you're doing everything so traditionally wrong, but winning
#League of Legends
eternal palm
wheat notch
wym respect me its The Natural Play for years ?
eternal palm
that's worthy of respect
wheat notch
you dont even want E
at level 3
especially not after they killed it in 2021
love that 10% slow + less damage than Q on a 70mana ability with a 20~s cd
(iirc)
ah satchel was 20, minefield is 16
darn
dapper kite
won anyways cause this game was unlosable
dapper kite
living on the edge
wheat notch
you're doing everything so traditionally wrong, but winning
Anyway even some pros do it it's not surprising
Inspired from EG
Gumayusi, T1 
wack ass build but yk
Hjarnan
There is genuinely very little reason to put a point into E level 3, especially when you don't want to use it Level 3
It's most arguable if you're either
a) doing that weirdo tech I discovered in like '19 where Lv1 Q + Level 3 E used to instantly kill casters (dk if its possible post nerfs)
b) playing botlane
eternal palm
you skipped over Carzzzy, clozer, 2nd point in Q only makes sense if you're doing a cheater, which you specifically told me you know nothing about wave manipulation
wheat notch
I did skip over them
but also
what the fuck are any of these guys doing tbqh
including the guys i posted
why are they all buying tear
whya re half of them on first strike when it sucks
(To be fairrrrrrr I only played like 2 games of First Strike but it felt like shit + did no damage + I save 600~ gold from Future's Market & Free Shoes anyway)
eternal palm
I just ignore first strike’s existence tbh
wheat notch
I'd want to post like certified Ziggs good-players but the only one I know off the top of my head uh
Doesn't Play The Game
His twitch doesn't have any vods saved from ye olden times it's just a Baron steal clip from 6 years ago
Ah- hold on
prisma ravine
First strike is good on Viktor tbh
Despite being billed as an assassin rune its probably best on mages tbh
wheat notch
His example clips only have Level 2 and Level 4 😭
prisma ravine
Only Kha can use it well as an assassin iirc
eternal palm
well for starters, i will never trust any mid that takes ignite on a mage
prisma ravine
Also good on Viktor tbh
prisma ravine
You want early kills for your passive
eternal palm
everybody always wants to play a kill lane, instead of playing the game the correct way
night marsh
I'd want to post like certified Ziggs good-players but the only one I know off t...
no sane person would solo main ziggs
wheat notch
I'm sure there's some
Richi is just the only one I've actually discussed the champion with
wheat notch
everybody always wants to play a kill lane, instead of playing the game the corr...
Being aggro with Ziggs was correct back then
I don't know his state right now, but Ziggs used to tank mid-late game
especially with fair item Force of Nature and fair objective Baron Nashor still removing your waveclear
Like you get progressively worse as the game goes on even with Gathering Storm so it blows
Ziggs has been best in the early-earlymidgame for as long as I can remember
The only problem with this super snowball super aggro cpot ignite gaming build is that
durability patch fucked it over somewhat
and you're just generally weaker than surrounding champs nowadays
Ironically, my rune page has naturally evolved back into this playstyle as I try to mess with Lost Chapter components
The only difference is that I don't take biscuits/twt because no cpot, nor ignite because tp is necessary for my line
night marsh
also dont get baited by the pros
gwen is still shit
she has 1 matchup where she's favored but the best top lane champ absolutely demolishes her
this shit happened at worlds too where they kept picking her (I want to say 6-7 games) and she only won 1 or 2
SKT lost finals cause they locked her in
eternal palm
it just screams like a strat that does not work in 5's. Solo Q very much has people thinking a lot of stuff that is strong in a solo q environment, is also strong outside of it. And while there is overlap, playing standard will always be more benificial for you than playing cheese
wheat notch
what if the standard i see on u.gg sucks shit
pros clearly dont have a unified build for ziggs
u saw from my screenshots alone
plus they barely pick him
eternal palm
standard is take proper runes, take proper summoner spells, play the lane the way the matchup encourages to, don't make the game a coinflip.
wheat notch
big fucking problem here
the runse suck
the items suck
do u think
i dont test them
to make sure
theyre still shit?
eternal palm
the days of super dominant laners mid died long ago, you have more impact influencing your side lanes than playing for yourself.
there's a reason why half the games I lose I'm being 4-5 manned bot consistently
eternal palm
even lamb can attest to this, playing top and getting 3 manned consistently fucking sucks, but it's a winning play
wheat notch
my champ
is bad at roaming
and hes discouraged to do that as well
i cant counter roam
ill just die
🗿
eternal palm
do you know, that even going into fog, and making it seemed like you're roaming, relieves a TON of pressure for your side lanes
slim terrace
slim terrace
asol's ult is a penis
wheat notch
i lose braincells talking to u not worth it
in retrospect thats too harsh
if i get muted thats fair 👍
eternal palm
No offense taken. I can only show you the water, I can't force you to drink it.
wheat notch
flint michigan water
wheat notch
the 0 3 ziggs will surely roam <:clueless:1053714975870431302>
we won actually
after i went 0/10
irelia is a pretty fair champ as it turns out
and it doesnt matter how much ive inted if i can still bust towers
👍
trail crow
I want to get good at this game, can somebody tell me a good champion to start off with?
prisma ravine
God why does Swain do negative damage
... yknow as much as I hate it
I think Im gonna drop Swain
Champ feels legit unplayable
Like Im up 1000 gold
And I cant kill anyone because he just doesnt do any damage
Amumus W does more damage than Swains bloody ult
prisma ravine
Aaand just lost an easily won game because Fiddles ult decided hitting me wasnt a requirement for the fear
I just needed to exist vaguely in the same vicinity
eternal palm
night marsh
You and me, we got this
eternal palm
“Welcome to the adc meta” just means “get ready to get 4 man dove bot at level 3 consistently every game”
eternal palm
Now get upset a starting adc job for vitality pls and ty
slim terrace
This is so fucking tilting
did this dude just role swap into jhin support?
man that lethality udyr
night marsh
Personall i think its hilairious that top 4 in eu is also top 4 in the climbatho...
