Champ Concept: 200 years

[vital orbit]

Passive: Ability casts empowers the next auto attack to gain increased attack range and then dashes into enemies, dealing increased damage

Q: A straight line stab that damages all enemies hit.

If an enemy is hit, grants self a buff that causes all nearby enemies to be silenced when they cast any abilities and silence is applied on individual enemies once per Q cast.

W: Does damage in an aoe around self and then after a short delay, Cleanses Crowd Control on self

E: Becomes invisible for a short while, gaining burst of movement speed while invisible and then gains attack speed when the duration ends.

Passive triggers partially refreshes the current cooldown of the dash by 50%

R: A straight line- global projectile that deals damage and silences all enemies hit

[tame cove]

every one of your concepts lack any sort of identity. the passive makes me think this could be a melee assassin, q kind of fits it, w is just I don't even know, e gives assassin mobility and survivability but gives attack speed which is questionable, and then ult is a global projectile?

[soft quest]

Q silence is probably either really OP or almost useless, depends on duration that you have that buff and/or radius in which it affects enemies as well. This champ kinda reminds me of Rengar, but at least if it has good burst it's not coming from empowered autos (this is why Rengar is broken, as NattyNat is proving atm in his Korea climb).

[burnt wharf]

why would you want a delayed cleanse

[vital orbit]

Because you can use it as an engage to start fights if your invis is down

[vital orbit]

It was originally a dash that makes him CC immune, everyone was outraged so I nerfed it into this

[vital orbit]

I just like attack speed cuz this champ is going to be a jungler

[vital orbit]

It's not even farfetched cuz it's inspired by Twitch E

[vital orbit]

The silence on an assassin is going to be unfun to play against. It's historically removed off of their kits cuz it's just that broken

Also I forgot to say that the silence only triggers once per cast but once is enough to burst Squishies down

There's a reason why W cleanse has a delay. It's meant to be cast early because it's a hit and run assassin with invisibility. Making sure that any CC soaked after leaving invis and oneshotting an enemy could buy this champ some time to go invis again.

The combo is E-AA-R-W-AA-Q-AA-E

[wet dust]

Cause it is an ability literally lifted from Dota 2, where CC can last as much as 7 seconds. In LoL this has no use.

[burnt wharf]

ic

[burnt wharf]

also +1 on this

how the fuck is this guy supposed to lane? cds? costs?

like you have no tools to work with and a bunch of fluff for the sake of looking unique

[soft quest]

Q if it's long enough reach/enough damage not excessively expensive would allow mid laning.

[vital orbit]

There's no delayed cleanse in Dota 2 as far as I remembered

[soft quest]

I think there's a hero that has one iirc but it's been a while

[vital orbit]

It's a jungler

[soft quest]

jungle assassins are usually a problem if they're not weak in some way

[burnt wharf]

I do not think giving a jungler an adc ult is ideal

[soft quest]

global on jg is problematic for it's own reasons (see Karthus jg for an example)

[burnt wharf]

forgot cactus existed but yeah fuck that

[vital orbit]

But his E is refundable and is his only source or damage in tandem with passive at level 1

[vital orbit]

Cactus LMAO

[burnt wharf]

ok cool what does that have to do with giving them jinx ult

or draven or ashe or whichever global ult you like best

[vital orbit]

Global silence

[burnt wharf]

which doesn't work with their kit at all and is disgusting to deal with

[soft quest]

issue w/ global on jg is the ability to alter engagements without being there. Violates a fundamental principle of how jungle as an early game role works

[vital orbit]

It's an a bit more flexible for a guy with less mobility than his peers

[burnt wharf]

make the cleanse immediate and give them an ult that actually works w/ their kit and isn't a random addition imo

that way they have some sort of target access without being turbo disgusting

[vital orbit]

It's not random cuz it combos with Q

Without it, he can't start fights

[soft quest]

I actually kinda like the delayed cleanse, I think it rewards players who can read fights well+it can be used to discourage enemy from using their CC at a key moment.

