PK System

[fleet hamlet]

Linage 2 has something similar. You kill player and character gets "karma." Your name is red and you have to kill enought mobs, to "clean" your name and ditch karma. During karma, if someone kills you, you can drop gear as well. Depending how many PKs player has is amount of karma. 2 PK on character is low karma and you just kill a few mobs and "clean" your name. But if you have 30-40 kills on character already, pffff, that is lot of karma a probably your whole gear will drop if killed. There is also Q, which lower your PKs.

[vagrant lava]

I don't think it's a total bad idea, I don't mind open world pvp and actually enjoy that, but the current maps are way too small imo to make that not annoying depending on the class you play, some classes are meant to be more on the support side/tank/healer/whatever role that does not deal 25k damage per ability, and while grouping to take down some pk player is a thing, the fact that high levels are wandering in level 50 and under zones to farm cards or stuff, that'd be a mess and you don't really have the option right now to just "change map and go level/farm elsewhere" depending on what you play. (I'm assuming this is meant to be for a way later implementation, because if not that'd be weird, since we have adv classes releasing one by one and not all at once, that'd be even worse, most likely)

[visual glen]

with the skull system, you gonna have limited quantity of kills to use, to avoid the red skull and the high risck of lose all your all itens. this rule, will make people think twice before killing randomly or newbie players.

[vagrant lava]

Fair enough, any idea on what to do to stop people from using bad gear on high levels to camp low levels then? basic "good" gear isn't hard to get by, and I'd like to believe the community would not be the type to be high level ganking low players but uh.. :p

I mean there's the recall crystal in the inventory, but I can imagine that it'd require to pay full attention to what's going on, and considering some classes are pretty squishy at earlier (and even later) levels, you can't just fight mobs and get ready to open the inventory to warp back and avoid dying. (Not that there's anything you lose by dying, I get that, but that does not mean that doesn't make it any less annoying :<)

But assuming the maps are largers or there are pvp modifiers in the open world and not just in the arena, I guess I wouldn't really mind

[merry stone]

If there's gonna be PK, I'd rather it be in a map with rare resources that open on weekends (limited time) like upgrade materials.

[buoyant halo]

I actually had a good idea for PK maps and it’s to what the developer said about hard mode maps

Maybe an unpopular opinion but I feel as though nightmare mode maps should be end game and should have PK(or open player killing) for high octane moments. Like nightmare mode doubles drop rates and maybe drops rare items for people to gain like materials to make +whatever equipment, maybe some accessories that can change someone build or make it a tad bit stronger(not too much because that could make the playing ground uneven) or whatever but have it as an open PvP map like OSRS wilderness maps where the risk/reward is high. It could be a good balance for PVE players and PVP players. And again it doesn’t have to be game breaking with equipment or drop rates but something to spice up the fun. I think OSRS wilderness is a good example of it and it could be implemented in that way.

[brisk raptor]

a certain map would be good but not all maps

[short glacier]

I'll give the ✅ , but not for the execution you proposed, only the idea.

[short glacier]

this seems more reasonable than having almost open PvP everywhere

[buoyant halo]

It would be only the nightmare mode maps the dev had in mind. Harder mobs, open pk, and then loot could somewhat be more valuable. Again idk what it would be in terms of like balance

[gusty spade]

Pking doesn't make sense in a PVE game. It would be incredibly difficult to balance. Not to mention how easy it would be for max level min maxxers to just completly control a map. They would just be able to gatekeep whatever items, exp, or rewards are on that map. Especially since top players tend to ally with eachother. Would just be like creating a map to give to one guild on each server. Assuming the same guild wouldn't just control every server... 👀

[short glacier]

yeah, but that's kinda the intention

PvP players in MMOs also rarely are solo players

so you'd want to enter one of those guilds and challenge the map

and if it's a map open 24/7 it would be VERY VERY hard for a guild to control it

specially if guilds are as small as I imagine they will be

(like max roster 50)

[gusty spade]

Dont you play on my server? The same dudes are online all day taking every mvp. You think they wouldn't dominate a pk map? They'd just roll whatever it broken op at the time and it wouldn't even be a match lol

Most PVP games do not have a foundation like this game lol. And they're far larger

If you wanna give people a setting to turn PVP on or off, like some classic mmos did, then sure. They get to choose when they wanna die, seems fair lol. Forced PVP, doesn't work for this game. No way lol

[visual glen]

its not "forced pvp", in the way I suggested, it will be a optional pvp with consequences for the offenders. Ok do you want to be the psychokiller and dominate a specific map? you probably cant, you gonna have 3 kills maximum a day, in the skull system, this is enough to acquire a red skull flag, in this case, even low lvl players can group and kill this bastard. If they win, they gonna receveid all itens from the PK player. And this player will stay as a Red Skull person for 30 days. And this is a living mmo, simulating real life dangerous and the sense of community.

