#Make eternal scaling steeper but less ranks

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analog lagoon
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When soloqueue eternal gets implemented I think the currenz eternal ranks Are too many.

You have eternal 1~50 Right now. If I am at eternal Rank 43 for example its really hard to find three other people at the Same Rank and I dont always have time or fun boosting someone else up to my Rank and then they leave.

Furthermore I am at eternal Rank 27 Right now and I honestly dont notice a difference between eternal 5 or 15 for example.

Tldr condense eternal ranks a Bit maybe e30 should be the top end.

analog lagoon
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To the downvoters you think this game has a big enough playerbase to sustain 50 ranks of eternal in soloqueue? 😄

final garden
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Right now it's AFAIK 3% more damage/health per level
Raising this to 5% would reduce eternal 50 down to 30

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In addition, the current scaling modifier should be shown on top of the dungeon selection

signal cliff
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but yeah also think it should be more to reduce the levels and it should be displayed as you said

final garden
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That's why the AFAIK
I do not like hidden values that needs to be datamined or written down by players - this should be clearly stated and visible in-game where it's relevant. (like % attribute scaling for abilities, eternal scaling...)
I would even love to see this scaling stated clearly for contenter/adapt/champion/paragon league

waxen garden
rapid nymph
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also, making less keys will just mean you will be stuck on lower keys for longer with a bigger skill diff in the same key. To me doesn't really solve the problem.

analog lagoon
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But You dont do anything different Right now in discord lfg??? You just manuelly pick people and Hope they Are competent.

Obviously Solo queue should be Score based but the difference is just too big.

rapid nymph
# analog lagoon But You dont do anything different Right now in discord lfg??? You just manuelly...

if there are few people queuing u just take the closest to your number, would work the same. The question is how do you guarantee PROGRESSION through solo queue? Do you go on the highest key or rating or gear etc.

And yes, the reason why it's better than discord is because it's in-game. The friction of having to use discord is very bad. Having an in-game LFG tool is not as horrible and elitist as you might think

analog lagoon
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LFG Tool would kill this game for me because then You have Situation Like wow where You Play fotm or You Are bench and rerolling in fellowship Takes ages

rapid nymph
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people who tajke the game seriously wont solo q, and only solo q will kill the game for me if its not efficient

analog lagoon
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But I am Not casual but i enjoy maybe off Meta

swift sinew
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The current scaling is nice in that is allows a lot more granularity for people to find their limits, and it can also gives a much better feeling of advancement. Progressing from 1 to 50 is just going to feel like more than going from 1 to 30.

If you can't tell much of a difference between E5 and E27 I am shocked. Ther should be a noticeable difference in the amount of damage the mobs are doing. I'd also expect you to notice the amount of time the bosses and packs live to be different. Now if you did those ranks while gearing then the difference will be less noticeable, or if you were just a tank that was overgeared then, due to the way tank gear scaling works in this game, I'm not at all surprised you don't notice the damage you're taking changing. I'm not strictly married to the current scaling but I very much disliked when WoW decided to up the scaling between levels to squish the range at which people were playing.

As for the solo queue issue, even if you've unlocked E27 chances are that you can still get score from running quite a few different dungeons at lower than E27. You don't need 3 other people at exactly the same rank you just need people around your score.

rapid nymph
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So your stance is either or? because only solo q might kill the game as well

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what if im looking for a specific dungeon to push and I dont have a steady team?

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do i just keep queuing and hope?

analog lagoon
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Then you can just play world of Warcraft at this Point at least you can reroll classes faster there 😄

rapid nymph
# analog lagoon Then you can just play world of Warcraft at this Point at least you can reroll c...

this is very unbased and a biased comment. I come from wow both m+ and mythic raiding and I enjoy this game because of the mechanics. What you are saying right now is you want to force everyone into a solo q meta where nothing matters and you pray to push. Why is it so bad to have both explain? If you want to play off meta then do that in solo q, and dont force your opinions on others?

What are the negatives of having both?

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also i never said I only play meta, and there are top groups that don't. I'm speaking about controlled groups and playing what you want to play. I hate the random dungeon system up to paragon as well, as many do.

swift sinew
# rapid nymph this is very unbased and a biased comment. I come from wow both m+ and mythic ra...

I can explain this though I don't particularly agree.

If you include both solo queue and LFG then using LFG will be the only way to play. Solo queue will not see use or will be way less use, because it will be seen as inferior for progression (because it is). This will result is a much worse experience if you use the solo queue just pushing more people into going LFG.

Splitting the queues like this generally isn't a great solution. It's the same reason that you can't queue specific stuff in the regular leagues.

The bit I don't agree with is we need to cater the game to people who only want to solo queue for their progression.

rapid nymph
# swift sinew I can explain this though I don't particularly agree. If you include both solo...

