revert v23.4

[tall hull]

There has not been enough time for the update for there to be any definitive say on which meta would be better in the future. I was one of the testers for v23.3, and I tried to make it the best I could, but because of the backlash, it was discarded for the return of the old meta, that many of us are not adjusted to anymore.

Give us back the v23.3 meta.

Backn,
Leader of NOVA.

[storm moat]

Exactly.

[serene ingot]

revert ts bro

all them mfs played ONE game and didnt like it

[sage void]

because if you like it, your going to play it, and not bother, but if you dont like it, your going to stop playing and complain to the devs about it, 1 day is not enough time for people to enjoy it then give feedback

[tall hull]

revert v23.4

[winged wigeon]

https://tenor.com/view/payasoit-scary-clown-gif-17984708

[reef totem]

Not enough time to enjoy it, but enough to not enjoy. I'm not gonna keep playing something that brings me frustration instead of fun, hoping that after enough games I'll start liking it, right?

If you were buying pizza for half a year that tasted really good, and one day it tastes awful - you keep buying pizza there, hoping that you get used to the bad taste? No, you start ordering from a different place🤷

[sage void]

exactly, go play teritorial.io instead, because whats going on now is like another food chain you like just bought this one out and changed it, like your analogy makes no sense

[sage void]

you say to go somewhere else but yet you are trying to defend buying out the store and changing everything again, rather than just going to that other store instead

[reef totem]

The what?

[reef totem]

This is what happened when .23 dropped

And why It got so much negativity and backlash

[sage void]

no, everyone who didnt like it went and moaned to the devs while the people who did like it were actually playing and enjoying it, and 1 day is not enough time to have everyone experience it, i garentee atleast 25 % of players didnt get to even play because they was busy, and all the devs saw was negative stuff while everyone who liked it was busy playing

sent early

[sage void]

no, it was reverted because the feedback channel was flooded with people who didnt like it

[reef totem]

Why were there almost no positive comments?

[tall hull]

because it was too short of a time.

[reef totem]

Why more than 50% votes in the poll now say that .22 was better?

[reef totem]

But there were people who liked it, no?

[sage void]

like i said THEY WERE PLAYING THE GAME, i loved the update and i played for hours, but one day was not enough time for everyone to enjoy it and then go take a poll

[tall hull]

its been 3 days laskowik

[tall hull]

yea those did like it because they adjusted to it

im already adjusted to v23.3

[reef totem]

Dude, even I liked it for some time

And then another balance patch drops

[sage void]

balance patch? is that what we are calling it?

[reef totem]

It was really poorly handled, first of all

[reef totem]

23.1, 23.2, 23.3, 23.4, those were balance patches, yes

[sage void]

its like a complete reversion of the patch, 90% of the shit they added was removed, i wouldnt call that balancing

balancing is like changing the rate of which the workers regen, or something, not removing half the features

[reef totem]

Dude, get your shit together, were still talking about .23

That's literally what I meant

[sage void]

yeah, features were added in .23 then removed 24 hours later in .24, that not a balance, thats almost a complete ctrl + z

[reef totem]

Dude, what are you on?

I liked .23 at some point

Then couple hours later a balance patch drops

I start liking it again and another balance patch drops

I'm not talking about reverting to .22, man

[sage void]

idk at this point all these versions, i just want the version i had yesterday

im new to the game, just started like a week ago, and the patch for yesterday was way better

[reef totem]

So you don't even know that you're talking about, yet you're arguing with me

I understand that you might've liked it, but seems like most of the community didnt

[sage void]

im arguing your logic, you dont even know what your talking about, saying that when the menu changes you go somehwere else and yet thats the opposite of what the players did and yet your saying they went somewhere else

[sage void]

MOST OF THE COMMUNITY DIDNT GET A SAY

we were busy playing the game while others were whining to the devs

i played for like 6 hours and i got on late in the day, i was having fun, i was too busy to tell the devs i liked it

and many other people have been saying the same thing all day

[stable magnet]

@tall hull #📊︱polls message

more votes saying its good

[tall hull]

do i have to state the obvious again?

its been 3 days since the update dropped

[sage void]

wait, so what version was the one that was up last before they removed the defense buff and the workers regen faster?

