well they said imagine caring about stax when there is a color about not letting you play the game which to me means not the color of stax but of counterspells
#Magic the Gathering
glad peak
Or red for the killing of players
dense berry
red be like haha nice card advantage nerd
meager isle
Plays wheel of fortune *
rigid scarab
Ok I get that this chat is favoured towards cedh
But like
Why are we telling people to like and not like stuff
I don't think people tend to say Stax is broken
Moreso
Stax is annoying to them most of the time
glad peak
Most people know logically stax is just a small hindrance but I’ve also seen too many people who actively think stax is broken 
fallow citrus
stax is just annoying and I don't like playing against it ¯_(ツ)_/¯
but like that's just my opinion
lusty trench
Okay so my opinion on stax is, if you're fine with counter spells
Stax is literally just like that
Except you can bypass it and plan around it freely cause it's open knowledge
fallow citrus
eh
like yes you're not wrong but also countermagic is literally 1 card as opposed to something that is around until it's removed
if you pay attention to mana and how people are playing you can guess countermagic too and just play accordingly
but if a stax piece drops and you don't have a way to remove it you're just going to have to live through it until you can remove it
lusty trench
like yes you're not wrong but also countermagic is literally 1 card as opposed t...
If the other 3 players don't have a way to stop the stax collectively that's on them
I don't even play stax, hell I mainly play combo and watch as stax shuts me down
But it's absolutely not an issue and stops edh from being a combo favoured format
fallow citrus
I mean you can just chalk that up to bad draws too, and maybe one of the other 3 players isn't wanting to remove the stax, then you're down to 2 people
I just don't think stax and countermagics are something that are 1:1 equivalents
it's like saying veiler and skill drain are the same because they both do the same thing
lusty trench
I don't think they are 1:1 either but it's close enough that I honestly don't mind
lusty trench
it's like saying veiler and skill drain are the same because they both do the sa...
Skill drain would have to have a cost to bypass it to be a comparable thing here
fallow citrus
wdym
lusty trench
Most stax pieces are like "pay an extra 1 mana to do a thing"
Or "you do a thing but less"
fallow citrus
Skill drain would probably have something to bypass it if ygo had a resource system
lusty trench
The effects that straight up say "you can't do thing" are on really low toughness easy to clear creatures
fallow citrus
winter orb
static orb
stasis
rule of law
archon of emeria
phyrexian censor
like those are cards I do not enjoy seeing at a table
sleek ferry
Okay so my opinion on stax is, if you're fine with counter spells
this is my thought exactly tbh
a stax piece slows down the game fully, a counter spell is a huge tempo boost for whoever casts it
lusty trench
Winter orb static orb and stasis I agree with you on being very rude
Because they just stop you from playing
The others? Eh
fallow citrus
¯_(ツ)_/¯
dense berry
as a spike there is no strategy i dislike playing against
even in casual edh pods
but thats not the case for everyone
in cedh people can get bent anything goes but in casual the goal is to play fun, social games
if the people you're playing with dont want to play against stax, dont play stax
or play against people who want to play stax in casual
fallow citrus
yeah like
I dislike stax but if I'm playing cedh I'm not going to complain out loud about the stax pieces
lusty trench
That's fair, usually if this happens I let the stax player borrow one of my decks if they don't have another one with them
dense berry
you do sadly get people that talk too much during cedh games
lusty trench
Talk too much as in give away too much private info or talk too much as in holding up the game?
dense berry
both really
its usually stax and midrange players of course
both want the game to go long
lusty trench
Oh right been meaning to ask any of y'all know any mono green creatures like elder gargaroth
dense berry
the last cedh tournament I went to in the undefeated pod we actually drew out the game in turns
fallow citrus
[[elder gargaroth]]
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dense berry
kinnan midrange guy was talking during everyone's turn
fallow citrus
[[soul of industry]] feels like this but it just does it on etb iirc
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fallow citrus
oh ffs
dense berry
then resolved a seedborn muse and actually got to play on everyone's turn
fallow citrus
[[titan of industry]]
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fallow citrus
lmao seedborn muse is so fun to play with but holy shit playing against it sucks
dense berry
the one guy that got paired up was just getting manipulated the entire game by the kinnan
people arent awakened to the fact that politics are basically always bad news
the TO even asked if we wanted to split nearly a full hour before the game ended
the turn cycles took a full hour
we had no reason not to split the prizes would have paid out to the same people since only 3 people were X-0
meager isle
The effects that straight up say "you can't do thing" are on really low toughnes...
Winter orb things
atomic harness
I would like to thank dispatch for outing a 42/42 serra avatar and a blightsteel colossus
if I had for swords the former I could never kill him 
subtle sierra
I would like to thank dispatch for outing a 42/42 serra avatar and a blightsteel...
i know this is about a card i don't know, but this sounded like you called the police on them
atomic harness
[[dispatch]]
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sleek ferry
dispatch is def a card of all time
meager isle
It’s swords #3
dense berry
my brother played it in modern affinity back in like 2013
clever sun
Affinity just doesn't care to splash really
atomic harness
sleek ferry
So satisfying when you power through all the bullshit
sleek ferry
@twilit canyon threw in 1 [[hexgold hoverwings]] to try it out and its been pretty good so far. Mana base is def something I need to fix though, there's a good handful of games I could have probably won if I had a couple of mirrex's in the deck
lost widgetBOT
Artifact — Equipment
For Mirrodin! (When this Equipment enters the battlefield, create a 2/2 red Rebel creature token, then attach this to it.)
Equipped creature has flying.
Creatures you control that are equipped get +1/+0.
Equip 
atomic harness
@sleek ferry currently watching hazored vs temur
sleek ferry
starting it now
atomic harness
||super clean game 1, hazoret to finish it off 
. Chainwhirler did so much too||
meager isle
Is this pioneer?
sleek ferry
cardmarket's best standard game of all time tourney
the finals just got posted
||What a greedy hand for william to keep g1 tbh||
atomic harness
||cut and ribbons g3||
meager isle
How does tolarian academy just not face roll everything?
meager isle
That’s what I’m assuming yea
atomic harness
I think tolarian tinker died to temur or something early
dense berry
last time I remember something like this they had a bunch of hall of fame players playing these decks
i think Randy Buehler took the grand finals with Necropotence and he was paired against Academy
clever sun
Are they just not playing the best version?
