Setting to Auto-rotate your character to the enemy when attacking/casting

[crystal saffron]

How could you I trusted in you!

xDD

[radiant pecan]

Even tho there's a 20% GCD slow lol

It's a TREMENDOUS DPS loss XD

[crystal saffron]

Honestly i'm shocked that this nerf is... Not enough?

[celest nest]

If done well, it opens the game to some people that wouldn't have been able to play it otherwise... what's the big deal ?

[radiant pecan]

I think you hit enrages in bosses if you play with this on

[vast owl]

I dont hate the one button rotation but i dont like the effort and time spent on it when the game obviously has many other issues

[radiant pecan]

Yep

Just like difficulty settings in Souls-likes

Lies of P for example

[crystal saffron]

Honestly i see your point, i'm just joking with you

[radiant pecan]

Some people are like "That's the biggest hot take of the world"

But it really is not

The ones who don't like it don't like it because then they think: "These people playing on lower difficulties can get the same achievements as me without having difficulty"

[celest nest]

As long as you can outperform the 1 button rotation by playing decently well, I honestly don't see the issue

[radiant pecan]

"So my achievements have no value anymore"

This is mainly an ego problem

[crystal saffron]

But for that one I admit it hurt my ego, having to master a full rotation and being beaten by someone who use 1 button and one braincell... it's harsh 😢

[radiant pecan]

Where it is an accessbility setting really

[celest nest]

Yeah. It put things in perspective

[radiant pecan]

But with a 20% GCD slow you would never beat the DPS of someone who really masters the real rotation of the character lol

[crystal saffron]

Also that make some people say that some people play the game "as intended" while other play in "baby mode", not perfect to keep a calm community ^^'

[vast owl]

You probably dont beat someone playing with one hand either

Its not just gcd increase

[crystal saffron]

But honestly all people should play how they want

[vast owl]

It wont use your cooldowns properly

[radiant pecan]

Or clicking the spells with your mouse

XD

[vast owl]

Lmao there are many good clickers in game actually

Crazy

[crystal saffron]

Hey, i click some of my spells

The one to the right

[radiant pecan]

Yeah just like that one Osu! player playing the game with full mouse lol

[crystal saffron]

Because I don't bind my keys correctly 🥲

[celest nest]

Top 5 Helena is mouse clicking , so I wouldn't bet on that

[vast owl]

In wow i only click consumables and buffs

Its too many keybinds otherwise

[radiant pecan]

Waaaaah

[crystal saffron]

RTS player moment

[celest nest]

One of the top hunters in BfA was also a mouse clicker

[crystal saffron]

It hurt my wrist to imagine the speed required on the mouse

[celest nest]

On wow, it hurts, Fellowship is honestly a pretty slow game

[radiant pecan]

On FFXIV I actually use all my spells with keyboard only around my WASD hand lol

[celest nest]

With not that many abilities outside of gcd

[crystal saffron]

Yeah the GCD is chill, it's somewhat relaxing

[uncut terrace]

the thing is, it requires people to be beyond decent. For the record, for m+, you can get to like 0.2% of the best lol. (Part of the factor is that people don't try to climb.) But it's absurd.

One button rotation outperforms many players, and for people who are better than the default, they'll be even better if they spam the one button.

[crystal saffron]

Yikes not good :/

[uncut terrace]

(previous season, it was claimed with a full team, you can take it to the tile.)

[radiant pecan]

Well this is bad then

[celest nest]

Why ? It's more or less a 20% decrease from theoretical best dps... if you can't be better than that. Maybe it's not the game for you as someone said earlier

[crystal saffron]

It should perform more or less as good as an average player

Not like a very very good one

[uncut terrace]

the reasoning is, it's a lot easier to teach people how to use their cooldowns.

Why ? It's more or less a 20% decrease from theoretical best dps... if you can't be better than that. Maybe it's not the game for you as someone said earlier
You realize, that's two key levels?

[radiant pecan]

oGCDs don't account for the GCD speed decrease I guess

[celest nest]

Patently false also

[radiant pecan]

That's why the damage isn't a big difference I suppose

[uncut terrace]

right now, there's +23 as the highest key, now, that means mathematically, people can do a +21. Is that acceptable? that's like 0.2% territory or maybe 0.1%.

[celest nest]

2 key level is a huge difference in wow

[crystal saffron]

Whe should try to post a feedback for a one button rotation, I think it will be way more heated than this post

[vast owl]

Is it? The average player is much worse than you think

[radiant pecan]

XDDD

[celest nest]

It's perfectly acceptable... just be better at the game 🤷‍♂️

[uncut terrace]

that still puts you to like 0.2% of all players in m+. That is frankly absurd.

Sounds like arguing for chess engines to be allowed in chess, just be better than a program.

(chess engines will outplay grandmasters fwiw.)

[crystal saffron]

Chess engines are useful for training but yeah, not in real matches though xD

[celest nest]

Chess engine will destroy a grand master

[uncut terrace]

yes.

[radiant pecan]

Yeah chess engines outperform everyone, but a one-button rotation that has a 20% GCD decrease shouldn't ever beat a good player

So what's the deal with it really?

[celest nest]

But that's not what the 1 button rotation is

[vast owl]

OBR isnt just increased gcd

There are expected values for dps loss in wowhead for each spec

Theyre much more than 20%

(some of them anyway)

[radiant pecan]

Well

[vast owl]

Some specs are super simple

[radiant pecan]

It isn't a problem then

If it's even more than a 20% loss

[uncut terrace]

theoretical max is theoretical. The world's best players are like 90%. So like.... it's going to be better than 99% of players or 99.9%. And good players can be even better if they spam the one button

GCDs aren't weighted equally.

[celest nest]

If you can't play better than 20% of the theoretical best, maybe the game is too hard for you 🤷‍♂️

[radiant pecan]

Is it like a priority list and it just puts the highest priority button as the next one?

[uncut terrace]

Like if you play for 20 seconds of your opener, and then you spam the one button rotation, your dps loss is probably like 5%....

[vast owl]

Is it a good priority list? Does it use cooldowns?

Not really from what i've read

[uncut terrace]

the priority list is as perfect as can be without using cooldowns.

[crystal saffron]

It's badly optimized?

[celest nest]

Your math isnt mathing... how can someone outperforming the 1br be better if he play the 1br ?

[uncut terrace]

because you don't need to spam it 100% of the time.

[vast owl]

Im not sure, i think its slightly different from the APLs on raidbots

[uncut terrace]

Say you do 90%. your dps is probably higher than not using it.

Which is why world first raiders use it.

10% actual play, 90% obr stuff.

[vast owl]

Where do rwf players use it

Is it for kills or is it to figure out mechanics

[uncut terrace]

probably duringn mechanic heavy phases? TK claimed they do, and I'm willing to believe.

[vast owl]

I'd be really sad if thats true

[celest nest]

I didnt really followed the rwf, but max talked about it in one video

[uncut terrace]

like it's a tool that probably shouldn't be viable, but it is. GCDs aren't weighted equally.

[vast owl]

Play the dang game jesus, world first my ass

[celest nest]

I think it's dimensius during one of the heavy movement phase

[vast owl]

I didnt know they had a 21st player, the computer

[uncut terrace]

like you do your opener, that's so much of your damage, then you can spam the one button to chill until the next time your cooldowns are up.

[celest nest]

That would be a 22 player in this case, 21th player has been there for a few years already 🤣

[uncut terrace]

and if mechanics are happening, you can just spam the one button cause that's easier mentally than doing everything else actually perfect...

[radiant pecan]

Oh so they can use their normal rotation AND swap to a one-button rotation whenever?

[uncut terrace]

yeeeep

[radiant pecan]

It's not a "mode" that you choose first

[celest nest]

Imagine telling world first players that they should play the game better 🤣

[vast owl]

No, its a keybind

[uncut terrace]

you can use it as much or as little as you want. It's not like you're locked in.

[vast owl]

They have been for 20 years now

[uncut terrace]

so hard part of the fight? just spam the one button than trying to actually dps.

[vast owl]

Now theyve decided to save on brainpower?

[uncut terrace]

it's using brainpower for other things.

[vast owl]

Whats next, /follow the nearest healer?

[celest nest]

Tbf, the top world players now are not the same as 20y ago..

[vast owl]

This game is going to shit 😭😭

[radiant pecan]

Come to the other side

[uncut terrace]

if one button was actually the only thing you can use, it probably makes it reasonable.

[vast owl]

Honestly i think its better for nnoggie and the like to spend the brainpower writing weakauras than using the OBR

[uncut terrace]

players can complement their actual rotation with the one button rotation.

[celest nest]

A good thing that WA is disappearing for Midnight then

[uncut terrace]

raiders aren't writing weakauras, they have paid staff lol.

WA disappearing and one button rotation remaining makes no sense.

[vast owl]

It was nnoggie, main tank

[uncut terrace]

One button rotation literally plays the game for you.

[radiant pecan]

So if I can sum up, @uncut terrace and @vast owl you only fear that adding auto-rotation will open doors to putting "shit" like one-button rotation to the game?

[uncut terrace]

No, I don't. I just think auto rotation shouldn't be added on a principle thing.

