#Fellowship sustainable business model idea

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

willow tapir
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Currently the game feels stagnated because people are losing the purpose to push unless the dev team release some new material.
Such business model of building new content to attract users to play for X hours is not very sustainable. The marginal cost of scaling hours people playing the game is not as sustainable.
Therefore, I proposed a new one like following:

  1. For each eternal level a player unlocked, grant an additional talent point. Maybe even allow people to unlock one more leggo equipping slot every 50 level or what so ever
  2. Allow players to use money to buy re-rolling materials and etc to modify/reroll their gears.

With such proposal, the game's playability becomes so much higher without needing to actively develop any new content.
You guys will be more financially more incenticed to spend time to make the game more playable or more good talent/leggo alternatives to consider for different dungeons/build.

spice wolf
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The model is a simple seasonal game model, big content patches with resets to bring people back and attract new people->release purchasable cosmetic bundles with those resets

sand sparrow
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I was hoping he means gold and not real money 😅

willow tapir
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I mean real money should be able to buy something like mithrels, so people are given the option not having to farm

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Not surprised that someone will think this is pay to win, while some people think it is not

pastel ridge
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Getting advantace by real money is definition of p2w mate

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And farm shouldnt take place at all because

spice wolf
heady rain
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Wow, this is a terrible idea

glad wigeon
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In game store is coming to purchase skins and mounts. Worked for league 👍

Also Hamish teased the idea of a sylvie plush. That alone will make them a fortune 500 company

soft bolt
rugged elbow
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I mean, it's not pay to win, it's pay to get material to win... there's an additional step ArdeosSMIRK

quasi adder
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can we please all just pretend this post was never made and swear to not talk about it

rugged elbow
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What's the second rule of this post ?

willow tapir
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A little bit surprised that so many people think allowing money to buy materials to reroll gear means pay to win.
Currently above eternal 30, everyone’s gear is pretty much the same.
I beta Yoda is better than me just because he has so much better gear than me lol 😂.

rugged elbow
glad wigeon
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Being able to buy materials to save time is literally what made the mobile gaming market as toxic as it is

willow tapir
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Only if you think gear matters for the game

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While I don’t think gear matters much

glad wigeon
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Why farm dungeons for a week if I could just buy my way to bis for a measly $3k?

willow tapir
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Really depends on the level you are at the game

glad wigeon
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The current new currency system will work fine from the next season reset, because people will accrue much more marks on the way to eternal again. Economy is just bad because it started bad. Make cool mounts and skins for mtx but still release some cool ones to obtain without paying and we're golden

willow tapir
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It is like league of legends, you can use money to buy champion to play or you can use your time to play and buy the champion

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Essentially this depends on your point of view that whether “gear” is an important edge for gameplay or not

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Or hopefully when everyone gets better/perfect gear, then they will realize learning the gaming mechanics and teamwork is true edge of playing this game 🤷🏻‍♂️

rugged elbow
quasi adder
rugged elbow
willow tapir
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Out of curiosity, what is you guys' dungeon rating while you think "gear" will help you win the game in a significant manner?

glad wigeon
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You can easily get to spider without 330, but people wanting to push 50-70 or use different weapons are stuck waiting for mats

willow tapir
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Also, there is lack of motivation for people to push higher than even just 40.
Therefore, I suggested to give the character ONE ADDTIONAL TALENT POINT every 10 levels of eternal.

When you have more talent points to min-max, you will need to re-roll your gear potentially

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Just surprised everyone just got sooo caught up by "money"

rugged elbow
glad wigeon
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8 extra talent points for top end would be so wild 🤣

willow tapir
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so good!! And I bet they will be so eager to tryign to get the 9th and 10th talent points.
At least I will really want to push my ass off to get my next talent point and start min-maxing and getting my next.

Think about getting all the 3 point talents and etc

glad wigeon
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It's ok to not have rewards for the highest players besides bragging and recognition, like that's all they want. Don't need to incentivize playing the game for casuals to want to do +70 sands

willow tapir
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lol, surely it will be convenient for you to say it is okay for them

glad wigeon
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Just need a difficulty squish so top end caps out at like 20-30 instead of 80+

willow tapir
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And the talent point change is not enough for the high end players. It is for players at every end of the game

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instead of grinding for gear, a proof that you have spent time.
Grind for talent points, a proof of meritocracy -- you are good!!