Older decks can lack raw power of newer ones
Just not built to handle a three mana 3/2 that draws a card and furthers your wincon
meager isle
But it wins on turn two
meager isle
Was the deck even played though?
Like I can probably easily answer this by watching the first vid
I’ll just look for myself when I go home
twilit canyon
takeaways for historic
if ur on a midrange/control deck, you need min 2 copies of the one ring
ceremonius rejection has gone up in value a lot
bcg for any red aggro deck or midrange decks even has become important at some number to play
outside of wizards
dense berry
post mtga launch card design is all about consistency, wheel spinning mechanics (mana sinks attached to stuff, flashback style recycle mechanics etc) and midrange value permanents
i could maybe see an old standard combo deck losing the coin flip to some recent red deck wins and just getting gored while they spin their wheels
sleek ferry
I really wish lotr affected explorer
There’s so many cards that are fringe that could possibly find a home in explorer
meager isle
What’s the difference between historic explorer and alchemy?
twilit canyon
alchemy is standard with extra cards some of which are digital-only designs
alchemy also doesnt ban very often instead they rebalance
historic is mtga's vintage by all means
every single card legal on arena + a banlist
explorer is just mtga pioneer and will eventually become pioneer fully
sleek ferry
alchemy also doesnt ban very often instead they rebalance
Wasn’t it implied with the standard ban changes that this would change?
twilit canyon
no
alchemy will still mostly rebalance
unless its impossible to rebalance a card that would leave it in a satisfying spot
sleek ferry
Maybe I mthinking of them saying they would rebalance at the same rate as they would look at possible standard bans
trail anvil
how's heathook performing in alchemy/historic?
twilit canyon
its ok
meta isnt super friendly to it
its not very on-rate atm due to multiple factors like thalia and even cards like [[captain eberhart]]
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Legendary Creature — Human Soldier
Double strike
Spells cast from among cards you drew this turn cost 
less to cast.
Spells cast from among cards your opponents drew this turn cost more to cast.
1/2
twilit canyon
which makes drawing it suck
also invasion of gobakhan
and reprieve obviously hurts it a lot
getting tempoed by the white aggro deck is brutal
other reasons in alchemy/historic too again being the type of aggro decks
wizards have a lot of toughness actually
sage balmor and arcanist have 3
ssm has 2 but prowess puts it up
humans have thalia's lieutenant and thalia herself and they started popularizing [[juggernaut peddler]]
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twilit canyon
merfolk have vodalian hexcatchter and too many lords to hit them on curve
goblins kind of want to die
like u meathook them and they draw 10 sort of deal
auras never cared about meathook
the boros legends deck that is popping off recently
they have 2 issues for meathook
they either maindeck thalia and eberhart and u get screwed up that way
or they main reprieve and white tree so ur meathook is super inefficient and slow
clever sun
I think it's worth mentioning how we have better board wipes for specific situations too
Divine Purge, Sunfall, Glistening Deluge, Brotherhood's End, Supreme Verdict, (not technically a wipe) Night of Soul's Betrayal
All of these are powerful in specific ways but they matter a lot more than Meathook does at the moment in Historic (and alchemy)
It could be reverted to normal and it'd be fine
copper pecan
[[glistening deluge]]
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atomic harness
@sleek ferry chainwhirler vs virtuoso was beyond bullying
glad peak
Whirler vs whirler let’s go
clever sun
The better whirler wins
glad peak
[[Watcher in the deep]] in [[marneus]] is funny
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Legendary Creature — Astartes Warrior
Double strike
Master Tactician — Whenever one or more tokens enter the battlefield under your control, draw a card.
Chapter Master — 
: Create two 2/2 white Astartes Warrior creature tokens with vigilance.
3/5
glad peak
[[watcher in the water]] I mean
lost widgetBOT
atomic harness
https://scryfall.com/card/soi/239/watcher-in-the-web
Sorry kid this is what you meant
glad peak
Indeed 
rigid scarab
Honestly
Why am I seeing more people who rag on casual edh whiners
Than actual casual edh whiners
rigid scarab
PSA 9 was from WOTC
100%
Honestly
I don't want more details
The less we know about the guy who pulled it
The better
twilit canyon
hoooooooo thats crazy
hidden ermine
Guess now the value of the collector boosters plummets
meager isle
Looks like it already has
sudden lava
the Secret Lair for LOTR was so bad
rigid scarab
Answer by multiple choice here
Was it
A. Opened in a Gift Bundle
B. Opened in a Collector Booster
And by
A. An LGS
B. A box grinder
C. Someone who bought some loose packs
D. Someone who got prize packs
lusty trench
People who pre-ordered gift bundles in shambles
atomic harness
In response to Sickle's question on the stack, his opponent casted Force of Will! "Better luck next time, Sickle!"
lusty trench
In response to Sickle's question on the stack, his opponent casted **Force of Wi...
What if they cast veil of summer in response
What then
rigid scarab
They just have a second force of will
rigid scarab
real
atomic harness
mental misstep
atomic harness
[[destiny spinner]]
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Enchantment Creature — Human
Creature and enchantment spells you control can't be countered.
: Target land you control becomes an X/X Elemental creature with trample and haste until end of turn, where X is the number of enchantments you control. It's still a land.