[burnt wharf]

I feel like they'd be far too easy to shut down if the enemy has a brain

[soft quest]

real key is tuning the delay and spell CD right

[burnt wharf]

i'm thinking of rengar cleanse for a comparison, he'd be unplayable if it was delayed

[soft quest]

It's used reactively

[burnt wharf]

i feel like this guy would play similarly, 0 target access if enemy has cc

[vital orbit]

This champ is used for burst bro which is meant to have a delayed cleanse

[soft quest]

Which is a different game entirely.

[soft quest]

So is Rengar.

[vital orbit]

Yeah but this guy has a more spammable invis than Rengo

[soft quest]

true, but no leap

[burnt wharf]

ok so you use your empowered auto dash to get to a target, you get stunned, cleanse the stun and now you're stuck doing nothing because you have 0 target access

how are they intended to play

[vital orbit]

That's why there's a global ult 🫠

[soft quest]

They can use the cleanse early so it times out like 0.5 secs after they land on their target, discourages the target from using their CC immediately

[burnt wharf]

far too inconsistent imo

[burnt wharf]

which then brings a whole bunch of issues regarding counterplay and fun

[vital orbit]

It's actually more consistent on a character that literally INVIS in and out

[soft quest]

Again, I think the ability is at least interesting and could be strong in certain situations. I'll admit I think it won't be the most reliable of CC escapes

[vital orbit]

Rengo has to waddle away. It's why he has double cleanse and both are instant

[soft quest]

Rengar is also a big balance problem but that has more to do w/ his burst being on empowered autos

[burnt wharf]

what's the cd on the invis? if you're going in/out with it

[vital orbit]

Like- Gwen E

[burnt wharf]

that means literally nothing gwen E has a cdr mechanic

[vital orbit]

Yes

[burnt wharf]

..?

[soft quest]

invis also has a CDR mechanic on it

[burnt wharf]

where

[vital orbit]

You can apply it multiple times even though it's just current cooldown

[soft quest]

"Passive triggers partially refreshes the current cooldown of the dash by 50%"

[burnt wharf]

the invis is not a dash

[vital orbit]

Passive Dash

[soft quest]

50% CD remaining CD refund on passive trigger (which is a per cast thing)

[vital orbit]

That is why the cleanse has a delay

[soft quest]

yea, this is Ambessa style auto+dash per cast innate here

which is actually way more sticky than Rengar is

[vital orbit]

Try giving this guy insta cleanse and this champ is never going to be counterable

[soft quest]

I am more worried about the Q silence making them uncounterplayable than anything else on this design tbh.

[vital orbit]

It's a basic CC on an invis assassin champ.

[soft quest]

silences are very strong CCs especially for burst champs

Because when the burst champ is jumping you is the exact moment you need to be able to cast shit to fight back

this is why Talon and LeBlanc both had their silences straight up removed without any real compensation

and they both were still fine actually.

[vital orbit]

I mean, both of them have real escapes and said escapes were instantaneous

[soft quest]

sure, they had other things going for them, so does this proposed champ

I'm even fine allowing R to still have a silence

because at least that's gated by R CD which is at least moderately long.

[vital orbit]

Q has tons of fluff that also makes it unreliable

[soft quest]

how so? Cast Q, use innate to jump them=they get silenced if they cast anything until they can get out of range->basically only flash can do that for them.

[vital orbit]

Yeah, and everyone have flash

[soft quest]

5 minute CD

they only have flash the first time you try that, then it's gone for 1/6 of a typical LoL game

Like you probably average less than 5 casts of Flash/game in real pvp games unless you're average game time is abnormally long

[vital orbit]

Q is the range of a Viego Q

[soft quest]

ok, so W or E to get in, then immediately Q, same diff basically

[vital orbit]

Fair but W is also the bulk of his damage

[soft quest]

That would be an odd place to put the majority of his dmg

Q makes the most sense imo

[vital orbit]

.

[soft quest]

The combo is whatever is effective and will change depending on context. This is true for any spellcaster, even if some combos are best 90% of the time.

E+Auto w/ passive+Q would probably be way better for killing people or even just getting winning trades in practice

[vital orbit]

Yes

[soft quest]

It's important as a designer to switch mindsets from 'what do I intend' to 'what will people do I give them this' when evaluating if something is a good idea or not.

