A top 3 mid laner in the world (at the time probably 2nd, arguably 1st)
#League of Legends
eternal palm
wheat notch
u cant make me trust pro builds lol
unless they play them a shit ton in soloq or smthg
also he literally has horizon?
XD?
eternal palm
Oh, he must have bought it last lmfao
Point stands, if he bought it as a 3rd or 4th item, you’re asking for niche that other items can fill
wheat notch
wow he bought void over horizon very indicative of the items power
eternal palm
Well yes, why wouldn’t you build void 3rd
wheat notch
for 2nd item*
eternal palm
2nd varies depending on enemy team
But you should always build void 3rd unless you’re vs a full squishy team
wheat notch
what
he bought void exactly bc their team had 2 tanks
idk if i can call udyr a tank but hes built like one
eternal palm
That’s why I said building it 2nd varies
Udyr was most def a tank back then
It was chemtank into full tank
wheat notch
yes so he got void 2nd because of tanks and bought horizon 3rd to finish core
if it werent for the tanks it wouldve been his 2nd
admittedly idk if 115ap horizon would make itself playable rn
just because shadowflame is so silly w its pen
id have to do dummy checks
eternal palm
Shadow flame does do the most damage as a 2nd item, but it’s also super greedy
You shouldn’t build it if you’re behind
wheat notch
but regardless they fucking killed the item for its dedicated class bc they wanted to "widen its use case" or smthg weird which is a very questionable decision when u made the item intentionally niche
hey guys have an artillery item
hey why are only artilleries buying it we cant have that
eternal palm
I mean, artillery mages don’t need a 2nd item when they’re the hardest scaling champions in the game
wheat notch
lol
lmao
ziggs is at his best midgame and falls off after
its even more noticeable when he was meta
i even sent u this
in a prior argument
eternal palm
Wintry
wheat notch
like ok maybe xerath and velkoz scale better bc the former is a better champ and velk is a true damage generator but lol
eternal palm
Ziggs literally has the highest winrate of any artillery mage past 40 minutes
I’m plat+
Which is what we’re looking for when it comes to playing the champ the way it’s supposed to be played
night marsh
🍿
wheat notch
isn't league of graphs incredibly hit or miss
🤨
not to say opgg is that much better
eternal palm
Considering it has the same data as op.gg for mid
I would say no
There’s other reasons as to why Ziggs mid would suffer
But it’s def not because of falling off
wheat notch
it is absolutely bc of falling off
his dmg is so lacking he doesnt have amazing cc he keels over to baron minions so he cant even stall all too well anymore
comparing the first 2 to other mids*
he just cant match the dps or burst of other champs (depending on their class) late
the only reason he might have a high winrate uber late game is bc u win a single teamfight and W is an autowin button from inners to nexus
it's not bc he scales well
eternal palm
You have a weird mentality when it comes to scaling. Sylas wishes he could scale like Ziggs does at 3-4 items, rather than his peak point in most games being 2 items.
prisma ravine
Oh league of graphs is notoriously inaccurate
wheat notch
I mean if I want to believe my champion is good at scaling I'd hope they'd maintain a consistently high wr compared to their role after 30 minutes and not being drawn like the big dipper becoming the lowest winrate midlaner at 30min (60th out of 60) lol
compared to someone like Twitch who shits his 20 min but remains constantly high after
like cmon
I have 25 minutes to win a game before falling off if questionable graphs are to be trusted
eternal palm
You keep posting this, but Ziggs literally is a better bot lane than twitch lmfao
wheat notch
ur looking at patch wr
not wr based on time
heres what ur looking for
better midgame than mid but falls off even harder??
Ziggs just doesn't have the numbers to have good burst or dps after midgame concludes
he maybe zones a lil and has decent aoe burst but nothing jaw dropping
and is also good at ending games but needs his team to win the fights for him to do that
eternal palm
Just going through some data here; plat heavily skews the stats of a high level Ziggs. At masters + he has the 1st highest win rate at 35 minutes, at 40 he has the 5th highest win rate in grandmaster, in challenger he’s 3rd from 25 minutes +
So as we get to the higher tiers, you see what the champion does late game
wheat notch
he's got 42 games in gm relax bro 😭
eternal palm
That’s a higher % pick rate than his overall pick rate
eternal palm
His overall pick rate is .79%, so in general that’s a small sample size
prisma ravine
Eh
Raw numbers are more important than percentage
42 is so little its basically unusable
wheat notch
At least plat+ is almost 4k games
eternal palm
But again, who’s picking him
Do I trust plat/low diamond players to play Ziggs optimally
eternal palm
That means no games ended at 35 minutes because Ziggs is one of the best at stalling games out
Checkmate
prisma ravine
Do I trust plat/low diamond players to play Ziggs optimally
Whether a champ is played optimally is not dependent on the elo
Difficulty is relative to the field
Gm players suck at Akali too.
eternal palm
Champions with mobility have higher win rates in low elo despite being unusable in high elo
Is that relevant?
Ziggs ain’t an easy champion to team fight with
You have to actually know how to position, which most league players do not
Myself included
wheat notch
Anyway champ sucks but hey at least I have a 56% wr w him rn
prisma ravine
Champions with mobility have higher win rates in low elo despite being unusable ...
What? Thats nonsense on several levels
Anyway the point is
How good you are at the champ is independent of your elo
You will not be magically better at Ziggs just because youre in grandmaster
If you havent played him, you will suck
wheat notch
top 1 indicator if someone knows how to play ziggs or not
whether or not they bought archangel's
the archangel zhonya double dip 😭
eternal palm
That’s not the point. Ziggs requires skills that are not accessible at low elo. Low elo thrives on stat checkers, darius, annie, mf’s of the world
wheat notch
Ziggs abilities are also infinitely easier to hit in pisslow
so u feel like a real champ
wheat notch
bc ur oppo takes shitloads of damage when they wouldnt
eternal palm
Also this is an example of wintry not experiencing peak level play vs her because plat players don’t actually know how to prioritize targets so she thinks zhonyas is bad, when this goes back to what I was saying before, shadow flame is a greedy item
prisma ravine
Pretty sure Zhonyas isnt good because it sets you too far behind on a champ that falls off
eternal palm
Not dying when opposite team gets to the back line out dps’ your 5 bombs that hit with your shadow flame
wheat notch
I don't think Zhonyas is bad because of target prioritization I think it's bad because it's a worse stat stick than all alternatives and if you reach the point of using stasis you're most likely dead regardless unless you're in a very communicative environment
u r way too squishy zhonya or nkt
stasis is jot saving u
eternal palm
Unless they killed your entire team zhonyas is most def saving you
Or at the very least burning cd’s
wheat notch
ur in the back anyway
and u dont just toss ur w out willy nilly either
u create a solid like 1k unit distance with a w
I'd understand zhonyas more on literally every other artillery bc they dont have an escape spell
except jayce hes an ad champ
eternal palm
Let me toss w as I just got flanked from fog of war instead of pressing zhonyas
prisma ravine
Zhonyas is good on a champ that scales
Or on a champ that can contribute while in Stasis
Ziggs is neither
wheat notch
eternal palm
This is completely off lmfao
Damn there’s a skarner on the other team, let me build shadow flame
Wait I got flashed and pulled and opposing team just had a 4K gold swing?
