#A summoner hero would be sick.

1 messages · Page 1 of 1 (latest)

dull light
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I can see people with some hand issues suffering with high apm required for pretty much everyone. Also i like summoners so if possible i wouldnt mind a hero that has summons preferably some that dont require us to do all the buttons presses for them to be effective. Would be a nice addition both flavor wise and possibly a nice thing for people that wanted a bit more relaxing gameplay or have legit health issues. Thank you

shy frost
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Play healer, with Tank-Helena premade.
Tank is your pet, you can voice control
And only thing you can do is just heal a bit

10/10 gameplay

dull light
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@shy frost i have played healer and clearly you have never played it. it is not a relaxing experience you are pressing keys off the cd nonstop. pretty much every single class has that experience and it is very taxing especialy for people with health issues

shy frost
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Huh? Healer easiest road to 10k

dull light
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you have clearly never played a healer @shy frost

shy frost
misty plover
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uh...

shy frost
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I guess my alt is not real WHYYYYY

misty plover
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At what bracket are you playing healer where you think it is nearly as button mashy as any of the dps? lmfao

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Like is your whole party standing in things for the entire dungeon that you constantly need to heal? lmao

shy frost
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Anyways .

First post was clearly a meme. No need for random attacks lmfao.

Second
higher you get easier it is to heal (given you can manage expecter heal checks )

Low level dungeons are just chaotic with damage intake , but oh the other hand.
If mental is strong, and no panic mode activated.
You are chilling.

Remember motto, can't heal stupidity

misty plover
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Im not totally against having a "summoner" character added at some point, but to think it needs to be low apm just because it has pets is a wild take

craggy root
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Your ask is for a summoner to avoid apm? That's weird. Sylvie is a summoner - she summons plants that act as heals and dots.

An ask for a lower apm healer is fine but isn't a ) really needed and b ) not specific to summoning.

A summoner class may very well be high apm depending on how it's built.

dull light
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@craggy root yes and thats why i specified preferably without too many buttons to press and manage to be effective. just let me chill and honestly summoners are a cool concept.

craggy root
spare ether
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The main question is would it be a mass sumoner like a necromancer or something with a big pet that does most of the damage

craggy root
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For example rift has a summoner healer, but they did it well and it's not actually lower apm. Your abilities just proc from the summon.

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Most modern examples of summoners aren't the d2 do nothing approach. It's just as spammy but now it's run through summons

dull light
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you seem to not read the part where it specificaly said no high apm -.-

craggy root
dull light
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@craggy root where was the part i said im strugling with ? read that out for me ? i said multiple times it would be nice if the game had anyone who doesnt need to press abilities literaly off cd every time to be effective. so far we got none

craggy root
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Sounds like you're having a hard time keeping up then. The ask for a lower apm healer is basically just an ask for an easier play. Which suggests you're struggling.

I'd say meiko is highest apm, and even she isn't particularly hard to play.

Neither healer feels particularly high apm. That can you can optimize with better weaving for both isn't a bad thing.

dull light
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@craggy root you are one very weird person. i have never said i want extra healer in the game i said summoner and i said that even healers have to press buttons of cd to be effective. i never even specified sylvie you did. learn how to read and stop living in your head

craggy root
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No I know - you're having a hard time following the conversation.

Ok.

You asked for a summoner. Someone joked healer was like that.

Sylvie is also, wait for it. A summoner.

But your specific ask is for a summoner archetype because it's cool. We agree.

You ALSO want a character that's lower apm. That's what I'm focusing on as being weird.

Now. Try your very hardest to engage with the things being said. Or, whatever, don't. Summoners are cool. They don't have to be low apm.

dull light
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@craggy root Sure... you are correct.

craggy root
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K, good talk.

agile anchor
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asking for a class where you don't have to press buttons very often and thinking it would be ok to make it do the same damage as people who actually press buttons is kinda wild, ngl.

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but for real, if people have health issues that cause pain playing keyboard games then i think the answer is an ergonomic peripheral, not creating a one off character that can bot their way into eternal. i feel for people with disabilities and i think they should be able to play games, but creating a character that is basically a bot isn't the way to go. the game is the game. they aren't going to make a character that negates the skill expression and efforts of the other heroes. accessibility might need to take another form.

craggy root
dull light
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well it doesnt nessesarily have to be completely afk experience. but more strategical in essence rather than button mashing like LITERALY every single character has right now

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Easy example would be the summons would be timed and you couldnt just summon them all at once maybe couple but not all and there could be tiers/types of summons, wich you could have one at the same time so you would have to get the correct one for the job but its not as spammy. also the talents would obviously impact these too and there could be even an option for build that actualy has high apm. there is no need to design heroes one dimensionaly. there is option to make different aproaches just by changing some talents or weapons etc. including even something as crazy as hero that is healer/dps and tank at the same time (with talents or stances making the difference) everything has its pro and cons.