[reef totem]

That was a metaphor, not a 1 to 1 depiction of what's happening 😅

[tall hull]

obviously people are not going to be adjusted to the new game and aren't going to like it because they aren't good at it

[reef totem]

I put the game to the side, as to wait for the balance patches to end

[stable magnet]

23.3, but my understanding was that was just a balance patch of 23's major changes

[sage void]

didnt they remove it for a couple hours and tweeked some of the settings before releasing it again? or so i think i heard

[sage void]

thats what i thought

[reef totem]

No, that was constant .23 until they revertrd

[sage void]

not according to xela here, if im reading the message right

ok, where is that supid github link i keep seeing

bruh, you know it wasnt out long when you cant google the patch notes for this update but you can for others

[stable magnet]

the poll asking whether to revert has not even closed

[sage void]

bruh, i just realized i didnt get pinged for it because i didnt have the role they pinged, tf

[reef totem]

Everything after .23 was balance patches up until reverting to .22

[reef totem]

Percentage for .22 is literally going up since morning. It was like 48% 3 hours ago

[night scarab]

I played quite a number of games and they just felt bad

The system makes sense to a certain degree but it’s too complicated for no reason and just feels bad to play

[sage void]

dont seem complicated to me, but then again all the games i play are complicated, war thunder, DCS, The Isle

[modern marlin]

tbh y'all kinda ruined the game with your whining. It was up for 48 hours. No other game would revert a change like that unless it was buggy within 48 hours.

Also you are acting maliciously and with bad intent. If you actually cared about what people think, I have explained countless times how polling people right after release on Discord is a horrible, biased idea.

[modern marlin]

it's not complicated. What is complicated about "attack speed goes up with larger attacks"???? How is that complicated to you?

[keen epoch]

Shit idea. Restore the changes!

[vital kernel]

I actually liked the V23 meta. It was a lot more dynamic and you could micro your country based on what is going on in the moment and not have to just stick to the script and enjoy getting rolled. It was also quite unique of a concept and there aren't any other real alternatives yet.

[night scarab]

I can’t tell if you’re ragebaiting ?

[soft needle]

I really think reverting the meta was a very kneejerk reaction and not necessary at all, I think the changes did a lot to give the game additional strategic depth. Although the game became much more punishing (because one missplay could be fatal much more than before I feel like) it did make me feel like I had a lot more agency in the game, now I'm back to just being steamrolled by big people and no one being punished when they send 60% of their troops into me so personally I'm having a lot less fun. You cannot say after less than a day on every version of the patch that people have had enough time to adjust and learn how to play. The good players and the people who play a lot are always going to be upset at changes because they were winning on the old strategy and now they need to adapt this is unavoidable. As game devs you should have more confidence in your game design and give changes time to breathe. if problems persist it will become clear over time, you cannot make decisions like this based just on innitial reception. If anything will kill my enjoyment of this game its if every time I open it it works completely different than last time. Much love to the devs and I wish them good luck!

And what I think is even worse in this whole situation is that playing on 22 meta after seeing 23 meta just makes it feel much much more terrible than if I had never seen or played 23

okay thats all

[tall hull]

hes not, hes the dude who designed v23

[halcyon dragon]

At first I disliked the update, but it only took me a few games to get it. In one round I stood my ground for quite some time against the crown until one of my allies started to help (which took them long enough). It was a nasty battle full of defence posts and nukes launching from all sides, it was so awesome. Now I want it back too. I don't want to get 1 or 2 clicked by a larger player without any problems. Allies felt like they mattered more and you see people actually teaming up on the crown more often. In 22 in about two thirds of all games you don't see anyone go against the crown and the crown just does as it pleases. The changes were good. Of course there were some balancing issues, but that couldve been worked on

[modern marlin]

I quit playing v22 after v23. cant stand it

[winged stag]

For my stance.