[vast owl]

Pretty much for me anyway, i wouldnt use it really anyway

[uncut terrace]

it's not something I'd like to see automated.

[celest nest]

@vast owl why are you sad ? WA was automating things for you... given your opinion on auto rotating, I assumed you were 100% against any kind of addons helping you /s

[vast owl]

Unfortunately there needs to be a line where we stop automating things

And this is as good as any

[crystal saffron]

Like I said before auto rotation is a norm on some game, but not in WoW that's why you feel that way

[vast owl]

As it has to do with direction and positioning and such

[celest nest]

Like removing combat addons in wow ?

[uncut terrace]

just because it's in another game, doesn't mean I like it. I wish WOW didn't have the one button rotation. Just because WOW has it, doesn't mean it's good.

[radiant pecan]

WoW doesn't have an enmity list IIRC Lol

[vast owl]

If theyre replaced with something on par

[celest nest]

Why ?

[radiant pecan]

Without addons

[celest nest]

Aren't addons automating things for you ?

[vast owl]

Because they have built this game to require/demand these addons over the years, now they must replace them

[crystal saffron]

It's fine to not like it, because it should clearly not be mandatory

[vast owl]

They provide information, they dont move my character

[uncut terrace]

blizz is like not really doing that. Many addons? they'll just be authored by Blizz and flat out worse.

[celest nest]

Could have 100% predicted this would be your answer

[uncut terrace]

one button rotation isn't mandatory either. The logic falls flat.

[vast owl]

Theyre different classes of automation

Surely you must understand that

[crystal saffron]

One button rotation isn't the subject, this argument fall flat

[uncut terrace]

No, it's you being unable to comprehend things.

[radiant pecan]

Coming from FFXIV auto-rotating seems like a normal thing to me
You're coming from WoW I presume so for you it's some alien thing

[celest nest]

Yeah, most advanced WA and addons are automating so much more than just moving your character

[uncut terrace]

and unable to accept other people's points of view.

[vast owl]

Like what

Theres no weakaura that turns or repositions your character

[crystal saffron]

What? That scares me xD

[uncut terrace]

Just because a game has it, doesn't mean I want it. If I played FFXIV, maybe I'd want that gone.

[vast owl]

Maybe you can argue that macros are automation, weakauras arent

[radiant pecan]

And FFXIV still has "Look at the boss" "Don't look at the boss" mechs

[crystal saffron]

Why though?

[radiant pecan]

And they're deadly lol

[uncut terrace]

WAS just provides information , for you to act on.

[crystal saffron]

Just not use it?

[celest nest]

Honestly? We gonna argue that a wa telling you exactly where to go or which add to dps or which player to target is not way worse than a simple rotation?

[uncut terrace]

it's not worse. It's like this game having DBM. (which it does.)

[radiant pecan]

Wait there's addons that tell you what to target first between different adds???

[vast owl]

It is, and you can ignore it, or be too dumb to understand or too slow to react, it doesnt do it for you

[crystal saffron]

What? This is... Something...

[vast owl]

Yes

[celest nest]

Autotarget of the right mob on a keypress isn't automation ?

[radiant pecan]

That's f***ed up

[celest nest]

Yes, 100%

[vast owl]

Not anymore than tab target going to the caster is

(a setting in fellowship)

(it doesnt work)

[radiant pecan]

LOL

[vast owl]

I should open a thread for it

[celest nest]

Dbm is just information... WA is so much more

[crystal saffron]

The thread : What doesn't work? The game

[vast owl]

Lmao, it is early access

[celest nest]

(Dbm in Fellowship, dbm in wow has automation)

[vast owl]

I have hopes

[crystal saffron]

I know xD

[uncut terrace]

you know Blizz is baking in the rotation part of WA into the base client? like they're trying with their cooldown manager.

[crystal saffron]

But still, some bugs are weird x)

[uncut terrace]

Then you have the weakauras that solve bosses. Now, you just won't get those bosses. There's no world in where you fight a weakaura boss without weakauras.

[radiant pecan]

Tbh Addons in WoW seemed really borderline

[celest nest]

Honestly, i didn't think it'll go to WA is less automation than autorotating

[radiant pecan]

When I played the game back then

7 years ago or something

[celest nest]

As per the top guilds, some boss are impossible to do without addons

(That is without the nerfs that come later)

[radiant pecan]

Like they modified the game soooooo much

[crystal saffron]

You have to believe in yourself

[uncut terrace]

WA is many things. The computational weakauras are excessive, like Echo Heart Map.

[vast owl]

Blizz were fine building their raids and dungeons on the backs of unpaid weak auras authors for years

[uncut terrace]

axing WA and leaving in and supporting one button rotation is lawl.

Blizz should do both, or neither.

[vast owl]

Now they want to rip them out and not provide their own on par?

Crazy

[uncut terrace]

and thier timeline is super fast, Midnight is set sail for fail.

[radiant pecan]

Tbh I'm talking again because we can have a human discussion about this lol

Before it was just tiring with nothing to add value to the debate

[celest nest]

Man, I honestly don't understand how you can be pro-WA but anti-autorotation...

That's wild to me

[uncut terrace]

M+ might be fun because for once good players might have rewards..

I'm pro some part of WA, the parts Blizzard is trying to replicate anway.

the boss solving stuff can go, but then you just won't get those bosses, so you don't need them to solve it.

[celest nest]

The cooldown display/ interrupt tracker / information part is really fine...

Not the "automate" things part

[vast owl]

WAs dont play the game for me

[crystal saffron]

Also it's an other subject but i'm a bit bugged that we have so little upvote on that : https://discord.com/channels/1254866410258038845/1451717419088478309
Is there an enmity list that we didn't found?

[vast owl]

Maybe the kind of weakauras that automate targeting and such need to go

[celest nest]

But they definitely do

[vast owl]

Im ok with that

[uncut terrace]

you won't get the same bosses if weakauras can't solve it. So like, sure you can remove it, but by doing so, you remove the need for it.

No one likes weakaura bosses btw.

[vast owl]

Wepl we disagree then, its fine

[celest nest]

Yeah, that's what they are doing 👍

[uncut terrace]

It's a moot point. You brick computational weakauras but you also remove the need for them. The impossible bosses come first.

[celest nest]

You disagree with all the top players too... but since they are using 1br anyway, 🤣

[uncut terrace]

like if they don't have those weakaura bosses, then it would've been fine.

[vast owl]

What does that mean

I dont think the top players disagree on whether some WAs are too much automating

Theyre kinda the cause of the wa cleanse in midnight

[celest nest]

I mean, what's the interesting part, rotating your character or finding the place you need to go to avoid the death rays of the boss ?

WA was automating the latter, which is way more potent than rotating your character.

Sure you still needed to move to the huge red spot on the ground, but that sucked any kind of intelligence of the fight, it's just mechanically moving your character to the big bright spot.

If your definition of fun is following instructions 100% of time. Sure, WA wasn't automating anything 🤷‍♂️

[radiant pecan]

WAIT WAIT WAIT, WA is telling you where to go???

I don't know what this addon does

[uncut terrace]

You won't get the same challenge without the instant instruction.

[vast owl]

Yes, some boss fights are impossible without WAs

[uncut terrace]

yea, it does. And you have like 5 seconds to do it.

[vast owl]

Go watch mythic archimonde

[uncut terrace]

there's no time to discuss where to move, you just do.

[crystal saffron]

If your sad come to FF14... Where the devs do same things... Like simplifying spells rotation... God what will MMOs become?

[vast owl]

And then go back in time and try it without the WA that shows you where to stand

[crystal saffron]

There is that in ff14 but you have to... i don't know... remember where attacks land?

It's part of the skillset required for high level bosses

I'm quite in shock actually

[radiant pecan]

At least Ultimate and Savage instances are fun and you need to learn mechanics by looking at what the boss is doing

[vast owl]

Theres probably nothing in ff14 like mythic archimonde

It was the fight that started this whole ban WA thing

[radiant pecan]

Without having to use an addon that tells you where to go

[celest nest]

Basically, WA was telling you when to press which cooldown, near whom you needed to stay, telling you where to place yourself, which add to dps, etc... the dimensius fight was choreographed to the extreme.

You stil had to position yourself perfectly and do your dps rotation perfectly, but any kind of "thinking" was totally removed from the fight.

But yeah, automatic rotation will break the game balance 🤷‍♂️

[crystal saffron]

There are some really f***ed up bosses

[vast owl]

No i mean this fight was impossible without WA

[crystal saffron]

I don't know the exact boss

[crystal saffron]

Why? There was some weird random involved?

[vast owl]

Look at the kill video, the screen basically has this giant popup yelling at you where to stand

Otherwise you dont only die, you wipe the group

[uncut terrace]

your positioning is so precise that you don't have time to figure it out.

if 20 people have to be somewhere, and your position depends on where the 20 people are, you need weakauras for that kinda.

weakauras are used to solve stuff that would require unrealistic communication otherwise.

Now, in a post weakaura world, they can give you maybe 5x the time and you can chat or whatever to solve it.