2/3
atomic harness
rigid scarab
mental misstep
Sudden Substitution
twilit canyon
it was a box grinder for sure. they got it graded immediately
atomic harness
lusty trench
Not only that these arts aren't from the original cels
They have artifacting and incorrect colour contrasting
sleek ferry
A. Opened in a Gift Bundle
B. Opened in a Collector Booster
Collector booster box by a box grinder
Btw, it should be noted that this little stunt more than likely made LGS’ bank
meager isle
Did you open yours yet?
golden plover
Guess now the value of the collector boosters plummets
Yup there goes the entire set value lmao
rigid scarab
One Ring-lite or bust
golden plover
Ive said plenty of times the entire value of a collectors booster is either unopened or in a one ring
Even the regular one is $60
But there's 0 other cards worth more than $20 in the set
golden plover
Fair, but you'd have to pull both to BREAK EVEN if you don't see the ring
meager isle
the serialized sol rings
sleek ferry
And there’s a bunch of rares and mythics worth 8+ dollars
golden plover
Realistically most people won't see a sol ring so that's out of the equation
meager isle
And there’s a bunch of rares and mythics worth 8+ dollars
For now
sleek ferry
Not even accounting for the fact that the modern meta game has yet to dictate the market rn
golden plover
$40 for 15 cards means you've gotta pull a couple of the $7-10 cards
The odds of you breaking even without a one ring or a Bowmasters are basically nonexistent
sleek ferry
Now that the 1 of 1 has been opened, we’ll see prices settle and Modern + Commander start dictating this sets value more
golden plover
Collectors boosters are always a scam, but this set is particularly bad for it
sleek ferry
Not even counting the serialized stuff because that’s all lottery shit that shouldn’t count
But seeing how the prices of collector’s boxes is already at 360, if it settles around the 320 range or even 300, you can def justify buying a box
meager isle
12 but close enough
golden plover
The odds of you making $300ish are basically nonexistent
sleek ferry
The average pull value of a box from 10 cases was around $300 a box
golden plover
I can't really see that when there's like 3 cards over $10 in the whole set
Hell, it was bad enough the Professor refused to do booster box game for the set
Value is just not there
sleek ferry
Hell, it was bad enough the Professor refused to do booster box game for the set
He refused to do it because he’s giving away 8 cases away on stream today
He had the product on him
golden plover
I'm aware
But he said that the value was non-existent
Opening the booster box is gonna be at a loss for 90% of the boxes
meager isle
Are they? TIL
golden plover
So it's 9 of them, which is a little more frequent than usual, but they're harder to find a specific art
twilit canyon
weird. they cost me just 4 wildcards for free instead of over 100$
hidden ermine
Why are the Nazgul so pricey anyway
sleek ferry
Speaking of Nazgûl
golden plover
But yeah, now that the 1/1 ring has been found the set value is gonna go from anemic to dead
sleek ferry
Do you have an updated historic list for that Nazgûl deck Misty?
golden plover
Why are the Nazgul so pricey anyway
Technically short printed, 9 different arts, a playset needs 9 of them, and most people would want one of each art to get the 9
golden plover
They'll probably drop in the future the more people realize the card is ass
But like, it's a collector/memey thing that's causing the price to go up
Honestly, I expect every card in the set that isn't seeing modern/edh play to drop hard now
meager isle
[[nazgul]]
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golden plover
Honestly, tempt is just a really not very well designed mechanic as a whole lmao
And yeah, the thing is putting a bunch of counters on a few 1/2s for 3 with death touch
But at the end of the day, how valuable is that for you?
waxen timber
After playing with tempt in limited, I think it holds up better than I thought it would
meager isle
Well that’s limited
waxen timber
Most of the stages are meaningful and the cost to tempt is pretty low
meager isle
If it was designed for limited then all the power to them
golden plover
Tempt is good in limited like most set mechanics are
sleek ferry
But at the end of the day, how valuable is that for you?
Apparently pretty good since it’s seeing play in historic and alchemy
waxen timber
I am probably going to include a few tempt cards in my commander decks. I've liked it decently well
meager isle
Apparently pretty good since it’s seeing play in historic and alchemy
What cards? I don’t play those formats
sleek ferry
Nazgul
waxen timber
My biggest problem is stage 3 and 4+. Like stage 1 of being able to attack evasivly is pretty good, stage 2 is amazing, stage 4 is okay
meager isle
Stage 4 is just wotc telling you finish the game already
waxen timber
Stage 3 is so underpowered. Like I think it has only helped like once
meager isle
I can’t imagine a scenario where it’s good
sleek ferry
My biggest issue is that I feel they dropped the ball on this set not being pioneer/explorer legal for arena
Delighted Halfling would have an immediate home in Gruul
sleek ferry
Well you know what it would do? Bring more eyes/players to pioneer
And they desperately need them
twilit canyon
this goes entirely against the concept of pioneer
sleek ferry
There’s a concept to pioneer?
twilit canyon
pioneer is supposed to exclude supplementary non-standard sets
meager isle
All standard sets
sleek ferry
Ah
meager isle
Since.. 2013?
waxen timber
Oh God no, orcish bowmaster in pioneer would be miserable
meager isle
At the same time nothing is stopping wotc from doing a random set legal for pioneer like how it is for modern
But I hope they don’t
twilit canyon
pioneer horizons
meager isle
Plz no
twilit canyon
but yeah that is something they wanted to avoid from the on-set
sleek ferry
Wel that makes sense then
golden plover
Yeah pioneer is designed as "modern-lite" and ignoring all the direct to format sets
clever sun
The ring was found?
