay is mediocre last I heard - a good chunk of the profits come from artist proof cards
golden plover
Iirc pokemon pays the best outright but magic has the best opportunities if you're established
Iirc it's only something like $1k-$5k per artwork
But you can do proofs, mats, etc
rigid scarab
Pokemon is lucky it has good management and IP recognition despite being a shit game 
rich bronze
The only company I’ve heard that really pays ALL its artists well is valve
Generally well into the 6 digits
rich bronze
yeah but then you have to work for blizzard
rigid scarab
I mean if you're an artist for a TCG
golden plover
Hearthstone cuts freelancers really good deals
rigid scarab
You're always fucked
golden plover
The issue is it's also hearthstone
rich bronze
Honestly I wouldn’t work for any of these companies but if I had to pick
Probably wotc
tbh
golden plover
I'm curious how riot pays for their tcg
We don't know how much you're paid for LoR art
rigid scarab
MTG - WOTC
Yugioh - Konami
Pokemon - TPC
Vanguard - Bushiroad
Hearthstone - Blizzard
LoR - Riot
There is no correct answer
Only incorrect answers
golden plover
I mean riot at least mostly treats their staff pretty well?
rich bronze
TPC Riot and Wotc probably okay
glad peak
Tbf LoR is also much less big than the other games we’re talking about
rich bronze
With riot on top
golden plover
They obviously have a lot of issues at the end of the day, but riot isn't terrible
rich bronze
LoR is also a bad game
rigid scarab
TPC Riot and Wotc probably okay
Nah
rich bronze
I legitimately think that the only good AND relevant tcgs are ygo and mtg
rigid scarab
Being a game dev for TPC has to suck complete balls
golden plover
LoR has some really good formats and probably has the most player friendly model
glad peak
The best is cygames and shadowverse 
golden plover
But player friendly doesn't make enough money
rigid scarab
The best is cygames and shadowverse <:nyaruhodo:873056991973634078>
Shadowverse Evolve is a Bushiroad game kid
glad peak
Didn’t say anything about the card game being good kid
My favorite shadowverse character is Ryu from streets
rigid scarab
I forgot what Digimon was managed by
glad peak
^this collab was weird
golden plover
Theoretically your best bet is one of the smaller tcgs
But it's HARD to break through as a TCG now
rigid scarab
But then you don't get enough pay
golden plover
Especially if you're not an established franchise
rigid scarab
But it's HARD to break through as a TCG now
Just live in Japan
Problem solved
But then you have to be a person with a job in Japan
golden plover
Even there it's tough as hell
rigid scarab
God why can you never win
glad peak
Battle spirits saga is legitimately good but damn is it small
Same for shadowverse evolve
golden plover
Because companies want money and tcgs are a niche hobby
You've gotta both provide money and be able to grow crazily
glad peak
Flesh and Blood played it smart tbh and battle spirits saga was a bit too late with that strat
golden plover
It's why magic has become what it is
Crossovers, crazy limited runs, serialized cards, etc
rich bronze
Crossovers, crazy limited runs, serialized cards, etc
Tbh I’m fine with all of these as long as it doesn’t affect competitive formats
The collectors are an important part too tbh
LOTR shouldn’t have been modern legal
golden plover
Yeah true
I've come around a bit on ub and serialized cards
Wish they didn't put unique art on the serialized ones tho
And I do still feel like UB should have been "excluded by default and you can choose to opt in" instead of "you've gotta ask to opt out and if you do, you're a dick"
rich bronze
Wish they didn't put unique art on the serialized ones tho
Honestly I think collector boosters are a very good thing and anything that gets whales to open more I’m all for
Simple reason
The cheapest version of any card
Will drop in value
Since people will mass open bling rares and mythics
gone are the days of $200 JTMC and $300 goyf
golden plover
Yeah collectors boosters were good
But stuff like the serialized Praetor arts should have just been a regular alt art
And have a serialized version with that art
Like this art is so good
Sucks it's only on 500 copies of the card
golden plover
All the Praetors got one
Sucks they're only on the serialized versions
Norn's is really good too
copper pecan
oh finally now i don't have to hear people complain about them not doing this anymore
glad peak
Oh sweet ravnica remastered is gonna be fun
twilit canyon
oh cool
copper pecan
twilit canyon
krenko, massacre girl, aurelia, judith?
hidden ermine
Oh its the Wild West plane
Except it looks to be much more magic-heavy than expected
copper pecan
twilit canyon
twilit canyon
https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1687907284851019776?s=20
fucking oko
golden plover
God damn MH3...
copper pecan
golden plover
Wait how do you do a murder mystery on Ravnica? You can just get the ghost of the victim to tell you who killed them
copper pecan
hidden ermine
Oh Bloombarrow is kinda cool
hidden ermine
https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1687909506267639808?s=20
Wait
Isnt that the "somebodys watching me" guy
Or like, based on him
twilit canyon
maybe?
hidden ermine
https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1687910095571628032?s=20
Oh were going full high-tech lmao
Anyway I think half of these concepts are pretty strong
glad peak
Duskmourn is hella cool
twilit canyon
i think magic can enter a high-tech age if omenpaths allow more interconnected worlds a bit
golden plover
I'm honestly not too fond of going full sci-fi tho
twilit canyon
esper scientists sharing tech with ravnican simic biotechs
golden plover
Like stuff like Kaladesh and Kamigawa were okay
glad peak
Kamigawa existing and connecting with the omenpath is gonna lead to all that
golden plover
But full sci-fi feels... Wrong?
twilit canyon
oh ofc then kamigawa and kaladesh
hidden ermine
I mean I like high-tech
But it does feel like magic is going away from its relative cohesion between planes
glad peak
Alongside all the other places with people who are really good at tech
twilit canyon
kamigawa is already pretty high-tech
hidden ermine
And more towards a YGO style of "anything goes"
glad peak
Definitely phyrexia
hidden ermine
Was Final Fantasy UB already confirmed?