[vital orbit]

That is fair

[soft quest]

Riot has made this mistake many times btw so it's an understandable one

(heck, Vi was supposed to be a top laner (LOL) but had an obviously better in jungle kit)

[vital orbit]

Yeah, and this champ is designed with jungle in mind

[soft quest]

Naafiri was supposed to be an assassin, but riot didn't give her any actual avoidance tools, so she functioned better built and played as a diver (and riot has finally acknowledged this and shifter her into being one properly now)

[soft quest]

I actually think designing a champ with a specific position in mind is not ideal and can harm the quality of the results

(I disagree with riot here on this). Imo, their best designs in the game currently came from the era when they tried to make a champion the 'best of version of themself' that they could while ensuring they weren't unfair to play against (i.e. something resembling balanced).

[vital orbit]

Yeah but this champ was designed with 200 years in mind, so I pretty much gave it everything. But knew that it would be too powerful so it had to be nerfed in some aspects to function

The older iteration, the W was actually a dash that is CC immune and Q is just a plain silence

[soft quest]

Yea, and I was fine w/ most of it, the Q silence is just very problematic for a burst champ to have (Talon's silence, for reference was a mere 0.25 secs and that was enough to make him a massive problem for every spellcaster in the game).

[vital orbit]

And R was Kharthus R but silence

[vital orbit]

.

[soft quest]

I mean the R and the Q silence on cast mechanics immediately reminded me of Silencer from DotA2

who for reference, is a ranged attacking hero (basically an ADC)

[vital orbit]

The theming is - what if the one shot champ had double silence?

[soft quest]

silences lowkey don't belong on high burst champs because they prevent counterplay

I can allow that rule to be bent on a suitably long CD (R)

[vital orbit]

Yeah, that's why the concept itself was toned down to actually have counterplay

[soft quest]

I think remove the Q silence idea and leave the rest as is and you have a solid champ concept

rest is tuning and numbers stuff (I think Q CD can be fairly short without the extra stuff too)

[vital orbit]

Q is fairly long like Lux Q

It's a control CC and I like it to be that way cuz it's a burst champ

[soft quest]

see I was imagining something more like old Syndra Q or a tad longer

[vital orbit]

I meant the cooldown

[soft quest]

but the CD is largely irrelevant to why it's problematic

having a basic ability level CD on a silence for a diving burst champ is exactly why Talon and LeBlanc were once mega OP

[vital orbit]

Talon and LB had better privileges than this guy

[soft quest]

I remember playing Season 2 Talon mid and winning lane hard almost every single time and then doing fed Talon things for the rest of the game

[soft quest]

Not really, you've given this guy more than you might realize

[vital orbit]

Talon wall jump exists

[soft quest]

old Talon didn't have that

His E was a enemy target blink (think kat E but only to enemy and no control over where around them you landed)

[vital orbit]

Oh

[soft quest]

and was also the silence btw

0.25 sec silence on that=Talon could basically delete enemy caster whenever he chose

[vital orbit]

Yeah but it's because old champs had overtuned numbers

[soft quest]

eh power has upward in LoL overtime, not downward

[vital orbit]

I meant some abilities hits like a truck

[soft quest]

Yes, Talon's R and W hit pretty hard (W is backloaded a bit)

[vital orbit]

Laning Gragas Q shreds 1/4th of your health on one of the clips I last seen

That shit was degen asf

[wet dust]

Slark's Q "Dark Pact"

[soft quest]

issue was more that access to mana regen meant you itemize to spam shit like that.

[vital orbit]

Oh that

It was a continuous CC immunity in exchange for health

[soft quest]

if anything, item pool was more broken in the past the champs less so

[wet dust]

?

