Wasn’t there a snap in the trailer
#Fighting Game Chat
worthy crystal
late frost
also if your opponent has built a one point-three assist team
forcing in one of the assists can collapse their team structure
vivid furnace
if theres snap it means you actually have to learn all 4 characters
instead of going '
just one character for me, ty'
which ruins the appeal of 1 char w/ 3 assists to me
round creek
vivid furnace
active tag or w/e its called
i feel like its gonna be a weird mix between mortal kombat and umvc3
late frost
well
it would be novel
hope it works out for them
mellow palm
i feel like its gonna be a weird mix between mortal kombat and umvc3
It looks more like KI than MK
vivid furnace
It looks more like KI than MK
ki n mk both look similar to me ig
mellow palm
Xbox exclusive is sadge but ig they needed some answer to tokon
vivid furnace
ahhh
faint ice
vivid furnace
oh its ps5 too nvm
honestly if there's a demo i might check it out but i doubt i'll play it
mellow palm
Uh did I miss something
faint ice
xbox got to reveal it
late frost
a fg can't be xbox exclusive
Shoutouts the 360/4 gen where games ran better on XBOX
late frost
well known XBOX-only platform
XBOX PC
faint ice
yt trailers show all the platforms
vivid furnace
no?
faint ice
Shoutouts the 360/4 gen where games ran better on XBOX
might still be the case now, just that sony owns evo so we cant prove it 
mellow palm
If it comes out on ps5 maybe I’ll pick it up
vivid furnace
both the trailer on ign and xbox's page show it only as xbox, 'xbox pc 
' and xbox cloud
mellow palm
If it doesn’t I probably won’t
faint ice
vivid furnace
someone needs to talk to ign n xbox then, get them to do the right trailer
would be absolutely hilarious if microsoft shot themself in the foot that hard though
late frost
Well known tactic of advertising competing platforms during your showcase
vivid furnace
Well known tactic of advertising competing platforms during your showcase
i feel like not putting the other, very viable platforms you're releasing a game on in the trailer is a bad idea, period
like i get what you're saying
dont get me wrong
but doing that just makes it needlessly confusing for no benefit
faint ice
I think it's alright esp since gameshow "viewers" are a tier above average consumer imo
someone will find out about this game a week from now scrolling their ig reels and google when is it out
worthy crystal
instead of going '<a:gigachadani:1097246077557678121> just one character for me,...
Do we understand what this part meant in the interview
I was under the impression it was gonna be a literal option to play like juggernaut or whatever that thing is called in 2xko
faint ice
I was under the impression it was gonna be a literal option to play like juggern...
It could be
They didn't give specifics but it's likely
vivid furnace
proof that tong 'tampaneversleeps' lee does, in fact, sleep
late frost
Interview with Rip, Invincible VS combat designer
https://www.twitch.tv/videos/2480530876?t=05h17m07s
- Active tag is in the game
- Emphasis on two-way interactions; there is a combo breaker like mechanic when it comes to assists
- Invincible VS will have an original story
- Rollback (done by the same people(?)/person(?) that did KI 2013) and crossplay are confirmed
- No word if the game will be at EVO, but mentioned that the game has been play tested by a lot of "top players and content creators" already```
lunar depot
So, what do we think of the upcoming new SF6 characters?
||Alex, C. Viper, Ingrid, Sagat||
teal pebble
Wait do you need to spoilr that?
late frost
I think it's fine to speak openly at this point
It was seen in a leak previously
But it was announced
I'd say I'm most excited for Sagat and C. Viper this season.
lunar depot
it's courtesy, but... I see. Noted.
Me personally, Ingrid was a curveball.
I don't follow SF stuff that hard, so I don't usually know about any leaked stuff.
teal pebble
everyone was confused about ingrid
anyway glad to see
C viper and Sagat back
thought im not intrested into playing them but just glad to have around
lunar depot
I wonder if Sean or his sister will become playable?
lunar depot
What do you mean?
worthy crystal
Viper was a demonic character in sf4
lunar depot
demonic as in very strong?
worthy crystal
Her whole gimmick was just incredibly unenjoyable to play against and she was a very disliked character
worthy crystal
I’m pretty sure they nerfed her in ultra and she wasn’t as good but people still hated her
lunar depot
Hm... i wonder whose team she's on now.
she probably will be a double agent pretending to be on JP's team, I guess?
worthy crystal
But there’s a good chance they just give her a whole new gimmick/identity gameplay wise
mellow palm
She was kinda goofy in marvel tho
worthy crystal
But there’s a good chance they just give her a whole new gimmick/identity gamepl...
They’ve done this with ed very notably, and Elena to a lesser extent
mellow palm
Sf4 Elena was a menace yea
worthy crystal
Very controversial characters with hard-to-translate identities/anti-gameplay identities generally get makeovers
Rashid also is a very different character
lunar depot
So... imagine a character from SF EX shows up in 6.
worthy crystal
If they put one more fucking grappler in this game god help me
2 is far more than enough
mellow palm
Nah if I had to guess if they put 1 more from 4
It would probably be like
Rose or Gen
Maybe feilong
worthy crystal
Rose was in v bro
If they put in another 4 original/ someone who skipped 5 I hope we get decapre
cosmic forge
mellow palm
Nah catch me hitting this battle beast chain grab
vivid furnace
battle beast is gonna be ignorant af
armor on everything, unreactable command grabs, the only downside to him is he refuses to use any projectiles
late frost
Got My Hero One's Justice 2 on a sale
tried it last night
...did not vibe with it lamo
worthy crystal
It’s an arena fighter isn’t it
late frost
ye
I'll look up some guides to figure out the flow more
Maybe I'll like it more with some reps
Also reinstalled DBFZ
worthy crystal
Run the set…
worthy crystal
I'll look up some guides to figure out the flow more
Maybe I'll like it more wit...
