Feeling so interactive
#League of Legends
prisma ravine
Well, you cant let him get 6 attacks off on ya
wheat notch
truly a shame
prisma ravine
Also if its in lane, pinks are actually pretty effective
prisma ravine
They got a silly range
wheat notch
I'm not delaying a mythic spike to die 2 seconds later than normal bc he outruns boots anyway
prisma ravine
Oh pink negates most of the MS boost actually
Its 30% only against champs that cant see him
Its 10% against those who can
wheat notch
why would i care about waveclear if hes the jg
wheat notch
so true hes only 3rd highest mid wr
prisma ravine
With a <1% pick rate
wheat notch
Quadrupling your pick rate in the span of 4 patches is quite something yes
With your winrate only going up with each patch
prisma ravine
Well, AP Twitch went from completely unplayable to almost viable, hence the modest increase. But its still less than 1%, and winrate is meaningless
Like Singed has the highest winrate mid iirc
eternal palm
AP twitch is a solo q special, doesn’t work in a constructed environment like clash
dim kindle
Idk, as far as I can tell Twitch mid specifically is ... not really a thing
it is but its pretty recent
its very cheesy and can be very hard to deal with uncoordinated solo q lobbies
especially if you mostly play mages
very cancer
eternal palm
eh, it's something you should be able to deal with mid, at least in lane. it was way more snowbally bot/jungle when it was first popping up
especially since wintry is a ziggs otp, just shove them under tower, ward and play towards your strong side, and you can control their roams early
dim kindle
it actually has good wave clear thats the problem and you cant always get a perfect shove
the only time you are safe if you freeze the wave on your side
its a cheese pick but its not actually just nonsense trash with easy counterplay
eternal palm
good wave clear sure, it's still not ziggs level wave clear
dim kindle
you cant really just afk shove waves as a mage early game unless your jgl/supp are actively protecting your blind spots
As i said ideally you freeze on your side, hope your team respects the roam and then crash wave
when your jgl is around or you have good info on enemy jgl you can shove
wheat notch
especially since wintry is a ziggs otp, just shove them under tower, ward and pl...
i ltierally was not allowed to do this
twitch e did in fact
do more than my spells
on minions
dim kindle
^
wheat notch
and if i tried shoving regardless he'd rail me with hob q w autoautoauto (hob) auto auto auto e
and i cant do shit !
eternal palm
you're also not freezing during the first gank timer. you know first gank is going to come around ~2:55 unless it's a cheese gank, and freezing the wave in the matchup incentivizes the twitch to roam. Lane needs to be played out from level 1 when you have an advantage
dim kindle
level 7 he litteraly tossed w and uses e once its ticked up and wave is gone
dim kindle
you're also not freezing during the first gank timer. you know first gank is goi...
this is all true yes
wheat notch
and i was no longer in the game
wheat notch
👍
dim kindle
I am just trying to explain that the narrative of lol you are a mage just push him in is only situationslly correct and still leaves you vulnerable
if you are not on a mage its easier
wheat notch
its least correct acknowledging im a ziggs player
dim kindle
pick yone and faceroll him free all g
wheat notch
bc this champ does not even one tap backrow until luden
unless i take demat but im 50/50 on inspo vs dom 2ndary
dim kindle
i dont know ziggs breakpoints but have you tried miniom demst?
wheat notch
i only take demat to kill frontline
dim kindle
oh lol i was just about to ask
dim kindle
Its helped me a lot on syndra
wheat notch
and roleplay a real champ
dim kindle
1 on caster and lvl 7 q onehits caster
wheat notch
It's weird for me bc sometimes inspo feels amazing and then its dogshit so i switch to dom which feels amazing and then its dogshit
u cant win with this champ 😭
dim kindle
ziggs must be a nightmare to play sometimes ye
wheat notch
It's so coinflip lol
dim kindle
too many perma ban champs
wheat notch
its not even ab permabans its the fact that its just an outdated champ and others do it better
dim kindle
cant wait to have to use my ban on kassadin every game pre season patch when im mid
wheat notch
id go main sera but i cba
prisma ravine
Twitch shouldnt be able to waveclear for long, his mana management is awful
wheat notch
or swain or ori
dim kindle
Twitch shouldnt be able to waveclear for long, his mana management is awful
if you don't know you dont know but early game he indeed doesnt clear well
wheat notch
Twitch shouldnt be able to waveclear for long, his mana management is awful
this doesnt matter if he can super shove and recall in time for cannon wave
and i cant match bc im worse
or if i do match/ shove he fucks me over from stealth
dim kindle
mid you litteraly get a free reset every third wave if you oneshot waves like twitch does post level 5 ish
wheat notch
ziggs must be a nightmare to play sometimes ye
😀
prisma ravine
Ziggs is just bad sadly
wheat notch
demoted from p2 to p4 now im in high p3 again
dim kindle
play syndra
wheat notch
I would rather die
prisma ravine
He's a champ who should be getting buffs but doesnt because "lmao his winrate is totally fine"
Just Riot balance
wheat notch
he's a champ who should be getting buffs but he doesn't bc he's actually good downstairs
instead of the role designed for him
so if they do buff him he just goes 53% wr in botlane brrrr
prisma ravine
Oh no
The meaningless stat would be high in bot lane
What a travesty
He would still not be good in bot
dim kindle
he is good bot
wheat notch
like ur just speaking out of ur ass
dim kindle
better than mid
prisma ravine
So insane that he was never picked or banned in solo Q and saw 0 play in competitive
dim kindle
in correct comp
dim kindle
Ziggs budget for buffs mostly went into his nuke tower gimmick over the years instead of things that help his laning
thats the problem
prisma ravine
He had like 3 picks in spring season in LCK last time he was played at all
By comparison Caitlyn had 189
dim kindle
ability to wave clear is less critical in bot lane so he does better since he will still outdo marksmen
ok why are we talking about pro
wheat notch
tsk why does leaguepedia only show 2022
prisma ravine
I mean in Solo Q he also hovered around 1% pick rate