[crystal saffron]

There are some mechanics like that in harder bosses, where one misplaced player makes you wipe

[uncut terrace]

yes but it's more about time to react rather than if 20 people need to be somewhere.

[crystal saffron]

But i forgot that it's 20 people in WoW

[vast owl]

Modern wow is a dance, knowing the steps doesnt take away from the experience

[radiant pecan]

And you are instakilled for some mechs if you fail them and it happens just before the boss casts a mechanic where if a player is dead you can't do it without wiping

[crystal saffron]

It's only 8 in ff

[vast owl]

Its extremely choreographed

[crystal saffron]

Yeah same but way less people

[celest nest]

Can you honestly look at that and tell me that WA doesn't play the game in your place ?

And tbf, that's an old example, modern WAs are way worse

[vast owl]

At these levels the skill isnt in not standing in fire or doing damage, its getting 20 people to do it perfectly

[crystal saffron]

It's also a quite beautiful choregraphy when nobody f*** up

[radiant pecan]

But in FFXIV you're not told where to go lol

[uncut terrace]

WA doesn't play the game for you. You react quickly to stuff because of it. Without weakauras? Blizz simply gives you more time or deletes the mechanic.

[vast owl]

Notice how none of it is moving you to safety without you doing it tho

WAs allow for more complex mechanics, but only because without the WAs, the game doesnt give you the info

[uncut terrace]

WA tells you where to stand, now you have 5 seconds just like the other six people that got assigned. Within a position of within 80 yards of movement or something.

[vast owl]

If there was a builtin way to communicate to the player we wouldnt need WAs

[celest nest]

What's the interesting part ?

Having to think about what to do, and when ?

Or moving your character to the big bright spot ?

[vast owl]

Do you not have fun when dancing just cause you know what steps you're supposed to take ahead of time?

[radiant pecan]

Also harder FFXIV bosses don't have markers anymore, so you need to know the boss attack hitboxes

[uncut terrace]

There's a difference between giving players like 30 seconds to think vs 5 seconds and telling them to just do X. Both are acceptable, and are different challenges.

[radiant pecan]

So you don't have anything indicated and you react to the different casts the boss does

[uncut terrace]

realistically without WA, you probably have 10 to do the same thing.

[celest nest]

Tell me you never did dance without telling me 🤣

[vast owl]

🤨

[crystal saffron]

What about 3, because some boss are like that in FF (these quick bastards xD)

[uncut terrace]

but is that more than just "get out of fire?" Like it's specific.

[celest nest]

I very much like a "thinking" challenge that a "you have to be on this exact pixel in 5s" challenge

[uncut terrace]

it's a different challenge, Both are acceptable.

[crystal saffron]

The quickest yes, but i'll look for one exemple i don't remember the exact boss

[celest nest]

Fair

[vast owl]

me when i have to think in mists of tirna scithe

[uncut terrace]

Take Ky'veza ? delve thing, I can't do the boss due to the guessing game, but anyway WA doesn't work for it. And ones that did, Blizz bricked it within a day.

like you have so much time to do the mechanic.

(Too hard for me cause keeping track of shell games are hard.)

Ky'veza ?? is on super speed lol.

[radiant pecan]

For example there's one where the boss does multiple attacks on the arena in order and there needs to be 1 people standing in it and tank it but not the same person twice else you die, and each time there's this attack there's another person that gets an AoE on its head and can't stand near anyone else else it's also an almost instakill
And you don't have time to move all the way to the other end of the arena at all it happens fast

I'll try to find the boss where this happens for example

[uncut terrace]

tank swaps are like basic.

[radiant pecan]

It's not for tanks

It's for everyone

Lol

[uncut terrace]

shrug, same concept applied to everyone.

[radiant pecan]

But you need to go to a certain way in advance

[uncut terrace]

WOW has quite a bit of "rotate soaks."

[radiant pecan]

Because you don't have time to do that when it's happening

[uncut terrace]

yea, so you assign stuff, just play it according to plan.

[radiant pecan]

You place yourself before hand and you have a specific debuff

If you go to the wrong one it doesn't work too

Let me find it

[crystal saffron]

It's hard to explain honestly

[celest nest]

Seems like a fun boss.

Wow had some like that. And WA would put a big number on top of your head to tell you at which spot to stand on

[crystal saffron]

There is a boss where you have to face direction in rythm like a Dance Dance Revolution minigames, there are fun bosses xD

[vast owl]

Brawler's guild used to have fun bosses like that

[analog scroll]

Auto-rotate vs. not seems more like a control configuration thing more than a skill thing. Like to me I would find it unspeakably annoying to have the orientation of my character changed without my input. I would not use this unless there was some specific mechanic it trivialized. If that happened I’d expect the devs to disable it for that mechanic.

If people prefer a different control scheme from me that isn’t as reliant on the player controlling both the camera and character then I don’t see a good reason for them not to have that. That being said dev time is a finite resource.

[crystal saffron]

It's not without the input but when you use a skill, but yeah thats why i said that if it's added it should be optional

[crystal saffron]

Finally found it, it's an attack from the raid named P9S (or Anabaseios Ninth Circle (Savage))
We were talking about that precise mechanic : https://ff14.toolboxgaming.space/?id=108783230155861&preview=1

This part for better clarification : https://youtu.be/rnKHQtYCuAk?t=405&si=XWpWEhS5P6tCNprG

But I digress

[uncut terrace]

The entire reason people want it, is to trivialize mechanics. lol.

[crystal saffron]

And even if you were right... Is there a problem with that?

[vast owl]

Kinda, isnt there?

[crystal saffron]

Well it looks like the same arguments that peoples have about difficulty settings in other PvE games... So debatable

But in this case, thinking that auto rotating trivialize boss mechanic is really something... I'm still looking for the why since it doesn't make you dodge or even interact with the mechanic (like chaining yourself on a pole)

[celest nest]

The only reason you don't want to lose your precious addons is because it trivialize mechanics

[vast owl]

Lets get rid of addons and automoving and rotating and range indicators, LoS indicators
In fact, put on a VR headset and haptic controls and weave the ninja signs yourself, buttons and keybinds are simply abstractions that trivialize gameplay

[uncut terrace]

Blizzard's replacing them with their own inferior versions. It's not like it's flat out removal. And no one likes weakaura bosses, so like removing the computational aspect is 100% fine because we just won't get the same bosses.

weakauras encompasses many things. Some stuff? Blizzard's outright attempting to mimick.

[vast owl]

If you want to move forward you better get on one of those omnidirectional treadmills, hitting W trivializes gameplay

[uncut terrace]

It's like getting rid of DBM but having Fellowship DBM. (Less customizable, arguably inferior.)

[celest nest]

Now you are getting it

[vast owl]

You've opened my eyes

[celest nest]

Glad you finally understand that the ultimate gaming experience is no external help at all... just you and your knife !

[vast owl]

Knife? Sounds pretty external to me

Grow claws like a real gamer

[crystal saffron]

It looks like a invitation to go outside and kill people xD

Honestly i'm not really familiar with weakaura bosses, is it really impossible to remember the mechanics or do people are just lazy?

Because if the problem is just that you don't see the area of effect of a boss spell when he cast it... It's not really a big deal and it clearly don't need a tool

[vast owl]

Its not that you cant remember them, mid fight they usually mark people to do x or y thing with a few seconds to spare

[celest nest]

It's more that the mechanics are honestly too complicated. It requires perfect communication between 20 people in a fraction of seconds... which will not happen realistically.

Basically, each player need to communicate something to the leader, the leader then need to make a decision and communicate back to each players what they need to do.. .and that in less than 10 seconds usually.

So what you do instead is that each player press a keybind which communicate to WA some information, then WA compute the solution and display it on screen.

[uncut terrace]

you have 5 seconds to decide where 5 different people should go into very specific places. They can't overlap with each other.

[vast owl]

In archimonde you get marked with beams that shoot out in front and behind you, you have to find a configuration to avoid hitting anyone or being hit

[uncut terrace]

and you don't know who these 5 people are. Just moving from standing position to the new position already takes like 4.5 seconds.

[crystal saffron]

5 seconds for 5 person is pretty reasonable but with 20 persons it's... harsh

[vast owl]

That boss just doesnt happen without weakauras or severely overgearing it

[celest nest]

Yeah, it was more like a symbolical knife ^^

[vast owl]

Imagine ransack last boss with the beams, except its a oneshot and its 20 people

[uncut terrace]

but like you're say in the middle. And just moving to the direction takes 4.5. So you can't correct.

[analog scroll]

One guild did the fight no WA very early, they just lost WF because they did a less efficient strat

[celest nest]

Yeah, archimonde is not a good example, because he was killed without WAs

[vast owl]

I mean its an example and world first used the weakaura to kill it

[celest nest]

bad example also,. because ransack is basicalla Archmonde with the WA

[crystal saffron]

Oh right the bosses arena can be massive in WoW

[uncut terrace]

so you have 5 people, going to 5 different places, and they're supposed to magically know which one lol.

[vast owl]

Theres no equivalent to these bosses in fellowship

[celest nest]

yeah, but it's a bad example... and also your comparison to Ransack is really bad, because the visual aid on ransack is basically what the WA did ^^

[uncut terrace]

It's not like you can pick the wrong direction, realize, adjust.