Don’t try to force yourself to enjoy it
Arena fighters have a stigma for a reason
late frost
I'm getting into MHA
That's why I bought it
Also I enjoy Ninja Storm every now and then
paper notch
wicked quarry
Who is, still Tager?
worthy crystal
Tager hasn’t been bottom one since ct holy
Discourse normally winds up around Celica/Noel
Opinions are slightly up on bullet but towito might also just be skill gapping everyone
wicked quarry
Huh
worthy crystal
Imo celica is just an incredibly mediocre character with no real merit to actually play her
wicked quarry
I wasnt sure if Noel was still low-tier
worthy crystal
Besides having a good anti air I guess
Noel was good for one whole game cycle and then they annihilated her off the face of the earth
Nerfed a low mid tier character in bbcp into bottom tier territory in bbcf
worthy crystal
No actually fuck that character
Terumi didn’t get nerfed into cf wdym
He’s actually bottom tier in that game and he’s like bad but def a lot better than that
Active flow/ the changes to OD mechanics are really really good for him, the overhead they gave him gives him real mix
Etc
balmy parrot
Discourse normally winds up around Celica/Noel
Celica has results though
worthy crystal
Literally every character in the game has results
Cf power level is high every character can and will rob you
Bottom 1 in this game is still pretty fine
balmy parrot
yeah but I think Terumi has gotta be worse
worthy crystal
Why exactly
He has better offense, similar and more consistent reward, arguably better neutral, similar defense, better snowballing and better comeback potential
Celicas kit literally punishes you for winning
And isn’t good at reversing a losing situation
austere garnet
Seems like the invincible fighting game isn’t using motion inputs this is very exciting and I hope fighting games keep getting rid of these
haughty zodiac
I thought it was NRS at first
def gave vibes of them especially with the "fight" announcer
haughty zodiac
Seems like the invincible fighting game isn’t using motion inputs this is very e...
i like how granblue versus does it where there's an option to use simple inputs but its less rewarding for doing the simple input (combos its different though i prefer if it applied there) so then when you're trying to do stuff like a DP quickly you can take that option but weaker hit
vivid furnace
Seems like the invincible fighting game isn’t using motion inputs this is very e...
i dont!
if a game doesnt have motion inputs i dont pick it up, simple as
worthy crystal
i like how granblue versus does it where there's an option to use simple inputs ...
Frankly I think they should’ve kept it how it was in vanilla granblue because 99% of times it will always just be better to use simple inputs for stuff like DPs
austere garnet
i like how granblue versus does it where there's an option to use simple inputs ...
I don’t think the modern control system should have any punishment on the player
shrewd furnace
Unless you balance the game around it, it should
It’s just a couple tweaks here and there but in total should just be different properties
Like you can’t just give sonic boom on 1 button as it is
worthy crystal
I don’t think the modern control system should have any punishment on the player
If you have both in the game (which is a good thing to do) you should always balance around the fact that simple input specials are inherently stronger with no balancing system
Sometimes the solution is very simple such as GBVS
Sometimes it’s a much more complex solution like modern in sf
Modern chun I think is a very very good example of how to balance motion inputs
She can do bird or fireball while walking which is insane for that character, but she physically cannot do certain moves that are good for her kit
haughty zodiac
Frankly I think they should’ve kept it how it was in vanilla granblue because 99...
vanilla was motion only?
haughty zodiac
Sometimes the solution is very simple such as GBVS
i find it goofy that it was designed so that special cancels did not have the reduction even though mid combo specials are not as hard to do usually... proceeds to fuck over links though so avatar belial requires you to use motion inputs for combos unlike other characters
haughty zodiac
I don’t think the modern control system should have any punishment on the player
it absolutely should because of DP's, charge and super inputs
since those are much harder to do so there's a big disparity compared to other specials and especially with charge inputs are designed so the special is debilitated outside just being hard to perform
but yeah granblue was stupid for the reduction not applying for special cancels and proceeds to meme on links
worthy crystal
vanilla was motion only?
Simple input affected cooldown too
haughty zodiac
oh that's wild
tbh i like that for DP's because people will just smack their head on the controller anytime they feel threatened
worthy crystal
It was prob the most unpopular change they made before ppl saw 66l
haughty zodiac
i played beelze at first who like... doesn't really encourage using 66l much... then i played luci and omfg i spammed that shit
late frost
shrewd furnace
Knowing that your opponent is good enough to do the right thing but also good enough to know when to do the “wrong” thing and counter your counterplay is one of the coolest parts about high level fighting games 
late frost
MHOJ2 update
gotten into a groove
enjoying the game more now that I feel somewhat competent at it
late frost
Street Fighter 6 not letting me connect
is it down for anyone else
doesn't seem to be my VPN, either (whew)
faint ice
Street Fighter 6 not letting me connect
is it down for anyone else
this was cloud servers everywhere
late frost
Apparently it was a Google Cloud issue
late frost
faint ice
gaming
late frost
stoic gazelle
its always a treat watching dormamu
vivid furnace
dormammu my goat
late frost
worthy crystal
He’s just so zucking based
small furnace
she's gay?
teal pebble
X
worthy crystal
Tager player, hold deez
faint ice
<@199566048750469120> why am I nostalgic for sfv rn
The sequences were cold and it had Kolin
worthy crystal
Kolin and Karin and Menat and Laura and Zeku
Necali looked really cool but was kind of boring
faint ice
There's a kind of crunchiness it had that 6 lacks and I don't mean crush counter
worthy crystal
I would actually be pretty hype to get necali in sf6 to see what they do with him
worthy crystal
There's a kind of crunchiness it had that 6 lacks and I don't mean crush counter
Everything had more hitstop
Which made it feel much more satisfying
faint ice
Look at a ryu bnb post s3
worthy crystal
But also was part of what defined the games neutral (single hit confirms) that was considered problematic
worthy crystal
Kolin and Karin and Menat and Laura and Zeku
And urien and Nash and g and Vega and ibuki
Man it’s crazy how good the sfv roster was and they decided to give us fucking ed
And pull INGRID FROM THE ETHER
faint ice
Man it’s crazy how good the sfv roster was and they decided to give us fucking e...