Did they do like a first to top challenger competition and all 4 of them placed in top 4 of the region? Cause that’s a massive flex lol
dim kindle
the competition was highest rank between the participators after 2 weeks
dapper kite
^
wheat notch
did this dude just role swap into jhin support?
yeah
he was like don't u know anything about the meta 
slim terrace
.
wheat notch
Wait does elo decay affect mmr
wheat notch
Demoted in a game I had a lot of agency in, again !
wheat notch
👍
prisma ravine
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/10l09ng/aurulion_sol_new_ult_s...
Guess ASol is still a Bad Dragon 
sullen crystal
new sylas voiceline dropped
https://twitter.com/Riot_ChoGath/status/1618280508055773186?t=mqG1EhP7V9eMujbvUdTqbw&s=19
sinful frost
Oh
It's an Andrew Tate quote tweet
prisma ravine
I feel like thats unfair to Sylas
dapper kite
The first three lines are almost literally sylas lines
The last one sounds close enough
Just that syals talks about it in the past tense ofcourse
dapper kite
honestly, xerath seems like a fun champ to play, if only the map didnt look like this after 15 min
night marsh
Ah the young bloodthirster fiora tech
dim kindle
used to be legit before it had crit
prisma ravine
Nowadays Hydra fills that spot
dim kindle
ye but she just built both
there was this weird period where fiora just stacked lifesteal items
slim terrace
he was like don't u know anything about the meta <:clueless:1053714975870431302>
I hope you're ready for cait support next
eternal palm
My undefeated placements run is over
Really unlucky. I just needed to last hit 2 of the 14 kills I contributed to, and I could have gotten sherylda’s and won the game for us
Instead I finished the game 0/3/14 lol
sullen crystal
after a break from league I have started playing and it feels like I've never played before lmfao
eternal palm
I wouldn’t even say he objectively loses lane. Every 15ish cs is a kills worth of goal, factor that in with the fact that he’s normally taking all 5 plates and tower
sullen crystal
I feel like what baus does is like
it makes sense to people who are clued in but it's very easy to look and go "lol int"
slim terrace
proxy singed with a fresh coat of paint
tulip osprey
Can’t believe league got hacked so Ahri asu is delayed
eternal palm
it makes sense to people who are clued in but it's very easy to look and go "lol...
He accelerates the game and makes the game uncomfortable for players
The “correct” way to play the game is to farm up, play around your spikes and play to your win cons
Baus throws that in the garbage and says “fuck your spikes, take a coin flip fight now or lose the game”
sullen crystal
okay but what I'm saying is when you take a look at his games quickly, ie on the stats page there is no nuance it is just "lol int"
tulip osprey
Lol it’s sólo q
No one is gonna play the game correctly no matter the elo he abuses that, massive W
slim terrace
"LCS" by the way
6/10 former LCK players tfw
at least here we have 2 north american players 
slim terrace
also somehow I'm in cardboard elo again, their bot lane were actual bots
slim terrace
also twitch support is fun
sullen crystal
twitch support 
slim terrace
it looks kinda troll but I get it, you do ridiculous damage with nashor's
sullen crystal
oh I just hate twitch
slim terrace
oh yeah fair
the champ is annoying as hell to deal with cause you can just die out of nowhere
sullen crystal
indeedy
dapper kite
When the ass is assin
sullen crystal
but yeah tonight i will make it my mission to remember how to play league
slim terrace
When the ass is assin
when the ass can't be tracked via conventional warding
prisma ravine
Aaaand ranked continues to be cursed
Flex matchmaking was good for a while, then it went to shit
slim terrace
gbay has some seriously high quality documentaries, this one was very enjoyable but pretty sad
wheat notch
yea i kinda ironically stopped watching him as much once he moved away from gameplay
but this stuff is great
prisma ravine
... ok so turrets being on a cycle is already idiotic
But why the fuck did my opponent get rewarded for idiotic turret dives by getting the perfect cycle each time?
Dude was hard throwing but won instead through sheer insane luck
Hate that I lost a promo series to this dumb shit
prisma ravine
Turrets always fire at the same time every game
You ever noticed how sometimes you walk into turret range and it attacks you instantly, and sometimes it takes a while?
slim terrace
o rip
prisma ravine
Yeah its just ... weird
Everything else just attacks ASAP when in range
But turrets attack only on pre-determined times
slim terrace
nothing quite like coming back from going 0/9 in lane
we died so much cause zilean actually plays zilean, but then everyone on our team scaled even the shojin duskblade nasus
dapper kite
wheat notch
Rakan mid reborn? 
chilly ivy
prob just a smurf
inner vapor
did horribly this game but whatever
it was tough tho
they weret all rly good
and im rly bad
wheat notch
All it takes to win lane is to get matched into Ziggs' easiest matchup, then have them grief after being solo-killed twice
dapper kite
eternal palm
XL are genuinely terrible
and I'll be damned if exakick and Doss haven't looked like the best bot lane in the LEC after 2 weeks
wheat notch
Why the fuck does Fizz E slow
as if it isn't one of the most broken spells in game already
prisma ravine
So the Lee buff is them giving him +20% scaling on his Q
... the ability that already hits harder than any AD ult in the game that isnt channeled 7 levels earlier
slim terrace
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/10q957d/lck_pro_player_quotes_on_adc_support_meta/ I'm surprised nofe was the only one who brought up the glaive thing cause that item is actually busted, but it's cool to get some insight on this
prisma ravine
Interesting that they focus on dirk
Maybe its time to give dirk lower lethality on ranged users
wheat notch
"Maybe you should pick real adc" -veigar that shit the lane
I need to learn to dodge shit comps god
sullen crystal
wheat notch
Good .
sullen crystal
Not good!
wheat notch
Pantheon deserves nothign
This item is so fucking bad
I even built it in its ideal circumstances
dim kindle
imo buffing pantheon to somehow change bot support meta was not a good idea and im glad they realized so
wheat notch
Anyways Seraph's still blows, just had to test twice
dim kindle
Seraphs is pretty good imo, how come you dont like it on ziggs?