I like summoner style where you watch stuff blow up and dont have to manage every little movement or spell/skill usage doesnt it need to be literaly the best hero in the game ? no? regardless it would be a nice addition for both people that like summoners and people that have some issues

agile anchor
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any game that is designed around a gcd is balanced around maxing gcd's. it creates decision making where losing the use of a gcd impacts your damage. what you are proposing is a philosophical change to class design. right now the dps loss in a class is pressing a less optimal button in that gcd and being unable to get that back. i'm sorry but you are proposing an idea that would add complexity that would actually add none. you are removing the skill expression of instant decision making. when you add in time to think between skill presses you remove any complication in decision making. every class has decision making in their rotation. every class is priority based. you are just proposing priority based but with more time to make the decision.

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and proposing a hero that can tank, dps, and heal all at the same time is absolutely not what this game is.

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i dont know when it started but at some point people stopped enjoying a game in front of them and looking for how they can change it into something else.

craggy root
# agile anchor and proposing a hero that can tank, dps, and heal all at the same time is absolu...

The game makes swapping heroes easy anyway.

If the game ever has 5 or more man dungeons, we may need to see some change in mechanics. For example, Sylvie has 4 flutterflies - that may not work out if there's a 10 man dungeon.

Accordingly it's possible a support class would be needed, that can somehow be set to doing multiple roles. I dunno how this would shake out running 4 mans, and this is all hypothetical future musing anyway.

agile anchor
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heros must be competitive with eachother. they aren't going to intentionally design a hero that is just worse to solve an accessibility issue. that's just not a thing.

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and from your OP its kinda clear that you don't have an accessibility issue yourself and you just want something simpler to play. not every game is for everyone. action rpg's might be more your style. or you could just press your buttons slower and get the less powerful hero with less apm that you are looking for

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i do like the idea of a full on summoner class though. that sounds epic. but just because you summon something doesn't mean you sit back and let them do everything. you still need to be involved.

craggy root
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High APM heroes should be balanced in other ways - for example, lower CDs so while they have to input more things, they have more options available at all times.
Lower APM heroes could then be balanced by having more restrictive CDs. If they screw up, they have fewer options. For example.

honest zinc
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Wow has vastly different APM for various classes and lower APM classes aren't necessarily easier to play

Screenshot_20251120_162429_Chrome.jpg
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(Then, 93 APM is way too much ihmo, and Fellowship is probably in the lower part of this graph already)

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Funnily enough, the summon warlock spec is the one with highest APM 🤣

craggy root
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Neat data.

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I think it's a good thing to have diversity of STUFF. Aesthetics, mechanics, challenges. But yeah, the point remains - high/low APM doesn't reflect challenge of play, or efficacy of outcomes (DPS/HPS, etc)

lucid tiger
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btw you can just block that sinkee guy, i read him in so many posts, hes always trolling and provoking and then doing the victim reverse card insulting others. hes a nuisance, noone would miss him on any discord if hes banned globally.

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and yes, summoner would be fun, even if he is a bit more active

shy frost
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Lmfao what KEKW

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Literally small joke at the start of the thread, and I'm being called out KEKW

forest trout
buoyant solar
swift forum
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That sounds like a pretty good idea. It would allow a more diverse group of players to join the game, and in the long run it would be a very healthy development for the game. Maybe this hero could be easy to play, but not to the point where everyone ends up playing them. For example, their maximum damage output could be set at 90% of a regular character’s. For players who are seriously aiming for the top of the rankings, this wouldn’t have too much of an impact.

To give an example: Mercy from Overwatch is a hero that lets many people who aren’t good at that type of game get into it. Once they become familiar with the game’s mechanics, they may then move on to more complex characters. In other words, if every character is mechanically complicated, it could easily keep a portion of potential players out of the game. Before getting into the very high-level Eternal content, Everyone would probably agree that the hardest stage of this game is the early phase when you’re not yet familiar with all the mechanics. If we can reduce the pain of that process, we can retain and attract more players.

fickle briar
honest zinc
agile anchor
# swift forum That sounds like a pretty good idea. It would allow a more diverse group of play...

diverse? the solution to disabilities isn't dumbed down hero design. they have peripherals that assist with that type of thing. and really all you are doing is intentionally designing a bad character that will do less damage instead of just letting them play existing or correctly designed heroes, press their buttons less often, and end up with the same result. please do not waste time designing a character that like 0.01 of the player base wants. and please stop arguing for things assuming other people will want them for certain reasons, that's a logical fallacy. stick to why YOU would want them and that's fine.

swift forum
# agile anchor diverse? the solution to disabilities isn't dumbed down hero design. they have p...

I'm not a native English speaker, so if my mention of diversity made you think I was only referring to players with disabilities, that's probably because I wasn't precise enough in expressing myself. What I meant was a more diverse player base in general—reaching and engaging more kinds of players, not just one group.