golden plover
Yeah it's definitely moving away from "MTG take on a fantasy concept" to "fuck it, whatever now"
hidden ermine
Also AC is getting a full booster set
twilit canyon
i still have 0 idea how thats gonna work
hidden ermine
Which ironically means that MTG would get real people for the first time since like the 90s iirc
golden plover
Why?
copper pecan
golden plover
Yeah, I'm not looking forward to that one
copper pecan
space plane
golden plover
Damn, were really moving away from magic concepts
copper pecan
glad peak
The space plane has potential
It’s just like how people hated that kamigawa was gonna have tech
modern minnow
lorwynheads wya
hidden ermine
Oh I like the spaceplane
The half-planet lands (?) look sick as hell
I mean I dont think its a bad thing that magic is going away from its cohesion
twilit canyon
could be a way to print more space lands
hidden ermine
I just think its odd
twilit canyon
i need more space lands for my collection
hidden ermine
I mean
I always liked that YGO had more diversity in what cards can be or depict or be set in
sleek ferry
See, I think there’s bias here because almost every single core set in Yugioh is a bad product
hidden ermine
So I wont mind magic doing the same
And its not like the magic artstyle™️ doesnt work with scifi
sleek ferry
All the good ygo products are usually reprint sets/tins
sleek ferry
But like if we compare standard sets to ygo core sets? Wotc blows konami out the water
twilit canyon
their balance is another thing but we can always be sure that they have insanely good art, that is cohesive and thematic while still feeling magic
sleek ferry
In more ways than one
Yugioh still has an outdated box format of 2 secrets 4 ultras which feels TERRIBLE to open
And usually only 1-2 cards hold some value for a 6-8 month cycle until it gets reprinted
stark skiff
Lmao my friend is gonna be hella excited for that Fallout collab
twilit canyon
id rather fallout be the set over assassin's creed
so it kills my excitement a bir
*bit
sleek ferry
Also the UB’s are inconsequential tbh. People love bitching about them, but if you don’t like them, don’t buy them
Lotr is the only one you felt like you had to buy because it’s modern legal
Everything else is stuck to commander products
hidden ermine
Like my only real complaint about magic is that I do wish there was more variety in artstyles
But I guess thats brand recognition at this point
And you dont wanna blow that
(Outside of Secret Lairs)
sleek ferry
What do you mean? We have so many artists with their own unique styles
sleek ferry
Also the styles vary greatly depending on the plane that we are in
hidden ermine
Yesn't
They're all in a relatively similar like
Area of artstyles I guess?
Like there is nothing like Floo for instance
twilit canyon
ah as a main set
anime art styles has been a thing i guess. + secret lair + collectors edition arts and such
glad peak
Apparently assassin’s creed is going to be modern legal?
sleek ferry
Yeah but like you could say the same for ygo. Everything is just anime. I made the joke the other day, that every female ygo card has the same exact face
And it’s true
But that’s because of the anime art style
glad peak
I hope duskmourn draft is going to be good
sleek ferry
Also, my wallet is not ready for MH3
hidden ermine
anime art styles has been a thing i guess. + secret lair + collectors edition ar...
Ye Secret Lairs go wild
But main sets are all fairly consistent in artstyles
Not even just anime artstyles, even stuff like western comic styles arent really done
Its more in the realm of, for lack of a better phrase, professional fantasy illustration
twilit canyon
not a lot
a ton of main set alt art styles are in weird styles
like ikoria's comic book style
or kamigawa's anime alt styles
innistrads horror comic style
phyrexia had a junji ito style horror art
twilit canyon
nothing super out there often. ok kinda out there for some. but its usually very different from mtg
sleek ferry
Alt arts is where we get all the cool shit, like the phyrexian black and white splash arts
Mystical archives traditional jp arts
golden plover
This is the second year we've had a Magic set come out a year after a hearthstone set with the same theme btw
Strixhaven and Scholomancy and Ravnica Murder Mystery and the Hearthstone one
hidden ermine
I mena
"Murder mystery set" is really not that specific of a thing that you can base it on HS doing it tbh
golden plover
Yeah true. But it's just funny it's happened twice now
For some reason [[Arden Angel]] is now legal in eternal formats btw?
lost widgetBOT
golden plover
They changed it to roll a d4
And it's getting a print in an upcoming SL
But it's legal now?
Wait... How's the fallout set gonna handle guns?
golden plover
They still avoid outright guns
SNC was the closest and they were blasters and stuff
sleek ferry
[[backup agent]]
lost widgetBOT
twilit canyon
space marines
sleek ferry
[[family’s favor]]
lost widgetBOT
golden plover
space marines
Oh right. Those don't really count, but yeah, they do have guns
Oh Lmao so remember when they said the transformers cards were a mistake?