wheat notch
these numbers are so bogus 😮💨
wheat notch
Seraphs is pretty good imo, how come you dont like it on ziggs?
sflame better spike, tear delays other spikes, shield wont save you when it matters bc you dont have low enough cds or good enough self peel like ryze or kassa would
like i can acknowledge it being a better item on some champs, just not ziggs
124 (a bit higher with cookies but i dont remember how much) ap is 'cool' but
i dont think its enuogh
dim kindle
I get the self peel angle but i do feel like the shields gonna make a big difference in enough situations
wheat notch
ur mana costs also lower the shield
because your E is 110 mana when maxed :)))))))))
dim kindle
hard to figure out though because way too many variables in a teamfight
wheat notch
its been really small in some cases and i go wow this shield might as well not have happened
I would rather use Zhonya's and even then I don't want to use Zhonya's
because I want to go full damage, I am a glass cannon after all
so my 'ideal' build is just . <Mythic> Shadowflame Rabadon's Void Staff Morellonomicon
replace one of the last 2 with Mejai's depending on gamestate
dim kindle
honestly in league very often what you are comfortable with will work out even if it may not be optimal
wheat notch
I would rather use Zhonya's and even then I don't *want* to use Zhonya's
What I hate most about Zhonya's btw, the champs I've considered it into the most are also champions that don't get fully cockblocked by it
(Vlad, Fizz)
Armor will surely save me
dim kindle
zhonyas shark damage should at least do something no?
dim kindle
ah
wheat notch
i want to fully abuse an item if i buy it
dim kindle
yeah honestly zhonyas most likely shouldnt be an armor item anymore
times of building early armguard are long gone anyway
wheat notch
It doesn't help that they've nerfed that item like 3 times
dim kindle
It should probably just lose the armor and be cheaper or maybe give 200 health instead
wheat notch
You know what I'd really like
I just expressed this in Ziggs Mains
I want Seraph's to Not Be The Only Mana Legendary For Mages
remove the hp and haste on horizon give me 350 mana instead or like mana on zhonyas
so seraphs isnt just 124 ap
dim kindle
i dont hate that
wheat notch
The only like relative problem is
Ryze jumpscare
But, you know 
Health on mage items also only feels bad tbqh
Like I get it's to """"""""combat""""""""" damage creep or whatever but honestly I'd want Cut Down to be even better 
dim kindle
rod just simply shouldnt be a mythic
it pretty much contradicts what they wanted mythics to be
wheat notch
They might feel the need to overnerf it if it was a legendary though 
dim kindle
and if it stays a mythic itll never be built by anything other than 2-3 champs unless the item is so overbuffed that then everyone builds it always
wheat notch
but yeah
dim kindle
I mean you just remove the level up bonus, remove one of the passives
and its probably okay
wheat notch
Probably, but I doubt they'd do it anyway 🥱
dim kindle
riot has stated that mythics dont have to be the most powerful items as a reason for why botrk isnt a mythic
so i dont see why rod cant be a legendary
wheat notch
Does anyone build Riftmaker I feel like I've seen that item exactly once and it was on Gwen
such a Strange item
dim kindle
its like
wheat notch
idk what its doing there
wheat notch
morde does not build that
ive had my morde main friend tell me this ! !(hes like gold)
dim kindle
i mean he definitely does
jaksho was better
pre changes
almost always
but it does make him a stronger duelist than jaksho
wheat notch
(note: the virtue game was unserious he just wanted to see what the hype about the item was in general i think lmao)
dim kindle
think virtue would actually be okay if it didnt actively have countersynergy with morde lol
dim kindle
before this season it was pretty much exclusively riftmaker with protobelt also being an option for gap closing
wheat notch
I assume that's why
wheat notch
🔥
dim kindle
think if you want a selfish tank mythic its a different choice
as of right now id say jaksho is probably still usually better than riftmaker
wheat notch
lemme check if i can see pre jacksho games on his acc
dim kindle
but if you want to just solo lane run it down riftmaker does it better
i dont really need to see it
dim kindle
it was sunfire for a while too
dim kindle
but most of the time its definitely been riftmaker or protobelt
over total amount of time
dim kindle
what stats?
I think tank mythics are so much better on him now because of how good demonic is with it later on
and his 2 item spike with rylas tank mythic
just becoming a total unit
wheat notch
just like the pen + mythic passive sounds . a bit underwhelming on him
bc his e is darius e
dim kindle
with how morde plays now yeah
wheat notch
i dont see no darius player hop on last whisper smh
dim kindle
his identity shifted a bit
overall a tankier playstyle has become better on him
esp for jungle morde
wheat notch
Oh yeah do you know the answer to a burning rumor I keep hearing people flipflop on
does mpen go into negatives or not
ive had ppl say it does and ppl say it doesnt whats the truth 
dim kindle
you mean can you do extra damage?
wheat notch
Like if mpen would make someone go into 0 would it be able to go like -10 and do even more dmg
dim kindle
as in enemy is -10 magic resist so you do more damage?
wheat notch
yeah is that real
dim kindle
it is real in the game because minions and monsters have that mechanic
for champions I am actually not quite sure
I know some jungle camps used to have negative magic resist to help ap junglers
actually do more damage to them
wheat notch
ik superminions have -mr but I remember being told that it doesn't work like that
then I had a masters player tell me it does
then I saw people on reddit say it doesn't
then I heard someone else recently say it does
and I'm just
🧍♀️
like will luden sflame viod morello make me do super true dmg or is too much pen going to be my downfall
dim kindle
I feell ike I remember a vandril video where he played around with that but that also included bugs
generally you will never reduce someone to actually 0
wheat notch
its relatively likely with sflame no
if they dont have mr
like
6 from luden, 5 x how many legendaries from luden, up to 20 from sflame, 18 from boots, 40% void and 10 from morello
dim kindle
my gut instict says that unless other things are playing into it you basically can only just do true damage indirectly
percent pen gets applied first and then the rest gets cut by your flat
wheat notch
bc i remember there being like arguments in a sflame vs void argument i think?
that luden sflame sorcshoes void was overkill
and isnt making the best out of ur gold or smthg
dim kindle
eh basically what it really boils down to is that void will outperform any flat pen builds the moment they build one real mr item but pen items have better item components to snowball with
same is true for ad carries
collector was a frequent build because going dirk pickaxe after mythic is super strong while going last whisper crit cloak after mythic will make you do negative damage
dim kindle
but the moment you go against anything with real resistances the percent pen item instantly outperforms
void components are pretty bad
but its not as bad as with ldr
y
wheat notch
can i say btw
its so pathetic how the best ap items have only gotten worse to their pre item rework counterparts
id almost just want a system revert
Liandry's Torment my beloved...
dim kindle
I feel like liandry probably shouldnt be a mythic either
because like
either its objectively correct to build or its not
and that isnt really all that interesting
not true for all champions but for most control mages
wheat notch
its so pathetic how the best ap items have only gotten worse to their pre item r...
