#Restrict spear dual wielding

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

faint vine
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In order to diminish royal fang prevalence and also make more weaver builds more (seriously) viable, I thought of this:

1 - Make it so that spears cannot be used while dual wielding (and add this feature to dragon knight later plz thx)

2 - Buff weaver survivability in some way - energy shield (most possible to be broken), higher hp pool, sacred aegis or w/e

I believe this to be a better solution than just straight up nerfing royal fang, as it wouldn't affect knights/paladins along the way and would open up all other possible weapon choices for both physical and magic dual wielding

worldly vapor
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If we don't allow offhand with spear, then do we disable it for book/mace/staff aswell?

compact rapids
robust nymph
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I'm ok with removing the spear dual wielding, it is a good idea... now I'm not with: giving it more hp or giving aegis... I want energy shield sunnalel
Let weaver be a second option for tanking in a different way from having big hp pool sunnalel
the Idea of stacking mana and mana regen for tanking sounds kinda cool PE_PeepoCheer

but for sure if you remove dual and add energy shield on weaver everyone will try to make the use of both to make a a 2nd paladin that kills everything but doesnt die to anything

I think it can be solved with removing so many stats scaling of impale... it will buff knight/paladin aa impale(cuz they will need less stas) but it will nerf a bit weaver dmg since they can get so much stats for free...
instead of scaling with 2% vit, 1% dex, 1% str and 1% agi
put it only 2% vit and 2% str?

Impale base dmg could be increased to 50% per level instead of 40% if ppl think that the aa build got nerfed too hard
or just make them look more like warrior skills?

Give a level 10 to impale and make it scale with 50% or 100% and give a smaller stats scaling, the 3%... that would probably buff trident from night garden and make royal fang a bit less interesting?

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I also agree that you could make a skill that unlocks it if you plan on makin a theme for a class that dual wield spear with other weapons

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and my ideas might be bad but just trying to give more options for a solution

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my english fails me sunnalel

faint vine
# worldly vapor If we don't allow offhand with spear, then do we disable it for book/mace/staff ...

I undestand the argument. Balancing a problematic weapon around an exception to the game's general rules does seem weird.
But it does make sense logically, imo. A spear should be a harder weapon to effectively dual wield than a mace or a book, and I think it would require more specialized training in order to master it as well.
And on the plus side, it's future proofing that any new knight toys won't need to be balanced around dwing.
I know it's a hard choice, I just thought this would be a valid path to follow and a good thing for the game overall, as paladin will probably need more tweaking if royal fang changes for them

compact rapids
robust nymph
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cuz warrior has free crit and free crit damage

compact rapids
lucid creek
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It's literally only the same knight and pally mains stressing and pushing to kill the weapon in a way that it doesn't affect their class.

If we're talking about prevalence here, just turn down the notch on said weapon, lessen the proc chance or get rid of combo finisher to have it align with the other options available. That will make people explore other builds just as fine. Don't kill an entire weapon line for other jobs completely.

It also doesn't really make sense to kill an option for the sake of prevalence at this early stage the game is in especially when there are such few other options.

lapis widget
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Some of the coolest interactions with DWing currently are Mace + off hand, as mace implicit stats and a lot of what maces do are unique. So if maces cant have an off hand this nerfs a crapload of weaver builds that rely on main hand hammer to work.

Do we really need to nerf crystal slammer weaver builds in a system wide nuke just so royal fang goes away? like no shot

There is also hammer + dagger duration stacking for poison.

compact rapids
# lucid creek It's literally only the same knight and pally mains stressing and pushing to kil...

I mean, it was supposed to be a weapon for knights in mind. Removing the ability to double wield it doesnt affect summoners, only rogue, warriors and weaver.

I wouldnt mind it getting less procs or nerfing the damage entirely if knights/paladins have other better options for AA builds but there simply isnt no other option.

And you are right, the game is still in the early stage so why are you saying like those other classes that benefit from royal fang the most wont get a new weapon in the future? Maces were already forced to not be used in the off hand because of dual crystal hammer.

One last thing, have you tried AA knight/paladin, summoner, weaver and warrior? If you do, then you should know that royal fang isnt really a problem for knights and paladins because of 1 simple thing. They dont have an easy access to crit like the others. Knights/Paladins incorporating crit into their builds will cripple something heavily into their builds. Whether its their tankiness, atk, atkspd or hp.

compact rapids
lapis widget
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We know something about RF has to change, but it has to not come at hurting builds that dont even use it. I can understand that paladins/knights dont want it nerfed. But imagine he makes it so all main hand only weapons cant have off hands, a ton of random builds got nerfed because of Royal fang, ill become a paladin hater like the rest tbh.

my 600kdp10 slammer build does not need to have all its off hand utility options deleted thanks

faint vine
# lucid creek It's literally only the same knight and pally mains stressing and pushing to kil...

