Changing the gearing progress logical in Eternal

[supple sable]

Scaling bonuses sounds awful. Having to refarm gear every 10 Eternals. I wouldn't even bother trying for anything below 20

[rain orbit]

I think you might go to 330 before pushing past 30, then try to go all the way to 41 and just replacing items as you go

and then there's a complete grind at 41

sounds miserable

[wind remnant]

yup definitely, I don't want that

[rain orbit]

I think it's a good idea to reward higher tiers, but making them drop gear that is strictly better is not the way

[supple sable]

Better drop chance is what you want. Not better gear

[stiff bone]

You dont need to unlock the new league to farm their gear tho

The capstones are objectively easier than next leagues dungeons

And they give next tier up gear

[thin scroll]

I mean I did the tuzari2/sailor10 strat and then it was a freeroad into eternal 30+. I don't think it's a good thing for the game to be able to farm all your Best in Slot items in a lvl 2 difficulty dungeon, there are no big reward to unlock in term of new gears when you succefully push eternal, it definitely lack of better rewards on higher level

[thin scroll]

Yes but you still need to clear a new 3 boss dungeon in a +7 difficulty of your league to get them

If the first leagues had the same logical as Eternal, you would be able to farm Paragon gear in green lvl +2 dungeons. That what we do currently in Eternal and it sounds really weird

[stiff bone]

Eternal is a different game entirely i think

You have set gear limits

The higher you go is a function of your ability, not your gear

[thin scroll]

Not when you can unlock +30/40 without any difficulties by farming tuzari 2 before that. That literally what everyone is doing right now, you just need to check what are 70% of eternal LFgroup messages and how people are mostly grinding this game.

But I mean, if people prefer "achieve" a +30/40 Eternal without any difficulties because they are so overpowered by getting Best in slot items/Max ilvl/gems/max weapons trait in very low difficulty dungeon, then I agree to disagree because I think Eternal should be difficult in every stage. Right now it's way harder to first try champ/paragon +7 than griding to unlock a free +30 eternal and I don't think it's a good thing for the game in the long run

[tawdry flame]

but then, like Kyle said, the fix isnt to make gear scale infinitely, it's to make it worth people's time to farm at higher difficulty

[thin scroll]

I never said infinite gearing, I'm more saying obtain your best in slot progressively by being able to get better gears on higher difficulties and not being able to get all on lvl 2 difficulty.

I mean, it's litteraly the logical in league and the logical on most games. you don't get your best in slot by farming the first monster you meet in the game. But in eternal yes

[wind remnant]

then you'll farm in 40 before trying 70

it's just moving it

[tawdry flame]

my point stays the same, just make it more efficient to do higher difficulty. Because people would still get their "bis" higher and then realise they dont have the money and farm twozari to sell stuff

(also having to refarm bis forever does seem boring, but yeah)

[modest bridge]

I just don't agree with Each 10 Levels, Set bonus of items become a bit better

Everyone should be able to get max gear relatively early

[thin scroll]

Agree to disagree with you guys.

If the game was "standard gears, no farm, try your best to push high" it would be perfectly fine to me

But again, the part here who answer are certainly the people who tryhard tuzari2/sailor10 and are okay with that because most of people who don't do that must have stop the grinding way before that because of the lack of endgame goal for your character. That would explain a lot the 43k -> 8k steamchart, the late game isn't enough promising and everybody can have the best character without any difficulty.

You want people to unlock a +50+/+60/+70/+80 because they can obtain a wonderfull thing after, or you're gonna stay with the low % of player who just want to grind everday like cryve do on live, and the % of people who like that is very low if there are nothing to get at the end

The whole gaming industry know that

[wind remnant]

I'd rather delete eternal gear (stopping at parangon then) than your idea

[tawdry flame]

M+ vibe is to push until you can't/don't want anymore; it's really cool if people just wanna unlock rewards and then go play other games until the next season
While people who enjoy the push keep pushing

Most people are complaining atm about the grind and how long is it to get your true bis (35% sockets included) and your post goes into an even worse version of what it is, so I'm not sure how it's better

[thin scroll]

The idea is to have both, because a lot of player need a bigger carrot than pushing their skill limit, like in every games. It's like "let's have our best in slot gear on the first wow quest, anyway the goal is to clear the mythic raid at the end anyway". Try to do that on other games and people would leave, like they do in this one

[thin scroll]

Yep you need to rethink it, because the best way to get it is boring as hell in a too easy content

[tawdry flame]

People aren't going CE to get their bis items though

They're doing it for the challenge first

[thin scroll]

Np np, the whole "get your best item in the lower difficulty dungeon make 100% sense and don't offer any bigger carrot in the lategame is 100% the best thing"

every games got lategame reward

like

everygames

the whole gaming industry know how to keep players

but lets do the opposite because few guys want to keep farming tuzari 2 100 times a day to get best in slot

good for me.