[vital orbit]

Yeah, the items made champs hit like a truck

[soft quest]

AP was godly in season 1

[vital orbit]

He takes damage when the CC cleanse starts

[wet dust]

It is continuous cleanse

[soft quest]

Talon actually lacked good items in season 2 and was still a menace

[vital orbit]

Yeah which basically is just CC immunity

[soft quest]

(AD casters in general had dogwater item choices back then; it's why OG Riven was so giga-overtuned)

[vital orbit]

Cuz it literally just happens split second

[vital orbit]

The privileges you have to have in order for you to even remotely viable

[soft quest]

I am saying Talon had trash items back then and was busted despite that

like part of why they straight up removed the silence and he was still OP after was because he was finally getting some good item options

(this was season 3, shortly after league of cleavers iirc)

Crazy thing was, Talon was busted before league of cleavers happened and almost no one noticed

[vital orbit]

I mean, that was a time where everyone didn't have any mobility at all

[soft quest]

eh, there dashes not as many

[vital orbit]

Yes

[soft quest]

Kassadin and LeBlanc were beta/S1 designs iirc

and they are still among the most mobile champs in the game.

Xin was a S1 design and prototype for the diver class

(which lots of those were added to the game over the next season)

[vital orbit]

That shit was the most busted thing that I have ever witnessed

[soft quest]

oh yea, OG Xin Zhao deservedly got the nickname: Winz Nao

[vital orbit]

Frankly none can beat him if he was reverted now

[soft quest]

naw

his current version is actually better than OG in most respects

[vital orbit]

I mean resettable stuns bruh. Gwen cannot do shit

[soft quest]

also, lets not forget that there have been global resistance and health buffs to all champs as well

current xin Q works the same way.

[vital orbit]

Every single one of his spells, were reduced. Constantly instead.

Dashes, stuns, you name it

[soft quest]

(current Xin is actually really strong)

[vital orbit]

Except Ult

[soft quest]

I miss the old W

[vital orbit]

He was building tank so it's kinda busted

[soft quest]

I really dislike having his AS steroid on his E now instead of W.

[soft quest]

No one really knew how to itemize well back then, and even today lots of people are building current Xin wrong.

[vital orbit]

We're in on a tangent, I'll find a way to remove the silence part

[soft quest]

Just take silence off Q and leave the rest as is and it's fine

[vital orbit]

So a spammable passive in exchange for utility?

[soft quest]

rest is numbers tuning. (TBH I could see this champ being playable mid if Q CD, dmg, and cost are tuned right

[vital orbit]

Q would be a ranged ability instead if I'd want him to be a midlaner

[soft quest]

I was imagining something like Pantheon channeled Q but maybe only half that range

[vital orbit]

Current Q is like- melee for balancing reasons

[soft quest]

I think letting it have like 400-500 range would be ok and allow mid as another position

(this is with silence gone entirely, nothing in it's place)

[vital orbit]

Would it be fine if I shift the attack speed away from invis into Q?

[soft quest]

I like it on invis tbh

[vital orbit]

With the ranged Q in mind

[vital orbit]

Someone said it's questionable

[soft quest]

if on Q, then you have to contend with the duration of that AS v. Q CD which limits options for that spell

[vital orbit]

Though I replied to him

[wet dust]

Cause Kassa was a 1:1 copy of Anti Mage. Most direct copies still remain the same

[soft quest]

I think AS is fine there because you can then tune their all-in to rely on also getting in autos in addition to the spells

[vital orbit]

I mean, AM is the most balanced assassin in that game even though his mana drain is cancerous asf

[soft quest]

(which expands counterplay window against them)

[vital orbit]

Yeah, cuz it's more of a midlaner now so I'd want his burst off

[soft quest]

AM imo is very weak in modern DotA2

[tame cove]

I think the passive already encourages auto weaving

[soft quest]

True, it does. AS makes this quicker+it will linger after spell combo is done so you have some DPS for a bit to finish harder targets/if they dodge something

[vital orbit]

Passive: Ability casts empowers the next auto attack to gain increased attack range and then dashes into enemies, dealing increased damage

Q: shoots a projectile that damages all enemies hit in a circular area. If an enemy is hit, gains attack speed.