golden plover
Yup
clever sun
Crazy
clever sun
Wel that makes sense then
Yeah Pioneer is intentionally excluding these specific cards from supplemental non-standard sets
hidden ermine
Was either found by, or bought by a sports cards company apparently
twilit canyon
thats why we got lotv reprinted
hidden ermine
Also it got graded and its only a 9 out of pack lmao
twilit canyon
in dmu
golden plover
Also it got graded and its only a 9 out of pack lmao
Honestly that's hilarious
This is the 1/1 card
golden plover
And they couldn't even take extra steps to make it not fucked out of the pack
sleek ferry
Anything out of a pack is extremely hard to get a 10 on
also the PSA rating has very little relevance in this case
clever sun
Can't stop the pack from having moisture and damage pre-packing
sleek ferry
the card is worth 5 million regardless of grade
golden plover
It was shown curled in the video tho
clever sun
Also a nine is fucking insane
clever sun
Y'all are crazy if you think a nine isn't already near-perfect
golden plover
I mean, it definitely is
But you'd think they would have shot for a psa 10 on a card that's got an copy
clever sun
The only tens are perfect framing, foiling, light-refraction, borders, lettering, and color of the frame and letters
This grade is elusive to almost every single card ever printed
meager isle
I still don’t understand why centering is a criteria
sleek ferry
yeah i never understood that either tbh
the centering doesn't do anything to the look of a card, at least imo
meager isle
Like a mis centered card can still be perfectly Mint
clever sun
It's a criteria because there is a perfect center for a card. It isn't something you notice often but it goes into the grade. Usually reason why a card goes down to a nine or eight
clever sun
You got like two hours
sleek ferry
last time I said this I went on a huge losing streak
golden plover
Lmao the collectors booster boxes are already down to like $325
They're dropping HARD now
sleek ferry
that's expected though
golden plover
Oh for sure
sleek ferry
it should keep crashing hard for the next 2-3 days
and then go back up a bit and settle on a price
golden plover
$300 is still gonna be too much, but if they settle at like $250 it's maybe worth it
sleek ferry
my guess is 300
golden plover
They will probably settle at $300 tho
clever sun
300 for a limited edition crossover product that is actually collectible
golden plover
$300 is a good price provided you plan to leave it closed
The second you open it, you've gotta get a good box topper and rings/nazguls or your money is gone
sleek ferry
4 more wins, fuck you selesnya toxic
clever sun
You kind of accept that with all Magic product
golden plover
True. Opening boosters usually kills the value
sleek ferry
Alright if I lose with this hand I suck
clever sun
I'm not cracking this product to "hold it for value" I'm doing so for the insane all-foil alt art binder
sleek ferry
Jor Kadeen has been kinda mid btw @twilit canyon
lusty trench
My lgs putting crimson vow boxes on sale for £80 and me knowing damn well I wouldn't buy them for £30
sleek ferry
his best use so far has been baiting removal/counter magic
I'll take crimson vow over midnight hunt any day
crimson vow is the infinitely more interesting set
lusty trench
Midnight has meathook and duals
I'm talking value not how flavourful or good to draft it is
lusty trench
Wedding announcement
lusty trench
lmao
golden plover
Castlevania Sorin is $15
Wedding Announcement is $12
Anything else is less
Yeah $80 is way too much for a box of vow
It's got a pretty okay draft format tbh, but that doesn't save it
twilit canyon
Jor Kadeen has been kinda mid btw <@480437470870110209>
draw cards is good
only need him as a 2 of tho
dense berry
i wonder how many people financially ruined themselves by investing into holding 1st print collector lotr cases
imagine the 10 year ROI if nobody ever pulled the 1/1
sleek ferry
I'm pretty sure not a single person was buying to hold seriously. There was 1 guy that said he spent 17k on lotr collector booster boxes and was bitching he didn't pull the ring
glad peak
Eh as long as they don’t open they will have at least some ROI for the 10 years
There are just enough chase cards and it’s lotr so there’s brand name there
But yeah I have a feeling a ton of people opened their boxes after hearing the 1/1 was found
sleek ferry
the set itself looks fun to open from the videos i've seen
especially if you're an lotr fan
dense berry
i think ranking the options it was
#1 buy nothing fuck sealed product
#2 buy to hold. there is no guarantee the 1/1 ring is ever pulled, with how many factory errors and distribution issues that are inevitable, the ring could well be lost forever. boxes would inflate heavily over time.
#3 buy to open. literally playing the lottery but vastly more expensive and for a smaller jackpot.
trail anvil
Nazgûl is a 10-15 dollar uncommon
is there really that much demand for nazgul?
lusty trench
Just really good card that also gives card advantage in sauron
twilit canyon
anyone playing arena can choose not to get lotr packs and get mom packs
sleek ferry
eh, I already opened more than enough MoM
I still need a lot of stuff from lotr
1 hour left to get 4 wins
twilit canyon
u winnin son
sleek ferry
finished 2 wins away
the control matchup while in my favor, takes forever to play out
Minas Tirith and Mount Doom off the reward packs though 
Current updated list
18 equipment feels like the sweet point so far
trail anvil
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/mtg-arena/mtg-arena-announcements-july-3-2023 those ha7 additions are very much hbrawl additions
cyclonic rift looks horrendous to face with how strong blue already is
at least acidic slime will be fun
zinc shard
lusty trench
THE CHAPTER ICONS
hidden ermine
twilit canyon
https://magic.wizards.com/en/news/mtg-arena/mtg-arena-announcements-july-3-2023 ...
both have potential
acidic slime used to be ubiquitous
worn powerstone powers up the mono-brown ramp
tooth and nail is a for fun card
trail anvil
it means we're gonna get 4 player hbrawl soon clearly 
sleek ferry
Finally my dream of smacking around Komi (and 2 other people) in hbrawl at the same time can come true
If they ever do that though, I’d be down to play for a whole night, I would buy a bottle of wine too
atomic harness
👀
meager isle
4 player with randoms sounds terrible
hidden ermine
So apparently the One Ring was actually opened just by a random guy
That surprises me, I was sure it'd be a big store
waxen timber
The biggest surprise to me was that it was opened in Canada. I really thought that the US would pull it
dense berry
i suppose it always could have been anybody
it almost certainly would be opened by a store
since they open the most product
it could have just as easily ended up in a landfill
or lost in storage
or held in one of the reserve collector booster boxes investors had to keep sealed
zinc shard
Imagine if someone pulled the Ring and just never told anyone.
kept it locked in a box for years while everyone else went mad looking for it
dense berry
there are so many things that could have gone wrong that its kinda miraculous and almost like a fairy tale that it was (allegedly) opened by an individual to whom the money is a "life changing" boon
dense berry
imagine some zoomer opens it on their social media, promptly either gets doxxed or worse volunteers their own info to "buyers" and ends up missing
twilit canyon
hence why it was handled privately even if it was a zoomer
it was likely opened at an lgs and the ppl around the person who did were kind
dense berry
how fortuitous it went to somebody with the mental fortitude to open the card then immediately lawyer up
i know i read a number of posts saying they would keep the card and play it in their edh deck
those are the kind of people who get mugged
you cant actually use a million dollar bill as a game piece
there are a lot of layers to this situation too
like we know the ring has been located for some time now
twilit canyon
oh yeah for sure some ppl cannot be trusted with such things
dense berry
what if the entire bounty was a hoax
twilit canyon
in what way?