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Then when you try carrying your new comer friend and people inspect you.
They asked, "oh wow! How did you get so much more talent points"

glad wigeon
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This truly is one of the takes of all time

willow tapir
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Or "how come your dmg is exponentially higher than mine?"

rugged elbow
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This thread is really getting wild...

I think I want to propose increasing mount speed every 5 eternal level.

This way my newcomer friend could go "how come you are able to clip through wall with your hyperspeed ?"

willow tapir
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mount speed maybe is good but maybe not "powerful" enough.
I was even thinking about one more legendary slot, which opens more room for min-maxing --- more playabiility of the game

quasi adder
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You know, this thread is actually giving me a lot of hope

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Because no matter what happens

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The devs will always be smarter than this guy

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There is nothing the devs could do, not even by accident, that would be worse than what this guy could do

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It's actually nice that he's just a voice we will all forget soon

rugged elbow
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Maybe, once you hit eternal 100, you could start dropping stuff with 2 gem socket.

And you would grind to get each piece with 2 empowered socket.

This would increase game retention exponentially

glad wigeon
rugged elbow
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At level 150, you'd start dropping void gems. In their initial state they would have no powers. But they could "eat" your other gems, reducing your gems cap. And when doing so they'd gain 40% of the power the gem had.

Eating a gem would be a 10% chance each time you kill a boss.

willow tapir
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Something like that, too many ideas can be there.
The key is to make the game more playable after people get to 330 and farm up their gear, while consuming minimum amount of dev time to create new content

rugged elbow
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At Eternal level 200, you could start to multi class your hero, for exemple, Helena could multi class as vigour and gain circle of healing. After that, each 10 level, you'd gain a new talent point that could only be used in your secondary talent tree

willow tapir
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The multi class or 2nd gem slot thing can be a bit hard to balance... But if they have enough dev power, sure

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The reason why I suggest more talent points is because it cost almost zero dev work

glad wigeon
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The whole point of pushing high end is that you have removed every variable besides skill

willow tapir
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everyone gets the same amount of talent points once they get to the same level

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why people are okay with champion player have more talent points than adepts ones but not okay with higher eternal players with more talent points?

glad wigeon
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If you look at the feedback no one is enjoying how far spread talent points are, if anything they should be finished earlier

rugged elbow
willow tapir
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Hmm I can see that because that is some kinda not necessary gate for your end game

glad wigeon
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Have you ever heard of the term "Azerite power" before? Can you look it up to see why people don't like the idea of being rewarded with power indefinitely?

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This is getting a little off topic now 🍿

quasi adder
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The game is balanced around talent points. Even 1 additional talent point would completely wreck the games balance lol.

rugged elbow
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Azurite power was effectively capped at some point in contrast to gaining a talent point every x level

quasi adder
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Some classes could only put that point into a random defensive, nothing super useful. But for other classes, that one talent point would unlock completely new builds that would completely break the game.

rugged elbow
glad wigeon
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The whole concept of a talent tree is that it's a choice based decision and not just a check box of shopping

rugged elbow
glad wigeon
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Glad you can't get extra masteries in league just because someone is plat but you're stuck in gold

spice wolf
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Guys i think we should be able to buy extra talent points

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Thoughts?

rugged elbow
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Is it considered pay 2 win ? at what level are you currently playing ? would you say a talent point matters to the end game ?

pastel ridge
pine cedar
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Play better to win,
Pay to look good playing!

spice wolf
rugged elbow
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Ok, great... and it won't require a lot of dev time, what's not to like ?

tardy veldt
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Your plan is much worse than I thought. My plan is to switch to free-to-play games, and then charge for new heroes.

spice wolf
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Thats what literally just killed last epoch and they didnt even implement it, they just announced it

glad wigeon
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I hate to say it, but heroes with the reward track of unlocking power and cosmetics is kind of similar to just like a battle pass

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But paying for heroes would be an awful move

gloomy oak
tardy veldt
rugged elbow
bronze ether
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I think this is ragebait - not everyone should be allowed to make threads under this section

tardy veldt
rugged elbow
soft bolt
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Remember,