Yes, of course I want paladin to not be affected. Impale is the only option for melee physical paladin atm, and paladin is already in a not so great spot imo.

I understand the argument about choice limiting, but a price has to be paid. Do we wanna balance this and all future weapons designed for knights and its adv classes around other classes that don't even have such a close relation to spears in their kit, just because they can dw?
If a paladin starts using a shuriken build to great effect, do we nerf shuriken or do we make it so it can't be used as effectively by a paladin as it would be by the class that has greater affinity with it?

broken parcel
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Spear and shield should be doable it's double spear what seems broken imo.

torn iron
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Reworking rules design to combat a meta problem will never be a good solution.

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I’ve said this multiple times: physical autocast will always gravitate toward Royal Fang (Impale) because of splash. You can argue 4-stat scaling or combo finisher, but as long as it’s the only skill in that category with splash, nothing is realistically competing with it.

lucid creek
# faint vine Yes, of course I want paladin to not be affected. Impale is the only option for ...

Paladin is in a not-so-great spot? It's the only class that can solo facetank bosses and clear faster than other jobs who have to dodge every single attack just to have a chance to clear. And if you're arguing class designs, I'm sure Phil didn't design Paladins to be that way, hence why he's been trying so hard to not make it so these last couple patches.

The affinity thing you're trying so hard to push is such a laughable reasoning filled with personal preference. Might as well make daggers and swords be the only weapons able to be dual wield since those are the 2 weapon types dual wield has an "affinity" to.

This Royal Fang issue is as easy as nerfing the weapon, not changing and bending the game design. It's not even the top dps for shinobis and not even the meta for warriors.

faint vine
# torn iron Reworking rules design to combat a meta problem will never be a good solution.

I agree with this sentence as a general guideline, not a set in stone rule. Everything should be looked at and rationalized case by case.
And it's not like nerfing RF won't bring other consequences. One of the proposed solutions was to nerf RF and decrease all monster hp, so other builds would catch up to RF indirectly.
I would argue this has even bigger implications on game mechanics. Do we then nerf priest, who is already in a good spot and doesn't have anything to do with spears?

faint vine
# lucid creek Paladin is in a not-so-great spot? It's the only class that can solo facetank bo...

What seems to be a little too personal is your tone. If you could address the arguments I'm making and not try to formulate conclusions about me as a person, I think that'd be more productive.

I imagine you haven't been playing paladin lately. AA impale is a offense oriented build that, while tanky for most class' standards, is not that tanky for a paladin, as it requires huge invesment in attack speed and sustain - and without the easy access to crit that some other classes have.
Other paladin builds do require kiting as well for high level bosses. There is no facetanking unless you forego a great amount of damage that's simply not worth.
But comparing it to the other adv classes:
Priest: is in a better spot right now I'd say for sure, at least the bonk build, which can also solo bosses and even facetank some of them like SQ;
Wizard: all I read from wizards is that they want buffs, so I'll concede that they're weaker;
Weaver: weaver cannot do bosses as efficiently with its current survivability issues. You have to dodge pretty much every meaningful skill, but damage is great;
Shinobi: I honestly don't know that much about it, but I think it should be able to solo bosses. I actually seen a rogue (not shinobi) solo warchief quite fast and seemingly without much movement.

And to be clear, I'm barely playing my paladin atm, what I am most interested in playing is weaver actually, and mine runs royal fang, so...

compact rapids
robust nymph
lapis widget
torn iron
faint vine
lapis widget
# faint vine Ton of builds = jb and caster, for no one (but Sakaiyo) play ST anymore

Yeah well unfortunately that was a bit of a stinky that can be improved by simply buffing ST scaling. ST was sorta a victom of system changes. Which is ideally what we want to avoid here. We dont want a ton of DW builds that are not op, to eat shit because of RF, and we also can try and avoid knight/paladin getting nerfed. But at some point something has to give and ideally it isnt some weird "well when the moon is full on a sunday in paris your RF does 30% less damage"

robust nymph
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nerf the wepon for the classes that are usin that is not knight
and how we do that? we see why the other classes are exceeding with a weapon that was firstly designed for knight
weaver: tons of stats from buffs and passive, dual wielding
warrior: tons of crit and, Dual wielding
summoner: (was)tons of stats on summon... (even tho it got nerfed it still lookin pretty good... right?)

