Replace forest labyrinth with a normal forest

[misty verge]

This mapless-maze gimmick would be better used in a late-game area. Running around maze as a new user trying to get a feel for the game is not fun.

[tight aurora]

Second this. Was part of a stream where the streamer wanted to show off the game to people who were new to MMOs especially one without any guide / questing but we had struggled keeping the group together (also partly due to limitations of minimap UX).

[marsh haven]

Maze placement is gonna change (not sure about the maps themselves) can see the upcoming map changes here #👀sneak-peeks message

[tight aurora]

Looking at the new map, forest labyrinth is still particularly near a new player zone.. I would understand the want / necessity of giving a nod to old RO however you didn't need to interact with the hidden labyrinth unless you were looking for a boss to hunt. It didn't have items that you would need to progress like in spirit vale, so you wouldn't need to experience how bad it was as a new player. Here you're forced to go through it.

[marsh haven]

Current Forest Lab- Necessary to get to Mystic Lake and Fairy Glen.
Future map- Ways to get to Mystic Lake and Fairy Glen without going through Labyrinth

so in the future its completely optional.

[tight aurora]

how about monster levels and armour sets?

[marsh haven]

I dont have information on drops

[tight aurora]

the jump from level 20 - 30 / 15 - 30 on the maps with a straight shot to Fairy Glen and Mystic Lake would probably need a smoother transition

[twilit smelt]

you can click on the link Neoian sent and see the map there

you're not forced to go through the maze and you have about 6 other maps in the same level range to lvl up on

[tight aurora]

I did see the map and saw the level differences were 10 levels compared to going through forest labyrinth

in any case, if exp from lvl 20 mobs vs. lvl 25 mobs is not that big then its probably fine

[twilit smelt]

From sunny meadows 1 to treant trail its 10 lvls
from sunny meadows 1 to 2 it's 5
from sunny meadows 2 to forest labyrinth it's 10 lvls
from sunny meadows 2 to bunny woods its 10 lvls
from sunny meadows 2 to lake field 1 it's 10 lvls
from sunny meadows 1 to forest field 1 it's 5, then to 2, 5 then to festering woods 5.
from sunny meadows 2 to festering woods 1 it's 10 lvls

you have a lot of options, all of which don't go through the maze

[tight aurora]

i'm looking at it from the experience the new players had when we played together, do you think they would go 10 levels higher having minimal equipment and skill use vs. 5 levels? or stay in one place, grind then get bored?

[twilit smelt]

so your suggestion is that we have maps every 5 lvls instead of every 10?

[tight aurora]

no

[tight aurora]

this sums it up

[twilit smelt]

but I already explained why it's not needed to go through the maze in the new map

and you're saying 10 levels it too big of a gap compared to 5

[marsh haven]

even late game players have problems navigating the map lol. So i dont think making it high level solves anything. The solution to the labyrinth problem is the new map layout

[tight aurora]

i'll try to explain it as best I can, as a new player, let's say we have a new player new to MMOs that just wants to play and experience the game because the graphics are cute.. you see a map, you're level 10, do you go to a level 20 area or a level 15? when you get to level 20, do you go to a level 30 area or a level 25?

[tight aurora]

late game players are already hooked to the game though

even if they get confused that's part of the exp for them but for new players, confusion == bad game

[marsh haven]

part of the game is exploring, the map is purposely not completely linear

[twilit smelt]

That depends on a lot of things, but from lvl 20 to 30 it's a very very fast process, if they try to get a specific item on lvl20, they'll get to 25+ before they get the item

[tight aurora]

i'm just sharing my experience and sharing what happened and maybe how to improve it

[marsh haven]

and we're telling you how its being improved

[twilit smelt]

say they heard from a youtuber that Treant Tree Evergreen is a good card (on a lvl15 zone). They'll get to 28 before they get the basic set and that card most likely

[tight aurora]

and i'm also stating the planned improvement could be reconsidered

unless its set in stone

[twilit smelt]

I wouldn't say it's set in stone, but I don't think we need to shelter the player from the maze like that

if they enter and get confused, they have about 6 other maps they can go to

and it's not even 40 minutes, if they get bored farming the same map for less than 40 minutes... then this game will lose them in another moment anyways

[marsh haven]

and things take time to implement, aside from creating the maps, you have to plan layouts, transitions, mobs, drops, etc.