W: Does damage in an aoe around self and then after a short delay, Cleanses Crowd Control on self

E: Becomes invisible for a short while, gaining burst of movement speed while invisible

Passive triggers partially refreshes the current cooldown of the dash by 50%

R: A straight line- global projectile that deals damage and silences all enemies hit

[soft quest]

is this invis like twitch Q or Akali W?

[vital orbit]

Akali W

[soft quest]

That was what I was imagining.

[vital orbit]

Akali W is a continuous shroud of invisibility though

[tame cove]

e is also a dash?

[soft quest]

no, but you get passive

[vital orbit]

E is not a dash

[tame cove]

oh passive is the dash?

[vital orbit]

Yes

[tame cove]

maybe just me but if we are still trying to make an assassin this champ will struggle with finding flanks

[vital orbit]

That was the point on my original iteration

[soft quest]

I actually think it's better if this champ is kinda like Lee Sin: part assassin, part diver

[vital orbit]

I TONED it down

[tame cove]

still the champ should be able to go over walls

[soft quest]

if passive dash is long enough range, they can

[tame cove]

passive would need to be a pretty long dash

[soft quest]

I'd be fine w/ it being Rengar leap range (without the bush needed) since it's gated by CD

[vital orbit]

This is his latest iteration

[tame cove]

what I was thinking too

awkward part is you would need to cast a spell to be able to jump

[soft quest]

W is good for that given how it works

[vital orbit]

His current iteration is untouched for shelving purposes

[tame cove]

you lose the aoe damage though

[soft quest]

dmg could be delayed til the cleanse goes off imo

[tame cove]

that could help

[vital orbit]

Yeah, we could do that since the current iteration has been changed from a jungler to a midlaner

[soft quest]

I could see current one being able to play both positions

[tame cove]

the ult is a bit weird for the champ

[soft quest]

I doubt it would be strong enough at brawling for top or able to deal w/ 2v2 lane well enough

[vital orbit]

Old iteration was a Kharthus R but silence

Old W iteration was just a dash but CC immunity

[tame cove]

I think it should be some sort of ability to help with damage

[soft quest]

R would also give another way to trigger passive to go in and have them silenced while you do it

AoE dmg and silence is actually quite strong

[vital orbit]

Yeah

[vital orbit]

This is his current iteration now, with Frightning's only suggestion

[soft quest]

I like the R because it's not what you expect for an assassin/diver but is a versatile ability that can still directly help with their main job

[vital orbit]

I had input for it ofc but it was more so because I didn't want the midlaner to be cancerous in lane

[soft quest]

Like I'm imagining Ez R size/speed projectile with no lengthy cast animation (like Ashe R)

[tame cove]

in it's current state the champ looks like a stat stick, I can't really see much skill expression

[soft quest]

W, E and R all have skill expression with them

[vital orbit]

Q once was but removed for balance reasons

[soft quest]

Q is also still technically a skillshot

granted it's like Yas Q1/Q2 levels

[tame cove]

assassin abilities should probably be harder to hit

[vital orbit]

It's now ranged with attack speed

[vital orbit]

That was what was the jungle iteration was intended but the mid/jungler one is a bit less bursty since I'm considering how fun it would be to lane against

[soft quest]

the passive also adds a lot of skill expression in general

You could, for instance, use E and move in an unexpected direction to avoid a skillshot, then use W->passive to go in, etc.

like this isn't Riven levels of complexity here, but it's not a Garen level stat stick either.

I'd say it's maybe slightly less complex than Ambessa/Naafiri levels?

maybe even comparable to Naafiri.

Yunara lowkey just about plays herself for example

[vital orbit]

I mean, that's what you'd expect on a traditional ADC

[soft quest]

eh, somewhat, we still have ADCs like Ezreal, Lucian, and Vayne that are quite skill expressive

[vital orbit]

All of them are ad casters 🙁

[soft quest]

Vayne is not

[vital orbit]

I guess but she's the exception to the rule

[soft quest]

Aphelios is decently skill expressive (very knowledge heavy too)

[vital orbit]

Yeah

[soft quest]

Caitlyn is quite skill expressive

[vital orbit]

I mean, it's because Yunara's goal have been bleeding out to death

People wanted a traditional ADC

And hers is something forced to meet the status Quo

[soft quest]

Yunara lacks any single thing that makes her worth picking over other existing ADCs. IMO that's her main problem

[vital orbit]

She is still a versatile pick

[soft quest]

Ashe has her beat for versatility overall. If you want good kiting and AoE, Sivir has her beat. etc.