.Dev did a lot of good for testing out v23 and is a huge reason why we rolled it out as it was. All matches that were performed on .dev met criticisms but overall had positive reviews.

Release V23.0-4 is rather a case study on how we should beta test in the future, how we communicate updates to the player base, and what we need to do to iron out what could be major points of backlash on future releases.

V22 had major complaints of being too slow during engagements and too fast during the end-game, things that were drastically changed upon v23.

Devs try extremely hard to make their vision a reality, and when players shit on them for not making it to their liking, it doesn't exactly motivate the dev to make a better product.

Yes, there were rushes.

Yes, there were mistakes made during development, time felt crunched not only for the devs but the players too.

My suggestions are simple, for us to offer more time to the devs to get accurate feedback on their work, not rage but constructive and critical ideas that actually make a change worthwhile for the health of the game instead of fulfilling short-term emotions of a mob.

Add an actual play-test event encouraging players to test out the prototype updates before they are officially released.

Introduce other options for feedback instead of discord, hell, I want to make a separate forum for you guys to discuss the game on. Say on the wiki!

And finally, give players the option to play on v22 in the future, despite the v23 agenda. For example: Openfront.io/j/v22/(room code)

This will appease people who find these updates unplayable, and give them an opportunity to attach themselves to a specific release of the game, like SSB brawl or melee. We could host tournaments!

Anyways, that's all I have to say for this. I trust in the devs and their interpretation of the feedback, they have this and we have their backs!

[modern marlin]

If anyone wants to help us test!
https://discord.gg/dz3ebn6a89

[blissful night]

The problem was 23.0, 23.1 and 23.2, i think 23.3 was very OK but people kept in mind the 3 kindof not balanced patch before.
23.3 was OK imo but people still remembered the bad meta of before 23.3

[soft needle]

I think there was just not nearly enough time for a meta to settle

People just needed time to adjust the initial reception is not really a good benchmark for meta health

[tropic marsh]

Yes

[ionic pagoda]

BRING BACK 23.3! DEFENSE META FTW

[primal mica]

Exactly what I would have said. I don't like .23 meta but people shouldn't be stopped from playing it

[keen epoch]

These people are idiots! The changes were great and you ruined it. It wasn't even up for 2 days!

[keen epoch]

It was being balanced. You would have liked it soon

[primal mica]

With the solution {BITFU] proposed I can still play the balanced version. Maybe I'll like it more but I can still play a version I definitively like.

[keen epoch]

No. You get only v23. It's called progress.

[primal mica]

The simultaneous release of .22 and .23 is called parallel release. Do your research please.

[keen epoch]

Unacceptable. We need everyone playing my fav version. Revert 23.4!!

[primal mica]

That tells me I should just ignore you. Goodbye

[orchid tapir]

I think this is the best solution till it's well balanced
https://discord.com/channels/1284581928254701718/1379053917203071127

when it's well balanced, it can be released fully and development can continue from there on

[primal mica]

Agreed 💯

I disliked the meta change because it wasn't well balanced yet

[primal mica]

And I still wanted to play on a balanced version of the game

[soft needle]

how would you know if its balanced, you likely played less than a day

[orchid tapir]

having both versions up at once, wouldn't upset people who don't like it due to it not being perfectly balanced yet, while allowing public playtesting for better balancing and feedback

[soft needle]

I think we really shouldn't concede the idea that the new patch was somehow horribly unbalanced

I heard no solid arguments why it was

[orchid tapir]

best of both worlds imo

[soft needle]

I think people just had kneejerk reactions

how can you know if the meta is good

its been out less than a day

[orchid tapir]

brucben was still working on further balances, so it did need a bit more time

but it wasn't bad in v 23.3

[soft needle]

the old patch was no more balanced

like what was unbalanced tell me

[orchid tapir]