[vast owl]

Ok so imagine all that and the beams also dont show

And its just one mechanic

[crystal saffron]

That part don't seems really abnormal for me

[celest nest]

now you get it, nice !

[uncut terrace]

How are you going to compensate though? there's no time.

people just have to commit.

[crystal saffron]

You need to not go the wrong way... I know too well that kind of attacks ^^'

[uncut terrace]

Right, but you don't know which is the "right way"

all 5 people get the same thing to deal with, so it's not like you magically know where to go (hence weakaura.)

the right way is dependent on where the other four go.

[crystal saffron]

What the boss just randomly hit a portion of the arena without any hints?

Is this russian roulette?

[uncut terrace]

like those 5 people kill everyone around them within 30 yards or something.

[analog scroll]

Jailer bombs, that was a WA mechanic that was fully impossible to do without WA until the damage on it had been nerfed many times

[crystal saffron]

An away type of attack?

[uncut terrace]

like it's a simple "get away from people" mechanic, but limited by fight area.

[uncut terrace]

The person will explode. You have time to run away.

[vast owl]

Uh who else, Thaddius i think? Star augur, ToS maiden etc

[uncut terrace]

or more likely those 5 people move away.

[crystal saffron]

Oh that kind, yeah it's already chaotic with 8 person vith 20 it can be a quite tricky

[celest nest]

it's funny how you none of you two really understand that the WA is really doing because you probably don't really understand the fights themselves because you didn't have to because the WA is doing the heavy lifting for you

[uncut terrace]

Some people certainly don't understand mechanics, but even when people do? it's not fast enough for people to react without it.

[crystal saffron]

On ff14 we have that kind of attack but it's on all 8 players and the boss area is pretty limited, so you need to squeez the AoE in this tight place

[analog scroll]

There are a lot of mechanics that get done with WA that could be done without but slightly less effectively.

[celest nest]

You missunderstand me, you don't understand what the WA do, because at no point you explained why it was needed

[crystal saffron]

The difficulty is different, it's less running in all direction an more trying to fit everything in cup

[uncut terrace]

It's needed to assign people to specific locations.

[crystal saffron]

Even if everyone start runniong in all direfction when it happen

[celest nest]

But why those exact specific locations ?

[uncut terrace]

because it's away from everyone else.

you can't overlap, you can't be in the raid.

[crystal saffron]

Some mechanics do in ff14, but we can put permanent marker on the ground to compensate, it give visual cue

[celest nest]

having 20 people running away from one another to avoid a bomb is not difficult and do not require a WA

[uncut terrace]

Having 5 people with bombs going into five different locations.

[celest nest]

ok, you really don't understand, this is not at all why WAs are needed

[celest nest]

still not a difficult thing to do

[uncut terrace]

how?

How is it not a difficult thing to do?

[crystal saffron]

Look where the other are running and run away from them?

[celest nest]

what's difficult, is that those 5 people need each to go to a specific location due to other information, like for example a debuff someone else has... and communicating who has which debuff is the problem the WA solves

[uncut terrace]

you start say in the middle, and it takes 4 seconds to reach the end point let's say.

[crystal saffron]

You cannot track debuffs easily in WoW?

[uncut terrace]

so you have a second grace period. Which is not enough time to course correct.

[celest nest]

yeah.. but that's not it, and that's what he is unable to convey... you have to go to a very specific location based on some other information that is hard to get...

[crystal saffron]

Oh some debuff that require you to go to a specific location?

[uncut terrace]

You don't know where other 4 people are going. You can indeed just book it into one location, but uhh.. two people picked the same one, now you die.

[crystal saffron]

there are some in ff14... In lower difficulty dungeon ^^'

[uncut terrace]

there's like no grace period to adjust.

[celest nest]

and the WA isn't even about being able to do the mechanice, mostly being able to do the mechanic fast enough so that you don't lose to many dps uptime and hit the enrage

[uncut terrace]

5 people get the same debuff, so it's not like you can tell if you get X, go to X.

if you have ideas how 5 people can solve where to go in a short amount of time, in very different places, well, I'm all ears.

[radiant pecan]

If it's just 2 people go to the same location = dead then it's a very basic mechanic ^^

[celest nest]

yeah, but with indirections,. it's not your debuff that tells you something, but debuffs from 5 other people, which are random, and those 6 people need to move somewhere together, but there's also 3 other groups needing to do the same thing, so each group need to find their "friends"... That's what the WAs usually do, easily convey information on screen that would otherwise require lots of communication

[radiant pecan]

There's no markers that you can place on the ground?

[analog scroll]

If we’re talking Jailer bombs you needed a WA because 6 bombs would go out on the raid and you had to get them to 6 specific locations, but not every player could reasonably make it to any given location. Also with the time allowed each player needed to start running to their specific spot within 2s of getting the bomb. If anyone failed to make it to their spot the raid died. If two people went to the same location they’d both die which is the same as a wipe.

[radiant pecan]

That are visible to everyone?

[uncut terrace]

say you have markers. Now, how do you make sure 5 people go into different places/

[celest nest]

I think you should play FF... really, you don't understand what the WA is doing, because you don't understand the mechanic

[uncut terrace]

???

I'm literally explaining the mechanic to you.

it arises from a limited fight area, and needing to be away from people for some range. The weakaura tells people the spot, so now, people don't go into the same place and kill each other.

[radiant pecan]

It assigns it to 5 different people randomly out of 20?

[celest nest]

No, you are explaining what you think the mechanic is, but you don't understand why it has to be done this way and what issue the WA solves... Because you only played in with the WA and you did what the WA told you to.

But did you understand why the WA told you to do it this way ?

[analog scroll]

Jailer bombs was 6/18

[uncut terrace]

5 people randomly out of 20. And you need to go into different places. Can't exactly adjust.

[crystal saffron]

The closest to each marker go to the marker

[celest nest]

jailer bomb is honestly no the fight where I'd say the WA is the most important, at least not if you only take the bomb mechanic.

[analog scroll]

That specific mechanic needed a WA because of the time allowed, if you gave double or triple the time you could have done it no WA

[uncut terrace]

yea WAs being needed or not is due to time alotted to solve a mechanic.

[analog scroll]

I mean the un-nerfed version was not possible without it. You would just wipe over and over.

[celest nest]

The problem with the Jailer was mostly that other mechanics in the fight required movement abilities and that you really hadn't the luxury of using them for the bombs, otherwise the mechanic would have been easy without WA

[analog scroll]

Still no because you’d have had people dead to going in the same hole all the time.

It would have been easier and probably something that you could have done eventually if movement wasn’t a limitation. Probably would never have been consistent though.

[uncut terrace]

yea it's about consistency too. Sure you can luck into people being into the right places once, but how many iterations would it take to do it twice/ thrice/etc.

and it's not like it's the only mechanic a boss does.

Ovinax of Neru'bar was also seen as a weakaura boss.

[celest nest]

I think fight were you need to lump people together because of having the same debuff, or the ones were each part of the raid see different information and you need to find the right add to kill from that are really better at explaining why WA are needed.

[uncut terrace]

8 people, 4 places, 2x on each place.

[celest nest]

Ovinax is a good example yes, because you'd have to do a split second decision impacting the whole raid

[uncut terrace]

The only reason weakauras are needed is because the communication required to solve it otherwise is unrealistic.

[celest nest]

And honestly, how many guild killed the jailer pre-nerf ? compared to how many guild still required the weakaura post nerf ?

Post nerf jailer wasn't exactly "easy", but it was perfectly doable without WA

Most people are honestly just bad at the game and the WA is a crutch for them

[analog scroll]

This actually tends to be on the easier side. It would only take 2 people to communicate with each other to convey the information.

Grouping similar debuffs is also not a task that trends to heavily use WA as you can typically have a limited number of locations for each debuff to move to and allow players to sort it. See Anduin or Rasageth.

[analog scroll]

It wasn’t possible to double bomb the same hole until after HoF, I’d have to go back and check but it was well after WF where it was safe to drop two bombs into the same spot.

[uncut terrace]

Sepulcher was also placed on a fire sale. Shortest tier, heaviest nerfs to bosses.

also hardest tier arguably.

Blizz decides bosses "must" die and they trivialize various boss mechanics so guilds on them can get a win.

[analog scroll]

Poor Halondrus 🦀

[uncut terrace]

they like 4xed the time people had to deal with bombs.

it's not deleting the mechanic but rendering it pretty irrelevant.

[analog scroll]

Went from like 8s to 30s iirc

[uncut terrace]

thought it was 15 to 60 but it's been... a while.

[crystal saffron]

Honestly i don't know what it's best between trivializing bosses or making them doable only with a GPS

[radiant pecan]

XD, it for sure seems like a GPS

[analog scroll]

The crab was a no WA boss

[crystal saffron]

Ah... Not the crab 🙁

[analog scroll]

He got super nerfed even though there weren’t really any WA for him, just world marker tech

[celest nest]

The real question is : Would the jailer have been easier with auto rotate ?

[analog scroll]

Probably not?