We don't hate 6 ed actual gold star conversion
I don't hate the dlc
worthy crystal
Ed is cool in 6 but like
worthy crystal
Imagine if instead of giving a glow up to a character everyone hated
They breathed new life into an already popular character
faint ice
Where is Cody? Why is Honda on the screen
late frost
Cody is literally busy being mayor
worthy crystal
It's these OLD MEN
I wouldn’t complain if we got another 3s roster
late frost
He's da new mayer of erf
worthy crystal
Of like returning the extreme core roster and then full newcomers
late frost
Anyway uh
Laura and Makoto next season trust
worthy crystal
I just wish we didn’t waste 2 slots on crossovers last season
When sf already has such a huge legacy roster that people want
late frost
They gotta figure out how to make more characters per season
World Tour is omegacool but it's consequences have been devastating
faint ice
I feel like ingrid might doom karin
faint ice
4 a season is so low
worthy crystal
Ingrid was in one fake fighting game they can make her do whatever they want
late frost
They just look kinda similar
worthy crystal
4 a season has been standard for fighting games but sf6 has just a very bad release cycle for the characters
late frost
Ingrid was a zoner/defensive character from what I understand
worthy crystal
She had a whack fireball a whack parry and a whack tatsu
late frost
Tbh Cammy is closer in function to Karin than Ingrid is
worthy crystal
But again that game is so apocryphal and old and disliked that they could probably completely ignore it and see no backlash
late frost
If they release Karin they want Punk to win another evo
worthy crystal
I mean
In a very strange way
Cammy and Karin were kind of 2 halves of yun
Yun was def the closest analogue to that character in 3s
Aggressive mid-close range divekick character with multiple forward advancing special moves and easy ways to vary approach options
Karin is much more defensive obv but idk
She even has a Walmart genei Jin
late frost
I think my new pet wish is
Ibuki
And they build on her windmill shuriken V-Trigger from SFV
worthy crystal
Kolin was my baby in sfv so I always want her back
My worry is that it’s very hard to translate sfv originals who were reliant on the vt system as part of their kits
Rashid is a very diff character and Ed might as well be a new one
I think more gimmick oriented characters would be cool though which is why I want menat 
worthy crystal
She had drive rush before it was cool
Sigh
The character I’m most curious abt how they’d translate is def urien though
There is no shot they’d full send aegis reflector
worthy crystal
They already made 2 diff aegis supers in this game 
I think at the end of the day urien just won’t be in
But it’s a little sad he’s very cool
The only characters I like don’t want to see back ever are like…
shrewd furnace
they have 2 diff aegis supers but do they have double reflector? i think not 
worthy crystal
Falke , birdy/abby , and oro 
boreal hound
Why not Oro actually?
faint ice
Oro was cool in sfv imo, may not be cake's cup of tea
worthy crystal
Oros kit itself is fine but tengu stones is a mistake super and they always “accidentally” make him into a super unfun to play against asshole
He did unblockable into stun into unblockable in 3s and he just randomly killed uou for breathing in sfv
- oro players are really annoying
worthy crystal
Been having fun with gbvsr again, versusia is so sick now that they made her broken @faint ice
austere garnet
Only 2 more months for the goat Wilnas probably 🙏
cosmic forge
she's gay?
very late replay but iirc sadako is canonically intersex
late frost
leak discussion
||allegedly, the One's Justice 2 sequel is upcoming. It's gonna be titled "All's Justice"||
vivid furnace
finally getting neo's j.b dl j.bb loops down, though im still not sure why it can sideswitch or how to manipulate the sideswitches
added astral finish cos its a good one
austere garnet
https://x.com/ARCSY_PR/status/1937043206925111454?t=fsMFGgB4TWgX_5h3MqRh-w&s=19
So so so hype
austere garnet
9 pm est ig
Yeah 9 pm
Hopefully Lucy/ranked release date and more marvel token character reveals and maybe a better idea of when that’ll release
A marvel token release date in January 
Oh and Wilnas I forgot about my goat
Give Wilnas release date and gameplay please 
faint ice
I'm so curious on what this could be
Alongside Tokon
Another BB / GG
Another licensed game
Or a whole new IP
Place your bets
worthy crystal
Don’t get your hopes up
balmy parrot
faint ice
Persona 5 Arena
late frost
austere garnet
Another tag fighter announced 
sage cedar
tag fighters are coming back in full force I see
vapid lake
Oh hey, I actually know the source material
gaunt cloud
Isnt saturday am that one old ass sonic cartoon?
sage cedar
yup that's what they called it separate it from that other Sonic cartoon
vivid furnace
https://x.com/ARCSY_PR/status/1937043206925111454?t=fsMFGgB4TWgX_5h3MqRh-w&s=19
my bet is tokon stuff, maybe a ggst reveal for next season, but I'd also love to see dbfz 2
late frost
I'm skeptical about DBFZ 2
Two franchise tag games from the same company in the same timeframe?
vapid lake
Isnt saturday am that one old ass sonic cartoon?
Yes, but this one is an international western "manga" magazine, with Clock Striker (the one in this image) being their most popular one
I mostly remember it because ofc racists were mad at it existing
It's kind of insane that a relatively obscure indie publisher is getting a game
maybe we can get a massiveverse tag fighter next. It's the closest I'll get to a good toku fighting game
vivid furnace
I'm skeptical about DBFZ 2
Two franchise tag games from the same company in the ...
i mean my other pipe dream is unironically bbtag 2 with a few more rwby characters
mainly because any fg i get to play the blorbo in is a good fg
vapid lake
i mean my other pipe dream is unironically bbtag 2 with a few more rwby characte...
you just want to main neopolitan
balmy parrot
gaunt cloud
Uncompletable sheet
worthy crystal
The first bingo sheet to have 0 filled squares
Actually not true Mori will get eaten by a crocodile
vivid furnace
i dont want wall break but i think stage transitions based off of the total health pool could be cool
like in dbfz if you kill an opponent with a smash attack in the right direction
but also id be happy to just keep it more like, well, mahvel
faint ice
but that's what sony's straight up working not to do
at first it was how can they do mahvel their way
then they were told no, start from the ground up
at least from the interview's perspective
late frost
late frost
These characters will be getting outfits for sale alongside the Sagat update
wicked quarry
Should've been Marissa over the poison lady tbh
Also wtf is going on with Lukes Popeye arms?
late frost
No Mai or Juri swimsuit is a surprising decision to not print (as much) money
shrewd furnace
cammy's is pretty cool, didn't expect the different swimsuit tan
dreamy mason
https://fixupx.com/StreetFighter/status/1938359728704266643
https://fixupx.com/S...
I’m finished
shrewd furnace
you've finished? 
teal pebble
No Mai or Juri swimsuit is a surprising decision to not print (as much) money
Mai did just get a skin so another one would have felt too soon
vivid furnace
where is the akuma beach fit
late frost
also uh
Sagat trailer I guess
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NQAGpnoVcRQ
mellow palm
Does a pachinko machine count as a gacha
worthy crystal
https://fixupx.com/StreetFighter/status/1938359728704266643
https://fixupx.com/S...