dense berry
imagine the power play as a large store who has opened the 1/1
you have a lot of collectors boosters left over
you can afford to let all of it go after inflating the bubble by putting out a massive bounty you will never actually have to pay
twilit canyon
it wouldnt benefit them to have found it or announced it then
u can keep this bubble going for a while longer as ppl keep cracking packs to open it
dense berry
it would benefit them because they set the price at 1 million starting bid
im talking specifically about Dave and Adams
dense berry
so now the bid is higher than it ever should have been
dense berry
now they sell off all their stock and profit + sell to the Spanish 2 million offer
easy peasy money machine
twilit canyon
but revealing the found card doesnt benefit them at all
ever
cus it keeps the illusion of the chase real for longer
dense berry
it does since they have the card which means now that the bid is high they can cash out, potentially twice if they had a ton of sealed collector boosters to offload
the hype they drummed up sent those boxes to the moon
made wotc a killing which is also suspicious
since there are so many disastrous possibilities with something like this its not unfair to say wotc would be almost incentivized to maintain some level of control as to where the card ended up
twilit canyon
all the more reason to never reveal that u did
now u just know it will never be opened
yet the illusion to keep selling boxes is still there
that will be more money for a long time
and then you reveal that it was found
dense berry
all they have to do is wait until their own stock of collectors boosters are offloaded
twilit canyon
and they can still get more
idk
i think its too many loops of logic to jump through to assume it was opened and kept by dave n adams
for what would be, a bit over a week?
they could easily have nabbed more profit still by letting it go longer
dense berry
even if those boxes quintuple in price its probably not nearly as desirable as having 2 million in hand on top of selling your stock for a 200% ROI over the course of weeks
they can just move all their collector boxes as fast as possible knowing as soon as they announce its found the bubble will pop
they never need to worry about restocking
twilit canyon
i mean i guess. im just thinking how much more money they can make long-term by not telling anyone
dense berry
gotta tell people to get the bidding started
are you really gonna sit on a 10 year plan for a return on sealed product while the hype train has people offering millions for a piece of cardboard that costed less than a us penny to produce
twilit canyon
the bubble can still be expanded
not unreasonable to keep selling boxes for at least another few weeks
dense berry
they dont have to restock and they probably couldnt even if they wanted to
the price of the boxes was already to the moon
twilit canyon
maybe? i still think its a lot easier to hold for a bit and wait for a stupid bid offer
dense berry
well thats the thing
2 million is already a stupid offer
this tweet is also ultra suspicious
its a great life changing story, here is a link if you want to outbid us
that reeks of foul play
twilit canyon
as i said tho
wouldnt it be life changing if u suddenly came across at least 1 million?
dense berry
it reminds me of that Retro Gaming scam
of course?
im not disputing that the money is life changing
twilit canyon
i dont recall the retro gaming scam
dense berry
im saying its really fucking weird to link the business email for the card holder asking for bids when the entire goose chase was started by dave and adams in the first place
twilit canyon
i wont count out foul-play but i also think its not out of the question that they also realize they cant scam a customer with a good lawyer
dense berry
hey here is hoping the fairy tale scenario is true
there is a lot of suspicious behavior from dave and adams though, as well as accompanying motive
granite badge
do we know when the 1/1 ring was opened roughly
I assume we can backtrack the psa grading process to some degree
trail anvil
it's decent
golden plover
He's definitely cool
dense berry
I assume we can backtrack the psa grading process to some degree
isnt the PSA grading process quite lengthy?
especially for a million dollar card
set release was on the 23rd but stores were likely opening boxes ahead of time
the bounty was set on the 7th, about 9 days before the pre release of the set
definitely not outside of the time frame when stores can receive their inventory
twilit canyon
aight im putting my ha7 and ea wishlist here for posterity's sake
ea: flipwalkers, delve spells, sylvan caryatid, ravnica charms, bring to light, tasigur
twilit canyon
ha7: bitterblossom, spellstutter sprite, murktide, sfm, sofai and other swords, batterskull, goblin guide, stp (maybe), and the one im no longer sure on but might be cool is fetchlands
oh i forgot about vendillion clique
copper pecan
we're never getting fetchlands
twilit canyon
its getting unlikely yes
at least not legal for historic
i saw thoughtcast and kappa canoneer as well as arcbound ravager (my sister dmed me her wish list too lol)
golden plover
They've outright said they consider fetches one of the biggest mistakes in the game
They're probably not gonna put them into any formats they're not in
clever sun
Yeah I also don't think we need the fetch lands
and it saves us from needing to add stuff like Blood Moon or B2B to keep them in check
dense berry
watch them print tri lands that enter untapped if you pay 1 life but they dont have basic land types so theyre not strictly better than shocks or duals
clever sun
I think they'd be too good still
lusty trench
Who would win, 4 fetchlands or 4 crisp $20 bills
glad peak
yeah, those would be too good, look at fastlands still being played in slower formats where they have an objective disadvantage compared to faster formats
they're usually played alongside shocks but with 3 colors and no downside other than not being able to be fetched, i dont see why not more
trail anvil
@twilit canyon do you have any resources for alchemy meta?
twilit canyon
mtgazone
trail anvil
lotr makes me wanna try some, especially with remand in white
twilit canyon
and mtgmelee
also
tho
take any standard deck
thats it
add some alchemy exclusives
trail anvil
checking melee rn and it's blank 
trail anvil
I figured it had enough to change it notably, like the jund ramp cards
and that monowhite 1 drop, and callix
wait where's azorius 
dense berry
rakdos seems good huh
twilit canyon
rakdos is top tier since they still have fable + meathook
and they get crucias
your best bet is grixis midrange though for sure
trail anvil
wait grixis really is just standard grixis with crucias
twilit canyon
pre-bans
trail anvil
fuck this is fun lmao
sleek ferry
rakdos is top tier since they still have fable + meathook
No fable or meathook rebalance?