wheat notch
This is
eternal palm
Wtf no way
wheat notch
literally such a bad example
what
it's so shit I am actively debating logging off and going to bed rn
eternal palm
How is this a bad example, you’re not reacting to a skarner coming at you with W, regardless of how you approach it, you’re trading negatively
You’re sacrificing w + flash
wheat notch
I'm not reacting to skarner ult
with stasis
either
i will die
before suppression runs out
and will not split second enter stasis after being flashed on
lol?
eternal palm
….
Do you not have teammates?
I feel like you guys think of the game as multiple isolated 1v1s rather than as a team
wheat notch
If I somehow get fucking flash ulted by skarner evidently not
bc ive no idea how he gets past a frontline
if not from a flank
or a pick
like what
oh and shadowflame 1 champ isnt gonna stop me from buying ky best 2nd item spike especiallt when i always buy void anyway? like i dont have itemization decisions if i dont buy mejai it's always lian sflame rabs void morello in that order
also skarner is constantly shielded so sflame passive will be consistently max effective vs him anyway
it's like going i dont know
oh my opponents have rammus i am no longer buying my lethality itwm on an assassin bc it wont do damage
like i have a choice
night marsh
so lets assume there is a ziggs and 4 other people grouped up (ziggs in the back)
skarner is just going to walk up, flash past 4 of them, ulti ziggs and then?
he's in the middle of 4 people at this point
eternal palm
Same assumption for skarner, he has 4 teammates, enemy team is grouped up mid, enemy top laner creates space or enemy support lands a hook or cc, skarner pops predator, ghost and pulls Ziggs back to the team, either that or Ziggs has to blow flash which is already a positive trade for the skarner. I’m not saying the skarner is 1v5ing
I can give you examples of priority targets getting skarner ultied at the highest level of play
Your team is always going to create the space for you and if the enemy team isn’t willing to pay the zhonyas/qss tax then that’s on them
night marsh
can you show some examples
that just seems so unrealistic
to run past 4 people and flash ult
idrc about the ziggs buying zhonyas argument because I truly don't know
closet thing in my champ pool I have to ziggs is taliyah
eternal palm
Yeah, let me pay for groceries and I’ll post you vids
prisma ravine
I mean by the stats
Zhonyas is an unpopular item on Ziggs and one that relatively performs way worse at all stages of the game
wheat notch
I wouldn't call it unpopular
I'd say I see it like once every 3rd Ziggs opponent
I just don't think it's good
prisma ravine
Its like 20% combined?
wheat notch
idr the actual buyrate
but I see it in games enough to not deem it unpopular
admittedly I barely see other people on Ziggs since I pick him
eternal palm
This is prob a good one to start with though https://youtu.be/aifaPtjvq8Y I remember Karsa popping off this game and light getting caught a few times for greeding for collector (one of the worst items in the game btw)
night marsh
what time?
eternal palm
2:25 is the first one I believe
night marsh
that isn't remotely close to what you were talking about though lol
eternal palm
Wintry’s argument was “why am I buying zhonyas vs skarner”
My answer was “so you don’t get ultied by him”
prisma ravine
You want to play to win, not play to not lose
wheat notch
My answer was “so you don’t get ultied by him”
Stasis would literally not save me this clip btw
his position also seems really weird if he didn't have vision for Skarner there
eternal palm
That’s the issue, that you guys think item builds are static
prisma ravine
No?
eternal palm
If you’re not adjusting your item builds for the team comps you’re vsing
prisma ravine
Just that building Zhonyas is pretty always a losing proposition
If building Zhonyas on Ziggs in a specific game is the right call, youre already losing that game and trying to salvage what you can
Which wont work most of the time
wheat notch
If you’re not adjusting your item builds for the team comps you’re vsing
The only adjustment I can physically make is maybe buying Void 3rd over Rabadon 3rd or getting an early Oblivion Orb
which I do
eternal palm
That’s just so wrong lol. The most extreme example of this buying mejais while you’re behind. If you’re buying zhonyas on Ziggs it’s because you made the call that staying alive a few seconds longer can be the difference between winning and losing a team fight. Idc about your individual damage at that point when staying alive benefits my team more
prisma ravine
And if that call was correct, youre losing the game
And are trying to salvage what you can
Because if zhonyas makes you stay alive a few seconds longer, and that makes enough of a difference to outvalue the difference in damage
Youre screwed
wheat notch
why the fuck am i buying mejai when im BEHIND?????
eternal palm
Why are you building shadow flame when behind also btw, by the time to finish it it’s already too late for it to have value
wheat notch
I am simply never behind 🤙
didnae matter my opponent had 1 kill 1 assist i was 40 cs up
eternal palm
Also, in regards to the zhonyas argument, again, do you not have teammates? The longer you’re alive the more you can do what you do best which is zone control, even with limited damage you still contribute so much at that specific point of the game
eternal palm
Your team is setting up drag, where are you positioning? How are you making sure this drag is the safest drag for your team to take? Does a stopwatch/zhonyas make a difference in this scenario?
eternal palm
What did you say
prisma ravine
Also, in regards to the zhonyas argument, again, do you not have teammates? The ...
