R.I.P. Isabella

[spring pelican]

What specifically about multiplayer makes Isabella unviable from your perspective now? In single player the start is weaker but the objective is clearer to find more wonders and you scale better as you find more wonders. What part of that experience isn't translating into a multiplayer environment? (I'm asking because I don't know since I don't multiplayer and I hope the answer helps focus the feedback better)

That's fair. So if one were to try and sum up your feedback, would it be fair to say that:

"You feel that Isabella's tuning is inappropriate for multiplayer because it assumes natural wonders are easier to acquire then they actually are, because players are harder to fight and are more likely to settle and block you from natural wonders then AI are."

Does that sound about right? It feels appropriate for SP play tuning wise, but I can see how this would be a large difference for multiplayer.

If I've summed up your issue correctly, out of curiousity, can you think of a change that would improve Isabella's MP without majorly impacting SP and without changing the core concept of the new design being less early game and more scaling. For instance, maybe isabella should have some combat bonuses to attacking cities with natural wonders to improve her ability to seek them out by force.

[ornate estuary]

I think they also nerfed her initial gold from being near wonders? I think that needs to go back to 300

[spring pelican]

Reworks can also be net power level changes. Stuff can be two things.

I do think that the useful feedback here is about SP vs MP tuning. Civ is always going to be primarily tuned for SP, and I think isabella's changes are reasonable there. I can see how it wouldn't translate to MP. She definitely isn't meant to be as much of an early game snowball leader anymore though - which it's fair to like or dislike, but is not inherently a problem in need of fixing.

I think the density of natural wonders is also a bit low across most map sizes, and that changing would be an inherent isabella buff because you'd be more likely to be able to claim 2 or 3 without conflict.

I am curious how many natural wonders you are finding yourself getting in a typical MP game. How many can you get without needing to fight enemies, and how many can you get including fighting enemies. Is 2 the norm? 3? 1?

I think it would also be good to keep brainstorming what changes could impact MP without impacting SP much. Making isabella's start bias even stronger so it is a 100% guaranteed starting wonder would be good - it's like 70% currently, and in SP this doesn't matter because people will restart for a natural wonder start. But in MP, you can't just restart. It could also potentially be a bias specifically for 3 and 4 tile wonders, which is what isabella works better with

Well the point of the rework was to create a different identity that isn't snowball or mediocre, and instead has a longer term gameplan. And there's nothing wrong with preferring the snowball design, but I highly doubt they will revert back to a snowball style that they specifically reworked away from. So I would recommend giving feedback about how to improve the MP experience within the new broad concept she was designed for.

I personally strongly prefer the new design, but I completely get if you liked the old concept and don't like the new concept and are sad about that. And there's nothing wrong with giving that as feedback, I just wouldn't want to get your hopes up on that changing. And I think it's useful to separate the two distinct feedbacks of "I liked the old concept more then the new one" and "the new isabella is underpowered in multiplayer contexts because assumptions about wonder accessability it was tuned around don't hold true in MP". Those are two very different issues

That's completely fair. I really like wonder hunter, but there's nothing to say others are supposed to like it

[ebon chasm]

Isabella would also be buffed if they found a way to have naval units survive the first age transition, so there's that.

[ornate estuary]

I personally think she's in a great spot, she needed a rework

Single player vs multiplayer is a pretty big factor, Tubman is on the weaker side in single player but in multiplayer she's really strong. I still think Isabella is really strong even with 50%

[north ivy]

Hmm, with Civ6 multiplayer essentially relied on BBG and BBS/BBM to handle balancing the game for multiplayer. It seems like multiplayer balancing mods could do the same for Civ7?

[tame zephyr]

@dull idol Did you delete that post if so why

[tall fern]

Not sure, but it's a shame, the feedback was good.

[tame zephyr]

actually tubman is in a better spot in single player, because the ai might still declare war on you despite the negative 5 war support.
@tall fern , I think seven was just discouraged with all the people disagreeing with him. I still think some leaders like Isabella or Simon Bolivar could use a buff and the gold nerf on discovering wonders nerf might be overtuned, like on any speed you play 50-100 gp is not that much if it was at least 200gp that would be fine

[ornate estuary]

I'd disagree, I never struggle fighting the ai so the war support isn't incredible

[copper widget]

Well going to go ahead and close this now, since there's no feedback now😐