[vital orbit]

She's my favorite ADC release and she's what I think of when I make champs. Her and Hwei

[soft quest]

Hwei is pretty well designed

Yunara's passive has the problem of trying to combine two things that you can't do both at the same time: critical hits, and on-hit damage

Like apart from Runaan's the item pool just doesn't support doing both on-hit stuff and crit stuff at once

[vital orbit]

As I said, she's a bleeding champ.

She's a champ inherently designed with early game in mind BUT everyone screamed for a traditional ADC

[tame cove]

i made a post on this and you were the only person who ever responded 💀

[soft quest]

XD

[vital orbit]

So she's an early game champ with late game numbers

[soft quest]

I am usually good at gauging new champion designs since I played all 5 roles and like 100 different champs

[vital orbit]

Which is absolutely sad

[soft quest]

ranged attackers basically can't be early game champs because of how their item system and how attacking stats work

[vital orbit]

Her toolkit screamed Snowball btw and they didn't give her a semblance of an early game

Which is fucked up because I think of her every time I design champs

[tame cove]

imo her design was a fail because yunara fails to bring anything unique to the team compared to other adc

[soft quest]

eh, I feel more like she is meant to be a power-farmer

the way Q works enables her to farm faster than a lot of ADCs (but again, Sivir does this better)

[vital orbit]

She relies on her ultimate and her ultimate has a cooldown. Unless if she had lux levels of an ultimate, she can never scale. It's like the Twitch problem all over again

[soft quest]

eh, she is quite functional without R, though obviously better during it

[vital orbit]

Both of those champs CANNOT scale because they're ult reliant but they have to because they're "ADC"

[soft quest]

her R reminds me of how Zeri R works

Twitch scales just fine, and he's a monster with a lead.

[tame cove]

they designed her q to be worse at waveclear

with the 8 stack, 2 stacks on champ rule instead of just ashe q

[soft quest]

Many ADCs have about 0 waveclear

so having any is already an advantage in that respect

[vital orbit]

I don't mind Yunara, but she needs an early game buff and a weaker late to compensate to actually be an actual champ

[soft quest]

Also, with some attack speed, 1 stack per minion is fine, it will be stacked plenty fast

eh, it's not a power curve problem imo, the kit is just mechanically too conservative and lacks any tools that will make her stand out from other picks.

[vital orbit]

Yes cuz her kit is bleeding

She's the personification of irl people's obsession

If she played like an MF then that would be nice for a balance perspective

An early game ADC that can still scale

[soft quest]

MF's early game is mostly due to innate and Q

and even then it's not that strong really. Lucian is the most early game ADC in LoL and even he still scales pretty well as a caster ADC

[vital orbit]

Yeah and Yunara can have the same thing on her W. But she needs some buff to put her power budget in it

Take her Q utility for all I care but put everything on the W basket

[tame cove]

i think this is a product of the community constantly crying about over loaded kits

[vital orbit]

Yeah it's the obsession that made her to be her rn

[soft quest]

Perhaps, maybe also riot had crazier ideas on the table and decided to see what happens if they went with the 'safe' option

tbh, I was amused by all the belly aching over Ambessa's kit

I knew it wasn't going to be as OP as people thought.

[tame cove]

imagine if jinx got released in this season, "omg she has 5 billion movement speed and attack speed on take down, passive more words than old udyr passive, lmao another reset champ, q gives her caitlyn range but aoe" like ppl overblow everything these days

[soft quest]

lowkey yea

[tame cove]

people are allergic to "reset on takedown"

[soft quest]

Ambessa's only strong rn because of R passive effects and to an extent W shield size

[vital orbit]

Frankly it's why my design had less restrictions despite people thinking that I am ragebaiting

Somehow

[soft quest]

Eh, tbf, I think this design concept is overused

[tame cove]

if it works, it works kind of thing

[vital orbit]

Yeah but not everyone has the privilege for it. Last time I checked, only Samira and Viego has it

[soft quest]

sure, but be more creative if you can, we like interesting and diverse champ designs here

[vital orbit]

I meant the newer designs bruv

[soft quest]

Kat literally has this as part of her innate (technically 10 secs off CD, but it's functionally a reset for basic abilities

[tame cove]

i think it's good because

1. rewards players for killing enemies (so rewarding good gameplay)
2. it's just fun

[soft quest]

Pyke R exists.