I think there are 2 lanes here and why it would work

Lane 1. Soloq Farming. I often log into my tank and just cba finding a group on discord on my 255 ilvl shit tank. So i don't progress it. I would use soloq to get some gear in order to be ready for real keys. Maybe push up to 10-20

Lane 2. LFG Tool. I don't want to go through extreme random queues and random players to find some random dungeon that maybe will grant me something. If that were my only option I would quit today. The LFG Tool is what I would use when not farming, and perhaps while farming as well if I'm geared enough tbh.

What happens without lane 1. Elitism, wow problems, etc. Can't get to a level where I'm LFG Tool acceptable
What happens without lane 2. No comp scene. No real pushing. No player agency.

To me both are the only solution, just cant see how it would be otherwise?

analog lagoon
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Funny for me lfg would Kill the game and soloqueue would be best.

rapid nymph
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Also want to add, if you allow group queuing you kinda have to allow lfg tool

rapid nymph
analog lagoon
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Why soloqueue works with groups Till eternal

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Obviously you can group as 4 Stack just Like in the low leagues or 3 stacks or whatever

rapid nymph
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thats my main point, sure solo q for farming gear and power. but it just wont work if you want to play the game above eternal 30 and actually have fun

analog lagoon
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I mean I would use solo or duoqueue to Push I dont understand whats the problem

rapid nymph
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yeah i dont disagree you can. but why not then allow lfg tool? if people do it anyway on discord

analog lagoon
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Bc Not everyone is Like me and then everyone is in lfg Tool and making no elarion groups for example

rapid nymph
analog lagoon
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And You force lfg onto us because you want to cherry pick your players

rapid nymph
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its not forcing if its already available in many formats lol

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just making it easier

signal cliff
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ngl if they put wow lfg i'd rather just go back to wow

I really think creating a queue for eternal is a nightmare (reason it's still not here) but the game selling point was "hop in and play" not spend 1 hour actively looking for a group

analog lagoon
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I also Want to press queue me up and then watch twitch etc. untill the queue pops

rapid nymph
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Hop on and play will be fun for a while, but if there is no real sense of competition then the game will be boring for me as well. So idk, don't feel lfg tool is forcing as it is still available in plenty of ways. And will be even more ways

analog lagoon
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Soloqueue can be competitive

rapid nymph
# analog lagoon Soloqueue can be competitive

In almost any game they have both. And in all of those games people team up outside of in-game lfg tools. Just an extra annoying step for those players. Limiting people to elitist guilds and communities instead of allowing a free space. Not my fault that wow has so many shit classes and bad balancing: i dont think this will be the case for fellowship

analog lagoon
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Look I am resil 19 rn in wow and I dont wish this System from wow onto anyone

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You Apply manuelly to groups the whole day and You Never know if you can play

rapid nymph
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dont see exactly how one limits the other to the degree that its unusable

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have wow tried m+ queues? no, so we dont know tbh

analog lagoon
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This game is Not big enough for Both sadly

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I dont want this score/class gatekeeping in this game

rapid nymph
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there already is

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i get kicked from a ton of groups for being double mara for example

analog lagoon
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Yea bc no soloqueue 😄

rapid nymph
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you dont think ppl will leave dungeon 1 sec into it if its double mara?

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double tariq?

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low score tank?

analog lagoon
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Leaver penalty they should add of course to

rapid nymph
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50 minute q as dps?

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how do i queue? specific dungeon? specific level?

signal cliff
analog lagoon
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Wow has more than 50 Minute queue 🤣

rapid nymph
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at least you get to choose what u do then

analog lagoon
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Day/week Queues

rapid nymph
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and thats not farm thats only pushing

analog lagoon
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You dont do anything in wow lfg 🤣

rapid nymph
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just saying if im sitting in a 50 minute random dugneon queue and then get forced to play something i dont with players i dont want to play with whats the point?

analog lagoon
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But why you dont want to Play with those players

rapid nymph
rapid nymph
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how do u q, what dungeon, what level?

analog lagoon
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Rating should obviously be around the same a

rapid nymph
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u dont think there will be long queues because of that?

analog lagoon
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You just queue Like the leagues but instead of gear score decides the Dungeons and teammates

rapid nymph
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So i'm forced to prog the same dungeon over and over for no score because of a system that picks randomly?