Which is also very indicative of a not good™️ champion
dim kindle
its completely irrelevant to what we were talking about imo
prisma ravine
The problem is that a lot of players, and for some reason Riot, have this weird misconception that win rate reflects power
prisma ravine
Despite the fact that we know it doesnt, and instinctively most people can guess it doesnt
prisma ravine
Uh
prisma ravine
What do you have that from
prisma ravine
U gg doesnt go back that far for me
wheat notch
2021
prisma ravine
Ah
wheat notch
when ziggs was insane
prisma ravine
Were going waaay back
wheat notch
which is what i am talking about
prisma ravine
I was thinking this year
prisma ravine
Yeah fair then
prisma ravine
... my sense of time is fucked up, ngl
wheat notch
what gave u the impression i was talking about current year
prisma ravine
I swear it was this year
prisma ravine
Either way, the problem is that winrate is completely worthless and unusable for gauging a champs power
But Riot instead uses it as if it perfectly reflects power
Hence why Lee was literally the best champ and pick/ban broken around worlds last year, but saw like 7 much weaker junglers being nerfed before he was
Or why Heimer was nerfed when the consensus was that Heimer sucked
Oh yeah durability update was this year
Im surprised they didnt do that in a preseason
Felt like we were missing some key item changes for it
Like how assassin items are even more dogshit now than they already were
wheat notch
9% pr "only around 1%"
Anyway they're not buffing Ziggs because he'd fuck up botlane instantly 👍 👍
He still had 14 LPL playoffs games after having his mana cut by 60 with a 57% wr
only after they made his E fucking dogshit did he fall off
prisma ravine
Wasnt it 8? I swear it was 8
wheat notch
only after they made his E fucking dogshit did he fall off
Even then he got 4 LCK playoffs picks, winning 3
wheat notch
Wasnt it 8? I swear it was 8
prisma ravine
Also wasnt his mana cut and the E nerf at the same time
wheat notch
Anyway he saw no major league play after 11.16 (11.17 onward)
Because losing 20% of your slow on Lv1 is actually backbreaking
Especially when it's the ability you max last 🙃
prisma ravine
Either way, right now Ziggs has room to buff in botlane too
Plus, its not like they havent made changes to push people out of bot before
wheat notch
But they don't want to buff Ziggs meaningfully
Because Ziggs is terribly unfun to play against
dim kindle
He has room for buffs but not a lot because the issue is that he does actually become incredibly strong once the game opens up and he can clear and control objectives
prisma ravine
Implying they dont buff champs that are unfun to play against
dim kindle
but if you dont get past lane in a non awful position it doesnt matter
eternal palm
ziggs bot was insane
prisma ravine
Vi got like 3 buffs
eternal palm
had a 70% winrate with ziggs bot last season
dim kindle
who cares about vi
eternal palm
also ziggs isnt even that unfun to play against
prisma ravine
I do, because I want to make sure she is never playable
eternal palm
you want unfun to play against? Yone
dim kindle
^
prisma ravine
Hate her ult that her designer literally admitted was made to have 0 counterplay
wheat notch
also ziggs isnt even that unfun to play against
i get
so much whining
if ziggs is playable
prisma ravine
Like his design goal was "what if I made a champ that has 0 counterplay", as if that wasnt a profoundly bad idea
eternal palm
people are babies, that's not a surprise
dim kindle
How can you look at leagues roster and pick vi to have a problem with lmfao
prisma ravine
She is the reason I stopped playing ADC 🤷
dim kindle
she is about linear as it gets and targetted cc is not inherently toxic
prisma ravine
They made a few changes to give more counterplay
But back then Vi ulted you from 1550 range and you died
It was extremely toxic
dim kindle
I dont give a shit about vi pressing r on me and me dying about it because it was my fault for giving her the option
prisma ravine
Even now, its not just targetted CC, its targetted CC on a champ with a free-form dash that is also uncleansable, un-QSSable and unstoppable
wheat notch
Anyway I'll test Rod of Ages on him, and see how new tower plates work. If he fucking sucks still I'm dropping him (after accruing 1,4mil points since Season 8) and picking up a real champion because I get genuinely annoyed now
this dude blows asssssssss
no dmg
no waveclear
no roam
dim kindle
i highly doubt rod will be worth on ziggs
wheat notch
what is the point
prisma ravine
I dont give a shit about vi pressing r on me and me dying about it because it wa...
It was your fault for ... being within 1550 range of her, which is larger than sight range?
I highly doubt rod will be worth on anyone tbh
wheat notch
i highly doubt rod will be worth on ziggs
just checking the stat stick
prisma ravine
Depends on what version ships
wheat notch
bc like
doing crown + sflame + rabs shit a while ago
was kinda nice?
bc of all the ap
until they bought a single mr item and i no longer did dmg
because im all base numbers no %
wheat notch
I was building Crown because it's the most AP out of any Mythic
eternal palm
yeah, that's mathematically not a good reason to build crown
dim kindle
its indeed not correct to build crown for that reason
wheat notch
It's cheap too
faster spikes
for a champ that lives and dies by them
crusty ass screenshot from july this year
prisma ravine
I mean core was busted initially
dim kindle
its a good item but if you build it into 4 ranged its still grief
prisma ravine
Crown I mean
dim kindle
lmao
prisma ravine
It was busted on everyone tbh
wheat notch
"hey we made this artillery item for artillery champs"
prisma ravine
Viktor was so busted initially
wheat notch
it was dogshit on ziggs and i wouldn't've bought it on other artilleries
bc luden and liandry were more dmg
prisma ravine
Was Viktor still not nerfed?
prisma ravine
Ah no, slight Q nerf recently
dim kindle
Viktor got nerfed very fast after season patch
eternal palm
this just brings me back to my point of
prisma ravine
No wait, 12.10 not 12.20
eternal palm
people love complaining about late game mages, 1 shotting them at 3 items while having the highest farm in the game
like no shit that's going to happen
wheat notch
anyway give me back horizon focus you stinky rioters
"Hey we made this cool stat stick for Artillery mages!"