Luke is so fucking hot holy shit
The aki skin also looks really good unironically
A little strange though
balmy parrot
there isn't one unfortunately
balmy parrot
if there's not even a single fighting game announcement I will be pretty sad
balmy parrot
late frost
ayy-vough
balmy parrot
alright that was pretty bad
late frost
smh at least the capcom showcase had the bikinis
balmy parrot
alright so
the only fighting game arcsys is working on is fucking
the marvel game
this shit is bleak, man
the next 6 years are gonna be a huge fucking drought
teal pebble
makes sense they already have both GBF and Strive which is still being supported so they dont see the need to make more than just the marvel game
worthy crystal
Is it bad to want fuerte back @faint ice
faint ice
He's low-key got a swagger but he wouldn't be the same speed demon in 6
late frost
the return of the run-stop infinite?
tbh as unpopular as vortex is these days
it would be nice to have one or two true vortex characters
stoic gazelle
im thinking of picking up central fiction
its like 10 bucks but i dont want another anime fighting game to focus on since i already play uni 2
balmy parrot
CF has some great single-player stuff
worthy crystal
its like 10 bucks but i dont want another anime fighting game to focus on since ...
If it’s only 10 I’d personally just send it
Bbcf is a very difficult game to commit to in modern day anyways
stoic gazelle
nah its goo
i was thinking of picking it up because relius looked sick to play but ill think about it
because id just be me for a bit grinding relius stuff when i could spend that time either on uni 2 grinding ogre or dbfz/mahvel playing muh teams
worthy crystal
Would never happen
A lot of people don’t even think he’s top 1
If they just banned UB loops maybe that would be popular but idk
A lot of the people left who play cf are boomers who think new fg players whine too much about everything so this would in fact be pretty funny
balmy parrot
it does feel a bit weird to ban a specific strategy in a fighting game but I guess if Melee could ban Wobbling there's a good reason for it
shrewd furnace
They banned a bunch of strats in melee so it fits
worthy crystal
There’s plenty of examples
faint ice
A lot of the people left who play cf are boomers who think new fg players whine ...
Definitely doesn't help that he just won ceo
balmy parrot
fwiw the arcsys showcase is what convinced them to drop this
not the ceo win
kinda weird that people are calling them scrubs and posturing over it though
worthy crystal
A lot of the people left who play cf are boomers who think new fg players whine ...
.
It’s old gen fg mentality
Especially pertinent is the narrative around Kobe that he’s a super fresh player who exploded on the scene which furthers draws the divide
The idea is basically “we’ve tolerated this character for years and now some new blood comes in and wants to change things that were handleable before”
Not that I have a strong opinion
I don’t care either way it goes though I would hope for a world where he can’t just loop unblockables regardless of the state of his legality
worthy crystal
The idea is basically “we’ve tolerated this character for years and now some new...
It definitely doesn’t help pr that kobe plays bang, who is one of the worst characters at fighting Carl
And has a grounded backdash, meaning he can theoretically be completely one touch’d by Carl if he doesn’t have burst
vivid furnace
finally playing sf6 again
hit iron 3
am sad, this guile player left after one match and i wanted to play against more guile
balmy parrot
this whole incident has kinda made me lose all respect for jiyuna tbh
faint ice
am sad, this guile player left after one match and i wanted to play against more...
guile's pretty niche, it's the charge life
worthy crystal
Jiyuna has always been a bit of an asshole idk nothing new learned here
worthy crystal
A lot of the people left who play cf are boomers who think new fg players whine ...
And as I said
Shrug
CF is basically a dead game anyways now so
I personally find it quite ironic to ban a character that (some people who even signed the doc) think isn’t even top 1
late frost
X
faint ice
It would be so fire if Vega was in 6 <:nukgar:1232064229373378712>
I'm actually so okay if there are no more lunging characters
they're almost an archetype at this rate
worthy crystal
I know what u mean but Vega feels so diff from honda/bison
late frost
<@199566048750469120> I’m just so nostalgic for sf4 rn
man really said
"yo remember sf4 vega"
worthy crystal
- the claw and mask on/off thing is so cool
worthy crystal
man really said
"yo remember sf4 vega"
Hes just really cool idk
late frost
+ the claw and mask on/off thing is so cool
this is very true
I was so sad when they gutted the system in SFV
worthy crystal
Vega (not in sf2) is one of my fav designs for sf characters in general
I think the system in sfv is still cool
And at least it gives u a reason to ever take off the claw
late frost
people are not ready to have the conversation about bringing rufus back
balmy parrot
Vega is so cool
shrewd furnace
We should bring back Vega and make him play like he does in super turbo
Would be a very unique experience for that sort of moveset in 6’s mechanics
balmy parrot
holy could you imagine DSP winning against Justin Wong after 20 years
shrewd furnace
Yes, I know Vega in super turbo plays like a scumbag but that’s funny 
worthy crystal
people are not ready to have the conversation about bringing rufus back
Don’t do that though
worthy crystal
We should bring back Vega and make him play like he does in super turbo
Ok tbf
Tap parry cooks that fraud
SF2 flying Barcelona is extremely broken in the context of a game with no buffer varied wakeups or crossup protection on a move that I’m pretty sure is plus
Also that characters kit never changed a ton, they just made his frame data less insane and system mechanics/ general fighting game changes that aren’t as kind
teal pebble
worthy crystal
Azrael is cheating
worthy crystal
covert void
small furnace
yea but i never touched it
worthy crystal
Sigh
But think about when you were doing crusader offense for 10 seconds straight
late frost
I got it on sale
Haven't put much time into it
But I remember the flow feeling weird when I was in training mode
worthy crystal
It has the old arcsys 15 years of hitstop feel to it
teal pebble
I got it for free at one point but never touched it
vivid furnace
alrighty i needa grind nova spencer doom now, my buddy who plays mvc3 is a bit better than me
had to resort to ghost rider dorm doom cheese to get games off
worn rivet
small furnace
the potemkin experience
vivid furnace
she's in like the next state over from that hitbox how the fuck
but yeah thats potemkin
late frost
tbh it doesn't look that weird
it looks like a whiff punish on an extended hurtbox
gaunt cloud
Close enough i think
late frost
faint ice
the facial hair even more exaggerated than 6
austere garnet
4 more hours let’s see how fast that drive rush is
late frost
It's almost time
faint ice
bro has like 5 versions of the same super
late frost
Really leaning into Muay Thai's reputation as being a brutal art
vivid furnace
why is sagat so TALL holy shit
and yeah muay thai does NOT fuck around
WHY IS THIS GUY 7'5"
cant wait to see the desk video on sagat tbh
teal pebble
He always been this tall
He's just an absolute unit
cosmic forge
Where’s his tiger from 5 
late frost
Raz it's been ten years
(I think it's in the background of the stage)
very saddened to see they put low and high tiger shot on the same move
L is low
M and H are high
kara is also probably gone
but he does look very sick
allegedly Nen Impact has rough netcode
unfortunate if true
vivid furnace
allegedly Nen Impact has rough netcode
unfortunate if true
its very, very, very true
worthy crystal
Is this game out now
cosmic forge
So now that I have a good computer
Uh
What fighting games do you guys recommend rn
late frost
Street Fighter 6 is the big fish
feature-rich in both singleplayer and multiplayer content
it's the one I play the most
there's a lot of tag fighters coming down the pipeline
Nen Impact just came out, made by the same company that made UMvC3, but apparently it's not doing so hot
my finger isn't on the pulse of a lot of other fighitng games personally, unfortunately
I hear Tekken 8 is going through a real rough patch right now
cosmic forge
I’m also like
I wish I could but I’m not getting into the new Fatal Fury
I feel awful supporting SNK now
faint ice
SF6 the best product hands down
Ofc tekken if you're 3d diehard
If you enjoy Anime, you're spoilt for choice with Uni2, GGST & GBVSR
Most older gen games have got rollback now too so the world's your oyster
boreal hound
there's a lot of tag fighters coming down the pipeline
Nen Impact just came out,...
