He is very durable no matter what I build.
#How can I deal with Tahm as adc?
pastel flame
twilit patrol
He is very durable no matter what I build.
He tends to favor hp heavy build earlier in the game and ports in resists later. So beyond getting LDR for the % pen, BotRK is worth considering as your lifesteal item over alternatives and otherwise you generally want to build optimally for DPS for the given champ. Don't expect to have a fast TTK against him unless you have a giant lead or it's endgame w/ full builds (and even then, if your team lacks magic damage, enemies stacking ar+hp items can be hard to deal with).
gentle cargo
dont build bork if u arent kog or vayne varus
crit characters lack damage early in general
hes designed to be a meatball thats just how he is
twilit patrol
dont build bork if u arent kog or vayne varus
Plenty of other ADCs can consider the item situationally against enemy comps that will itemize lots of health. It basically goes into the lifesteal slot replacing BT or another LS item (only need 4 items for 100% crit, so even with boots and without the upcoming botlane quest, you have 1 free slot for something else)
gentle cargo
Plenty of other ADCs can consider the item situationally against enemy comps tha...
bt has so much mroe ad and lifesteal bt is always better on other champs
twilit patrol
bt has so much mroe ad and lifesteal bt is always better on other champs
This is maybe true on ADCs that don't itemize much or any AS, like Caitlyn and Lucian, but for ADCs that build more of a mix, like Xayah, and Kai'Sa. In fact, Kai'Sa's on-hit build includes BotRK as a core item (2nd).
It really comes down to enemy hp levels and how much synergy BotRK has on the champ in question. In many games, BT is the better buy on, for example, Tristana, but if the enemy frontline is like Mundo+Tahm+Sion, BotRK is going to be a way better LS item for that game due to how well it fares against multiple hp stackers in the enemy frontline.
gentle cargo
It really comes down to enemy hp levels and how much synergy BotRK has on the ch...
bro i have never seen mundo tahm sion on the same team
yeah theoretically if their team is 5 hp stackers its a better item
but tristana and kaisa are more about burst/diving
even if there were those tanky targets youd just ignore them and ult to squishy with your standard kaisa build
nobody even goes on hit kaisa
xayah would probably still prefer bt aswell in that game unless you're buying the botrk 1st item which is the only way i can imagine it slotting in (besides 5th)
as a rule bork is more of a bait item on every champ that isnt exclusively on hit 95% of the time
twilit patrol
but tristana and kaisa are more about burst/diving
Depends, Tristana can be played that way, but she also works just fine playing a safe front-to-back style and this is actually more reliable in a lot of cases. As for Kai'Sa, on-hit isn't a burst setup (that's usually the heavy AD+crit Collector etc. type setups on her), on-hit is more her tank/frontline-busting build (which is smart in some games, depends on your game). No ADC in bot lane should really go BotRK first anymore, even Kalista and Vayne prefer Kraken Slayer to BotRK first now unless you intend to still build 100% crit on them (which you can, but on-hit is usually better for both). BotRK is a mid-to-late game anti-health stacking item lifesteal item. BotRK 1st made sense when the item passive was giga-busted for years (12% current on melee, 9% current on ranged was nuts and very obviously imba to me). You would generally itemize BotRK 4th item (after 2 crit items, one of which is IE, and LDR/MR for % pen unless the enemy has 0 armor items, and/or you're very fed, in which case you can delay the % pen to 4th item and go LS 3rd).
gentle cargo
yuntal/er (prob yuntal if ur planning on bork) ->ie (required) ->er/ldr (required)->navori (required) -> bork
half of the reason people go botrk is for sustain in lane
there are very few cases where traditional crit characters build botrk and you cant really slot it into kaisa because you want your evos so you need to go kraken and you need guinsoo cause its broken and if you ARE going FULL on hit (which is just worse in 90% of games probably) its still annoying to slot in
twilit patrol
half of the reason people go botrk is for sustain in lane
This was one of the only reasons to ever rush this 1st item, and it just isn't strong enough currently to justify that (item is pretty inefficient as a 1st item compared to better options)
gentle cargo
im just saying botrk isnt good enough to even worry about the itemization for playing against one frustrating champion
twilit patrol
there are very few cases where traditional crit characters build botrk and you c...