Well apparently not enough
fallow citrus
oh cool mh3
golden plover
Because they're doing it again with Jurassic park in ixalan
"woops this method was a bad idea in BRO but time to double down'
twilit canyon
mh3 is coming to arena 
rigid scarab
They got the GOAT franchise
You did not say Jurrassic Park is a goat franchise
Literally has 3 different flavours of below mid
trail anvil
https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1687907732467089408?s=20
that hydra tamer is my favorite, she looks so badass
golden plover
So apparently the AC set is non-draftable boosters
New set line called "boosters beyond"
twilit canyon
oh shit i didnt realize. khans is not a remaster
its just adding the entire khans block to arena
fetchlands historic?
golden plover
I imagine they'd probably ban them on sight outside of draft
They've mentioned the fetches being one of the biggest design mistakes in the game's history
And likely won't include them in any formats they weren't already in
twilit canyon
also confirmed: pioneer will be on arena late 2024
not all of it but most relevant pioneer cards
trail anvil
fetchlands historic? <:pogofgreed:562491300432314369>
tfw DRS about to get banned 
trail anvil
not all of it but most relevant pioneer cards
thank fuck
twilit canyon
tfw DRS about to get banned <:LUL:649475862823043082>
potentially yeah
also with the addition of fetches and mh3
i think modern is not super distant on arena
which will mean that pioneer will be unplayable in a new way that was unknown to it before
imagine picking pioneer when modern and historic are available
trail anvil
I'm coping hoping that pioneer playrate will be boosted with it on arena and the format will get done actual attention
trail anvil
well either way time to see what all the fuss is about if and when we get it
twilit canyon
they would be way more accessible
golden plover
I dunno. I think pioneer has a lot of charm and is better than people give it credit for
twilit canyon
there'd be 0 reason to play pioneer
trail anvil
is monke still unbanned in modern?
golden plover
Sure, they need to fucking ban Karn, but other than that, it's p good
twilit canyon
yes
im actually super excited to see how ridiculous historic gets with modern cards
itd be the stronger format
trail anvil
how close are we to that one fun izzet deck in historic
sleek ferry
Pioneer/explorer is prob my favorite non standard constructed format, but we desperately need that Karn ban
twilit canyon
how close are we to that one fun izzet deck in historic
twiddle storm?
not too many cards off
sleek ferry
Once we get that we can reassess the format in 8 months
twilit canyon
karn ban wont solve pioneer's issues
trail anvil
no the other one with the phat blue creature
twilit canyon
ur gonna have to be specific
living end?
creativity? (not fat blue)
rhinos?
murktide?
twilit canyon
yes
correct
so we are just missing murktide and 2 blue fetches
technically subtlety and fury are played in murktide
twilit canyon
but if we get all of modern onto arena, we are gonna see both
solitude will be the biggest power level spike to historic in terms of interaction
once solitude is on arena for historic, we can unban all but dark rit and channel
twilit canyon
no need to rehash old news
golden plover
I hope the Duskmorn designers include some house of leaves stuff
If the set is house of leaves-y that'd be sick
twilit canyon
theres a great chance it will
hidden ermine
I just hope Bloommarrow will have insects and frogs
twilit canyon
they announced both
sudden lava
https://preview.redd.it/3rkbtyhvecgb1.jpg?auto=webp&s=c0920c2576324a6cfa04b3c055...
ooh jurassic park ixalan 😮
twilit canyon
Oh they did?
yeah in the tweet over it
twilit canyon
https://twitter.com/wizards_magic/status/1687909127656263680?s=20
here
trail anvil
apparently we're only getting khans of tarkir set and not the block, does that one have the fetches? @twilit canyon
twilit canyon
it is full set
golden plover
The allied fetches are in Khans, yeah
dense berry
not the worst case scenario but pretty bad
probably around like 70 dollars of cardboard
stark skiff
Anyone have some recommendations on how to upgrade the Eldrazi deck? Ended up picking it up. Will pick up Sliver later too
stark skiff
why not?
rigid scarab
I feel like you could have bought the singles for eldrazi unbound with your uprades
And spend less total money
stark skiff
Starting from scratch. Didnt care, but now I just wanna know what to add to improve it.
someone pointed me to Eye of Ugin and that alone is like $30-$40 bucks lol.
dense berry
you could have owned an eye of ugin + everything relevant from the precon for like 60 dollars
i only got some collector boosters because they were essentially entirely free for me
this set is a trap
rich bronze
what do yall want for mh3
Tbh my "perfect deck" plays 5 colors 12-16 fetchlands, and shocks+triomes for every color and some other lands as needed for a total of 22-26 lands, a playset of w6 and leyline binding . That's already 30-24 cards, so fill in the rest with whatever you want, preferably good cards of every colour
so I'd like some more good domain cards
glad peak
My perfect deck is back to basics and blood moon and price of progress
rich bronze
My perfect deck is back to basics and blood moon and price of progress
okay satan
fallow citrus
I hate that I read it as price of poggers
lost widgetBOT
atomic harness
[[price of progress]]
lost widgetBOT
dense berry
i want mh3 to be underpowered
golden plover
Yeah but that doesn't sell packs
It's gonna be as strong as ever
Also, why was the murder mystery set on Ravnica where people can literally talk to the dead. Wouldn't Fiora have fit a lot better?
Fiora ghost rules seem a lot less easy to bring someone back
Yeah there's very few proper spirits in Fiora
Brago was the result of a failed ritual
The custodi can make them, but unless the victim is like Marchesa or something, they probably don't care
Wait that would have been so much cooler
Kill off Leovold since it'd be a big political thing for Fiora
Also, I feel like the killer is probably too obvious if it's going off the key art
It's clearly Aurelia
Judith and Massacre Girl are out because Rakdos red herrings. Krenko is probably not the killer too because he'd own up to it. The Izzet dino is too new and doesn't matter
That leaves the detective guy and Aurelia
So it's pretty clearly Aurelia
fallow citrus
wonder if this is actually going to be the case
https://twitter.com/Mengu09/status/1688244995281604608?t=xppz_LK0bNbDbn6aJ548EA&s=19
sudden lava
this being 8 dollars is understandable
merry owl
i just need bruna but it wouldn't be right to not get a matching gisela too
dense berry
i wish mtg cards injected the dopamine that japanese tcgs do
rich bronze
It's gonna be as strong as ever
Eh doubt it
I think it’ll be MH1 level
So like, some good reprints
Some good expensive staples
and a few broken cards
rich bronze
T-5 hours btw
sleek ferry
Yeah, I think expecting MH3 to be as strong as MH2 is a pipe dream. It will have format warping cards, but it won’t be in MH2’s level
glad peak
We said that about MH2 when MH1 warped the format 
sleek ferry
I think MH2 had a different sort of standard to live up to. Anything worse than MH1 would have been shitted on by the community, anything better would have still been shitted on by the community (as we currently see)
MH3 shouldn't have those same expectations
fallow citrus
unfortunately it doesn't matter what mh3 is
it's just automatically going to be shit on for being straight to modern
sleek ferry
it's just automatically going to be shit on for being straight to modern
we try to ignore those negative nancy's
fallow citrus
we try but they are literally everywhere
sleek ferry
it's sadly an all too common issue in tcg's
I mean half of #general_yugioh is just bitching about new cards not being strong enough
rich bronze
I mean half of <#470337409729560586> is just bitching about new cards not being ...