[tawdry flame]

In some cases to push higher in m+
It's the same in wow, past 10, you don't get better gear and you push first for mount them for glory
Arguably add things to make acquiring bis easier at higher level but changing the power of gear then means you'd have to farm every 10 levels and that it really not any less boring

[thin scroll]

The whole gaming industry is wrong, no problem ❤️

[tawdry flame]

Make it MORE EFFICIENT as higher levels,but changing the gear power means people are gonna stop and farm like they did in tuzari but every 10 levels

[tawdry flame]

Your reading comprehension is the problem

You think you're rewarding players by forcing them to farm more, it's not a reward, it's more grind

[thin scroll]

Welcome in MMORPG / every farming games, unlock better reward when you reach better content. but NP, the whole gaming industry is wrong, the best way to put a carrot and keep player motivate is to focus only on putting them in tuzari2 and hope everyone want the same thing : pushing his skill limit without any other motivation.

I can have better gear than Cryve without going out of tuzari2, best idea.

[thin scroll]

and yes of course, because it's boring, nobody complain on how it's made in league content

[tawdry flame]

Absolutely no one is saying that, but your suggestion doesn't change that at all. People will farm tuzari, then sailors 10-20-30 or wherever they get their best gear on their level is. It creates infinite scaling gear which is NOT THE POINT
Unless you now arbitrarily decides that "it stops at 50" and then you could make the same exact point past 50

leagues have a finite amount of level + you could farm in whatever level it wouldn't change a thing so idk what your point is xd

(capstone excepted)

[thin scroll]

Np enderah, you and people who like to farm tuzari 2 everyday will love the game to stay like this. Quickplay is broken for new player and no endgame content carrot for lategame, I will not be surprise about how the game is gonna evolve in the chart, and it will be obvious

[tawdry flame]

You could argue that they should keep.doing what they do with increase chances at 35% sockets at higher level (currently x3 for 10+ and x5 in 20+)
Add some bigger gems to make farm faster in 50+
Add currency to improve the essence of items in higher ilvl and it would makes sense

But saying "ah you gotta farm your gear forever now" is dumb

[tawdry flame]

Ok I can tell you're reading the messages, cya

[thin scroll]

yes yes I'm dumb, I can't read, you're perfect ❤️

Keep it that way, the whole gaming industry is wrong.

[blazing urchin]

NGL part of the fun to a game to me is earning gear while progressing so people who farm a certain level constantly to improve just to powerhouse through the next 20 some eternal levels feels weird. I'm sure they feel the same way about my play style, but it's how they want to play their game. The issue is the majority of people wanna do it so the opportunity to just play the game without grinding "gems" or "bis" in an abyssal or tuzari feels challenging sometimes. I'm unsure of how to fix it, but none the less eternals don't offer anything other then bragging rights so meh.

[tawdry flame]

Ngl I'm plainly against the twozari stupid farm as most people are, I just don't want it to be a "grind every x level" xD

[blazing urchin]

The grind is purely their choice.

[tawdry flame]

It's a choice indeed, but if you wanna be in the top players it's the "rational" one kinda

no one went in there because it was fun, but rather because it was the fastest way to get to pushing without interruption

[thin scroll]

Yes, like it is in league. The feeling isn't "hardcore grindy" and you're so happy to get new colors of new gears and then new weapons skills and then weapon traits and then gems build... the logical is very well made

But then, when you arg with people to just build something like this but for lategame content, people are against it lol

They need to keep the difficulty higher and higher in Eternal and rethink the gearing logical so we can't unlock everythings in the first dungeon. For that you just need to adjust the balance between : gear possibilities at this stage VS difficulty. and everytime the difficulty become higher, even if you get all the items of the difficulty stages.