W evolve is entirely optional, which allows for Kraken->BotRK->IE
gentle cargo
you need guinsoo bro
twilit patrol
getting the AD components of BotRK is after KS is enough for Q evolve as well, which is nice timing
gentle cargo
if you're going crit bt is better 99% of the time
twilit patrol
if you're going crit bt is better 99% of the time
probably more like 80% of the time
gentle cargo
people play so many carry champions that it ends up not being worth to even think about
twilit patrol
and that's also dependent on the ADC in question. This isn't a hard comparison, you can run the math and determine at which hp level, BotRK should reliably outperform BT for damage
twilit patrol
like it's 40 AD instead of 80, so you need the passive giving you at least 40 dmg on average (across 100-0) for it to be worth
gentle cargo
its 25 ad brotha
twilit patrol
botRK is 40 AD, 25% AS
gentle cargo
shit i have arena in my head
twilit patrol
not had 25 AD for a very long time
gentle cargo
still pretty bad and it has to be some niche scenario
twilit patrol
tbf, I actually prefered to old 25 AD, 40% AS stat balance for the item
gentle cargo
and even in games where you CAN build botrk going for ap build is probably better to assassinate
its just a fake item if ur not melee bro
twilit patrol
6% current hp is roughly 3% max hp over the 100-0
twilit patrol
so 3% of hp=40 happens which max hp=1,333.(3)
gentle cargo
stats are poopoo and its hard to slot in to most champions
twilit patrol
armor reduces flat phys damage as well, so it's a moot pt
gentle cargo
its just a niche item that you barely have to worry about man or you're an on hit champ that wants lifesteal
twilit patrol
1333 hp, I'll be generous as say until enemy backline has this or more hp and frontline has 2k+, BT would outperform BotRK for damage
gentle cargo
you get the ad to scale w abilities and shield instead of just the on hit dmg
twilit patrol
(granting AD ratios and such)
BotRK passive also has really nice synergy w/ Kai'Sa innate % missing damage
I remember when she was newly released, people were trying to figure out how to slot that item into builds on her and no one really got it
I figured out a way back when Muramana was undercosted af (2500g and OP because of it)
then more recently, Kraken Slayer gave another way to fit it in with good evo timings
gentle cargo
just not better than traditional build into ap or crit
twilit patrol
Ap on Kai'Sa is really overrated
gentle cargo
unless you are in some niche scenario which doesnt matter
twilit patrol
only good AP I ever saw was the Muramana+AP Kai'Sa build the Koreans figured out like 8 years ago
and half of what made that good was Crown of the Shatter Queen being a great anti-burst item in a meta full of burst
gentle cargo
if there are squishies standard build into dcap void staff isnt bad
otherwise crit scales better than botrk and makes more sense
twilit patrol
Best way for Kai'Sa to pop squishies is actually with heavy AD and Q evo
twilit patrol
if you know how to abuse positioning it shouldn't be split much
gentle cargo
its more the fact you can harass squishies with w and insta pop passive when you engage if you go nashors which incentivizes you to go more ap
525 range character so if you can do more than just auto you are actually going to be useful
twilit patrol
plenty of ADCs with 525 range or less are plenty useful autoing as well
Q AD scaling is actually crazy good w/ evo
twilit patrol
Kalista is 525 range and mostly autos
gentle cargo
so a champion with infinite dashes, a champion with a very short cd dash after navori and a champion that can chain autos and doesnt need to overreach with their autos that happens to get 500 ms
even kalista would love to have kaisa w evo
to have some poke presence
twilit patrol
W evo is way more valuable in ARAM than SR
even there, though, sometimes on-hit is just better (kraken->etc. core)
gentle cargo
at any dragon or baron fight/standoff and contesting mid waves
kraken guinsoo terminus is the only core that seems reasnable
twilit patrol
terminus is a pretty meh item imo
gentle cargo
rest of the items are just hot ass and youd be better off going crit or ap after that
its literally the best or 2nd best item on kaisa 🙏
twilit patrol
item WRs are hard to read because they are heavily context dependent
gentle cargo
not even talking about wr
hybrid character that likes attack speed
likes hybrid pen with attack speed
twilit patrol
If you go Nashor's I could see it being good, otherwise her damage split is like 80-20 phys-magic
and LDR is going to be better in practice there
40% that's always on v. ramping 10-20-30%
gentle cargo
yes crit is better thats already what ive said
but for your hypothetical on hit build
twilit patrol
The thing is, with the KS->BotRK->GR core, you can get basically anything for the last 2 items depending on need
(often % pen 4th item is a good move with this)
twilit patrol
I think you'd be surprised how well KS+BotRK is as a 2-item spike on her
and having those together when GR hits as 3rd item is actually kinda gross
gentle cargo
just not as good unles again you are in stupid niche 3-4 tank scenario
twilit patrol
I mean, this is testable in practice tool
gentle cargo
not realistically
twilit patrol
nice thing about ADC core itemization is like 90% of it is DPS optimization.