It's bad and not even in the "wow everything is so broken lmao" bad but the much lamer "this netcode is borderline unplayable on" bad
It does have the former too but
vivid furnace
What fighting games do you guys recommend rn
mahvel :)
vivid furnace
how is mk1 selling so many copies yet pulling fewer players than a 25yr old game
game is older than me man
late frost
they're not tournament players
shrewd furnace
Oh hey underwear is getting main stage play
austere garnet
What fighting games do you guys recommend rn
Iron saga vs
austere garnet
Jade is bald before Kano is 
The mk2 movie looks like it has way more potential because they’re writing Cole young into a side character
And all the new characters have amazing designs minus barakas face and voice
late frost
steel gale
austere garnet
https://fixupx.com/UltimaShadowX/status/1946631612159905819
Let’s go the greatest fighting game ever
So peak
vivid furnace
ok so i didnt get to lab it too much before deciding to watch vinny sunday stream
but killer instinct is rather fun to lab
though for me its more just. learning the game. but still!
plus it has the arbiter and although he's not my kind of character, i love that
worthy crystal
Basically every character is sick to lab in KI
Because of how schnasty you can make combos when there’s no breakers
shrewd furnace
Maya’s my favorite because I like that style of play
worthy crystal
What style
Being demonic?
I agree
She is actually kind of an Akuma analogue if u think about
I just can’t believe they shipped her with a safe on block DP
worthy crystal
@small furnace do u ever play a character in such a way that is clearly not what the character was intended to do
small furnace
i play elphelt fairly
small furnace
god no
shrewd furnace
You play elphelt without nades?
mellow palm
Dude I’m just now getting around to watching Hunter x Hunter battle for the grid gameplay
This game is so stupid bro
Why do none of the supers have scaling
late frost
they gave her the dream combo lamo
faint ice
wait the sept 9 beta
is gonna be perma online
theyre basically releasing the game on pc first
balmy parrot
this is easily the most scuffed launch of a fighting game ever
faint ice
@nova pagoda 8 character rng launch baby
wicked quarry
Damn Vi looks sick ngl
Only complaint I have is that her level 1 should dash her through the enemy
It aint a true BIONIC AAAAAAARM unless it does
late frost
her ult doesn't show the guy getting hit
which really hurts selling the impact and damage
faint ice
Ive peacefully had no riot client on my system for years...
Idk if im ready to go back
balmy parrot
download our kernel level anticheat for a fucking 3v3 tag fighter
nova pagoda
<@121831661284360192> 8 character rng launch baby
And people think riftbpund is going to succeed with this company’s track record
gaunt cloud
download our kernel level anticheat for a fucking 3v3 tag fighter
actually its 2v2
(because there wasnt rnough characters to make it 3v3 )
faint ice
And people think riftbpund is going to succeed with this company’s track record
im going all in
nova pagoda
More characters in a marvel anime fighting game trailer than there are at launch for this lol
faint ice
the arcane prophecy
wicked quarry
her ult doesn't show the guy getting hit
which really hurts selling the impact a...
Yeah Idk about the angle
nova pagoda
If they add Gwen then maybe but all my hype is gone bro
wicked quarry
I like the final frame, its a classic way of selling the impact
But it really feels like the impact of the punch should have the enemy character in frame
balmy parrot
I don't often pray on another's downfall
but I'm not too upset that Riot is fumbling this tbh
wicked quarry
I'm not even sure they're fumbling it
As much as they may just have announced things too early
faint ice
^
This is their biggest problem
they should have SHUT UP
like 5 years ago
been halfway through the process
before saying ANYTHING
wicked quarry
Feels like they just really wanted to put the s in Riot Games asap
And only Valorant really worked out long term
nova pagoda
Problem is now the competition is ramping up
late frost
on the other hand
they got a lot of momentum being the only game in town for a tag fighter
nova pagoda
You have to compete with a Mvc spiritual successor
late frost
but they couldn't deliver fast enough and now their offering looks really meager
nova pagoda
They also scrapped years worth of development to rework it into a tag fighter
wicked quarry
Is the competition really ramping up tho?