If you look at SteamDB and Twitch viewer numbers, within just one month after release, the number of active players has already dropped by more than 60%. If the game peaked at more than 100,000 players, maybe this wouldn't be such a concern, but clearly that's not the case.

That's why I think the idea of designing a different kind of character is actually an interesting proposal—it's really just about that simple number. Of course, you can argue that this might not actually help, and we could just focus on servicing the "remaining core players." I don't have a problem with that, since that's your perspective. I just think this might be a direction we could learn from other successful games.

craggy root
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NGL, as a parent of an 8yo, I have a bias against your name dude, and am glad af my kid wasn't ever really into Cocomelon.

I don't think we should overly pay attention to steam numbers. It's a data point, but not a super meaningful one. Literally every game experiences a drop off after release. I think Fellowship is in an incredibly solid place, having used their first month to mostly bugfix and balance pass, with new content communicated as coming soon. I think it's incredibly normal for a game like this to see a huge influx of players, and then a gradual drop off as people deplete the content, rinse, repeat. PoE and Last Epoch see exactly the same thing, for example.

I do agree though that more heroes and more dungeons will be good needed. A summoner mechanic is a commonly loved approach. Separately, the request for a lower APM hero is a fine one, though I think it needs to be balanced appropriately. To repeat my point above --
High APM heroes should be balanced in other ways - for example, lower CDs so while they have to input more things, they have more options available at all times.
Lower APM heroes could then be balanced by having more restrictive CDs. If they screw up, they have fewer options. For example.

fickle briar
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A drop of 60% isn't even spectacular. Even AAA/long franchises experience number drops like these after initial release

craggy root
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Hopefully in a year, we'll open this game and have like 20+ heroes and dungeons to choose from, bettering queuing/LFGing, etc etc.

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Fellowship has a pretty winning approach. For example, Overwatch (2?)promised PvE modes, and failed to deliver, and a lot of players were pissed. If Fellowship can steadily deliver new heroes, dungeons, and general stuff, I think they'll have a very successful long term game.

dull light
craggy root
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Wow, really looping back to and doubling down on not being able to follow the conversation there bud huh.

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Despite quoting me quoting myself from before you tapped out of the conversation for not being able to respond to the things I'm saying, no less.

agile anchor
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APM is this buzzword people latched into from competitive non-gcd based games. APM in a GCD limited game is only increased by off GCD things which are just some limited cool downs or utility. It's all relative in a game like this. APM isn't anything in this game. It's almost negligible. What people seem to be proposing is a class where you can go multiple gcds without pressing something and that is just not what this game is.

dull light
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@agile anchor and yet there are skills that even ignore GCD and honestly why do you care that someone could play more relaxed gameplay ? do you have a beef against people that dont want to press buttons every second ? honestly

craggy root
# agile anchor APM is this buzzword people latched into from competitive non-gcd based games. A...

Everyone agrees 'summoners are a cool aesthetic'. Everyone else also agrees that separately and unrelatedly higher and lower APM requiring heroes are a fine mix to include in a games designs, with appropriate balancing being appropriate.

The two being entirely unrelated though remains something Wulfos doesn't seem to be able to respond to.

That Wulfos also won't clarify this want beyond "because it should be easier", makes this conversation not much of a conversation.

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I'm not really interested in slapfighting with you Wulfos, like I said two days ago, if you want to engage in the points made, feel free.

dull light
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@craggy root you seem to ignore the part that summoner class makes the most sense to be lower apm. also you are especialy ignoring everything and literaly trolling ? that is why i stoped arguing with you because you are clearly trolling or so dumb that you dont even realize what you are writing means. i will not argue with someone who is literaly uncapable of following theyr own sentences

agile anchor
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Propose to me any scenario where you can take multiple gcds to press a button and not make it the most skilless braindead hero imaginable. Yes I object to supporting this mindset that skill shouldn't matter in a game and I object to designing a hero that can only do 90% of another heros damage because they don't require any skill to play. Now you've just eased all that character development on a class no on can play competitively.

dull light
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@agile anchor easy. if you press a wrong button you are locked out of meaningfull damage/heal/survivability for a while. your mistakes are more pronouced same as your correct plays

agile anchor
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Ok, explain to me what that interaction would look like. What are the buttons. How would it lock you out?

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Cause your statement is so generic. Say something where that scenario would ever happen.

craggy root
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you seem to ignore the part that summoner class makes the most sense to be lower apm
I do not agree, and previously noted several games which have Summoner archetypes that are still very high APM. That's why I think it's important for you to try and think outside your familiarity on this matter, and note that we are not specifically disagreeing with your ask for a Summoner asthetic, nor are we specifically disagreeing with your desire for lower APM heroes (again, when balanced appropriately).