"We noticed only Artillery mages were buying this item so we're going to make it dogshit for the sake of 'making it more flexible for more champs'"
i was so confused
dim kindle
vik q got nerfed on durability patch like all shields
12.10 was durability
i was actually thinking about season 10 lol
im trolling
eternal palm
durability patch was a massive failure btw. It's as big of a failure as the assassin rework patch
dim kindle
i disagree very much
prisma ravine
Yeah just after the durability patch, Viktor became the best champ mid
And I kept being surprised he never got nerfed after that
Which means he still wasnt nerfed
wheat notch
eternal palm
I wouldn't call vik the best champ mid either
wheat notch
It's almost like you made it for a niche class of champion
I don't get this at all lmao
prisma ravine
He might not be the best champ mid now, but initially he 100% was
Champ was freelo
dim kindle
he was extremely good for a lot of patches after 12.10 but it self regulated because mid meta had moved to heavy priority/skirmish focus
now
prisma ravine
Tbh my biggest issue is that assassins and assassin itemisation just suck right now
eternal palm
I just want to play fizz again
dim kindle
but yea for a while after 12.10 he was nerf worthy but clearly they were correct in waiting
prisma ravine
Zed is the only one thats like, alright
dim kindle
Tbh my biggest issue is that assassins and assassin itemisation just suck right ...
highly disagree
prisma ravine
My favourite part was when they said they wanted Eclipse to become a fighter item
Yknow, take a mythic from the class that had the worst mythic options already, and give one of them to Fighters, the class that has too many mythics to choose from already
eternal palm
I just want to play trinity force sunfire fizz and one shot people, is that so much to ask for
eternal palm
that was the best meta, dont @ me
dim kindle
Eclipse change was very questionable but the change did not make it bad on assassins actually
dim kindle
I just want to play trinity force sunfire fizz and one shot people, is that so m...
die
prisma ravine
It did though
dim kindle
bruiser fizz and ekko were actual warcrimes
prisma ravine
The other mythics are just even worse than it
dim kindle
ad assassins are all in good spots, just not all in mid anymore
prisma ravine
They really arent
Talon is bad everywhere
Kha is ... fine, but rather mediocre in jungle
prisma ravine
Qiyana ... Im not even sure where she is played anymore
eternal palm
nothing pains me more than seeing kha zix build duskblade
dim kindle
kha zix is one of the best solo q junglers in the game
qiyana is one of the best otp champs in the game
prisma ravine
kha zix is one of the best solo q junglers in the game
Youre like a year out of date, Kha is incredibly mediocre
dim kindle
otps litteraly push these champs to insane levels when they arent even supposed to be universally good picks because they are assassins
prisma ravine
Why do you think his ban rate is lower than average now
dim kindle
he is not
prisma ravine
People hate Kha
prisma ravine
And he is still banned less than Zac
eternal palm
it's lower than average because there's def way more banworthy champs than kha
dim kindle
he just isnt being played by every single jungler as usual
eternal palm
doesn't mean kha is in a bad spot
prisma ravine
it's lower than average because there's def way more banworthy champs than kha
He is banned less than Zac
wheat notch
skull
eternal palm
When I feel like trolling
wheat notch
And he is still banned less than *Zac*
not true btw
dim kindle
ad assassins are litteraly not supposed to be champs that you can just pick in every lobby and they are good in every lobby yet people who excel at those champs can still get away with doing exactly that
if kha zix is meta that means he is broken
prisma ravine
Duplicates mess up the math, but Im pretty sure he is in the lower 40% of bans
wheat notch
anyway why ban kha when udyr is out there 
prisma ravine
Like he is not even good enough to get an average amount of bans
dim kindle
you are not supposed to be able to play 5 qiyana games and get the same result as playing 5 games on other champions
prisma ravine
... of course you are?
dim kindle
she is one the singlemost insane wr champs in dedicated otp hands
prisma ravine
I have no idea where you get this weird idea from
Qiyana is one of the most one-tricked champs, not one of the champs who has the best onetricks, too, its just that sample size messes those up
dim kindle
... of course you are?
no you are litteraly not and if we cant even agree to that then im not sure how to continue the conversation tbh
not every champion is balanced around being able to be picked in every lobby and achieve a similar wr result
prisma ravine
Ok if theyre not supposed to be picked every game, then surely you have an example of Riot telling us that
Just one
You dont need many
dim kindle
that is not how mobas work and that is why people get confused by wr statistics
prisma ravine
Just a single one would work
dim kindle
that also doesnt mean that wr statistics are useless as you claim
they just need to be interpreted correctly
prisma ravine
People get confused by WR because its primarily a reflection of difficulty and playerbase dedication
Power is a much much more insignificant factor compared to those two
eternal palm
Does anybody besides OTP's even pick Qiyana in ranked? champ is literally unplayable if you don't know her mechanics
ala Riven
prisma ravine
To the point where it does in fact become useless
If I told you a champ has 48% win rate, you have no idea how strong the champ is
dim kindle
A regular player for the most part cant yes
some people and riot can
no matter what I think of riot their understanding of their own game is actually very very above average most game developers
riot knows that if azir is 48% win rate he is insanely broken the same way they know that singed mid having 55% win rate is fine because they understand their data
prisma ravine
See there are two issues here
One, no they dont, they specifically said that their balance framework looks only at WR
It ignores context
wheat notch
tbf to singed u are not playing league of legends when ur on singed ur playing Singed
prisma ravine
The other problem is, how do they know that? The answer is mastery curves. The problem is, those same mastery curves already tell you how strong a champ is
wheat notch
i feel its like zilean where they just cba to hit it despite being fucked because like 2 people play each champ
prisma ravine
In other words, you need mastery curves to be able to use win rate at all, but you could also just use mastery curves alone and get better accuracy
dim kindle
tbf to singed u are not playing league of legends when ur on singed ur playing S...
Well the way it works is that litteraly 99% of the people playing singed mid are singed otps following a specific strategy that when executed yields you a 55%+ win rate but they know exactly that a large chunk of other champions reach a same if not better win rate by dedicated players of that champion, it just doesnt show up the same way because other people are playing those champions too
while singed only has singed players playing it
prisma ravine
For example, Annie was nerfed earlier this year
Was she OP? No, she was actually subpar
But she had a high win rate, because Annie is a braindead champ
eternal palm
Annie is a low elo stomper
prisma ravine
And high win rate = nerf under their framework
wheat notch
Well the way it works is that litteraly 99% of the people playing singed mid are...
im stnading here with my barely neutral wr in 450 games on ziggs 
dim kindle
One, no they dont, they specifically said that their balance framework looks onl...
their balance frameworks exists in this way to not make the game unpleasant for low level play
prisma ravine
Annie is a low elo stomper
Hilariously she didn't even have a high WR in low elo
wheat notch
i had a neg wr in like 200 a few seasons ago bc it was ziggs' lowest
eternal palm
Annie is actually the best champ in the game to learn lane manipulation with
wheat notch
prisma ravine
No the reason is simple
She had high WR
And their framework ignores mastery curves
Its literally just that
They straight up told us, from the start, that they will ignore mastery curves
eternal palm
Are you suggesting plat players are good? Plat players are just gold/silver players with an IQ higher than 60
wheat notch
p3 70lp im 5,73%
eternal palm
What if I told you, most players are actually just not smart at making decisions, and that's usually the biggest hurdle from gold to plat
dim kindle
if we account for all factors such as bot accounts, smurfs, semi inactive accounts its probably more close to 10% effectively
doesnt change the point though
wheat notch
I still haven't learned how to freeze in the 5 years of playing simply bc I haven't needed to 
dim kindle
What if I told you, most players are actually just not smart at making decisions...