[short glacier]

taking some MVPs and making sure no one gets to farm in a big map are very different things

specially if the map is like Arena and has many portals with invincibility upon entering

you enter, you see the guy dominating the map? go back, back again and look, is he still there?

or even, enter with some friends, they'll have to defeat 3+ people alone? low chances of success

[buoyant halo]

I mean this game was made with RO as a mentor and RO had PvP and a PK server back in the old days when it had multiple different servers and things went fine until you know gravity became gravity. Even private servers are RO are still being made with PK in mind. Again with OSRS wilderness there was a skull system so if you want to be a psycho killer you could but there were consequences for it. I’m just saying with just PVP arena, a guild siege/WoE every once a week things are gonna get stale. Some players love PVE, some players love PVP, so to make things work for both the dev had in mind a nightmare mode map where it would be old maps but just harder mobs and maybe better gear. What’s the point of that if it’s just fighting the same mobs and getting better gear? Eventually your gonna min max yourself to death of just doing PVE. So to spice it up add PVP/PK to the maps so that there’s another risk reward factor into. Again I don’t know what the balancing would be for it like what the incentive of doing the nightmare mode maps, but OSRS wilderness is a great example of PVE and PK in a game working well together.

[gusty spade]

Maybe when this game is much much further along in development. From how the game is right now, this would not be a good idea. Closer to the final build, if the goal is achieved and people party more frequently, and the power gap is conciderably closer between classes, this could work. From what we have today, this would just be a punishment for everyone

[short glacier]

I mean, changing it from "it's not a good idea" to "it's not possible to implement this asap" is lowkey goalpost moving. But I don't feel very strongly about this one way or another

I love GvG, not solo PvP or something like that. and I like my GvGs kinda organized.
So a PK System wouldn't give me exactly what I want in terms of gameplay

would be better to me than simply killing mobs, but wouldn't scratch the itch really

so if at the end of the day it's too damaging for the PvE community, then it's not worth it (imho) because it's not very engaging to me either

GvGs are make or break to me, if there simply wasn't any, then I probably wouldn't hype very much to play

then it would be a hill I'd be willing to die on

[gusty spade]

Yeah. It took them 3 years before they implemented PK, and it was extremely unpopular. Especially the risk and reward system you're speaking of, this was completely removed after 3 months: https://mro.gnjoy.com/notice/detail?seq=2863

I'm not saying this could never work. I'm saying the foundation we have today that this would be built on could never work. When the game is much further along in development and has strayed further away from the path of RO with its own identity, and the power gaps between classes has been contained, and maps feel larger and more diverse, and party play is a more common thing. Then I think features like PK and PK servers could be introduced. But atm, they'd be more empty than the PVP arena we have today. Also, putting necessary resources (items and mobs) is forcing PVP btw. A lot of Mmos enjoyed adding that sense of danger. But they didn't have to worry about a dude with 2 hare cards running up and two tapping you lol

[potent root]

PK is fun. Could consider having it in selected maps or a dedicated PK server with boosted XP and drops. This would allow the ppl who dislike PvP to keep playing PvE safely while the PvP players can have some extra fun.

[normal jolt]

Ah yes.. the spawn camping, thrash-talking people whose egos lie on bullying other players for fun. no

[visual glen]

if you dont like humans, you can always play offline games lol

[short glacier]

I don't think that's what they said at all

[visual glen]

well, play mmorpg was always interact with every kind of human being, the good and the bad ones. when you have people acting like villains, we just need people acting like heroes, and this is what make mmorpg so legendary.

[short glacier]

if it's RPing, yeah

like WWE.

but people being actual jerks don't make things epic

[normal jolt]

It is not fun when you just want to relax and play a game you like only for blood-thirsty, good-for-nothing pk'ers decide to ruin the only time you have to enjoy some chill gaming session. still no to pk system. If you want to release all those pent up urge to pk, there's arena. go live in there. i will just ignore that map exists. making every map a pk zone is just plain toxic and will drive players away from the game.