Never debate someone whose position depends on you taking them seriously

To entertain the ramblings of an idiot is to legitimize them 😘

simple moon
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I agree that the game feels stagnant. I have pushed 3 characters to eternal since release and I haven't opened the game in over a week now. I'm still waiting for the devs to give Sylvie an overcharge for her RL ability before I log back in.. so maybe never again at that rate.
The gem grind and the gear grind for +35% socket bonuses is part of this games version of end game content and it is, like you said, not sustainable.
One solution is to inject a pay to win structure, but at that point I would uninstall the game and I'm sure many others would also. Yet, pay to win games do generate revenue. So, I guess it depends on the goals of the devs.
Getting really overpowered though, sounds awesome! Equipping all my legendaries, getting all my talents in the talent tree, full bis gear/gems/weapon.. that would be awesome! And there's no real reason not to allow it! The other part of this games end game content is the eternal push and it's eternal.. meaning however overpowered you are, eventually, the damage taken/dps requirements from dungeon scaling will still be more than you can manage as a group. But at least I'm full bis!!!
The fun thing about eternally scaling dungeons, is that there is room to make characters really overpowered and let the players see how far they can push the game.

glad wigeon
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It's ok to be finished with the content, especially in early access preseason 1, especially especially for a one time purchase. Take a month off and get excited for whatever new updates come with reset 👍

simple moon
# glad wigeon It's ok to be finished with the content, especially in early access preseason 1,...

I know.. but there is a metric called player retention that is vital to the longevity of a game. By the time the devs release more content, players are invested in other games, lowering the chance they will come back. In addition, a full wipe of progression provides nothing for a player to return to.
Imagine wiping hundreds of thousands of hours of player progression and expecting them to be excited for new updates.

glad wigeon
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Works for Poe and Diablo

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The other way to be devil's advocate is would people be happier with limited closed tests for another year, just getting access to the game in short spurts? Or would people be happier with open early access while they work on the (not yet completed) game in the mean time?

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I get that early access is a meme because it's been abused so much by literally every company, but CR is actually using early access the way it is intended to be used, and now everyone is complaining about it

simple moon
glad wigeon
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If people are even passively interested in Fellowship, then I'm sure they'll see news about "new patch look at all this content" one way or another. Yeah advertising helps but the info will get spread around one way or another

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More budget helps ofc

simple moon
# glad wigeon I get that early access is a meme because it's been abused so much by literally ...

I like early access and using it to discover shortcomings in the game is absolutely how it should be used. Realistically though, what content could they add that would change the game enough for players to want to return and redo the ardous grind all over again? Firstly, they have to cut the grind.. at least by 50%. If they don't do that, nothing else matters. Second, they have to implement a system that drives a non-elitest social dynamic. I don't know what that is, but it's something that players in the end game and new players both enjoy together. They can ask AI.

glad wigeon
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Really all we need is to squish the difficulty, limit power from gems, give alts a better catch-up and make the grind less arduous through in-game resources (eg like 20 marks to add an essence boost socket with current system)

simple moon
glad wigeon
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Yeah, but gems as a system give way too much power compared to any other system

simple moon
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Then buff other systems

glad wigeon
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Full bis shouldn't be "just take whatever as long as it's essence boost"

glad wigeon
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All good options though, curious which ones CR decide to go with

simple moon
rugged elbow
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Yes and no...

The issue is that stats are basically irrelevent in comparison to sockets, especially empowered socket.

A paragon item with a socket bonus will be beter than a 330 item with your BiS stats... that's an issue

glad wigeon
simple moon
glad wigeon
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Honestly I'd prefer the gem system to be more like: squish the gems tree to like 5 traits per color (just take the main trait ideas) but limit equipable sockets to like 8 pieces. One gem gives one color trait

So at max you could go like 5/3 and each node is an impactful choice

quasi adder
# glad wigeon I get that early access is a meme because it's been abused so much by literally ...

I think this is the point I have to disagree with, I don't think they are using early access the way it's intended.

It very much feels like they are treating Early Access as if the game has already launched. They are being really stubborn with a lot of issues that are being pointed out in these channels, and are instead releasing all these events (Halloween and now the Holiday event) which I would have never expected from Early Access.

At least I would expect early access to really focus on making the core game the best it can be. No random holiday events, not a million balance changes, but really experimenting with the games core systems. I feel like the game today, even after 2 months, is still very similar to what we had when Early Access launched. The development feels really stiff, when Early Access should be the time during which the game should be the most pliable and adapt to the communities feedback.