He was a chonkey boi, not a lot of quick movement from him

[crystal saffron]

That's why I present to you Auto Move!
Thats a joke don't hit me

[analog scroll]

Sire D might have been. Bro liked to teleport

The tank tech on that guy might have gone hard af, imagine just spamming your ability and insta turn to him before he could get you in the back.

Also the mirrors for the dps, yeah auto turn probably would have been good on that fight

[crystal saffron]

Why before? The auto rotate take place when you can cast a spell (so it follow the gcd cycle) and when it happen not before? Maybe I don't understand xD

[analog scroll]

When taunted he would port behind the new tank and you can taunt father than most of your abilities and taunt is off gcd

[crystal saffron]

Oh my bad before the hit you mean

[celest nest]

Denatrius was a boss with an ability that made him jump from one player to another and usually he would come back on the tank to a different position.

Tanks usually got hit in the back at that point if they weren't quick enough to turn

[crystal saffron]

Ok, if it's intended that the tank get backstabbed it should happen instantly with this setup, if not there is in fact a chance that it can trivialize this tech (if the GCD align corectly)

[west gulch]

No clue why this thread has this many messages.

I think WoW does it pretty clean. There, characters follow the target while channeling spells (Mind Flay for example), but nowhere else. I honestly dont think it's a big deal.

Its also only really an issue on melee characters., especially during big pull it's easy to lose track of your character. I think improving self highlighting would be better than just outright turning your character for you though.

Even if they added the option to auto rotate your character all the time, that sounds kind of dizzying. If your character auto rotates 180 degrees, either the camera moves as well which would make me queasy, or the camera doesn't follow the auto rotating character, and movement would be inverted lol. Imagine being in melee and your camera just constantly jumps all over the place.

Tl;dr I dont think an auto rotate feature would do much harm, but i also don't know why anyone would want to play with it

[edgy marlin]

I dont even understand why there is a thread about this anyway. Autorotation? Its not like this game has tons of mobs/bosses who just appears behind u. U also have a soundqueue for these ability u can listen to and turn your character by yourself. They did already a good job that cast dont interupt when mobs dissappear for a brief moment, like the Nightmare Cutthroats in Stormwatch.

I mean its not even like fellowship is super hard to learn and to play. Kinda funny to see that ppl ask for something like that, to be more lazy when playing.

[crystal saffron]

Not for lazyness it's for having less rigids fights, especially for melee combat

[uncut terrace]

rigid? lol.

DPS goes down due to mechanics, It's fine.

[crystal saffron]

Yes and?

[edgy marlin]

I dont see there any problem with that tbh. For me its just lazyness if u rly want a autorotate function in a game like this. Next person wants a autorotation button for his class, so he needs to press only one button for all his spells.

[crystal saffron]

Not related... Again...

[edgy marlin]

U talk about rigid fights, when there is nothing except one mob who dissappears from time to time and jumps behind the person he has aggro on.

If u rly think u need autorotation in this game. I can assure u, u are doing something wrong while playing.

There is no issue that u dont face your enemy and cant attack him.

I never heared of this nonsense once.

If u struggle to handle your camera by your own in cases like this, i dont know on with level of gameplay we are talking here. Sounds very harsh.

But seems like a human i asking for support to walk.

[crystal saffron]

For that i manly talk about the ability to move freely while fighting without having to yank the camera in enemy direction from time to time, or without having to crab walk

[crystal saffron]

Or not because rotation is not bothering me since I prefer caster and they cast 80% of their skilss with their back, i still don't know why xD

[crystal saffron]

Not on nonsense, it's used in other game. Maybe you are coming from more old school game like WoW?

[crystal saffron]

Well the support thing is not false, it can be use as an option for people who really struggle with camera (mainly because of physicial impairment), that's what accessibility is

[shut quail]

The only reason I could accept something like this is for accessibility. Some people don't have the physical means to quickly react and rotate towards the target when they blink... But that's guaranteed to be abused by people who don't actually need it, because it fundamentally lowers the skill ceiling of the game, and I don't think that's good for the perception of the game

[celest nest]

Which is it :

• it is not needed because that's not something that happens except in one or two very specific and irrelevant cases

• something that can be abused to lower the skill ceiling of the game?

Because it can't be both at the same time.

[uncut terrace]

it can absolutely be both.

This game can implement autoplay (some games just play on their own, no player input needed.)

Would you say it's "needed?" Definitely not.
Would you say it lowers the skill ceiling? definitely yes.

[celest nest]

Again you impress with your total inability to understand the point and your capacity to twist it beyond recognition. Great work

[uncut terrace]

The point is, player loses dps due to rotation. They don't want to lose dps, so they campaign for it.

This is not fundamentally different from other reasons that cause players to lose dps.

Maybe you're not as good as moving out of fire compared to other people, so maybe that should be automated.

That's all it is, someone does something else better, change game, so it's no longer a gap between two players.

[celest nest]

https://tenor.com/view/missthepoint-the-point-gif-7984004

[crystal saffron]

Player don't lose dps due to rotation, or maybe you don't play correctly?

[crystal saffron]

Still not relevent and out of subject, your pretty good at being dumb

[uncut terrace]

they absolutely do. Mob goes behind me, and I don't rotate fast enough, I lose dps.

[crystal saffron]

Skill issue

Maybe you do need auto rotate

[uncut terrace]

that's the entire reason you're campaigning so hard for this.

you abhor rotation detracting from your dps.

[crystal saffron]

Nope

[celest nest]

He knows better than you what you want, he's psychic 😆

[vast owl]

You could explain what you think the point is if apparently no one in this thread against this feature got it

[celest nest]

I have no idea what anyone beside myself is thinking... I am not the one going "that's the entire reason you want that, yada yada yada".

And about my earlier gif, I asked a kinda simple question in response to two statements that were made (one saying autorotating is not needed because the usecase is very limited and the other being affraid that it'll lower the skill ceiling) and our bunny friend started talking about autoplay 🤷‍♂️

[crystal saffron]

My point was clear from the start, it's mainly to improve fluidity in movement and attack (the video from ff14 show more or less the concept)
But the majority of people against don't care what my point is because it will "Casualize the game and bring the autoplay in it"

Because apparently rotating a camera is a basic skill to attack nowadays?

[vast owl]

Is manipulating the camera not a basic skill?

[crystal saffron]

Manipulating the camera to see? Yes, it's a 3d game
Manipulating the camera to attack? Not really, it's a vestige of older MMO

[vast owl]

You don't think keeping your enemies in front of your character's visual field is a basic skill?

Its not an accident that most spells dont work unless youre facing the enemy

[crystal saffron]

You can look to some other area (where you want to move for example) and since it's third person (and you can zoom out by a lot) you can still see ennemies even if the camera isn't rotated their way

[celest nest]

I finally understood... we are in the discord version of groundhog day. The same discussion keeps happening over and over again

[crystal saffron]

Actually most spells work if you're not facing, some work only if you face them

We tried and it's weird ^^'

[vast owl]

Not most spells

[vast owl]

We havent heard your stance on this i dont think

[crystal saffron]

Most spells... It's weird and I don't know why it's like that

[celest nest]

My stance is pretty clear. It doesn't matter at all. The game should do it's best to avoid unnecessary frustration and having a spell not launch because an enemy teleporred at the wrong time totally falls into this category.

And people pretending that it will lower the skill ceiling are just elitist gate keepers.

If your ego is so fragile that autorotating will affect it, I am sorry for you.

[vast owl]

Why do you all insist this is about ego lol
Its a basic skill to keep enemies in front of you just like it is to stay in range of them

[crystal saffron]

Also technically speaking if it lower a "base skill"... It should lower the skill ground not the skill ceiling?

[vast owl]

Its also frustrating when shit moves away from me or out of line of sight

[celest nest]

I cast a 3s spell, mob teleport after 2.9s, cast fails... where's the basic skill check I failed ?

[crystal saffron]

Maybe I'm wrong but enemies don't run away normally

[vast owl]

Thats not the kind of autorotating theyre asking for

See even you dont get what the thread is about

[celest nest]

Yeah, let's fix that also... los during the cast, launch the spell anyhow.

Out of range during the cast, launch the spell

[vast owl]

The thread is about hitting a keybind and having the game turn your character to face the enemy and cast the spell

[celest nest]

That's what I understood of what they are asking, rotation during the cast

[vast owl]

No its not, they clarified

[celest nest]

Honestly, I would be fine with that also

[vast owl]

Would you be fine with the game autowalking you in range or in LoS?

[celest nest]

I don't consider rotating my hero a meaningful expression of my skill 🤷‍♂️

[vast owl]

I dont consider staying in range a meaningful expression of skill either but i dont want it made automatic

[celest nest]

To a degree, yes.. if I am 20 yards too far, no, if it's a step, why not

[crystal saffron]

Well technically auto walk will mostly result in... Making people walk on fire xD

[celest nest]

I disagree, being able to stay at max range whenever possible was part of some boss strategies in wow

[vast owl]

Aren't quick reflexes part of strategies?

[celest nest]

Some games have auto rotating and they aren't worse or better as a result...