Or you assume that you don't care about gearing in eternal and you put standard character and tell people to have fun, but how it is right now is a middle no sense choice

and when you think it about pure carrot for players, how it is done now is the worst choice, you want people to want a legendary only accessible later or anything good like this, that how you motivate people, because they want to do this build with this particular items. But no, better get them in champ and use them in eternal I guess

Right now people grind tuzari 2 and do eternal +35 more easily than champ +7 ^^'

[blazing urchin]

Yeah, my only thought is everyone wants to min/max everything in the game so they have to make a "cap" on what they want. There's no true fix to fixing the single dungeom spam stuff without reducing the "fun" players have. I'm a grindy gamer but don't like doing that single dungeon spam so even the thought of saying things like "You can't upgrade your gear to 2/6 until you clear Eternal 10, 3/6 is unlocked at Eternal 15, 4/6 at eternal 20..." or so on and so forth or even just limiting it to not being able upgrade your gear at all all sounds FUN to me. That being said, I'd bet the people who agree with that concept is every one on my friendslist, haha. At the end of the day I do feel your original opinion on the eternal gearing thing; I just don't think the common player base generally cares about that.
People wanna feel like their gods and they don't mind sacrificing "progress" to get there.
Hard thing to fight.

[wind remnant]

Adding more gear will just move the issue higher

[blazing urchin]

I do agree with spitfire, the issue will kind of always manifest at a certain point. People will always minmax and find a way to spam something.

[thin scroll]

yes there are plenty of way to do it, but the first thing to be ok with is that the gearing progress logical in eternal is very bad. My title is way more important than my few examples, I'm not a game designer myself to think about all, but I'm a gamer for 35 years now and I can tell that there are a big problem on how they manage their lategame content and gearing progress.

What spitfire is saying is not an issue, you just need to find the good balance between gearing possibility and difficulty. and whatever the player does, it need to be more difficult when you push. right now it's harder to do paragon+7/champ +7 than a +30/+40 by spamming tuzari for 10 hours straight.

And people on this discord aren't the best audience to judge this kind of concept because most of them are litteraly the guys who are looking for sailor10/tuzari 2 with 330ilvl DPS in 70% of LFT post. This post is made for all the player that are not here because they left for the lack of good ideas in Eternal

[plucky cargo]

Just remove the spam... make drops deterministic... bam, problem solved ...

Or introduce some currency as a bad luck protection.

[thin scroll]

Yes, ton of possiblities, but the actual way is terrible and I'm surprise to see people here like @tawdry flame to defend a concept like this, because it's gonna kill the game very fast

[plucky cargo]

Discord is telling me that your original post has been deleted, so I am not sure what your point was.

But ilvl increase need to stop at some point, otherwise it'll always be about overgearing content and never about skill.

And since some dungeon or level will drop the "best ilvl at the lowest difficulty " this particular dungeon will become the one that gets farmed.

Adding ilvl, or gear, or loots solves nothing.

[thin scroll]

I deleted it because people focussed more on my examples ideas to fix it other than debating on the actual problem

[plucky cargo]

From what I can tell, she's not defending the current system, she's telling you your idea is bad and don't fix anything, and I agree

Gearing is not the issue, gems and socket are... even your title is "wrong"

[thin scroll]

Your opinion on that, you can have it, I disagree strongly with it. Most people in every games are attract about new items/legendaries, you don't bait people into a lategame content with a better gem system in a terrible gearing progress logical

[plucky cargo]

It's not an "opinion", it's a provable fact.

You need to stop giving people better gear at some point. otherwise there is no stop, no point in progression were skill start to matter.

Currently, the best way to get gear is Tuzari 2. Let's say higher difficulties give better gear, up until Eternal 40. Now Eternal 40 is the "new tuzari 2" and people will start farming that.

And if you don't put a limit on gear ilvl, people will just increase difficulty continuously, and the game is not fun anymore, because it's just about who has the more time to play, not skill.

[plucky cargo]

And regarding your whole shtick about the whole gaming industry, I can't think of a single game who has infinite scaling but doesn't limit gear ilvl at some point... But happy to hear an example from you.

[thin scroll]

Not if you balance the difficulty to be high whatever the gear you get on a certain difficulty, like I said

[stiff bone]

you can disallow the same dungeon to be played consecutively and that would do something to discourage the grind

[thin scroll]

Like, nobody spoke about infinite scaling lol

[plucky cargo]

which will make the whole thing even worse... now you have to grind, but you can't even grind the most effective way... time gating people is never the answer to anything.

[thin scroll]

People are actually min-max everythings beforte start and can to it in a lvl 2 difficulty dungeon

this is stupid, not having things progressively and keep difficulty higher anyway

[plucky cargo]

So what is your proposition ? what difficulty should stop giving better gear ?