its more about intent and goals when people load up the game
prisma ravine
So yeah, Annie was nerfed because of win rate when she was not good
Because win rate reflects difficulty
A broken hard champ will always have a much lower winrate than a mediocre easy champion
(Well almost, it also depends on playerbase distribution)
eternal palm
There's some actual mechanically gifted players in gold, that grief their leads off not knowing something simple like gank timings, map proximity etc
dim kindle
yeah those experiences are always weird ngl
prisma ravine
It's also why Lee wasn't nerfed when he was turbo-broken, he had like a 49% win rate or smthg
dim kindle
get smurfed on by some 12 year old on absolute cocaine in lane and then just win the game anyway because he manages to completely invalidate himself post lane
prisma ravine
Kha was nerfed way earlier, despite not even being that good at the time
dim kindle
riot most definitely does not strictly stick to their balance framework
its a loose framework no matter what they claimed
i dont remember what exactly they said
prisma ravine
They do, ish
dim kindle
i do remember the blogpost
prisma ravine
Basically, they can make changes outside of it
But if it trips the metrics
Its a nerf
Thats why Annie was nerfed when she wasnt good
Why Heimer was nerfed when he wasnt good
eternal palm
it usually goes like this:
eternal palm
early season they lean towards making low elo play stable
prisma ravine
No she wasnt
She was bad
Well subpar, but I digress
She had a high win rate
But she wasnt good
eternal palm
Mid to late pro season they focus on stabling pro play
wheat notch
the 49% in the middle is so funny
Fuck it I'm netdecking the high elo Ziggs players (there is no midlane Ziggs player they're all adc players lol)
prisma ravine
Remember, Annie is braindead, her win rate will always be higher
wheat notch
Fuck it I'm netdecking the high elo Ziggs players (there is no midlane Ziggs pla...
comet liandry makes me want to puke.
dim kindle
Fuck it I'm netdecking the high elo Ziggs players (there is no midlane Ziggs pla...
ye im pretty sure only time ziggs gets picked higher elo is when control mage players for fun a game or when adcs are 4th or 5th pick and the entire team went full ad
and they happen to not like seraphine
or she was picked by enemy
prisma ravine
Same with Heimer, he was widely considered actually bad
eternal palm
Wint, just play Ziggs, Seraphine + 1 pocket pick to sure up your weaknesses
wheat notch
prisma ravine
Im pretty sure Tyler1 at the time even played Heimer as a challenge
wheat notch
im netdecking this person rn
eternal palm
last season I played Ziggs, Seraphine and Sylas
wheat notch
most played is ziggs by a lot
prisma ravine
Just play Swain and be based
wheat notch
Wint, just play Ziggs, Seraphine + 1 pocket pick to sure up your weaknesses
my pool is sera swain ori i dont need picks
dim kindle
uh heimer was actually unironically good at some point in the last 3 years when he got nerfed once but I dont remember when exactly that was
wheat notch
I just want to play Ziggs
prisma ravine
Was he good
Or did he have a high win rate
Because if the latter, thats when he was nerfed, if the former, Im not sure when that was
eternal palm
are you referring to heimer jungle?
dim kindle
okay but now you are the one throwing around the word good without meaning
what do you think makes a champ good then
prisma ravine
I know that at the time Heimer had like ~1.1% pick rate top and <0.5% pick rate mid
wheat notch
low pickrate doesnt mean a champ isnt good
zilean is fucking overpowered
to all hell
dim kindle
because pickrate is not exactly a great indicator by itself either
prisma ravine
No, it isnt
dim kindle
the playerbase gets caught up in trends very badly
eternal palm
so it goes like this
dim kindle
i disagree with that
prisma ravine
But a champion being good means that well, they're good. They perform well when played by a person who knows how to play them compared to other players on champs they know how to play
dim kindle
with a champion pool this large pick rates can change rapidly for random reasons outside of actual champion strength all the time
prisma ravine
They can, yes
eternal palm
players play simple champions/champions they find fun
players copy pro players, and those champs start getting picked
pro players realize x champion in x role has actually been op for months and they start picking it
prisma ravine
But ultimately win rate is about as accurate as a coinflip
And pick rate is something like 70% accuracy
70% is godawful
eternal palm
that's the solo q experience in a nutshell
prisma ravine
But 50% is worse
dim kindle
ppl didnt play caitlyn when she was really good for a really long time already until they buffed her 3 more times in a row and then ppl suddenly realized wait she is good
but she wouldve already been a good pick without those buffs if people had tried
eternal palm
minus Azir, people don't pick Azir because they don't have 2 hands
prisma ravine
Like if you look at historical best and worst champs
You will find that win rate actually tended to not align
Of the 5 most broken champs of all time, 4 had sub-50%
(The exception is release LB)
dim kindle
but again a 50% sub win rate can still mean a champion is insanely strong lol
prisma ravine
Yes, but it does also show why win rate is bad at reflecting power
prisma ravine
Likewise, of the 5 worst champs in season 1-2, the ones that made up the troll tier, only one didn't have 54% win rate.
dim kindle
unless they are clueless
prisma ravine
And that was Evelyn
Heimer, Urgot, Poppy and ... god I forgot who was number 4
They all had 54%-55%
And they were troll picks
The troll tier was even called the Heimer tier for ages
dim kindle
they were percieved as troll picks
prisma ravine
No, they werent "percieved" as troll picks, they were troll picks
Riot even came out later stating that Urgot was intentionally made functionally unplayable back then
dim kindle
no they were situational specialist picks that dont do well when just randomly picked in any lobby
prisma ravine
And that he needed buffs but didnt get them because they didnt like his design
prisma ravine
no they were situational specialist picks that dont do well when just randomly p...