copper pecan
i'm so glad more people are finally giving alchemy a chance
the format is super fun
clever sun
REAL
It is just better standard right now
I've been having fun with totally off-meta things too
lusty trench
I literally don't know anyone that plays standard anymore
I'm glad people are having fun with alchemy, I have my own reservations about it but new formats always good
sleek ferry
What do you think of white Frodo in boros equipment @twilit canyon
sleek ferry
Yeah, just looking at my options in alchemy atm
It’s really just the 4 drop tbh
That 4 drop is a bomb
Also, I realized, siding in the nahiri planeswalker vs control makes that matchup even better for you
Also gives you much needed gy recursion that you otherwise don’t have
lusty trench
Me looking at all the fellowships cards and realising Sam is the one who got out the best
deserved Sam is the goat
sleek ferry
Unless you play the bad [[denitha new hope]]
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sleek ferry
[[danitha benalia’s hope]]
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sleek ferry
They could have easily made her a 3 drop 2/3
lusty trench
I think gimili was absolutely robbed these sets, Legolas would also be up there if the commander deck one wasn't mid
lusty trench
Shire is decent, mines is good, rivendel is good, bala dur is an absolute pain in my ass in limited, and minas tirith is very good
sleek ferry
The one that conjures everything good from its spellbook
lusty trench
And mount doom is a free dual
sleek ferry
Mount doom is actually so beautiful
If nothing else I might see if I get foil extended art versions of all the legendary lands
dense berry
now to take bets as to whether mount doom cycle or burnwillows cycle gets made first
twilit canyon
probs mt doom cycle
theres a lot less broken things to do with it compared to a burnwillows
cus every red burnwillows enables p fire
dense berry
instead of mt doom can we get mf doom
clever sun
Finally got around to doing something I have been wanting to for a while
Actual factual Gandalf Control
Also been trying out a Jund Shadow deck
It is kinda hot NGL
Mind Spike, Shadowheart
The big issue was always in the fact that you could never truly splash
But with Mana Confluence we can
twilit canyon
uge
dense berry
18 is really good
i was able to hold #100-150ish for about 10 games or so when i played on my friend's account
i definitely dont have the meta knowledge though
hard orchid
it is me, the person turning yugioh cards into magic cards
dense berry
indeed
hard orchid
i could talk about some of my old starter decks i've made
twilit canyon
oh i had something done for sky strikers i was brainstorming b4 i got busy
tutor for specific support is not really explored in mtg which i though could open up an interesting design space
hard orchid
now, as a person who grew up with yugioh world championship 2011, what really terrible archetype do you think i fell in love with?
That's right. koaki meiru
waxen timber
Do you have the koaki meirus with abilities such as return it to the hand unless you remove a counter?
hard orchid
no. because i like making cards which are fun and enjoyable to play with
meet the bread and butter of this agressive RW deck
hard orchid
it already plays super well at 2
1 would be too good/too fast
the two potential commanders of this deck, if you decide to go that route. (The deck is normally a 60 card constructed deck, with power level aimed at standard)
waxen timber
Isn't the point of koaki meiru to have really good monsters that are worse because of the restrictions?
hidden ermine
Arguably yes
But also I can tell you, at 2 in standard Im not sure it would see play
hard orchid
debatably yes. but they are not fun to play
hidden ermine
Standards kinda high power nowadays
hard orchid
dang
hidden ermine
I think Caster or Misty can get you a more detailed rundown though
hard orchid
because i'm being a bit more freeform with cards/mechanics, i can do designs like this which i think are cute. you get a "core" for "free" in that it trains your smaller units up.
waxen timber
[[Reinforced ronin]] is a card people seem to enjoy playing despite having a downside
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Artifact Creature — Human Samurai
Haste
At the beginning of your end step, return Reinforced Ronin to its owner's hand.
Channel — 
, Discard Reinforced Ronin: Draw a card.
2/2
hard orchid
sure, but reinforced ronin isn't a [[mindless null]]
hidden ermine
I mean mindless null is draft chaff
hard orchid
there are some really old magic cards which are just bad no matter how you slice it. Ronin has a niche. and in the worst case you can channel it to get rid of it. i want the cards i make to be fun to play. not "literal translations"
hard orchid
I mean mindless null is draft chaff
correct
oh, i should have brought up wood elemental
but regardless.
hidden ermine
But tbh Wuh is right
If youre gonna do Koa'ki Meiru, why not translate their gimmick?
[[Rotting Regisaur]]
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hard orchid
because their gimic is bad?
hidden ermine
Cards with downsides have seen play and been popular
hard orchid
sure. but you can't make an entire deck out of it
their gimic is bad, and not fun to play with. like...i don't know what else to tell you. I want to make cards which are fun to play with.
Several of the Koaki cards get effects when you put counters on them. In yugioh koakis need cores to turn on. In mtg, i made it so that making cores and using cores tie together, and helps progress your game plan. Fulfilling the lore(?) of the yugioh cards in a more effective way.
copper pecan
1 should be enough
at one point in crimson vow's design blood tokens were "1, tap, sac: put a +1/+1 counter on a creature you control at sorcery speed" and they came to the conclusion that it was way too strong for limited
hard orchid
neat!
dense berry
meanwhile they print nearly strictly better baneslayer angels into rare slot
wotc and their limited design back at it again
hard orchid
full card list for this archtype:
https://www.planesculptors.net/set/koaki-meiru#cards
copper pecan
meanwhile they print nearly strictly better baneslayer angels into rare slot
there's a pretty big gap between what's acceptable at rare on a single card and what's acceptable as an entire set mechanic
dense berry
meanwhile, incubate
hidden ermine
at one point in crimson vow's design blood tokens were "1, tap, sac: put a +1/+1...