Void Staff is 150g more expensive and has 5 less AP than it did pre-rework, and Rabadon's is 5% less effective than it used to be
dim kindle
I honestly cant tell you why for that
wheat notch
It's insane how on Rab rework they made it 200 gold more expensive too
until they realised that was dumb
dim kindle
I think that was supposed to be to account for mythic passives or something and idk
wheat notch
Yeah but like for Void it's just been continuously nerfed
dim kindle
issue is just like that mages arent actually bad pretty much ever they just feel awful to play in solo q when people just play cod team death match around you and you get to watch while you wait
dim kindle
the 12.10 makes sense since thats durability patch
wheat notch
I don't think it's that tall of an ask to get 5 AP it used to have back 😔 it wasn't that busted 2nd surely not
bc i think thats why they reduced ap
dim kindle
could be
dim kindle
guess they are talking about third item raba vs third item void because void was usually actually better but hard to tell unless you want to do math every game
wheat notch
ic
related to pen:
There was a 4th Legend rune on PBE that gave pen right I'm not making that up?
I could swear it existed but I couldn't find it online anywhere
sullen crystal
When was this?
wheat notch
oh forever ago i dont remember the last time i actually logged into pbe
sullen crystal
yeah I think there was some rune that was obviously really good tested but never added
wheat notch
But I distinctly remember seeing that thing there and was like "wow this is so cool"
sullen crystal
idk if it was pen
wheat notch
and then it never got added lmfao
sullen crystal
was it this
https://www.reddit.com/r/zedmains/comments/j2pnft/legend_destroyer_new_precision_tree_rune_grants/
wheat notch
YEAH
dim kindle
yeah this was real
dim kindle
think it mightve made secondary precision tree a little too appealing
wheat notch
yeah
I only bother taking Prec 2nd if I can play Cut Down
because everything other than PoM is disgusting for me
dim kindle
runes are generally in a decent spot id say i just find them pretty boring
wheat notch
prolly
dim kindle
every tree should have 4 keystones by now
sullen crystal
I need to start playing again but idk which role to jump back into
wheat notch
Aery damage should be rebuffed 😀
sullen crystal
probs not adc or supp because i am bad at clicking
wheat notch
give me Runes Reforged: release aery scorch that was insane
prisma ravine
think it mightve made secondary precision tree a little too appealing
It would've been turbo-busted lmao
Thats like, the max mythic passive of Eclipse
wheat notch
2 panth q's were crazy
dim kindle
jokes aside the jgl changes did succeed in smoothing out the jungle experience especially for new players and didnt really dumb it down
wheat notch
Thats like, the max mythic passive of Eclipse
it says bonus pen so i assume it only affects. non-base stats
dim kindle
sure tops fine to it just becomea very miserable very fast when you're outclassed
the worst out of all roles pretty much
but its good in the sense that you can just do your own thing as you get used to the game again
wheat notch
Anyway all I found out from trollbuilding in norms is that I can win with anything and I can't use normals testing for ranked
dim kindle
normals are good for building confidence
wheat notch
Confidence isn't enough when I feel like my entire build path is Wrong
Like I have a negative winrate for a reason, and I can't tell if it's due to my itemisation, my runes, my actual play, or all three.
dim kindle
think id just focus on like the basics again
good farming, good ward spots, good recall timings
tracking your jgl and enemy jgler
wheat notch
I can say farming isn't the issue at least
~~I have Lethal Efficiency in Challenger-tier for a reason 😤 ~~
dim kindle
and if you are doubting your runes and items copy someone you trust until you feel confident again
wheat notch
Problem is I don't trust anyone
u.gg build looks like shit
probuilds looks like shit
The only Ziggs player I trusted doesn't post videos or streams so I can't netdeck him
dim kindle
in the grand scheme thats not whats losing you games anyway
wheat notch
prob
My entire gimmick rn is focused around a good recall after clearing wave 5 so I can buy Chapter
dim kindle
imo i find mage items & runes pretty simple
dim kindle
its very big especially mid
and actually placing useful wards
mid has become very closeknit to the jungler
wheat notch
I will simply not die to a gank
dim kindle
playing with and for your jungler
wheat notch
ok to be fair this was bullshit he was sitting between raptors and the river wall at level 1
so I walk up even a little bit and he just jumps me
thought flashing was unnecessary bc i wouldnt be able to lane with 20-30% hp into cassio anyway
so i died tp'd in, flashed, died anywya
(he died too for the 2nd one ,to be fair)
Something I have noticed that I think is really bad is that I take trades I think I win, lose them, and then my resources are too low to farm properly up for chapter
wheat notch
OK
TRIED SERAPH'S AGAIN (IN RANKED)
THIS ITEM IS ASSSSSSS LMAO
Cookies only add 2 more AP to its passive
I didn't even trigger the shield once this game
Luden's was OK
Did a total of 2800 dmg in 27 mins
cursive falcon
how do you hit bombs consistently @wheat notch
wheat notch
how do you hit bombs consistently <@265960037552357376>
you throw
👍
for lane it's best to q at minions when they're close enough to get fucked by the AoE, especially if they're in an auto animation
prisma ravine
Kha mid is still fun
But man, them killing Eclipse made the itemisation feel rough
eternal palm
But man, them killing Eclipse made the itemisation feel rough
By all accounts, eclipse is better now
The 15 ability haste is more combat efficient than 7% omni
prisma ravine
For non-assassins, maybe
For assassins?