[visual glen]

In Tibia, dying came with heavy consequences. You could lose an entire level or more of experience, all the items inside your backpack, some of your equipped gear, and even skill levels that directly affected your damage. Dying was never fun, not at all. And yet, the game still had its PK system, and it worked incredibly well.

Of course, there were players who abused their power, dominant guilds that ruled over others, and people who behaved unfairly. But no other game managed to deliver the same level of immersion and adrenaline as Tibia, precisely because of that PK system. Knowing that every time you left the city to hunt, you might not make it back alive made the experience unique. The thrill of surviving, returning with your loot, and realizing how much you could have lost was unforgettable.

The real magic happened when you actually encountered a PK. You had two options: fight if you were strong enough, or run and do everything possible to save your life and items. Those moments created some of the most intense adrenaline rushes you could experience sitting at a computer.

Modern games, by contrast, tend to be easier and more relaxed. Even in Spirit Vale, where monsters can deal high damage to non-tanks and the death rate is relatively high, there’s no real penalty for dying. You simply respawn nearby in a matter of seconds.

Many of Tibia’s systems could have made other classic MMOs, like Ragnarok, much more engaging. But over time, the genre shifted toward the “theme park” model popularized by WoW, and the sense of risk and tension faded. That’s why the PK system in Tibia remains such a defining example: it showed how meaningful risk and consequence can transform an online world into something truly memorable.

[normal jolt]

Your idea of fun revolves around not feeling safe where ever you are. Why do you think we currently have an Anti-KS system implemented at the moment? You said it yourself, people will always be jerks. The arena is already there to flex. Why bring it anywhere else? there's a reason why there's a dedicated map to pvp.

forcing pk in the overworld where people just want to have some time to chill, chat, level, and party with one another to hunt/summon bosses is something to be kept sacred.

If you want a pk zone, then probably make a separate map, complete with its own gearing system where you have permanent pk on.. where every event revolves around pvp.

just keep that toxic system away from the PvE aspect of the game.

[visual glen]

What you’re describing sounds closer to Genshin Impact, that’s not really the MMORPG genre. PvP, PK, guilds, wars, and PvE have always been core parts of every MMO. The way you put it makes it seem like 100% of MMO players today are casual and have limited time to play. But in reality, most players rush through PvE content precisely so they can compete in PvP.

Playing an MMO that only offers endless PvE without any competitive objective at the end doesn’t really make sense.

Once again, the system I proposed is much more punishing for offenders than for players who choose not to PK anyone. And if that still isn’t enough, we could always discuss additional rules to prevent players from abusing the system and harming others’ gameplay. But censoring this entire mechanic just because it makes some people uncomfortable, I honestly think that’s completely wrong. The option should always exist, with consequences, yes, but it should be there.

10 Economic Reasons Why a MMORPG Should Have a Fair PK System

1. Retention of Hardcore Players
   Competitive players who seek adrenaline and risk are more likely to stay engaged when real danger exists.This increases player retention and reduces churn.

2. Dynamic Item Economy
   The possibility of losing items upon death creates real scarcity in the market. Rare drops hold higher value, and overall loot inflation is kept under control.

3. Added Value to PvE
   Hunting in dangerous maps becomes more rewarding due to higher risk. This creates a hierarchy of maps, encouraging player movement and diversifying the economy.

4. Market for Services (PvP/PvE)
   Guilds can sell protection services, mercenaries can be hired for hunts or wars, and escort systems emerge as new player-driven revenue streams.

5. Increased Demand for Consumables
   Frequent battles and deaths raise the consumption of potions, scrolls, and buffs, driving continuous economic activity.

6. Incentive for Player Trading
   If loot and items can be lost, players are more likely to trade instead of hoarding. This keeps the in-game economy fluid and active.

7. Motivation for Cash Shop Spending
   A fair but risky PK system can be softened by item insurance, premium potions, or recovery boosts, creating direct monetization opportunities.

8. Sustainable Economic Cycle
   Deaths that remove items and currency from circulation act as a natural sink, stabilizing the in-game economy and controlling inflation.

9. Competitiveness that Fuels Content
   Conflicts between players and guilds generate stories, streams, and viral videos, which serve as free marketing and attract new players.