I preffered 23.3 to the revert

[soft needle]

to me the games played very different v22 to v23 but I did not see any unbalance

[orchid tapir]

some attack/defense stuff needed some tweeking still

[soft needle]

well its worse on v22

thats no reason for a split nor a revert

I refuse to concede that v23 was much less balanced

[orchid tapir]

I agree

but a lot of people do not

[soft needle]

a lot of people had less than 1 day to test

and they were sad because they had to learn new things

and maybe didnt understand it yet

[orchid tapir]

mhm

[soft needle]

splitting is just a softcore version of agreeing the revert was right

it wasnt

I don't mean to be like rude or anything thats why i stayed out of your main post on the idea of the split

but if you are here advocating it I will advocate against it

[orchid tapir]

well v 23 is not gonna come back now, that's why I propose the slit suggestion, cause they won't wanna keep going back and forth

[soft needle]

same, next time they release v23 or whatever the next iteration is it should stay

and then just change it over time

[orchid tapir]

it already reverted and it's gonna stay like that till v23 is ready or till we get the split queues

[soft needle]

I don't think not having v23 out to the public is gonna make it any better

there is no one playing it, how will you know whats wrong with it

so we agree there

[orchid tapir]

there's a playtesting discord, but public testing would be good, yeah

[soft needle]

but I don't think we should cater to the kneejerk reaction to the update

either push it and fix it, or dont release it

[orchid tapir]

it already happened and they won't go back ad forth on decisinons, so now we need to find another way forward

which is why I suggested the 2 queues to make testing easier

[soft needle]

yeah but I don't think the split is it because of this

also you'd split the playerbase right

I think its worse

anyway thats all I wanted to say, no hard feelings for dissagreeing with eachother <3

[orchid tapir]

it would just be a voluntary open beta

a in-dev version so to speak

[primal mica]

I've thought of a very good analogy that only works if you watch this one particular TV show I sometimes do

[soft needle]

I don't think the relatively small playerbase should be split

you get less input that way too

[orchid tapir]

well now it's either almost none or that

plus there were buggy releases in the past, more people on the .dev version would be helpful regardless

[soft needle]

okay but mate I'm gonna be very honest an analogy will not convince me as much as concrete arguments for why v23 was so unbalanced it needed to be reverted to the just as if not more flawed v22

not talking to you here ^delulu sorry

[primal mica]

Ok, just wanted to throw this out there

Was expecting it to fall on deaf ears anyways

[orchid tapir]

mhm

[soft needle]

more people on .dev would be good I think my issue is a framing/messaging thing

[orchid tapir]

wdym?

[soft needle]

let me try to frase this right give me a second

I think v23 should be the main branche already now, that that is the right decision. So splitting for 2 servers feels like giving ground to the idea that v22 was somehow better when I really think it wasnt

I dont think the problem with v23 was too little testing

I dont even know if there were that many problems with v23

so if we advocate for a split it feels like a compromise that doesn't need to be or shouldnt be made

does that make sense?

[orchid tapir]

maybe side by side people would realise that
also v23 did release too early, it only became more balanced in 23.3
2 queues would help avoid this in the past, by properly testing the versions publicly

[soft needle]

I don't think we have a good grasp of how balanced it was none of the patches were out for more than 24 hours

[brazen raven]

instead of the poll being on discord, it should have been on the site

[soft needle]

I am yet to hear what was so unbalanced about it

[orchid tapir]

it was just impossible to know that the balance was off in 23.0 due to small player count lobbies

[brazen raven]

and ppl could only vote after 5 or 10 games

[soft needle]

no you just shouldnt run a poll on day 1 of a release

[brazen raven]

EXACTLY

[soft needle]

yeah maybe 23.0 was off idk hard to tell, but that means it needs fixing not reverting

[brazen raven]

but at the VERY least you should have had it on the website that ppl play the game

[orchid tapir]

I helped playtest all the versions and what felt good in 10ish players wasn't so great in larger lobbies

however we felt pretty good about 23.3

and it played well even in public lobbies imo

[soft needle]

I agree

[lofty flume]

I think having some kind of link to "Play the dev version here!" on the main page is at least a good idea. Direct people to the dev version to get more feedback on it, even if it's just a link.