Youre not doing any zone control while youre in Zhonyas
So no, you being alive longer is not making a difference in your zone control, your zone control is just less threatening
eternal palm
Again, not the point, in order to zone control drag pit (moreso on blue side) you got to position in a way that leaves you more open to flanks since you can be flanked from 2 sides
You’re the main thing stopping an enemy team from contesting a drag
eternal palm
That
Is not true at all
You get flanked, that means 1 champion committed cooldowns to get to you
Clicking zhonyas makes your initial team fight a net positive
prisma ravine
Not neccessarily, but sure lets say they committed cooldowns
You pop Zhoynas
Their team crashes in as youre down a player for 2.5 seconds
You get out of Zhonyas and get blown up while doing less damage
Thats not a great situation for Zhonyas in the first place
eternal palm
So let’s assume both scenarios here, you click zhonyas their team waits for you to get out of zhonyas and blows you up, your team gets drag, that’s a positive. Or you click zhonyas, your team walks up 3 feet to where you were positioned and collapse on the 1-2 champs that tried to flank you, either forcing defensive cooldowns or them disengaging. You live, they’re down cd’s and you keep zoning them from the choke to get to drag
prisma ravine
Oh no they get dragon too
You get blown up and they get drag
And if your team walks forward, you get blown up, they get drag and they get the rest of your team too
Of course, if their team isnt ready to collapse, the guy flanking you just backs off, you waste Zhonyas, are doing less damage than you otherwise would and they still beat you in a fight and get drag easily
wheat notch
What did you say
.
wheat notch
if not from a flank
.
wheat notch
also, you know how much more disconnected soloq players are as if they'd be able to protect me if i popped a zhonya
if im ever in a bad position to need to zhonya anyway
if i die its bc i positioned like shit and zhonya would only delay my death by a few seconds
what a useful active!
chilly ivy
Honestly i only buy zhonyas on mages that can do something during the stasis
Like morg
Situationally swain, but it kinda sucks on him
wheat notch
only champ I buy zhonyas on is swain
its good on him 😠
but its also like
2nd 3rd itme lmao
3rd more often i think? idr
chilly ivy
Maybe not sucks, i don't like it ig
I take it vs comps where popping it means i heal off more during the stasis than I'd heal off just buying a bigger ap item
That's my logic for it
Just that more dmg would likely prolong my survivability too
Like popping it when irelia or some other dodgable ult is flying towards you is cool
In other cases i prefer more ap
oak ginkgo
... how the fuck do you get an S+
If the system is like it was 3 years ago, get better cs
prisma ravine
ARAM
oak ginkgo
Yes I saw
prisma ravine
It doesnt count CS in ARAM anymore Im pretty sure
wheat notch
what is this matchmaking bruhh
dim kindle
dw mmr only matchmaking is coming soon
eternal palm
It’s also preseason
Matchmaking is always wonky till at least the first full month of the season starting
wheat notch
I realise
wheat notch
slim terrace
kha with ravenous hydra brings back memories of season 3
wheat notch
are they good memories?
slim terrace
well that's when my friends and I were most into league so probably 
I remember playing pre-rework dfg katarina, good times
wheat notch
I'm on such a roll rn oomfies :D
night marsh
ziggs op gg
wheat notch
ngl I felt insane
in botlane
Like a real champ we went nuts
look at that big damage bar 
sinful frost
sullen crystal
yawn
can they just revert abyssal mask to what it used to be
the cc someone makes them take more damage so the item actually is worth building
slim terrace
https://www.reddit.com/r/leagueoflegends/comments/zmyve6/soraka_r_vs_karthus_r_almost_broke_keyboard_to_r/ I'm so glad this dude recorded mic audio, the furious tapping on the keyboard has me dying
humble glacier
oh
so theyre making me like yuumi even less
sigh
We think Yuumi staying attached for long periods of time is essential for her to serve her current players as well as players learning the game.
🙃
i miss release yuumi
eternal palm
Idk why they don’t just make it so that
When the person who has Yuumi attached is cc’d, she is forced out and has to wait 1.5-2 seconds before being able to attach to somebody else
The people she is normally attached to are in the back line anyways, so she should still have a chance to re-attach, but it gives ults like ornn ult a big more agency vs her
night marsh
The people she is normally attached to are in the back line anyways, so she shou...
have you never played vs a yuumi+bruiser
sullen crystal
all I can think of is have the attach timed
like she can stay attached for x seconds before hopping back off and you can choose the direction you hop off
eternal palm
have you never played vs a yuumi+bruiser
Have you never played 7 straight games of Yuumi + ezreal
night marsh
you mean yuumi+ez?
eternal palm
Yes
night marsh
also yuumi would just attach to a brusier
if they had one
because it's so much more oppressive ona tanky champ
than an adc
sinful frost
remember the goal is to avoid having Yuumi gain skill expression through usage of mount and unmount
eternal palm
Not when your adc is not only the most mobile but the best kiter and now he has ibg access again
Ezreal is far and above the best adc in the game right now (if you can actually hit your Q’s 40% of the time)
night marsh
but compare that to an aatrox or ksante lol
why in the world would you attach to ez over any of the current meta tops
eternal palm
Because if ezreal is on your team that’s your late game insurance? If you have ezreal + Yuumi, they themselves can 2v5 90% of opposing team comps past 30 minutes, early on sure attach to the Astrox and ksante, but that 3 item ez with Yuumi on him is going to outpace whoever
night marsh
no I mean
do you think a yuumi is going to get more value out of an ez or a tank
because everything you just said can be used in favor of just sitting on the top laner
3 item aatrox/ksante makes more use out of yuumi than a 3 item ez
not only are you completely outdamaged but yuumi doesn't need to waste abilities to peel
oh yeah, I forgot about mundo too lol
eternal palm
This question depends solely on team comp vs team comp. Without knowing any factors outside of ez + Yuumi , I would say you get more value of the ez, only thing the bruiser helps is to get cleaner engage ults i guess and more healing uptime? But even then engaging with Yuumi ult is high key troll in most scenarios. It’s not as if the Yuumi is still not poking from a safe distance while on ez, and ez is self sufficient enough that Yuumi doesn’t have to pop her abilities instantly
prisma ravine
The reason they dont want to focus on Yuumi deattaching and reattaching is that that is the reason why Yuumi is currently such a high-skill champ
It means that she dominates pro play while the majority of her users cant use her
And they dont want Yuumi to be a high-skill champ
eternal palm
That’s dumb though
night marsh
they need to realize that yuumi is incredibly unhealthy though
eternal palm
She’s an issue rn at all levels of play
night marsh
and that shouldn't constrain them for just gutting her
eternal palm
Like I told my friend, idk why they’re worried about nerfing her to the ground, that’s actually a good thing for everybody including pro players
prisma ravine
A good Yuumi is (or was) a problem at all levels of play, but most Yuumis ... arent good
And the reason for that is that yuumi is really really popular
Gutting her would be like if they gutted Yasuo 5 seasons back
eternal palm
I remember back in the earlier seasons (outside of exceptions like ryze and corki), if you were relevant the year before, they would damn sure make sure you weren’t relevant the year after
night marsh
she is played a lot because she is easy to play
eternal palm
She played a lot because people legitly do other shit while playing as her lol
night marsh
like
why are we balancing her around this
when she has been a problem since release
eternal palm
I have a plat 1 friend that queues and raids ff14 while playing yuumi
prisma ravine
she is played a lot because she is easy to play
Thats the thing though
She isnt
Like, she is very far from being easy to play
Thats the whole problem in the first place
They want Yuumi to be easy, but she is actually really difficult to the point where she does the Akali thing of being busted in pro play while most users in solo Q cant do anything on her
Realistically I dont think they need to change attach to fix Yuumi, tbh
Abathur in HotS had basically Yuumis attach but on turbo-crack
And he was fine
night marsh
idk where this meme of yuumi being high skill cap comes from
she's played at all levels and is a introductory character for a lot of players
prisma ravine
Riot literally telling us, and showing the data, proving that she is high skill
eternal palm
Yeah I’m confused as well. Even if we say she’s not malphite/Annie easy, she’s also not ezreal/riven hard
prisma ravine
A better question is where did the meme of Yuumi being low skill coming from?