[stiff bone]

nobody has to grind

they do it because they want to, so if they want to they better suck it up and play double the dungeons

who knows, maybe even triple

[thin scroll]

You calculate that generally with an avaerage time of the lategame content you want people to be involve in it, considering the lenght for your seasonal system. when you have all those data, you can answer your question

[plucky cargo]

if you want to be first on the leaderboard, you will need to grind... and if you don't, someone else will and you won't be first.
(I am talking about the current system, systems without grind can exist, but they bring other issues...)

I don't have to grind, because I don't care being first, but if you care, you have to

[plucky cargo]

ok, so let's say your mathematical analysis gives you Eternal 40... now you have people farming Eternal 40... you solved nothing, you just moved the issues to later in the end game.

[stiff bone]

no one who is top 100 even on the leaderboard cares about this

[plucky cargo]

Sorry, I don't understand what you wrote

[stiff bone]

the people at the top of the leaderboard dont care and will grind regardless

but if you want to stop people from asking for full sets and gems and 330 to get into baby eternal levels, you just make it harder to grind

[thin scroll]

No because with the same amount of gear, some people are gonna push it very more than others of course. but nobody are gonna reach +40 without any difficulty because they got all best in slot in a lvl 2 difficulty dungeon. +40 is gonna be hard to get, you will have better gears only if you're clearing it and then only people with skills and motivation can push high.

If this system offer to people a difficult grinding and gearing experience until +40/+50 and then only the god player keep pusing, that totally fine because it's a seasonnal game. but right now it's a no sense system without any progress logical

[plucky cargo]

regardless of what ?

of course they will grind, because they want to challenge themselves and be at the top.

[stiff bone]

the top of the leaderboard are their own group in their own bubble
they dont pug and they dont set super high requirements for their runs so that everyone else also has to grind for the gear

[plucky cargo]

what does it matter if it's hard to get to ?

People that will get to 40 will grind that level to get their BiS and then go further.

And people not being able to get to 40 with their current stuff, will grind 30 to get their BiS at that level and then go to 40, and start grinding again.

You didn't solved the issue, you made it worse.

[thin scroll]

But don't expect this game to stay popular if the path is "fun league with new dungeon into nosense grinding in a lvl 2 dungeon"

[thin scroll]

If you don't understand what is the matter if the lategame content is harder, I can't answer you much more my friend

[plucky cargo]

The group at the top grinds to get higher on the leaderboard.

The people below grind because they can't pass the difficulty there at and they want to have better gear to get higher on the leaderboard.

Everybody grind to get higher on the leaderboard.

Nobody "has to", but it does feel bad to be stuck not because of lack of skill, but because of (perceived) lack of stuff.

Once you have you're full BiS gear and gems and you cannot pass a difficulty, you can tell yourself you are at your skill cap. Until then, it feels bad and that's why people grind.

Making the grind harder won't stop people from grinding, it will frustrate them even more.

[plucky cargo]

Yeah, because like with the other that tried to explain to you that your solution is not a solution but just the same thing or even worse, you ressort to "I cannot explain to you"...

What you propose do not work, because you are proposing exactly the same thing that already exists, just at a level that seems innaccessible to you... but it's the exact same system that already exists.

[thin scroll]

No problem, if you don't understand the importance of giving goal/big reward by achieving something harder instead of giving all for free in a 0 difficulty content, you maybe didn't get how the whole industry work to keep their player. and it's true in the range of MMORPG into mobile game, everyone in the industry understand that

[plucky cargo]

You can give rewards, I agree with that part.

But those rewards cannot be better stuff, because ft the reward is better stuff, you just enable people to do higher difficulties.

[plucky cargo]

However, you need to stop giving rewards at some point, and the industry does exactly that, because if you have infinite rewards, people get frustrated because they are unable to get said rewards.

Can you give me a single game that has infinite scaling and rewards all the way ?

I cannot think of one... the closest I can think of is the WoW title for the top 0.1% at the end of the season, which Fellowship also has in form of trims

[thin scroll]

It's currently only WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY WAY better stuff with 0 difficulty and I'm speaking of slightly better stuff with bigger difficulty whatever the available gear you got

I don't see what you don't understand

cause nobody is speaking about infinite scaling

like, nobody

[plucky cargo]

if the higher difficulty gives better stuff, people will farm the higher difficulty... honestly, i don't know how to say it otherwise so that you understand.