[soft needle]

If there were serious issues they would pop up over time and they can be patched but now we wont ever really know

[orchid tapir]

well the way I phrased it in my mockup was to show that that version is coming regardless, but iboth are there to help testing, while you can still enjoy the release version

so it's not meant as a compromise

[soft needle]

I understand where you're coming from

[lofty flume]

I mean they're organizing test games and the dev version is there still, so it is still getting tested. I think the idea of having both is to make it get more tested and introduce people to the changes with some warning so it isn't surprising

[soft needle]

its a young game people should expect it to change a lot

its the nature of developing titles no?

[orchid tapir]

yep

[orchid tapir]

yep, also even if we test it in custom lobbies, it will never be 100 people

[soft needle]

but yeah i think the devs probably got a little overwhelmed trying to manage player reactions which must have been very difficult to deal with especially for a small team

but I do seriously think the revert was the wrong call to make

[orchid tapir]

I agree and so does brucben

[primal mica]

Oh wait, the split already happened

So then we don't need to do anything, just have a button to redirect to .dev

[soft needle]

thats the idea I'm pretty sure

[orchid tapir]

yep, that's the idea I'm proposing, the second queue would take you to a .dev game

[soft needle]

I just think there is nothing justifying keeping v23 in beta, it was perfectly fine as a basis to go off of

day one reactions are always going to be overblown and misguided

I think it takes most competitive games at least 3 days before the meta settles unless there are serious balance issues

I don't mind hotfixes like what happened after v23.0 but changes really need time to breathe

[orchid tapir]

i do agree with ya

tell that to the people who decided to do the revert

[soft needle]

I've been trying!

well screaming into the void mostly and hoping someone reads it

[orchid tapir]

idk who it was, probably evan? but idk

[soft needle]

I mean I'm not about to go and DM people I hope devs read the threads and feedback channels

[orchid tapir]

yeah obv :p

I think this poll shows it shouldn't have been reverted #📊︱polls message

it's basically 50/50 even with just 48hrs of v23

[soft needle]

yeah

[orchid tapir]

and 23.3 was out only a few hours

[soft needle]

but I'm just sceptical of day 1 reactions in general

most players probably only got like 4-8 hrs of play in realistically

[orchid tapir]

I did 1 game outside of the "private" test games on 23.3

[soft needle]

I did a few I did very much enjoy them once I understood the patch

in fact I did a whole write up about everything I enjoyed you can see it here: https://discord.com/channels/1284581928254701718/1379099999752818798 !

sorry shameless promotion

my first few games were super rough though because the patch is a lot more punishing

[lofty flume]

I think this poll isn't a full picture either. People that liked the updated wouldn't have been upset about it and taken the effort to go to the discord and find the poll saying to keep it (like me, hi). And then they open up the game and see the new update is back in the other direction and they're confused but assume that's just the direction now (and they don't now for sure whether the changes are all reverted, like citizens increasing pop growth). So the poll probably undercounted how many people liked the changes

[soft needle]

great point actually yes

[orchid tapir]

"I think this poll isn't a full picture either." no ofc not, I agree

[soft needle]

plus how many countless of casual players just never join the discord to begin with

I'm half tempted to write up a thread on why the day 1 poll was not a valid measurement of meta quality but I doubt more screaming into the void is going to actually result in anything

[primal mica]

(If the following text is gibberish to you, feel free to ignore)

[soft needle]

also sorry for being mean to you earlier zelda please feel free to post

[primal mica]

I think that the split between .23 and .22 is like BFDIA and TPOT

in which BFDIA was on hiatus for 10? years

And TPOT was the new one

And what happened was parallel development continued

Now obviously a TV show ≠ this game

But it was something at the back of my head

(End of what you might see as nonsense)