night marsh
that data was them skewing numbers to fit their narrative
eternal palm
She’s somewhere in the middle
night marsh
We believe that Yuumi has a key spot on the League roster when she’s positioned as a champion like Garen, Annie, and Sona who were designed to help introduce players to Summoner’s Rift
high skill champ btw
eternal palm
Lmao there’s 2 characters on that first chart that are actually extremely hard to play in akali and Qiyana
night marsh
also another thing
prisma ravine
And they want to change yuumi so it is the case
eternal palm
Neeko and mordekaiser being hard to play has to be a meme
night marsh
is yuumi is entirely dependent on the adc
so those numbers
are actually just troll
prisma ravine
That ... literally doesnt make sense
night marsh
ok
prisma ravine
Neeko and mordekaiser being hard to play has to be a meme
Theyre not, their mastery curves are much different
Morde is 5% gap between first time and mastered, Akalis is 15%
night marsh
there are supports
which have immediate impact on pick
yuumi is entirely dependent ona dc positioning
prisma ravine
And so is literally any other support
night marsh
if your adc is braindead and doesnt walk up for qs or can't position for shit
prisma ravine
If Im playing Pyke and my adc constantly overextends
night marsh
you lose lane
prisma ravine
I cant do shit
prisma ravine
This logic also fails because why does your adc magically become a better play because you have 100 games on Yuumi rather than 1?
prisma ravine
Even if what you said was true, which it isnt, it wouldnt change the mastery curve
prisma ravine
It would depress the entire mastery curve equally
night marsh
you can;t ward
prisma ravine
Fact is, Yuum is really hard
Not even that difficult to see tbh
Both times she was crushing worlds, her solo Q win rate was like 45-47%
Thats a sign of a hard champ
The difference between a Yumi that just sits on you, and a Yuumi who plays around attaching and deattaching and knows all the ins and outs is just massive
night marsh
you can apply that to so many champs though lol
prisma ravine
Compare Keria to any given random Yuumi
Yes, a lot of champs have decently high skill floor or ceiling
eternal palm
4% curve on ez lmfao that’s all I needed to see to dismiss this data
prisma ravine
Thats over 30 games
The others over 80/100
Though here is one over 100
Not sure why you think Ezreal is super difficult though
Hes like, middle of the curve, maybe upper middle
Lets be real here, League players are just terrible at guessing how hard a champ is
Well theyre terrible at a lot more than that actually, but especially at that
Its like how for the longest time people kept insisting Katarina was easy until Riot straight up told them "no she isnt lmao"
eternal palm
What goes into riot’s mastery curve? Does it include min maxing your dmg/cc or just win rate? Because if you think maximizing your dps on ez is easy, I would love to see a vod of you playing ez
If it’s just win rate like I suspect it is, that is not an accurate mastery curve whatsoever
prisma ravine
Its win rate by games played
I.e.
How much does your performance improve the more you play a champ
I.e. how long do you need to play a champ to be good at them ... aka how hard is a champ
Skill floor and skill ceiling are based on time to plateau and gap respectively
humble glacier
yuumi was harder when she was released
then they slapped a 5 second lockout on ur w and then continued to encourage the cat being a living 7th item instead of a champion
which they seem to be pushing further because riot hates mobile supports
dim kindle
They just want her nail her identity into afk on a character and enchant so that they can tune the numbers to not be a pro problwm
I really doubt it will work
And I hate that
The idea of a beginner friendly yuumi is just nonsensical
thats what sona is for
you cannot treat new players in support as brainless monkeys that shouldnt learn fundamentals and just afk on someome
prisma ravine
Their logic is that they want you to learn some fundamentals rather than all of them at once
Its not ... without merit, honestly
dim kindle
I do not think that should happen through characters that just remove parts of the game
prisma ravine
I mean ... why not? They did it for fighting game characters a few times
slim terrace
I think the constantly attached thing would be a lot more well received if hard cc knocked her off or she received a % of the damage
prisma ravine
Both of those, while popular ideas, would be terrible for different reasons
The former goes back into the whole "we dont want Yuumi to be a high-skill champion", because that would suddenly mean optimal play is unattaching just as CC is about to hit then reattach
The latter just makes her even more of a liability in laning
humble glacier
thats what sona is for
oh this hurts but yeah
but yeah
sure the cat is cute, doesent mean she should be simple
dim kindle
Whether ppl want to hear it a not the skill gap differential is a huge problem with yuumi but who actually wants her to be made into more of an afk bot for "new players"
prisma ravine
Riot
dim kindle
If she stops being a problem riot probably deems it good enough
but if their answer to new players is "just play new yuumi and afk" i find that very disappointing
wheat notch
Whether ppl want to hear it a not the skill gap differential is a huge problem w...
my friend 👍
eternal palm
I think the big issue here that me and lamb were trying to make is that skill gap and mastery curve are not the same thing especially the way Riot uses it.
prisma ravine
They are, especially the way riot uses it
Its literally industry standard for a reason
eternal palm
They are not. And you can look at champions like Darius and Mordekaiser as examples as to why that logic is flawed
prisma ravine
They are, again, industry standards, and trivial to prove. And champs like Darius and Mordekaiser show that the logic is correct, not that its flawed
eternal palm
Both champions are “stat checkers”. They rely on amazing base stats and base damages to succeed, yet their curve is higher than much more skill intensive champions.
prisma ravine
Both Mordes and Darius mastery curve are about average though
And they really arent stat checkers either
eternal palm
Like I said to your statement yesterday, post a vod of you playing ezreal and show me the ability to min/max damage at even a remotely decent level, and I’ll believe that you know the difference between skill gap and mastery curve.
prisma ravine
If you need to rely on an argumentum ad hominem, your position is indefensible
And there is no difference
Mastery Curve shows difficulty (almost) perfectly
Which means, it shows the skill gap
It is genuinely just that simple
The problem is that youre assuming that your personal biases trump statistics, which is a common error, but not how it works
If your personal belief dont match the statistics, its not the statistics that are wrong
eternal palm
Statistics are only part of the equation, there’s varying factors that should be taken into account when judging an individual champion, making a decision solely off statistics is wrong. Ask all the sports teams that went full analytics 5 years ago and went back to a hybrid model because analytics do not tell the whole story about an individual.