Oh yeah in limited I can see that
But you can print these in an aftermath-style set
hard orchid
an example of a card i made with the goal of "make cards less able to shoot you in the foot
yugioh cards tend to lean blue and/or black in general. this one has been fun for me. half the people saying it's not good enough and half the people saying it's OP
hidden ermine
Id lean more towards the former
[[Night's whisper]] exists and its usually just fine
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hard orchid
sure. but night's whisper is black
hidden ermine
Which doesnt get straight up good draw spells the way blue does
Well, not at the same rate at least
hard orchid
correct
copper pecan
i've seen people say that blue night's whisper would have to be banned in legacy but idk how true that is
hard orchid
blue has only recently started getting "draw two"s at 2-ish mana recently. as far as i know
i'm pretty proud of how this one turned out
hard orchid
i put it around the same level as farseek. it's not good to keep making rampant growths, but it's been done
and putting it at three mana is a lot less good
hard orchid
i really like turning old bad cards into "playable" cards. they might not be compettively viable, but i'd like them to be worth consideration
hidden ermine
Hm, Tryce is interesting
hard orchid
thank
zinc shard
I'd love to see Wizards try to make the actual Small World work in MTG
twilit canyon
coming back to that a bit. i think i did a decent job of translating strikers into mtg
i thought about giving them flying, but i think they would be too good if they all had natural evasion
sudden lava
why isnt she blue?
twilit canyon
being unable to cast the suits forcing u to run less than 4 lest u draw them
then also making u want each of them to dei
*di
*die
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hidden ermine
Oh I mean
twilit canyon
[[ukkima, stalking shadow]]
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hidden ermine
See itself leave the attlefield for its graveyard effect
Im trying to think if Raye goes infinite by herself
hidden ermine
I meant as in
twilit canyon
opponent needs to remove the pilot
twilit canyon
she sacks herself
twilit canyon
the 1st effect only checks if an opponent kills a pilot
hidden ermine
But Im not 100% because MTG rulings are weird
Oh yeah
I mean as in
If the opponent destroys raye
Can she come back immediately off of her own destruction
hidden ermine
With 2 Raye yeah
twilit canyon
this was intentional
hidden ermine
Does it work with 1 Raye?
twilit canyon
if an opponent blows her up yes
hidden ermine
Sorry, I wasnt very clear when explaining my rules question
hidden ermine
So she is basically an infinite blocker/a unit with indestructible?
twilit canyon
she cant block infinitely
hidden ermine
Would basically mean she'd have to be ... legacy only?
hidden ermine
Im trying to think if that would be ok in modern
twilit canyon
if opponent exiles her?
tough luck
you need a 2nd raye
forgot the reveal it part
but yea
hidden ermine
Oh are these cards deliberately tuned more towards Legacy then?
twilit canyon
yes
twilit canyon
they are meant to work in legacy/commander
hidden ermine
Brainstorm lets you put the bricks back
And exiling removal is widely available there
twilit canyon
its a wurg deck atm unless i can come up with an easy way to implement roze and zeke
i did make 2 for fun type cards though
hidden ermine
I dont think Zeke makes sense without link summoning being a thing
twilit canyon
hidden ermine
Why is Hercules base not an equipment?
twilit canyon
i thought about it
but it is literally a vehicle
i actually had a tough time balancing these
and i still think they miss the mark
jamming waves feels like a counter spell
but if i had a counter spell also blow up say an esper sentinel or kappa cannoneer
even just small-enough artifacts/enchants or small creatures
delver can absolutely splash
hidden ermine
Doesnt the restriction prevent that?
Anyway I feel like for sorceries these might be a tad on the weaker side?
twilit canyon
yeah
they are
again
intentional bc i just had no idea how id balance them
if afterburners a 1 mana deal 3 that can also blow up an artifact/enchantment?
is jamming waves a 1 mana shatter/disenchant that then deals damage to a creature?
hidden ermine
With as heavy as the restriction is
twilit canyon
i allowed this and shark cannon to be powerful tho
hidden ermine
I wanna say that you can probably push it further than 1 mana deal 3
twilit canyon
twilit canyon
in legacy you can with petal or ancient tomb
hidden ermine
Surprised Widow Anchor isnt an act of treason effect
hidden ermine
With petal I guess you could cast them on turn 2, yeah
twilit canyon
also idt a deck like this should be ruthlessly efficient
you are already cheating on mana by cheating in pilots
you only need to resolve raye
twilit canyon
everything else just keeps grabbing advantage
hidden ermine
What benefit does putting the creature on your side have without link summoning?
twilit canyon
oh anchor. similar deal since it lasts until end of next turn
so u can steal em on their turn
they play a blocker, take it, swing both
hidden ermine
Uh
I dont believe you can swing with a creature yo utake with widow anchor unless it has haste
hidden ermine
Yeah thats not the problem
hidden ermine
Summoning sickness requires you to have controlled the creature since your last turn
Stealing on the opponents turn means you didnt control it since your last turn
So it should remain summoning sick
twilit canyon
im p sure archmage's charm has let me swing an opponent's creature that i steal on their turn that is summon sick
hidden ermine
302.6.: A creature's activated ability with the tap symbol or the untap symbol in its activation cost can't be activated unless the creature has been under its controller's control continuously since their most recent turn began. A creature can't attack unless it has been under its controller's control continuously since their most recent turn began. This rule is informally called the "summoning sickness" rule.
Relevant rule
Unless Im misreading it, no you cant
twilit canyon
hmmmmm i gotta figure this out
if so then id give widow anchor haste
or make it a permanent steal until a pilot dies
hidden ermine
Well, thats why I said Act of Treason
Not sure thatd be fine at 1 mana though then
Would have to be 2, which hurts the default case
twilit canyon
asked in the official wotc discord
scenario being
i cast soul-scar mage
opponent on my end step casts archmage's charm taking control of ssm
aight
cool
so
got a verdict on the situation
so long as you control the creature at the beginning of your turn
you being the current owner
it loses summoning sickness
twilit canyon
by the way u explained it
creatures wouldnt lose summoning sickness until the turn after that
hidden ermine
Yeah the way I thought it worked from reading it is that you had to control it since last turn wihout it being taken
And that every time it switched sides, summoning sickness reset
Guess I was wrong on that
That works then
sleek ferry
Turn 16
hidden ermine
Alright then
hard orchid
i'm not a fan of these sky striker cards in general.
- The formatting on a lot of the cards bothers me (such as herculese base)
- I'm personally not a fan of cards which are "literal translations" like many of these are, but that's personal preference.
From a gameplay perspective, some of these cards need a tune up.
For Raye, i'm 90% sure that mtg can't check "card and effect" sources the way yugioh can. You could do something like "when another pilot you control dies, if ~ is in your graveyard, return her to the battlefield tapped" Then you can skip on the flash (which would normally have to be another line seperate from haste.)