No, they were troll picks
They didnt do well in any situation, except when played by OTPs against players who didnt know what the champs did because no one played them
There was never any reason to pick any of them
dim kindle
what am i wrong about
prisma ravine
About them not being troll picks
dim kindle
measured by what
prisma ravine
Riot literally back then told us they were troll picks, and that if they had the biggest gap in matchups against specific players (Rather than champs)
dim kindle
how do you measure "In no situation is this champ worth picking over X"
prisma ravine
By looking at all situations, doing the filter by player, and seeing that when playing against specific players (who knew how those champs worked), the champ always performed really poorly?
dim kindle
because imo there is no real way to measure that correctly
prisma ravine
Like Heimer was a champ where if you knew how he worked, you always won
dim kindle
Like Heimer was a champ where if you knew how he worked, you always won
idk this means absolutely nothing to me
with how specific champions can excel
prisma ravine
Ok let me rephrase it
If there was a situation where Heimer, and the others, were worth picking
It simply never happened
dim kindle
see the issue for me there is that knowing the win condition vs a champion doesnt mean that win condition can always be achieved
just because you know how a champion becomes made irrelevant means that is always executable
through a billion varying factors in a game such as league of legends
prisma ravine
Sure, but if there was a situation in which it couldnt be achieved
It also didnt happen
dim kindle
what does that even mean
prisma ravine
We can speculate about something that never happened all we want, but since it never happened, we can't say
There were specific players against which Heimerdinger always lost
No matter the situation
Therefore, we can say that if there was a situation in which Heimerdinger was good
Its a hypothetical one we never observed
dim kindle
im not trying to be thick
but that once again means nothing to me
I think approaching the game like theoretical physics is not correct
prisma ravine
I mean youre the one working in theory here
Im telling you that practically Heimerdinger was bad in every situation
dim kindle
what you are essentially trying to say is that season 1 heimerdinger's way of winning had counterplay that high skill bracket players were very good at playing around meaning vs those players heimerdinger had a signifcantly lower win rate than average play
prisma ravine
Oh not high skill bracket players
They were across all skill levels
Most commonly people who played a lot of Heimer before
But yes, essentially that
dim kindle
that does not mean that the champ had no viable situations
there are way too many factors in comparing champions to establish that and we dont have a computer in the world that could possibly calculate that
prisma ravine
You cant prove a negative
But you can disprove a positive
We dont know for sure if there were no viable situations. But we do know that all situations we know of were not viable
dim kindle
which to me is not enough to support that sentiment in a game like league of legends
in other games I wouldve agreed a long time ago
prisma ravine
So what youre saying is
Its theoretically possible that there may have been a viable situation that just never happened by pure chance
Therefore the troll picks werent troll picks but "situational" picks because such a situation was theoretically possible?
dim kindle
riot has the balance framework they way they have it because it at minimum tries to guarantee that there is a somewhat sensible level of power for all brackets
it doesnt have to be and doesnt need to be perfect because it cant
prisma ravine
No, actually, if they wanted that they would use mastery curves, which they specifically said they wont
dim kindle
and certain champions need to be treated differently
prisma ravine
The reason they use the framework they have is unclear, but my suspicion is perception of balance
Most players arent very well versed and think that win rate reflects power
So nerfing by winrate makes people think balance is good, because they see what they think as too strong addressed
dim kindle
they dont use mastery curves because mastery curve balancing would bias the balancing towards elite play which is a minority of the playerbase
prisma ravine
No?
Champ difficulty is relative to the field
There is a big gap in a first time and 100th time Azir in Bronze too
You also can in fact just use mastery curves by elo
The reason they dont use mastery curves is because mastery curves accurately reflect power ... which means that when people compare balancing to win rate, it would look odd
Lee at 49% would be nerfed way before Kha at 52%
At least, thats my suspicion
dim kindle
yes but the disparity will still be higher in elite
prisma ravine
We dont know actually
Based on the mastery curves we have seen, probably not, but that was just a comparison between plat+ and master+
Regardless, mastery curves dont matter for the disparity either, because you only care about the plateau
The only real concern is sample size
But lower elos have enough players that even a lower sample size relative to the rest of the champs should be enough
dim kindle
their framework is certainly not perfect but I think their idea is having a simple standard that achieves their primary goal
which is generally to make the game as pleasant for average play as possible while also still controlling higher brackets
because as a f2p game they need people sticking around
prisma ravine
The problem is, it doesnt achieve their primary goal (if that is "making the game reasonably balanced at all levels), it completely misses the mark on higher brackets (Lee was pick/ban broken at worlds and was not nerfed for like half a year) and its not like using mastery curve makes it less simple
Like an easy alternative is, figure out mastery curve marks, and then say "if this champs mastery curve plateau is above X%, we look into a nerf, if its below Y%, we look into a buff"
Just as simple, actually catches higher brackets, and does a better job at keeping the game more balanced
It also, unlike their current framework, doesn't have the unintended effect of making easy champs on average much weaker, and making it harder for newer players to get into the game
Or conversely pushing top level play into exclusively harder champs, which it also does
eternal palm
Lee was not pick/ban broken at worlds lol, Lee will always have a niche because A. He’s been changed very little since release B. He has huge playmaking potential along with mobility
Lee, Ori, Ornn, Thresh, these are all champions that even when not meta will pop up at worlds due to their flexibility and playmaking potential
dim kindle
imo proplay is another matter but he is correct about lee
proplay balance is entirely oriented around presence
the general framework doesnt apply
prisma ravine
Lee was not pick/ban broken at worlds lol, Lee will always have a niche because ...
I was being pretty literal
He was 98% pick/ban total
And Im pretty sure semi onwards he was 100%
dim kindle
lee was historically very often a champion that dodged changes above average long
prisma ravine
Like he was quite literally pick/ban broken, and several of the games lost in semi-finals were because they didnt ban Lee when they should've
Which even was noted as a blunder in champ select back then
dim kindle
yes and this year it was yuumi
dim kindle
aatrox too
dim kindle
yuumi was 100% post group stage not sure about entire event
eternal palm
It’s very hard to look at a draft with Lee in it and Come to the conclusion of “yeah Lee sin won that draft”
sinful frost
Or Caitlyn
Also depends which pool of games you look at (e.g. including play-ins or not)
eternal palm
Unless the Lee literally had multiple fight changing kicks
But draft analysis is completely different from champ balance
prisma ravine
Main event was 100% Aatrox, 95% Yuumi
If you include playins neither was 100% obviously
prisma ravine
It’s very hard to look at a draft with Lee in it and Come to the conclusion of “...
Not last years worlds
Lee was actually disgusting
Like he could control basically the whole map, make the enemy jungler irrelevant, and just get his team so far ahead so early
Like EDG vs ... Gen G?