prisma ravine
There are things statistics arent perfect at. This isnt one of them
There are factors to keep in mind for mastery curves, but they boil down to " disproportionate duo rates" (Kog comes to mind) and other things like that, which dont apply to Yuumi
Mastery Curve tells you everything about a champs difficulty with perfect accuracy
Err, almost
Sample size on low pick rate champs makes things messy
You lack the data
But think about it this way
If a champ can be learned in 10 games, theyre not difficult
If someone playing a champ for the first time only does a tiny bit worse than a player playing that champ for the 100th time, theyre not difficult
Mastery Curve just shows you these things that are evidently true
wheat notch
wow wildrift is so unenjoyanle
to me
wtf
brain went numb
ziggs w is so much clunkier than og too
prisma ravine
Wildrift is weird because its like
Way more polished than base league
And the skins look better
But its also mobile
dim kindle
It has some champ reworks that are kinda cool too
but yea just not enjoyable to play with phone controls for me
wheat notch
it doesn't need 12 different levels for a tutorial
where at least 3 of the Quests are "play league"
eternal palm
A tutorial should do exactly what the league tutorial does
And that’s teach you the absolute basics
Imagine a world where the league tutorial teaches you wave management? It would be a shit show
slim terrace
ngl I'd actually like an optional extended tutorial for that, sorta like what legend of runeterra has
using wards/trinkets, basic wave control like freezing or pushing to reset, etc
sullen crystal
man
why does yi only need 2 items to be the best character in the game lol
meditate is such a cracked ability too
wheat notch
@eternal palm play league he said youll feel better he said
eternal palm
You can blame it on being sick
wheat notch
eternal palm
These losses don’t count
wheat notch
wheat notch
only took 2 of the worst gamesof my life to do a little good
eternal palm
I got mundo’d yesterday for the first time this season
slim terrace
<@304354673647812608> play league he said youll feel better he said
wtf is your team's comp
dim kindle
I got mundo’d yesterday for the first time this season
my condolences
champ is a bit wild rn
wheat notch
wtf is your team's comp
Normal Draft
slim terrace
I play that mode too and usually don't see shit like this lul
the one time I did I dodged, though
slim terrace
was twitch literally inting
slim terrace
highest damage support maokai is really something
wheat notch
Just annoyed that my losses are still -15 :I
humble glacier
highest damage support maokai is really something
30 minutes of people walking into bushes and deciding to tank mao saplings adds up
and mandate also applies to everything he does
did
horizon focus proc?
on saplings?
wait it should cuz hes melee
wheat notch
+14 oh kill yourself matchmaking 🙄
I have a great wr and my elo doesn't keep up so fun
eternal palm
10 games over .500 ain’t too bad
wheat notch
my preseason wr is 55% in 51
56% in 48 on ziggs
it was 58% before i started playing today :I
wheat notch
🥱
wheat notch
That win though
i cant believe these games were so tilting i unironically went back to ygo
sinful frost
yeah it's based on the most in-demand roles for your region
slim terrace
I forgot what actually gives you autofill protection at this point
in NA I think it's only ADC?
ever since jungle preseason update
slim terrace
nice fullbuikld vs 2 items
jeez mid canyon
dapper kite
Played 6 games voluntary autofill today
Won 5 of them
Sometimes, life is just good
3 adc, 2 supp and one jgl
dim kindle
Kinda wild that bot laner is the least played role
its been in way worse states than how it is rn
I definitely feel like the jgl nerfs are having some effect finally
not every game is jgl 1v9 show, only every 2nd game
eternal palm
Support no longer gives you autofill prot? lmaoooo
support isn't the least popular role anymore and hasn't been for a while iirc
it's jungle
who the hell willingly queues up for jungle
dapper kite
?
eternal palm
you got to be a real masochist
eternal palm
well this season idk, but last season jg was def the least popular role
dapper kite
Might be
wheat notch
night marsh
lol
eternal palm
I mean look at his previous tweet
Twitter
He has nothing to lose anymore
Man rather spread misinformation than actually be a decent human being
dim kindle
Ocelote was never a decent person to be honest
but he did earn his success with g2
the org will live on and he will hopefully lose some reach
dapper kite
ok riven spielers, which of these skins is the worst, and which is the best?
wheat notch
i only know dawnbringer of thse
dapper kite
sentinel and spirit blossonm are the others, but i have never played riven in my life
wheat notch
ye i mean like idk the quality of the others lol
dapper kite
so i cant really judge them
dim kindle
Dawnbringer animations feel incredibly smooth to play with
thematically I enjoy spiritblossom more
the one in the middle i domt recognize
dapper kite
sentinel
dim kindle
no experience with thar one
wheat notch
good game i think
its cool that if i queue up into these people again i wont know because of censored names
eternal palm
I disappointed myself yesterday
Couldn’t carry on Kai’sa vs GP, Cass, Vayne, Leona and I forgot who the 5th champ was
dim kindle
gp is so gigabroken rn with the navori build
they either need to adjust the navori interaction to not double dip on a q shot barrel or nerf him overall
i prefer the former
also his passive true damage gets increased by it as well which leads to ridiculous true damage numbers
cass is very tough for kai too
wheat notch
i can only Ace so many times
🙃 tilt does u so dirty
wheat notch
jacksho morde seems really fair
eternal palm
also his passive true damage gets increased by it as well which leads to ridicul...
Is that why he was 1 tapping me despite me dodging all his barrels?