People are farming tuzari because every dungeon in eternal gives the same ilvl, and it's the quickest.... If anyhting else was giving a slightly better gear, everyone will be farming this other dungeon.

[thin scroll]

But not a single game offer you your best gears legendary best in slot full min max on the first stage

maybe you don't get the important point

maybe I don't write it well

so please focus on that

[plucky cargo]

Tuzari is not "the first stage", that's what you see... If you frame it differently, Tuzari is the "last stage that gives you an ilvl boost"

[plucky cargo]

I did, and I answered you... if Ransack 40 (if it exists) gave the best loot, everyone would farm Ransack 40

you are not solving the issue, you are moving the issue to another difficulty

and make life for everyone worse, because Ransack 40 isn't doable in 5mn

If there is loot to be gained, people will farm that loot

Currently people are farming Tuzari 2, because it's the fastest way to get the best possible loot.

If you put the best loot anyhwere else, they will farm that.

[thin scroll]

• You unlock more gear only available in certain difficulty instead of having all unlockable on the first dungeon
• But whatever gear you can unlock on your current difficulty, the next diffuclty is gonna become harder anyway because of the scaling logical
• This system continue to a point in which most people would have tryhard in eternal for an average decent time of the season.
• then only, you don't drop any better gear, and people need to push without it

So in conclusion :

• the next difficulty stay harder whatever gear you did unlock on the current difficulty
• your gearing progress is more logical and players got a carrot because they want to access to this legendary that offer this incredible build or this level of gem that unlock their perfect build idea
• you don't offer an infinite scaling because at some point you stop the gearing progression but you already made people push in higher and higher difficulty during a good time of the season. then 1500 players who actually still continu the very lategame content can keep pushing and other people wait for the next season

[plucky cargo]

I understand what your "issue" is, but I think you don't understand the cause of it and thus cannot clearly see why what you are proposing is exactly the same.

[plucky cargo]

You are describing Tuzari 2 ...

except you cannot see it

[thin scroll]

Then you just can't udnerstand, that fine 🙂

have a nice day sir

🫡

[plucky cargo]

"then only, you don't drop any better gear, and people need to push without it" ... This is Tuzari 2... the point were you don't drop any better gear anymore...

Your issue is that it is "too soon" in the progression...

What you fail to see, is that if this "threshold" is Tuzari 50 instead of Tuzari 2, people will start farming Tuzari 50 like they are doing now, and someone will come and complain exactly like you do.

You aren't proposing a better progression for gearing, you are basically saying that the progression is "too quick" and that dungeon should be buffed

[plucky cargo]

You too ! even if it's night here 😛

[plucky cargo]

And to speak about something I know, the only reason in WoW for which people do not farm level 10 keys to get loot is because the best loot is heavily time gated behind the weekly vault.

You cannot drop your BiS gear in dungeons in WoW. There are two way to get your best possible gear :

• Mythic raid, which you can do only once per week
• Great vault, for which you can only do 10 dungeons per week to "populate it".

The fact that you can farm gear in Fellowship makes it way better in my opinion.

The issue that Fellowship has however, is that you need to get gems, which is already a PITA, but then you also need to get your stuff with empowered sockets, and that's why people are farming Tuzari 2, to get this elusive piece of gear with an empowered socket.

Remove this notion of empowered socket, or make them buyable through a currency, and suddenly, nobody farms Tuzari 2 anymore.

You grossly misunderstood the issue you were trying to raise in my opinion, and this is why you are unable to understand our answers to your post.

Remove the whole gem system, people will farm for 2 days to get their BiS, and then they'll be only pushing dungeons

[stiff bone]

the gem and empowered socket system is atrocious yea

did we learn nothing from titanforging back in legion

[plucky cargo]

They told they were working on it to make it better, fingers crossed

[tawdry flame]

tbh the point is not "preventing the grind", any "best" player will find the most optimal way to use their time. be it twozari or 37 of this specific keys with those affixes
But there's a need to have incentive to farm close to the highest you can time (or at least the in the same tens). which they started to do with the essence having more drop chance in 10-20+ for instance. but could be explored further/add currencies at the higher levels (so at some point if you "deserve" it you just... GET YOUR ITEMS, lucky or not)

[supple sable]

nothing before eternal is a grind at all, its just progression

[wind remnant]

cool, the talk is about eternal