I've also noticed that developer communication in these feedback threads has gone down quite a bit. During the playtests we had a lot of communication, developers were chatting with us. The current Sylvie Legendary? One of the devs was literally in the chat with us and designed that legendary in real time, showing us iterations of it and asking for feedback. I was there when that legendary was created. Now the games development feels a lot more corporate and less like it's being done in tandem with the community, which makes me feel really sad.

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Don't get me wrong, I don't mind them adding events or making balance changes. But it feels kind of out of place when there is a lot of radio silence on a lot of issues presented in the feedback channels.

rugged elbow
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Oh, I didn't now about such a close relationship with the devs... that's both reconforting and sad at the same time

glad wigeon
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You're not wrong, but it is getting much more attention than other early access stuff

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Room for improvement for sure though

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Beta was much more transparent

rugged elbow
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Hamish was again doing off hand jokes on the geneal chat today, and he basically said that they were working on multi-queues... but it was said in such a manner that I am not sure it's what he wants or what the dev team is doing

glad wigeon
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Radio silence on anything vigour related since EA launch

cold gust
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i know this is pointing at christmas+ but i suppose people have been taking holidays in nov and dec - at least this is generally the case from my own work

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that will definitely impact development in a small indie team

glad wigeon
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Due to no dev feedback on these suggestions channels it's turned into the same like 50 people circle jerking the rage baiters

glad wigeon
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Hastily made but something like this as an example

cold gust
glad wigeon
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Small company, not targeting high high end, EA, yadda yadda I get it, but like also I don't get it

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I also really really want fellowship to succeed, so all I can really do is pop into all the threads and give my 2 cents. Fellowship scratches that itch I've had for years man

rugged elbow
# glad wigeon

To be fair, buffed drop rate are difficult to assess as a player. Especially since we don't have any kind of data collecting tool.

glad wigeon
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If the amount of threads was lower I might believe something happened, but there's still so many people talking about not seeing essence boosted gear, and anecdotally not really seeing much myself

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One guy in vigour chat got full essence boost at 400 hours, not to mention he got his Lego cape (bis) at 400 hour mark as well

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Rng is rng, but the math ain't mathing

rugged elbow
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since usually a population of 30 is considered the bare minimum for statistic significance, but prefer 100 people for meaningful results, not sure even 20 threads on a discord are a proof of anything, especially for things like drop rate 😛

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I mean, there's lots of topic where CR can be found at fault, but I tend to believe them when they are saying they buffed drop rate, not really any reasons to lie about that.

glad wigeon
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You're not wrong, just going off of what I see

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But this thread is about pay to win, so how about a 7 day pass that doubles essence boost and gem drop rate for $5

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Now we're cooking

quasi adder
# rugged elbow since usually a population of 30 is considered the bare minimum for statistic si...

Small correction, that's not quite how it works. The sample size needed depends on the desired degree of confidence required. The smaller the drop rate, the more precise the answer has to be, so you need a larger sample size to get any statistical significance.

Figuring out whether a drop rate is between 40-60% is a much larger confidence interval, so even a small sample size can get you to a pretty high degree of confidence the result is within that range. But when we are talking about legendary drop chance for example, which from my estimates is <5%, probably <3%, actually figuring it out would need quite the sample size.

For example, to reach 99% confidence to a degree of +-1%, you'd need a sample size of around 16,588 dungeon runs to reach that for the drop rate of something. Obviously if you only need to be say 90% confident then a smaller sample size of around 6,765 is needed. Theoretically, if a large enough community of people would log every single dungeon run and what dropped for them at the end, then reaching that degree of confidence in things like empowered essence bonus drop rate or legendary drop rate is definitely doable.

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Or, crazy idea, the devs could just tell us what they coded LOL

serene crest
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This post is so Korean mmo coded it hurts. I inquire for OP to check the performance of any given Korean mmo ported to the West (esp the ones that kept their monetization models) and reconsider their stance.

gloomy oak
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Let this post die

rugged elbow
silver iris
celest narwhal
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😄 this post 😄

"Pls CR DESTROY THIS GAME. Make it p2w. This could be the best idea i had"

😄

glad wigeon