That would make sense
I was like fuck man, I’m doing my darnest vs cass (had about 3 fights were I damn near frame perfect turned right as she was ulting)
But the fucking gp
Would just go “hey Q, auto you’re dead”
chilly ivy
gp can and will deal about 800 true damage if you touch him
eternal palm
And usually when I see GP’s in my game I’m like “okay, most gp’s suck at chaining barrels so this will be fine”
And this was true for this guy
But it doesn’t matter when you can 1 shot me
Without doing gp’s most important mechanic
dim kindle
hes conpletelty overtuned rn cuz of the way navori interacts with his kit
like best champ on the patch if you can play him
most likely
the last time they nerfed gp they compensatef him a bit with crit scaling on his passive so now with navori that shit blows you up
by itself
dim kindle
The problem is just the navori interaction really
not sure how they'll solve it but they need to
cuz that shit rn is very illegal
dim kindle
i think crit gp is much easier to balance
and he was in a pretty healthy spot before the navori changes
prisma ravine
He wasnt
He was a walking slot machine where early on there was a 20% chance of just randomly dying for no reason
He is impossible to balance and make a reasonable design while forced into crit
dim kindle
the randomly dying to crit argument is so bad I really cant hear it anymore
Like I can sorta understand it with trynda level 2 cheesing and high rolling but how is essence reaver gp slot machining you lmao
crit is very normalized in league
situations like wow he crit me 5 times in a row with 20% are scarce outliers and have no balance relevance
eternal palm
Yeah I think gp’s always been fine before vsing this version of GP, playing vs barrels has counterplay and rewards the gp handsomely for proper barrel chaining
But this version of GP not having to land barrels is the issue
dim kindle
Like sure maybe crit should just get removed i am willing to have that conversation sorta but "slot machining" is just complete nonsense
eternal palm
I can only imagine how oppressive an actual good GP is rn
dim kindle
You arent winning any even fights without barrels still
but like just flash auto q does way more than it should rn when you are very fed
eternal palm
Yeah that’s the point. Being able to eliminate key targets, while already causing chaos by default because you’re gp is an issue
dim kindle
I can only imagine how oppressive an actual good GP is rn
its very wild what good gp players can do rn ye
Essence navori 2 cloaks to hit the threshold and suddenly shit just disappears a little too much
like the whole thing isnt really complicated
navori just lets him do a bit too much more damage than what he should be able to
prisma ravine
I'll get back to this when I'm home
Annoying to type on phone
But saying that gp just slot machines is unfortunately very accurate
dim kindle
its not its complete bogus
prisma ravine
Again, I'll get back to this later
dim kindle
you get 1 kill you shouldnt every 20th game flash qing after someone and hoping it crits on essence spike
on essence power spikes if he didnt already win lane he still loses to all his bad MUs
eternal palm
Yeah idg this slot machine logic
dim kindle
he has a very strong opinion on both crit and win rate and I highly disagree with him on both
prisma ravine
You can disagree on crit as long as you have good arguments. Win rate however is settled science
Saying win rate is worthless isn't an opinion, its simple statistical fact
dim kindle
its really not and imo the way you phrase that tells me you dont really understand either
prisma ravine
Best example: true stealth Akali, or Annie, who was stronger at that time?
dim kindle
maybe someone else will bite
prisma ravine
The answer is Akali, she got nerfed lime 5 times back to back for a reason, while Annie was straight up underpowered
And yet
Annie never had less than a 5% winrate lead over the infinitely stronger Akali
Why?
The answer is easy. Akali is difficult. Annie is braindead
And difficulty affects winrate far more than power does
A weak easy champ will always have a higher winrate than a strong hard champion
sinful frost
But why separate difficulty from power?
prisma ravine
its really not and imo the way you phrase that tells me you dont really understa...
So no. It is settled science
prisma ravine
But why separate difficulty from power?
Same reason you don't make Oro when mastered 10 times better than Ryu when mastered
There's more, but I can't pull up data on my phone
If you want the detailed answer, you'll have to wait a bit
sinful frost
But we do. Regularly, actually.
sinful frost
High execution characters routinely have higher payoff for their execution.
Getting to reduce your mental stack and execution is the appeal of low-execution characters.
prisma ravine
They don't though
Think of any fighting game rn
How many of them have easy characters as top tiers and difficult characters as low tiers?
I cant think of any that don't fall in this category
sinful frost
well I haven't kept up with a lot of fighting games scenes, actually
so my instincts are a little out of date
prisma ravine
It's not Ginyu and Roshi dominating dbfz, it's the fusions
sinful frost
yeah
the relatively low execution, low difficulty characters
prisma ravine
It's not Oro and Rose ruling sfv, it's Luke and Cammy
sinful frost
they are strong because they have lower execution demands
prisma ravine
Well no
sinful frost
not only because of having lower execution demands, to be sure
prisma ravine
Fighting games measure a characters power by assuming a perfect player
Carl's execution in BBCF is extremely difficult
Few can play him even remotely well
Yet he is considered top 3 because those few crush most everyone else
Ginyu isn't bad because he is hard to play
He is bad because even if you play him perfectly he just can't keep up
sinful frost
it's not the sole contributing factor
but is definitely a factor
prisma ravine
Zato is hard in Strive, but he is rated higher than the much easier Anji because Zato is better when played perfectly
sinful frost
especially in a genre like fighting games
where so much is about managing your mental stack and overloading your opponent's
prisma ravine
That's separate from difficulty
sinful frost
that is the difficulty
prisma ravine
Again, if your logic tracked, Carl would be seen as a bottom 5 character, not a top 3 one
But he is a top 3 character
Seth would've been the worst character in UNIST
He was top ... 5?
The reason is simple. Players who can't play the character will lose no matter how good the character ia
Why consider them at all?
And the answer is "you shouldnt"
Carl could have 9-1 matchups across the board
I will still lose every game on him
sinful frost
But you've already stratified your parameters by doing so.
The nature of the question, of course, requires setting terms.
prisma ravine
Elaborate?
wheat notch
no
sinful frost
The nature of asking "what is a strong character?" requires that you define what the parameters of the question. In what cases do we care about? What are the things that make a character strong, anyway?
prisma ravine
What makes a character strong is a design question, not a balance one
sinful frost
Design, by nature, subsumes balance.
prisma ravine
It can be used for balancing, but for the question of what is strong or not its rather irrelevant
So, let's define a strong character
We're in the realm of balance, so we want something objective, something measurable
Because if its subjective it risks bias, and bias risks compromising balance
sinful frost
Like winrate.
Winrate, by nature, subsumes everything about a character, in all cases.
prisma ravine
The natural assumption is "how well does a character perform?"
However, here we need to immediately set a framework
Again, to eliminate biases
If we use winrate, or the performance of everyone, we immediately run into a huge problem
Characters are primarily played by players with maybe 5 games on a champ and
Ugh, battery is almost out
I'll get back to this in .... 30ish minutes?
Maybe more, fucking traffic
wheat notch
Jesus Christ Horizon is still so bad
bought it 2nd item
only out damaged by 3rd item Shadowflame by under 300
please give me my revert rito :(
prisma ravine
Alright @sinful frost Im back, and I have access to data now
So these are mastery curves, yadda yadda, we care about the grey bit right now
The grey bit is the players
And as you can see, theyre all concentrated at the start
So, now lets assume we balanced these on win rate
Ideally Id make a sequence to approximate these, but I have no clue how I'd do that, so lets do theatre of the mind, take Namis curve, and assume its -2 everywhere, and take Vlads curve, and add +4 everywhere
Now, what happens when we do that? Well, take a look at the end of the curve, and you get a pretty good idea. It causes 3 issues specifically
First, if you play the game and are up against a Vlad who knows how to play his champ ... you lose, and there is nothing you can do. A Vlad who knows how to play his champ will be a relative 7% above you, which is huge
Second, you now have a lot of vlad one-tricks with inflated elos relative to their actual skill level, which means once they reach elos where Vlad is commonly banned (as he would be), suddenly they would be equivalent to getting a troll, leading to bad games
Third, pro play is fucked. If you imagine this was a worlds patch, you'd have like 10 100% pick/ban champs, and only like 70 champs tops get picked across an entire worlds. Thats bad. Really bad
And you cant fix any of these issues without ignoring winrate, because winrate is directly why we have these issues. So obviously, winrate is out
@sinful frost with me so far?
sinful frost
Let me ask a question so as to refocus the discussion.