That said.
also you are especialy ignoring everything and literaly trolling ? that is why i stoped arguing with you because you are clearly trolling or so dumb that you dont even realize what you are writing means. i will not argue with someone who is literaly uncapable of following theyr own sentences

You are very reactive, and very incapable of engaging with this conversation like an adult. I will again repeat the point that if you want to engage like an adult, with the things being discussed, feel free to. I have no interest in a slapfight or tantrum though, so, if you're able to take a breath and respond to the things actually said in response to the things you are saying, feel free. Otherwise, I'll keep my discussions with the reasonable people in this post.

craggy root
# agile anchor Ok, explain to me what that interaction would look like. What are the buttons. H...

Right, as noted -
Meiko is high APM, low CD. So she has tools available all the time, but it takes high APM to juggle them, and it's more about managing uptime of things.
vs someone like Sylvie who kindasorta has more abilities with longer CDs, and it's more about managing her CDs.

I dunno how the different heroes compare APM wise though, other than Meiko being high APM. My sense between vigour and sylvie is both are pretty equal in APM, maybekinda?

dull light
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@agile anchor you pull a pack of 50 monsters and summon 3 single target summons that deal only single target. 1 is timed 1 is semi pernament /pernament and 1 is ultra summon or w/e The pernament one you can maybe switch with some time usage (cast time) the timed one would put you into cds on the other timed one and the ultra summon would block any other ultra summons so you wasted alot of time with switching one correct summon and the rest locks your cds so you cannot fix your mistakes. One is couple of seconds the other one is a bit more and the last one would be minutes yikes

fickle briar
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If you play any game like this right you're spending almost every GCD. Always. Unless you're out of fight.
So your apm is simply 60/gcd + movement. That's why APM in general is a bad measurement for games like these. We are not playing RTS here

agile anchor
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So your skill expression is being smart enough to realize you are fighting multiple mobs instead of 1? Or to not fat finger an ability. Do you fail at tying your shoes in the morning too?

craggy root
dull light
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@agile anchor im sure you never did a mistake you propably never played a meiko and only did correct plays all the time. you also know all the scenarious in the game and never wiped

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i dont think meiko is nessesarily harder to play rather harder to get used to early. since you need to remember the correct sequence @craggy root but its nowhere near complicated such as invoker in dota 2. that would be an example of hard character. but currently in the game she is propably the hardest char and im playing her and sylvie btw those are my 2 mains

agile anchor
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But Meiko is GCD and combo driven. If you have all the time in the world to press a button or think about what is coming up you won't make those mistakes. That's the problem.

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You can't remove GCD based combat and still be complicated

craggy root
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As a pedantic disagreement, I don't think Meiko is hard, I think she just requires more different manual inputs that Helena. Meiko's toolkit isn't particularly more involved or complex, it's just that a host of ablities require two inputs to execute.

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A Helena that doesn't know what's coming is going to do worse than a Meiko who isn't ultra fast at inputs but does know what's coming, for example.

agile anchor
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If I'm cooldown based and I don't get an option to press that button for another 5 seconds, I have 6 seconds to think what the right button would be.

dull light
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@agile anchor yes but if you do a mistake you are getting mega punished and mistakes are also using your abilities to early or too late not just using it wrongly and there are also other abilities that could tie to it. if you do your wrong input then your rest of the kit could suffer. id argue that low apm could be harder to play because mistakes would be giga pronoucned. instead on high apm you do a mistake you do suffer but you can quickly remedy that mistake because you have no cooldowns or reasources

agile anchor
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You like the sound of your idea and your words but you aren't thinking about the practical application. Most people can make a rotational decision within a GCD. You are somehow thinking that they will still make mistakes given multiple gcds to decide an input. I'm telling you that scenario doesn't exist, or that person probably forgets to breathe multiple times during the day...

dull light
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you have clearly not played enough outside of your bubble. @agile anchor you might actually be a good player but trust me there are people that do not play at the highest level all the time. i myself am above avarage for sure but even i do mistakes ALOT. an easy example is with meiko i wanna upgrade my ability (kick) i just kick instead ETC. am i mentally incapable of breathing ? i dont think so because i can also do the rotation perfectly but sometimes i do a mistake probably multiple times even. On sylvie my most repeated mistake is using my abilites too early or too late or more flowers than i should... and yet i am at 6k rating and eternal 1 was the most smoothest experience ive ever had

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Heck i would even argue and go so far to say at eternal my experience was the easiest because people actually know what the f is going on. (with sylvie, i am not there yet with meiko)

agile anchor
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I think you are fully capable of breathing. You clearly are capable of reading. You keep using Meiko as an example to support how easy it is to make a mistake, but you applying GCD locked play to support a model where you are arguing the skill expression of non GCD locked rotations. Reread what I said. If you design a class that has less actions than gcds you remove the difficulty of decision making.