TOO MUCH POWER CREEP
NOT ENOUGH POWER CREEP
fallow citrus
part of me wonders if we got direct to legacy, pioneer etc sets then people might complain less
meager isle
I’ll shit on mh for having must run $50+ cards
sleek ferry
I’ll shit on mh for having must run $50+ cards
do you shit on yugioh for having must run 100 dollar + cards
meager isle
Yes
meager isle
Wotc gotta have their lunch break first
rich bronze
?
It’s already here
Preordain unbanned in modern
Minds desire in legacy
Nothing else
lusty trench
One ring haters in shambles
meager isle
Oh is it?
fallow citrus
I said to a friend it'd be neat if they used mh3 to introduce preordain back
guess I was thinking too far ahead
meager isle
Sigh another season of not playing Modern
sleek ferry
the defense of TOR was so dumb lol
meager isle
Tor?
Oh ring
Yeah his only defense against it was anecdotal
And he wasn’t even playing
sleek ferry
Games can be frequently decided by having The One Ring in play for multiple turns, but the bar for four-mana cards being too strong in a format as powerful as Modern is high. Not many games are quickly decided by a runaway from either The One Ring or Orcish Bowmasters, allowing players to play longer interactive games with plenty of back-and-forth. I must have witnessed Urza's Saga recruiting Haywire Mite to take care of The One Ring about a dozen times, which begs the question: who is the real hero of the story?
That said, while we aren't taking action against any cards from The Lord of the Rings: Tales of Middle-earth today, we do want to be clear that these cards are on our radar. Despite the healthy tournament results and there seemingly being plenty of wiggle room to explore further in the format during the upcoming Regional Championship Qualifiers, the play rates of these cards are still high. We'll be monitoring the long-term fun of The One Ring's play pattern, especially given its ability to be looped and/or reset to repeat its enters-the-battlefield ability. Similarly, Orcish Bowmasters has done a substantial amount of work to suppress one-toughness creatures in the environment, to the point where Ragavan, Nimble Pilferer isn't seeing much play in the format outside of Rakdos Evoke.
OBM is fine, just kill TOR and W6 and we're balling
sudden lava
W6?
sleek ferry
Wrenn and Six
meager isle
I fully expect them to not ban it until after the Christmas reprint of the lotr set
So i guess I’m waiting until next year
sudden lava
ah
sleek ferry
The Pioneer metagame continues to have a wide spread of play styles and archetype representation from tournament to tournament. While there are known pillars in Mono-Green Devotion, Rakdos variants, and creature-centric aggro decks, their metagame shares rise and fall at a healthy clip. Recently, new versions of Lotus Field Control have gotten some extra attention, but its win rate and metagame share sit about where we would expect any reasonable deck to fall. Without a clear top dog or unanswerable archetype pushing other decks out, we've elected for no change at this time.
Bro, who wrote this
and what's their credentials
rigid scarab
ChatGPT
sleek ferry
Us: WOTC, the answer is simple B_N K_RN
WOTC: 
rigid scarab
Bin Korn
twilit canyon
The Pioneer metagame continues to have a wide spread of play styles and archetyp...
im tellin yall pioneer cant be saved
sleek ferry
I just don’t understand why they’re insisting on just not doing anything
meager isle
They probably don’t play the format
I must have witnessed Urza's Saga recruiting Haywire Mite to take care of The One Ring about a dozen times, which begs the question: who is the real hero of the story?
Ring dies to removal so it’s okay everyone
twilit canyon
carmen handy is one of the most intelligent players out there working for wotc. if she found no reason to change pioneer or given her reason for no change i trust her
twilit canyon
> I must have witnessed Urza's Saga recruiting Haywire Mite to take care of The ...
they mentioned that it is an important factor but also a reason that they are keeping an eye out on it. i think this is a fine b&r
meager isle
carmen handy is one of the most intelligent players out there working for wotc. ...
Does said person play pioneer?
Idk the wotc empoyees other than maro
twilit canyon
yes she does
meager isle
Alright then
The modern one is iffy to me
Like yea I hope ring gets the axe after Christmas but like it sends the message it was only axed after reprint product was sold
twilit canyon
she created the original eldraine brawl decks and was part of the rivals league only dropping bc she was given full term employment by wotc to the play design team
rich bronze
Since the cascade decks didn’t get hit at all… guess this is going into burn
meager isle
Tbh I don’t care about any single employee because they can only have so much input
twilit canyon
she also was the lead designer for streets of new capenna and phyrexia all will be one
twilit canyon
Since the cascade decks didn’t get hit at all… guess this is going into burn
chalice value continues to improve in modern
rich bronze
chalice value continues to improve in modern
Indeed
rich bronze
Can we get chalice reprint?