Why is a character's attractiveness not a balancing lever?
prisma ravine
Because it ... has no impact on their power?
Besides, I wasnt quite done
Im explaining why winrate is bad, and there is another bit I havent touched on yet
sinful frost
Why doesn't it have an impact on a character's power?
It affects who plays the character, and you can't divorce a character from the player.
prisma ravine
... you can?
sinful frost
You yourself made that point about Carl. Weak players will fail to express the character's strengths.
prisma ravine
Yes, but every character has weak and strong players
What makes someone a "weak" player isnt something you start with
Everyone can learn every character
Thats where mastery curve comes in
Because it lets us look at the "weak" and the "strong" players
sinful frost
Philosophically, on balance, I actually agree with you. I'm always suspicious about balance changes targeted at lower levels of play.
But to make that distinction has already drastically changed the grounds of the discussion. That's strength "at high level play," which is not the same strength "at low levels of play," which is not the same as strength full stop.
prisma ravine
Anyway, we already have 3 issues that are fundamentally unsolvable with winrate, but there is a very funny fourth one
And its one you have no doubt experienced before
Or rather seen?
sinful frost
A character that is strong "if you can use them" is necessarily not strong "full stop."
prisma ravine
And thats that winrate can be paradoxical. Its a simple tale. A champ gets nerfed. Their win rate goes up. A champ gets buffed. Their winrate goes down
If winrate reflected power, this would be a huge contradiction
A champion gets stronger so they get weaker? A champion gets weaker so they get stronger? Its an oxymoron, it cant be. But it happens all the time
Knowing mastery curves you probably already know whats happening. In the former case, lots of new players who cant play the champ. The curve goes up, but the part of the curve that matters the most goes down
Vice versa in the second case
This ... is a contradiction that kills winrates viability
prisma ravine
*But* to make that distinction has already drastically changed the grounds of th...
Oh but thats misunderstanding something here
This isnt about levels of play
These mastery curves are all composed entirely of plat+ players
The people at the start of the curve arent worse players, theyre worse on that champion specifically
sinful frost
yeah
the argument remains
strength "having never played" is not the same as strength "after a lifetime of playing" is not the same as strength full stop
prisma ravine
Does it? Theyre not losing because the champ is weak but because they dont know how to play the champ, and they would lose no matter how good the champ was, so how do they factor into how strong the champ is at all?
The first is "difficulty", thats what "strength having never played is"
Youre right, its not the same as the other two
The second is "power", its how strong the champ is when you know to play it
The third ... is another word for "power"
sinful frost
Then how do UI players keep stealing wins?
actually, "stealing" is loaded language there
prisma ravine
Besides the champ being turbo-busted?
By playing against players who dont know their own character
sinful frost
Ah, but that's my point, isn't it?
The character was cracked not because of his unusually high peak.
He was cracked because his floor to win was so low.
prisma ravine
I mean he was cracked because of the former very much so
sinful frost
The third ... is another word for "power"
See, this is the point of contention.
A character that cannot stumble into wins into is weaker than a character that can.
prisma ravine
UI was most stupid on the highest level
prisma ravine
See, this is the point of contention.
A character that cannot stumble into wins ...
A character when learned cannot stumble into wins any more than a more hard character that was learned
sinful frost
But why bother learning?
My time and brain power are valuable, after all. In a long bracket setting, saving your energy is extremely valuable.
Your argument is actually biased towards individual games.
prisma ravine
Because ... youre gonna stick to one character anyway and "learning" is something that happens naturally as you play?
sinful frost
In a hundred games in a row, see how the Vlad and Annie player are doing then.
prisma ravine
So, fun fact: Thats also in the data, just by the fact that the endcurves tend to have players that play a lot of league, multiple games in a row each day
And if youre wondering: Nope, the Annie player doesnt start faring better after a day of league
sinful frost
What about five consecutive days of League?
prisma ravine
Interesting question that would require more precise data collection to be answered conclusively, but comparing streamers of similar levels onetricking annie vs onetricking a hard champ, ... nope, still not
Turns out once you have "learned" a character
It doesnt actually take much more thinking, most of it is muscle memory
Carl is stupid hard to execute, but once you have it down, its not something you have to actively think about
sinful frost
Why not accept the counterintuitive conclusion?
Heavy objects don't fall faster, water can flow uphill, and losing AD makes a champion stronger.
prisma ravine
Why is it counterintuitive?
Youre assuming a harder champion always takes more brainpower rather than it taking longer until you have it all down to instinct
sinful frost
You said before it doesn't make sense that nerfs increase a champions winrate if winrate is tied to power.
prisma ravine
Yes
But thats because winrate isnt tied to power
Its a contradiction stemming from a false assumption
Its "reductio ad impossibile", one of the main forms of inductive proof
sinful frost
Let me refocus the discussion again.
Your key assertion here is that a character's strength is defined by a when said character is played (to summarize) "well."
My key assertion is that to append "well" to the descriptor fundamentally changes it and therefore fails to define a character's strength "full stop."
prisma ravine
My key assertion here is that a characters strength isnt "defined" by when a character is played "at the minimum level at which it can be considered to be learned", but rather that only by looking at players who have learned the character, can you see their strength
If you try to define strength, or power, in any other way
You get contradictions
Contradictions are impossible, unless the premise is wrong
To borrow a quote from everyones favourite fictional detective, Herlock Sholmes Sherlock Holmes:
"When you have eliminated all which is impossible, then whatever remains, however improbable, must be the truth."
The part that basically renders winrate obviously worthless is that a champions winrate can change, without any part of the game changing
sinful frost
What contradiction is there in saying, "X character is weaker because it requires a greater investment?"
prisma ravine
Remember, were defining things numerically and objectively here, since this is balance
But also
"You will always invest into a character anyway, therefore a greater investment is a non-factor past a certain point, therefore the character is not weaker"
sinful frost
That's like saying, "Money is no object when it comes to picking your investment portfolio."
prisma ravine
If the premise is that you have enough money for everything and it isnt a object ... yes?
sinful frost
Ahh, but you've assumed that.
prisma ravine
Again if your framework is really narrow
Like lets say
"You only can play 5 games on a champ, you can never play beyond that, and you need to enter a tournament now and you have no prior experience whatsoever in the game and will never touch it again afterwards"
You could argue that in that specific framework
An easier character is "stronger"
sinful frost
Your framework is the narrow one. It necessarily excludes a subset of play and players.
sinful frost
My point is that, to define strength, all the subsets must be included.
prisma ravine
Simple question. A knife or a gun, which would you prefer to defend yourself with?