gentle cargo
all these things have missing hp or current which u cant rlly do in practice tool and compare them to how you would traditionally play a fight
twilit patrol
all these things have missing hp or current which u cant rlly do in practice too...
you can adjust resists and hp of test dummy
gentle cargo
just not realistic
twilit patrol
not hard to ballpark enemy stat levels for 2-items, or 3-items
gentle cargo
guinsoo is her strongest item and kraken is needed for evo
not a difficult assumption
twilit patrol
Guinsoo's is an on-hit multiplier item
and you don't get enough AD with just KS+Pickaxe to get Q evo btw
gentle cargo
you do
twilit patrol
not unless you start D-blade and even then, you have to get enough levels
gentle cargo
why would you not start dblade
twilit patrol
you can skip d-blade and get faster tempo to KS with bork path
gentle cargo
u trolling bro bye
twilit patrol
LS+3 pots is often better, especially if you need to outlast early lane
or v. heavy pressure.
gentle cargo
me when im in a hypothetical competition and my opponent is frightening
twilit patrol
You also gain tempo towards component and item completion powerspikes
which can be very impactful for getting ahead in lane
gentle cargo
mild pumice
u trolling bro bye
bro ngl i see the vision
if u want some more lifesteal and/or ur autoing hp-stackers a lot, it makes some sense
imo the biggest problem isnt that your spike is weaker, but that you're delaying rageblade + terminus/nashors/3rd item of your choosing, since that goes so hard on kaisa
am i red-pilled
gentle cargo
if u dont go dblade ur getting shit on in lane
twilit patrol
if u dont go dblade ur getting shit on in lane
Not sure I buy this, maybe if you don't run Legend: Bloodline (this is a really underrated rune from that set)
Kai'Sa has one of the highest early game base hp's of any marksman, so the +80 from D-blade isn't likely going to decide your lane
Also, you could just go BotRK 3rd if you really think Guinsoo's 2nd is better (tbf, I did some testing in practice tool and was a bit surprised at how much damage Guinsoo's 2nd could produce)
the synergy between those 3 items and Kai'Sa's own kit is really strong
mild pumice
Not sure I buy this, maybe if you don't run Legend: Bloodline (this is a really ...
on average it will definitely lead to a significantly weaker laning phase. dblade gives hp but also a not-totally-insignificant amount of lifesteal. long sword + 3 pots can give a lot of power before your first back, but will really fall off after you use them since you'll just be down 80 hp and some free sustain.
gentle cargo
especially considering kaisa already has a shit lane
unless u have better engage supp
i agree btrk can be good in niche situations but also they arent that common
and its hard to fit into the build
twilit patrol
on average it will definitely lead to a significantly weaker laning phase. dblad...
Yea, this is why I mentioned Legend: Bloodline
twilit patrol
i agree btrk can be good in niche situations but also they arent that common
I am definitely not claiming it's an every game situation, especially for ADCs that don't traditionally build it or on-hit more generally.