We will but tbh don’t get your hopes on it being cheap
meager isle
Sigh
twilit canyon
chalice can get reprinted as a common and itd still be expensive as balls
ofc not as much as rn
rich bronze
it’s gonna be a mythic from now on
twilit canyon
the demand for chalice is insanely high compared to its printings
rich bronze
In masters sets only
twilit canyon
even if it was reprinted more readily itd be expensive is my point
meager isle
Common would crater it to sub 10
rich bronze
Yeah over 50 bucks for something with multiple reprints is a lot
meager isle
Maybe even 5
twilit canyon
i was exaggerating obvs but point stands. say it gets printed in wilds of eldraine
meager isle
As a mythic
twilit canyon
price drops to 40$ maybe 30 for a bit
meager isle
Thanks wotc
rich bronze
Isn’t wilds of eldraine standard legal
twilit canyon
yes
twilit canyon
yea we know eldraine's extra sheet is enchantments but u get what i mean
rich bronze
Since the cascade decks didn’t get hit at all… guess this is going into burn
I got these a week ago for $135 total
So got a good deal
twilit canyon
even if more readily reprinted, it'll still be insanely pricey
lusty trench
I think I had one at some point somewhere
God knows if It's still in my bulk
That's between the bulk and god
twilit canyon
chalice is sometimes useless and drops in price a fair amount
meager isle
Yeah a lot of cards start cheap then when it hits $50+ wotc just decides to keep it at that price
Bar very few exceptions
rich bronze
Reprint equity
They take $50 cards reprint them at mythic they drop to 30 and in 3 years they’re back to $50
twilit canyon
chalice also experiences periods of being unplayable
twilit canyon
true but legacy's playerbase is never a big draw for price
rich bronze
used to be
meager isle
It still randomly affects price
twilit canyon
[[$tarmagoyf]]
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meager isle
I think it’s mostly scalpers selling to each other though
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rich bronze
It still randomly affects price
Yeah as a legacy lands player seeing Minsc and Boo go to 20 was surreal
Like
How many legacy lands players are there
twilit canyon
now is the time to pick up a goyf playset
rich bronze
The ONLY deck that wanted it
twilit canyon
Yeah as a legacy lands player seeing Minsc and Boo go to 20 was surreal
ok tbf mnb is like one of the best walker printed or at least its the best legacy walker
rich bronze
It was $5 forever
twilit canyon
ik a few jeskai control players play green entirely for mnb
twilit canyon
[[$minsc and boo, timeless heroes]]
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twilit canyon
its at a reasonable price rn at least
lusty trench
Hampter
rich bronze
its at a reasonable price rn at least
Aye
lusty trench
Best part about minsc and boo for me is it's a good draw engine for gruul decks in edh
golden plover
I'm guessing the new token type is gonna be enchantments?
Adventures on a new permanent type has to be enchantments
dense berry
why dont they just say they arent banning TOR and orcish because they don't wanna impact product sales
golden plover
Because they'd never be that blatant about it
dense berry
meh i dont mind the truth
golden plover
Gotta have the reason of "it's too new and we think we need more time to evaluate them" and then ban them in December after the bundles come out
dense berry
indeed
well at least them dodging the bullet here will probably inflate their price tags for the people who bought them so they can move them before then
twilit canyon
idt bowmasters needed a ban
golden plover
I figure the creature type for a draft archetype has to be Faerie?
twilit canyon
one ring is probs ban worthy but it didnt win the pt. hard to justify banning a card that is just popular if it doesnt win it all. also i think play patters in regards is def not super fun but its not impossible
lusty trench
Also we getting panharmonicon 5 out here huh
meager isle
I'm guessing the new token type is gonna be enchantments?
Doesn’t shrines already have enchantment tokens?
golden plover
Doesn’t shrines already have enchantment tokens?
Oh shit you're right
Fuck in that case it's gotta be land tokens?
last glen
Battle tokens?
golden plover
Battles are definitely too new for tokens
meager isle
Planeswalker tokens 
last glen
Now you're cooking
golden plover
Could be Planeswalker tokens, but the amount of text on each card would be insane
meager isle
Well I guess we technically already have that with jace copying himself
last glen
Deck token
meager isle
meager isle
Unless they mean type by like food token kind of type
golden plover
[[Awaken the Woods]] makes Dryad Arbors
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meager isle
Oh I guess land is out then
last glen
What if it's not a new card type of token
But instead a new type of token that can do things other tokens cannot, like be in the GY permanently
golden plover
I mean it could be land because we haven't had them cared about yet
It technically could be enchantments too since only 3 cards make enchantment tokens
clever sun
golden plover
Actually I'm assuming that it's gotta be enchantments and they're also "Reflections"
fallow citrus
only thing that was sus about the b&r list was no pioneer changes imo
twilit canyon
mentally preparing the community for an insanely broken wilds of eldraine release
twilit canyon
he now dies to bloodchief's thirst nice nerf
meager isle
Isn’t oko in the wildwest plane?
twilit canyon
yes
trail anvil
oof this gold pack
sleek ferry
mentally preparing the community for an insanely broken wilds of eldraine releas...
What does history tell us about the sequel to a broken plane also being broken the 2nd time around?
twilit canyon
we never see the plane with good cards ever again
sleek ferry
Ah
twilit canyon
also it kills the format(s) its involved in
sleek ferry
I do have a feeling either wilds or lost caverns will be broken though
Like what was our most broken standard set we’ve gotten this rotation so far? Kamigawa?
twilit canyon
in terms of power as a whole yeah
dense berry
fun fact about minds desire
its the fastest banned card of all time in a tcg
banned i believe 1 week before the release date of scourge
golden plover
Weren't there some pre-bans in yugioh?
Skullcrobat, Monkeyboard, and Reborn Tengu iirc
trail anvil
skullcrobat came out way back in the magician structure deck
hidden ermine
What does history tell us about the sequel to a broken plane also being broken t...