Clid got a kill on the enemy jungler during a herald fight super early, after jumping over a wall from out of sight range, and then also casually secured herald and scared the rest of the team off
The game was over at that point
sinful frost
ARAM OUTTA NOWHERE
https://www.leagueoflegends.com/en-us/news/game-updates/aram-2023-preview/
summary
more balance levers than just damage up and down
e.g. resource regen speed and tenacity
increased scaling on non-ultimate long range damage
hexgates
more bushes
slight terrain changes as towers fall
prisma ravine
Those towers are 100% going to cause pathing issues lmao
Mostly solid changes, but its a bit weird they're nerfing artillery mages
Because those are like legit pretty mediocre?
sinful frost
patches are about behavior
it's not if AP Kai'Sa poke is good
it's if players enjoy playing against it
prisma ravine
No Im not biased because I find AP Kaisa very fun
dim kindle
I really like the aram changed because the dmg modifiers can be very unfun
prisma ravine
I mean thats honestly fair
sinful frost
prisma ravine
I do like AP Kaisa more for the versatility
Plus W is still a nuke up-close, which is fun
Healing reduction was sorely needed, but I dont think it curbs ADCs enough
dim kindle
probably not
but they at least know the issue of how impactful being able to heal up is
prisma ravine
True
Time for Kha to continue healing with W
I do think we maybe needed like
Small sidelanes for Assassins to be less shite on ARAM
Because ngl, playing vs +% damage done and -% damage taken just because the class is so bad in ARAM is not really fun
sinful frost
It's All Random All Mid
Not All Random Mostly Mid
prisma ravine
Are you implying the river around mid isnt part of mid?
dim kindle
it wasnt in og custom lobby aram
ppl would get mad if you went past brush
talking about brushes - i love the new little brush because it reminds me of original twisted treeline where everyone would rush to bot bush
prisma ravine
Or fighting on the red buff, thats what I remember
The "new" Twisted Treeline came out 10 years ago
dim kindle
God
dim kindle
my initial time playing league was exclusively old twisted
until I reached 30 i think
then i tried rift
dim kindle
I kind of regret not playing 3v3 more later on but the meta was pretty awful
prisma ravine
Yes and no
It had its issues, but I actually enjoyed it
Although I do wish we would at least get Nexus Blitz back
dim kindle
i dont know the full history of 3v3 meta but at least when I played it more in depth it was essentially just funnel + solo laner top
once you got too diamond+
and it felt very stale
or was it solo lane bot
im not sure anymore
prisma ravine
Funnel was around for a bit, but I think they nerfed it hard
dim kindle
i played only half a year or so really tryhard on it and that was it so makes sense
season 6 or 7 maybe im not sure when
ill look it up later
sinful frost
bring back lane swaps
eternal palm
Lane swaps are still a viable strat imo
dim kindle
well bot lane quasi swaps to take herald but then go back bot in pro
in solo q itll never hold unless its necessary
sullen crystal
I don't really like this swain skin at all
dim kindle
i like the bird but other than that its pretty low on my list
wheat notch
yea.
wheat notch
though my favourite is still tyrant
I like Tyrant a lot for his model and q but his other abilities made me go for Crystal Rose
or was it specifically ult, i think his ult was goofy af
his ult is fine
it's the w and e that felt mid to me compared to rose
dim kindle
I just like tyrant thematically so much and i used it a lot with og swain
prisma ravine
ARAM has its own matchmaking tbf
wheat notch
I just like tyrant thematically so much and i used it a lot with og swain
ye the thematic is sick and thats fair
i didnt have income to get skins when i actually grinded og swain so i didnt bother
eternal palm
Yo wint, let me spectate you on ziggs one day
wheat notch
Yo wint, let me spectate you on ziggs one day
You won't see good gameplay
I've become continuously worse at hitting my skillshots + my gameplay in general
Aw.
I didn't hit P II
sinful frost
nothing particularly new
but these are (presumably) the final changes coming to live
wheat notch
I've become continuously worse at hitting my skillshots + my gameplay in general
In conclusion I'm washed up lol
I never put in the effort to improve tbf
I really should but I never had the willpower after realising going pro is soooo not happening
esp when the local scene is nothing more than a side gig at best for people who peaked masters/like 2 gm people in the scene
eternal palm
I mean I feel that
I'm a scrub mechanically compared to my friends, but they value my shotcalling due to my knowledge of game states, team comps, etc
sullen crystal
I am simply a scrub
wheat notch
I'm a scrub mechanically compared to my friends, but they value my shotcalling d...
well yuo see i don't shotcall either
i am quite literally above average only because I've played thousands of games on a single champ over multiple years
eternal palm
Same for me, my game knowledge is only so vast because I've literally been playing since season 1
wheat notch
ok but i do not have this game knowledge
i have not applied it and it withers away
I literally never learned to freeze and when I watched a solid . 2. videos on it I never applied it so I never learned
prisma ravine
Honestly I found I have way more fun with League when I stopped trying to get high ranks
wheat notch
or wave mgmt in general
prisma ravine
It takes way too much time and its just frustrating
wheat notch
besides "recall when the cannon wave spawns™️"
wheat notch
I want high ranks
I want to compete
I want to represent my country on the big stages ! !
Which is why I've gotten a lot worse at the game after realising the dream is never happening
even Valorant had top Latvian players on teams like G2 and FPX 
sullen crystal
like a high rank would be nice but I just want the ability to stop getting stomped when my friends make my mmr higher in normals 😔
night marsh
@wheat notch wave management goes a long way
Learn that and you’ll probably win a few games for free
wheat notch
Definitely!