You come from wow I imagine, so it seems "wrong" to you, the same way the fact that this doesn't exists feel wrong to people coming from other games.

It's not a "right" or "wrong" feature, it's just what you are accustomed to.

[vast owl]

I dont like how cutthroats vanish and my target drops because of it, but its their mechanic
If the game automatically retargeted them for me that would be counter to their mechanic, why even have it in the first place

[celest nest]

I dont want to throw numbers around, but I can't imagine adding auto rotating having more than a 1% difference on overall dps... it's nothing in the grand scheme of things.

[celest nest]

If I am not mistaken, them vanishing do not stop a spell currently casting on them

[vast owl]

No but if hit my spell again after they've vanished the game doesnt automatically retarget them

[celest nest]

And it's a tank mechanic, not a dps mechanic

[vast owl]

Its their mechanic to have you find them yourself again

[vast owl]

They drop target regardless

[celest nest]

But wouldn't it be logical that any spell would be stoped when they vanish ?

[celest nest]

And in this case, automatic retarget wouldn't bother me either... still not a meaningful skill expression

[vast owl]

To you it might not be, its meaningful enough for some people to complain about it

To me as an elarion main i might value the game automatically shuffle me forward so im always in range

[uncut terrace]

you're aware your spell is going to fizzle if mobs teleports behind you after cast finishes? That's the autorotation they specifically want implemented.

Actually moving at all in this game is a bother. I should be able to hit everything from the start of the dungeon

give me unlimited range.

[celest nest]

Yeah, but I am pretty sure it's dependent on the game you are coming from...

Wow people dislike the idea, ff people are missing the feature 🤷‍♂️

[vast owl]

Sure

I dont think its getting implemented ever

[uncut terrace]

Maybe this game should have addons too? Weakauras specifically.

[celest nest]

Yeah, sure, this has nothing to do with this thread tho, you can create your own if you want to discuss that 👍

[celest nest]

Probably not in the near future for certain, and I doubt they'll do it ever as you say

[vast owl]

Maybe if they decide to implement click to move, this might make it in

[keen pike]

If Cutthroats dropping target is something that increases skill expression, would you then advocate for more of it? Should more mobs just flicker intermittently to drop target? Does this add something to the game?

I see autorotate as a friendly feature for when you introduce people unfamiliar with the genre/control scheme to the game. You want to limit it's effectiveness? Fine just give it a max turn rate so that turning 180 degrees takes a whole second or something.

It's a near meaningless change to make the game more accessible to casuals and people from other genres (and other entries in this genre apparently). No more abuseable than when a game has color settings for people with specific color blindness afflictions and people without that blindness use it because they find it more visually clear/distinct than the default color scheme.

[uncut terrace]

but see auto rotation isn't limited to that, as for if there should be more of it? Sure, why not? Variety is nice.

I see autorotate as a friendly feature for when you introduce people unfamiliar with the genre/control scheme to the game
This is so nonsensical.

do better.

It's like saying characters of the game should do stuff automatically because some people might be new. It's nonsense.

[vast owl]

This feature wasnt suggested as an accessibility thing

Ofc its not a problem if it comes down to accessibility

[uncut terrace]

it's not even an accessibility thing.... Like games are to be played, and some are at a disadvantage physically, so, is the solution to automate everything so that person is no longer at a disadvantage? (Then you get a movie.)

And now, let's say characters have auto rotation, so we have an accessibility function to move out of fire? People's reaction times can be slow.

What about moving into soaks?

The real "accessibility" is making the penalty for failure less punishing or giving people more time rather than automating anything people might find difficult.

[crystal saffron]

Again out of subject... We are still just talking of auto rotate, you're not very smart are you?

And if we're talking about automating things, how is it okay that melee auto target when they use a skill next to a target? How is it okay that you can press a skill before the GCD and the spell is automaticly launched at the second the GCD end?

You just can't think by yourself, you just think some things should be a precise way because it's the only thing you know

[celest nest]

That pretty much sums up any discussion I had with him... "the game I play does it this way so that's the only way"

[crystal saffron]

Seriously if the GCD thing don't existed some people would arg thats it's a skill to mash the skill button to get the right timing to launch the skill

[keen pike]

That's what contender/adept are for. Get hit by mechanics without really being punished for it.

Autorotate (and facing in general) are just kind of baked into the original formula, but don't really contribute much mechanically anymore. (I already addressed facing mechanics in my first comment on this thread some days ago)

Why do DPS have to face their targets (mostly) but healers don't?
We probably wouldn't advocate for adding facing limitations to healing.

In PvP I'm all for facing mechanics, but in purely PvE RPG game with target-based abilities it just feels like a tradition from the past.

We already have abilities that affect a cone in front of you, or a point-based AoE. Those already impose a kind of skill-check targeting. Frontal 180 degree arc facing on single-target abilities when you already have a target isn't really much of a mechanic.

[keen pike]

And I gotta say the repeated jumps back to "Auto rotate will lead to auto-move out of void zone mechanics" is way more nonsensical. That's the kind of argument I'd make if I was intentionally trying to mock people against auto rotate by making them seem ridiculous.

Like full on Spongebob AlTeRnAtInG cAsE mockery.

The slope isn't that slippery.

[uncut terrace]

should Vigour's cone just be a 30 yard aoe everywhere? What about the orb? an ever-expanding zone of light? The reason healers don't is due to poor targeting interfaces and there's a lot of targets that frequently move. Mobs are mostly stationary and move in predictable patterns.

Speaking of Vigour, I simply accept that I'm not going to heal everyone , and use it anyway.

[celest nest]

https://tenor.com/view/lion-king-hyenas-do-it-again-gif-11404445

[keen pike]

As I said, abilities that have inherent targeting schemes (frontal cone, PBAoE, frontal linear area, vector targeting) all force the skill check organically through that scheme. (Vigour included)

But abilities that simply apply to your current target directly are inconsistent about requiring facing and could probably afford to auto rotate where facing is demanded.

[strange light]

Could be a toggled feature but I feel it will hurt you as a player if you rely on it too much, especially on higher difficulties where every microsecond in reaction time counts. I'm not necessarily saying it doesn't have a place in Fellowship but I believe it's going to hurt the players more than it'll help them.

[uncut terrace]

facing is intended, else it would not be required.

[celest nest]

In which scenario did a miss rotation in a micro second lead to you not timing the key ?

Top 5 Helena is click casting his abilities, let's not pretend Fellowship require anything close to micro second reaction ffs

[strange light]

I wasn't even talking about timing keys, just the lethality of not moving in the correct way because you auto rotate to your target and the pressure it adds to the entire group.

[analog scroll]

Honestly the biggest downside for me personally in adding something like this, assuming it’s a toggle, is getting extremely disoriented watching a stream of someone with it on. Which is to say, there isn’t a downside.

If they make using this feature mandatory I’ll bust out the torches and pitchforks. Until then I don’t think it really matters. Assuming that this can’t be used to fully ignore important mechanics.

[uncut terrace]

In which scenario did a miss rotation in a micro second lead to you not timing the key ?

This is the justification invoked by others here of why it's so necessary lolol.

Their key bricked because they are too slow at rotating 😄

[vast owl]

Its a grey area tbqh, some spells are targeted and dont require facing

I think this is an inconsistency and that all targeted spells should require you look at the thing youre trynna blast to death

[crystal saffron]

You clearly are the one which is too slow at rotating for saying stupid thing like this xDD

[crystal saffron]

I could not agree more, it feel really weird to cast with your back ^^' (well except for the ground targetting which could become really unpractical)

[uncut terrace]

wonder if it's at least consistent in the sense that the source is from the sky (but happens to be targeted.)

what was once a reticle to place (thus not needing target restriction) became morphed into a targeted single target spell in its final form

[rocky stump]

So tldr OP wants FFXIVs Legacy Movement

I wouldn't mind Legacy Movement but I do still think you should manually face the target yourself. It's skill expression, even if minor. I saw OP say "it opens the door for more movement based mechanics if you enabled auto rotate" but thats also an argument against it, because it's higher skill expression to do movement mechanics whilst making sure you have full uptime

Uptime is earned not given for free imo

[uncut terrace]

I don't think lack of auto rotate places a limitation on how much people have to move. WOW doesn't have it, and the movement requirements can be extreme.

[rocky stump]

I agree with you.

It's just another layer tbh

[crystal saffron]

But do you try to hit the boss when you move? The "skill" that's is required to do that is just yanking the camera in one direction every GCD

[keen pike]

I gotta admit I full on think I got engagement baited into this thread.

I saw "hey can we have an auto rotate feature" and was like: Yeah sure, make it a toggle so it's not mandatory and do it whenever dev time permits.

But then I saw hundreds of comments and was vexed by how such a topic could be in any way controversial. It's such a minor thing with near zero impact, heck it's outright disadvantageous in some situations and generally unnatural feeling to those unaccustomed to it.

[celest nest]

Yeah but you don't understand, it hinders some people skill expression...

How will they show they are the best if they can't rotate perfectly ?