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how do u guarantee progression? it's not league bc its not pvp, there isnt mmr

swift sinew
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You don't

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But this was supposed to be about adjusting scaling, not solo queue vs. LFG 🙂

analog lagoon
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If you time a Dungeon you get Score and increase the bracket whats the issue?

rapid nymph
rapid nymph
analog lagoon
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You cant then you do it again

rapid nymph
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and thats awful

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alright ggs, good discussion

swift sinew
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Everyone really loves the league experience of queuing up, seeing the dungeons, and then someone leaves cuz they didn't get the one they wanted 🙂

analog lagoon
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I dont mind it but if it is that Hard for You

analog lagoon
rapid nymph
analog lagoon
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If this evolves into lfg elitist gatekeep Clown Fiesta I Go back to wow bc You Need to be able to reroll Chars on the fly and you cant in this game

rapid nymph
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you can find a +5 in solo q wow and go and have fun no?

analog lagoon
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I have no problem with that I Play for the fun

rapid nymph
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without rewards

rapid nymph
analog lagoon
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I dont have fun in low keys but I do Plenty 18s or 17s in wow

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For no score no Gear

rapid nymph
analog lagoon
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Yea dopamine is the only thing that counts in games nowadays

signal cliff
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the main point of the topic was to reduce the number of levels in eternal by having a bigger scaling anyway, that discussion is off topic

rapid nymph
swift sinew
signal cliff
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you extended it, it wasn't the point

swift sinew
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Also should solo queue and LFG exist are not related to the scaling.

rapid nymph
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well in any case, seems like i pushed some buttons and people kept discussing. maybe our discussion was a bigger point than the intended topic. Anyways, good discussion! hopefully the devs cook up something good

analog lagoon
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Yea lets keep it at that we just have to See what the devs have in mind. Maybe they have the best Solution for all

agile jungle
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stoneskin dungeons, Stormwatch and most capstones have way extra wiggle room. Wraithtide +31 is easier than most dungeons between 15-25

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godfall is generally pretty tight and will basically never offer the ability to recover from a wipe past like +10, everdawn and stormwatch can recover from multiple in the 20s

swift sinew
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You're speaking of routing and timing, I was mostly talking about how much damage it feels like you're taking as a tank. There's a pretty narrow band where as a tank it will feel like your survivable is being challenged without it feeling like you're almost dead constantly. Out side of that narrow window you'll either feel like nothing in the dungeon can reasonably hurt you or like you're perma floor pov.

agile jungle
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i'm factoring that in, i can do the same pulls all the way up to the 30s in those dungeons

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aside from shadowlord route splitting

swift sinew
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Sure but the amount of damage you feel you're taking will only change towards the end of that. But you probably don't really notice if a 10 is doing more to you than a 5.

agile jungle
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the entire bound in which I don't notice the difference in damage is the same difficulty

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charitably, there are 3

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"makes me sweat", "must excerise some caution", and "yolo"

swift sinew
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I mean it's not though, it's only at at given gear level that happens. Which is what I'm saying. If your grear stays in the "must use some caution" as you're progressing then as a tank you're not going to feel like a 5 is very different from a 27, but it is. And if you're max geared you're not going to feel like a 5 and a 10 are very differnet but if you're in 240 just out of paragon you're going to notice that.

agile jungle
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what i'm saying is that if you deleted (as an example) the +6, +12, +18, +24 and +30 versions of a dungeon

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people wouldn't notice the size of the gap between 3 and 9, 9 and 15, etc

swift sinew
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You would, if you're at the appropriate gear levels for those dungeons.

agile jungle
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maybe between 21 and 27. otherwise, absolutely not. It's not even until the 15 that it hits meaningfully harder than drakheim

swift sinew
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The % scaling does not change as you go up, if you have less gear the point where you start to notice will be at a lower level.

agile jungle
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the baseline we're starting from is low enough that it takes a very long time for the % scaling to feel meaty, even at level appropriate (270-300) gear

swift sinew
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240 is the start of eternal 🤷

agile jungle
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sailors abyss 10/20 speed farms are a great example of how little damage the content does

agile jungle
swift sinew
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A sailors 20 has a lot more hp and does a lot more damage than the 10

agile jungle
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about 30% more of each, right? which doesn't even come close to being lethal at 300 with decent play, right?

swift sinew
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I have watched more than once seen someone get 1 tapped in the 20 at 330

agile jungle
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which means that we probably don't need 8 sailors abysses before they start hitting hard

swift sinew
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Not everyone is at 330?

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Having more granularity at the top end is good, that top end is going to be different for different skill levels and gear levels.

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There's no need to squish everyone into a smaller range just for the sake of the range being smaller.

agile jungle
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granularity splits queues. do you know how much of the time spent in 20s and 30s lfg is people at (for example) 23 and 27 not being able to party with each other

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because the latter would have to spend an hour helping the former before even getting a chance at rating

swift sinew
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That's just so untrue.