It previously had a niche that the other items didnt fill
Now? There is 0 reason to ever pick Eclipse over Prowlers
eternal palm
It’s still better. Passive got a whole 2 seconds shaved off it too
prisma ravine
Because Prowlers straight up has strictly better stats
And the gap isnt a small one either
prisma ravine
First of all, he can, second of all, you have to set yourself back way too much with Eclipse
90% gold efficiency is embarassing
eternal palm
Gold efficiency isn’t the end all be all stat. If that was the case, people wouldn’t be getting memed on for rushing chempunk on vi over black cleaver
prisma ravine
Except there is a reason the Chempunk rush is better and sees more use at the highest levels
Gold efficiency is a big deal
When you buy it, Prowlers is a huge spike
Eclipse means you are straight up falling behind
Its mythic passive is still good
But it takes too long for that to come online, and until then youre using the worst mythic by a country mile
eternal palm
You need to educate yourself with some of the best analysts in the world, along with pros who admit they only build items because they “feel” good and have no thought process behind as to why they’re building it.
prisma ravine
The "best analysts in the world" that are telling them to build Chempunk, hence why every player in every region builds it?
Of the 47 games that Vi has this season, 46 rush Chempunk, and only one went Black Cleaver
And lost
Eclipse has only 2/3 the lethality prowlers has
And while its mythic passive eventually becomes good, early on its worse than Prowlers too
And assassins need to be strong in the early to mid game, lategame they fall off
To give you a basic idea, a burst combo on a level 9 Viktor with Eclipse does about 833 damage
The same combo with Prowlers does 950
With your Q doing about 232 damage and your attacks doing about 103, the prowlers combo leaves the Viktor dead to a Q + auto
Which with the passive and W slow is easily done
By comparison the Eclipse combo needs at least 2 Qs and an auto
Or a Q and 4 autos
Thats a huge difference in your ability to assassinate
dapper kite
Pfft, everybody knows that the mythic you for dure should be building radiant virtue
prisma ravine
Eclipse is, from what I can see, good on a couple bruisers
Riven apparently?
Riven, Pantheon, Hecarim and maybe Xin Zhao, those 4 are good with eclipse
Everyone else shouldnt be buying it
Realistically unless they give it back the lethality and make its shield scale with lethality, its gonna stay a bruiser mythic forever
Or hell, make it give omnivamp based on lethality
dapper kite
Everyone else shouldnt be buying it
You cannot stop me from buying it on ww(for one game before i decided that its too bad evwn for my standards)
Also geez its late, you should really go to sleep
dapper kite
I am become eepy, gooer to bed
sullen crystal
dapper kite
also that meteor showered tooltip has very big curious energy
eternal palm
the only bad part is he should have gone rabaddons or void staff 3rd and not built horizon focus. everything else is standard
also it's an unga bunga comp vs a poke comp, he absolutely should have gone void 3rd
eternal palm
wheat notch
the only bad part is he should have gone rabaddons or void staff 3rd and not bui...
seraphs and horizon are both dogass
Seraph's being the most built 2nd item somehow doesn't make it good
eternal palm
I mean if you say so. You know, just because you don't like an item, it doesn't make it dog shit. Same way you rushing shadowflame to me is seen as a greedy build that you can only get away with in solo q
wheat notch
There is no universe in which Seraph's is a better 2nd than Shadowflame
(on Ziggs)
bffr
The 24 (26 with cookies) AP it provides over Shadowflame is not going to outclass the pen
and ideally, you shouldn't even be triggering the shield
wheat notch
Like this game I literally activated it 0 times
chilly ivy
and from what i can tell from experience you don't really need that much mana
eternal palm
why are you even going cookies when its been the worst rune in the game for almost 1.5 years
wheat notch
You don't
chilly ivy
wintry's just pointing out the maximised scenario
and how seraphs is still worse there
the mana is unnecesary, and the haste is negligible
wheat notch
why are you even going cookies when its been the worst rune in the game for almo...
Because I misremembered how much AP it gave before (I thought it was worth like 10-20~, but I must've miscalc'd) and also that it's still picked on him unbelievably often 😀
like
i bet guma has cookies
that game
eternal palm
probably, but as its been stated, LCK/LPL are the worst when it comes to itemizing/drafting properly, it's the one thing LEC/LCS have over them, and i don't even think LCS even applies anymore with some of the shit i saw the first week
chilly ivy
it's 37 with liandrys and no cookies
wheat notch
wym
chilly ivy
was this @ me or thugs?
chilly ivy
oh yeah i did
i got onto practice mode and bought liandrys seraphs
so ig add 6 to that
chilly ivy
so yeah it's 20 or so ap vs 10-20 pen
wheat notch
it's not good enough a stat stick anymore
Shadowflame really just crept like all the options
sflame has a broken back from being the only good mage legendary fr
wheat notch
God this is the most insane comeback
Ziggs siege really does just go ham
We went from mid inner to Nexus after one winning teamfight
wheat notch
probably, but as its been stated, LCK/LPL are the worst when it comes to itemizi...
The same Europeans also take Cookies on Ziggs, btw.
eternal palm
Well that was a waste of time. Practice tool dps, runes are comet/manaflow/transcendence/gathering storm, level 11 ziggs.
liandry/sorc pen boots/seraphs dps - 330-335
liandry/sorc pen boots/shadowflame dps - 315-325
no ult used, maximizing passive uptime and assuming all abilities hit
wheat notch
Into a dummy with no mr?
eternal palm
you wanted raw numbers,i gave them to you
wheat notch
WHAT ARE YOU TALKING ABOUT
OF COURSE SERAPH'S WILL OUTDAMAGE SHADOWFLAME IF THERE'S NO MR FOR SFLAME PEN TO PENETRATE??????
EVERY CHAMP IN THE GAME HAS MAGIC RESIST WHETHER THEY BUILD IT OR NOT MAN
wheat notch
shadowflame into a tank with 1 mr item?!?