Assume someone is out on your life
And you have to choose
dapper kite
knife
prisma ravine
The correct answer is (usually) gun (it depends on how often you are in tight, narrow spaces I suppose)
But a gun is much harder to use than a knife
Any idiot can use a knife
sinful frost
Depends on the gun, really. There's a range of skill intensity when it comes to guns.
prisma ravine
But if youre in danger
Youre gonna learn how to use a gun
So you would pick the gun
sinful frost
Also I think the statistics bear out that the knife is favored within like 8 meters or so.
dapper kite
oh so im not in danger immediately
prisma ravine
A knife wins vs a gun if the knife attacks the gun
But in that case the knife also wins vs another knife
sinful frost
I haven't looked them up in a long time.
prisma ravine
Its a matter of reaction time, a fascinating, but seperate topic
Basically "running with a knife takes less time than reacting and pulling out your own weapon at 8 meters"
Anyway, the point here is, the knife might have a higher success rate, but thats because it includes a lot of people who get into a stupid bar brawl and pull out a knife
If you were to only look at people who want to defend themselves from impending danger they are aware of, its a gun all day every day
sinful frost
I think you switched your words there with the sentence with the bar
prisma ravine
Oh, so I did
The same is true in league
You want to know a champions strength because you want to win
The people who play a hard champ for the first time in ranked do not want to win
sinful frost
If you were to only look at people who want to defend themselves from impending ...
There's the word "only" again.
prisma ravine
So why would you look at people who do not want to win to gauge a metric you want to know because you want to win?
sinful frost
Why is the goal picking a character to win?
Does a character's strength not exist in the abstract?
prisma ravine
A characters strength in the abstract would be their highest point
sinful frost
Not necessarily.
A character's strength in the abstract could also be when their buttons are pressed in random sequences.
Or it could be the sum of both, and many many more cases.
prisma ravine
Ok, in that case lets bring it back to the concept of balance
Whats the goal of balance?
sinful frost
The goal of balance is to ensure the winner of a contest of equal skill comes down to random chance.
sinful frost
Or maybe it's that, in a theoretically infinite number of equally skilled contests, both competitors win an equal number of games.
prisma ravine
Same thing different wording ,but the point is clear
Now, in a contest of skill
What do you bring?
sinful frost
whatever you have on you
prisma ravine
I was aiming more for "your A-Game" or "your best shot", but
Basically, you bring what youre best at
A Fusions and A21 main isnt gonna rock up to a DBFZ Tournament with Ginyu/Buu/Hit
So, from a balancing character perspective, where do you aim to make sure the characters are equally matched between two equally skilled players?
dapper kite
Did some more autofill gaming today, 5 oit of 6 games i was adc
Really says alot about our society
prisma ravine
My condolences
ADC is just a boring role, especially after they fucked up their itemisation
I miss non-boring Kaisa 
dapper kite
Nah, its been rather fun actually
Way more fun playing without a support than playing with an incompetent adc
prisma ravine
... did you play ADC Warwick
Oh I gotta disagree on that
Support feels way more impactful
Id rather play without an ADC than without a support
dapper kite
Im talking soley for botlane here
prisma ravine
Same
dapper kite
... did you play ADC Warwick
prisma ravine
Ive played both roles for a while
Playing ADC when your support is incompetent is torture
On the other hand, when you finally get the enemy teams' support
Hoo boy
I barely have to do shit, the guy is solo carrying the lane lmao
I had a ... I think it was Taric support like a while ago
Dude just basically solo-zoned them out
Perfectly timed every ult
And helped me escape two ganks with immacutely positioned Es
dapper kite
I had a support literally disconnect on me and it wasnt as bad as when i had to play with someone offrole playing zeri
prisma ravine
Didnt say a word either
Anyway, @sinful frost the answer is "at the top"
You want the best player to win
sinful frost
in the middle of my monthly tcg match
prisma ravine
So your goal is to make sure that the balance is perfect amongst the best players
sinful frost
hang on
night marsh
ok riven spielers, which of these skins is the worst, and which is the best?
Sentinel>Dawnbringer>spirit blossom
become a riven main
so you can do 140% more work than your lane opponent for less results
dapper kite
To late, sentinel is already rerolled
night marsh
gg
dapper kite
Btw, where on that scale is arcade
Cause thats the skin i already have
And one of the basic ones ig but those dont really count do they 
prisma ravine
Much like every other Arcade skin, its "do you like the aesthetic?"
dapper kite
Im talking from a gameplay perspective
If i didnt like the aesthetics, i wouldnt be considering it
dapper kite
Guess ill try out riven if i ever get autofilled top
prisma ravine
Also the ult animation is stupid and will get you some hits you otherwise wouldnt because it looks like Ezreals Q or Lee Sins Q at first glance
night marsh
#1 is going to be a split between championship/dragon riven
just for how smooth they are
prisma ravine
The championship one is that good?
night marsh
yeah
eternal palm
Best skin I’ve spent my hard earned money on in years was space rumble
prisma ravine
Like Khas is alright, its good because every single Kha skin is good
But its not one of my favourites
Seriously Kha has like 8 skins or so
And theyre all good
night marsh
championship riven is like the championship skin
before they became recycled nonsense
dapper kite
I have championship rumble and leblanc i think
night marsh
rumble has a championship skin?
dapper kite
Wait why did i say rumble
I meant kha
I was reading thugs message as k was typing and it musta confused me
dapper kite
Well, its his only skin i have so
eternal palm
The best kha skin is odyssey
Bonus points if you have the pink chrome
Shit looks clean as fuck
prisma ravine
Grandlamb is correct btw
Lunar Guardian (Good splashart, ugly-ass model) <<<<< Championship Kha <<< Death Blossom Kha < Sand Guardian = Dark Star Kha < Mecha Kha
But Im a bit biased towards sand guardian
Death Blossom is a strong concept, I just wish they did more to sell the flower fantasy
The vfx and even parts of his model feel more like a decrepit Kha than a flower Kha
The R transformation however slaps
Oh I forgot Odyssey
... either on par with sand guardian and Dark Star, or on par with Mecha Kha
I cant decide
eternal palm
mecha?????
Mecha looks super outdated
night marsh
night marsh
when you have the evagelion chromo, shit goes from a 10/10 to a 15/10