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The only way that is actaully the case is if the guy at 27 has every single dungeon timed on 24 or higher.

agile jungle
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There's a bunch of tiers in the 20s where there's one good choice and 2-3 "probably not a 1 shot" choices

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which means getting back to where you want asap is retreading

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and doing anything else is gaining like 40 rating, but not pushing

swift sinew
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If you want score you can get it running a 23, you don't have to do a 27, so no need to only take the most optimal way to get to 27

agile jungle
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once you're at 10,001, you can't get a useful amount of score helping people

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and 10k score happens at around +20

swift sinew
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1 key level is worth about the same amount no matter where you do it at

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Which I don't actually like but that is how it works right now

agile jungle
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the marginal value of a key level is higher when you have star map goals to hit

afterwards, it's hitting .5% (which is like, high-30s requirement) and 1% (which i'm not sure of the requirement offhand)

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I think it would probably help if there were tangible rewards (even if it was just like, 4 small gems) for hitting increments after 10k

swift sinew
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The score value for going from a 23 to a 25 is the same as going from a 27 to a 29, roughly.

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There's maybe a 1-2 point difference

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heck going from a 1 to a 3 is the same point value as going from 27 to 29 with maybe an extra 2-3 points for the higher keys

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We can reduce the range if we want but a smaller range isn't just automatically better, if you just want a small range you could just have the scaling be 12 or 15% per level and have the eternal range be only 1-15 or so.

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As it stands now you can't run every dungeon on every level, even if you wanted to run them as often at possible you'll still always get a 6-9% increase in the scaling for the adventures and 12% for capstones, I'm not sure that really needs to be made more extreme.

agile jungle
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Right, but if the goal is hitting a flat number, the points are always useful

But if the goal is hitting a moving target, every number above 10k rating and below .5% competition are almost identical.

Its nice if your personal goal is 12k but you also shouldn't expect people to actively spend time progging intermediary keys with weird mods

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For a non reward tier

swift sinew
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If you want to make your score go up, how is getting an extra 30 score from doing a 27 better than getting 30 score from a 23?

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If you want to be in the top 0.5% or 1% you need more score yes?

agile jungle
pulsar garnet
agile jungle
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Whereas if you need a tier 12 godfall, 6 and 8 are equally useless

swift sinew
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what's top 0.5% rn?

agile jungle
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For Helena (my main) its a mix of mid 30s thru low 40s

swift sinew
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number

agile jungle
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Not online, probably somewhere around 13k?

swift sinew
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How do you even check what it is in game?

swift sinew
agile jungle
swift sinew
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okay so we're guessing, that's fine was just wondering if there was like an actaul thing that showed it

agile jungle
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Its not a guess. You can then find player 433

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And see their rating

swift sinew
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That's assuming that every character on the leader board is included, a ton of them have 0 score

agile jungle
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Zero score is counted, as far as anyone knows. If youre really crazy you can click previous page for like 5 minutes and find the lowest scoring player.

Coincidentally, if youre pushing for .5%, you definitely have time to do that while lfg

swift sinew
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But anyways, I'm 0.5% and I can get score from a 25 🤷 it's a bit of an outlier sure but I've got a lot more in the low 30s that would be score

agile jungle
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Which 25 out of curiosity

swift sinew
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It's the one you think it is

agile jungle
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Cithrels, I assume. There's a good reason if it is lol

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If you logged on looking for rating, would you choose a +23 start group and get them to do wraithtide into cithrels

swift sinew
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I mean my max unlock is 42 not 27, so would I do a 38 looking for score? Sure.

agile jungle
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Now now. Score is score, regardless of where it comes from. If someone with 32 unlocked should be willing to get +60 score (that doesn't change calculus) from doing something inefficient for them

What's special about you that youre beneath a score increase

swift sinew
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I'd do a 25 for score

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The complaint was, why should someone with 27 do a 23

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not why should someone with 27 unlock do a 6

agile jungle
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The complaint is about feedback loops, where people are trapped on other sides of a wall where there isn't a meaningful difference in difficulty but there is a significant time investment before the higher player gets something from it

swift sinew
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I'm saying that 6%, 9%, or 12% are pretty meaningful differences in difficulty

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How much bigger do you want to make those?
10%, 15%, and 20%?

agile jungle
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I think, gun to my head, 15%. A little less than double the current amount when a cycle is skipped.

swift sinew
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That's the normal cycle, so you want to have a 60% increase each time you get to a capstone?

agile jungle
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5% vs 3%, so 20% each time the same capstone shows up

swift sinew
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that's a pretty crazy number imo

agile jungle
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Is it really, compared to 12%

swift sinew
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yes?

agile jungle
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Remember while telling me this number is crazy that the devs intend you to fight bosses at +120%

swift sinew
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yes and you want to add another 20% on top of that

agile jungle
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No? I want the same target difficulty with fewer intermediary stops