Me walking up to Plato: Behold, a Tank
eternal palm
interesting, let me know what laning phase lasts till you get your 2nd item
anyways doing recalcs with dummies with 50 mr
prisma ravine
Pretty sure Wintrys point is that since magic pen cant go below 0
Testing on a dummy with 0 MR distorts the numbers
slim terrace
idk why laning phase is relevant here when this is kata at level 1, she's gonna have even more mr after leveling up outside of lane? 🤨
prisma ravine
Oh yeah, Katarina gets MR by level doesnt she
wheat notch
idk why laning phase is relevant here when this is kata at level 1, she's gonna ...
lv5 btw
prisma ravine
Oh this is a big difference
314 on Seraphs on a Q vs 356 with shadowflame
Vs 50 MR on two items
So unless you want the shield, which is quite valuable
wheat notch
God my mmr is so fucked
This is what I get for getting my first winstreak in forever
eternal palm
where are you getting these numbers?
Dummy with 50 MR vs liandrys, seraphs, sorc pen boots on level 12 ziggs - 250 dps
Dummy with 50 mr vs liandrys, sflame (with max pen always on), sorc pen boots on level 12 ziggs -263dps
also added void staff in to see what the numbers would look like vs the same 50 mr dummy
seraphs - 320 dps
sflame (with max pen always on) - 330-331 dps
prisma ravine
Im going just Q instead of DPS and I bought Ludens because Liandrys Ive found to have inconsistent ticks
eternal palm
needless to say, these numbers only get closer if you buy rabaddons
eternal palm
Anyways, point is, with max pen always on, you're out dpsing seraphs via 10-13, and that's assuming you're always hitting a low health target/shielded target vs what will most likely end up being a 400-450 shield from seraph's embrace
eternal palm
Sure, but you have to take into account who you’re actually hitting in team fights. Most of the time you’re helping mow down front line, throwing ult at back line to zone them off the fights. Sflame seems best vs mostly melee comps or vs enchanter supports (karma, lulu, soraka, Yuumi) if you always want to maximize your dps
Unless wintry is playing some secret flanking Ziggs strat that I’ve never heard of. Most straight up 5v5s you’ll barely ever be hitting your ideal target
prisma ravine
Shadowflame is good pretty much always tbh
eternal palm
If you’re not hitting max pen on shadow flame, you’re roughly doing the same dps as seraphs without the utility of the shield
Your DPS on seraphs is always guaranteed (assuming you hit your skills of course) and that is probably why you see it as the 2nd most built item on Ziggs.
It’s the same argument as aery vs comet. If comet always hits it always out dps’ aery, but aery is the non conditional, guaranteed damage.
Just don’t ask me about first strike because A. I think that rune is terrible, and B. Ziggs should never be taking it over the other 2 options
wheat notch
So unless you want the shield, which is quite valuable
Not on Ziggs!!! The one time I bought it in ranked it triggered ZEROOOOO times
You should never be in a position to get the shield
and if you're in a position to get shielded
you're dead anyways
or your comp is balls enough to where ur teammates cant prevent u from getting nae naed i guess
sorry that's just rephrasing what i said already my bad
wheat notch
What
Do you mean towers? You don't need to do even more dmg to towers when your empowered autos will do 1k/ea in endgame
I don't think the 24-26 AP you get over Shadowflame is that valuable for towerbusting
prisma ravine
Baron too
prisma ravine
Ye
wheat notch
I still don't think it matters to that extent
if I wanted to kill objectives that badly I'd buy like Lich Bane or Nashor's Tooth
(I wouldn't buy either)
I'd consider LB if they reverted Ziggs' range to 575/overbuffed it to 600 but I know that's never going to happen, it would also murder botlane
wheat notch
Ability Haste is not easy on the brain
Just been looking at the numbers of Horizon's haste vs Shadowflame bc people brought up the argument that cdr good maybe even better than the passive that does 5x the damage of horizon but
god this is incomprehensible to me
Liandry's + Shadowflame = 25 AH = 20% CDR
Liandry's + Shadowflame + AH rune = 33 AH = 25% CDR
Liandry's + Shadowflame + Transcendence = 35 AH = 26% CDR
Liandry's + Shadowflame + Transcendence + AH rune = 30% CDR
Additional Mythic Passive AH = 30 (23%) 35 (26%) 40 (29%)
Additional Mythic Passive AH (with AH rune) = 38 (28%) 43 (30%) 48 (32%)
Additional Mythic Passive AH (with Transcendence) = 40 (29%) 45 (31%) 50 (33%)
Additional Mythic Passive AH (with AH rune, Transcendence) = 48 (32%) 53 (35%) 58 (37%)
Liandry's + Horizon Focus = 40 AH = 29% CDR
Liandry's + Horizon Focus + AH rune = 48 AH = 32% CDR
Liandry's + Horizon Focus + Transcendence = 50 AH = 33% CDR
Liandry's + Horizon Focus + Transcendence + AH rune = 58 AH = 37% CDR
Additional Mythic Passive AH = 45 (31%) 50 (33%) 55 (35%)
Additional Mythic Passive AH (with AH rune) = 53 (35%) 58 (37%) 63 (39%)
Additional Mythic Passive AH (with Transcendence) = 55 (35%) 60 (37%) 65 (39%)
Additional Mythic Passive AH (with AH rune, Transcendence) = 63 (39%) 68 (40%) 73 (42%)
humble glacier
wheat notch
Spreadsheeted it
eternal palm
So the extra cdr means that every 9 q’s you’re getting an extra q in, hardly worth it
wheat notch
I guess it's more defensible with Luden 😮💨
prisma ravine
Well, thankfully the navori build sucks on assassins
But it was worth trying nonetheless
wheat notch
Spreadsheeted it
After some experimentation I felt like I wanted to determine what it'd take to have 100% uptime on E, and the answers are 🥁 🥁 🥁
Liandry + Horizon Focus + both haste runes
Liandry + Shadowflame, full build + both haste runes
Liandry + Shadowflame + Lucidity Boots + 8 AH
severe cairn
well these LCK matches are pretty funny
Sylas getting consistently engaged on by 2-3 people and living for way longer than he should've because of RoA and Zhonya's feels super bad
but if you nerf RoA then my main cass gets nerfed so 🤫
eternal palm
The RoA healing is actually pretty insane
Had a game on swain yesterday where roa passive healed me for 6k
prisma ravine
Over the entire game?