[twilit smelt]

I'm not talking about that because I think regardless, it's not a bad layout

I liked going through maze on my first run

[tight aurora]

again, if you think it's fine then it's fine, hopefully it will be fine once the planned layout comes

[marsh haven]

we just have to wait and see, the testers will give feedback to Phil once its actually implemented

[twilit smelt]

well, it's not me (or Neoian) that makes those decisions. Phil will eventually read this and have his own opinion on the matter

[tight aurora]

i didn't mind the maze myself, I just had the awful experience of guiding people who just wanted to have fun but was confused out of their minds

[twilit smelt]

yeah, that is solved on the new layout

we don't have specifically a 25 lvl map (which is probably very easy to implement if that's an actual problem, just adjust mob level)

but we won't have to necessarily cross the maze

[tight aurora]

people will get drawn to the maze because of level progression, it's the only place where mobs at lvl 25 are shown in the map

but we're going around in circles, i've explained best I can and can only hope new map will work out

[granite arrow]

at first, I went into the maze for a little while, then decided to head east instead, after that i didn't come back to the labyrinth for some time until nearly endgame, just to buy stuff from wayfarer's. then i started getting used to going through the labyrinth after making a couple of characters.

the labyrinth is not bad, just need to go to it if you feel like it. don't have to if you don't want to.

i've had some characters completely skip the labyrinth and level to 150 without ever stepping into the labryinth.

i'm one of the players who didn't like it at first too.

[tight aurora]

this is subjective, are you new to MMOs / arpgs in general? seeing as you're also part of POE i'm guessin you're used to the grind

[granite arrow]

nah i've been playing them on pc for like 20 years and some years in mobile games.

a lot of ragnarok, yes i do play path of exile 1 and 2, but i prefer ragnarok style games.

i just got the hang of doing things just by playing passively and figuring it out slowly.

[tight aurora]

not to be rude but your experience with the labyrinth isn't what the concern is.. it's for new players

[granite arrow]

i'm already on my 15th character on spiritvale from just playing.

i'll just say skip it entirely. do something else.

you don't have to go in the labyrinth.

i chose to avoid it entirely and it's not bad going through the labyrinth at all. i've lapped it like 100 times by now.

[granite arrow]

i did what was fun instead and went back the labyrinth when i felt like it.

that was my first character experience.

https://tenor.com/view/okay-i'll-do-it-but-i-won't-like-it-courage-courage-the-cowardly-dog-fine-i-will-do-it-but-i-won't-enjoy-it-sure-i'll-do-it-but-i'll-hate-it-gif-2486888546162178580

this was pretty much me going through it.

then i figured it out from sheer laziness.

[wintry tulip]

I just saw new map. labyrinth looks great. it will probably become spot for level 20-35 grinding to avoid the crowds, since most people hate go through mazes.

[misty verge]

it's literally already overcrowded, and by level 20 you won't be in that area anymore unless you don't understand the game, tbh

Right now it looks unfinished and breaks immersion in the world, and it's not clear it's supposed to even be a maze since the rooms in the maze are functionally identical to all the other maps. It just seems like "oh they didn't get around to finishing this area yet"

[wintry tulip]

sry i mean this new upcoming map change (#👀sneak-peeks message)

[granite arrow]

It's quite the opposite for me with the immersion. I played it way back before it even became the labyrinth it is today and it's way better than it was before. I didn't like it at first, but eventually started to warm up to it and got used to it after giving it time to understand it. I started to see it as okay after realizing all the things it has to explore and what it has to offer made my experience for it better. I had a strong appreciation for the labyrinth being more immersive and fun as I gave it a chance enjoyed the best parts of it, which was experiencing the monsters, items, and skills I obtained as a player, while being there. I was there when the labyrinth was even worse than it is now. I was able to do things in the labyrinth that was fun, and that outweighed the negative experiences I had initially had for it.

I went with all classes through the labyrinth and some of them several times after finally deciding to give it a shot, then got used to the layout and eventually stopped hating it for what it was and got through it feeling good as other people did and with others in a party, going through it several times. I was in multiple partied farming certain things with other people and got through it with them. There were many options accessible to use in the labyrinth to go through and going through the low level areas of the labyrinth to the high level areas made it immersive to grow my character as I proceeded with friends. I had a good experience when it was at its worst and an even better experience at its current state. I used every tool accessible and had goals to overcome the labyrinth, which some players often have as a way to keep them going while grinding things they need to progress to the next high level zones.