[crystal saffron]

Honestly, I don't understand the hate on the subject too ^^'
Also yeah it can kill you as a tank if it makes you follow a blink in your back

Anyway I don't even know why some people went on a crusade on the matter since devs don't even read the comments nor the reaction on the feedbacks xDD

And even if they did I don't think one of them is crazy enough to read more that 1600 comments xD

[celest nest]

The most unhinged threads are the ones about undo on the scrapper.

You'd have people argue for hours that if you scrapped something by mistake you're just too dumb to play the game

[uncut terrace]

it's on par with character automatically moving out of the fire.

But do you try to hit the boss when you move? The "skill" that's is required to do that is just yanking the camera in one direction every GCD
No? there's strafe....

and it's so niche, nearly inapplicable.

[uncut terrace]

it's because it's removing a basic element of skill expression since some people can't deal with the fact they are disadvantaged ever so slightly. It's nonsensical.

[celest nest]

Ma, look at me, I am the best at rotating my character in Fellowship

[uncut terrace]

look at me, i am the best at moving out of fire. No one would brag about that either, should we remove that too?

your argument is pathetic.

[keen pike]

Idk man auto rotate is like the "Click-to-move" option in WoW, or a useful feature for keyboard turners. It's not really for those of us who are used to the current control scheme. It's an option for those who like it

The skill expression trade off is:
Alright you don't gotta face your target, but you need to know when NOT to press a button an accidentally auto face the wrong target (backstabbers, madness/insanity mechanics).

Auto rotate isn't for me, but I've had enough instances where like a little cousin or a friend's kid or a girlfriend takes a passing interest in a game and I let em have at it. They don't have these intuitions about movement and facing so it's an option for them. At the same time I don't want to group everyone who would want this feature into some kind of "little kid or incompetent" bucket, so I simply acknowledge that other control schemes or genres where these kind of auto-rotations are default exist and say let em have it.

[vast owl]

Would people use autorotate if it was slow enough to affect your damage output?

[uncut terrace]

They would not.

[vast owl]

Lets say your character doesnt instantly whip around and start casting, it takes a second, just like WoW's one button rotation has increased GCD

[keen pike]

Yeah I addressed that directly, if there's a concern about it being unbalanced just cap their turn rate so making a 180 turn takes a full second

[vast owl]

We need one of the people for it to respond though

[uncut terrace]

if auto rotation is slower than people doing it manually, (but how do you even set that.) Then, it's fine. But like turning in Fellowship takes no time at all heh. It's going to be a feels bad with delay.

[keen pike]

Already with the Cutthroat backstabbers you need to react to their disappearance to avoid getting backstabbed. By the time they reappear it's basically too late, so auto rotate doesn't save you there

[uncut terrace]

healer problem. Take damage anway, just heal through it. Difference is, they're actually doing dps now.

them avoiding damage is not a possibility even without auto rotate.

[celest nest]

Why am I not surprised that you are a "healer problem" kind of player

[uncut terrace]

it's factual that many people just don't care to do mechanics because they don't kill.

[keen pike]

To totally derail the topic, I think more avoidable damage effects should change from "kills or near kills the idiot" (aka healer problem) to "disables/debuffs the idiot" so that it more directly impacts the DPS.

Like imagine you get hit by an avoidable mechanic and it just straight up drains 50% of your Spirit Ability, or puts a -30% damage debuff on you. Or pushes all your cooldowns back by like 12 seconds.

[uncut terrace]

WOW has those damage reduction effects, the result isn't that people do mechanics, the result is people keep wailing on the boss with 50% damage reduction as if nothing happened.

My haste is only decreased by 300%, whatever, I'll live.

[keen pike]

Good to know. I wonder how egregious it has to be for them to notice.

[uncut terrace]

People do notice, but it's not like they prioritize so that it doesn't happen again.

[keen pike]

How about just straight up banishes you to a shadow realm cube room where you're forced to sit in a chair facing the corner for like 30 seconds.

[celest nest]

I never thought about that, but that's a really good idea.

Make them "feel" they made a mistake

[uncut terrace]

WOW had incorporeal / Afflicted affixes and it's defaulted to healer/tank problem.

(if those ever go off, your dps plummets.)

[vast owl]

idk man, in any game i've played if youre dead you dont exactly do much damage

Oneshots, while being extremely punishing do make it abundantly obvious who f*cked up and how

[analog scroll]

If the snipers in sands can teach us anything, it’s that the dps still don’t care about this kind of thing.

[strange light]

That's actually a great point. If Auto-Rotate is added to the game, it might make people even more blind to these kinds of mechanics since they'll probably dont want to pay attention to the mob they're targetting in the first place(why else would you want the game to follow them for you).

[crystal saffron]

Funny you say that because there is a boss kinda like that in ff14 xD

[crystal saffron]

You don't? Well you are bad then xD

[uncut terrace]

do you not know what strafe is?

[celest nest]

Isn't that the new Crayon flavor?

[uncut terrace]

begone, troll.

[crystal saffron]

Say the guy who can't differentiate the auto rotation and moving automatically out of a fire puddle

Maybe you just don't have any real arguments? Or is it a brain issue?

[celest nest]

Discord discussion as a new method for detecting brain tumors

[uncut terrace]

gross misrepresentation, next.

[west gulch]

y'all is this topic really worth having 1.6k messages over. this is turning into the biggest early access feedback thread 😂

[keen pike]

https://tenor.com/view/get-rotated-get-rotated-idiot-rotate-rotation-shark-gif-24511062

[celest nest]

It became a sociological study.

People might write doctoral thesis about it in the future

[celest nest]

You know you dropped the ball when @rigid sail is clown emojying you instead of me

[rigid sail]

@celest nest I agree with you on this topic

I am an objective clown emoji user

[celest nest]

Best Christmas present 🫂

[rigid sail]

https://tenor.com/view/bunny-cleaning-cute-baby-gif-9815164473197347651

Real life image of bunny

[crystal saffron]

I have no idea xD
You want to join the fun ?

[rigid sail]

@celest nest did we just become best friends?

[celest nest]

Let's see what happens on new years eve and we'll go from there

[rigid sail]

[analog scroll]

He was already here like 1.4k messages ago

[celest nest]

Might want to do a summary on reddit for people too lazy to read everything

[rigid sail]

😂 😂 😂

Hey maaaa I am Reddit famous

[crystal saffron]

I lost the count of who wrote with the density of the conversation xD

[rigid sail]

I tried to scroll all the way up. Discord quit

This is like the help/harm macro thread but with a more useless topic lmao

[crystal saffron]

There is a macro thread?

[rigid sail]

Oh yeah

You should join in on that fun too

[crystal saffron]

But why, the dev already told there will be no macro, or am I wrong?

[rigid sail]

Who know why man… these people will ignore everything that was said and still advocate for their own useless ideas

[celest nest]

https://discord.com/channels/1254866410258038845/1452909927147245588

[rigid sail]

I tagged you in it

[crystal saffron]

Well I am not against macro it can be pretty easily nerfed by adding delay between inputs but i will not use it xDD

[rigid sail]

That’s the thing. I don’t think sylvie for example would ever benefit from macroing as it stands. When I only press 2 buttons lol

Other heroes also like this

[crystal saffron]

Yes xD
There are macros on FF14 but it's so slow that it's nearly never used

It's manly used for custom messages in chat sooo... Not really a useful system

[rigid sail]

Yup

People argue for it as if it’s going to be a game changer in combat settings

And compare this to wow as usual

Which are like apples to oranges

[crystal saffron]

Yeah I see one use that some people like, it's making 4 macro which first target a specific member of a group and then use a specific healing spell

Personally I don't like using that but I understand why some person like it

[crystal saffron]

Also making that is slower than targeting+casting manually in FF14

[rigid sail]

With sylvie all of her heals being a HoT and no casts I feel like this is completely useless with the mouse over healing comes out of the box. I am sure there are some niche uses

[crystal saffron]

Wait there is mouse over healing? Then why am I clicking my target to heal xDD

[uncut terrace]

cause you're a casual

arguing for auto-rotation

[crystal saffron]

Yeah quickly switching target without loosing GCD is easier than using mouse over, thank you for letting me know that Santa didn't bring you a brain this year

Also you are literally defending a QoL that is making the game easier by removing the need to retarget an enemy after a heal

What targeting is not a basic feature?

What next, your spells are launched automatically when you look at a targeted enemy?

[uncut terrace]

you don't know mouseover healing exists because you're a casual. Quit pretending that you aren't.

[crystal saffron]

No because I don't bother using it xD

[rigid sail]

And the wild bunny clown strikes again

[celest nest]

I am really not sure he can understand the beauty and irony of this statement

[crystal saffron]

Yeah I noticed and that makes me a little sad xD

[celest nest]

"Never argue with stupid people, they will drag you down to their level and then beat you with experience."

[rigid sail]

https://tenor.com/view/bunny-cute-run-quick-escape-gif-3465038

Bunny when he sees a logical argument

[celest nest]

Oh man, he blocked me, can't react to his posts anymore...

[uncut terrace]

players who can't form coherent argument here, and are unable to deal with disagreement. A study of FFXIV maybe?