eternal palm
Yes, over the entire game
dim kindle
effective healing?
eternal palm
I mean it was only a 26 minute game, so I would say 6k healing in that amount of time from the passive alone is pretty effective yes
dim kindle
thats not what i mean
there is healing and there is effective healing
healing stat counts all theoretical healing so e.g. if you are full hp and rod procs it still tracks it as healing
effective healing is the stat that only tracks healing that actually did something
you can see the difference in the post game stats but not all items/runes track both i think
prisma ravine
What is this even supposed to be
wheat notch
About what specifically
prisma ravine
I mean there is so much on the list that is just really hilariously wrong, especially if its meant as a pro play tier list
slim terrace
bold take coming from you
anyways sounds like someone's never watched LS content before
wheat notch
How about you try listening to his opinions 😀
prisma ravine
Katarina in A
wheat notch
>Katarina in A
he highlights her as a topic
prisma ravine
I know
But his reasoning makes no sense
And its like he ignores that Katarina now is weaker than previous versions that ... saw 0 play in competitive
Last time Kat saw any play at all in competitive was 1 game in season 8
Viktor in B and Galio in C are also very funny
wheat notch
thanks riot but last i checked it was February
wheat notch
Hey LPL doesn't have 13.1b right
prisma ravine
It should?
wheat notch
bc I'm checking a vod w ziggs and being so confused by morello 2nd
fandom tagged it as 13.1
eternal palm
And its like he ignores that Katarina now is weaker than previous versions that ...
If you ever follow any LS content he constantly highlights that pro play is very much about comfort or copycat picks. A lot more champions are viable then what is picked. Anyways he already showed you guys this while he was coach of C9
prisma ravine
The position he was fired from?
eternal palm
You do know, he wasn’t fired based on performance right?
C9 with LS and C9 without him were 2 completely different teams
dim kindle
comp is on 13.1 yes
prisma ravine
I thought they couldnt prevent hotfixes from going live in competitive, guess I was off
prisma ravine
C9 with LS and C9 without him were 2 completely different teams
Im pretty sure he didnt get more than 3 weeks
dim kindle
13.1b is basically some weird hybrid of a real patch and a hotifx patch because of the issues theyve had with the cyberattack
prisma ravine
And after he was let go, Cloud 9 would go on a 4 week winstreak without dropping a game
Besides, this "comfort pick" narrative, while funny, is hilariously wrong
wheat notch
anyway unlucky that the pro builds fucjing suck
slim terrace
is it even worth it to rush second with the flat pen
wheat notch
wheat notch
is it even worth it to rush second with the flat pen
no but it makes marginally more sense to rush pre 13.1b which is why i was asking
like i sympathise trying to get 40% faster even if i think it sucks
post I'd just be sitting on orb instead of doing morello lmao
morello was always last slot for me anyway
sometimes 2nd to last if i didn't need void asap
eternal palm
mid tierlist
I can vouch for both rumble mid and rumble jungle. I played both a decent amount, feels strong at all stages of the game even when behind
chilly ivy
oh i forgor to put my last ziggs game
😔
however
gamer
i think ziggy is treating me good
@wheat notch thanks for showing me the way kiddo
wheat notch
chilly ivy
oh and riot gave me a skin today
so i'm not skinless anymore
and also my 4th lux skin lest i forget she exists
severe cairn
you got beaten by the best build in the game
timber patio
slim terrace
y did you buy it then
wheat notch
y did you buy it then
It looked better on skinspotlights
u cant really evaluate "how satisfying is my q"
slim terrace
rip
wheat notch
Really love when people just decide to ban other's hovers and troll the lobby
very normal behaviour
Ziggs isn't even a bad pick
wheat notch
rip
I refunded it and bought Battle Boss again
the regular auto kinda sucks but everything else is much better
W doesn't look like a piss tsunami
slim terrace
everything's irrelevant compared to arcane tbh
wheat notch
I hate arcanist
wheat notch
the only good thing it has is ult
slim terrace
the only good thing it has is everything
slim terrace
damn 😔 I can't believe you'd say this
wheat notch
oh the 2nd only good thing about it is it has a hat
the hat ziggs skins get style points
hextech is my 1st place major is my 2nd i wouldve bought major if it was in store
and i dont have the ME for hex (its not even in store anyway)
yeah god arcanist W is so ugly
e is better than i remember
autos feel weak
slim terrace
??
prisma ravine
Its a bee themed skin
So Im making bee puns
I do hope they make more bee skins tbh
I want a bee Swain skin
Or maybe a Swain Wasp skin
dim kindle
you still have refund tokens?