10. Barrier Against Bots and Exploits
    High-value farming bots would naturally be hunted by players, reducing the need for constant moderation and lowering operational costs, while keeping the economy cleaner.

A fair PK system doesn’t just add thrill and immersion, it also builds a healthy, profitable, and sustainable economic cycle for the MMORPG.

[normal jolt]

1. Not all hardcore players are into PK. There may be hardcore players that are RP'ers, or raiders. Generalizing Hardcore Players are PK'ers is just invalid.
2. This will also create a monopoly and make it super hard for beginners to enjoy the game without them being targetted by power hungry guilds.
3. What value? Stealing boss kills and loot through PK?
4. Why would a very casual player would opt to do the extra hoop of paying other players just to feel safe grinding?
5. Healing potions aren't in the game but I seldom see other players complain for the lack of it? So this is kinda moot.
6. See #2
7. If you're going to pay for safety, I'm out. If I am going to pay for something, it should only be within the realm of cosmetics or anything that doesn't directly affect the game experience or give "temporary" protection.
8. It also lowers the value of items. It is also hard to balance since if an item is so powerful and no other player other than the top guild has access, then the game will be more frustrating and will drive away any potential newbies... so yeah.. attrition. not a good way to keep the game afloat
9. Not all players are competitive. Why inject competitive pk elements in a PvE map where again, to reiterate, players just want to turn their brains off and kill some fantasy monsters.
10. The same top guilds that grief can also bot and protect said bots.

[visual glen]

@normal jolt hey man, thanks for all the dialogue, we dont agree, but I respect your opinion. I dont want to monopolize the post, hope more people come with some good arguments like you and we can in the end find a fun solution for everyone.

[languid bison]

i dont mind if they make its own dedicated server, but the majority of the players playing pve games to enjoy pve. its a dumb idea to force them experience non-concensual pvp. the current pvp or colosseum is nice tho

pvp server/pk will never have effective traction in a game like this. unless the premise of the game were focused for it from the begining like albion or any other pvp competitive games.

[short glacier]

own dedicated server is a bad idea because the player base isn't very big. maybe a year after launch it could work

[solar quiver]

Love being able to pk in any shape way and form, if people dont like it then they just gotta get better

[languid bison]

ye, but thats like the majority of the players. marginalizing the majority is just plain idiotic

its like forcing players to fight bots in csgo, same logic but vise versa

unless this game is a charity project that doesnt care about traction, then do it

[merry stone]

Just don't do PK on PvE maps where people level up, played enough servers that enabled it to knows how toxic it can get. The proper way to do it is open a map (can only enter once, can't go back in if you decide to leave the map) that drops upgrade materials (or pets) on weekends for a limited time, getting killed means dropping half the loot you farmed. Have a safe zone that people can retreat in case someone is out for blood. This kind of setup makes it so that people focus more on farming than PK itself cause of the limited time and only start the killing spree when it's nearing the end or no space to take. We could go further and make it a guild event dedicated for PvE

[buoyant halo]

Never said it had to be every map just nightmare mode maps. Just look at the name NIGHTMARE maps. People are gonna make their builds and min max it a point where those maps are cakewake. PK would add a spice of things into. You can still have a chill game session and have pk in a game. If you get upset because you can’t farm an item within two or three hours of playing due to PK just play another day. It’s a marathon not a sprint it’s ok to take multiple days even months to get an item that you want because there are other things to do within the game. Chill with friends, dungeons(whenever he adds them), theory craft different builds, etc etc.

[normal jolt]

Easy for one to say to play another day when you're an adult, doing adult things and had a very specific time to play and relax, only to get griefed by always online people with nothing else to do but to flex their e-peens to other players.