Wait do we even have many examples for this?
Phyrexia is the only one that comes to mind
trail anvil
monkeyboard wasn't pre-banned either to my knowledge
if tengu was then it's probably because ocg and tcg list were the same
lutri should be the fastest banned card of all time since it was banned on reveal in commander yeah?
golden plover
Oh true. Forgot about Lutri
sleek ferry
Wait do we even have many examples for this?
Hmm zendikar? Idk that was before my time
It’s weird that we’re going back to both eldraine and strixhaven though before Ikoria
hidden ermine
I dont think the first Zendikar was broken?
Or second
I forgor which one had eye of ugin
dense berry
lutri should be the fastest banned card of all time since it was banned on revea...
commander doesnt count imo since the RC arent technically affiliated with WOTC
copper pecan
memory jar is the fastest banned card other than lutri
banned on the day the set came out
sleek ferry
banned on the day the set came out
Isn’t the actual story that it was announced to be banned 20 days before the card was released
But the actual banning didn’t go into effect till day of release
copper pecan
i forgor
golden plover
According to Mark Rosewater, having better cards literally makes a set cost more???
Like that's such a weird self-imposed restriction
dense berry
this definitely doesnt read out like something MaRo wants to say
golden plover
Yeah, I really think "we charge more for the good cards" is really blatant and shouldn't have been said?
hidden ermine
Their reasoning is that if they release 2 sets at the time and one has a higher powerlevel, the stronger set cannibalises the sales of the weaker set
... though why they dont just release them at different times idk
golden plover
Yeah exactly?
Like you could just have them come out at different times?
Or make the standard set have a cool reason to want it too
But yeah, that was a weird response I'd say he shouldn't have said
dense berry
it seems like he's probably frustrated from all the corporate meddling that he has to answer for at this point
sleek ferry
@rich bronze do you have the win ratios for the decks at pro tour by any chance?
I can’t seem to find it
dense berry
He usually just avoids that tho
its probably been flooding in more than usual lately tbh
golden plover
True
dense berry
this has been a shit year for the guy
hes the face of r&d but he can't control what gets printed and where due to the corpos
atomic harness
Tell em loot
golden plover
I do genuinely feel really bad for Mark and most of the other game designers
They do really want the game to be at it's best, and Hasbro is ruining that
rich bronze
Man 8-cast
Really cool deck
But it’s hard to justify spending that much on it considering it has 0 RL cards
sleek ferry
I built mono black battles for standard, and I'm having a blast
rich bronze
meme format
sleek ferry
got to ulti liliana 5 times in 7 games
rich bronze
got to ulti liliana 5 times in 7 games
meme format
sleek ferry
That's fine, I personally enjoy standard
lusty trench
It's very hard to fault Maro for this response but it's just like a three paragraph "No??? Really??? I never would've guessed!!!!"
(as an aside the solution to this is to stop making so much product, but that profit line has to go up)
hidden ermine
Yay capitalism
dense berry
oh yeah maro is definitely pissed
golden plover
Yeah the solution really is just space out products more
Also he doesn't mean power level
He keeps saying power level but means price
[[Llanowar Elves]] sees Legacy play and costs $0.05
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Creature — Elf Druid
: Add 
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As patient and generous as life, as harsh and merciless as nature.
1/1
lusty trench
People wouldn't even of been mad at commander masters had it, y'know
not had shit like talrand and zetolpa
golden plover
But [[Doubling Season]], which costs $80, only sees play in commander
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golden plover
Doubling Season is technically a much weaker card
But it's also a much more expensive card
golden plover
Yeah doubling season is not a strong card
But by "power level" he means the secondary market price of the cards
If he really meant power level, there'd never be any dorks getting reprinted in standard
But he definitely can't say "we charge more for reprints of expensive cards"
dense berry
my favorite 5 mana do nothing is Panoptic Mirror because the only format where it could possibly do anything at all (and still be overwhelmingly bad at doing it) its banned
golden plover
Wait why'd I pick llanowar Elves
Literally the most powerful card in the game is a $0.10 uncommon
copper pecan
seems pretty good so far
twilit canyon
Literally the most powerful card in the game is a $0.10 uncommon
ei isnt a 10c card 
golden plover
I was referring to [[Sol Ring]]
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Artifact
: Add 
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Lost to time is the artificer's art of trapping light from a distant star in a ring of purest gold.
twilit canyon
expressive iteration is a stronger card than sol ring in a lot of ways but i guess so
sleek ferry
EI is nuts
Hear me out her though, ban Karn and unban EI in pioneer
Also, am I the only one that finds the twins lame?
meager isle
I was referring to [[Sol Ring]]
No way sol ring is less than a dollar
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trail anvil
why is this card legal again
trail anvil
nvm they played back their entire board
zinc shard
Shoutout to my opponent for making the most obnoxious Esper Control deck using nothing but LOTR cards
trail anvil
I'm sure a ton of the best annoying ones came from there anyways 
also wait this event is alchemy?
twilit canyon
your issue is playing mono-black aggro in alchemy
sleek ferry
Well he’s not wrong about alchemy being a shit show post Lotr
But the event itself is w.e
sleek ferry
I disagree. Alchemy was not ready for the card quality in LOTR, and the format just feels like Yugioh right now
atomic harness
rich bronze
4RGB [CARDNAME]
2/2 Delve
[CARDNAME] enters the battlefield with a +1/+1 counter for each land exiled with it.