But I do think people are underestimating how good of an anti-health stacking item it is, it's especially strong against Heartsteel users.
mild pumice
Yea, this is why I mentioned Legend: Bloodline
okay but then you're screwing your early game even harder, trading alacrity, the more early-game rune, for bloodline, which scales better
gentle cargo
bloodline barely does shit till like 10 mins
twilit patrol
bloodline barely does shit till like 10 mins
same is true of the 2.5% from D-blade tbqh
gentle cargo
same is true of the 2.5% from D-blade tbqh
u dont even get like 3% till like 8 mins in the game and it def does make a difference
mild pumice
same is true of the 2.5% from D-blade tbqh
it's surprisingly significant. If you auto on average 10 times a wave (last hits + a few extra), a level 1 ashe does like 70 damage per auto. over 3 minutes, that ashe is getting about 100 free hp just from autoing the wave infrequently. This isn't even accounting for the extra damage you get from leveling up, buying items, and autoing the wave and the enemy more.
its not huge, but over the course of the entire laning phase it definitely has an impact in a large portion of games
twilit patrol
u dont even get like 3% till like 8 mins in the game and it def does make a diff...
Long Sword start has 2 extra potions to bridge that gap+350g of tempo towards a good first base buy, it's a tradeoff and one that I find often works out pretty well, especially in more active lane matchups (D-blade is good in matchups where not much will happen except trading farm early, so you end up staying a lot time before your first base, which allows D-blade sustain to overtake the 2 extra potions.
twilit patrol
it's surprisingly significant. If you auto on average 10 times a wave (last hits...
Lets make this a bit more concrete: lets say 10 autos/wave is a fair avg. and 70 dmg is a modest estimate for early game AD. Then that's 700 damage/wave, at 2.5%, D-blade is giving you 17.5 hp/wave, with waves being every 30 secs, that's 35 hp/min, 2 potions is 240 free health in your pocket, minus the 80 D-blade gives and you're looking at the vamp passive needing to generate 160 to break even. I'd say this roughly takes about 5 minute of waves arriving (so 6:30+ game time) to make up the 2 potion advantage Long Sword start has in terms of sustain (it also has 80 hp, so maybe more like minute 5:30 in practice). Also keep in mind if the first few waves you don't take damage, then you're not vamping any usable hp. The fact that Long Sword+pots can come out ahead at 5:00 on the game clock is pretty significant given that's when Dragon spawns on the bot side of the map, if you have prio then because of the extra potion healing allowing you to gain the upper hand in the lane, that can potentially give a very big advantage. Nevermind, that if you have a more active lane, and take a base before Dragon, you're far more likely to have enough gold to complete a Long Sword based component than the enemy AD and this puts you at a item advantage for any potential dragon fight in this case.
mild pumice
if you're full hp and not using the vamp that means you were completely afk lvl 1, and the only time you should ever be completely afk lvl 1 is if the lane is unwinnable anyway. you're calculating autos per wave, but it also vamps from damage from abilities and damage on the enemy, which you should be looking for constantly. from this, and the fact that you'll actually likely be autoing more than 10 times per wave since you do so little damage in the first 5 min of the game, i'd say it's AT THE VERY LEAST on par with triple potion value by the time dragon spawns. there's also more value in having the immediate 80 hp from stats and 120 over 15 seconds than the 360 over 45 seconds.
you say you'd need to generate 160 to break even, but really that's only if you don't back, because by backing you generate up to full, giving you 80 extra hp of value from dblade's stats. having enough gold to complete a long sword component isn't a valid argument because dsword is one of the highest gold-to-value ratio items in the games outside of fully completed items.
according to your points, maybe you can possibly argue that you're very, very slightly advantaged for setting up for 5-minute dragon, but you lose much more value the rest of laning phase before 1 item, and even after it by not having one of the most gold-efficient items in the game.
in my mind, the only real points for taking long sword triple pot are explicitly the lvl 1-2 power in having 360 extra hp and a slightly earlier 1-item spike. that said, i don't think it's a good fit for kaisa, who'd likely have a hard time converting that lvl 1-2 advantage into a really meaningful lead due to her generally weak lane phase.
twilit patrol
It can also be really good for outlasting a difficult early lane (e.g. something that's hard to deal with level 1-3)