[buoyant halo]

First I am adult. Second getting killed by PKers because I’m trying to farm an item does not affect me. One because if I don’t get the item I just don’t get the item, the game isn’t gonna shut down anytime soon and there is always another day I can play. Maybe not within that week but there is always another day. Two I don’t care for min max I actually believe that many MMOS suffer nowadays due to people wanting to min max the minute the game drops and no one actually just wants to play the game and understand it through time. Again I’ll use RO1, tibia, OSRS and even Mabinogi. When you played those games back in the day it could take you MONTHS and I mean MONTHS to get the one item you were craving for. But when you got it you felt sheer accomplishment for getting it. An honestly even if it wasn’t the best in slot weapon or item you didn’t care because you wanted it. This game as it is now has no challenge and games don’t survive if their isn’t some type of challenge involved because we as human beings want to be challenged. Whether that’s killing a boss by ourselves, being number one 1 in gvg or PvP, being a crazy lunatic with a high pk score, etc etc. As of now the arena is stale( yes I can have high octane moments) but those moments have to be coordinated or ask within chat to kill or try something out. The reason why tibia and Albion have such a good and hardcore group of players is due to the PK system being a fair yes but also creating high octane moments out of nowhere or out of the blue. Again I said these PK maps would be for endgame nightmare maps which the developer has said is harder maps at a higher level. So leveling is out the question most if not all people would be close to max level or close to a finish build. What are you sweating about if you’re already at max level and close to your build being done?

[buoyant halo]

I like this idea but it kinda takes away the purpose of PK. You said make the maps more so the emphasis of farming than PK. I think you need players who are bloodthirsty and wants to just PK just to do it. That’s how you build lore in a game or memories and tales within a game. Maybe a whole villain guild that is just made for PKing and they go to war against players against it.

I think the real question is this. For people who are opposed to to PK within an MMO why are you opposed to it? And when you have that reason as to why what is the driving factor to that reason?(i.e. I don’t like PK because when I want to farm an item I get killed by griffers and then can’t get the item on my off day or something). And then once you have acknowledge that driving factor just take the time and ask yourself the question “why am I in a hurry or why am I trying to finish this now?” Just want to know what opinions are on PKing in general.

[merry stone]

Sure, just let me know your IGN if we ever have an open PK. My brothers from the cafe era are still actively playing MMOs enough to form a guild in this game. I don't mind bringing them here to relive the bygone days of marking players 24/7, friending them with an alt to track their logins, offering bounties for locations, switching alts when things get ugly and then get back later when you're leveling. Yea, it was fun back then playing with my friends 😮‍💨

[velvet cosmos]

good suggestion however, just go play albion 🙏

i hope your days are great and you get ganked 24/7 outside blue region 🙏

[fresh whale]

i think a specific zone where pvp is enabled that has some higher rate should could MAYBE work but anything else is just cringe for how this game is meant to be played. PVP is fine as it is currently meant to be played with the future additions ( arena / gvg etc )

but specific pvp maps that also have grinding doesnt really mesh with how the game works / how RO works

each map has its own varied loot table

so a lucrative pvp map would have to either a) not have unique loot, copying loot from other zones with higher rates b) have to be GENERIC loot that has "high" instrinsic value ( the enhancing mats / high gold drop #s )

a) dont think this works well with how the game is meant to be.
b) heavily incentivizes cabals and controlling maps. lopsides the economy towards the groups who will be able to monopolize the zone.

which is not healthy for the game and ruins the "spirit" of having a pvp map

[fresh whale]

this is just disingenuous. hardcore player is not ubiquitous with pvp. Nor is being a competitive player. PVP games have significantly higher churn rate then PVE. It's why every successful PVP game is structured around seasonal resets.

2. Scarcity already exists. Items that are actually valuable // have the correct stats already creates this market. Losing items on death in long term never does this well. Items aren't scarce in Albion. They're printed on machines because you're expected to lose them.

3. The game is not structured around pushing players into higher zones. It's structured around grinding the items you need for your build. PVP doesn't do anything to diversify the economy. Pushing more players into endgame zones because of the forced incentive would have the opposite effect.

4. Telling new players they need to pay someone to be allowed to grind is just. insane work.

5. "potions, scrolls, and buffs" none of these exist in the game.

6. If loot and items can be lost. It incentivizes hoarding because I need to replace the gear I might lose. What value does selling gear for gold have when I die in a map and lose my weapon and then have to go sit in town trying to buy one?

7. Lol. No. Adding p2w just so you can force pvp in a game is just. wow.

8. This goldsink only has value in games where gear is created via different means. Like the game that this is better suited for albion. Where gear is crafted not farmed.

9. Open world pking is not the only way to generate conflict between players and guilds. GVGs/ Sieges / Arenas exist. More stories are created by guild drama in GVG / Siege content then is ever created by open world pvp.