Whenever a land leaves a players’ graveyard, add a +1/+1 counter to [CARDNAME]
Remove a +1/+1 counter from [CARDNAME]: create a treasure token
Thoughts on this 🤔
rigid scarab
What I read is a 7 mana win the game
But actually it has delve
So actually its 3 mana win the game
lusty trench
I've tried to help educate my playgroup on how to build eldrazis
rigid scarab
I've tried to help educate my playgroup on how to build eldrazis
But Eldrazi are cool
hidden ermine
Void Winnower is an Eldrazi :)
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Legendary Artifact Creature — Construct
Haste
, : Copy target activated or triggered ability you control from another legendary source that's not a commander. You may choose new targets for the copy. (Mana abilities can't be targeted.)
Jhoira stumbled upon an ally, not just a good source of spare parts.
1/5
rigid scarab
But unironically "it's cool" probably convinces enough people to put titans into the deck
Like what are you gonna do
Build cEDH Zhulodock?
lusty trench
It's also like
£130 for the titans alone?
Emrakul costs as much as a fuckin imperial seal and that's not okay
rigid scarab
That's a separate issue though
Like yeah tell your friends that the titans are an unnecessary include
But not like a 'don't do it' thing
That's up to them
rich bronze
So actually its 3 mana win the game
Designed for modern
And so far the reception has been
rigid scarab
Then it's balanced
rich bronze
Anywhere from “breaks the format” to “sees 0 competitive play”
Which tells me it’s balanced
rigid scarab
Which tells me it’s balanced
The metric to go by is
Is a 3 mana 2 card enabler balanced if it's 3 colors
stark skiff
But unironically "it's cool" probably convinces enough people to put titans into...
That’s why I bought the deck in the first place shrug
waxen timber
Faced like 3 jund decks in a row for historic and was almost free beating them with Orzhov LOTR control.
They all didn't play enough basics so, they had all their lands destroyed and Boromir hoses the alchemy Gruul legend
Also playing Troll as a bad fetchland/MDFC has been working out really well. I've won so many games by getting to 6 lands, plopping him on the field and beating down with super menace.
modern minnow
Are you playing any of the big dumb precon stuff in zhulodok
Like the 12 mana spell kinda wins the game but idk how i feel about like darksteel monument
rigid scarab
What's the difference between 'learn from experience' and 'arms race'
golden plover
Ayy we are actually getting that "Rowan is evil" arc
I knew [[Crackle With Power]] was setting up something
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lusty trench
Love to see a girlboss winning
golden plover
Deciding to become evil instead of therapy
lusty trench
Based
golden plover
Why get better when you can get worse and stronger
golden plover
Possibly
zinc shard
sleek ferry
Hopefully they don’t do the raven man dirty like my boy
golden plover
I mean have you seen his one card
sleek ferry
[[raven man]]
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Legendary Creature — Human Wizard
At the beginning of each end step, if a player discarded a card this turn, create a 1/1 black Bird creature token with flying and "This creature can't block."
, : Each opponent discards a card. Activate only as a sorcery.
2/1
lusty trench
Bro does nothing
golden plover
Hey for 6 total mana, you can get a 2/1, make the opponent discard 1, and also get a 1/1 flier that can't block
Think of all the possibilities. It's one of the strongest Planeswalkers ever in lore
Also, I'm convinced this card was done last minute just so they could reprint LoTV and people would shut up about the raven man
It's not even new art. It's random art from 10 years ago
lusty trench
Wizards really hates discard strats
There's been a massive shift to making black not do that anymore
Most recent design I can think of is tinybones and he's just a heehoo funny commander
sleek ferry
Idk why they made the crow not be able to block, unless the idea was that they’re spirit crows
Well anyways I think the raven man is just Urza
golden plover
I mean, I guess they were afraid he'd end up being [[Bitterblossom]] 2
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lusty trench
Could you imagine
sleek ferry
Who the hell is lim dul
lusty trench
Who the hell is lim dul
Right? He's some nobody that nobody cares about
golden plover
The story in DMU confirmed that
lusty trench
Guy legit does nothing and he's been hinted at for years
golden plover
Don't ask how Lim-Dul is alive or why he's been haunting Liliana for years
sleek ferry
[[lim-dul]]
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Legendary Creature — Human Wizard
Whenever a creature an opponent controls dies, you may pay . If you do, return that card to the battlefield under your control. If it's a creature, it's a Zombie in addition to its other creature types.
: Regenerate target Zombie.
4/4
lusty trench
Legit all he's done is stalk Liliana iirc
golden plover
He's an old walker that was supposedly as powerful as Urza
He was a villain during the ice age arc
lusty trench
ice age arc
golden plover
But Marisil killed him and trapped his soul in a ring
lusty trench
golden plover
So don't ask how he's back and not dead and also not in a ring
All you need to know is he somehow knew about the chain Veil and the phyrexians
(There were like 4 phyrexians during the ice age arc, he wouldn't have known about them)
lusty trench
I'm still a bit surprised wotc didn't go for the cheap shot of having the phyrexians reanimate Mishra and urza and meld them
They did enough random shit when the plot allowed it
golden plover
They already did that with the eldrazi
They love repeating ideas, but not that one rn
They did however bring back Ertrai, which was weird when last time we saw him he was an old man that got turned into a pile of dust
But see, we remembered all these cool old characters existed. Y'all loved The Raven Man, right?
But yeah, Lim-Dul's whole thing was zombies, so I guess that explains how he knew Liliana
But why he makes birds and cares about discards and also isn't dead is beyond me
lusty trench
But why he makes birds and cares about discards and also isn't dead is beyond me
Cause discarding puts things in the graveyard and err
Idk the bird should've been legendary and when it deals combat damage to a player it reanimates
Still wouldn't of been good but it's a funny gimmick at least
golden plover
I mean he's always appeared as a swarm of birds
Also no clue how he figured out that the phyrexians were a thing
sleek ferry
[[lim-dul the necromancer]]
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Legendary Creature — Human Wizard
Whenever a creature an opponent controls dies, you may pay . If you do, return that card to the battlefield under your control. If it's a creature, it's a Zombie in addition to its other creature types.