However, this requires me to think
after I've spent a lot of time playing effectively autopilot
eternal palm
Difference is, Wintry has to autopilot on Ziggs, you got to autopilot on Gwen when she was a terror
night marsh
She was a terror for like 2 months
The other 80% of the season, you were just gimping yourself
wheat notch
Our definitions of cool
are wildly, wildly different
I would rather play 2013 Karakuri vs IshTear for the rest of my life than touch Viktor ever again
prisma ravine
Whats not to like about blowing up an ADC as soon as he gets in range while controlling the battlefield
wheat notch
A lot!
wheat notch
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RXYnKlKtico
My son,,,
sullen crystal
so do we know what incarnation of roa and archangels made it in
prisma ravine
Probably not until we get the patchnotes
It looks like its the version with Eternity
sinful frost
I could be wrong
But they did a rollback on both RoA and Arch on the last PBE parch
Unrelatedly
Zeri and Mundo reworks
ANOTHER PIVOT
prisma ravine
Ok so the final version of RoA is old RoA, with 200 more mana, the level passive and the mythic passive for 600 more gold
Yeah its gonna be bad
slim terrace
bruh
sinful frost
Changing Lillia to a melee champion to be more intuitive with how she attacks. We expect this to be a slight nerf to her, so we’re preemptively buffing her passive.
nerf
sullen crystal
man
the only reason I was interested in roa returning was them changing archangels
and they can't even do that
night marsh
"Changing Lillia to a melee champion to be more intuitive with how she attacks. We expect this to be a slight nerf to her, so we’re preemptively buffing her passive." ????
are they changing the actual range or just the classification of her attacks
because how would that be a nerf
prisma ravine
They got the two words mixed up
Its a buff, so her pasive is getting a slight nerf
prisma ravine
Oh looks like were getting a new Ashen skin
... ok this one kinda slaps
I might have to cash in
dim kindle
that ult wow
i dont like the model thaaaat much but the sound design and ult next level
night marsh
that's a really good skin
but project still #1
it does have a music buff tho
so maybe it ends up being the best since you can time stuff based on it
slim terrace
fml of course when they make this skin series good again it's on a champ I don't play
night marsh
just waiting for the next gwen skin
prisma ravine
fml of course when they make this skin series good again it's on a champ I don't...
Not playing Mordekaiser
See there's your issue
Ah but I already have a Morde skin >.>
dim kindle
morde is the good type of simple imo
eternal palm
Eh agree to disagree. Annie and Warwick are the good type of simple
eternal palm
Annie teaches you proper lane manipulation + trade patterns
Morde stat checks you to death
night marsh
nah
eternal palm
One is productive towards learning the game
night marsh
morde teaches you how to count to 3
eternal palm
The other isn’t
eternal palm
morde teaches you how to count to 3
A skill very rare in Yugioh players
sullen crystal
man I love when rengar jumps on me and literally one shots me thanks to dirk and electrocute
what a well designed character
sullen crystal
yawn other lanes getting ahead ruining the game
why can't people just stop feeding
and why can't I stop feeding
eternal palm
and why can't I stop feeding
The important question
sullen crystal
I mean I know why but I can't change it
eternal palm
What’s the reason?
sullen crystal
I'm bad
eternal palm
That’s nothing you can’t change
Send a vod of one of your game’s, we can see exactly what you mean by bad
sullen crystal
I have no idea how to actually save replays lmao
prisma ravine
Post-game screen, I think there is like a download or replay icons somewhere?
sullen crystal
oh sure
slim terrace
you can also do it through match history
sullen crystal
I mean I know a lot of stuff I already do wrong I just never fix any of it
can't do wave manipulation, my mechanics are poopy, not good at gank timings or roams etc
eternal palm
I find from watching a lot of my friends vods, that sometimes what they think is the issue, is not actually the issue
You benefit from having somebody else’s opinion imo
sullen crystal
mayhaps
slim terrace
upload it here and we'll roast you
sullen crystal
sullen crystal
man I love using everything I have to try and escape from morde and all he has to do is keep me in range of his aoe to kill me
prisma ravine
Well, he is slow and the AoE runs out if he doesnt attack or Q you, so yeah, basically
sullen crystal
he's not that slow if he has full boots before I do
a poor little adc vs jungle morde is always going to be a bad time
man has the protean item and I have kraken slayer and he literally doesn't take damage
sinful frost
time to experiment with clears for non-standard junglers
control mages in the jungle new meta
dapper kite
adc junglers
sullen crystal
man the past games I've had have been so dogshit I don't even want to share them
idk what it is but I've been playing astronomically worse than normal recently
eternal palm
What adc do you play that you can’t 1v1 morde
sullen crystal
I don't play adc I got filled
eternal palm
An okay, what position do you play normally?
sullen crystal
I was playing kai'sa and I had kraken he had protean + steelcaps
normally I play top/mid but I keep having to fill other roles cause I play with friends
eternal palm
Yeah kaisa should live in realm vs morde, unless you had a massive health disadvantage
sullen crystal
I popped ult and heal and I just couldn't do anything to him
I lived through realm I just died very shortly after
eternal palm
You can’t pop ult first since you don’t have the damage to kill him that early
sullen crystal
I popped it for the shield
eternal palm
You have to kite up or down hugging the opposite side of the wall, using E to try to dodge his Q, then after you dodge the first Q, you kite back and ult back to the side you started, giving you a pathway out
sullen crystal
skill issue then ig
eternal palm
Anyways, post one of your mid/top videos when you get a chance, I mained top for 5 seasons, mid for 2, and adc for 4
It’s what made me realize top is actually the worst role in the game
sullen crystal
I'd love to post one but I haven't been able to play those roles in a hot minute
dim kindle
Yeah kaisa should live in realm vs morde, unless you had a massive health disadv...
dunno morde can definitely just stat check out sometimes
late game kaisa definitely shreds him but 1 item kaisa dunno
wouldnt agree with the blanket statement
sullen crystal
I don't know what's going on man
it feels like I do nothing and everyone oneshots me recently
I've lost like 6 games in a row and all of them have been crushing defeats
dim kindle
well sometimes you may be getting matched vs better players a lot and that can definitely be a frustrating experience
I mean the muscle memory and knowledge to know limits etc takes thousands upon thousands of games to acquire
you shouldnt feel bad
sullen crystal
I mean I shouldn't but
dim kindle
I get it
sullen crystal
it feels awful going through so many games where you can't do anything and you just get roflstomped
dim kindle
just try to have a takeaway from every game
try to figure out what you feel like you did wrong that game and work on it the next one
step by step
but the problem is even knowing what you did wrong is very hard
when getting stomped too much
its why league is such a hard game to get into in 2022
the fundamentals take soooo long to acquire
night marsh
sheesh
night marsh
uh, count to 4 really
and e is an attack reset
champ is pretty simple
I guess one of the smaller things is don't be afraid to readjust your w
sinful frost
damn this jungle viktor is really not working out for me
night marsh
@sinful frost what do you think of the jungle changes
It’s too@much reading for me so im@never playing the role again but my jg friend said he loved it
dim kindle
its essentially everyone clears better or same as before and with more health, non junglers deal less damage to camps
seems like jgls are even stronger now in terms of gold/xp
sinful frost
<@99170554476515328> what do you think of the jungle changes
haven't put enough time to have a feel for them
but by the raw info
it'll make the role less hectic, I think
especially in the early game
dim kindle
routing is simplified because crab spawns 15s later again
sinful frost
opens up more champions to potentially jungle
not sure how many new champs will actually be competitive in the jungle
I'm experimenting with control mages in the jungle right now
dim kindle
herald only takes 1 plate so p sure in solo q ppl will prio dragons + bot even more
sinful frost
it should significantly reduce the likelihood of early invades and vertical clears
the way treats and pets work slightly encourage more farming
which I like because I like farming
eternal palm
Shit, we back to 5 manning bot at 5 minutes?