[crystal saffron]

Same xD

[rigid sail]

He did the same to me hahaha

[crystal saffron]

You are literally describing yourself right now xDD

[radiant pecan]

Right now it's a study of toxic WoW players

Thankfully not all of them are, but oh boy

[uncut terrace]

Just a reminder, this is a discord with other people. Other people can come in and read the illogical positions you people hold. (Not that anyone really cares to.)

[rigid sail]

Bruh

I’d suggest stop now and don’t embarrass yourself any further

[celest nest]

How many people reacting to you with clown emoji does it take for you to understand you are the one with the intenable position ?

[crystal saffron]

Yeah @rigid sail did that... And sided with his arch nemesis against you xD

[rigid sail]

Damn right. I even unblocked him because I saw what a real unreasonable person looks like. It’s you, not him xD

[uncut terrace]

lmao. it means you resort to that in addition to your other tactics.

despicable.

[rigid sail]

There are no tactics here buddy… this isn’t a conspiracy… you’re simply wrong and clowning

[crystal saffron]

Well using arguments and calling your brain don't work xD

[uncut terrace]

@rigid sail unable to deal with people liking timers
@celest nest @crystal saffron @radiant pecan unable to deal with disagreements.

[rigid sail]

Lmao

[celest nest]

I mean, you can be against auto rotating, i am not even sure I am 100% in favor myself.

But your whole rant about a slippery slope and saying it's the same as auto avoiding fire and most of everything you said is just pure hallucinations

[crystal saffron]

Here 3 messages, i'm listening

Whats the difference with aito rotation

Show us your intelligence

[radiant pecan]

Your only argument is "Let's agree to disagree, I'm too stupid to arg for real"

[rigid sail]

Or there lack of

[radiant pecan]

You don't even write real arguments

You invent things that have nothing to do with the subject

[celest nest]

You got it backwards, sylvie-enjoyer was on your side against me on the timer discussion

[crystal saffron]

I literally used the same type of "arguments" you use against that

[rigid sail]

I am sorry for every clown emoji you got from me. I see now who the real clown is

[crystal saffron]

Maybe the real friendship is the clowns you put along the way

[celest nest]

I was trolling hard tbf... but only because I knew bunny was immune to logic already... I probably deserved most clown emojis

[radiant pecan]

XD

[crystal saffron]

Well you were right

[rigid sail]

Immune to logic is normal when you have room temp iq

[celest nest]

Fahrenheit or Celsius ?

[radiant pecan]

Btw he blocked me too lol

[crystal saffron]

Celcius is harsh

[rigid sail]

Fahrenheit he is not smart enough to understand Celsius

[rigid sail]

Join the club :))) bunny victims

[celest nest]

But closer to the truth ?

[radiant pecan]

Btw @crystal saffron is a fellow Sylvie enjoyer too

[crystal saffron]

Technically with 20 IQ your most likely to be a vegetable

[celest nest]

We might all get timed out for hate speech against bunnies if he calls the moderators on us

[rigid sail]

Rage against the bunny

https://tenor.com/view/rage-against-the-machine-fuck-you-gif-9049554

[crystal saffron]

Why, bunnies are cute 🙁
Dumb but in a cute way?

[celest nest]

At least a vegetable is useful

[crystal saffron]

Not my grandma!

[rigid sail]

Yeah don’t insult my 🍆 like that 💀 💀

Ooooo that emoji might be my new clown emoji?!

[crystal saffron]

Yeah and I think butterflies should be autonomous and heal without having to do anything

[rigid sail]

Bunny is the new clown?

[rigid sail]

Butterflies are independent

They shouldn’t wait for us to tell them who to heal

[radiant pecan]

Yeah they have their own minds

[celest nest]

Auto rotating butterflies ?

[rigid sail]

And I am sorry… they’re fluttereffinfies

[crystal saffron]

I don't even know if you have to watch the target to move butterflies xD

[rigid sail]

Cue the Hell’s Kitchen episode. Butterflies can speak for themselves they know who they are

[radiant pecan]

Apparently not

From what I've heard

[crystal saffron]

Then why people are complaining for auto rotation if it already exist but in a cursed way for 75% spells? XD

[radiant pecan]

They think it's broken

[celest nest]

You can definitely cast flutterflies and bluey without looking at the target. You have to have LoS tho

[radiant pecan]

When in reality characters don't get fixed even tho 90% of spells of Ardeos can be cast without looking

And no one complained about it before we discovered it

[crystal saffron]

If you all haven't tried ardeos can canonically shoot fire with his butt since nearly all his spell don't require looking at the target but require a line of sight? I don't even know why at this point

[rigid sail]

Only thing I know about ardeos is his finger snapping

And that’s because I have ptsd hearing that

[radiant pecan]

Only his "basic damage spell" and the interrupt need to be facing

The filler damage spell

[rigid sail]

So what exactly that started the argument. I am genuinely confused

[radiant pecan]

The DoTs and all ground zones are non facing required

[radiant pecan]

People being like: "Duh, you're too bad you can't even rotate your camera"

[crystal saffron]

Honestly since i main Sylvie i'm not even arguing for myself xD

[rigid sail]

What legendary are you running ?

[celest nest]

I don't want to reread the whole thing, but wasn't it just bunny that was dead set against it and all other people were like "it doesn't affect me so why not" ?

[crystal saffron]

Yeah more or less

There was timso tv at the start but he stopped "arguing" quickly and then came mariosis but not sure of his position with the last conversations

[celest nest]

Mariosis was open to discussion, not sure were we left it at, but at least he had arguments ...

And yeah Timso was really elitist about the whole thing

[rigid sail]

Honestly I don’t think I’d use it if it was a feature in the game. But it doesn’t matter because I wouldn’t be using it. lol as long as it doesn’t affect the way I play. Then it’s fine

Simple as that

I’d be kinda upset if they were to change it and make it mandatory

[celest nest]

That would be a d*ck move tbh

[crystal saffron]

Honestly it's on melee that it show it's potential, on a range caster it's not that much of a difference

Also I retried it on FF14 and it don't follow the enemy during the cast

[rigid sail]

Yeah but the thing is, since I consider myself a “good” player, even this was mandatorily changed I’d find a way to still be a good player lol so either way doesn’t matter to me

[crystal saffron]

It just rotate at the start of it

[rigid sail]

Adapting to changes is part of being good at anything

[rigid sail]

So like a cast would follow the target right?

[crystal saffron]

If the target move behind you during the cast, since it's not auto rotating, it cancel the cast

But you can still rotate manually

[rigid sail]

Right now it does. With this feature it would turn your character towards that target right?

Oh I see

[crystal saffron]

They did a good in between with that

It only auto rotate each time you use a skill

Not permanently, it would be weird

[rigid sail]

Yeah see I’d enjoy turning my character manually. Because it’s more manual which means I have more autonomy but I can also see how it can be useful

[crystal saffron]

I am accustomed with keeping my right click down too, but it's so natural with auto rotate when moving around a target and attacking it

[rigid sail]

I am trying to think if I have this issue while I use my weapon cast ability with sylvie but I can’t remember

[crystal saffron]

Did you watch the tiny video? It shows my point

[rigid sail]

No where is that?

[crystal saffron]

It's linked on the head of the thread

[rigid sail]

Don’t make me scroll up please

Lmao

[rigid sail]

This gets me everytime

[crystal saffron]

#1451714878149623898 message

I precise that Oda used only targeted spell

[keen pike]

Links are cheating I put my GIF as a blocker so that no one would be able to get past it. Already worked on @rigid sail

[crystal saffron]

The animations are just very flashy on FF14

[rigid sail]

Anyway I am going to try to play the game instead of auto rotating on the couch

[crystal saffron]

What character are you playing?

[rigid sail]

Sylvie

Trying to get to e30s

[celest nest]

Shocked Pikachu meme

[west gulch]

lord have mercy

[uncut terrace]

We're going to hit the programming limits at some point.

Can there be a 100k post thread? well, we'll find out..

[rigid sail]

🐰

[vast owl]

We're crashing this discord thread

[celest nest]

https://tenor.com/view/sam-and-max-sam-%26-max-spin-cooking-ropes-gif-1071221902317337263

[rigid sail]

🤡

[rigid sail]

https://tenor.com/view/bunny-rabbit-vibe-bobbing-head-gif-15858971824312258135

[uneven river]

I'm not reading all that, and I don't know if it's mentioned yet. But one thing that I'd say makes auto-turning kind of lame is that it would effectively make it impossible to make 'turn away' mechanics. Or at least they'd be very weird to play with auto-turning. I would always suggest devs don't lock themselves out of more possibilities to create encounters. Auto-turning, in my opinion, does that.

[keen pike]

Been addressed. Auto turn wouldn't be "auto face my target at all times" it would be "upon pressing an ability with requires facing, turn to face my target" so it doesn't negate the 'turn away' mechanic space.

[uneven river]

I still imagine it being extremely wonky

[crystal saffron]

It don't deter the facing away mechanics in ff14 but I agree it can be wonky for some persons ^^

[rigid sail]

TLDR was that we all agreed it wasn’t necessary and it’s okay as long as it’s a toggle to switch on and off. I personally wouldn’t use it but for some casuals it might be an ok feature