: Regenerate target Zombie.
4/4
rich bronze
[[$sheoldred, the apocalypse]]
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rich bronze
Sweet Jesus
sleek ferry
Card is good who knew
atomic harness
any lotus field fans in chat
sleek ferry
any lotus field fans in chat
strict proctor + lotus field fan
fallow citrus
blood sun + lotus field fan
trail anvil
managed to out a serra's emissary and play past an avacyn 
going big as green is just as fun as the other colors
twilit canyon
lusty trench
That's cool I'd probably have something pop up in the actual game to inform you of this email though
Still free welcoming vampire is not bad at all
sleek ferry
Checked my email, I didn’t get one smh
lusty trench
The bonus card in the angel deck lair is sigardas aid
zinc shard
when did this come out lmao
It's part of the Summer Sale Arenas doing rn
copper pecan
a bunch of cards from woe just leaked
hidden ermine
Got a link or smhtg?
copper pecan
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/889309912470007819/1139706568607285318/20230811_153114.png?width=1176&height=662
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/889309912470007819/1139705565346529420/SPOILER_20230811_153140.jpg?width=1176&height=662
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/889309912470007819/1139705565665312829/SPOILER_20230811_153145.jpg?width=1176&height=662
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/889309912470007819/1139705566181195856/SPOILER_20230811_153149-1.jpg?width=1176&height=662
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/889309912470007819/1139705567091376148/SPOILER_20230811_153155.png?width=1176&height=662
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/889309912470007819/1139705567791816724/SPOILER_20230811_153208.png?width=1176&height=662
not sure how i feel about role, seems like it would be kinda annoying to track
hidden ermine
Is Three Blind Mice mythic?
It shouldnt be but it almost looks like it
Though tbh it feels weird at rare too
copper pecan
i feel like scalding viper is probably really good
hidden ermine
Totentanz is german for "dance of the dead" btw
hidden ermine
i feel like scalding viper is probably really good
Agreed
last glen
Dinosaur support check
trail anvil
damn do I spoil myself and ruin future spoilers 
hidden ermine
Yes
trail anvil
so many of these cards look potentially nuts
spiteful hexmage with bargain is just a 1 mana 3/2
copper pecan
"three blind mice" is a very on the nose card name
sudden lava
oh and there is the look at top 20
hidden ermine
How does Adventure work with command zones anyway
sudden lava
hidden ermine
Do you pay +2 for the spell half too?
sudden lava
yes ^
hidden ermine
yes ^
The reason Im not sure is because commander is defined by the rules as a legendary creature
And the adventure half is a non-legendary instant
Theyll probably clarify it when it comes out
Is Ornithopter or Memnite available in any format retrofitter isnt?
sudden lava
I dont see why it wouldnt, we've had sorcery commanders before
hidden ermine
Have we?
twilit canyon
Is Ornithopter or Memnite available in any format retrofitter isnt?
modern
hidden ermine
Retrofitter isnt in modern?
sudden lava
and for those it would count casting them as a commander, so this should work the same
zinc shard
Wait a second... This is just kicker!
sudden lava
so it probably doesnt avoid tax
hidden ermine
Which I assume is a lower-powered enough format for spiteful hexmage shenanigans
sudden lava
Wait a second... This is just kicker!
everything is kicker or horsemanship
copper pecan
i feel like a lot of people aren't gonna realize you can sac roles for bargain
sudden lava
hylda is gonna be tapping down opponents stuff, I can tell
copper pecan
i like how crown of winter references [[icy manipulator]]
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Artifact
, : Tap target artifact, creature, or land.
Ice may thaw, but malice never does.
hidden ermine
Seems very mid though ngl
rigid scarab
https://media.discordapp.net/attachments/889309912470007819/1139706568607285318/...
Carl?
Send them in.
golden plover
Role feels REALLY annoying to track
trail anvil
role has tokens so I don't think it is
copper pecan
i hope they used the same setup they did in amonkhet where they had the token versions of embalm cards always show up in the pack if the regular version was in the pack
so that if you have a card that makes roles you always have the role token in the pack
sleek ferry
Yo that boros bcg is nice
That’s just a straight buff to jeskai for standard
Huh
I know it’s 3 mana
But stroke of midnight is just a straight buff to white no?
It hits everything except lands
Ngl
Eldraine is just such a cool plane
sleek ferry
<@304354673647812608> where new bcg
sleek ferry
I think it’s pretty nuts
atomic harness
I thought it was the izzet snake
golden plover
Is it just me or are the references a lot more blatant this time?
Like "Three Blind Mice" and "Gruff Triplets"
sleek ferry
Maybe? I mean I’m cool with it these cards are cool as hell
golden plover
Last time they were different takes on fairy tale things, but these are outright the thing
sleek ferry
The roles is the only thing that’s kinda eh I got to see it in action
It just reads bad
As in the wording is bad
sleek ferry
Green looks to be getting a lot of tools
Which they desperately needed
Because green in standard right now is so bad
golden plover
Dreadknight seems CRAZY from a glance
The Boros knight seems strong too
And song of totenaz and stroke of midnight are both really good
rigid scarab
Stroke of Midnight is a new low power edh staple
golden plover
Stroke is just good in general
Depending on the decks, high power decks will probably run it too
It's also gonna be really strong in Pioneer
No clue about modern, but it should be powerful in quite a few formats
sleek ferry
Yeah stroke is just really good
It’s better than borrowed time in most cases
It’s arguably better than leyline binding in most cases too
golden plover
It's better than [[Portable Hole]] most of the time too
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golden plover
And Portable Hole is a pioneer staple