late frost
cynics may say the cannon brothers simply fleeced riot games until they demanded they actually release a product
wicked quarry
Like yeah you've got Marvel Tokon now but we don't have a solid release date
Hell that one hasn't even had a live demo yet iirc
late frost
and demo at this Evo
faint ice
^
late frost
to be fair
a lot of the other tag games are clearly AA
but uh
people will say 2XKO is a AA game
nova pagoda
I’ll sell skipper’s soul for another blazblue game pls Allah
faint ice
AAA licensed massive ip coming out at the same time as AA fighter
2xko will be f2p and here first though
also if they stealth drop sylas all is forgiven
late frost
F2P should get a lot of people in the door
but it remains to be seen how many people will stay with it
wicked quarry
Sure Tokon won't take as long, hopefully, but ArcSys hasn't been without its own flawed developments either
nova pagoda
The beta that starts on sept 9 is a closed beta
nova pagoda
I tried each time bro 
vivid furnace
krill issue
nova pagoda
LoR was easier to get access for 
late frost
anyway
the consequences of modern and world tour have been devastating
we have lost the two tiger shot inputs
there is now only one
faint ice
Tiger Jinrai though
worthy crystal
https://vxtwitter.com/Play2XKO/status/1947672988431548769
SHES SO FIRE
worthy crystal
is the position of bbtag
Ok but bbtag also suffered
Because bbtag was a doomed concept
Half the issues with bbtag, bad balance notwithstanding, is how they gutted every characters kit
wicked quarry
I wouldn't say that was the main issue
DBFZ had even simpler kits and that did really well
BBTAG wasj ust in that awkward middle spot where it was both too simple and too difficult
shrewd furnace
Dbfz didnt have to pull from other games where you had more options per character though
I just realized the tokon demo looks like it’s only going to have 6 characters
For a 4v4 game
worthy crystal
DBFZ had even simpler kits and that did really well
Missing the point
worthy crystal
Dbfz didnt have to pull from other games where you had more options per characte...
What he said
Bbtag was a terribly received game because, at its core, it was just worse than all of the games it took from
It turned 2 different 4 button fighters into a 3b fighter
And the uni characters lost so many of the system mechanic interactions that define that games most fundamental aspects
wicked quarry
I feel like the target audience were the people who liked the idea/aesthetic of those games but were turned off because they were so complex in their inputs/mechanics
Hence also why RWBY was in there
It just didnt work out great because it introduced other complex mechanics
worthy crystal
Maybe that was the target audience but it was never going to be successful with that audience regardless?
It was advertised as a bb game but hated almost universally by bb players
If it was its own unique ip or even just a rwby fighting game it almost certainly would’ve been far more successful
And bbtag also isn’t exactly the most mechanically complex game, especially as far as tag games go
It’s technically demanding at higher levels of gameplay sure but there’s nothing that’s exactly confusing
wicked quarry
I dont think it wouldve been more successful
And idk, the tag mechanics especially at a high level were pretty demanding and (more importantly) really obtuse to new players
worthy crystal
I fully disagree
wicked quarry
The worst offender easily being the burst mechanic and when you are even allowed to use it
(Not literally, but as in "your opponent can or cannot just continue their combo if you try to burst here")
Its not that hard compared to some of the stuff you can do in other Tag Fighters, but its significantly harder than DBFZ, and it just clashes with the other simplification they went for
Leading to a game that didnt really satisfy anyone fully
shrewd furnace
Tbh simplification in a tag game is expected, necessary even
If it didn’t use characters from IPs that specifically like character depth, it would’ve probably done much better
And most people don’t care about how hard a game is at top levels, just how hard it is to get into
wicked quarry
So long as theyre running into players that are equally clueless, and that wasnt exactly guaranteed in BBTAG
Oh yeah it also had a bad lobby system
Not the biggest factor, but its there
Idk, I doubt the IP hurt it more than it helped
Theres always been an untapped market for BB that the games were too complex for
Its part of why Entropy Effect sold so much better than any actual BB game
(In the west at least)
balmy parrot
not necessarily a good thing, mind you
if it was an RPG like how Mori originally planned then sure but it being a fighting game is pretty vital to its identity
wicked quarry
Thats if anything the part Entropy Effect (mostly) kept
Its like a roguelike version of the fighting game with the neccessary polish
Its the story part it basically gave up on
(EE is entirely unrelated to BBs story)
balmy parrot
well yeah they shouldn't even attempt to make more BB games without Mori writing
wicked quarry
Doesnt look like they are lmao
Idk myself, the story has been kinda changed to a new enough status quo that I could be fine with a game not written by him
As long as he gives whoever the successor would be his blessing
Do we know why he left anyway?
balmy parrot
'cause he was done with Blazblue
that's about it
there's no bad blood or anything, he retweets ArcSys posts all the time
he just moved on
paper notch
wicked quarry
Tbh people are overhating on Vis ult
(It has a big flaw but its also not a hard one to fix)
shrewd furnace
I mean, it’s pretty long but that’s to be expected from this game in particular
Always found those annoying but it’s for a popular audience so meh
wicked quarry
It being long is fine
But the final punch not showing the enemy actually getting hit and only showing them slammed away is a big miss
balmy parrot
the entire super is framed wrong, it feels like an HSR ult
wicked quarry
I think the first half can work fine as long as it actually shows the impact of the final big punch
But you need to see the enemy, and ideally there needs to be a big impact frame before they're just launched into the stratosphere
Basically what I'm saying is they need to Fire Gotchard it
shrewd furnace
Needs to include ragdoll physics too
late frost
paper notch
vxTwitter / fixvx
austere garnet
https://youtube.com/shorts/bKpaNfmgaxU?si=iQSjuz1-DrZEmTnQ it’s so strange 2xko re did two past level 3 supers to have way better animations while also showing off a new character with a terrible looking level 3 super
worthy crystal
Who’s to say they won’t also redo vis
faint ice
https://youtube.com/shorts/bKpaNfmgaxU?si=iQSjuz1-DrZEmTnQ it’s so strange 2xko ...
That's exactly why
Vi is clearly getting pushed out the door
Ekkos looked real mid to me before and the improvement is nice
Vi's will get fixed but the question is how long
teal pebble
that remix of merkavas theme though
👀
shrewd furnace
I love dubstep in my fighting game
ART BOOK, NOT MVC4
shrewd furnace
Is anyone else seeing pings for this post and nothing new popping up?
gaunt cloud
Think its someone just trying to post a webp over and over?
pearl burrow
teal pebble
wicked quarry
Well
shrewd furnace
wicked quarry
That's just ominous
late frost
vivid furnace
its the skeleton
worn rivet
hey hey anyone here got experience with haute leverless controllers?
shrewd furnace
No idea what haute is but I made my own
worn rivet
No idea what haute is but I made my own
wdym you made your own
haute42 is like a big seller of cool cheap leverless controllers i think
vivid furnace
making your own leverless (or fight stick in general) is pretty straight forward
basic skills with power tools (literally just a drill + hole saw is all thats needed) and the ability to follow instructions in the case of using gp2040-ce or the ability to have more money in the case of a brooks board
ive heard good things about haute controllers but i dont have any personal experience bc uh. i also made my own stick
worn rivet
icy
yeah i don't trust myself nearly enough to build my own controller
shit would end up falling apart FAST
thanks for the suggestion tho
faint ice
hey hey anyone here got experience with haute leverless controllers?