wheat notch
Well that's one way to start preseason
(I had a triple kill handed to me on a silver platter as I auto'd people to death at drake)
These new pings are so fucking ugly
Well maybe ugly is the wrong word, they seem 'clunky' or 'laggy'
slim terrace
I like them tbh
unrelated, I forgot how powerful level 16 kassadin makes you feel
granted my opponent picked syndra into me then got solokilled at like level 4, but holy shit I literally deleted half their team through a flank, including a fed late game sivir
R cooldown at literally 1 second my beloved ❤️
wheat notch
I like them tbh
They're nice to use but idk it just looks bad to me
like u know how old pings are kinda
mmm
snappy?
idk if thats the right word
Like the lines under the icon just feel bad to me
On some of them at least, the missing ping being a big one
also how the icon itself doesn't move as much (i think? i dont have old pings on hand to compare)
dim kindle
unrelated, I forgot how powerful level 16 kassadin makes you feel
kassadin abuser 
dim kindle
Shit, we back to 5 manning bot at 5 minutes?
always has been
eternal palm
Tbh though
Getting 5 man dove bot really separated the good adc players from the bad ones
wheat notch
fake news @eternal palm
liandrys fucking suuuuucks
the only real benefit it has over luden is better waveclear
(and tankbusting but youre not killing a mundo with any mythic anyway 🥱 )
eternal palm
Wait what, Luden’s waveclears better, Liandry outperforms Luden’s In drawn out fights
wheat notch
Luden only kills backline with passive
which has a cd
liandry has no cd so it kills backline every time
eternal palm
Yeah, but you’re still throwing the 2nd q at frontline regardless
wheat notch
it just means youre wasting extra mana to 2 shot backline which is worse to clear
i can toss 2 qs without having luden up
eternal palm
But yeah keeping Liandry’s passive up is always outperforming Luden’s, there’s niche scenarios where you want the immediate burst from Luden’s passive to blow up a priority target, but as Ziggs youre always overkilling those priority targets anyways
Especially since you’re going the highest dps build possible with shadow flame 2nd
wheat notch
no ur not
this champ does jack shit for burst
i cant even combo a kaisa unless shes levels down and im mega fed
durability patch and less over all ap is a fuck
also liandry doesnt necessarily always outperform luden in fights w ingenious hunter
Not that ingenious is necessarily correct but I've messed with it after I saw Swain players on it
eternal palm
Yeah I don’t see how you can even afford to go into the domination tree as Ziggs
wheat notch
Yeah I don’t see how you can even afford to go into the domination tree as Ziggs
Like this
Took Focus Scorch next game
I'm so mad that Cheap Shot blows dick on Ziggs
bc it doesn't work if they're hit by multiple mines (or even move while I toss the E and get hit by many)
and very sketch with W
dim kindle
how is first strike
sinful frost
In general?
dapper kite
I assume on ziggs
wheat notch
Replacing my keystone with 400g over like half an hour is pretty bad
some guy in the Ziggscord said Comet or First Strike are optimal but I think he's full of shit
eternal palm
comet is indeed optimal
first strike though? I'm not big on it on really any champion, even champs that like it
like Jayce likes first strike, but that's only because all his other runes got nerfed to oblivion
wheat notch
i would not play strike on jayce
i would also not play comet on ziggs lol
i would like my keystone to be relevant after my opponent gets shoes
*or work with my w
prisma ravine
First trike is good if you want burst damage or scale hard
eternal palm
well aeri is only half a rune on ziggs
prisma ravine
I cant imagine Ziggs fits either category
wheat notch
Ziggs... """scales"""
wheat notch
well aeri is only half a rune on ziggs
and it still consistently outdmges Comet
eternal palm
i would want to see damage numbers on that tbh, let me see if LS has some calculations real quick
wheat notch
I don't think I can check my Aery outputs on phone
I can get you a bunch of screencaps by Sunday
prisma ravine
Aery as a damage option is perfectly fine
Lots of midlaners used to use it
Its more reliable than comet and up more often
wheat notch
the only thing I'm sad with Aery is it's no longer ss broken as it used to be
I remember the days of old panth
on rune reveal
2 qs
over 25% of health gone lv1
from aery scorch cpot 👍
ah u took longsword refill nvm
2 qs
night marsh
old panth was aids
new panth was slightly aids but they nerfed him to be fine
now lillia is the queen of brain off kill top
eternal palm
well scorch is mathematically one of the worst runes in the game, that I can tell you 100%
wheat notch
well scorch is mathematically one of the worst runes in the game, that I can tel...
but damidge
sullen crystal
well aeri is only half a rune on ziggs
I am not a rune tyvm
sullen crystal
wheat notch
i would want to see damage numbers on that tbh, let me see if LS has some calcul...
u can't accurately calc this anyway bc you cannot accurately account for comet hitrate on this shitty ass champ
sometimes u satchel a guy and comet hits them
other times it does not even go near them
like the lowest percent hitrate ive noticed is 40 but ive probably gotten lower percents
dim kindle
old panth was pretty bad unless you got exactly level 3 dove with panth passive + jungler after he tossed 3 qs at you
then it was tough
i overall like first strike a fair bit on a lot of champs but aery is a strong safe option for mages
it does indeed usually outdps comet across a game
but comet can do more damage for specific all ins
its weird
overall depends what your goal with the lane is
on someone like syndra I really just love the inspiration tree so first strike is free
which also fits more with her current wait to scale playstyle
even when you take aery it doesnt feel like you can really bully lane
not compared to before at least
eternal palm
I didn’t find anything on comet vs aery, but this is a good video on scorch @wheat notch https://youtu.be/XOtq9EjOsyo
dim kindle
p sure this was before scorch buff
wheat notch
I know Cookies are worse than market
eternal palm
eternal palm
LS also thinks Rod of Ages is busted as all hell