I am seeing a pattern here: dual wielding and tons of free stats for a skill that uses a lot of stats to scale....
reduce the amount of stats to 1 or 2 but same %
it will nerf the dmg for any classes that can get a lot of all stats
and remove dual wielding with spears
problem solved

lapis widget
faint vine
lapis widget
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Weaver is literally carried by physical auto cast right now, the magic auto cast, and pure casters literally do peanuts compared to RF, nerfing weavers stats to control RF is going to just make all the non meta builds weak as shit, and RF is barely gonna care

robust nymph
primal haven
robust nymph
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im talkin about impale dmg

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it scales from a lot of stats

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str

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agi

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vit

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dex

lapis widget
robust nymph
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weaver can get 100 of those pretty easy

lapis widget
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hence why we are here

robust nymph
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just remove the stats from impale

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it will reduce some of the weaver dmg

lapis widget
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it will also reduce the paladins damage, which they dont want lol

robust nymph
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instead of 2%vit, 1% dex, 1% agi and 1%str

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put everything on vit or str or both

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5% vit
3%vit, 2%str

faint vine
lapis widget
robust nymph
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it will reduce some of summoner dmg too

primal haven
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Being honest here, it's weaver's kit that allows huge pp damage with all the stats, and buffs it gets and damage increases from air cutter and taunt (but obviously can't nerf those). Unless air cutter or taunt gets replaced for other skills, nerfing the weapon would do. It's the easiest way to go about it and doesn't change any design or whatsoever the other people were talking about.

faint vine
lapis widget
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which were misguided, summoner got "fixed" but now if RF gets nerf, it has to be "fixed" back to being viable

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what should have happened instead was a nerf to RF rofl

compact rapids
faint vine
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Anyway, the idea behind the suggestion was just to give Phil another option to go about the issue. I'm no dev, I just thought it sounded good. I believe I said everything I had to say.
I know something will be done and I trust Phil's work, so leaving this alone

robust nymph
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it keeps stuttering even if u have 193 aspd

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at least when dual wielding

torn iron
primal haven
# lapis widget what should have happened instead was a nerf to RF rofl

Yeah, I always thought the nerf to royal fang was coming in this latest patch, but instead it was summoners who got nerfed.

It was made clear when the problem persisted when summoners job changed to weavers and still used RF. It's how I personally thought of using RF in the first place; it was the weapon handily ready when I switched to weaver. But as I was testing it I realized it's pretty much the same. Wolf innate stats = Weaver stats with buffs and offhand stat stick.

torn iron
formal zenith
robust nymph
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My paladin doesnt use either

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im trying to force a GC with sacrifice

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but sacrifice even with full holy resist looks bad yet for me

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waiting to see if something changes

compact rapids
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If weavers and warriors can do that using golden axe, good for them though

compact rapids
primal haven
# compact rapids Because it was never a real problem in the hands of knights/paladin in its curre...

Personally, I think that's just because Pally's are not meant to reach huge dps. They're the tank class for a reason.

But also, autocast items should be seen as gear designed for everyone, not something that is "designed for a specific class". I mean why even use an item autocasting a skill your class already has. The fact that it allows a skill to be used by another class is the point of such gear. It opens up doors to new builds. It shouldn't be compared to the class with the original skill.

grim ibex
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I put forth the idea of all normal weapons being MH, and dual wielding enables OH stat sticks basically. Weapons that just give various bonuses to your MH choice. I personally feel like this would be much easier to balance.

Phil likes the idea of dual wielding everything, but we keep locking weapons to MH anyways. May as well go all in imo.

robust nymph
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want to be fair? lets be fair

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give itens that gives wizzard energy shield and warrior's whirlwind then
I wanna make a spin build with my paladin

prisma mist
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buff bash and let any weapon be mh/oh 😎

compact rapids
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And again, I'm pretty sure that when Phil made the weapon, it was meant for knights in mind in the first place

robust nymph
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is royal fang impale leve 1? 2? 3? its funny how impale from RF does more dmg with other classes than a level 5 impale does with knight PE_Tiredge

formal zenith
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2 i think

compact rapids
lapis widget
faint vine
primal haven
lucid creek
grim ibex
lapis widget
grim ibex
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Basically, if you wanted to be a fire release shinobi, you would have the kunai MH, and the offhand 'main-gauche of blazing' +50% fire dmg in offhand.
Something like that.

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Its just an idea I put forth, because balancing everything for dual wielding while making it not suck alone seems to be pretty difficult

faint vine
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It's another viable idea it seems. Could that tag then be added to currently existing weapons? Because that's the perfect description for azure flow, violet arc and solar pulse

grim ibex
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those are definitely MH weapons, the 2 that give elemental enchants would be examples of OHs

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basically just things to buff MH or build, but dont do anything else like autocast

primal haven
grim ibex
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these are some quick examples i made to get the idea across

image.png
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and main gauche cause they are traditional OH daggers lol