slim terrace
you get a new one each year
severe cairn
It looked better on skinspotlights <:cheems:683182129668292685>
u should sign up for PBE
severe cairn
you get a new one each year
not anymore
they give you 3 refund tokens this year and they're discontinuing it
slim terrace
honestly I haven't used it for a while
severe cairn
I did, I'm mad
slim terrace
rip
severe cairn
they're discontinuing it for zero reason
sinful frost
allegedly
it makes things easier to track on their end
I forgor their exact reason
something like
tracking who needs new refund tokens and who doesn't is messy
so this year everyone gets three
and no more
chilly ivy
I refunded it and bought Battle Boss again
hey, i got the same skin
riot rng'd me into it and i'm happy
wheat notch
bb is my fav modern skin
the candy skin sounds gross me out, odyssey sucks, bzzziggs sucks
dapper kite
wheat notch
Went 1/5/1 ended up being the reason we ended the game
I'm very amused that Nami called me an inter and said to report me, then honored me post-match
Like I get it, I did awfully
but lmao
severe cairn
must be nice winning coinflips
severe cairn
must be nice
severe cairn
now imagine that but you lose 10 games in a row too
sorry just not in the best of moods rn
it's not even particularly that I'm throwing games, everyone is just a sociopath
I'm encountering issues that I shouldn't even need to worry about until an actually good rank
queues dodged one after another and then I get autofilled into counterpick
is it like this over there in EU
wheat notch
i dont know i get my primary often enough
severe cairn
I hate secondary roles I just wanna play mid
I don't want to get autofilled into a lane I don't play and then automatically lose 'cause I'm at a disadvantage
wheat notch
then dodge
severe cairn
I used my dodge timer hours ago because eveyrone was calling me the n word for locking in yone
maybe it's just smurfs being smurfs in early season
chilly ivy
i've pretty much played ziggs this season in solo queue, and when picking mid first, bot second, you get your primary often enough
my only other few games are support when we have a better mid
wheat notch
i mean bot is least picked in euw
dapper kite
^
wheat notch
since it gives u fill protection
dapper kite
As a dedicated autofill main
8/10 games i get bot
The other is support and sometimes jgl
severe cairn
well then I guess I'm just unlucky
wheat notch
u should sign up for PBE
also i have one but i cba to use it bc
- lol waiting for all the updates
- lol na servers
sullen crystal
It's manageable but I never would want to play on them
eternal palm
15 minute games, how nice
prisma ravine
Damn, I just got less LP than intended from a stomping victory as Kha because of the weird patch rollback bug >.>
prisma ravine
I find Kaisa only has 2 skins I think are better than base skin with the helmet on
This is not one of them
wheat notch
It's good to be back
wheat notch
PC diff jesus christ
The 0/8 game was me streaming to another friend and I got tilted
eternal palm
When you tilt, do you cuss in English or Latvian
wheat notch
Depends 👍
severe cairn
This is not one of them
I actually played a couple ranked games to test it out
I absolutely love it
it is a direct improvement to all of the animations of base Kai'sa
sinful frost
were your lane opponents also autofilled?
eternal palm
Wukong supp works with senna, but I’m assuming you were Ziggs and shit was just fucked
chilly ivy
They did good damage and was good in lane
Problem was the tunnel vision and not protecting me from the 10 kill rene that one shot me with w
Surprise, surprise, both my mid and top fed
I did the most dmg in the game tho, as is tradition
I'm fine with unexpected support picks if you make it work in lane, but you sure as hell have to stick to your role post that as well
Like, ngl, if he ulted not their 3 ppl backline and the renek instead, that was an easy win
They had no other ppl that did dmg, besides ig sylas
The renek bought MoM so i simply can't deal with him alone, even if ignoring the fact he was hunting my ass like there's no tomorrow
Flash e empowered w q killed me most fights
eternal palm
You going manamune build? Or just straight up lethality
eternal palm
Hydra isn’t worth it for a lot of champs after it became lifesteal from omnivamp
eternal palm
For what it’s worth, riot found a way to nerf an item that didn’t include completely killing it
So that’s a positive for once
prisma ravine
Otherwise its the standard
Prowlers, Manamune, Ghostblade, Seryldas
Ive tried Axiom since it gives 18 lethality now but the passive is so pointless
eternal palm
Eh, once you have mythic + manamune + serylda’s there’s no champion that really wants to take your damage anyways
After ghost blade, I would consider edge of night or GA
prisma ravine
I tend to prefer Maw
eternal palm
Maw’s an option too
prisma ravine
Edge is into specific comps and GA I just dont like much
5 minute cooldown is rough
DD is an option into heavy AD comps since it gives a good amount of armour
eternal palm
Yeah, I mean standard GA gaming is buy it, proc it, sell it, buy a different item lol
prisma ravine
I wish I had a better mythic to buy tbh
Prowlers is kinda eh since youre more sustain-y, but its got the best passive
Duskblade would be fine if it didnt give you ability haste as a mythic passive >.>
But yeah, its fun
Not good, but no one at this elo knows how to punish it lmao
eternal palm
It’s fine as long as you’re not vs mages or god forbid, Zac mid
prisma ravine
Oh I have picked it only vs mages
prisma ravine
New patchnotes
They (thankfully) pulled back on the Lee buffs a little, though its still a bit insane
dim kindle
buffing lee sin atm seems fine to me
not to mention his playstyle is intended to be nerfed on this patch too
since he is definitely a 3 camp into gank candidate
I like that phreak mentioned being mindful of not promoting lane lee sin
prisma ravine
Buffing Lee is fine, though theres like 10 junglers that should be buffed before Lee
But buffing his damage is stupid
Hes already a bruiser out-assassining assassins
And his Q already hits harder than every non-channeled AD ult at level 16 at level 9
eternal palm
I played Lee yesterday and his damage felt okay? Nowhere near to what it was during his lane dominance
prisma ravine
So funny thing about that ... they barely nerfed his damage then
Its like 10 per level on the ability you max last now
But to give you an idea, Talons ult, which hits pretty hard, does 360 + 2.0 per bonus AD damage.
Lee Sins Q does anywhere from 310 + 2.0 per bonus AD (basically never) to 465 + 3.0 per bonus AD damage (also basically never) with an average of about 390 + 2.5 per bonus AD damage
Thats right, Lees Q does on average more damage than an assassins ult, and 7 levels earlier
wheat notch
Somehow I don't think abilities exist in a vaccuum
Or else you'd see me whining about how Zoe Q does more damage at Level 9 than Ziggs R does when maxed
eternal palm
Yeah like, a lot of talon’s damage comes from his passive, his ult damage is nice, but the ability it provides for getting in and out is the better use of his ultimate
wheat notch
how motivating
sullen crystal
always the nunus
wheat notch
prisma ravine
Yeah like, a lot of talon’s damage comes from his passive, his ult damage is nic...
His passive does less damage than his ult
Surprisingly enough
wheat notch
That's not the point 
prisma ravine
Anyway, the problem is Lee is a bruiser
Who also bursts harder than assassins
With less AD
And more reliably
severe cairn
had a nightmare there was a league champion who could remove scaling from abilities
wheat notch
👍
dim kindle
hope tooltips are fixed with this patch