I don't have one but if u were asking for recommendation, they seem fine as long as you get the size you want, for consoles like ps5 you'll need a converter for most of them though
worn rivet
ty
vivid furnace
unfortunate news chat, im back on my ghost rider umvc3 shit
though this time its ghost rider/doom/wesker, with beam n otg
ghost rider can convert 4H off of beam pretty consistently into another round of 5H > 5H, 214L, and if i can figure out how to do the same w/ gunshot, i might be able to kill akuma in one combo 
cos the vision is 5H > 5H, 623L, 5H > 5H, 214L, call doom, microwalk back 4H, 5H > 5H, 214L, call wesker, microwalk back 4H, 5H > 5H, 214L, 236L 236XX
i dont think it'll work though this character is ass
late frost
wicked quarry
Oh its BBTAG-ified
No wait
This is more Granblue
Ok its a mix of both
Ngl Im not vibing with this one as much
balmy parrot
the taste of sweet, sweet vindication
austere garnet
I’m so so glad marvel token is using a modern system like Granblue for specials
We’re moving into an age of no directional inputs and it’s so peak
wicked quarry
Well no it still has directional inputs and theyre still better
You just basically have modern controls baked in as an option
balmy parrot
by directional input you guys mean motion inputs right
austere garnet
Well no it still has directional inputs and theyre still better
Well yeah we have them but it’s nice that modern controls are as good if not better in some cases
austere garnet
by directional input you guys mean motion inputs right
Yeah
Idk why I said directional
wicked quarry
In this case theyre strictly worse except maybe for DPs
balmy parrot
I think we should avoid getting rid of motion inputs
wicked quarry
Tbh I think this solution kinda sucks
austere garnet
I think this solution is wonderful
wicked quarry
If you want to remove motion inputs, remove them outright
Instead of this half-solution where you give people an illusion of choice
austere garnet
It’s not an illusion of choice
balmy parrot
I'm sorry but if you remove motion inputs half the fun is gone
wicked quarry
I'm not a motion input purist myself but
I do enjoy them
And I think if you want to remove them you should just remove them and design around that
late frost
players and developers are still underestimating the implications of removing motion inputs even though we have been litigating this matter for decades
balmy parrot
it's fine if you don't want motion inputs but it's such a vital part of fighting game history and culture that downplaying its importance and wanting to remove it from the future of fighting games is a bit weird
shrewd furnace
There’s a lot of implications to removing motion inputs
I’m fine with them there or not but properties have to change quite a lot
balmy parrot
not having to do a fireball input for a fireball will never not be weird for me
shrewd furnace
I see you don’t play charge characters
balmy parrot
I do, I'm just not very comfortable with them
wicked quarry
My personal take is that motion inputs in combos can be a little awkward
balmy parrot
plus I play like Mitsuru
wicked quarry
To the point where most modern games are very lenient with them
I've always wondered about having motion inputs for neutral and single button inputs in combos, but that's probably a wack system
The closest to that being like, Rekka characters ig?
late frost
The root of fighting games is managing your mental stack and attacking your opponent's
The removal of complex motion inputs foundationally lightens the mental stack load
which makes defensive tools stronger, which the entire game flow has to be balanced around
balmy parrot
My personal take is that motion inputs in combos can be a little awkward
depends on the combo but, for me at least, motion inputs are actually what make combos possible to remember in the first place
they're pretty good milestones for me to remember
if it was just "hold this direction and press this button" I wouldn't remember any combos at all
late frost
Also, the 360 is a super elegant way of limiting when you can do the move
You either have to buffer into it, or have a supreme display of skill or hardware but that's another discussion
This in turn means defenders can recognize explicitly when the move is a threat, rather than having to be perpetually afraid of a random unblockable move
You cannot meaningfully implement the high risk, high contextual fear gameplay of the grapple archetype without motion inputs or some wack forced contextualized jank
balmy parrot
iirc modern zangief was really annoying because of this
wicked quarry
Well you can without the 360
Potemkin doesnt use one
Idk about doing grapplers without motion inputs entirely
late frost
iirc modern zangief was really annoying because of this
Ye
The most recent case study
The balancing factor of reducing his damage also smooths out the whole grappler archetype design
And he was still a huge pain to fight without rethinking the whole playspacr
austere garnet
Why wouldn’t you be able to do grapplers without motion inputs
shrewd furnace
Potemkin effectively has one
OD input can be hard and takes similar time to do, maybe more so
late frost
If you put a high damage, fast, unblockable command grab on a simple input, the attacker has access to that tool at all times
This turns it from a setplay and mixup tool into an incredible neutral tool and reversal tool as well
If you weaken the command grab to compensate for its ease of access, you dilute the grappler fantasy anyway
wicked quarry
Its not really any less available when it has an input like Potemkins tbh
late frost
Potemkin is also in a faster game and has some nontraditional tools like a projectile, memory serve me right
austere garnet
Granblue is a slow game with a grappler with a high damaging fast command grab on a simple input and that grapplers seems fine
late frost
Shoutouts to in this behemoth typhoon
wicked quarry
Ok but GL was a mistake
balmy parrot
I disagree on the principle of you being married
worthy crystal
I disagree with your disagreement on the principle of you still having not played me in persona
Anyways I remember a point in time when people still accounted execution as a part of a players skill set which seems to really not be a common sentiment anymore with how popular support is for simplified/no inputs
balmy parrot
well I was gonna but I'm taking the week to rest up since I'm still recovering from my accident
worthy crystal
I guess people had this same conversation with 1 frame links and whatnot
But with that, I also fear it was indeed a skill issue
vivid furnace
honestly the whole 2v2 thing of tokon kills it for me, i wanted 3 assists at 99 seconds
umvc3 will remain as mahvel
will still check it out inevitably, though, as i must with most new releases
worthy crystal
It was pretty explicitly stated already to not be mahvel
I haven’t had time to check it yet can someone give me a rundown
wicked quarry
Throws and some specials in neutral cause wallbreak, which unlock an assist and give you one extra bar of assist gauge availablr
Start with 1 assist, the other two have to be unlocked
Oh and you unlock one on losing a stock too
Motion inputs and special button for the same moves, motion inputs do more damage
There are ex specials, supers and ultimates, costing 25, 50 and 100
There are dedicated launchers and autocombos (like in DBFZ iirc)
1 hp bar for the whole team
One assist button, direction chooses who you call
You can swap to your assist after calling them for an assist or a super
BBTAG-style burst is a thing, but has the same weakness
There's also an assist equivalent of like yellow RC and Deflect from Strive, ish?