10. This does nothing. It's a misnomer. Bots dont go in open world pvp zones.

[visual glen]

I just want to reiterate that the proposed system is not an open-world full PvP, as some people seem to think. It’s an optional PvP system. You can kill someone, but doing so will make you vulnerable to being killed without consequences. And if you kill too many players, the punishment escalates. For example, in Tibia’s skull system, a red skull could last for 30 days, basically a death sentence for your character, forcing you to start fresh.

So once again, the point here is to discuss a system with rules that discourage abuse, not a free-for-all. But it seems most people aren’t even open to the discussion. As someone said earlier, the mentality for many is just “turn off your brain and farm 2D mobs.” If that’s really the community’s mindset, then there’s no way this conversation can move forward.

[fresh whale]

Flag-to-kill pvp is still open world pvp.

"For example, in Tibia’s skull system, a red skull could last for 30 days, basically a death sentence for your character, forcing you to start fresh."

if this was true. Tibia wouldn't have had to implement a Black Skull tier aswell.

It's not much of a discussion when half your points are either steeped in misinformation / misrepresenting how the system would actually play out. or just blatantly false categorizations.

[buoyant halo]

Flag to kill pvp is not open world pvp. Mabinogi had a great system with it during the beginning of the Iria update where Giants/elves were fight amongst themselves since their was lore around it. Same thing with paladins and dark knights. You COULD ONLY DO PVP if you check a box for it. If not it was not possible. Their can be players in this game that could flag off open PvP and enjoy all the PVE content to their hearts content and then players who want to kill and have PVP on or even challenge run players who have a challenge of having the setting on at all times. Just possibility’s guys possibility

[buoyant halo]

And again to the point I made before this like end game content. Like end end game content where the nightmare mode maps are at. This isn’t during the mid game or grinding for levels or grinding or farming items to have a complete build. This is when the build is complete and there are just maybe a couple best in slot weapons you can gain. Or you want to tweak something a little. Or you’re close to min maxing your character and is missing an item or two. Thats when the Open PK maps would exist. The best way I can explain what point of the game this would be is like playing RO1 and your missing one MVP card that like gives you maybe a 2% or 3% better damage for some dungeons or whatever.

[fresh whale]

ro1 missing 1 mvp card to complete your build is like

several years worth of grinding

think theres just a disconnect that this isnt the type of game that facilitates ope nworld pvp.

There isn't "mid game grinding for levels". Your'e always grinding for levels + gear

[short glacier]

I'm unfollowing this XDD it's not very productive anymore

[normal jolt]

Then why play a game that doesn't let me because griefers be griefing?

Not all players have the leisure of being able to set a free time when they opt to.

Still no. PK will only deter the growth and will only cuddle the egos of bullies.

I played albion on and off for almost a year. I quit because i cannot explore the entirety of the game without getting pk'ed. All the crafters in major towns are being controlled by a single guild.

Making SpiritVale have PK maps enabled will surely make me quit, in a heartbeat

Too bad, i can only vote once as i will ❌ this as much as i can.

[gusty spade]

I believe for people who want PK is to get the PVP arena alive and in a healthy place. If people in this game find value and fun from PVP, then it'll be an easier transition to adding pk maps. But atm, PK sounds like a crutch to force more people into PVP play instead of an additional outlet.

So far from what I've seen, PVP has been dead since after the first 2 days of it opening. Not a solid investment with that outlook

Also, I'm not against adding a dueling system like in Mabinogi, or a PVP mode on and off toggle in the settings. At least with the latter you can generate enough data to know if people really care for pvping across maps

[visual glen]

actual arena = shit, not objective, no rounds, no happy hour, nothing, just random people in random timezones testing builds sometimes. thats why is empty all the time.

[gusty spade]

Literally the same as in RO, except arenas were very popular.

If you're saying the only reason to PVP is with objectives and rounds. Then pking doesn't solve that. If only reason for a pk map are the items. Then we can have the map without pking

Like I said, if you need to force people to PVP, then we don't need PVP.

[arctic folio]

Arena should give points where you can buy pvp stuff with. Like in Wow, you can go raid for more pve stuffs or go to battleground for pvp stuffs. Overall you can décide which gameplay you like more and still improve your stuffs. Some map can get an nightmare version with pk enabled where you can have pvp/pve stuff. The same as you can get in raid or battleground. This put a third gameplay, you dont lock stuff behind walls.