[vital orbit]

Yeah but she's ancient

[tame cove]

god i remember when ppl complained abt aurora w having reset on takedown

[vital orbit]

Can be counted on my two hands in a game with 150+ champs

[tame cove]

and u look at it and it's the shortest dash ever with only a second of invis

[vital orbit]

All reset champs aren't a lot in the game so it feels so weird that people gets overwhelmed despite the limited number of champs with access to such a powerful mechanic

[tame cove]

like if it didnt have that text i think it would genuinely be the worst ability in the game

[soft quest]

reset on takedown is a kind of 'win more' mechanic

[soft quest]

eh, there are things far worse than a dash on a long CD

[vital orbit]

I don't mind it cuz if they don't win more, they do jackshit later on

[soft quest]

reset on takedown is just the latest iteration of the '3-hit passive' meme in a way

[vital orbit]

I like 3 hit passives

[soft quest]

I like them too, but they were definitely being overdone for a while there

[vital orbit]

https://discord.com/channels/125440014904590336/1424302329686921227

This champ has a 3 hit passive

You don't know how much I think that old Kayle was cool, just needed a better Q. But they basically made her worse in every single way LMAO

[soft quest]

I dislike the Kayle rework

[vital orbit]

I was like- wow what a waste of a FUCKING unique character

[soft quest]

OG Kayle was best (though hybrid itemization is also now mia, which is a problem)

[tame cove]

personally for me, i think the only time it was overdone was when they just put it on akshan for fun

[soft quest]

I think the Q was fine, issue was mostly the riot watched a Kayle in pro 1v5 and get a quadra in one game and decided that she was an illegal design off that

(it was a deserved quadra because enemy came at her stupid during her R)

[vital orbit]

Yeah but people didn't like the point and click slow. So why would they go out of their way to butcher her?

[tame cove]

old kayle was so goofy looking compared to current kayle

[soft quest]

sure, it could've used a nice VU

[vital orbit]

Just give her a fucking skillshot instead

[soft quest]

but functionally the kit was fine

[tame cove]

i agree, old kayle kit was fun

[soft quest]

eh, target Q was fine imo. If anything I think LoL could use some more point and click abilities

[tame cove]

perma e, and murder them

[soft quest]

btw, OG kayle was viable in all 5 roles

[vital orbit]

Occasionally, my concepts have been "what if this champ had old Kayle mechanics"

https://discord.com/channels/125440014904590336/1424302329686921227

This was one of them but I have made 10 so far

I swear it's how much I wanted old Kayle back

[soft quest]

I also miss old Xin (new ult can stay) and especially old Quinn

[tame cove]

old quinn?

[soft quest]

old Quinn was such an underrated design, probably the most unique ADC lol has ever had.

[vital orbit]

Plez read my new Kayle

[vital orbit]

Yeah it was Quinn and the bird before they reworked the name to be just Quinn

Quinn and Valor*

[soft quest]

name has always been Quinn, but the old R was actually so cool

[vital orbit]

Champ spotlight had Quinn and Valor in it

[soft quest]

saddest thing was: when they announced the rework for her coming soon, she was finally starting to find her place in the meta

they legit could've just not released the rework and she'd have been fine

I also miss old Irelia a ton, new one is a cool champion design, but it could've been some new champ

[vital orbit]

Current Quinn could've been a new champ cuz it's honestly a cool as design like- what if this champ was a living personification of a ward in champion form

[soft quest]

current quinn lowkey shouldn't exist

that R is gamebreakingly good if you know how to abuse it.