For engage, this wording is how the card works in yugioh, but it's a bit too much out of the norm for my tastes.
Hercules base base technically needs tribal to be a pilot.
I don't know what crew(?) ability is, since it runs off screen, but 4 colors is a pretty steep cost. for not a whole lot of upside in terms of stats/effects
vector blast: Not a fan of the needing a pilot to cast, personally. Also: legendary sorceries require you to have a legendary creature/planeswalker to cast them. which you may not have been aware of.
I think the mill should probably be higher? or have more effect when you miss on the "3 pilots in grave" because 4 mana mill 2 isn't worth it.
You also get into some weirdness with targeting in the middle of a spell. You could do something like
"each player mills two cards. When you do, shuffle X target nonland* permanent into their owner's library, where X is the number of pilot <instant and/or sorcery> cards in your graveyard.
"When you do" lets this actually declare targets in magic's rule system. You would say "instant and/or sorcery cards" if you want just the "Spell" cards. you could also say "cards" by itself to include the creature cards.
I'd rather return cards to hand instead of deck, and for this to be an instant, but i see what it's trying to do.
twilit canyon
all of this is intentional with vector blast
stops u from using it with just hornet drones
its a late game timmy card
i put flash with haste to save room and it ended up not mattering
as for gameplay they are also intentionally not super powerful
putting them into the context of legacy with force of will
hard orchid
jamming waves probably needs green. for both after burners and jamming waves they'd need some more reworking, but i'm not sure how at this moment. in magic you have to declare all targets at the time of casting the spell. and i don't remember how to word that poperly. but i'm 90% sure the "then, if you have..." doesn't work the way you want.
Widow anchor is maybe more white(?) white red? in terms of effect. i think. notably: losing abilities in mtg doesn't negate effects like it does in yugioh.
shark cannon is cool. i think it would need to cost a bit more, but i like it. (outside of the general pilot restrictions)
hard orchid
putting them into the context of legacy with force of will
you can aim cards for formats other than legacy, you know.
twilit canyon
yea but i didnt want to
widow anchor is also mirroring 2 blue cards
[[dress down]]
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twilit canyon
and your every day [[threads of disloyalty]] effect
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hard orchid
but as is, i don't think these would even see play in limited/casual constructed. mtg is too...inconsistent to work with "needing to draw a starter"
twilit canyon
yea thats why raye is a 4 of + engage is free to cast with no creature
hidden ermine
Plus its not like Legacy lacks card selection
twilit canyon
engage + raye is 8 copies of the effect + brainstorm + ponder
this is entirely built to work in legacy
hard orchid
but like...why?
hard orchid
[trying to articulate my thought]
twilit canyon
its a format where the feel of striker can be kept
where a format like modern would have an aneurysm to a near unkillable 2 drop that rapidly amasses card advantage and punishes removal
hard orchid
i don't really get why you'd add extra hampering/restrictions to the cards. the only deck that can play these cards is a dedicated sky striker deck. there is no way to experiment/make use of them unless you open ray/engage/drones. or spend some number of turns fishing for them. it's like...
why build cards which are going to force you to take some number of turns off in a format where taking turns off is a bad idea?
twilit canyon
that was entirely the reason
i made them
a dedicated striker deck
i didnt wanna make a bunch of generic cards
hard orchid
ah well. difference in philosophy i guess
twilit canyon
this is also a format with daze, fow, and wasteland
u can absolutely waste turns to get there
thats part of the basis of delver
hard orchid
i'll take your word for it
hidden ermine
I mean you cant really make Striker cards non-parasitic
Without breaking the format theyre in
hard orchid
sure you can
twilit canyon
almost every vintage combo deck in black is 100% on petition
hard orchid
interesting
twilit canyon
every once in a while, petition shows up and breaks legacy too
hidden ermine
But yeah I think the design is fine, though there are some rule concerns I think make sense
I am not sure magic can do "by an opponents card"
hard orchid
i'm 90% certain it can't
twilit canyon
that was my concern when i 1st made em
hidden ermine
I kinda missed that on first reading, but that isnt something I believe magic has
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hard orchid
ye olde meme "damage doesn't kill creatures, state based actions do"
twilit canyon
the big question is regarding if the cards can actually check if an opponent killed it
[[battle mammoth]]
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Creature — Elephant
Trample
Whenever a permanent you control becomes the target of a spell or ability an opponent controls, you may draw a card.
Foretell (During your turn, you may pay and exile this card from your hand face down. Cast it on a later turn for its foretell cost.)
6/5
hard orchid
there is also issues with the timing of trying to resolve spells, mentioned above
twilit canyon
the timing restrictions are fine
the concern is just if they are worth using at all
hard orchid
you can determine targeting, sure. but outside of [[equinox]] the rules don't support it. and equinox is a medium sized rules headache
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Enchantment — Aura
Enchant land
Enchanted land has "
: Counter target spell if it would destroy a land you control."
hidden ermine
Uh
twilit canyon
but when i made em originally
hidden ermine
Oh how about this wording
twilit canyon
i was mostly just worried about em being too generic
hidden ermine
"If Raye leaves the battlefield, if she was targetted or dealt damage by a spell or creature an opponent controls this turn, [insert revive effect]"
twilit canyon
i put the cast
so that it would create a stop-gap of her being able to be countered on her way out
but coming back is probably cleaner
hidden ermine
That sadly doesnt make her revive on boardwipes
But its at least magic wording
Idk how to include boardwipes
hard orchid
"When ~ dies, if she was targeted or dealt damage by a spell or ability an opponent controls this turn, <effect>" but that's a whole lot of words. and you could probably just use "when ~ dies" instead. let people use sac outlets.
hidden ermine
Uh
Thats why it says an opponent controls
Oh you meant thieves suggestion
Yeah infinite sack outlet break that
hard orchid
i mean...you would give it a death effect which doesn't go infinite -3-
but i would assume that would be too far from the original design for your tastes
ray W
legendary creature - human soldier
When a pilot you control dies, return ~ from your graveyard to your hand/the battlefield.
2/1