I think that's all the important stuff
worthy crystal
Start with 1 assist, the other two have to be unlocked
This is hype actually
wicked quarry
It's an interesting idea, I just don't like how they're unlocked
worthy crystal
Did they say if every character has one assist or does it depend on the slot
worthy crystal
It's an interesting idea, I just don't like how they're unlocked
I think it’s a pretty good idea
wicked quarry
Kamala Khan had more than one
worthy crystal
The same way positive bonus incentivizes wall breaks by being really strong
So it depends on the slot they’re in I assume
wicked quarry
But I don't remember how the second one was triggered
worthy crystal
As in
wicked quarry
That or its ground vs aerial
wicked quarry
In the video, but they're clips
worthy crystal
Icic
wicked quarry
So can't tell if it's rhe same match
worthy crystal
If they want to make it real nightmare mode you can give every character 3 assists that rotate on the slot they were tagged to
austere garnet
X
wicked quarry
Wallsticks also unlock assists so maybe its fine, but my worry is that neutral at the start is gonna be just trying to bait specific moves or go full Ky Kiske
balmy parrot
does marvel have wallbreaks now
wicked quarry
Yesnt
worthy crystal
Having any assists at all will make it a pretty violent game (bbtag)
wicked quarry
As far as we know you only wallbreak when you throw or hit a special in neutral
worthy crystal
I wouldn’t worry about people playing Kyle
wicked quarry
If you hit a wall they stick and one of your assists hits them off of it into a basic knockdown?
I'm not 100% on that
OK yeah assists are based on the slot
And you get extra hp and meter bars unlocked with extra assists
Though doesn't seem like you get the hp immediately
So there's a bit of a comeback mechanic
gaunt cloud
Also, first to 3 / bo5 wins the match
faint ice
Starting with only 2 characters is actually hype
I was never predicting this as the system
worthy crystal
Also, first to 3 / bo5 wins the match
This makes sense with one health bar
It sounds like a cool system
I still haven’t seen gameplay yet so I’ll withhold judgment but everything I read sounds good
worthy crystal
@small furnace rejoined bbcf server to ask questions about IM and play some matches immediately remembered why I fucking hate that server
small furnace
wtf is the bb server bad?
worthy crystal
Beyond horrible
They spend more time complaining about how new fighting games bad than they do playing the old fighting game they pretend to like
Server was bad enough that i stopped modding it and just ghosted them and left lol
Tokon isn’t even out yet and they already did the this game sucks and anybody who plays it is a shill speedrun
small furnace
how miserable
i feel like a lot of old game niche circles will devolve into that if they dont have like
hmmm
i dont wanna say sauce
cus bbcf has sauce
but i cant think of other old fighters with bad discords
worthy crystal
Bbcf community was never good I regret to say
Since like day 1 of bb everyone was a hater on everyone else
Not like gg was some super supportive wonderful community but it’s like a pretty diff scale
Maybe it’s a side effect of the games identity being formed contra gg
Idk
small furnace
maybe
worthy crystal
Sometimes games just have bad communities at the end of the day
small furnace
yea fair enough. melee community...
its not as bad as before but god that community was pure dogshit
balmy parrot
melee gotta be the worst to ever do it ngl
balmy parrot
<@480437470870110209> rejoined bbcf server to ask questions about IM and play so...
this is why you gotta hop on P4U2 bestie
friendliest discord fighter
worthy crystal
I actually never stepped foot in that server is it actually good
balmy parrot
yes incredibly
they are extremely friendly and helpful, every character has a designated channel filled with resources for learning them
balmy parrot
there's plenty of banter but everyone's nice
faint ice
Haha I actually sat down and watched the beginner video
They made drive impact an overhead?? this is evil lool
late frost
what was that metered armored tool in Injustice? I think some or all of those were overheads too
worthy crystal
Maybe I’m misremembering but pretty sure you picked between armored launcher/overhead
Maybe the overhead was armored too but I’m pretty sure you didn’t get a combo off of it
and mix in ij is a little weird
faint ice
Tokon has movement before round start?
they impress me so easily with such simple decisions
late frost
Takes me back to the days of Mahvel
shrewd furnace
If it ain’t mbcaa round start movement then I’m disappointed af
faint ice
tuning in to evo, why have I never seen the uni puppet character before @worthy crystal
worthy crystal
tuning in to evo, why have I never seen the uni puppet character before <@364939...
Chaos?
shrewd furnace
That’s also the reaction most people get when playing vs Chaos
faint ice
yeah chaos
worthy crystal
I know nothing about izumi if that’s who ur talking about
Oh actually how did you never see that character
He’s rad
faint ice
the lizard's cool
balmy parrot
doesn't look like it, no
worn rivet
X
shrewd furnace
ayo?
vivid furnace
X
balmy parrot
ayo?
TO 66
Hazama is the coolest character in the cast but I sure can't play him for shit
balmy parrot
we might need to kill you
paper notch
How would you know better than roast how well he can play the char
balmy parrot
HE BELIEVES IN ME
paper notch
Well i believe in the me that believes in you
balmy parrot
thank you Guy-san...
I will play P4U2 instead, and come back after 6 months to pick up Lambda instead...
cosmic forge
understandable crashout, melee fox is bullshit
It’s kinda wild to me that like
I was just thinking about this
Why the fuck are notches allowed
How is modifying your controller specifically to allow consistent good angles with spacie recovery not absolutely banned
shrewd furnace
It doesn’t violate the oh so heavily debated standard in fighting games of 1 button = 1 action so people just let it go
Just like how hitbox controllers have optimal angles hard programmed into combinations of buttons and why dualshock controllers were controversial for sf
(At least for a bit)
austere garnet
Granblue is adding variations to existing characters it looks like with gran, djeeta and narm all getting something called an EX version which will change their special moves and u skill and narm I think has changes to her normals
Very interesting stuff
shrewd furnace
Hopefully they don’t have a kof 13 situation
(EX versions were dlc and almost every team had to have at least 2 of them to be competitive, sometimes 3)
austere garnet
That’s very interesting