[primal mica]

I forgive you

[keen epoch]

Pls submit it to the devs

[fickle crest]

no

[soft needle]

I'm just bumping this for no reason

[keen epoch]

Bring back 23.3n

[reef totem]

So imagine being a casual player that doesn't visit the discord. You play the game for a day, week, or month and one day, out of the blue and with no real explanation, you come upon .23, which completely changed the game and nothing that worked before works anymore. You start a game and get destroyed, start another and get destroyed again. And that keeps happening. You don't know what's happening and what to change, cause again - you don't use discord and don't have access to that pdf file brucben was sharing. So you just stop playing. And I wouldn't be surprised if the revert was caused by a sudden player base drop due to that issue. Evan mentioned 80k players per day. There ale 20k people here, with only a percentage visiting daily. So I wonder, how many casuals might've dropped the game due to that sudden meta change.

[stiff echo]

It’s a logical statement and I fully agree with you the game combat system is just fine and engaging in someway so why the hell should we change it.

[reef totem]

I'm not saying that the current system doesn't have flaws. What I mean is that the change was too drastic and should've been handled differently

[buoyant heath]

so are we just making this post for every update or what

[modern marlin]

I agree. The communication wasn't good.

At the same time I'm sure we've lost people due to how confusing the current v22 setup is. I personally didn't play openfront for months because the attacks made no sense

[modern marlin]

Its getting kinda funny 😂

[wet dock]

I hope they will not do same mistakes as other project (the culling for exemple, first standalone BR game) which over listen to feedback and destroy the game. What we saw here is kinda scary. They really need to work on that because you can't change the game feeling 4 times in one week because everyone scream. Let people try it for a longer time and patch little by little.

Also they need to identify the good players of the game and listen to their feedback before the casuals. That's what Valorant is doing for exemple : Pro scene is the feedback, they change little things each update so it takes a bit more time to have final result but at the end, both sides (pro and casual) are happy.

From what i heard most of the good players liked the 23.4, it still had flaws but it was a lot better and they decided to revert everything because of pressure

[reef totem]

Most of the top players were actually against it

[tropic marsh]

I just want a way to play v23 as a test or something

[outer oxide]

From what i heard most of players liked the 23.4

I ended up kinda liking it, but wished :

1. the early game to be less punishing (a single overextension and the aggressive bot nation would have killed you, no way to recover). Sure you get used to it, but I don't think its a good experience for newbie.
2. trading with port be buffed. It was overnerfed, with 3 v23 ports = 2 v22 ports.

It resulted in interesting mid game, but bad late game. And the dominating strategy was to be a giant continental superpower, whereas before you at least had the option to be a marine superpower.

[tropic marsh]

I mostly want the attacking troops to count towards the population limit

[modern marlin]

For those who enjoyed the new meta changes... #📊︱polls message

I of course voted yes

[soft needle]

the biggest issue was probably just the stuff they did with troop to worker ratio and how fast workers respawned

I think v22 is terrible the other way around where you ratio is constantly high and if you dont get enough money for your first city youre fked

but I can see how having people have their ratio this low leads to a different kind of snowballing

I seriously loved everything else about the update, including how punishing the early game was

yes one mistake will cost you dearly, but in the current meta zero mistake will also cost you because a slightly bigger guy can just click you with no downside

[modern marlin]

If anyone wants to test v23 in its current form (along with an optional new building) try hospital.openfront.dev

[stiff echo]

There is such thing called defense post or you can counter his attack by small attack percentages and tank the rest of his attack that way he will lose more troops than you do ,so no a slightly bigger guy cannot just click on you with no downside because as I explained you defend against it or if his significantly bigger than u try adding defense posts and keep your troops high while tanking his attacks that way you have more defending troops when his is attacking you,other than that I’d say u are either new at the game or basically suck.

[soft needle]

I should really start blocking people who have nothing more to contribute than ME GOOD U BAD